dragondream-ing

[dragondream-ing]

ASOIAF fandom is so funny why are you reading a fantasy novel series and getting mad at me because my favorite character is the magical dragon queen who wants to make the world a better place and end slavery and not Sex Offender Rick of House McMansion and his wife, Lady Brunette. And then they try to claim that I’m somehow oppressing them for this.

Dany antis are just. Weird, frankly!

[dragondream-ing]

the "stark sisters uwu" crowd loves to project themselves into this fictional sibling dynamic so much. every post they make is "my sibling and i used to hate each other but now we love each other... so that's why arya and sansa would do the same... so totally normal sibling behavior" (sorry not sorry, but nobody cares about your own relationship with your siblings)

Arya was one of the first characters created. Sansa came about as a total opposite b/c too many of the Stark family members were getting along and familes aren't like that. Thus, Sansa was created; he ended by saying they have deep issues to work out. (source)

that's what grrm said about their sibling relationship, what part of d e e p i s s u e s is so difficult to understand?

[dragondream-ing]

Laena Velaryon & Rhaenyra Targaryen

Artwork by penginius

[dragondream-ing]

yeah overthinking prophecies is the mind killer but i have to say my piece re azor ahai, that is, if it's really meant to be one character, then the best narrative choice is dany. not only because she fulfills every word of the prophecy an entire book before we even learn of its existence. but also "no one ever looked for a girl," aemon tells us. in-universe her gender precludes her from being imagined as the saviour figure and on a meta level even the readers don't think the 16 year old girl with this much power (dragons) will be allowed to keep that power and fulfill an important narrative destiny as a hero of the story. the expectation is that the character will be brought low and/or surpassed by the classic warrior hero archetype of jon. which is why i think dany being AA is the most subversive choice. and would actually make jon the red herring.

[dragondream-ing]

Basically, the post I sent you says: "Aegon wanted to replace Sunfyre", "Aegon didn't care about Sunfyre", "Aegon didn't grieve for Sunfyre", "Aegon just used Sunfyre".

Okay, cool, but what's this (I'll write you the piece of text from the book / Fire and Blood this person took) : "but her Grace refused them both. She was adamant on returning to Dragonstone. There she would find a dragon's eggs, she told her lovalists : she must have another dragon, or all at lost."

And obviously it's tagging anti Rhaenyra and pro Aegon II.

So I wonder what you think about that ?

The difference between Rhaenyra and Aegon for me is that Rhaenyra only decided to look for the dragon from the Syrax eggs when all else was really lost. She had no gold, no crown, no throne, she had to sell the crown to return to Dragonstone, and she believed that all she had left was Aegon II. She did not look for a replacement in the form of "a new, better Syrax". The TGs praise Aegon II and Sunfyre's bond so much that it's no wonder people suggest it was more of a one-sided bond. Sunfyre was undoubtedly very faithful and loyal. But Aegon II was literally looking for a "better, stronger Sunfyre". He wanted a new, better model.

Rhaenyra needed another dragon. Aegon wanted to upgrade Sunfyre. "Not Silverwing," said His Grace. "I'll have a new Sunfyre, prouder and fiercer than the last. Which clearly implied that Sunfyre was not enough for him. That's why people don't blame Aegon for wanting a new dragon, but emphasize that he simply didn't deserve such a strong bond from Sunfyre, because right after his death he was looking for a better model.

But nothing will surprise me. People from TG can argue that Syrax can't be gold in the show, because ONLY Sunfyre can be like that, and by suggesting that Syrax can be like that too, we do it out of jealousy and want to take away what is good in TG. For them, Sunfyre is the only golden and best dragon, only Sunfyre is golden… And when I remind them that Viserion was also golden in the books, they get offended or become silent 😂

And seriously, Sunfyre may have been the most beautiful dragon at the time of the dance, but Viserion definitely dethroned him afterwards. I won't forgive GoT for what they did to his design in the series.

[dragondream-ing]

They can’t expect Team Green cast say stuff like “Aegon is the rightful heir because men come before women in the line of succession” or “she had sex outside marriage and children born out of wedlock and this is why she shouldn’t be queen” to promote their characters. We live in 2024 and they aren’t supposed to talk like far-right extremists & men’s rights activists.

Most Greens use this stuff as justification so of course they expect the actors to do the same.

[dragondream-ing]

Dragons going extinct because of misogyny is actually crazy when you think about it and then hundreds of years later a little girl being the one to bring it back is so poetic like Dany really is the one.

[dragondream-ing]

“I don't have anything against Olivia”

Glad to hear, I don’t care what team or ship you support going after actors is where I draw the line.

“she is doing her job”

Exactly, she was given a script by HotD’s PR team and she embraced it fully but the script’s clearly been changed because what she’s saying now is very different to what she was saying a few months ago. Before it was all “Alicent’s scared of Criston”, “she doesn’t like Aemond”, “she wants to reunite with Rhaenyra” etc. only a few interviews ago Olivia was the unofficial figurehead of Rhaenicent, focusing on this relationship more than Team Green. In fact she was going out of her way to distance Alicent from this faction.

The recent video is a completely 180, now she’s openly pro Team Green. They’ve drawn a line between the two groups and I think it has a lot to do with the fact HBO put out feelers on public opinion and noted Rhaenicent wasn’t popular.

People want to see a civil war between two opposing factions, not a poorly written soap opera that doesn’t follow the books.

I mean, Rhaenicent was never going to be very popular given that:

1_ Their friendship lasted five minutes before Alicent betrayed Rhaenyra.

2_Their relationship is not book canon.

3_Daemyra is canon

4_They replaced Laena with Alicent.

Most of the book fans were never going to give a fuck about Rhaenicent. The general audience can't even stand adult Alicent and their relationship consists on five episodes of Alicent abusing Rhaenyra in contrast of the five minutes their "friendship" had on-screen.

[dragondream-ing]

Barristan 🤝 the slaves 🤝 Daenerys breaking the slavers' peace

"Your gods are far away, Ser Grandfather," said the Widower. "I do not think they hear your prayers. And when the Yunkai'i send back the old woman to spit in your eye, what then?"

"Fire and blood," said Barristan Selmy, softly, softly.

For a long moment no one spoke. Then Strong Belwas slapped his belly and said, "Better than liver and onions," and Skahaz Shavepate stared through the eyes of his wolf's head mask and said, "You would break King Hizdahr's peace, old man?"

"I would shatter it." (ADWD, The Queen's Hand)

~

Daenerys Targaryen was wed, the guards on the pens had told them, laughing. She had taken a Meereenese slaver as her king, as wealthy as he was noble, and when the peace was signed and sealed the fighting pits of Meereen would open once again. Other slaves insisted that the guards were lying, that Daenerys Targaryen would never make peace with slavers. Mhysa, they called her. Someone told him that meant Mother. Soon the silver queen would come forth from her city, smash the Yunkai'i, and break their chains, they whispered to one another. (ADWD, Tyrion X)

~

"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass. (ADWD, Daenerys X)

[dragondream-ing]

"i cant watch season 2, alicent and her kids dont deserve this, and this war never needed to happen, the author should have let cole and alicent fall in love and leave court, with herself and her kids alive, and leave the throne to ex best friend, and groomer uncle husband"

This kind of comment kills me.

Already, in the book, Alicent does not have the type of ambiguous relationship she has with Cole in the series and she is even less Rhaenyra's best friend / ex best friend. We're not even going to address the case of Daemon being a groomer, this person obviously doesn't even know the definition. Because Daemon is not a groomer, book or series. On the other hand Criston Cole in the book can easily deserve this title ironically.

But whatever it is, this person speaks as if it wasn't Alicent who got herself and her children into trouble all by herself !

Show or book for that matter !

Certainly, in the show, Otto is implicated as a big influence that he wasn't for Alicent in the book, but that doesn't take away from the fact that as an adult, Alicent began to make her own own choices, always determined to usurp the legitimate heir, during the 10 years when her father was not with her at court, thus ending up plunging the kingdom into war.

Like... this person forgot that Alicent is partly responsible for the war ?! Book and show ?! Or is she ignoring him on purpose ?!Did Alicent and her children not deserve this war? Are we talking about the woman who actively participated in triggering it ?!

I'm hallucinating... The TGs are really really crazy.

Alicent is partly responsible for the war? Alicent is (along with her father) the main person responsible for the outbreak of the civil war. Initially, Aegon didn't even want the throne, either in the book or the show. The kingdom did not demand Aegon on the throne. No one except the Greens planned a coup.Daemon and Rhaenyra were not planning a war. If her brothers were to die, they would already be dead. So why should Alicent, who was primarily responsible for the war and the deaths of her own children, have a happy ending away from her own mess o.O? Some people really are weird.

[dragondream-ing]

team green discourse is so wild because on tumblr it’s “alicent was a victim of rhaenyra’s MENTAL ABUSE because rhaenyra did not tell the truth about her son’s parentage” and you’re like ok someone has a victim complex they’re projecting onto fictional characters moving on and then you get to team green TikTok and they’re making aegon ii edits to hitler speeches and then you’re just like. oh.

[dragondream-ing]

People will really come out with takes like, "The main theme of the Dance of the Dragons is that war is pointless," and then pat themselves on the back for their mEdIa LiTeRaCy.

Ugh the utter arrogance and cowardice of pseudo-intellectual "centrism" that for some reason always ends up tipping to a certain side is too common a stance for both real life and fiction.

Alicent wasn't discarded by the men she chose to surround herself with for no reason. Jaehaera didn't eat spikes for no reason. Aegon III wasn't rescued from Peake's clutches by his half-sisters for no reason. And the reason certainly wasn't simply that "war is pointless."

[dragondream-ing]

“Davos would have given much to know what he was thinking, but one such as Velaryon would never confide in him. The Lord of the Tides was of the blood of ancient Valyria, and his House had thrice provided brides for Targaryen princes.” — ACOK, Davos I

Aenys I & Alyssa Velaryon.

Daemon Targaryen & Laena Velaryon.

Aegon III & Daenaera Velaryon.

Daenaera’s character is referenced in the main series (before F&B) when GRRM talks about three Velaryon brides. She existed long before Jumphaera & whether that non canon fanfic goes into Aegon III’s reign or not, Daenaera is his queen and the mother of his children.

ACOK came out in 1998 btw, so Daenaera was clearly already conceptualised then. GRRM had two decades to change his mind about her character before publishing F&B, but he didn’t because she’s important to the narrative. COPE.

Thank you, anon. Doing the work!

[dragondream-ing]

If TG wanna hate Targaryens and Daenerys, fine! Just stay consistent in your hatred. Stop stanning the Greens, they’re Targaryens and never once refer to themselves as Hightowers. Stop comparing your favs to Targaryens. Say goodbye to “my ship is just like Jaehaerys and Alysanne or Aemon and Naerys” and “my faves are like Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya.” Stop wanting your faves to have dragons, I thought they’re weapons of mass destruction and nuclear bombs ? Stop giving them elements of Daenerys’ storyline, her quotes, titles and traits. No more “I’m no ordinary woman, my dreams come true” for Helaena, no “mother of dragons” titles for Alicent and Elia, no more “my fave will ride one of Daenerys’ dragons!” Stop stanning House Tully, Baratheon and Tyrell, they owe their relevance to Aegon the Colonizer, they are literally collaborators with a colonial government per your own arguments! Stop wanting Jon to be the son of Rhaegar, he was a colonizer who cheated on his Italianx wife, stop basing your arguments on Jon being Azor Ahai on the basis of being Rhaegar’s son, stop fantasizing about him riding a dragon or wielding Dark Sister. Stop wanting your favs to sit on the Iron Throne, that’s a Targaryen creation, and by the way they should not rule the Seven Kingdom’s either, this state was created by House Targaryen, let Westeros decolonize and go back to being seven backwards regions going to war under the smallest pretext! Stop stanning Young Griff, he’s a Targaryen and canonically doesn’t mention his Martell mother. Stop whining about the deaths of Jaehaera and Helaena, they’re Targaryens, shouldn’t you be happy that there’s two less ? Stop watching HOTD and don’t watch any future Targaryen centric prequels. Stop shipping Rhaenicent, one part of this ship is literally someone you consider a nazi colonizer whose ancestors genocided Westerosi, why would you want her anywhere near your pure Andal favorite ?

The truth is that the Targaryens are the coolest house in ASoIaF with some of the best characters and Targ antis know it.

[dragondream-ing]

I find the women as victims so fascinating, it’s definitely not only a Got or Hotd issue, I read an essay in college(I hope to have a link) about this topic, it was something like giving the misogyny in our society men writers and general audience have problems to write or identify with female characters unless they make them suffer or being abused so then they can give them power and agency as a prize,that was the gist of the essay, and I think that’s exactly the problem with Sansa,Alicent,etc they had to make Alicent an abused bride child so them and the audience can sympathized with her when she wanted to gain some power at Rhaenyra’s wedding for example.

I also find this topic fascinating and the entire discourse over House of the Dragon really got me thinking hard on this.

Women as victims is a very fine line. Generally, as a whole, me personally, I really really dislike watching sexual violence in cinema or television. I don't like it, period. I think it is mainly torture porn and there are very few instances when I don't consider it one. That's why I had such a big problem with the Handmaid's Tale and I never watched it, for that very reason : seeing women in such horrendous circumstances being raped and beaten and victimised continuously in order to provoke feelings of horror and disgust to the audience is not my thing. It is not nuanced at all, and I hate that. I don't see anything empowering in that. I don't feel more feminist, I just feel broken. But ok that's the topic of the Handmaid's Tale, it's not for everyone.

Now let's go to more controversial adaptations. Alicent and Sansa are two women who weren't raped in the books. In the show they were. I don't understand why people like that, and what is so exceptionally feminist in drowning in despair at the thought of it. All these tumblrinas that are obsessed with Alicent wouldn't be so obsessed if she wasn't a ChiLD BriDe (she wasn't) and maritally raped by a reaaaally old Viserys with a rotting body. But being a victim of sexual abuse is not a personality trait. That's my problem here. This is not real life. This is fiction. In fiction, a character needs to have a purpose and an impact in the storyline and they should be judged for that impact. If a character is reduced to being a victim, they have no impact anymore. I don't care about them, respectfully. The writers really reduced Alicent to being a child bride and a rape victim, and now any chance of assessing her character and her choices is gone. She's a victim, plain and simple. How can you talk about a victim? How can you judge a victim? How can you think critically about a victim? You can't. The only thing you can do is cry at the thought of her being victimised and scream at everyone who tries to attack her, which is essentially what her stans do. This is very, very, VERY bad media. This is not nuance, this is the opposite. Since the very moment you present one woman as a victim and nothing more, she's not a person anymore. She has lost the quality of a person (in the philosophical sense), she's just an abused woman ( I repeat that this is not real life, we're talking about fictional characters here).

It's the very opposite of a female-centric narrative. It actually annihilates women by reducing them to their victimised womanhood. Dany was sexually assaulted too, but that's not the focus of her story. Nobody likes Dany because she was sexually assaulted. Being a woman or a rape victim is not a personality trait. Women are people, not symbols of martyrdom.

I do believe the choice of making Alicent and Sansa rape victims in the show is a misogynistic choice for the fact that it debases the characters, and ends all possible debate on a character's actual personality and choices, which is the very reason why I'm watching this medium, to see characters act and make choices. (Again I don't believe real life rape victims are debased, or have no value, people, I am talking about fiction here). Especially in Alicent's case the consequences are very damaging : the big antagonist of the show being reduced to a rape victim, the protagonist of the show who wasn't a rape victim suddenly doesn't feel very justified in what she wants. She's spoiled, she's entitled, she's a whore. Why?

'Cause this one wasn't raped.

Imagine the implications of that thesis. Do I need to spell them out? Don't we see them everyday in the tags? Alicent didn't choose this, she was raped, she was forced. Rhaenyra chose to have sex that wasn't allowed. She deserves to die. She is judged for simply having a personality. She is judged for being a real character instead of a moving hologram for Tumblrinas wallowing in self pity. How can you win this argument? There is no argument to be made here. One was raped, the other wasn't, so the one who was raped is in the right. The other can burn in hell because she wasn't raped so she's a self serving whore.

That's a really really nice female-centric and feminist narrative. Congratulations to the whole team.

[dragondream-ing]

I find the women as victims so fascinating, it’s definitely not only a Got or Hotd issue, I read an essay in college(I hope to have a link) about this topic, it was something like giving the misogyny in our society men writers and general audience have problems to write or identify with female characters unless they make them suffer or being abused so then they can give them power and agency as a prize,that was the gist of the essay, and I think that’s exactly the problem with Sansa,Alicent,etc they had to make Alicent an abused bride child so them and the audience can sympathized with her when she wanted to gain some power at Rhaenyra’s wedding for example.

I also find this topic fascinating and the entire discourse over House of the Dragon really got me thinking hard on this.

Women as victims is a very fine line. Generally, as a whole, me personally, I really really dislike watching sexual violence in cinema or television. I don't like it, period. I think it is mainly torture porn and there are very few instances when I don't consider it one. That's why I had such a big problem with the Handmaid's Tale and I never watched it, for that very reason : seeing women in such horrendous circumstances being raped and beaten and victimised continuously in order to provoke feelings of horror and disgust to the audience is not my thing. It is not nuanced at all, and I hate that. I don't see anything empowering in that. I don't feel more feminist, I just feel broken. But ok that's the topic of the Handmaid's Tale, it's not for everyone.

Now let's go to more controversial adaptations. Alicent and Sansa are two women who weren't raped in the books. In the show they were. I don't understand why people like that, and what is so exceptionally feminist in drowning in despair at the thought of it. All these tumblrinas that are obsessed with Alicent wouldn't be so obsessed if she wasn't a ChiLD BriDe (she wasn't) and maritally raped by a reaaaally old Viserys with a rotting body. But being a victim of sexual abuse is not a personality trait. That's my problem here. This is not real life. This is fiction. In fiction, a character needs to have a purpose and an impact in the storyline and they should be judged for that impact. If a character is reduced to being a victim, they have no impact anymore. I don't care about them, respectfully. The writers really reduced Alicent to being a child bride and a rape victim, and now any chance of assessing her character and her choices is gone. She's a victim, plain and simple. How can you talk about a victim? How can you judge a victim? How can you think critically about a victim? You can't. The only thing you can do is cry at the thought of her being victimised and scream at everyone who tries to attack her, which is essentially what her stans do. This is very, very, VERY bad media. This is not nuance, this is the opposite. Since the very moment you present one woman as a victim and nothing more, she's not a person anymore. She has lost the quality of a person (in the philosophical sense), she's just an abused woman ( I repeat that this is not real life, we're talking about fictional characters here).

It's the very opposite of a female-centric narrative. It actually annihilates women by reducing them to their victimised womanhood. Dany was sexually assaulted too, but that's not the focus of her story. Nobody likes Dany because she was sexually assaulted. Being a woman or a rape victim is not a personality trait. Women are people, not symbols of martyrdom.

I do believe the choice of making Alicent and Sansa rape victims in the show is a misogynistic choice for the fact that it debases the characters, and ends all possible debate on a character's actual personality and choices, which is the very reason why I'm watching this medium, to see characters act and make choices. (Again I don't believe real life rape victims are debased, or have no value, people, I am talking about fiction here). Especially in Alicent's case the consequences are very damaging : the big antagonist of the show being reduced to a rape victim, the protagonist of the show who wasn't a rape victim suddenly doesn't feel very justified in what she wants. She's spoiled, she's entitled, she's a whore. Why?

'Cause this one wasn't raped.

Imagine the implications of that thesis. Do I need to spell them out? Don't we see them everyday in the tags? Alicent didn't choose this, she was raped, she was forced. Rhaenyra chose to have sex that wasn't allowed. She deserves to die. She is judged for simply having a personality. She is judged for being a real character instead of a moving hologram for Tumblrinas wallowing in self pity. How can you win this argument? There is no argument to be made here. One was raped, the other wasn't, so the one who was raped is in the right. The other can burn in hell because she wasn't raped so she's a self serving whore.

That's a really really nice female-centric and feminist narrative. Congratulations to the whole team.

[dragondream-ing]

Arya and Sansa’s relationship is only normal if your older sister’s boyfriend tried to murder you and got your friend killed and she decided it was all your fault because she thinks you exist to ruin her life lmao

Like it’s so dumb that the Stark girls’ tense relationship is reduced to Sansa calling Arya ugly and not a single mention of the Trident incident and all the moments afterwards. That’s where the actual complication comes in! And it’s in Sansa’s very first chapter no less!

Sansa disregarding Joffrey’s violence towards Arya because she’s predisposed to think of her little sister as a lesser person who deserved his wrath is an important part of the plot, babes. Her being able to ignore Arya’s pain is quite literally why she still thinks of Joffrey as her sweet prince right up until her dad’s head got chopped

Why are we asked to not comprehend both girls’ chapters just because it makes your fave look bad 😭