ethos-logos-pathos-blog

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

You've already mentioned this, but being able to teach a concept to someone (or something) has always really helped me learn it, even if I don't know everything about it. I would recommend trying to teach a friend over an inanimate object if possible though. My improvisational secondary (snake secondary) really likes to roll with the punches by trying to teach on the fly, so if you have a friend that would be willing to listen to you about your study topics, try teaching the subject to them. Encourage them to ask you questions about it, challenge your reasoning, and explain things in multiple ways so that you know you've got a really firm grasp on the concept. This might not work for everyone, and it might even sound intimidating at first, but I find it actually gives improvisational secondaries a chance to think on the spot, be a little creative, and flex their cunning minds.

Good luck studying, I believe in you!!!

What are some ways for improvisational secondaries to study that work?

Hopefully this isn't too vague to be helpful. Obviously studying different things is going to be different, but these are things that have worked for people you know, and hopefully should get the gears turning - because getting silly and messy is a great way to study.

Gamify it. Any game is your friend. If you're using Quizlet, study with someone so the two of you can compete.

Teach backs/rubber ducking. Explain the topic out loud to a teddy bear/other inanimate object with eyes.

Play Five Clicks to Jesus with your terms. Bring up the Wikipedia page for something you need to know about, and you have to find a way to get from that page to Jesus’ page in five clicks or less. 

(NB - You can pick an end-game page that makes sense with the thing you're studying, or something you know a lot about/are invested in. Or if you REALLY need to generate some interest: 'oral sex.')

Use the material you're learning to tell a story. Or pretend that you’re a character who needs to use this information later for some reason. (Costume pieces can be nice.)  

Get emotionally invested. Find an article/video on something you’re trying to learn that you disagree with and can get mad at. Start writing down the rebuttal to what they’re saying. 

Frame it as an investigation. Start out with questions you have about the thing, and dig until you can answer them. 

Watch the movie version. Note down all the ways it is inaccurate. (Online guides help with this) 

Use puns/jokes/stupid connections to keep similar words straight in your head

If you have to learn something that absolutely must be memorized, memorize it while doing something else - walking/exercising/doing the dishes.

Make your notes aesthetic. Pretty notebooks, pretty pens, illustrations, whatever you need. And then you can post pictures of your pretty notes online.

Light a Study Candle. That is pretty and smells nice and you only light when you’re studying.

Sit Someplace Different. Go to a coffee shop, or a park, or the library, and do your work there. You can totally get a second wind just by physically re-locating.

Personally, when I’m learning something or teaching myself something, first I watch multiple videos/read multiple articles that say the same thing in different ways. Sometimes I have them on in the background while I'm doing something else. I write down/copy paste anything that seems vaguely interesting. After I'm done with that, I arrange things in a way that makes sense, I especially like diagrams, arrows, and timelines.

And any Snake or Lion secondaries out there, please add on with what works for you.

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

bird primary + snake secondary

Hello Wisteria, this is a ‘please sort me’ ask :)

So I’ve got myself narrowed down to Idealist Primary and Snake Secondary. I’m very confident in my Snake Secondary, but I tend to flip back and forth on whether I’m a Lion Primary or a Bird Primary.

Some background information:

I was raised by two Lion Snakes which made for an… interesting household. While my mother has always been wholly, unapologetically Lion Snake, my father has a pretty strong Double Bird model that only really falls away when he’s getting down to business. His Snake Secondary comes out pretty often, but his Lion Primary is hidden most of the time. Unless - that is - you question a fundamental axiom of his, then his Lion Primary comes roaring out.

But, for the most part, my parents raised me to question everything. Curiosity, intuition, creativity, and open-mindedness were highly valued in my household.

I mean, what can I say. That sounds like a Lion primary household that really values Bird. I think you’ve read your parents very correctly.

For as long as I can remember, I’ve always been a questioner. As a child in school, I was a know-it-all. And as an adult, I’m still a know-it-all, but I like to think I’m a little more charming about it.

I like know-it-alls. :)

I do hold firm beliefs, ones I would fight for, but I don’t see them as immutable. To me, our knowledge of the world isn’t set in stone, and it feels wrong to assume any truth to be beyond reproach or exception.

So far this definitely seems idealist - but could go either way. Lion or Bird.

In order for me to accept an idea into my worldview, it has to hold up to scrutiny. Even views I instinctively agree with, I feel a need to argue against to ensure they’re right. The opinions and beliefs I do consider to be fundamentally true have withstood relentless examination and analysis.

And now you’re sounding really, REALLY bird.

But, I also don’t distrust my intuition and gut instincts. If I have a feeling that some opinion is wrong, despite there being no obvious falsehoods, I feel a need to explore that feeling. If I instinctively don’t agree with something, I dig deeper to find out why before either accepting or rejecting whatever I’ve been presented with.

Birds will often use 'gut instinct’ as one data point that they weight along with everything else when they’re making a decision. It’s not enough on it’s own… but it’s still something. That’s what this sounds like to me.

However when my deepest beliefs are questioned, I rarely feel personally attacked.

That would be a… pretty near impossible thing for a Lion primary to write.

Sometimes I’m baffled by how an individual could not understand things I find to be both logical and morally sound, but I don’t mind in engaging in discussion with them about their doubts. Although when I was younger, “engaging” usually meant ripping their “stupid” opinions apart with glee and stubbornly defending my own. As an adult, engaging with the opinions of others is a much more civilized and empathetic endeavor.

Sounds like a civilized Bird primary to me. :)

I also don’t mind incorporating new information into my worldview. I don’t shy away from acknowledging the truth of ideas I once considered to be false, as long as I believe they’ve been properly defended. It’s not painful for me to admit that someone I’m arguing with has made some valid points and that I’m reconsidering some of my own ideas.

Even the way this is worded, using words like “incorporated” instead of “added” really adds to the Bird primary of all this. This is something that you’re building consciously.

I feel like, as a child, I was a lot more Lion like than I am now. I’m not sure if that’s because I’ve created a Bird Primary Model as an adult with a more open worldview or because I really have always been a Bird and children are just naturally stubborn.

… or if it’s because Bird is external primary and you were living in a super Lion household. I’d be surprised if you *didn’t* have a more Lion worldview when you were younger.

Thank you very much for reading all of this and for taking the time to help so many people with their sortings on your blog! You’ve really offered so many people a way to understand themselves they wouldn’t be able to find anywhere else, and, personally, I believe reading through your blog has helped me grow as both an individual and as a member of the world around me (as corny as that may seem).

You are very, very, very welcome. That really makes my day. I like to help, and I live to think I *have* helped.

Anyways, I hope you have a wonderful day :) !

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

I could be completely off here, but to me this sounds a little bit more like your secondary is actually experiencing some burning? Or maybe these are some experiences that the system has yet to define or fully explore?

To me, it sounds more like you're starting to lose faith in the abilities of your secondary which, in Primary terms, we would call that burning.

You've recently been faced with challenges that your snake secondary wasn't able to overcome which doesn't sit right with you because usually we snake secondaries can work our way around anything. So you're wondering why all of the sudden, your secondary isn't working like it usually does. You're starting to think, "Maybe I'm not reading these situations quickly enough. I must be missing something. My face-shifting isn't working because I wasn't able to become exactly what I needed to be to get my way. Am I just missing opportunities for a cunning work-around or am I losing my charm?" All of those thoughts cause you to doubt the effectiveness of your secondary which is part of burning.

You're placing all of the blame on your abilities instead of realizing that sometimes, things just don't go the way we want them to, no matter how good we are at tipping the scale in our favor. As a Snake Secondary, I completely get this. Usually, I'm able to get my way in a situation (which I, of course, always try to use responsibly), and when I don't, I also usually start to doubt my abilities and wonder if there are ways to strengthen them and be more cunning next time. The truth is, sometimes the dice just don't roll how you want them to, even when you're playing with loaded ones; which, I think, is often how it feels to be a Snake Secondary in social interactions (like you're playing a game with dice loaded in your favor).

As far as exploding goes, if there is such a thing for secondaries, I personally think it would look more like someone who has completely disregarded their Primary in favor of reveling in their Secondary. For a Snake Secondary, I think it would mean a complete inability to, and perhaps fear of, entering into neutral mode. You would reject any limitations on your secondary. You would shift constantly, all the time, not to serve any specific goal or purpose but just because it made you feel empowered and thus safe from whatever made you explode in the first place. You'd probably be lying compulsively (possibly for the thrill) and manipulating endlessly because it would give you control. Your Primary would no longer have control over your secondary, so any moral compass you have would be thrown to the wayside. You wouldn't be shifting to in accordance with your instinctual moral compass (Lion), nor your built system (Bird), nor your community (Badger), nor your inner circle (Snake). That stuff would feel moot in comparison to the rush of control you'd feel by being able to let your secondary completely rule your every action. Exploding for Primaries is when you take a houses principles way too far, so for Secondaries, that would mean taking your methods way too far.

But, I also think that what @wisteria-lodge and @wyrdnis said has a lot of merit too. Perfectionism does seem like an issue that can exacerbate other sorting issues, rather than being a sorting issue on its own. And I've only seen secondaries talked about in terms of "hurting to use" (overuse, believing it's immoral or impractical). I think that you're starting to doubt your secondary's effectiveness which is causing something that sounds like a little bit of burning to me, but I also haven't seen this specific thing talked about a lot. So maybe I'm off on my assessment of this?

I have been asking myself lately if my snake secondary might not be a bit exploded. Because I feel like every conversation that goes wrong/not the way I want/doesn't feel good is my fault, and if I had just been better (at shifting, at reading the room, at spotting opportunities, at reacting 'right'), it wouldn't have gone so bad.

I know that according to the original post, an exploded snake is a Driftwood Slytherin, just reacting and rolling with the punches without any direction at all. But honestly? That's not so bad, is it? Sure, it's nice to go somewhere, but it's also nice to just react and exist in a space. Coincidentally, the term never gained much traction in the community, and there is hardly ever any talk about exploded snake secondaries.

And I think that's because it's not what exploding as a snake looks like.

Maybe I'm completely off here, and it's just a weird me thing. I am, after all, quite an analytical fellow with an almost pathological need to improve myself in any way I can.

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

Glory often also makes you somewhat of an authority. For Lion Primaries, this means their instincts now carry the weight of moral authority behind them, so not only are others telling them "you were right" they also get to tell others what right is.

Lions are happy when their society reflects their moral prerogatives, glory and power give them the ability to be the one ensuring their personal morality is being heard and upheld.

I think glory also appeals to Lions from a self-narrative standpoint. Most people see themselves as the underdog, and everyone loves to see an underdog succeed. So to young Lions, who probably see themselves in this light, glory is the culmination of their underdog story and holds a level of moral righteousness because "of course the underdog should be the one to come out on top! That's what's right!"

Talking with my sister (Lion/Badger) about Lion Primaries and glory-seeking, and she had the insight that glory is about getting positive credit and appreciation for your actions. In essence, it's about being told "you were right," which reinforces to the Lion that their internal compass led them in the correct moral direction. Of course, everyone likes being reassured that they're right (and everyone can desire glory), but this is possibly why it's so common in young Lions who are still learning to trust their feelings.

Then again, young Loyalist Primaries have different priorities (pleasing who is important to them), and young Birds generally can't take credit for their first system being right because they usually get their first system from other people...

Anyway, what do you think Lion Primaries? Does this sound right? Or is there another reason you think glory-seeking is associated so strongly with Lion Primaries?

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

This one confused me when I was younger:

WONT (pronounced like "want") - (n.) one's customary behavior in a particular situation; (adj.) (of a person) in the habit of doing something, accustomed; (archaic vb.) make or be or become accustomed.

"James, as was his wont, refused to listen."

"Simone was wont to spit out her vegetables."

"wont thy heart to thoughts hereof"

WON'T - (contraction) will not

"I won't go to bed!"

WANT - (vb) have a desire to possess or do something, wish for; (informal vb.) ought, should, or need to do something; (n.) a lack or deficiency of something; (n.) a desire for something.

"Valentina wants to win the race"

"Cici might want to be careful with her words."

"Lance was in want of friends."

"Danny wants French toast."

IT’S NOT ‘PEEKED’ MY INTEREST

OR ‘PEAKED’

BUT PIQUED

‘PIQUED MY INTEREST’

THIS HAS BEEN A CAPSLOCK PSA

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

(I'm still a newbie to SHC, but I'll throw my hat in the ring here)

I'm a Snake Secondary and Wisteria you may be right about this ask coming from someone who might actually be an Actor Bird. I think I'd need to hear a bit more about how they view their face shifting first though.

In my experience, there have definitely been times where I've spiraled thinking "No one really knows me. I'm always shifting, always wearing a mask. I rarely go into neutral mode" but when I'm actually face-shifting, it's not something I'm actively thinking about in that moment. Those are thoughts I sometimes have when I'm alone and feeling particularly depressed. And I think those thoughts have less to do with my Secondary and more to do with my personal struggles regarding my sense of self.

I sometimes think that I've built up this version of myself that's larger than life (imposter syndrome rearing its ugly head), and I worry that my friends are just drawn to me because of it, but then I'll go and spend time with them and recognize myself face-shifting in the moment and realize that it's all a part of me, it's all true to me, even when I'm lying. That might sound a bit nonsensical, but to snakes, masks aren't crafted, so much as grown (at least in my experience). It's like every new bit of information I take in, every new feeling I have, every new goal, changes the face I'm wearing instantaneously. It grows and evolves into what I need it to be for that moment. So, in that regard, it's very true to who I am. It's true to my desires, my strengths and weakness, and my knowledge of the situation in front of me. And my friends know this about me, they know I'm great at lying and smooth talking my way into getting what I want (we play a lot of hidden role games), and they see it as a part of who I am and as a skill-set I happen to have.

As far as having an inner circle goes, personally, I know that someone belongs in my inner circle once I've seen how they react to my neutral mode. For me, neutral mode is kind of a soul bearing experience. It's a relief at times, but it's also when I'm at my most unguarded and thus, my most vulnerable. If I'm comfortable enough to show someone my neutral mode, and they respond positively to it, then they're pretty much in. If they respond negatively, the masks are coming back up, and they probably won't be coming back down again.

Is it okay for a snake with bird primary to have no one fully in their inner circle since they're also snake secondary and behave differently with everyone, thus can't know if any of the potential-inner-circle-material people accept all of themself which is one of the criteria for being inner circle?

Hmm. Snake secondaries in the community correct me, but that... doesn't sound like how Snake secondaries think about their shapeshifting. Since the process is automatic, every mask you wear feels like *you.* If anything, that particular angst of 'they don't really like me, they like one of many parts I play' is more Actor Bird.

(and I dunno.... going by this mini-ask... that primary sounds preeetty constructed. I would look into Bird, both primary and secondary, as possibilities. You might be a Double Bird who looks like a Double Snake, like Blackbeard.)

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

GUEST POST: WHAT I LOVE ABOUT EACH PRIMARY & SECONDARY

BY BALERION6

I decided I wanted to make a post on why all the sortings are top-tier, but I don’t have an active tumblr myself, so I’m using you as a conduit. (Also, originally I was going to make a post about every individual sorting instead of just doing the primaries and secondaries, but I decided that was nuts and did this instead.)

Now.

WHY EACH PRIMARY IS GREAT

Badger: Y'all care so much, about so many people. It’s incredible how big your hearts are. Even if you’re burned, I know you want to care about everyone in your community, and that alone is extremely admirable. When Birds and Lions get too caught up in theoreticals and ideals, it’s Badgers who remind them that their actions affect people and bring them back down to Earth. When Snakes get stuck in a “my people vs. strangers” mentality, it’s Badgers who remind them that their people were once strangers too, and every person matters. Thank you, Badgers, for being true humanitarians, and for reminding the rest of us what’s really important.

Bird: Is there any pursuit more noble than the pursuit of truth? Not many, I should think. Birds are the people who face the harshest, cruelest truths this world has to offer–and don’t flinch away. Instead, you try to take those truths and use them to build something that will make the world a better place. You’re careful and deliberate and thoughtful with your morality. Lions have a reputation for courage, and deservedly so, but it takes its own sort of courage to hear your instincts screaming to do one thing and to choose instead to do the thing that you logically know is right. So thank you, Birds, for standing up for what’s right even when it’s difficult or painful, and for seeking the truth no matter how unpleasant it may be.

Lion: The world needs Lion primaries like a navigator needs a compass. Some people just know deep down in their bones that something is wrong, and they set out to right it no matter the cost. I guarantee that in every great social movement, there was at least one Lion who kept the fire burning and reminded everyone else why they were fighting even when all hope seemed lost. Your ability to stand up even when the whole word is trying to make you kneel is an incredible gift–as is your total inability to back down from what you know to be right. Thank you, Lions, for fighting the good fight in the face of all odds, and for knocking down the bullies and tyrants who stand in your way.

Snake: Ever gone to an animal rescue and had an animal immediately take a liking to you, even though the handlers say that animal doesn’t like anyone? That’s what it feels like to be a Snake’s person. It’s an amazingly secure, comfortable feeling. It makes you feel so special and loved. Snakes are safe people to be around because you know you’d have to fuck up pretty spectacularly in order for them to drop you. In that sense, no one is quite as trustworthy as a Snake. You guys take such good care of your people–and if asked why, you seem endearingly bewildered. “Of course I helped you; you’re my friend!�� Not to mention that you have an excellent sense of self-preservation that extends to your people as well; you remind the rest of us to stop and take care of ourselves rather than sacrificing ourselves endlessly for our ideals or our communities. If everyone was a Snake’s person, the world would be a better, more secure place. So thank you, Snakes, for your steadfast loyalty and the way you look out for the rest of us.

WHY EACH SECONDARY IS GREAT

Badger: At the heart of every community is at least one Badger secondary putting in the work. Communities just wouldn’t function without y'all. You’re the foundation holding up the whole thing. You just innately know what people need, and you give it to them, no questions asked. You can be almost TOO selfless, honestly–remember to take a break and care for yourself! You matter too! The community probably couldn’t last forever without you, but it will last long enough for you to rest and recover, I promise. And your consistency is so admirable. I wish I could just show up and keep showing up the way y'all do. Plus, the way you become whatever the people around you need you to be? Wow. It’s awe-inspiring. We all have a lot to learn from Badger secondaries. So thank you, Badgers, for taking care of us all and working your asses off every single day.

Bird: There’s no situation in which you DON’T want a Bird secondary around. Lost your keys? Don’t worry, your Bird friend learned to pick locks for fun a few years back. In a foreign country and don’t know the language? Not to fret, your Bird is amazing with languages–get them a book on the local language and you two will be conversational in no time. Need to negotiate something? It’ll be fine; your Bird has a persona just for this situation, plus a knowledge of exactly what the person you’re negotiating with wants. Bird secondaries are so cool, man. If they don’t happen to have a tool for a given situation, that’s okay–they’ll just use the tools they do have to build something new. Thank you, Birds, for always pulling something out of your back pocket when we’re in a pinch.

Lion: In a world full of people with ulterior motives, your honesty and directness is SO refreshing. With a Lion, what you see is what you get. There’s no secondary more trustworthy than a Lion. You can count on them to do exactly what they say they’ll do, every time, and that’s worth a lot. Plus your tendency to take the most direct possible path makes you very efficient in some ways. You’re the type to kick down doors and slice through knots while others are still deliberating on what to do. And woe betide all who stand in your way! Nobody is as willing to stand up and fight for their people or their ideals as a Lion. So thank you, Lions, for your integrity and determination–and don’t be surprised if you need help one day and look around to find a whole army of people willing to fight for you.

Snake: You guys are so much fun! Seriously, ever hung out with a Snake friend? It’s incredible watching them shapeshift every thirty seconds. You’re the supportive friend, the class clown, and the sneaky schemer all within the span of five minutes. You have this striking ability to see what would best fit the situation, and then just… become that. You’re so clever and observant, and you know just what the people around you need and want at any given moment. Each of your masks is a special gift just for the person you show it to, and should be treasured as such. And the way you solve problems is so creative. You have this tendency to take a tool and use it in a way that was never intended, yet somehow works flawlessly. Plus it’s a real treat when you go into neutral mode–when a Snake drops all their masks, it feels so special, kind of like seeing the birth of a baby panda. It’s an honor to be trusted with something like that. Thank you, Snakes, for becoming whatever the situation demands of you and gifting us all with your lovingly crafted masks.

TL;DR: Every primary rules. Every secondary rules. The SHC community in general also rules. Thank you all for being you.

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

That is such a good point that I didn't consider; thank you @sevilemar ! The fluidness with which Snake and Bird Secondaries can utilize their masks/personas/tools is only limited by what their Primary views as acceptable conduct, meanwhile Lion and Badger Secondaries do have limitations inherent in their nature.

Lions do not like personal inauthenticity, and Badgers do not like inauthenticity in their work. This definitely changes how they might interpret the ends vs the means.

A Lion Secondary only really accepts face-changing in the form of raising or lowering their intensity, and outright lying is something they naturally shy away from (and/or directly reject). But it isn't really a moral issue for them (although it's entirely possible they do have personal qualms about lying, but that would be a primary thing); it's about how uncomfortable it is. To a Lion Secondary inauthenticity is unnatural. It's not their safe state; it's not their preferred state. It doesn't fit them, and I've been told it can also be quite stressful.

For a Badger Secondary, cutting corners and inauthenticity in their work is also uncomfortable and unnatural. They don't like it - not because it's morally wrong (although, depending on the situation, they may also have moral qualms about cutting corners), but because it isn't the way they are most comfortable doing things. Cutting corners and doing work that isn't authentic to their skills and time spent working doesn't make them feel accomplished or like they gamed the system. It makes them feel bad.

On the other hand, while the means of Snakes and Birds are only technically limited by what their Primary dictates as right and wrong, they definitely do have preferred means. As a Snake, if you told me that I had to sit down and write out a speech to accomplish a goal, I would groan. "Let me just jot down some bullet points and do the rest on the spot, please!" I would plead, because I'm terrible at giving rehearsed speeches, and I'm at my best when I can improvise things on the spot. Many people are horrified when I tell them that, but I genuinely love public speaking as long as I don't have to recite something. Recitation makes me feel off-kilter and anxious; I usually overanalyze everything I'm saying as I'm saying it and begin to feel disconnected from the moment. Improvisation, however, makes me feel comfortable and stable in the moment. If "the ends" are my ideal goal, but "the means" are utilizing the skills of a secondary that is not my own, then the ends very well might not justify the means, depending on the situation. Similarly, if you asked a Bird Secondary to deal with a situation they have absolutely no tools for nor prior experience with, then they're probably also going to have trouble justifying the ends with their unsatisfactory means.

I think the common theme here is that for all secondaries "the ends" are less likely to justify "the means" if the means do not aline with their preferred secondary. A Snake Secondary would not like having to do things the Badger way, just like a Lion would not like having to do things the Bird way.

Instead of using "the ends justifying the means" as an anology, which is a little too morality coded for a discussion on Secondaries, perhaps thinking about things in terms of a cost-benefit analysis would help?

Does the "cost" of this goal force me to work outside the natural scope of my Secondary? Is the "benefit" worth that?

If the "cost" of a goal is face-changing, a Snake Secondary would probably say, "Yes, that works for me." While a Lion Secondary might say, "No, the benefit of this goal isn't enough to justify the cost of having to face-change."

I would love to hear some more perspectives on this. Especially if any Badger, Lion, or Bird Secondaries would like to comment, since I only have my personal Snake Secondary experience and what I've read about the other Secondaries to cite.

Is "the ends justify the means" a circumventing secondary saying?

It can be... depending on the person. I hesitate to agree fully because this is usually a saying that involves ethics and that ventures into Primary territory. I've had plenty of conversations with Bird and Snake Secondaries who have strong negative feelings about lying, manipulating, or other skills, so they do put limits on their means.

I think a better (or at least more neutral) motto for Circumventing Secondaries is "Work smarter, not harder."

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

Red's Burrow is right on the money as always. "Work smarter, not harder" is definitely a good way to think about circumventing secondaries, and "the ends justify the means" is more of a primary thing.

Secondaries, by definition, aren't about morality at all. They're entirely morally neutral, in fact. (One of my favorite things about the SHC system). Secondaries are just how you go about doing the things you do.

So, as a circumventing secondary (Snake Secondary), when I'm masking and code switching, I'm not think about whether or not my "end" goal justifies the "means" of what I'm doing. I'm just being myself; there's no thought put into it. Some Snakes may have models and performances that change the way they use their Snake Secondary and the way they conceptualize it, but as someone without any Secondary models or performances, its all very fluid on my part. I can be in the middle of a conversation and know that I'm masking, but I never had to pause and make a choice to do that; it's just my default setting.

Ironically enough, in my experience, neutral mode as a Snake Secondary is a much more conscious choice than masking. My masks are like my clothes. They're the way I present myself to society, and there's no way I'm walking outside without them on. The outfits I pick are what best suit my environment. I don't have to think about needing to wear a coat and boots during the winter, just like I don't have to think about adjusting my tone and posture to fit a business scenario versus a casual hang out with friends.

To an extent, everyone code switches; the only difference is that Snake Secondaries do it all the time, with pretty much everyone. For me, it's probably somewhat of a coping mechanism. It's not entirely specific to Snake Secondaries, but I do believe Snake Secondaries are often very good at reading people. We pay close attention to our environments and adjust accordingly, often rapidly, to every new bit of information we pick up on. To me, that's just smart. That's how I've protected myself in a lot of dicey situations and managed to come out ahead in a lot of otherwise unfortunate ones. My masks make me feel safe, and without them, it's a lot like being naked. Going neutral is a very personal thing for me, a true "mortifying ordeal of being known" experience. If anything, I'm more likely to wonder if the "ends" (of a situation) are worth it if I have to abandon my preferred "means" (masks).

Is "the ends justify the means" a circumventing secondary saying?

It can be... depending on the person. I hesitate to agree fully because this is usually a saying that involves ethics and that ventures into Primary territory. I've had plenty of conversations with Bird and Snake Secondaries who have strong negative feelings about lying, manipulating, or other skills, so they do put limits on their means.

I think a better (or at least more neutral) motto for Circumventing Secondaries is "Work smarter, not harder."

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

psst... is your inbox open?

My inbox is open! And my current New Years resolution is to be more active on this account, so please feel free to send me asks :)

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

All three of those series would make such interesting sorting posts.

Although, I've seen someone do a Leverage sorting before on their non-tumblr blog, and I would be super interested in seeing whether or not you have similar ideas about their sortings.

so lately I’ve been watching Succession, Leverage, and The Boys, and thinking they might all be fun fodder for sorting posts. Any thoughts about which one gets a write-up? 

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

wow hi!! i’m the entp 6w7 double lion and thanks sm for your detailed response.

there were 2 main issues i had that i should have expressed more clearly- the first is that i felt 6w7 sort of conflicted with the double lion stereotype of charging in and being pretty fearless. i think i project a fearless persona a lot because i feel i am pretty shy and breakable inside (i was an extremely sensitive kid), but i have trouble internally with claiming it as my own because i’m insecure about my previous shyness and feel fake about it, like i’m worried i’m smothering my “true self” (even though i seriously haven’t been shy in years!). i feel more anxious, fidgety, and flighty than how i imagine a double lion. but you’ve addressed that (although i Do feel i put on masks, but that might be a model because it is deeply exhausting to project facades in the long term)

the second and more prominent worry i had is about my mbti functions and lion primary. i’ve always felt i have low fi- i have a deeply unstable sense of self (which is why i am so clearly enamored with personality tests). my fe is by comparison much higher, i have people pleasing tendencies and sometimes sacrifice standing up for my ideals (although some ideals are non negotiable) in favor of maintaining social harmony.

i also find that my fi is weak in a way where i have trouble knowing my own beliefs- others can often convince me of new stances easily if they talk long enough. (tbf i also think i can convince other people of stuff if i talk long enough lol) long term, i ultimately still process and decide whether they feel right to me and if they stick. but i often agree with and see other perspectives very easily and have to ruminate on them.

things “feel right” to me like a lion, but that doesn’t line up with the low fi i know i have?? like would a lion really be so easily convinced of a new stance in the short term like that? i guess i just feel way more reliant on social validation than a lion like i also often have the sense that others automatically know better than me, like i trust myself less. i always find myself become more birdish when i’m questioning myself because it’s so hard to rely on an internal sense of right for me. so maybe i’m a bit burnt hahaha sorry for the big mass of disorganized thoughts! but i just wanted to thank you for your detailed analysis and follow up with you

Thank you so much for following up with me!!! I'm so sorry I didn't see this sooner (I haven't checked my blog recently)!

Okay, let's break this down.

On the surface, 6w7 does seem to conflict with the Double Lion stereotype, but once you get more involved with SHC and the wonderful little community we have, you'll come to find that Double Lions come in all kinds of flavors :) There are plenty of Double Lions that are cautious and have people-pleaser tendencies. It really just comes down to whether or not your moral priorities are internal and felt and whether or not your preferred reactionary approach is just being authentic to yourself.

So it does seem like you've got some built up negative emotions surrounding your personality, and that definitely indicates there might be some burning going on somewhere, but this still reads as Lion Secondary. The thing that stands out to me is that you're most concerned with authenticity. You're worried about whether or not your confident "persona" is true to yourself because you were shy when you were younger, but let me let you in on a little secret: I was one of those super confident kids that everyone looked up to as a leader, that everyone thought was fearless, but the truth was, I was probably just as scared and fragile and flighty as you were when you were younger. In reality, everyone is. No one is truly confident right from the get-go. We're all just trying to find our way, putting on a brave face in the hopes that it'll all work out in the end. A lot of times we throw on that brave mask and part way through we realize we really do have it all together and that's when it becomes real. So it's okay if sometimes you feel like you're acting stronger than you really are, we all do that to an extent, and I don't think it makes us any less authentic.

And maybe sometimes you do put on masks. Being a Lion Secondary - 100% true to yourself 100% of the time - just isn't always feasible as much as I'm sure you wish it was. There are probably times where you have to put on a bit of a performance or a mask just to accomplish a task or work through whatever situation is in front of you. It really just comes down to what you act like when you're at your most comfortable, how you would prefer to handle a situation given optimal circumstances. In those situations, are you putting on masks, using a crafted persona, or mirroring those around you? Or are you just getting to be yourself? As a Lion Secondary (especially a Double Lion), I'm sure you're thinking "Well of course, given the best circumstances, I'd be myself! Who wouldn't?!" So it might surprise you when I tell you that is a purely Lion Secondary thing. Bird secondaries like to craft personas. Their ideal circumstances would probably be a situation in which one of their crafted personas, such as Tutor!Bird for example, comes smoothly in handy. For a Badger, they mirror the energy/vibe/demeanor of the people around them, so their ideal scenario would probably involve getting to work with a group of people who's energy they really click with and getting to bounce off each other. For a Snake Secondary, like me, my ideal scenario is adapting to whatever situation is placed in front of me so well that no one can tell I walked in completely unprepared.

Now, onto MBTI and the Lion Primary conundrum.

So the unstable sense of self is something I think a lot of us struggle with, especially those of us drawn to personality tests as you've so aptly mentioned. And that's okay, or at least it's going to be okay. I think that SHC has done a lot for me; it's really helped me grow to understand myself in tangible way. I hope these personality tests will help you do the same. Of course, personality tests and communities are not therapy, and sometimes we just need to sit down with a professional and work some things out. I, personally, go to therapy, and, while it was one of the hardest decisions I ever made, it's certainly been one of the best. So I'm a big advocate for it.

Anyways, continuing on, Fi is not one of the ENTP's preferred functions, so it totally makes sense that you're more dependent on Fe (need for group consensus, people pleasing, etc.) Now, does this conflict with being a Lion Primary? I don't think so. When you mentioned maintaining social harmony, I did think for a moment that that does sound a little bit Badger, but I think you maybe have just had some stronger Badger voices in your life or environment perhaps? It seems less like something you feel on a deeply moral level, and more like something you feel is necessary for your safety in a way. Like, "I don't feel confident and safe in voicing my true beliefs in this situation, so I feel it's best to go along with how the group feels right now" instead of "These are my people, my community, and it would be wrong for me to not trust their moral judgement because they come first." The first one is a Lion Primary reasoning, and the second one is a Loyalist Primary (Badger or Snake) reasoning. You're an Enneagram 6, so I think it's very possible that you've learned social harmony is safer than social discord, and sometimes disagreements between people we're close to can set off alarms in our heads about personal safety because we relate them to a time of instability in our past where arguments and disharmony were actually a genuine threat to our safety.

"others can often convince me of new stances easily if they talk long enough"

Okay, I may be wrong, but I don't think this is a low Fi thing at all actually. I think this is a developed Fe, high Ti thing. Otherwise known as an ENTP special (although I might be the only one who calls it that lol). I really think this is just something us ENTPs do, and I don't think it has anything to do with morality. As you go on to say next, "i ultimately still process and decide whether they feel right to me and if they stick. but i often agree with and see other perspectives very easily and have to ruminate on them." I'm the exact same way, my friend. I think we ENTPs just really like to play around with ideas. As Wisteria has previously mentioned in some other posts, sometimes Lion Primaries like to do this thing called the "rubber duck method" where we like to drop ideas into the murky water of our minds and see if they float. I haven't collected enough information on MBTI as it intersects with SHC, but I wouldn't be surprised if ENTP Lion Primaries were the kind of people who do this the most. I think it just works really well with how we like to conceptualize and internalize moral systems. I kind of see it like this:

After being presented with an idea

Is the idea even a little bit possible?

If yes, then lets assume it's true.

Now let's explore it as a truth. How does it work? How does it interact with other truths? What are the weaknesses and strengths of this idea?

Does it feel right? How am I responding to it? How are other people responding to it? What final questions do I have about this?

Finally, do I actually agree with this idea and wish to incorporate it into my system or have I decided that it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny?

The important thing to note here is that you're still ruminating on how you feel about it. You consider your feelings on the matter valid input on whether or not something really is true. From what I understand, true Bird Primaries just don't see it that way. They have feelings about issues, obviously, but they personally value their logic and provable truths over their personal truths. It feels irresponsible to them, even, to choose their personal feelings over what they believe is a logical choice. I think that fact that you don't trust yourself, so you're trying to use a Bird morality and it obviously isn't making you happy, is just more proof that you really are a Lion Primary. I think there probably is some burning here, but I think you're starting to become conscious of it, which is a good thing because that means you can work to slowly unburn and start to trust yourself more. Remember, Primaries are supposed to make you feel good. So when you're trying to stay truly Bird because you don't trust your internal compass, and it's not making you feel good, that's a sign that it's not who you truly are.

I want to thank you again for sending me this ask, and I really, really hope this helped a little bit. You're actually my first ask ever, so I was super excited to see this in my inbox! Also please don't be afraid to keep sending asks or comment on this post if you want to keep this discussion going or have more questions; I promise I'm having a great time discussing SHC, MBTI, and Enneagram with you :)

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

Hello Anon! Now, I'm not an expert in the Myers-Briggs, Enneagram, or SHC, but I am pretty into all of them. I'm also an ENTP and a Lion Primary (although to be honest I'm still vacillating a little between Bird and Lion on my Primary).

Anyways two small follow-up questions: Is it your Lion Primary or Lion Secondary that seems unlikely in combination with an ENTP 6w7? And is it the ENTP part or the 6w7 part?

Personally, I believe any myers-briggs type can fit in with any enneagram type and any SHC type because they all serve to highlight different facets and functions of your personality.

The myers-briggs claims to highlight the ways in which different individuals perceive the world around them and then how they make judgments on the information they receive through these perceptions.

The enneagram claims to categorize the ways in which childhood development affects our fundamental personality, including our deepest fears and desires, and how that changes the way we interpret and respond to the world around us.

The SHC is designed to highlight our top moral priorities (motivations) and the ways in which we set about accomplishing goals, solving problems, and often how we interact with the world on a day-to-day basis (methods).

I don't think any of these systems necessarily conflict with each other. Now, will some combinations work together in a way that seems convoluted and possibly improbable? Certainly. But to me, that makes perfect sense. Humans are complicated and convoluted and messy and confusing, and that's absolutely wonderful!

Now, on to your specific typing, and why I think it all works together just fine:

You're an ENTP, which means you have Extraverted Intuition (Ne) as your dominant function, Introverted Thinking (Ti) as your auxiliary function, Extraverted Feeling (Fe) as your tertiary function, and Introverted Sensing (Si) as your inferior function. Now, it's worth mentioning here that just because we ENTPs have Fe and Si so low in our stack that doesn't mean we don't still use them and that we can't develop them to their full potential. Fe in particular often contributes to our infamous tendency towards debates and our less infamous tendency towards talking out our emotions and opening up discussions about how others feel concerning topics of interest. Your Ne and Ti probably work together to give you a million ideas about all sorts of things, and make you want to explore them. All of this definitely works well with a Lion Secondary. For example, you may have some Experimental Lion Secondary tendencies. Do you like jumping into ideas, throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks? Navigating through your theories and goals by just going for it, trying it all out and feeling what works? That's all Lion Secondary, my friend.

As a Double Lion, once you've settled on a course of action, an idea, a goal, you're probably one to follow through, and you'll do it with certainty.

Perhaps the Double Lion and ENTP combination seems a little incompatible to you because you like to take in new information and incorporate it into your worldview? ENTPs are often open minded and we do have a tendency to play around with new ideas and thoughts even if we don't personally agree with them. We like developing our understanding of things to the absolute fullest, and that may make you think you're a Bird Primary (it's certainly made me question myself a few times).

But in the end, I think it really comes down to what comes first: when you're presented with a new idea (think of something simple, not life or death or extremely morally challenging), do you A.) incorporate it into your system immediately if you accept the logic, regardless of how you feel about it? Or do you B.) gauge how you feel about it, then analyze the logic of it and decide whether or not to incorporate it into your system?

This isn't a perfect example, but if someone told you pears are the best fruit and then proved it to you scientifically would you say "Well, I guess pears really are the best fruit" or would you say "Well, maybe pears are the best fruit by the parameters you've set in place, but I personally still feel like oranges are better"

If you answered A, maybe you really are a Bird Primary. But if you answered B, you probably are actually a Lion Primary.

Or maybe it isn't the ENTP-Double Lion combination but the 6w7-Double Lion combination.

According to the Enneagram, 6w7s most fear losing their support systems and most value safety and support. They're often very loyal, supportive individuals with a 7 wing flare for sociability.

Maybe your loyal and supportive nature makes you think that you should fall somewhere on the Loyalist side of Primaries, instead of on the Idealist side? Well, it's worth noting that Lions can be incredibly loyal individuals, just as loyal as any other Primary. While they may prioritize their own feelings on specific ideas they're presented with, that doesn't mean that they don't take into account the feelings of their friends and loved ones when making decisions.

Maybe your desire for security means that in a hypothetical situation you would prioritize your security over something you deem morally correct, and that makes you think that maybe you're a Snake Primary for prioritizing yourself? But to a Lion, prioritizing yourself and your safety can very much be an *internal* and *felt* morality. Plus, any hypothetical that involves safety and personal security doesn't work for typing because any Primary or Secondary can and very possibly will react outside of their normal typology (prioritizing personal safety is something we should all endeavor do to).

Finally, maybe it's the 6w7 interacting with a Lion Secondary that doesn't sound quite right to you. 6s are known for being cautious, and the most well-known literary examples of Double Lions are often fearless heroes ready to charge into any situation, but you have to remember that Double Lions come in all kinds of different flavors. Being cautious doesn't negate having a Lion Secondary, it just means you like to be certain of the security of a choice before you take it. But once you make that choice, as a Lion Secondary, I'm sure you're the kind of personal who will see it through till the end, and when obstacles present themselves, you'll push straight through them with sheer determination. If someone throws a rock in your path, the rock's gonna be the thing that moves out of the way, not you. And you're authentic, you don't wear masks, you haven't crafted all these different versions of yourself to use in different specific situations, you don't mirror the people around you. You're just you. Maybe a little less intensely you depending on the situation, but you're not changing yourself to look or act like anyone else unless it's really necessary.

I don't think any of these things negate being a 6w7 nor an ENTP. Double Lions can be just as loyal, loving, and cautious or as inventive, inquisitive, and open minded as any other Primary and Secondary combination.

So this was a super long kind of rambling response, and I know I threw out a ton of hypotheticals, but I hope it helped! And if it didn't, I can recommend @amai-no-ura 's blog. They've talked about myers-briggs typology before, and may be able to explain things better. As for enneagram, I don't know any blogs off the top of my head that know a lot about that system, but maybe someone in the comments can come to your aid.

I hope you have a wonderful day! And thank you Wisteria for all of the SHC help you do (and sorry for hijacking your post)!

is it possible to be an entp 6w7 double lion? i keep getting double lion on tests and it doesn’t seem wrong, but they just seem kind of incompatible. would love to hear your thoughts

I know some other people in the community branch out into Enneagram and Meyer Briggs, but I really don't. I like this one. I'm very much a purist for this one.

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

No more zodiac signs. If you were the main character and you finally brutally murdered somebody to show the audience that you are no longer the upstanding young man you were at the beginning and that you had "snapped," what song would be playing in that scene?

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

oh hello! i made a little uquiz assigning you a historical period (and maybe i call you gay)

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

on secondaries ~

(this is kind of an exercise for myself. I'm going to run though an explanation, and see how many words/terms I use to do it.) 

Secondaries are about problem solving. That can be a serious problem, or a problem like “boredom” (which is how secondaries relate to hobbies.) But the question is how do people solve problems. That's it. So a good place to start is how people solve problems while alone.

PART 1 - SINGLE PLAYER

BOOKKEEPER BADGER chips away at a problem in increments. Things are done throughly, all the scaffolding in place. No corners are cut. Usually a community's load-bearing support beam (even if they are personally unpleasant.) Would rather do something well than quickly.

COLLECTION BIRD collects knowledge, skills, tools, contacts. If they want something that doesn’t exist out in the wild, they make it. Tend to have a lot of weird, seemingly unconnected skills. The kings of "work smarter, not harder."

~ these are Built secondaries (or Prepwork secondaries) because the more time Badgers and Birds have to build, the happier and more successful they are. ~

Lion and Snake are much much better known for their interpersonal "multiplayer" skills, that’s what you normally see in fiction. But here's how I see their single-player working:

EXPERIMENT LION "what happens if I plug the thing in the thing?" There's a lot of throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. Dive in, figure it out as you go. For examples, think of the more "science flavored" Lion secondaries, like Tony Stark, Lord Asriel, or Merlin (of Merlin.) It's a rarer character type, but it's there.

ENVIRONMENT SNAKE "what have I got to work with, what have I got in front of me, how can I look at it/use it in a new way?" This is Ferris Bueller making his Rube-Goldberg contraptions, or Maria from the Sound of Music making clothes out of curtains. There is also a pot-stirring element to Single-Player Snake: if it turns out that you don't have anything to work with, then do something that changes up the status quo, and react to the fallout. (This a favorite tactic of Jack Sparrow, and the Joker.)

NOTE: I've also seen these guys called "Storage Bunker Snakes," which I think is a metaphor that steps on the toes of Bird a little: when I think of a storage bunker, I think of a collection.

Once interesting observation (thank you @reds-burrow) is that Lions and Badgers work by changing their surroundings, and Birds and Snakes work by adapting to their surrounding. I think this is why a Coiled Spring Badger who has been prepping for a long time before finally releasing can look a lot like a just-go-for-it-and-see-what-happens Experiment Lion. And a Rapid-Fire Bird who is really comfortable in their environment can look a lot like an Environment Snake just coming up with things on the fly.

PART 2 - MULTI-PLAYER

We've all got to interact with people (some more than others.) So how is that accomplished?

COURTIER BADGER - There is no acting, they become whoever they need to be in the moment. Mostly this means mirroring the energy of whatever group they're in, and shifting accordingly. This is still a Built secondary, because better you know a group/person, the easier and more effectively you can match them, and the more trustworthy you will seem.

ACTOR BIRD - They have different personas or roles they have prepared beforehand, and which they are able to pull out when needed. Often Actor Birds give their personas names like "Professional!Me" or "Artsy!Me." It's likely that they modeled at least one after a character or another person. It's also likely that they enjoy or rely on costumes.

BEACON LION - We all know this one from fiction. The person who's going to be completely authentic, and if they alienate people then so be it. They hate lying. They feels safest and most powerful when they just put themselves out there and speak their truth. BUT in real life these guys have to face-change just like everyone else. Their metaphor is a raising or lowering of intensity. They are always themselves, but they can be louder or softer versions of themselves.

MASQUERADE SNAKE - Another favorite from fiction. These guys are a slightly different person with everyone they interact with, and while every mask is them, they don't need to believe what they say the way a Badger does. They're also good at choosing what kind of impression they want to make, and telling 'creative truths' - how do I phrase something to get this person to listen to me?

This group is interesting, because you can break it down in a few ways. The Prep-work (Badger & Bird) vs In-the-moment (Snake & Lion) divide is still definitely there. But I think it's interesting how Badger and Snakes talk about their mirroring and masks as being fundamentally *them.* Birds talking about personas, or Lions talking about raising and lowering intensity will go... that's constructed, that's something different from *me.* Badger & Snake shifting pulls from the unconscious self, Lion and Bird pulls from the conscious self. @sevilemar is right, that is a real difference.

In which case, I guess for me it comes down to:

PREP-WORK (Badger + Bird) vs IN-THE-MOMENT (Lion + Snake) 

DELIBERATE (Lion + Bird) vs AUTOMATIC (Badger + Snake) 

YOU MOVE (Badger + Lion) vs I MOVE (Bird + Snake) 

(And Neutral? Neutral is what you get when your multi-player is not actively face-shifting (and even Lions face-shift a little.) So... when you're existing in your single-player. And there's no reason you can't be having fun with your single player around people.)

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

Enneagram Type 9 - The Peacemaker

Nines are accepting, trusting, and stable. They are usually creative, optimistic, and supportive, but can also be too willing to go along with others to keep the peace. They want everything to go smoothly and be without conflict, but they can also tend to be complacent, simplifying problems and minimizing anything upsetting. They typically have problems with inertia and stubbornness. At their Best: indomitable and all-embracing, they are able to bring people together and heal conflicts.

- The Enneagram Institute