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extraposts23 · 7 years ago

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Flash back training. Dont reblog.

So this is a meta i wrote about how Arrow/Oliver’s training and how unrealistic and ridiculous it is , given all that happens in the 5 years that happened to him. How there is no way he could have possibly become the ‘Expert/Master’ martial artist that we see in the present. How he returns to Star City and suddenly he is a ‘Expert’ You don’t have to read it if you don’t want, you don’t have to like it either.

So here is my break down, its a bit in depth . Episode by episode via the Flashbacks . Exactly what happens in the Flashbacks. Im not disputing the fighting we see on screen,the actual physical fights or rather how they were done, im DISPUTING how Oliver got to that point in the 5 YEARS he was missing. How he got to the level we see in the present. In the present part of the show he is at this expert/master level, but in his 5 year journey how could he have possibly got to that point. Where would he have had the time, given all that was happening, given that he spent the majority of each flashback year on the run, captured , tortured and on the run again. Because the past training is unrealistic and ridiculous. Also this is supposed to be a show based in realistic fighting, so shouldn’t the training of the character be realistic as well? Again, not the present stuff , but the past trained to how he got to the present level because it does not match. Given the few months that Oliver had of actual fight training from Slade.

I will mention the present training a little towards the end, the training he got from Merlyn and Ra’s. But mostly this is about the past , 5 years , he was supposedly trained.

The show seems to be pretty much real time. So this is the first Season , year 1 up to the first half of Season 4, Year 4 of Oliver’s missing time.

Sorry , i may repeat my self a few times.

1x01-We find out how he ended up on the island in the first place and how his dad died.

1x02-Oliver buries his dad and gets shot with an Arrow by Yeoh Fei. So he is injured within the first week.

1x03- Yeoh Fei treats Oliver’s woulds and gives him the magic special herbs that heal every thing known to man. Oliver then tries to run and gets caught in a net. Yeoh Fei then saves him and they return to the cave. Oliver still injured.

1x04-Yeoh fei teaches Oliver to kill a bird. Oliver is getting better, after his injury

1x05-Yeaoh fei teaches Oliver to fire a Bow with NO success. Then Oliver gets captured by that fires guys men and thrown into a cage. Then gets brought to the bad guys base camp. Gets tortured and Yeoh Fei rescues him. No way he could have been trained here because he was captured.

1x06- Oliver hallucinates his own father. He is by himself , so no way Yeoh Fei could have shown him anything.

We jump ahead to episode 9 because the 2 previous episodes were about huntress.

1x09- Yeoh Fei captures the bad guy Fires. Oliver is still at zero skill level , No way Yeoh Fei taught him anything in intervening episodes. Yeoh Fei is taking Fires and Oliver to the Plane so Oliver can go home. Its a trap and Oliver runs away, Yeoh Fei takes on Slades former partner and a bunch of goons with guns and gets captured by said bad guys.

1x10-Oliver tries to make himself a fire and almost gets caught by a bad guy. He takes out said bad guy by taking them both down a hill and into a brook/river. He then takes the bad guys uniform and map. Oliver is by himself again , so no way Yeoh Fei was able to teach him anything.

1x11- Oliver manages to infiltrate Fires men and make it to Fires camp again only to get cracked over the head by Fires himself. Finding out that Yoeh fei betrayed him.

1x12- Oliver is still a prisoner and is forced to fight Yeoh Fei. He gets his ass kicked by Yeoh Fei and Yeoh Fei uses the pressure point thing on him and he wakes up in a river only to head to the plane and meet Slade. Im sorry but Oliver was unconscious so there is no way he could have figured out how to do the pressure thing. Not from Yeoh Fei.

1x13- Oliver meets Slade at the plane and he almost kills Oliver. Slade attempts to teach him to use a sword and fails. He ties Oliver up and they discuss things then lets Oliver go to “train” him.

1x14- Remember this is real time, so a week later Slade is trying to teach Oliver the Eskrima sticks and succeeds a LITTLE. Id also like to point out that Slade literally says “ how did you survive here for 6 months” , so that is six months of the first year where Oliver knows NOTHING. So clearly Yeoh Fei taught him NOTHING in that time .Then they immediately go to the air strip and Oliver steps on a Land mine, to which Slade saves him. Slade and Oliver have some fun by the fire side. They try to infiltrate the air strip that night and Oliver faces off with a guy who has a gun and Slade shoots him from behind saving Oliver. Slade then shoots the guy in the radio tower , Oliver then tries to take out the guy in the tower but fails , Slade saves him yet again. Oliver goes off to rescue Yeoh Fie. Fails again and forced to fight or rather be publicly killed by Slades former partner. Slade to the rescue yet again. Slade kills his former partner and Oliver and he escape, Oliver faces a goon with a gun and manages a single move that Slade taught him. Then he takes a bullet out of Slades arm. And we find out that the reason for Yeoh fei’s betrayal is Shado. So Oliver was able to glean a few moves from Slade in this day/night. But still poor skills given that at the air field Slade came to his aid and did all the work. Point being no way is he a skilled fighter at this point.

1x15- Slade is sick and the wound is infected so Oliver is treating him, goes to get super herbs . Interrogates a guy in the cave. So how is Slade going to continue training him when he is ill?

1x16- Slade and Oliver exercise and Oliver decides to play with the radio instead of training. Slade goes hunting and Oliver is still playing with the radio. Slade and Oliver then find a missile site. No fight training.

1x17- They are still at the Missile site. They infiltrate the site and Slade shoots them all. Oliver then makes a deal with the bad guy, the circuit board for a way off the island.

1x18- takes place right after the other one. They are still making the deal with Fires. They are about to trade the circuit board for Yeoh fei and Shado. They fight, Slade and Shado kick ass. Oliver shoves a guy against a tree, manages to flip him then hits him in the head with a rock. They end up having to leave Yoeh fei behind. So clearly Slade did not teach him much more after that one time, and when would he have had the time with all that is happening.

1x19- Slade and Shado spar and Oliver watches. Shado has Oliver slapping a bowl of water to learn arm strength. Next scene Oliver is still slapping water and Shado is doing Yoga. At night Oliver is slapping water and now he can draw his bow. Also id point out that Slade in this episode literally says “ ive tried to train him, but limited success” so Slade did not have much time to teach Oliver anything. Shado says “ i haven’t tried yet”, then she has him slapping a bowl of water , then starts teaching him the bow, because they don’t have time for anything else, because they have to get ready to deal with fires. So shado taught him zip in regards to martial arts which is seen in the finale.

1x20-Maybe takes place right after the last or a day or so later. Shado teaches Oliver to shoot a bow and fails. She says that he will hit his mark by sundown or they do it Slade way. Oliver fails, because at the end Shado has a face failure, then they get caught by yeoh fei and the bad guys.So how exactly is Shado or Slade going to continue Oliver’s fight training if they have been captured?

1x21- was all about Oliver’s dad and Merlyn.

We skip to 1x22 - Again maybe a day or 2 later ,guessing maybe same day since it can’t possibly take that long to get to the ememy camp. Slade , Shado and Oliver are brought to the bad guy camp. Where they learn that the bad guys are going to down a plane. Fires shoots Slade and Shado, Yeoh fei gives Oliver a knife to cut himself free. And they watch Yeoh fie executed. So that is now Yeoh Fei out of the training equation.

1x23-The finale - Oliver cuts himself free and rushes over and shoves Fires then stabs the guy at the control panel. Turns and cuts Shado free . Slade and Shado are bad asses again , but Oliver then gets grabbed by the guy he stabbed. Is being held until Shado saves him, he cannot get free. So If Shado had taught him anything, then why did he need her to rescue him, if he had the martial arts skills taught by her. Because he was NOT taught by her. They then try to take out the launcher. Slade covers them with his gun, Shado then takes out the guy on the launcher and then Oliver runs up to get on it. After Shado takes out 2 more guys on the launcher she gets taken over the side and Oliver is left alone. he gets thrown down on the thing by another guy and repeatedly pounded , he kicks him off then throws him over the side. And the missile hits the camp instead. All the skills of a unskilled brawler or rather the limited skills that Slade taught him in that one day or so.. Shado is taken by Fires and Oliver then shoots the guy through the throat killing him.

So that is one year down, where he was taught maybe limited skills by Slade via a day or so. Yeoh Fei spent like 80% of the year helping Oliver recover from the Arrow that he himself put in him, then got caught and was working for Fires. There is NO WAY that he could have taught Oliver anything. I’ll give Shado the Bow, because she was able help with his aim and help with his arm strength. But in NO WAY would she have had time to teach him any fighting, given the time they had and the fact they got captured immediately.

Season 2- 2x01-Again this is pretty much real time , so he only had a few months. Shado literally says “ you have come far in a FEW months”. He improved a bit with the stick fighting via Slade and combat skills via Slade again, but immediately Shado is captured and he tackles the guy and beats him with a rock. Now, his feelings were in the way, granted, but if he was trained so well by either of them, then he would not have simply just tackled the guy , he would have dealt with all of them like the “skilled fighter” we see in the present, but he was not trained for very long by Slade. You cannot become an expert in a FEW months, in Season 1 episode 14, Slade was attempting to teach him fighting and Oliver learned maybe one move.

2x02-The next episode takes place right after and the are waking around trying to figure out who is after them as well as Oliver dealing with killing a guy. And they find the cave.

2x03- Shado is examining a corpse . Slade and Oliver go to look around to scope out the area and Ivo’s ship fires missiles on the plane wreckage they are living in. Oliver goes running off to save Shado and Slade gets hit and severely injured. And Oliver wakes up in a cell on the Amazo.

2x04-Oliver is still on the Amazo in a cage , gets shot by one of the guards , and pulls a bullet out of his side with tweezers of some kind. He meets the Russian guy Anatoyli . Oliver finds out that the ship crew are looking for some grave site and some bones,and he finds Sara. Now Oliver is a prisoner , so how exactly is he supposed to learn to fight when he is a prisoner and being tortured?

2x05- Flash backs for Sara, we learn how she survived, and how she ended up on the Amazo.

2x06- So if we are going for year long here, Oliver had to have spent at least 2 weeks on the boat as a prisoner, if not more, because this is year 2 of his missing years. Oliver is still prisoner on the Amazo, being interrogated by IVO. So exactly how is supposed to have learned any fighting when he is a prisoner and being tortured? Sara and IVO want to know where a Sub is and where the Mirakurru is. Oliver is in a cage and talking to Sara. Shado is treating a critically injured Slade. Oliver and Sara try to contact Slade and Shado, but Oliver is tricked by Sara and now IVO knows the location of his friends and the plane.

2x07-Then next week Ivo, Sara and Oliver go to the plane wreckage and Shado who was treating a critically injured Slade manage to escape the bomb that they find. Shado and a really hurt Slade rescue Oliver and Sara. So Shado and a SERIOUSLY INJURED Slade again save Oliver. Oliver could not have been trained by Shado since at this point she had been taking care of Slade.

I also reiterate , there is NO WAY you can become an expert in martial arts on only a few months, the amount of time between Season 1 finale and Season 2 premiere . Which is what Shado said, “you came far in a few months” , came far but not an expert. It takes YEARS Upon YEARS to master even one style.

2x08-Then next week , this has to be at least the next day or so after the last flash back.They all are helping Slade walk and looking for the Submarine. They find the Sub and enter the Sub to find the drug. We also find out that Slade had feelings for Shado, but she only cared for him as a friend maybe. They inject Slade with the Serum and Shado ,Sara and Oliver gets captured Again. So that is now Slade out of the equation of trainers. Because how is Slade going to train Oliver when he is this injured, and now in super strength madness.

2x09-Then very next episode, has to be immediately after the last. IVO’s men storm the sub and capture Shado , Sara and Oliver. IVO is furious that they used the drug on Slade,but happy they have the drug. Sara pleads with IVO, but he doesn’t care to much. Now if Oliver had any of the training that he supposedly got from Shado, then the men with guns would not have been a problem. But to be fair here, in this one part they were taken by surprise and Shado could not have done anything either. But i am disputing where he could have gotten his training. And still here , there is no way because they were CAPTURED AGAIN. Slade wakes up and has super strength, Oliver is forced to choose between Shado and Sara and he chooses Sara. Shado dies. So that is now Shado out of the training equation. She could not have possibly trained him , given that half the time they were either captured , on the run, helping Slade and now dead.

Soo no i don’t buy that Shado had time to teach him anything at all. Not given what we see. Because if she taught him any fighting techniques he would have been a way better fighter than what we saw. And She could not possibly have taught him after since she was killed.

2x10-Now the next episode is spent dealing with Slades Mirakuru madness, so He definitely would not have been trained by him at that time. They bury Shado next to her father. Slade gives Oliver Yeoh Fei’s hood, Oliver wants to tell Slade the truth. Slade has the super drug and he is losing his mind. Slade wants to find IVO and kill him. Sara doesn’t believe that Slade can kill all the men on the Amazo. Slade gets pissed and lifts Oliver off the ground. To distract him Sara hits him with a log. Slade regains a little sense. IVO contacts Sara on the Radio , while they are hiding from him. Sara goes to find Slade only to find that Slade left with the Mirakurru.

2x11- Sara and Oliver look for Slade at the Plane, he is not there.Sara wants to to take IVO’s deal. She for some reason believes him. Sara and Oliver are camping at the plane and talking of old times, Sara is unsure they will make it off the island. Oliver apologies for the gambit. Sara admits that she chose to go on the gambit.Then Slade goes off on his own and Oliver and Sara are alone. Sara then contacts IVO after Oliver falls asleep. Sara then realizes that IVO is nuts, and agrees to help Oliver, has a change of heart.

2x12-Sara and Oliver are still looking for Slade, Sara does not want to tell Slade the truth about Shado. They think Slade is in a cave.They find Slade, he is still on the verge of Mirakuru madness. Oliver then talks Slade down from the missile launcher, he wants to bomb the Amazo. Oliver says he will help him through the serum effects. They decide to take the freighter.

2x13 -was all about Sara flashbacks.

2x14- Sara, Slade and Oliver scope out the Amazo. They realize they don’t have time to build a raft to get over. Sara points out how many guards are on the boat, clearly thinks these guys are dangerous and that the three of them dont have a chance. Now again id point out that if Oliver was at the level of skill that training via Shado and Slade had given him, then with him ( at that level) and Slade( even in his madness) would have been able to get aboard with little problem. But Oliver was only given maybe a few months and a couple of days worth of fight training. Then the next they find a plane which explains Sin. The plane is pretty much useless. Sara then promises to find Sin and look after her. And Oliver finds find a parachute.

2x15-This is maybe a couple of days later, a week maybe. Oliver is working out, running and training with his bow, but no fight training because , they don’t have time and Slade most likely is in no shape to help him. Not to mention would probably lose himself in the training and kill Oliver. Sara herself says “Slade is unstable”. So all we see is Oliver Work out. He does get better with the bow though. Sara makes some nifty drugs she gleaned from training from IVO. Sara and Oliver agree to destroy the drug, and Slade then agrees as well. They burn the drug. They all drink before the mission, Sara and Oliver make promises to each other to tell there families.The next they prep to invade the boat. Oliver pretends to get caught to infiltrate the freighter. So he is now captured by IVO and being tortured. Sara and Slade parachute in. Sara goes to free the prisoners and Slade goes to kill the men, Oliver goes to find IVO. Slade deals with the men because he is the only one who can. Oliver runs into one guy and uses the same move that Slade taught him in Season 1. Oliver still shows the same limited skills that we see in Season 1. Except for the Bow. He gets maybe one move in akin to the one we see after a week with Slade. Slade finds out that Oliver was forced to choose, he and Slade fight , but he gets he ass kicked. Slade kicks him into the steering wheel , which forces the ship onto the rocks, the only reason Oliver gets away. Once on deck, Oliver grabs a guy running away and throws him overboard. Anatolyi fires off a gun and kills like 3 goons , one more shows up and Oliver fires an Arrow into the guys leg. he is warned about a guy behind him , then turns and shoots that guy with and arrow, rolls out of the way of a blade of some kind, comes up and shoots that guy with an Arrow.They all decide to jump ship and literally as Oliver is jumping Slade grabs him. He is captured by Slade. Slade chops off IVO’s hand, and we find out that Slade kept the drug, they only burned a box.

2x16- is all about the suicide squad and Diggle flashback.

2x17-So like 2 weeks later Oliver is still on the boat being held by Slade. So no possible way to learn any martial arts skills.Oliver is being tortured by Slade , and given a tattoo by a clearly untrained tattoo artist.Sara and the prisoners are back at the plane, Slade wants to trade Oliver for the ships engineer.Sara agrees to make the trade, Sara hits the engineer over the head with a crowbar

2x18- Sara is planning to make the trade, Sara decides to use the trade as a way to take out Slade. Sara decides to use the Land mines to kill Slade, via strapping it to the engineers chest, with Anatolyi’s KGB skills to do it. Oliver is still on the boat being tortured by Slade . Sara makes the trade , but her plan fails because Slade can smell the TNT. Slade decides to leave them all on the island. And tells them he is going to kill their families.

2x19-Oliver, after being released/freed, gets treated by Sara and takes the magic herbs of Yeoh Fei’s . Oliver finds out there is a cure for the Super human serum, and kills Ivo.

2x20-Flash backs about Oliver getting a girl pregnant and Moria bribing the girl.

2x21- 2 weeks later Sara, Oliver and the Russian guy are on the Sub and about to blow the Sub.And Sara gets captured.

2x22-Then he tries to rescue her and destroy the serum and gets captured, because it was clearly a trap by Slade.

2x23-Then the finale is him and Slade fighting and the only reason he won was the boat was going down and Slade got pinned. Then he ends up in Wallers care.

So that is Year 2 down , where Oliver was only given limited training. A few months worth added to the couple of days to a week that Slade had originally trained him. Plus Bow training from Shado. I don’t buy that Shado had time to teach him anything but the bow. Because again, had he been trained by her or Yeoh Fei , then he would have been a better fighter , and again there is NO WAY that they could have made him an expert in those few months between seasons, and during the flashbacks where exactly would he have had the time. Plus Shado is immediately caught and killed right away, and Slade goes nots for the majority of the season after he is critically injured .

Season 3- 3x01 Now again this is all real time. So what ever amount of months between the season 2 finale and Season 3 premiere, Oliver is being held by Argus and is chased by Maseo. So in real time months from finale of Season 2 , he gets his ass handed to him by Maseo . If he was trained extensively by Shado and by Slade he should have been able to handle Maseo or at least been able to hold his own. Ill grant you that Oliver got a couple of blocks in in his fight with Maseo but nope , still no actual fighting skills aside from the still limited skills that Slade taught him. Also Shado only taught Oliver a couple of words in Chinese and he doesn’t understand anything that Maseo says in Chinese. Id also like to mention that Maseo is a trained martial artists and argus agent. He is now , being watched by Maseo at his house .

3x02-Next episode right after Maseo is having him sniper Tommy. He captured Tommy with the help of Maeso.

3x03 was all about Thea.

3x04- Next episode 2 weeks later, He tracks and kills an old man with the help of Maseo. We learn that Tatsu hates Oliver.Then confronts Waller about the secret stuff and she tells him about China white.

3x05 was all about Felicity

3x06-2 weeks later again he is running after a guy in the market and fails to catch him. Gets help from Tatsu to remember what happened .

3x07-The next episode Maseo is missing and he and Tatsu go to find him and Tatsu does all the fighting or rather sword work. Oliver gets surprised buy one of the guys , then gets beat on. So if he had such extensive training by Slade, then why did he get the crap beat out of him. Tatsu comes to the rescue. The whole time she is sword killing guys he is on the ground after getting the tar beat out of him. Oliver is attempting to learn chinese . When they return to Tatsu’s home , Maseo is already there.

3x08- He learns how to torture people, or rather just tortures the guy. and fails to get the info.A bomb goes off because he did not torture the man. Oliver gets a second chance and decides to start torturing people because he thinks Waller may be right.

3x09- He finds out about the Alpha/Omega. They capture a scientist guy , he does it with Maseo’s help. Not with much trouble they just tricked him. Tatsu gets captured.

3x10-Waller sends Oliver and Maseo after the Alpha/Omega. Olive takes a guy down with a slap to the face from his bow as the guy comes up around the corner, shoves him into the wall and throws him to the ground. And it turns out that he put a tracker on the goon.

3x11 - He and Maseo are in a club trying to find Tatsu.Id like to point out that Oliver says “ that is a lot of muscle in front of that door”. So if he has such extensive training by Slade , then he should not be concerned about said muscle. During the fight Oliver hits a guy with a chair. Throws a guy into the dance floor and grabs his gun. shoots one guy , jumps on the bar and shoots another. Tatsu , throws a knife with deadly accuracy. Oliver is still on the level of skill he had at the beginning of the island. Because if he was on the present Oliver skill level , the he would have done more then just hit a guy with a chair.

3x12-Was all about how Merlyn went to join the League. Now id like to point out that when he gets there he meets Nyssa , who is training with a member of the League , she is maybe 11-12, so her father ( Ra’s Al Ghul ) has her training since she could pick up a weapon, a time when in this episode Oliver , around that age is shown to be comforting his childhood friend Tommy during Tommy’s mother’s death. So Nyssa has been training since CHILDHOOD. And i really doubt that her father would have had her stop, or let her do anything else, since she is meant to be his heir. And Oliver has maybe a few months and a couple of weeks of actually training in his 5 year journey. Let me also point out that she beat the guy who was teaching her the sword. So Oliver is the better fighter is nonsense, because with the training that he got on the island and through out the flashback time frame he has limited skills and then miraculously is an expert upon his return?.

3x13- Tatsu and Maseo are leaving and Oliver gets captured by Waller. Kay now Oliver gets chased by the ARGUS guys , shoves one guy into some barrels , punches another , then runs away again. He gets tackled and then tasered. No Shado/Slade trained skill used. If he had any the extensive skills via Slade , then why was he running? Why not fight them and win?Oliver gets tortured and gives up the Yamashiros. Maseo gets caught, but the difference is that he let him self get caught to rescue Oliver.

3x14- Oliver and Maseo are now working for Waller yet again. He pays a visit to Thea , in the shadows of course, to check up on her. Oliver sneaks into Queen Consolidated with no trouble since they have rent-a cops and he knows the place, plus he had help from Maseo.He kills a drug dealer with the same moves that Slade taught him in Season 1 or 2. But again a drug dealer with no fighting abilites at all. Oliver tries to run, because he believes that he can hide from Waller, but Waller needs his help. Then after coming to help Maseo with a gun,jumps off a building onto the back end of a moving vehicle and shoots it. The only reason that China white did not fight, was because her car had crashed. gets immediately handed over to General Shrieve.

3x15- Oliver is being debriefed by the general , The Yamashiros are attacked and Oliver covers them with a gun. He then takes Akkio and runs, since Wallers men are after them. Maseo and Tatsu go off in a different direction.

3x16- OLiver spends his time on the run with Akio, and meets Shados twin.So while he is on the run , how exactly would he have time to train?

3x17- was all about the suicide squad

3x18- Oliver is staying with Shados twin and trying to explain to her who is after her. Argus guys show up and again he shows the Season 1 level of hand to hand because he land maybe 2 or 3 punches and then gets thrown into a wall. He then retruns the favor, and lands a couple more punches but another dude shows up with a gun then Maseo and Tatsu come to the rescue yet again.

3x19- The Yamishiros and Oliver are still on the run, Oliver then goes back to Wallers hideout and has little trouble getting in since the General’s men were already there and pretty much all of Wallers men are dead. Then Oliver and co break into the generals lab/base and Oliver surprises a guard , so still Season 1 level skill. Plus the guy clearly was just a rent-a guard and did not even fight back. They then decide to go after the General and his men.

3x20- Now Oliver and co are after a moving truck , Oliver tries to jump to the truck and fails, lands behind the car he is on in the first place. later he manages to get aboard with the help of Maseo who shoots while driving. Once aboard Oliver throws one guy out of the truck, then another . he blocks the other guys punches but this is still Season 1 level because these guys are holding there own against him and they are clearly not special forces trained guys. Also Tatsu ended up coming to his aid again. She says “ you look like you could use a hand” , if he was extensively trained by Slade for more than few months then he would not need anyone’s help. He broke the other guys arm with a roll move, another move he learned from Slade. Tatsu gets info from a still living soldier. Then he faces a guy in the market place , to get the vial of Omega, and this guy had some level of Martial arts skill and Oliver gets his butt kicked yet again.mostly Oliver was dodging and blocking, he did flip the guy like maybe 2 times, but still got beat. So again still at Season 1-2 skill here. If he was trained by Shado, Yeoh Fei or Maseo then he would have no problem with that guy.

3x21- Oliver and co are in china still and the Omega virus is in the air. They start a fire fight in the middle of the market . Tatsu makes it to the truck and takes out 2 of the guys, Oliver gets grabbed from behind and can’t get free, Tatsu slices the guy from behind. Again Tatsu to the rescue. They blow up the truck and go back to akio . Then as they are attempting to flee the city , Akio becomes sick.

3x22-Oliver and co are dealing with the fact that Akio is dying. Oliver and Maseo go after the general and Oliver then takes down 2 guards via firing arrows from his bow. They bring the general to Akio , but hes dead.

3x23- Finale- Oliver and co are attacked by the Generals men, Oliver then slams the general into a wall , throws him to the ground and starts punching him over and over. First guy through the door is shot by Maseo, then the second goes the same way. Oliver then hides behind a counter, shoots a guy with his bow and and uses this guy for a shield to get near the other guy , then trips that guy and starts pounding on him with his bow. Like just keeps slamming it down on the guy. Really all i see is a bunch of brawling, he only uses a couple of moves he got from Slade , but in no way was this Present Oliver level skill. He then starts torturing the general. Then lastly after Maseo leaves Tatsu and Oliver part ways.

So in no way was he trained by Maseo or Tatsu and he definitely had no skills from Shado, aside from the bow.

Season 4- Episode 1-Again this is real time. So months later after Season 3 Oliver is now in Coast City trying to be an early incarnation of the Arrow. he’s chasing down a drug dealer on a rooftop. The guy pulls a gun and fires , Oliver hides behind some sort of object on the roof. When the guy stops firing he rushes the guy. The guy then ducks out of Oliver’s reach and punches Oliver in the face. Then the guy grabs Oliver and throws him off the roof where Oliver lands tangled up in wires and meets Waller. Where exactly was Oliver’s supposed skill. I mean if he had been trained by Shado, Maseo and Yeoh Fei ( which we know he was not) then that would never have happened.Waller then drugs Oliver and he ends up on a plane with ARGUS men. They then kick Oliver in the face and throws him off the plane. So again where is the skill he supposedly has. He was never afraid of gunfire before ( when he ran at those armed goons with no skill on the amazo)and if he had extensive training from Slade and Shado then those ARGUS guys would have been no problem. And hes back on the Island.

4x02- Oliver is on the island again as per Wallers request. He uses a move he learned from Slade on this goon in fatigues , who clearly had no skill at all and did not even really fight back. Oliver is told by Waller to infiltrate the labor camp on the island. Okay now he going under cover, so where will he have time to learn ANY fighting here, and these guys are in no way going to teach him. They have no Martial arts background, they are just goons with guns. Then he gets taken to the camp goon leader. The leader gives Oliver a job because he thought that he was doing the surviving all alone, which he was not alone, but regardless Oliver obviously takes the job. Now Oliver is one of the goons with a gun.

4x03-Oliver is still playing goon with a gun, obviously under cover. He chases down a prisoner who tries to escape. He and the other goon drag the prisoner back . They question all the prisoners , and Conklin kills a prisoner. Oliver decides that the best way to get info is to torture a prisoner, a skill he was already good at via General Shrive, and learned from Waller, we saw that. The girl Tatiana , confesses to taking the drugs to save the other prisoner, Oliver intervenes and agrees to kill her himself. Oliver takes her through the woods, and leads the men following into a mine trap. He was shown to know where the mines were since Slade showed him and he accidentally stepped on one in Season 1.

4x04-Oliver takes Taiana ( think is how you spell her name) to the same cave Yeoh Fei brought him to. He then tries to convince Ridier/the baddie that the girl is dead. Saying he killed her. Then brings Conklin to the body, in which he has used the pressure point touch on Taiana, a skill Yeoh Fei never taught him, though Yeoh Fei did USE on him. Then Conklin finds the ARGUS tech left for Oliver.

4x05- Conklin confronts Oliver about the ARGUS tech. And now, Constantine is on the Island looking for some sort of septer. Now Constantine takes out Conklin with one punch, so we know these goons are just that, goons with guns. he takes Oliver hostage, and Oliver does nothing because he needs to maintain cover. Now Constantine gets the septer and then Constantine uses a spell to transfer his tattoo to Oliver.

4x06-Oliver takes Conklin and Baron Riter to the magic chamber. Riter finds some magic letters, or writing. Orders Oliver to take workers to a cove and find some sort of magic thing. Oliver and Conklin are at the cove, Oliver orders the prisoners to take a break and he goes to eat alone. Or rather goes to talk to Taianna. Conklin convinces Taianna’s brother to try and kill Oliver. Oliver brings dinner to Tianna , and asks about magic with her. Tells her he will return. Oliver goes back to the shore only to be attacked by the guy Conklin convinced to attack him. And yet again Oliver uses the same move he used on the drug dealer in Season 3 flash back, limited training he learned from Slade , on a guy who had zero training.

4x07-Oliver now finds out that he killed Tianna’s brother. Oliver and Conklin argue over the reason for killing Tianna’s brother. Riter uses magic on Conklin to find out he is lying. Oliver then whips Coklin. Then Oliver goes to tell Tianna her brother is dead but does not tell her that he is the one who did it. Then Oliver realizes that he needs a dive instructor to get to a map from inside the Amazo, which is half under water.

4x08- was all about Vandal Savage.

4x09-Oliver takes Tianna to the Amazo, admits that he is using her for her diving skills. Now Oliver free dives to the Amazo. Also id mention that Tianna literally mentions that “ i dont see how you can free dive after only an hour of instruction.”. now I’ll maybe give him that because if you can swim and have a good set of lungs , i suppose that is not that hard. Oliver gets the map from the Amazo , swims out and gets attacked right away by a shark. And gets caught by Conklin. How would Oliver have been able to learn anything if he is ill, injured and yet again locked up

4x10- Conklin is marching Oliver, who has a Shark bite in his side, along with Tianna back to the Baron’s camp to show that Oliver is in fact a traitor. Oliver collapes and needs Tianna to help him walk because he is losing lots of blood. The three of them are back in camp and Oliver is proven to be a liar and traitor. Conklin then Whips his back in return for Oliver doing it to him. Oliver’s Chinese/Mandarin tattoo starts glowing and the Baron guy decides that Oliver needs to be kept alive. Oliver takes Conklin’s gun and , barely being able to stand decides to turn the gun on himself. The Baron allows Oliver to live in return for helping him find what he is looking for. Oliver is then taken to the prison on the island , again needing Tianna to help him walk. Then he and Tianna are left alone so Tianna can tend to his wounds. How would Oliver have been able to learn anything if he is ill, injured and yet again locked up

4x11- Diggle Flash Backs about his brother.

4x12- Oliver is yet again chained up and being tortured , and is still injured from his Shark attack. The baron guy wants to know why Oliver wanted the maps that he stole from the Amazo wreckage. Then Oliver begins to halucinate that Shado is still alive and rescues him. Its only a vision , she tells him to continue the journey and go through his darkness. Seems his darkness is guilt.Oliver is awake now and still in the cell. And now he confesses that he killed Tianna’s brother. How would Oliver have been able to learn anything if he is ill, injured and yet again locked up

4x13- Oliver is still in the cell, still very sick and injured, Tianna is furious and wants to let him die. She takes the stone totem from him intending to give it to the Baron. The Baron does not care , he wants Oliver to live so he can use him. So he demands that Tianna care for him, if he dies in her care she will die. Tianna cares for Oliver. The two of them compare past losses. She tells him that he is shattered, that if he wants to save them he cannot do it shattered. The Baron tells them that what they are looking for is under their feet. Oliver has regain some strength. How would Oliver have been able to learn anything if he is ill, injured and yet again locked up

4x14- Oliver has healed it seems. and he is digging in some wall to find something of the Baron’s. The other prisoners want to kill Oliver, but Tianna intervenes. The prisoners decide that the only way for them to trust Oliver is for Oliver to kill Conklin. Oliver does not want to , but Tianna tells him that only monsters can fight monsters. Oliver has Conklin alone. They fight , but Oliver still is using the same moves that he learned from Slade in those “few months” ; also i would add that Conklin was on equal footing or rather skill because he blocked or dodged just about all of Oliver’s moves. Also it looked like Conklin had sliced Oliver’s leg.Then Oliver throws Conklin into a wall and the knife gets embedded into Conklin’s chest in the momentum.Oliver kills Conklin, and then gets locked up again. Again, how would he be able to learn any Martial Arts when he is now under constant watch , when he is being used as manual labor.

4x15- Oliver is still in a cell with Tianna. Oliver is limping via his leg would from Conlkin. Oliver, Tianna and the Baron are at the dig site in the prison and get visited by the spooky ghost/demon/apparition of Conklin. The apparition says that no one shall pass, the guards shoot it or rather through it. the Baron leaves Oliver and Tianna in the dig site alone with the apparition. The apparition says that Oliver is worthy to pass, once it sees the tattoo that Constantine gave Oliver. I’d like to add that without that tattoo he would have never been deemed worthy, because that is the reason the spooky ghost said he was worthy. Baron returns and Oliver is pissed at being left, then they all go into the spooky catacombs.

Then we are at another break. so we are already almost half through the fourth year of Oliver’s journey and he has yet to be trained in anything.

4x16- Oliver Tianna and the Baron Riter are exploring the catacombs. We learn a bit about the Barons past. They are looking at some sort of bust. The Baron then shoots one of , what was one of his own men, or another hostage. And once the man is dead, his soul , transfers into the statue/bust. the Baron wants to use the bust to control people, and decides to shoot all the prisoners .Oliver , with one punch knocks out a guard and then shoves the Baron against the stone wall and throws him to the ground. Oliver and Tianna then run off with the bust. They are running through the tunnels, Tianna tries to destroy the bust and nothing happens. The only way out is back the way they came and through the Baron. Some of the Barons goons show up and Oliver drops down from the ceiling, and takes out the 1st goon with the same moves he has been using from Season 1, two goons who have shown no ability to fight. And right before the 2nd shoots Oliver , Tianna hits him over the head with the bust. So while he is running with Tianna and hiding from The Baron, exactly when will he learn these Martial Arts skills? He cannot , because he will not have time and there is no one to train him.

4x17- Oliver meets with the Baron unarmed, then Tianna shows up with two hand guns , giving one to Oliver. Baron wants the idol , they will not give it to him. Tianna shoots him only to find out he cannot be hurt.Seems he now controls special energy that flows through all things,killing people to gain power. Oliver still refuses to give up the idol , then Baron then throws Tianna against a wall with his magic powers. Oliver tries to fight the Baron in hand to hand. Oliver loses badly. He used none of the supposed skills he learned from Shado or yeoh Fei, not even the limited skills he learned from Slade.He was literally just throwing punches ( i would like to add that The baron was using no magical powers) he was only throwing punches as well) Then he lifts Oliver off the ground with super strength or something. But the strentgh fails and he drops Oliver. And while the man is distracted Oliver punches him and knocks him out.Oliver then checks to see if Tianna is okay, she is , but when she wakes up they both realize that the Baron is gone.They realize that the Baron is now searching for the Idol , so they decide to go and kill all of his men and free Tianna’s friends, by killing the guards. So he has spent more time merely trying to stay alive , and no one to teach him more styles of martial arts.

4x18- Oliver is still in the caves with Tianna , telling her they are out numbered and that when they face the Barons men they cannot hesitate to kill. Oliver tells her about how he used to look at Laurels photo when he first arrived on the island , like she is doing with the photo of her brother. He tells her it reminded him of who he was, but that man would not survive on the island. It was what Yeoh Fei told him. ( that is one thing i do believe he got from Shado's father. that saying, that belief.) She agrees, and they both head off to take out the Barons men. Tianna screams to get the guards attention and runs out of the tunnel, telling the guards that the apparition of Conklin killed Oliver. Two of the Guards go in the tunnel and there is gunfire, Oliver kills the men with , an UZI and psitol . Tianna kills the last guard with her own pistol. The Oliver comes out of the tunnel and then uses the UZI and pistol to kill the other guards who show up from the side door. Tianna then goes to work on freeing the prisoners. ( I want to add that, Oliver in Season 2 flash back, on the boat was not afraid to run into the gunfire with only his bow and limited training from Slade. Again if he was trained by Shado, where were these fighting abilites now? he was in a tunnel and had places to hide) . The bodies then get dragged into the empty cells. Oliver shoots another guard that shows up. Some guards then show up via the upper level catwalk, and the prisoners with guns then fire back at them. Tianna kills one with her hand gun. Oliver moves by the door way that the guard is coming out of, smacks him in the faces with his gun then grabs him by the collar and trhows him to the ground, then shoots him. He tells the prisoners to get to the surface and go for the boats. Oliver decides to use the C4 to trap the Baron instead of trying to stop him. Oliver then preps the C4 to bring the catacombs down on the Barons head and trap him. He shows Tianna the picture he still has of Laurel. Tianna tells him that if he does not make it she will find Laurel and tell how he saved them all, and he must go to Russia to tell her parents about herelf and Vlad. Oliver fires off the C4 and buries the Baron inside the catacombs. He kills his own men and steals their life force or something to help him live.

4x19- was a flash back about Tommy's funeral.

4x20- no flashbacks.

4x21- Oliver and Tianna are in the middle of the camp while the Baron's men are dhooting everyone. Oliver shoots one guard in the back. Oliver then finds a map in the camp that shows a plane. He takes a back pack and a machine gun and he and Tianna run for it.They meet up with another prisoner, who tells them that they drove some of the guards off but the baron is sending reinforcements, the baron is alive. Oliver decides to stay behind and take on the baron alone. Oliver is standing in the middle of the camp later that night, waiting for the baron. The baron uses his magic to rip the machine gun out of Oliver's hand. And telekinetically throw him across the camp and through a hut. Oliver comes running back through and starts punching the baron. He literally punches him, then completely misses, and falls to the ground. The baron throws him, magically against another hut. Oliver then stabs him with a blade of some kind, which has zero effect, the Baron lifts him up off the ground by his neck. Oliver , before the baron stabs him, is saved by Tianna, who shoots the knife out of his hand. Both Oliver and Tianna unload the entire clips of both hand gun and machine gun into him. Oliver talls Tianna to get the Idol , then throws a gernade at the baron, which also has no effect. They take the idol and run. After Oliver and Tianna are on the run, Tianna is affected by the Idol.

4x22-Oliver and Tianna are still walking through the woods. Riters men get the drop on them and Oliver gets shot in the back. Tianna gets riddled with bullets. Oliver shoots the guys with his machine gun. Tianna is healed by the Idol power. So men put a bunch of holes in Tianna but only put a small hole in Oliver's arm? Tianna is now as crazy as Riter. She wants to use the idol's power to save her village/town in Russia to stop something called the Kovar. The whole area is a gun fight , people are shooting at each other. Oliver and Tianna come in firing, Tianna scares some men away with her glowing eyes. Oliver then tells the people to go to a plane that is east. He wants to help a injured man, she wants to shoot him. His death will make her stronger. Oliver takes the gun from her, she thinks she is the only one who can stop Riter. She needs the mans life force, his power. She then throws Oliver a huge distance, and snaps the injured man's neck.Tianna wants the idol back that Oliver now has, riter wants it as well, Tianna's eyes glow as she stands next to Oliver.

4x23-another week later and Oliver is still face to face with Riter, tianna behind him.Riter shoots Oliver in the leg. Oliver tells him that they plane overhead has all the prisoners on it. Riter tells him it does not, and he uses magic to destroy the plane. Tianna gets taken down by riter. Oliver takes Riters knife but gets thrown across the forest. Riter then uses the magic to start taking away Tianna's life force. She then counters , using it on him, then Oliver throws a knife into his back. Then Tianna starts to be affected by the magic she was using. Oliver tries to reason with her , but she throws him into a tree. She starts to choke him and tells him he is a murderer and darkness. She tells him to kill her. And Oliver mercy kills Tianna. The remaining prisoners from the island are furious with him. Oliver tells the people that the idol is responible and that Tianna asked him to kill her. Annd Amanda Waller shows up because Oliver radios her.Waller crates up the artifact and then sends it to some lab. And Oliver is off to Russia.

SO that is the end of Season 4 and Olvier spent the entire time undercover. No training at all.

We are now back and on to S5.

5x01- Oliver is in a fight ring , fighting for money it seems. Fighting some huge Russian guy. And he is dont even using the supposed skills he learned from Shado, Yoeh Fei and Maseo. Not even using the limited skills he got from Slade. In fact it is just a bunch of trading punches. And this Russian does not look to have any skill at all. He is getting the crap beat out of him.The to end it Oliver uses the exact same move he used on the petty drug dealer in S3, back in Star City flash back. Then gets tasered and captured by the Bratva. When we see him again he is tied to a chair and the Russian tells him that his Russian is terrible. So much for great Language skills. He tells Anatoly when he rescued Oliver from the Bratva, ( and Oliver needed rescuing. So much for skills there) Anatoly teaches him how to dislocate his thumbs to get free ( we actually see someone teach Oliver something. Shocking) . Oliver tells Anatoly that he is here to kill Kovar for Tianna. Anatoly takes Oliver to a gang of Russian bratva men. Who he now has to fight in order to begin the process of intitaiton into the bratva. They start hammering on him, and he gets his ass handed to him. One literally flips Oliver onto the ground and stabs him. None of these guys seem to have any skills,martial arts skills aside from that of thugs. And Oliver was trained for a few months by Slade and is losing this fight. You cannot give the “ he was out number excuse” because Oliver in the flash backs has been out numbered before, and still not used the supposed skills he learned from the others. BECAUSE he did not learn from any of them. This is the final year of the time Oliver was away and he still has not learned any of the stuff that he supposely knows in the present. Natural ability my ass.

5x02-When next we meet Oliver , he has lost the fight with the gang of Bratva guys. He and some others are taken to a warehouse of some kind. They have to ring a bell, but to do it they have to get through a few Bratva guys. Oliver gets hit really hard in the chest with a night skick of some kind. His Slade skills seem to be absent here, other wise he would have been able to take that guy. Given Slade was ASIS. The guy did not even try , he just swung and hit Oliver in the chest. And then as Oliver is attempting to get up the guy cracks him across the face. They continue the training, mele vesion. Men are being thrown and smashed against walls. This time around Oliver blocks a easy punch and cracks the guy across the face with a stick. Ducks another easy puch and punches the guy in the chest. And punches him in the face to drop him. Goes to help a man up and that man then kicks one of the offenders. And Oliver made a friend. Next we see them , all the inciates are down and Oliver gets kicked in the side while he is down. They all, including Oliver limp back to the “line”. Oliver concludes that they need to work as a team to diverte their attention in order to ring the bell. The others agree. The others dsitract the offenders , while Oliver ; dodging another easy swing gets by and rings the bell. Oliver makes it but wonce he does the others are executed because they did not. Oliver is upset bc he did not expect the others to be killed. Like WTF, who the hell do you think you are dealing with you idiot. Only person you can trust is yourself is what anatoly says. He reopens a wound and passes out. Zero martial arts skills he suppsoedly learned from Shado, etc are used. The limited stuff he got from Slade was of no use otherwise he would have no trouble with the Bratva guys and would not have needed the other initiats to help him. More bullshit flash backs to expain his god hood.

5x03- Oliver wakes up possibly days later from passing out via his reopening of his wounds. Oliver is questioning whether becoming Bratva was a mistake . Do you think? Oliver doesn't trust the Bratva because he thought the men that were killed in the bell test were inocent. He is told he can leave if he wants. Anatoly takes Oliver to meet a elderly woman who wanted the man who killed her son. The Bratva killed him, one of the men that was executed when Oliver won the bell test ; with their help. In order to defeat Kovar Oliver needs an army and apparently Bratva is the army; an army of thugs? Bratva means brother hood. Brother hood is everything. They will do anything for you. Oliver is to trust the brotherhood , but in the present cannot trust anyone? They are going to cut him up. They all take turns cutting him in a very specific point on his back. Oliver was wounded and was cut up even more, was not trained in anyway except maybe on taking injuries.

5x04- Oliver has passed the next test and now is in a van with Anatoly. He is still wounded, and could possibly pull out his stiches/sutchres. Second test was the knife thing, trusting his brothers ( which makes zero sense in the grand scheme of things). Oliver is going to go after a man that will get him closer to Kovar, man will be arraingned in the morning. He dumps vodka on Oliver to make it look like he has been drinking. Oliver has always been a drunk, rather had experience wtih hangovers so this won't be very difficult for him. And he gets him self arreseted.Oliver is now in jail with a bunch of Russian dudes and the guy that he is trying to get to. The guys name is Fretken ( something like that , its hard to hear.) The guy recognizes Oliver as Bratva. He punches the guy ( a guy unaware with no clear fighting skills ) in the chest or the throat. Given how he is choking , it looks like it was in the throat. The guy is not scared because clearly Kovar is scarier. But its a case of im in here with you not him. Oliver threatens his family instead of the man himself. Oliver tells him to choose between them and Kovar. He gives Oliver the IP address to the deaddrop site Kovar uses. Then Oliver uses the EXACT same move ( the one he uses every fucking season) the one that Slade taught him to snap the guys neck. No shit the same fucking move. The guards don't care to much and take the body out. Oliver comes back to the van and tells Anatoly that he killed the man , shows remores. Third test was apparently them trusting Oliver to do what they say. Oliver is now Bratva. Yet again No training for Oliver.

5x05- Oliver is brought before the Bratva leaders, basically they are questioning him. They want to see if he knows what it means to be Bratva. Basically he is noting but bratva. And now oliver is a mobster. So he went from a playboy to a survivor, to a freelancer , now to a mobster. Oliver and Anatoly drink to being survivors of the Amazo, in a Russian ( bratva run probs) bar. Victor doesn't trust Oliver , that he is truly Bratva and he is right. He still sees Oliver as an outsider. And Oliver and Anatoly drink again after Victor leaves. Still drinking. Soo Oliver still has not told Tianna's family that she is dead. Shcker. A girl in the bar is going to be hurt by fellow Bratva men and Oliver is going to intervene. Oliver is left in the alley way alone with Bratva members that hate him and work for Victor. The Girl was a trick. They slam Oliver against the wall and he gets beat on. So where was the Slade level skills there? He would never have been hurt like that had he been as good as Slade taught him. Oliver is saved by what i can only assume is the “human Target” because he starts speaking American.Correct it was the Human Target. Anatoly hired him to prtect Oliver and deal with Victor.

5x06-Oliver is sitting with Anatoly and teaching him to make a bomb, since he was in the KGB. Oliver states that he failed Chemistry twice in school, but apparently he does have magical powers to learn this, since presnent he knows it. Bullshit. He tells Oliver that he must become like a sponge, that bratva spends off hours learning many trades. More bullshit. He is going to learn this all in a few months. Then he screws up and nearly blows himself and everyone up. Anatoly saves the day by tossing it in a trashcan. So clearly Oliver is horrible at this. A car drives by and shoots up the place and Oliver tackles Anatoly to save him.Apparently Kovar declared war on the Bratva. Oliver is upset that Anatoly did not tell him that Kovar was planning this. Some high raking Bratva memeber arives ; Pakhan Gergor. They know who he is and seems they allowed him in, though Oliver thinks he earned his place. Gergor wants Oliver to be an investor to Kovar , to get closer to him. Once inside he wants Oliver to blow the new Casino up. Oliver is playing the Pre Oliver , telling them how to make the casino sucessful. Oliver has his Russian friend show the other guy the money then while he has his back turned slams the UNAWARE guy face first into a table. Removes the money tray and reveals a bomb, Then points out where to set the charges for maximum damage. Then as they are setting the charges a guy gets the drop on Oliver, hitting him over the head with a gun. (if Oliver was so extensivily trained by Shado, Maseo and Slade even Yao fei then that guy would never have gotten the drop on him.) Oliver is now strapped to a chair, getting beaten up by Kovars men.Kovar himself is there., telling him a story about his mother and grandfather. The story of the turnip is basically a story that the bratva will never take him down. He steps forward and snaps the neck of Olivers bratva pal. And apparently Kovar has known all about Oliver Queen. So the only thing that Oliver has learned is how to fail at making a bomb. And gets beat up by Russia thugs that again clearly have no skills other than that.

5x07- Oliver is now sitting at a table , tied up by Kovars men. They remove the hood and cut his hands free. Oliver is shaking and clearly been beaten/ tortured. Kovar states that Oliver has been tortured for a week straight. Oliver discovers that Tianna's mother is working as a maid for Kovar. Oliver believes that Tianna was right that Kovar is a monster. Kovar says diferently. Shocker. Kovar calls Oliver on killing geogor in the prison, calling Oliver a monster for blindly obeying the bratva. A lie so the Bratva could steal the mans buisness. Oliver gave a IPS black market site to the bratva , now they control it. Oliver stabs Kovar in the hand with a knife. The guards pull a gun on Oliver, he then demands that Kovar get him out of there. So if Oliver is such a master fighter bad ass; extensivly trained by Slade, Yao fei , Shado and Maseo, then how was he not able to easlity take them down and get out himsel? And all the sudden Oliver is behind Kovar. Saying he will open his throat if he twitches. And Oliver is limping as well. He has 2 guns , one pointed at the men behind him and one pointed at Kovars back. Oliver then runs into three more men with guns. Kovar implies that the Bratva were merly using him for what little value Oliver could provide. Or option 3 Oliver is too weak to know the differene. I.E Oliver was never really Bratva, and an idiot. Truth and shocker. Kovar then easily takes the gun from Oliver. Oliver then surrenders, When if he really was such a extensivly trained bad ass then he could have easily busted out. Oliver is being held by two men in the same hallway , swaying on his feet. Oliver challenges Kovar, then gets elbowed in the face for his trouble by Kovar. Oliver goes down. Kovar commands his men to stay out if it, they do. Kovar then Punches Oliver twice exteremly hard once in the face then in the stomach. Once more in the face.Oliver takes a swing and Kovar blocks it and reigns down another punch. Punches Oliver across the face again, then he gets turned around and held in a chock hold. Then Kovar throws Oliver to the floor. Oliver then gets up and starts blocking like a boxer. Preventing Kovar from getting a shot to his sides or face. Oliver then blocks a punch from Kovar and lands a pucnh to Kovars gut. He ducks another Punch from Kovar and lands a punch of his own in Kovars face. Then another. (id also add that these are all the same type of punches oliver used in his fight with Slade, nothing but haymakers. Not the supposed extensive fighting skills gained by training with Slade,etc.) Kovar then gains the upser hand again, blocking Olivers next punch. Then lands two more of his own dropping Oliver to the ground again. Kovar then yanks Oliver up to his knees and is about to punch him when a member of the Bratva arrives. He basically confirms what Kovar stated that the Bratva are in league with Kovar. Oliver is barely standing on his knees. I.E Oliver is a moron. So once again if Oliver was so extensivly trained by Slade, Shado , Maseo and yao Fei in fighting then why is it he is getting his ass handed to him by these Russian thugs. He should have been able to easily taking them down.

5x08- crossover ep

5x09-Oliver S1 present Flash Back.

5x10 – Oliver is taken by the Bratva guys and they are interogating him, Oliver is introuble for just trying to kill Kovar but not for the bratva, Oliver turns it around saying they , the bratva are betraying the Bratva brotherhood for having a deal with Kovar. Kovar is a government agent. Oliver vendetta betrays the bratva, the Bratva leaders deal benifets the brotherhood. This guy is ( captain i think) and he is going to get oliver to obey , even if it means to beat it into him.Guy finds a pic of Laurel , and thinks the vendetta is about Laurel. Oliver explains Laurel's picture. Oliver thinks he has been made into a mosnter. The Bratva Captain may have betrayed the Bratva, Kovar has him on his payroll. They then start beating him. Oliver has only been in Russia for a few months, and apparently thinks he knows everything. Shocker. Oliver does not believe that the Bratva Captain is playing Kovar. Oliver does not understand that circumstance makes a thing posion or Nector . ( weird line) Without the island Oliver would be a harmless american douche bag. Obviously. Oliver has to give his obediance or he dies. Again obviously. Before he can kill Oliver, shots are heard and arrows as well. Bratva guy/Captain takes Oliver hostage to use as a shield. An arrow is fired and hits the guy, pinning his hand to the wall as well as throwing him against it as well. ( BS.) A woman appears in LOA gear and it looks like Laurel but is actually Talia Al Ghul .She only says “ Hello, Mr. Queen my name is Talia. Ive been Looking for you. “ she does not yet say her last name. Hopefully not. Because that would make zero sense. She has an accent and WAY cooler gear than Nyssa. So once more. If Oliver is so extensivly trained by Slade,Shado and Maseo in fighting then how did he get his ass handed to him by these Bratva thugs? Why did he need Talia to rescue him? And present wise: “ Im a quick study”? That is utter Bullshit, these flash backs prove otherwise.

5x11-The Talia ep. Basically Talia trained Yao Fei and he was LOA; Seriously!? And Talia is an archer ( shocking with this show). She wants to train Oliver, and they make a deal; she helps him take down a man from the Bratva/Russia and he will listen to what she has to say. Talia fires an arrow and draws the gaurds to her. Oliver takes on the main guys. Oliver takes one easy henchman down and uses him as a shield. Then shoots the other ones. Throws one guy like hurls him. And then shoots him. Using none of the supposed fighting skills he has learned. Takes on a few more using the skills he learned from Slade. Knees one guy into a car using what is similar to the anarky fight steroids. Oliver then beats the leader to death with a gun while Talia smiles. Really did she even do anything. She fired one arrow to what distract them? And now that he has killed the guy she and Oliver can talk. Talia baited him to get Oliver to remember who he is, a monster. Oliver's father wrote a list of all the Kovars, etc in Star City. But Oliver keeps looking for other fights. She tells Oliver she has been there ( she was afraid of what her father wanted for her.) She pulls out his S1 present suit, she gave him it. She tells him that when the monster becomes someone else, something else that he is free to be Oliver Queen. WTF! Also utterly disappointing because it would have been cooler if he made the suit and bow himself. Talia will help him become ready. UGH

5x12- So Apparently within 1 episode Oliver can remember that he can catch an arrow and throw an enemy up into a ceiling?? Apparently “ believing in the dark and embracing it means he can instantly become a weapon?” BS. So apparently his other teachers agreed that Oliver was not that great of a student. Talia found him because she wants him to correct his mistakes. To return home. Oliver hunts down one of the men on the “list “ and kills him in cold blood. He failed starling city. It seems once again we are to assume that Oliver trained with Talia and became a fantastic student in like one episode? He is basically doing the same shit as previous seasons. No actual training. He crosses off a name on the list. Talia wants him to honor the vow he made to his father and not the Bratva. Oliviver wants to talk to anatoly. Anatoly is beaten up, badly. Gregor did it to him because he questioned his deal with Kovar. Oliver wants to kill Gregor. Oliver was going to leave the Bratva. LITERALLY no training. So apparently Talia is just teaching him to become a monster; to embrace the darkness?

5x13- Wild dog flash backs.

5x14-Oliver is planning to take down Gregor with Anatoly in the infirmary ( medical facility?) , to take down gregor and a bathhouse. Anatoly says no, that bathouse is gregors turf. That they need an army. Basically they need an army loyal to only Anatoly. Oliver tells him that he will stay until he takes out gregor. Anatoly then realizes that Oliver has changed his mind about the bratva brother hood thing. Anatoly states that Oliver is the “sin eater” . Oliver notices that the same orderly has passed by the room 5 times. Gregor is about to attack.. Oliver takes Anatoly through the hospital, a guy pops out and fire a gun , Oliver and Anatoly duck into a corridor with stairs. The Russian THUG ( who only has a gun and clearly no training.) enters the same stair way, where Oliver takes him by surprise, and throws him against the wall,and hits him in the troat. Then takes his gun. They make their way down the stairs, and Oliver ( somehow knows there is a guy coming when there is no sound) turns and shoots the second guy coming through. They make it through to the basement area, through some plastic stips. They see another guy coming behind them and take cover. Anatoly states that the coup against gregor maybe short lived. Oliver states that they are going to have to make a run for it. ( okay why? If Oliver is supposedly this bad ass fighterand killer already? If he is supposedly so extensively trained by the past people) 2 guys? Oliver is going to run from 2 guys? Greogor himself is there and states that he will forgive him if he hands over Oliver. Oliver is about to surrender, because if he does Gregor will spare Anatorly. Okay again Oliver is afraid of these guys? When he is supposedly so extensively trained?? Only one will get out alive. Anatoly states that he is not going to let Oliver suffer for his sins. Oliver gets up and is about to surrender. Oliver puts his gun down. Oliver reaches forward and grabs the gun from the worst trained Bratva guy ever. Then uses him as a human shield as he shoots the other men. Not anything we have not seen before in S1. Anatoly tries to reach for a gun but Gregor stops him and puts a gun to his head. Obviously Oliver is going to shoot Gregor. Oliver yet again has not trained at all with Talia or anyone. All Talia has really done is give Oliver a verbal push into the right direction, something that he SHOULD have already known.

5x15- Oliver saves Anatoly by coming up behind gregor and pointing a gun at him. Instead of simply shooting him?? More men show up and Oliver is outnumbered. Anatoly is guilty of brining in an american to the brotherhood. Anatoly challenged Gregor and the Bratva agree because of the code. Basically Anatloy called Gregor to account and the others examine him, if he keeps the position Oliver and Anatoly die. Oliver goes to get evidence on Gregor. Breaking into Kovars home. Oliver drops in from the ceiling in his S1 Arrow suit.Turns on a coputer ( is Kovars office?) a Computer that is not even secure?? seriously?? Kovar has armed men every wear gaurding his house, but does not secure his computer? Turns out the gregor exam is basically everyone votes for a Bratva Captain. Gregor or Anatoly. They all side with Gregor until Oliver bursts in.Apparently Gregor had 40 million rubles that he did not spread to the brotherhood and now the bratva have changed sides. Annnd a shootout insues.

5x16- Gregor has more power and men than Anatoly and Oliver, and the Bratva. A civil war has ensued. Oliver says they need to kill him. Oliver is going to use the hood persona to find and kill Gregor. ( It should be noted that Talia is no longer in Russia at this point and has not been seen since 5x12 flashbacks. So he no longer has her as a supposed teacher.) Victor apparently has found Gregors location and Oliver is now dressed as the hood. Oliver tells anatoly that he met a woman ( Talia ) and she taught him how to give his darkness an idetitiy. So all Talia really did was give him a suit, a bow and tell him to take a codename, as well as a verbal kick in the pants to get him to go home. Anatoly ( correctly tells Oliver ) that he cannot simply put on a suit and take a codename to seperate the darkess from him. The darkness is there. Its him, a part of him. Oliver is an idiot as per usual and beleives her. Puts his hood up. Anatoly tells him again that he is wrong that Talia is wrong , that she will be the source of his greatest pain. Gregor is at the ice rink watching hockey practice. Telling his men that they need to convene the Bratva to tell them that they have traitors in their mist. ( this is the broad daylight) There is gunfire heard. Two men go up the stairs to the hallway and open the door leading to the bleachers. They find to Bratva men dead with Arrows in their chest. As the guard turns to go back to gregor or continue checking. He is shot with an arrow. Two men with guns are walking through the stadium hallway Oliver shoots one with an arrow and the other guy turns and while his back is turned Anatyoly (??) comes up behind him and takes him down with a sleeper hold, and snaps his neck. Oliver does his growly voice and Anatoly is looking at him like what the hell are you doing. Gregor still sits in the bleachers wondering what is going on and why his men are taking so long. He sends three more men. Then ( this is utterly stupid.) Anatoly is at the top of the bleachers firing his gun at the Bratva men loyal to Gregor. And Oliver ( who is SUPPOSEDLY soo extensivily trained) is running beind him Not to mention Anatoly just stands their shooting while Gregors men are smart and take cover. Anatoly takes out at least 3 men. One makes it onto the ice. But gets hit by Oliver's arrow from the other side. Oliver had made it to the otherside and fired his arrow. He jumps down into the ( penalty box?) and gets takled on the way down. The roll, the guy takes a swing at Oliver. Oliver catches his arm and forces it into his chest. He then cuts his throat wtih either the mans own knife or his own arrow. Then jumps onto the ice and runs across. Slides and then takes out another man who made it to the ice with an arrow. Oliver fires an arrow at Gregor , who was attempting to flee. Oliver then jumps into where gregor fell. Gregor then says ( this is the stupidest fucking thing ever) “oliver is that you”?? Seriously?! You are looking rght up at him and he has no mask. Olivers then says no its the man who is going to kill you. Gregor tells him you kill me you kill your self. Oliver then rips out the arrow.

5x17- Oliver and Anatoly bring a seriously injured Gregor back to the bar. They are going to help him so he can tell them what Kovar is up to. Oliver begins to pull the bullets out of Gregors arm. Everyone will wither and die at Oliver's touch according to gregor. Gregor is dead and they need a new Bratva Captian. Anatoly is the new Bratva Captain because he has senority. Anatoly has to meet with Kovar as the new Captain otherwise something will be up. Oliver is going to meet with Tianna's mom in order to find out about Kovars plans. One of Kovar's men appears with a gun and olver easily gets it from an older Russian man and kills him. And apparently Merlyn is working with Kovar, maybe to help him create the Earthquake device. Becuase why would he otherwise. Kovar wants to overthrow Russian government. Instead of going home Oliver is going to help the Bratva stop Kovar. Becasue apparently now he actually cares about his brotherhood. Oliver as Hood/Russian goes to the docks to stop Kovar. Anatoly tells Oliver its pretty easy to think first and kill people later. Kovar has access to Sarin Gas, most likely from Merlyn.Oliver fires an arrow off and hits some drumbs which may have already been filled with explosives as Kovar arrives. Fire fight ensues. Kovar tells his men to beware of the Sarin Gas, but purposely aims for the canisters releasing the gas and killing a bratva member. Oliver then enters the fray using a move that ( apparently he learned via ossmosis from Talia?) grabbing one guy and hopping up and wrapping his legs around the other and bringing them both down. Again non trained Russian thugs with guns. And puts an arrow in each of them.Oliver kills the truck driver , but Anatoly has been taken by Kovar, thrown aside. And now Kovar has the truck. Victor is wondering where oliver was when he gets back to the bar. Vicotr wants to honor the deal with Kovar but Oliver knows that Kovar will kill all of them when he takes out the government. Oliver is going to torture one of Kovar men as the hood. Oliver is going to skin the guy alive if he doesn;t talk. A technique apparently Talia taught him? That i can believe since she seems to be only talking. Anatorly is freaked out by what Oliver becomes. Oliver knows where Kovar is. Anatorly says that the mask and hood change nothing that Oliver is a monster ( truth). The guy gave up easliy and Oliver kept going, he is a monster. Kovar is going to kill key members of the government with Sarin Gas at his casino. Oliver goes to see Tianna;s mom. Oliver tells her that her children are dead. But does not say that he was the one who did it. Oliver sneaks into the casino, taking out non trained Russians as he goes. Kills both gaurds in the control room, an arrow to the chest each. Two guys who are the worst trained gaurds ever. Oliver sees that Tianna's mom is being held buy Kovar. And Goes to help. Vidotr betrays Anatorly and them. Shocker. Oliver finds Tianna's mom dead. Oliver simply walks through the halls and fires off arrow into the worst gaurds ever. And apparently has steriods back then becuase he lifts a guy up off the ground and slams him into a wall? Yeah right. Kovar BS's the government members and begins to gas them. Oliver merely walks into the room and fires two arrows into the guys gaurding the gas, again worst gaurds ever. And shuts off the gas, and then is confronted by Kovar. Oliver fires two arrows into Kovars guys. Perfectly aimed ?? again yeah right. Oliver tries some jump move and fails. They trade blows, and Kovar gets oliver into a sleeper hold. Annnd gets the hood off, disovering its oliver. Oliver gets slammed into a shelf and is being strangled. By a boxer.And he is supposeldy trained by Talia and Slade.He mocks Tianna and her family and then Oliver gets the upper hand and flips them after shoving Kovar up against the same shelf. Victor is dead via Sarin Gas. Oliver throws Kovar into the room that was gased ( apparently only Victor dies in a room full of Sarin Gas?? BS. They trade blows again And Kovar gets Oliver onto the table. Kovar actually displays a grapling move and gets oliver down and has his leg. Oliver gets free ( and will probs suddenly know said move.) Oliver then gets the upper hand and swings himself up onto Kovars shoulders. Flipping them to the ground. Kovar gets a hold of a knife and stabbes Oliver. Oliver gets the upper hand again cutting Kovar with his own knife. Kovar is on his knees and oliver killed him because he could. Oliver is now Bratva Captain because he killed Kovar. BS since it was supposed to be about seniority. Apparently it as so all Bratva would know what kind of man he is. A killer. Seems Anatoly knows what Prometheus knows , that the Arrow/hood is a lie so Oliver can kill becuase he likes it. Anatoly also knew that it would fall apart. Merlyn helps Kovar. ( id guess the shit from JB's comic is now coming into play.UGH)

5x18- Oliver decides to go back to Lian yu to make it look like he was on the island for 5 years. He gives Anatoly 48 hours. Anatoly wants Oliver to help him do a hiest to get medicne for sick Russians. Oliver drops in from the roof and starts killing zero trained security gaurds with his arrows. First one he drops right on top of and wraps his arm around then stabs him with an arrow in the chest. Second he goes under, pushing away the guys gun and stabbing him in the chest with an arrow, then used him as a human shield. Last one he bounces off a shelf and then tacles the other by going over him and flipping him over himself, lifts him up and snaps his neck.

5x19-NO Oliver flashbacks.

5x20- S4 present day flashbacks

5x21- Oliver and Anatoly return to Lian Yu to make it look like Oliver was there for the whole 5 years. Oliver learned to fly via his father from vintage planes. Oliver places an Arrow into the mask of Slades former mask.Oliver visits the graves of his father, yao fei , shado, etc. They talk about how and why he becomes the hood. And that others will pay for Oliver's sins. Anatoly is to contact a fisherboat and make them come to the island to collect Oliver in 48 hours. And he is going to fake the the beard as well. Anatoly left. And as oliver gets the bone fire ready , Kovar shows up and tranqs Oliver.

5x22—Oliver spends the entire episode being tortured and halucinating various past/flashback frineds. So no training, not learning. And serious injuries. To the point where he almost kills himself with a gun that only has ONE bullet in it. Also he was given a drug that messes with his mind, making him relive past injures as if they were happening for the first time.

5x23—Oliver voice over. Kovar and his men discover Oliver is missing, that he has escaped. He orders his men to find him but no one is allowed to kill him but Kovar. Oliver is running through the forest straight to the box with his bow and suit, so he can get ready for when the PLANNED boat to come get him. So he can make it look like he was there for 5 years. But Kovars men find him, pointing AK-47s at him. Oliver starts to get down on his knees then suddenly goes low and shoves all 3 at the waist and grabs a knife from the middle guys belt. Stabbs him in what looks to be his throat. Then does nothing more than slash the second guys throat with a horizontal strike. And stabs the third in the chest. NONE of these three were trained men. And Olivers moves were not that of someone who was extensively trained by Slade/Shado/Yao Fei or Shado. Oliver then takes the AK-47 and unloads and kills three more men. No special martial arts moves just a gun. Kovar says ( after learning Oliver killed 6 men) that he is going to end this. Two men are still looking for Oliver and come upon the AK he used pointed barrel up, stuck in the ground. One if these men ( the stupidest, non trained men ever) kneels down and suddenly one of the booby traps ( from S3 present) goes off and a swinging log with spikes impales him. ( when exactly did Oliver find time to do that? It was not in S1, nor S2, S3 he was in China, S4 he was playing undercover man , and he was in Russia for majority of S5 unitl these final few days ; Of which he was being held and tortured. This is bullshit. No way in any of these years would he have time to do this) . The other guy having avoided said trap, gets taken down buy Oliver using ( get this?? ) the same fucking move that Oliver does ever time. The one from the pilot 1x01 present when he says “ no one can know my secret” Is this the only move Oliver knows in the “ 5 years of hell” It looks like it. And oliver takes the mans AK and begins looking for Kovar and his buddy. Suddenly he hears a helicopter. That begins to strafe him, firing repeatedly at him, Oliver runs and takes cover behing a tree stump. Runs again and gets fired at again, takes refuge again behind a fallen log. Then Oliver fires back ( this utterly illogical and stupid) and the pilot of the chopper just sits there , hovering in the air and lets himself be shot at. Instead of moving the chopper away. BS. The chopper goes down. Oliver then goes to investigte to make sure they are dead. Finds Kovar there, injured and getting up. Oliver tries to kill hm by simply firing the AK. But he is out of ammo. Oliver takes off his jacket and starts to walk forward to him to kill him. Kovar is still down, his arm/shoulder injured. He lashes out, he was faking, and slices Oliver in the chest with some sort of blade. Kovar then lunges at oliver with a horizontal downward strike, with his right hand going down to the left. That Oliver blocks with his own right hand and knockes it out of his hands using his right hand. Kovar throws a left cross, which Oliver ducks. Kovar then comes up with his right arm/hand again , Oliver catches it and ducks out of the way, as its revealed Kovar has a gun, the gun fire goes off to Olivers right side. Oliver then grabs his wrist and gun attempting to get the gun from Kovars right hand. Only for kovar to use his own other hand to force the gun into Olivers chest. And forces him back against a tree with the barrel still against his chest. Oliver then manages to force the gun and Kovar back and knees him in the gut. He wrenches sideays and gets the gun out of Kovars hand. While he does this Kovar then comes at him with his left hand in a cross, Oliver ducks it. Then Oliver punches him in the chest three times . He then tries to throw a punch at kovars face, the first one is blocked by Kovar, the second lands across his face. He is then grabbed by kovar, literally just grabbed like the last few punches did not phase him. ( not surprising since he wiped the floor with Oliver once already and was nothing more than a boxer) He grabs Oliver and across the chest with both arms and forces Oliver back onto the still burning helicopter.Which then burns his back. Then just tosses Oliver away. Kovar takes a swing with his left arm that Oliver blocks , he swings with his left which Oliver blocks. He tries to grab for Oliver to then punch him, Oliver uses his elbow to block and force it away. Then Kovar comes at him with his right arm Which Oliver also blocks. He then pucnches at Kovars chest with his right arm, Kovar Blocks that. Oliver manages to grab Kovar around the chest and neck and spins him and throws him to thr ground. Then Oliver runs at him ( does a bull shit move he was never taught at all.) he grabs Kovars shoulders and jumps up wrapping his left leg against Kovars waist and his right around his kneck. Then swinging his own body away flips Kovar to the ground.While falling to the ground himself. Kovar takes a swing at Oliver ( after getting up) with his left arm which Oliver catches and then uses his own right arm and grabs Kovar with the other under Kovars right arm and takes his kneck, then flips him to the ground again. Oliver then grabs Kovar around the kneck in a sleeper hold, then as he tries to snap his kneck ( apparently Oliver cannot do it like that??) switches to his good old fashion every flashback season move: 1x01 present pilot “ you cannot know my secret: kneck snap. And Kovar is dead. Oliver then gets changed and makes it off the island like we see in 1x01.

So S5 Oliver yet again learned ZIP fighting. He was trained by Talia to become something else; mentally. She taught him stratagey. But she did not teach him to fight. Oliver got his ass handed to him repeatedly by Russian thugs who are not trained, when he himself was supposedly oooh so extensvily trained by Shado, yao fei , and Slade, and Maseo. BULL SHIT

Oliver was only trained by Slade between S1/2 for a few months.

Oliver was trained by Shado between S1/2 for a few months with the bow ( he trained the rest of the time by himself at S2 end.

Oliver was NOT trained by Maseo or Tatsu , She only taught him a breathing technique.

Oliver was NOT trained by anyone in S4 and spent the first half of the time getting his ass handed to him by a petty drug dealer. Then the second half undercover back on the island.

Oliver was NOT trained in S5 by the bratva because he spent the entire time either getting his ass handed to him BY them, or simply firing guns. Talia taught him statagey, and to become another person.

So Season 1 maybe a bit of training , maybe like a day or at least a couple of weeks . But as Slade says, he had LIMITED sucess training Oliver. Shado attempted, but in little amount of time was only able to teach him the Bow. He in no way was trained by Yeoh Fei,

Season 2 a bit more eskriima training and a few more months of Slade training, But I reiterate you cannot become an expert in only a few months. He had no training from Shado either otherwise we would have seen those skills, against the people that he fought. Plus she was killed right away. Then Slade went nuts for the majority of the Season.

Season 3 no training at all and he is still at season 1-2 level. Oliver and CO spent the majority of the time running, doing missions , Oliver torturing people, then running after Shrieve trying to stop the virus.

And now Season 4 he is back on the island and he is still at that level and under cover. So there would be no time to train or rather be taught, and who exactly is going to teach him? The labor soldiers who have to skill and are already suspicious of him?

S5 was nothing more than Oliver brawling in fight clubs. Of which he was using NONE of the supposed extenive skills he learned from past teachers. If he as soooo well trained by them , why were these Russian thugs kicking the crap out of him using easy moves that Oliver should have been able to deflect. It also turns out that Oliver had a wig and a fake beard to make it look like he was on the island, and the booby traps were Bullshit.

I even tried to reason in Off screen training, but that still does not mach up . Because if he was trained off screen by Maseo, Slade, Yeoh Fei and Shado Talia then when we see him fight on screen he should be at their level or very near to it ,but his clearly not. All of his on screen fighting is horrible and at limited level and in no way matches any of them and definitely not present Oliver.

That is past level training that in no way matches up or equals Oliver being the 'Expert’ fighter that we see in the present. The only thing that these flashbacks actually show us is how he got most of his scars and how he met various people, there has never been any training. He had one jump kick that he used in present on the new “count’, on the roof top, that was USED on him by Maseo. So because it was USED on him that means he knows how to do it? there was never any training from Maseo, again if there was wouldn’t flashback Oliver have used it when fighting? He did not. Then there was the pressure point tough that Yeoh Fei USED on him in 1x12. So again, because it was USED on him he knows it? that is ridiculous. There was no way for him to have taught it to him given he was captured before that , and as of 1x12 he was working for the bad guys. And the times before that he was treating Oliver for the arrow he himself put through him.

There was never really time for Shado to have trained him, again when they first met they were trying to stay alive, she only had time to teach the Bow. Then , in her words , ” a few months" later Oliver had been trained more by Slade, but clearly not that extensively because he was still not that great of a fighter. Then immediately Shado gets killed in Season 2, So there was never any time for her to teach him. All the moves that are in the present that Oliver uses are the ones that Yeoh Fei used ON him, NOT actually taught to him.

Then Slade is critically injured in the beginning of Season 2, then gets the super drug and goes nuts for the rest of the Season. Slade only had a few months to teach Oliver, and it was not a lot. because you cannot master martial arts in a few months. And Oliver clearly did not.

The only thing that Tatsu taught Oliver was that breathing exercise. She hated Oliver for the majority of the Season until the end. She did not teach him anything. And Maseo spent the majority of the time beating the crap out of Oliver in the beginning, and if Oliver was trained by Yeoh Fei, Shado or had even more training from Slade;which he did not, then Maseo would not have been a problem. Plus with all the missions that Waller had them doing, the torture she had Oliver preform, Maseo going missing, Tatsu getting captured, Oliver getting captured again by Waller and tortured, then working for shrieve, running from Waller , then running after Shrieve, trying to stop the virus, looking for the cure and failing. Exactly when would Maseo would Maseo have had time to teach Oliver? He did not.

Now as to the present practicing/training that we see Oliver do, i believe that he is practicing what he knows. But again where did he learn all this? Because it was not from the people he met in the 5 years he was gone. A lot of what he is practicing looks like “Wing Chung”, the dummy that he always uses. Now it takes years upon years to master that, you cannot just do it in a year or even the 5 missing years that he was gone. Because with everything that was happening , when would he have had the time? Plus, if he decided to learn it present time, exactly how would he have the time then either? He was always out on the streets killing the people “poisoning his city”, or trying to pretend to be Oliver Queen to his family. There is no way that he could become an expert in that in just a year or even the missing time, because you can’t.

Then in Season 2 Oliver supposedly learning Jui jitsu when he got back in season 2 , present time, give the amount of time he spends out on the streets and dealing with family. I will never believe that he was able to become and expert in that.

Then in Season 3 he spends the duration from 3x20-3x21 in Ra’s Al Ghuls care, so that’s maybe a couple of weeks .Then he comes out of there equal to Ra’s? No that is also ridiculous , there is no way he could have became equal to Ra’s, a man who was virtually immortal and had decades, if not centuries of training. The only thing that Merlyn taught Oliver was the sword for some time, maybe a couple of months. That i maybe can believe, but not at all do i believe that it would have allowed him to defeat Ra’s. Ra’s had lifetimes worth of training. Oliver has a few months worth, a year at the most.

S4 Oliver trained with his team a few times.

S5 we saw practcally nothing.

None of Oliver’s training matches or equals him being this Expert/Master Martial Artist that can defeat all these opponents when he really only had , in Shado’s words “ a few months” of training from Slade. I will never believe that he is , as Oliver said “ a weapon” , with the actual training that he got , its unrealistic and unbelievable .

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extraposts23 · 7 years ago

Text

Female fighter. Dont reblog.

It seems like an offense to women to not use their skills. For instance, Katrina Law has experience in dancing and has a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, Muay Tai and Krav Maga. She is capable of learning the fight choreography that they need her to do. Katie Cassidy has also proven herself capable of learning the fight choreography they have had her do.

The fights for women are hardly ever well choreographed and when they are they are always shown as being less brutal as the men. Why is it that only men are allowed to have brutal fights with Oliver/Green Arrow? Women can be just as brutal as men. Yet they show Nyssa as nothing more than a baton twirling ballerina. That is offensive. Edit: Another point by someone else.

Apparently, the idea of having a woman as a the main villain would then bring about the theory that it would turn into Oliver being a woman beater as if he has not beaten woman on the show before. Apparently, the idea that having a woman win or be the big bad would result in us thinking that Oliver is a woman beater? It's not always cut and dry plus if they had numerous female villains then you guys will complain he's a women beater.[these sentences are the same] But the fact that he has already defeated the various female bad guys; low-level women on the show does not count as him beating on women? How is it any different? And the fact that Oliver in the comics seemingly does not have female bad guys; big bads ( correct me if I’m wrong I believe he does and could have been used. Or used his low-level female bads as big bads in the show) is a reason to not have a female big bad in the show. As if the show has not stolen characters from Batman, so they cannot use some of other characters as big bads?

Thea – Was not a fighter, to begin with but yet after a few months with Merlyn is all the sudden a martial arts expert. Capable of taking on and very nearly besting Merlyn. She defeated Anarchy, who beat Oliver twice. Apparently, because she is the daughter of Merlyn and the sister of Oliver she is an MA expert or at least now portrayed as one. She even beat Oliver arguably, since he was attempting to teach her, lecture her. And she had Blood lust.

Shado - Was the daughter of Yao Fei who was a Martial arts expert. She was also an expert capable of wiping the floor with Slade. With no explanation of how she became that aside from that she is Yao Fei's daughter and that he taught her. But what happened to this badass female, martial arts fighter? She was killed off because we cannot have a woman, who was clearly the only one at Oliver's present day level, who can beat Oliver. Certainly not a woman. She was killed off to further some lame “choice” story arc for the supposed hero.

Dinah Laurel Lance– (One of the worst offenses of the show given who her character is supposed to be. She is Dinah Laurel Lance aka the Black Canary). One of the best fighters in the DC universe, but has been dumbed down and reduced in skill. I say that because she is supposed to be Black Canary. Oliver’s partner. Not talking about having to be a love interest. Talking about being his crime fighting partner and equal. That is the character. She was clearly shown to be able to fight in S1-2, capable of throwing a punch and taking down men with swift efficient moves but gets dumbed down to the point where she cannot even know how to do that anymore. To the point where she needs to learn how to throw a punch. Now it has been said that self-defense classes are not enough to be able to survive on the streets. Okay, but she was clearly adept enough to fight in self-defense in the first place. So instead of simply adding on to that skill she already had. Instead of having WildCat add to those skills, hone them and make her into the Martial Arts badass that she should be she gets reduced in skill. Supposedly they did it, took away that skill because they wanted it to look real. She gets reduced in skill to a weak woman who cannot fight at all. It has also been said that her body type the character and actress means that she should not be able to be that good.

For one thing Thea is just as petite and thin as her, and Thea was trained by Merlyn and Oliver; later on. Yet Thea is shown to use many badass moves and take down goons bigger than her but gets no crap for that. Secondly, Shado is also just as thin and petite. Shado wiped the floor with Slade; a man twice her size. She is also treated like she has no right to fight for her city. As if only Oliver is allowed to fight for the City. Then bitches to her that she needs more training. But refuses to actually train her!

Sara- Who has far more actual fight training than Oliver, nonstop training via the League of Assassins. As opposed to his ridiculous globe hopping non training. She who should be his equal (because of the way her fighting is portrayed, her training. Nothing to do with the who is the better Black Canary.) of not his better, can't be allowed to beat him. Even in the tie in comic 2.5, she beat him in a fight but that is never actually acknowledged on the show. She can beat Merlyn, after 2 extra years of training with Ra's Al Ghul himself. But cannot beat Oliver? The fact that she was mind controlled via the Dominators should have made Sara more dangerous, harder to defeat. In the crossover when she was mind controlled she logically should have been even more difficult to beat.

Cupid- She bested Oliver in season two, arguably, because she technically got him down and had him handcuffed to a train rail. But yet this is brushed off as he was holding back or he still won the fight. Even though she did beat him canonically. So if that is true.

If a former member of the Swat team can is allowed to beat Oliver but Nyssa; a lifetime member of the LOA, trained since birth cannot be allowed to beat him once? However, if it is not true that she beat him then it simply serves to prove that no woman has been allowed to beat the white male hero. (You don’t need parentheses only use them in a quote not to emphasize something same with uppercase.)

Huntress- Another in S1, possibly S2, that has sort of come close to being able to defeat Oliver. Or rather being on his level. But she was written off, and her skills yet again being brushed off as being emotional, or not thinking clearly or reckless. Also got treated like she has no idea what killing is, even though she went on a murder spree with both the triad and her father's family. But only Oliver knows what killing means because he has killed. As if the people he killed were more important, rather that he was killing it was more important.

China White- The only woman we have ever gotten closest to beating Oliver in a fight. Though technically tying him. She was also not allowed to beat him. Even though she clearly had some sort of natural skill.

Katana/Tatsu Yamishiro- To an extent. In Season 3 she was shown to be a badass swords woman. Also in the comics, she is an expert martial artist. But when it came time for the team to escape in S3 in Nanda Parbat, they reduced her to having to have Flash rescue her and then she simply walks away to disappear after killing her husband. They shoehorned her in the Flash rescuing the team in Nanda Parbat simply to have a small crossover that really served no purpose, it made zero sense for the reason that Flash is the fastest man alive and could deal with the entire situation in a few minutes if not seconds; Save the team, stop Ra's and stop the whole league. Plus the show has always prided itself on being grounded, and the fact that there was, in fact, a deleted scene of Katana escaping herself. Kicking the crap out of the League members and saving the team. A scene that would have made more sense given the grounded theme of the show and not have to have a shoehorned Flash scene. They reduced her to needing to be saved when she should have been able to escape herself.

Add link.

Nyssa Raatko Al Ghul - One of the two worst offenses in the show. A lesbian woman. A woman who has clearly been shown to have been training since she was a child. Trained by Ra's Al Ghul, her own admission in S3 episode 4. Trained to torture, however being the Heir to the Demon I really doubt that is the only thing her father taught her or even that he only had her train with one master/mentor.

In the Arrow dossier book that was released recently, it is stated that she trained Sara, so I would think that a lot of the moves that Sara knows Nyssa knows. But we have never seen that. Every time we have seen Nyssa fight it’s no more than a baton twirler. She has been regulated to nothing more than a baton twirling ballerina. Which could be construed as insulting to some women, because that is saying that women can not be that good, or rather that we can not be as good as men.

We have seen brutal fights between Oliver and the male villains but hardly ever between the women and him, most especially him and Nyssa. When she was introduced in S2 it was stated that her skills were supposed to be well matched to Oliver. Yet we never got to see that. She only landed maybe one or two punches and that was it. Yet when he fights the men it always lasts longer and is more brutal. She fended off both Merlyn and Oliver the two best fighters on the show at the same time. But this was brushed off as Oliver was holding back and not going in for the kill. She defeated Merlyn himself in S3 brushed off as everyone has done that, alone; a man that Oliver lost to twice. This was before Oliver was even trained by the League. Now granted the actual fight was a bit lame; bad choreography. However, it canonically happened. She defeated Merlyn and held off Oliver and Merlyn at the same time, and before Merlyn intervened she had the upper hand. but between S2 and 3 she cannot be allowed to beat Oliver once?

She even held her own in the male fight or group fight before she is literally dragged away to be the stand in Talia. Then in the latter half of season three, she gets beat by Oliver/Al Sah-him just so she can be used as a stand in Talia for the blatant Batman Bride/Son of the Demon story ripoff. What is even more horrible about the treatment of Nyssa and her fighting is that they have basically made it that women are weak and emotional and cannot win the fight because of that. Then to make matters worse Nyssa escapes a dungeon she herself admitted she got herself into. At least she can admit to and take the consequences, which is more than can be said of the white hero who walked away after S3 like he had done nothing wrong. then she goes to Oliver and asks her husband for help? All we hear throughout this episode is I cannot beat him and you cannot beat me and you cannot beat him. Nyssa is literally reduced to needing a big strong man/husband to fight for her. A woman is reduced to needing a big strong man to fight her battles for her. Disgusting and sexist. As if a woman cannot be allowed to defeat her own enemy. One she sparred with before and held her own against.

Now it was stated that she had been starved or malnourished in the cell. However, Nyssa herself was the one turning away the food. It is also stated that or explained that she could not defeat Merlyn because of the fact that he had been using the Lazarus Pit because it made him stronger. That doesn't match up with Oliver being able to defeat Ra's as he had been using the Pit for decades, nor should he have been able to defeat Merlyn for the same reason. Instead of letting a lesbian Asian woman( Just say Asian) fight and win her own battles, no we get the white male, husband, and hero taking over and fighting in the place of the weak woman. All for the sake of that he is the hero and too horribly parallel the season one rooftop fight between Merlyn and Oliver.

It was not even a fight Oliver hit him like once or twice and Merlyn went down. They ripped away Nyssa's agency for a crappy attempt at a season one fight rehash. Then after Nyssa becomes after this, instant friends with Oliver, a man who is responsible for the majority of what happened to her. A man who has never shown her any kind of respect.

Now if they are stating that Shado has that level of skill because she is Yao Fei's daughter, and Thea is supposedly that good because she is Oliver's sister and Merlyn's daughter. Then why not have Nyssa be that good since she is Ra's Al Ghul's daughter? Why can’t she be allowed to have that same natural skill? Again her personality and skills are brushed off as being reckless, naive, and with a lot to learn. Her defeat of Merlyn is also brushed off as it’s not that big of a deal since Thea did it, but the fact that Oliver sort of did it is, in fact, a big deal. It’s only a thing if Oliver does it but if a woman does then it’s nothing.

I would like to point out that both Nyssa and Laurel; two women who were considered emotional and reckless, were clear headed enough to see that Thea was not the one responsible for Sara's death. And neither took revenge on her, even though Oliver thought that both emotional women would. Laurel went after Merlyn, the one rightfully responsible, even though she couldn't beat him. Point being she went after the one truly to blame. All the while Oliver put his own personal issues in the way, his ego. When going to rescue a mass murderer, because he could not stand that someone beat him!

Her losses are also brushed off as she is not really a villain. when people are confronted with the fact that she is, in fact, the closest thing to a high-level female villain we have ever gotten. She may be a guest character but so was The Huntress and China White. They were the closest to being the ones to actually beat Oliver. I state this because it was season one and two and that was as close as a brutal fight as we have ever gotten with women. She is a guest star, but so is Merlyn, even in S1 regardless of the fact that he turned out to be the big bad. He was a guest star. All the characters are guest stars! Merlyn I believe it was is when a villain became a regular. Nyssa has been back plenty of times and could very well have been shown to have brutal fights.

Someone once said that it; “Would have been stupid for Oliver’s character to lose to Ra’s daughter” (If this is a direct quote then it needs a source if not then remove the parentheses and the quote doesn't fit with your paragraph. I think you mean something other than what you say. Since he was going to be the Batman stand in Heir to the Demon. Why? Ra’s did not care about Oliver until Nyssa came back to the LOA and told Ra’s that Oliver was protecting Merlyn. He may have been on Ra’s’ radar but in no way did he care. In season 2 Ra’s agenda was only for Sara to return. Since the LOA thought Merlyn was dead until Moria told them otherwise. Ra’s still did not care about Oliver until after the duel because of a prophecy that is utterly illogical. So how would Nyssa defeating Oliver in season 2 or once in the beginning half of season 3 where Ra’s never even cared about Oliver have been stupid?

Edit: Adding the fact that Arrow completely took away Nyssa’s agency in her return during season four. The fight that happened between Oliver and Merlyn should have been between Nyssa and Merlyn. For all the shit that The 100 got for killing off Lexa; the killing your gays trope. They did do one thing right, one thing that Arrow failed at. They gave Lexa agency in her fight with Roan. She specifically states; “I am commander and no one fights for me.”. (needs a source.) Knowing full well she might not be good enough and may die. The writers let her fight her own battle. Arrow went the sexist route and had Nyssa’s big strong husband step in to fight for his weak wife/woman. Making a woman look weak and unable to win her own battles.

All for the sake of that moronic attempt to parallel the season one fight between Oliver and Merlyn; and failing miserably at it. That even takes into account the fact that by letting Oliver fight for her Nyssa would not have really earned the title and probably no one would be loyal to her for that reason. Instead of giving Nyssa the ability to defeat Merlyn, the same natural skill that Oliver has, or even allowing her to have gotten better and then be able to fight and win against either of them. They went the sexist route and made her need a big strong man to help her.

Edit: new point brought by someone else. Apparently, Nyssa could not have been allowed to fight and win her own battles because Oliver is the hero. Apparently, allowing a woman fighter agency, allowing a woman to win for a change would do nothing for the show.

As if they the writers could not come up with a way to have Nyssa and Oliver team up against Merlyn or have Nyssa get The Lotus with Oliver. That it absolutely had to happen the way it did in the episode because it had to be Oliver the one to fight Merlyn and make Nyssa look weak. Apparently, her looking weak, her needing her big strong husband was needed, was necessary in order to keep Merlyn, an overused character around a bit longer.

A character that really serves no purpose throughout the rest of the show. Everything that he has told them could have been learned from Nyssa, a woman who grew up in the LOA. As if keeping Merlyn around for no reason other than the fact that he is played by John Barrowman is a nonsense reason that in no way furthers the story or Oliver. Because the character serves no purpose on the show anymore. He lost his purpose in season three. Edit: Also see the post on the fact that she is not actually Nyssa but in fact Talia.

Edit: ( might be repeating myself) It is stated that, by some fans who love Nyssa and by some who like her and agree that she should be more of a struggle for Oliver in a fight, that the reason that she has lost repeatedly is that she is grieving for Sara, or that she loves Sara so much that she was distracted by it in her in the episode. But can we not see her overcome that? Can we not see her return a better fighter and be able to keep emotions out of it? Because by using that as in excuse it plays into that women are simply emotional and cannot be good fighters because of it. Oliver actually states that in season four to Thea some lecture about men being better fighters being able to keep feelings out of it. Then later Thea is capable of doing so. So why can’t Laurel and Nyssa? Especially if their intent was to make Laurel into her comic counterpart who is a fantastic fighter.

Now Flash did what Arrow was utterly incapable of doing in regards to two villain fighters. They did it with gorillas! The Flash was not part of the actual fight at all. That proves that you can have two side characters fight and not have the main character involved in the fight. But Nyssa can’t be allowed to fight Merlyn and win because Oliver has to be involved.

Nyssa now recently was brought back to ( get this ) fight her sister. In S5 finale. She was actually allowed to fight her own battle ( perhaps a bone tossed at the fans who were upset that she was not allowed to fight her own battle in S4. However note that the person she is allowed to fight on her own is a woman. Also a off hand comment upon returning to the group in S5 when speaking to Merlyn that he “ would try” to cut her throat. But yet no actual fight allowed to happen to prove that off hand hinted comment.

Black Siren- Who in Flash was capable of defeating Flash. She had some martial arts skills. And her powers were extremely powerful and destructive. She is capable of leveling buildings and making ears bleed. It’s stated in Flash that had she kept it up she could have killed Flash. Yet in Arrow, her powers are reduced. Oliver and Felicity survive a close-up attack of her powers with no protection when earlier Curtis himself states that their ear protection is useless. In other words, there is no way that Oliver or Felicity should have survived that, or at least gotten away with no hearing loss. Where was the bleeding of the ears in Arrow? Then when the new Canary shows up? Dinah Drake ( not talking about her character only her powers), her cry is more powerful? They reduced Black Siren's powers in order to make The Arrow look good.

Talia Al Ghul- Now possibly the second worse female character treated on this show. She is the older sister of Nyssa in this universe. She canonically ( said only, not shown) trained Oliver and the Season 6 villain Prometheus. Also trained by her father Ra's Al ghul . She should we would think be on level with Merlyn or even Oliver. But she was also nerfed in skill. None of these fighting skills she supposedly taught Oliver were ever portrayed. In fact the opposite. She was used for speech only. And the ONLY fight she was for a viewer bait sister fight. And a ridiculously horrible choreographed one at that. This supposed badass female fighter goes down in one or two hits. And that is legit the end of her fighting in the show as of her introduction.

Oliver- Was only trained by Slade for a few months between S1-2, Shado's words. Trained by Shado with the bow before she is killed off. Slade went insane. Yao Fei only taught Oliver that he needed to kill to survive on the island. Nothing more, because he was working ( unwillingly) with the bad guys for the majority of the season, then was killed off. Then Maseo never taught him anything because he was more concerned about keeping Oliver in line and protecting his family. Tatsu hated his guts and only taught him that breathing technique. This is all proven via S3 -4 and now S5 fights. Oliver has gotten his butt kicked by a martial arts guy in a market place in S3. Now if he was trained by Maseo then that guy would never had been an issue. Even Maseo repeatedly kicking the crap out of Oliver for attempting escape.

Had Oliver been extensively trained by Shado or Yao Fei then Maseo would never have been an issue. Then in S4 Oliver gets his ass handed to him by a petty drug dealer. Literally thrown off a building by said drug dealer. As bad as it was to Oliver die hards, it canonically happened. I.E he was not trained very well and if he was trained extensively then he is clearly not as good as people think. Then gets stabbed by Conklin in S4, defeats him but the guy was the same level as Oliver. and Oliver was wounded. Oliver only ever uses the same neck snap move over and over again as if that is the only move he knows. Then most importantly. In S5; the final year of Oliver's journey, Oliver is facing off against Russian thugs. Russian thugs who clearly have no martial skills that we have seen. These guys are literally just throwing nothing more than boxing punches, and lifting Oliver off the ground and slamming him on the ground like WWE people. Even Kovar ( the main flash back baddie.) is not even any kind of special fighter, he is a boxer. And he wiped the floor with Oliver; a man who was supposedly extensively trained by Yao fei, Shado, Slade and Maseo in fighting.

Now if Oliver was then these Russian guys, this Kovar would be nothing. A guy literally walked up behind Oliver and hit him over the head with a gun. Where were the heightened senses? He got gang beat by some Russian guys who did nothing but throw him to the ground and repeatedly kick him. Where was his extensive training then? Oliver walked into a trap in an alleyway and the same thing happened. They threw him up against a wall and then the ground and he got beat up. Where was the fight skill then? The supposed natural skill. Plus Sara, Oliver, Maseo, Merlyn, and Al Owal; all were given brutal, LOA style fighting that proves how great they are. Nyssa has not been given that courtesy.

And now they, the writers/EPs are bringing in Talia Al Ghul or should we say the real Nyssa since they have flipped the back stories. Further proof that they have used Nyssa as a stand in Talia. That they have simply made her Talia. To be Oliver's Flash Back Russian trainer. He will be trained by a former member of the LOA. A woman who is decades old and a warrior, clearly if they are having her train him to fight. So essentially Talia will have given Oliver LOA training, possibly, and he will have then lost to Merlyln later on in S1. Or possibly she will have only taught him some acrobatic moves since in S5 Prometheus used a flip that Oliver learned from Talia. In other words, they are scrambling to explain how Olivier became oh so good in the present since they have failed to explain that in the last 2 seasons.

Add more female characters if can think of any.

What is interesting is that Anarchy, a man beat Oliver twice. We have no idea where he got his skill from, his fighting. Now if we are talking about some people being better than others, having natural skill, then anarchy's defeat of Oliver should have never been questioned. It should have been accepted as someone having natural Skill and simply being better than the hero. However, it was fixed quickly. Why, because die-hard Oliver fans complained that this guy cannot be allowed to beat Oliver; a man who was trained by Ra's and the LOA, Oliver beat Ra's, Oliver has X amount of years of experience and training. Then the actor has a talk with the Eps and the next time we see the two together Oliver throws him into a wall or some such like Oliver is on steroids. This is interesting to me because the Stunt Coordinator James Bamford went so far as to state that some people are just better than others. I mean Anarchy's fighting could very well be construed as natural skill. It’s interesting that when it involves a man's fighting and losing, then if people complain then it’s adjusted and fixed because we cannot have a man/hero lose. But when it concerns a woman, then it is simply brushed off as she cannot possibly be that good. Or that she is simply not on that level.

I would like to point out that a few of these women have also faced off against Slades Mirakuru soldiers. It was not just Oliver that did that. Nyssa, Sara and arguably Laurel. In fact given Sara's LOA background she should have been able to hold her ground against Super Slade; in the lair when Oliver fights with her escrima sticks. Given that she has way more training than him.

The only ones on the show who have been canonically allowed to beat Oliver have always been men; Slade, Merlyn, Damien Darhk, Ra's and Prometheus.

S1 - Merlyn.

S2 - Slade Wilson.

S3 - Ra's Al Ghul. (For a unoriginal batman ripoff.)

S4 - Damien Darhk.

S5 - Prometheus.

Even the Flash. Though I would like to state that it is about time they acknowledged this fact. There is no way that Oliver would have defeated Flash. There were a few instances where Oliver would have lost both his arms in that first fight, dislocation or broken.

It was stated in the S5 crossover that Flash has in fact canonically beat Oliver. The following. Oliver Queen AkA Green Arrow has canonically lost to the Flash in a fight. He never once beat Flash. The first fight in the S3 crossover was a tie. The second fight when Oliver challenged him to see who would win, Oliver lost.

As per the S5 crossover bar scene. Legends episode 2x07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCp82DaAfPg

Oliver: “I’m just saying next time I’m going to get you.”

Barry: “I’m just saying I beat you twice.”

Oliver: “The first was a tie.”

Barry, while smirking : “ And the second?”

Oliver: “There were no witnesses.”

The closest thing we have ever gotten to a high-level female villain has been Nyssa. Being the daughter of the demon. But she was simply not allowed to be on their level because she is a woman and emotional. It is also worth noting that in S6 currently we have yet again a male big bad, a man by the name of Richard Dragon. All this after the Eps claim they were all for a female big bad and were planning one.

We could have had one or two female main Villains.

Nyssa is an obvious one; They could have actually adapted Nyssa’s comic storyline, leaving out the craziness. Hell Sara was dating the daughter of the demon, the heir they could have gone with that she was dating Ra’s herself. Instead of running from Ra’s and the LOA; leaving behind the daughter, it could have been Sara running from the girlfriend who was the leader. Actually made her more like her comic counterpart. Perhaps instead of ripping off and copying The Bride of the Demon storyline. They could have had Ra’s and Oliver team up against Nyssa since the writers were already adamant about ripping off Batman’s story or have Nyssa be the main big bad and only keep the allusion to Ra’s, have her be the second in command. Or last and even better have her be Ra’s like her comic counterpart, and Oliver had to face and defeat her, and kept the crazy bit and left out the part about her being a lesbian. (I only say that; her not being a lesbian in this situation, as a way to make her the bad guy without doing the crazy lesbian trope like they did on Battlestar Galactica.)

Talia that they are bringing in(Reword this and update it as the season has ended.), granted it’s possible that she will turn out to be the one behind or rather responsible for Prometheus, maybe manipulating whoever Prometheus really is into fighting Oliver, using X person’s rage. Maybe to get back at Oliver for Ra’s death. In which case it will be a rip off of The Dark Knight Rises.

There is also Shado they could have used instead of using her, a badass fighter, as a prop to fulfill some lame “choice” arc to then make Slade go crazy. All they had to do was leave out the “rape” part of her Arrow comic story.

China White a main bad guy.

Huntress a main bad guy. There are female villains, in Huntress situation, a comic anti hero perhaps, but a villain on the show. It could have been done but they refused to try.

Isabel Rochev (need more on her)

They could have used Slade’s daughter, the real ravager.

Actually made Waller a main threat. Imagine Oliver having to face off against the Wall as a main bad guy. Take everything they tried to do in the flashbacks with her and him and put it in the present. Added into that the stuff with her and him in the present. No woman has been allowed to defeat Oliver. Because the trend has always been women are weaker than men in fighting. It has also been stated that he has to win because he is the title character, or because he is the hero.

That is nonsense. Because Flash and Supergirl has also constantly lost fights to lesser level villains. It has nothing to do with being the title character. Even Daredevil on Netflix has lost to lesser/lower level villains or rather been bested for a time. He even lost a sparring match to Electra.

Supergirl lost to:

Voltrox.

Banshee.

She lost to the alien in the fight ring.

Sort of against Bizzaro.

Sort of to Indigo.

Alex if you think of her as the bad guy when she was controlled, and she wiped the floor with Supergirl in training and she is not the main.

Flash has lost to:

Cold and Heatwave. (When they tag teamed him)

Cold by himself.

Girder. (The steel guy.)

Cold, Heatwave, Weather Wizard, and Deathbolt. (When They tag teamed him.) All of those being low-level villains.

In conclusion, the writers have used women as fools and weaklings. Their inability to fight is either brushed off as them being not as good, Not on the others level or not having natural skills (you don’t need parentheses). Or if a woman like Nyssa or China White gets close to beating Oliver it gets brushed off again as he was not trying or he was holding back or it was a fluke. In the case of Nyssa and even Laurel, its brushed off as simply a woman who is emotional. As if women cannot be as good as or better than a man because they are weaker and emotional. Which is the repeated trend on Arrow. Not to mention sexist. Further proof is that we have never been given a female villain, big bad female villain. We have never seen a woman be able to defeat Oliver and there be nothing he can do about it. Like with Ra's. Oliver lost to him twice, technically 3 times since that last battle was ridiculous since Oliver was on his knees and beaten, and only defeated Ra's by using the same trick that he used on him. Oliver admitted that he couldn't beat Ra's. But then with the power of love managed to use the same trick on him.

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