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honeyprincerising · 20 days

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Hey!

As someone who knows nothing about thai language, I found your linguistics explanation quite interesting and it got me wondering about how does the phi/nong work in details, like in the new dsn episode Leon said that Fiat's only a few months older than him and he only calls him P' because he started school yearly. Is it somehow similar to the korean yearly birthday situation?

Thai Honorifics Between Ages in BL & in Real Life

Technically yes but also... no.

phi/nong/ai - honorifics & pronouns

So anyone born the year(s) before you, and/or in school a grade above you, within a few years (amorphous and somewhat generational) should be called P'+name. This is usually considered polite but not very formal.

I would say it covers anyone who might be at high school or university with you, so about 4-5 years or so ahead and about 4-5 years or so behind, but it's super flexible. So actors might meet a much older but queer or super hip member of the press who will insist on phi, even though they are a decade or more senior.

Phi/P’ and nong are gender neutral whether uses as an honorific (P’Name) or as a I/you pronoun phi.

Very loosely phi when used alone as a noun = older sibling and nong when used alone = younger sibling. (Phi is similar but not the same as senpai in Japanese.)

For pronouns, the older person will usually use the pronoun version phi to refer to themself as "I" but the younger boy will usually use their own name or pom for I (but rarely nong).

Both boys will use the particle krab/kap. (Girls use kha.)

BL shows will occasionally mess with this but the actors in interviews are usually really careful about their phi/nongs & krap/khas.

guu/mueng - I and you rude informal pronouns (used the most in BL), should NEVER be spoken by an outsider until said outsider fully understands the implications.

The grown up version of all this is khun which is polite, formal, age, and gender neutral. Khun may be used as the you pronoun and as an honorific Khun + Name especially in the workplace. (Thai doesn’t really have a sunbae or sensei form of address.) Khun is usually translated as Mr/Mrs/Ms. To confuse matters Khun is also a first name in Thailand and BL.

To really confuse matters there are a number of other I/you pronouns (rao, chan, ter) which are (somewhat) gender neutral, definitely situational, and fall into various categories of rudeness, formality, and intimacy.

Hia

Hia honorific or you pronoun. Hia functions the same as phi but is used only by those with Chinese ancestry, is masculine, and is slightly more household intimate than phi (more strongly associated with actual siblings/cousins/family members). In UWMA Team calls Win hia (and leaves off the P'Win - cheeky boy), but he uses phi and P'Dean for Dean. In Bad Buddy Pat’s sister uses hia with him.

It’s rare to hear hia used IRL on the actor circuit. But NuNew uses it with Zee (Cutie Pie) which is interesting. They have a soft but strict older/younger dynamic (Zee is almost a decade older then NuNew). And Zee has been through the wringer with a pair before so there’s a lot of subtext going on here. You can watch them (and hia) in action here.

The feminine of hia is jay or je, which is also used in the queer community (usually by request) and often translated as sis, see this use in the flower shop sequence in Oxygen.

Exceptions IRL:

OhmFluke. Fluke is older than Ohm but refers to him as P'Ohm and Ohm usually uses a nickname or affectionate diminutive (like nu) on Fluke. They decided this early on in their relationship as actors promoting Until We Meet Again. But it seems genuine to their dynamic and friendship.

So clearly phi/nong has some flexibility of choice built into it socially.

PP & Billkin (I Told Sunset About You) opted for this kind of role reversal as well.

SantaEarth. Earth clearly does not like how much older he is than Santa so they have negotiated some kind of complicated referral system between them that I still can't quite follow. But I find kinda fascinating to listen to. Thai is a language where you can actually avoid all pronouns most of the time and still clearly communicate. These two seem to do that a lot.

Exceptions On Screen:

LeonPob. Leon and Pob tackle modes of address many times in Don’t Say No. In ep 10, over the phone Leon says if Pob uses just Pob (no phi) as the “I” pronoun when they are talking, Leon will melt. Pob does, right before hanging up. Then Pob does it again when he’s begging Leon later, and Leon just crumbles. Pob is older but play-acting linguistically younger and Leon (the seme) finds this unbearably CUTE. He also takes it as linguistic submission and permission to take their relationship to the next level. Which it kind of is.

SibGene. They have an ongoing conversation about this in Lovely Writer. In general couples where the seme is younger than the uke and aggressive about it have linguistic negotiation as part of their relationship. I talk about it here, under age flipped dynamics.

BohnDuen in My Engineer are abnormal too. I call them linguistic brats.

Older Generations

Anyone significantly older than you, like a generation or more above you, and in a casual environment like retail or food service is par/lung|arr AKA auntie/uncle by students (also your parent's friends, in laws and sept parents, friend's parents, and adult neighbors). See par used a lot in Lovely Writer.

The reverse of this (adult to child) is gender neutral loo.

Your faen's parents, if they approve the relationship, will likely invite the use of paa/maa. Formal register actually dictates khun maa/paa.

But the older you are in life, the more you should be using khun instead of any of these. You can see khun grappled with as part of the plot of Lovely Writer and Day’s plot line in SOTUS S. There’s a rise in its use post 2020 as more Thai BLs move into the adult sphere and workplace environments (e.g. Manner of Death and Paint with Love).

Nong does not work the same a phi

Anyone younger than you technically is a nong but most older kids will actually use no honorific for those younger than them but in the same general age bracket/generation/schooling system. Nong carries with it cute or diminutive connotations. A little like the difference between "my little brother" or "my baby brother" versus "my younger brother." Nong is more babyish. Thus it's more likely to be used across a much wider age gap, or with very specific cute personality types, or romantic entanglements.

Nong in the third person is different again and almost entirely dependent on circumstances.

Also nong is often used as the 3rd person pronoun for animals and pets.

Unlike phi a boy nong will rarely use nong in place of the personal pronoun, he would use pom or his own name with his boyfriend. A girl will usually use chan. However, boys can/do also use chan as an informal I pronoun across age barriers, amongst intimates, and with female friends. Peach uses chan with YoonOh in Peach of Time.

There is also the diminutive nu/noo. Nu is specifically for younger cuteness, it means mouse - หนู. (Nu has become hotly debated since KinnPosche and Cutie Pie so I talk about it here).

There's a point where Bhon calls Duen "nong Duen" in My Engineer and clearly absolutely relishes the teasing nature of that, because it's a bit of an insult to Duen's dignity.

In Bad Buddy, Korn uses nong to tease Pat about flirting with Pran. It’s very very funny if you understand the implications of the term under the context of their friendship (equals and age mates) and Pat pretending to be jealous of Wai in order to cope with how much Wai is hurting his boyfriend.

In Enchante Akk and Theo have a constant teasing back and forth using Nong Theo in particular (they are the same age, so this is a kind of insult flirting).

Dean's friends tease both Pharm and Dean by flirting with Pharm and calling him "nong Pharm" in front of Dean. Partly this is because Pharm is so cute and shy. Just think if they tried that with Team? He'd beat the shit out of them. And Win would hold his jacket while Team punched.

So there's a bit of affection baby-talk to nong as well, once romance is involved. (Much like we use the affectionate term "baby" as English-speaking couples.)

Rao & Ter & Gher

Both genders/ages also have access to (and use) the I pronoun rao (which is ALSO the pronoun for we, sounds like lao) and is... soft? Cutsie? Gentle. Also a tiny bit stiff. It can be used when you don’t want to use guu, or don’t know (or want to know) the age relationship in play. I would say it has an old fashioned tone, but it’s experiencing a resurgence in modern Thai amongst youngsters right now. Yok drops from pom to rao in Not Me only AFTER he and Dan kiss, which is very sweet and gentle. Pete in Love By Chance is a chronic rao user.

I’ve talked about ter before = เธอ (ter/thoe). We are taught ter as she/her when learning Thai. That would be the formal and polite use but actually it’s rarely spoken that way. It’s not frozen register, it is used as she/her, but not often.

When ter shows up in Thai BLs it tends to show up as you, which application used to be frozen register. AKA originally it entered parlance only in songs/poems in particular (so like thee/thou in English). As you it’s not gender specific. When Tine sings his song to Sarawat at the end of Still 2gether he uses ter for you. In normal conversation, these two characters use mueng. In formal situations they tend to use each others names. But in song, Tine uses ter. It has an old fashioned romantic connotation when used in this way and is often paired with the I pronoun rao as a result.

One time we hear ter=you discussed in BL is He’s Coming to Me. Thun calls his mother ter over the phone, and Mes thinks Thun is talking to a lover. Imagine picking up the phone or running into someone and saying softly, “Hay, you.” It’s sweet. Thun uses ter with his mother instead of maa because, as his mother explains later, maa makes her feel old. This is a bit like giving one’s parent a pet name and is showcasing how close Thun is to her.

Park & Lee (LTR) use ter as their primary love language in My Secret Love, they expose themselves as being a relationship by using ter in public.

When White is pretending to be Black with Black’s girlfriend in Not Me he struggles with pronouns and then opts for rao/ter, which turns out to be a mistake and nearly gives him away. (She ends up assuming it’s Black going off her and wanting to break up, presumably this means they actually used guu/mueng.)

Here’s a YT vid where a Thai language teacher talks about modern use of ter & rao.

There is also gher which is not polite, it’s not fully rude either, it’s certainly informal. It’s generally used between friends when mueng would be too rude or too much of an invitation. Anda and Bank, who are friends, but not intimates (although Bank would like them to be) use rao/gher with each other in Love Stage! This one is also very common within the queer community and between gay men/women or women/women friends.

Nai & the Mafia

So in 2022 Thai BLs seriously started moving setting outside of the school systems and thus added new pronouns (for us watchers) into the mix. KinnPorsche, Even Sun, and Unforgotten Night all use the pronoun nai (นาย) for you between men. Like many honorifics & pronouns, it's derived from a minor title of nobility. In the 19th century it was declared the official courtesy title for adult males - regarded as a direct translation of "Mr".

It has several different uses today.

As a title, it only appears before the real given name (not surname), in official/formal contexts, e.g. when writing down one's name on an exam paper, job application, or government form. If used with a nickname, it implies a bit of irony (like a teacher calling out a misbehaving student).

As a pronoun, it's usually an informal second-person pronoun used with males of equal status. It's a decidedly non-rude word, so it'll be used among friends/classmates if they don't feel close enough to use gu/mueng (or if a person just doesn't use rude pronouns, like swear words there are people who don’t feel comfortable ever saying guu/mueng).

Rao/nai as pronouns used to be the default mode of address on TV before gu/mueng became acceptable to broadcast in the 2010s.

When used by females, nai is pretty much equivalent to males using ter with females - so an old fashioned but intimate and sweet, loving.

On TV, the use of ter/nai is probably most often associated with straight dramas in the acquaintance phase of courting.

Nai also has the meaning "boss" (similarly to the combined form เจ้านาย (jao nai/chao nai). If it's being used as a pronoun in a more formal or deferential context (like organized crime), it is used in this sense.

Usage number 2 & 6 are the ones we see in Thai BL. All that said I understand as a tourist in Thailand, you will hear nai but not all that often. It’s fine to use khun instead/back, but good to know to identify nai.

(I am indebted to my Thai linguistic spy, who is v secretive and shall remain nameless for this information. THANK YOU!!!!)

The lost Ai (Ee)

Ai'+ name was technically once supposed to be used between male age mates but it is usually dropped in BL and on the interview circuit. Seems to have become frozen in this form.

In BL it will be applied with a long drawn out tone when insult is required between close friends. Ae and Pond do it a lot in Love By Chance. In which case Ai'+name is a little like an affectionate "my asshole friend here." The opposite is also true, Ai can be softened and applied for affection.

Fiat uses Ai’Leeooo with Leo all the time in Don’t Say No. It’s a kind of bratty affection coming from him. Leo, on the other hand, only uses Ai’Fiat when he is annoyed af with his boy.

Informality between same year/age mates (or from older to younger) can be better tracked through the use of no honorifics and the application of guu/mueng pronouns for I/you and the use of wa particle instead of krap/kha. These are all gender neutral. But you will rarely if ever hear these used on the promo circuit between actors. They are quite rude.

Khun

Once you're out and about in the workplace khun is pretty much required, unless you're invited by your older workplace mates to revert back to phi. This can be made immediately clear to you because that workmate will just use phi in conversation when referring to themself, and that means you have been invited to call them phi instead of khun - it's a gesture of friendship. You can see this in SOTUS S.

Here’s Perth talking about the basics of all of this.

Impolite or Flexible Particles:

There are no hard and fast rules here except that a tourist should use kha/krap particles and khun honorifics.

Here's a quick guide to train your ear, these will come at the end of sentences.

Formal polite particles:

krap used by male identified individuals

... but kap! = curt slightly more informal

... but krrap rolling the “r” = sarcasm

kha/ka used female identified individuals

.... but very rarely a drawn out sarcastic kaaa is a bit tough/agro/bad, the hardness of the “k” noise makes a difference

... sometimes softened to be more like ha, and often sarcastic (or getting a little queer)

si for imperatives and mandates (orders)

na to soften, question, and plead

Krap/kha can also be used alone as verbal acknowledgement agreement especially to an adult or someone older than you. However, when a boy uses solo krap with his boyfriend or someone younger than him or an age-mate it’s almost always sarcastic. Like “yessir” or “sure, dude.”

Informal but still somewhat polite particles:

kha used by third gender identified individuals

la for mild entreaty

sa for forced encouragement

di for imperatives and mandates (orders)

Informal household intimate particles

ja used with very close friends/family and by the queer community, friendly and informal

kha used by a male identified person for certain VERY specific reasons

ha as used with lovers and close family members, intimate and informal

Rude particles, to be used ONLY with piers after an established relationship

gu/mueng for I/you pronouns (not particles, but it's important to know this as BL uses this all the time but travelers NEVER SHOULD)

wa for questions

THERE ARE A TON OF EXCEPTIONS.

Kha particle as used by a man. A hard kha may be used by (or occasionally with) members of the queer community by those who identify as male and would formally use krap. A soft kha may be used by a man talking to a much younger girl (Pete, who ALWAYS uses krap, uses kha with Ae's niece in Love By Chance because he is being very gentle/soft with her). A male player picking up women in a bar may also use kha.

Ja & ha particles. Queer and gay-identified performers and Thai third gender (kathoey) have more flexibility with their particles even in formal situations (if they want) and may use ja or ha instead of krap/kha. Ja seems slightly more associated with femininity and ha with neutral or masculinity. Most kathoey use kha (hard and soft) and ja particles. Most gay men (masculine identified) use krap except when talking to their queer community, then they will pick up kha, ja, or ha.

More on ha. Outside of queer ha is used amongst family members (and intimates) with loads of affection attached. (Phun uses ha with his adored younger sister in Love Sick.) Because it is a little cutsie it can also be used between lovers in a teasing capacity. It’s the kind of thing we might get in a certain jocular LTR on screen. (Honestly, I could see MaxTul popping in a ha or two IRL just to fuck with us.) Bad Buddy trots out a ha when wrestling in the final episode. I have rarely heart actors use it on circuit.

ha slides into and gets confused easily (sometimes intentionally by the speaker) with the soft kha. This shizz is v complicated.

June in Love Area 2 is one of my all time favorite linguistic characters. June is agender INCLUDING linguistically (I use agender intentionally since we can’t tell if the character is butch, FTM, gender fluid, or gender neutral). I legitimately have been told this was not possible in the Thai language. June uses the ha particle only, and sparingly, and has never gendered self or been gendered by others as part of the narrative. June is linguistically curt and a bit rude as a result, but the surrounding characters never seem very offended by this, even older generations. It is FASCINATING.

I also have a post on Touch & Daisy in Secret Crush On You - Queer Coded Language and 3rd Gender Identity and how touch moves between registers and into ha to flirt with Daisy.

There are, so far as I can gather, no polite but queer particles. So, in a way, queerness exists within low register in Thailand... which implies queerness only exists amongst peers & intimates. There’s a goddamn cultural anth + linguist’s PhD wrapped up in this one, so I’m backing away slowly.

What I’m talking about here has to do with registers. This all does actually. All about Thai registers here.

(source)

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