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hug-a-squid-today · 11 days ago

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(This might just be my own opinion, but I think the whole thing with Ansur becomes a lot more tragic if Emperor is still fundamentally Balduran. Because then it recontextualizes that situation from "What Ansur saved is an Illithid with Balduran's memories", to "Ansur did manage to save Balduran, but he couldn't accept how much Balduran had changed". It's a very heartbreaking way to interpret what happened between them, and I find it to be super interesting.

(Either way you interpret it, though, there was no way the Emperor could ever be who Ansur wanted him to be.)

It's definitely a very tragic read and i don't necessarily disagree, considering how good the game is at keeping things ambiguous. (except for how the Ansur cutscene got redone in one of the later updates to make the Emperor seem more evil for some reason?? Deadass i don't personally consider the new cutscene to be canon because it retcons how long Balduran had been infected by the time Ansur found him and it's just less interesting than the original imo but Anyway...) Ansur saved Balduran from the illithid colony, but then Balduran's continued existence as a brain-eating monster went against Ansur's morals. Ansur found himself forced to either reverse Balduran's transformation or kill him, and of course he failed to reverse ceremorphosis since it's impossible (afaik even a wish spell can't do it because ceremorphosis consumes the soul/transforms it into a non apostolic one). He didn't have much of a choice to kill what was Balduran. In the past, i've compared it to putting down a zombie of someone you love, from Ansur's perspective.

Seeing all of this from Balduran's eyes would indeed be absolutely heartbreaking, especially when then faced with the choice of either fighting for his life or accepting death. He knows Ansur doesn't hate him, which is why when the Emperor speaks to Ansur's ghost, there's no anger or boasting, and it calls him "old friend". It's just a situation where they both did what they had to do; Ansur to keep Balduran's memory intact, and the Emperor to, y'know, not die.

My version of the events is that the Emperor remembered many things about Balduran and tried its best to say whatever could convince Ansur not to kill it, but it turned out to be a losing battle. When it came time for Ansur to put it down, the Emperor refused to just keel over. But after trying so hard to be Balduran, the line between the Emperor and its host blurred, and trying to figure out where one ends and the other begins is impossible to do. It's like a mind flayer virus in full control of a PC that used to belong to Balduran, if that makes any sense. But at the same time, illithids aren't supposed to remember that much about their hosts, so there's definitely something ~weird~ about the whole thing, and i like leaving that question mark there. Severe partialism? The Adversary? Dunno, but i enjoy the speculation more than i would a solid answer.

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hug-a-squid-today · 14 days ago

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illithid travelogue: chislev, fourth planet of krynn's solar system

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hug-a-squid-today · 15 days ago

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I love when a character wants to be someone's dog so so bad. Dont mean it in a sexual way (although that can also be a part of it) I mean like. Let me be your loyal companion let me stay by your side give me a purpose in exchange for endless unconditional love let me stop being a person love me like it's my only use. Love me like that's the only thing I was made for. As you can tell. I'm normal.

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hug-a-squid-today · 15 days ago

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anyone else ever think about them still

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hug-a-squid-today · 16 days ago

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That's a good point, yeah. Still, the Adversary prophecy is so vague that it could be interpreted a number of ways.

Emperor's situation is a lot more complex than just having Balduran's memories, because Withers recognizes Emperor as Balduran at one point (he points at Emperor and says something like "I recognize this one"). So there's probably something of Balduran still in there, but we don't know how, why, or even how much. He's just a very weird situation.

(A theory I've been toying with is that it's specifically the modified Astral Tadpoles that create "Adversary"-like Illithids who retain their memories and sense of self, and that the magic in the modified tadpoles transforms their souls into non-Apostolic souls instead of destroying them. So if Balduran was a test subject for one of those Astral Tadpoles, that could be a neat explanation for Emperor's whole Thing. (And since the Absolute implies it let him be free, it could've specifically engineered him to be a potential Adversary to further its own plans.))

The Adversary myth is definitely vague and leaves a lot up to interpretation since it's literally one paragraph long. (Some AD&D adventures touch on it, but they don't really clarify what "Adversary" means, and the Adversary in those adventures used herbs to keep its mind intact, which doesn't seem to be Balduran's case.) At this point I'm a fan of the Adversary as a group of illithids opposing the Grand Design, it just makes sense to me.

The astral tadpole is definitely the thing that gives me pause every time i get to that point of the game, and i honestly like your theory. The elder brain must have had her own plans before getting Crown of Karsus'd, so she totally could've experimented on Balduran and others to create new types of illithids using transformed tadpoles, much like other colonies experiment with different hosts for different results. It also explains how the Emperor shows up with this tadpole seemingly out of nowhere in the game. Maybe it knew where it was stored on the Astral Plane, and there could be others.

I do also believe illithids have souls, but that since they're non-apostolic they're worthless to human/elven gods, which is why Withers says they don't have any; how would Ilsensine exist otherwise? The idea that the astral tadpole transforms the host's soul instead of destroying it is really interesting, and it would explain what the astral tadpole actually does. I still personally like seeing the Emperor as an illithid with partialism who takes on the role of Balduran when it serves but has fully replaced Balduran himself, but that's just because that's the version that resonates with me the most.

Your theories are solid, i'm stealing the bit about the astral tadpole (with credit ofc)

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hug-a-squid-today · 20 days ago

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I think my favorite interpretation of the Emperor is that he's the Illithid Adversary-which in D&D Lore is an Illithid who basically retains their memories and their soul. So in every way that matters, he is still Balduran.

And yet, at the same time, he's not Balduran either. Despite staying "himself", the things that he went through (Ceremorphosis, being stuck in the colony and having to hide his past from an all-encompassing psychic force, Ansur trying to "cure" him when he didn't want that (and later trying to kill him), and so on,) changed him fundamentally, and he can never go back to being "Balduran" again. (Sometimes, he almost wishes he didn't retain so much of his past life.)

I really like the concept of the Adversary, but i'm not 100% convinced that's what the Emperor is, purely because it doesn't seem particularly focused on destroying the illithid civilisation, as described in the Illithiad. It even likes being a mind flayer and encourages the player to become one too. With that said, if it survives until the end in BG3, it successfully helps destroy what is arguably the most powerful elder brain to ever exist and the biggest step towards the achievement of the Grand Design in... maybe forever, so the Adversary Emperor theory does hold water. The Adversary legend just needs to be interpreted as a warning against an illithid who would oppose the Grand Design, rather than one who hates its own kind and wants to eradicate it indiscriminately.

I personally like the theory that illithid!Tav is the Adversary since it's clear that Tav remains the same person after ceremorphosis, and that their tadpole is different due to the Crown of Karsus. The Emperor even uses the astral tadpole to complete the ceremorphosis, plus by going down that route, you're the one who eats Orpheus' brain and gains his power. As an illithid, Tav is ultra special, and especially powerful in-game. Then again, there's no specific reason why they'd then go hunt down other colonies to destroy them as per the legend, it depends on the Tav, so it's really just a possibility. (I just realized while writing that illithid!Tav and the Emperor could totally both be the Adversary as a team if they wanted; they're both unusual mind flayers who remember who they were, and together they're both immune to elder brains, so why not?)

Lastly, i fully agree that the Emperor is and isn't Balduran at the same time. It definitely remembers at least most of its life pre-ceremorphosis, but after all that's happened, even if it were turned back into Balduran somehow, it could never be the same. Balduran as he was doesn't exist anymore. Ansur trying to save then kill him is especially painful given that it was a lost cause from the start.

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hug-a-squid-today · 21 days ago

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alright I rag on the Emperor a lot but I'm gonna point out some nice things today, as I do sincerely love its character (the bad and the good!)

now that ALWF is getting to the point of the story where it's clear they're in the early stages of catching feelings for one another, I do really enjoy this facet of Thyneron's relationship with the Emperor, and the contrasting effect they have on each other

The Emperor is very much Thyneron's "strength". Thyneron is passive to all kinds of faults, but the Emperor does actually believe in his ability to keep up with the other companions (or even outshine them, with the proper tadpoles tools). But the Emperor is also shrewd enough to see that if it gives Thyneron the chance to back out of a task or important action, he will... so it simply does not allow him that option. I think it really would derive a lot of joy from watching Thyneron grow into himself, and learn to stand on his own two feet.

On the flipside, I do think Thyneron has a softening effect on the Emperor. I think the Emperor is (rightly) wary and guarded, even with people it can read the minds of, but Thyneron demonstrates again and again that it can relax at least a few of those walls. That this really is a two way partnership, and that it needs to meet him in the middle and work together as a unit. I believe it wanted to do this, but would be justifiably anxious about either reliving Stelmane 2.0, or having him turn on it after learning it's a mind flayer.

For his many flaws, Thyneron is easily affectionate, even with friends (or people he doesn't realize he's falling for), and I think this would be an oasis in the desert of everything the Emperor has been through since it became illithid. That's not to say the Emperor didn't nudge Thyneron in certain directions, or play on specific anxieties and fears, but even I would agree with the Emperor that those were born of the necessity of trying to stay alive (or give Thyneron the slightly more violent push he needed to get out of his shell).

All in all, it could have handled things better, but I do believe it really did try to handle Thyneron as with as much care as it could, while juggling protecting the entire group, itself, and trying to ensure it wouldn't be killed even after the brain was destroyed.

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hug-a-squid-today · 22 days ago

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Junus I was talking about this on discord with a friend.

In one of your tags you mentioned you align The Emperor as "evil". And although I disagree based purely on personal interpretation and being a soft-hearted wimp, plz write me an unhinged ramble on your thoughts and opinions UwU 💖

(also I'm slowly trying to give ALWF proper attention I'm just very slow because everything happens so much but I really like it so far. Your prose is very good which is always an awesome bonus with a fic)

You know, I thought of several ways I wanted to tackle this question. I thought about writing a more “tumblr acceptable” answer, but honestly, you asked me to give it to you unhinged, so here it is. Before I get into it, genuinely thank you for this question. I value the ability to disagree politely, and I really do love to see a wide variety of takes and opinions, as I consider them vital to the fandom ecosystem.

With all of that said, these are merely my opinions and interpretations, and I do not think that I am objectively “correct” in any way. I genuinely enjoy softer and kinder reads of the Emperor, but this is my own take on its morality.

Full response below the cut. This is going to lean dark, so read on carefully.

I have a lot of potential responses to this, but I’m going to cut to the most obvious part first: Belynne Stelmane. Specifically, the scene where the Emperor reveals the true nature of their “partnership.” This is old and well-trodden ground where most Emperor fans are concerned, but what I don’t ever see people talk about are the sexual undertones of this scene, where both the PC and Stelmane are concerned.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this truth only triggers when the Emperor is propositioning the PC for sex. Similarly, I think it was an intentional design choice to introduce Stelmane laying in bed, gasping and groaning as the Emperor is taking control of her. Even the framing of the scene positions the Emperor above her, in a position of indisputable power and dominance.

In the following scene, you see the two working at the Shield headquarters (not unusual, though certainly more sinister than it had originally shown), but much more telling is the scene that follows. The Emperor wasn’t content just operating the Shield together—it also forced her to sit and drink with it, to be social with it, in a gruesome parody of camaraderie and companionship. There is no work related explanation for that scene, and you catch a glimpse of the same scene even in the Emperor’s original telling of its life story at the end of Act II. In that same Act II dialogue, that’s the specific part where it tells the PC that it was “happy”.

Following the scene, the game cuts back to the Emperor, now standing shirtless over the PC, not dissimilar to how it was framed with Belynne Stelmane. The Emperor is absolutely mean spirited in what it says next: “Did you like it - the truth? This was the alternative relationship we could have had. Aren’t you glad I finessed my methods?”

We all know what comes next. It tells the PC that they are its puppet, and that, without the Emperor, they have no value.

Now I’ve heard a lot of counter arguments to this scene, ranging from “you were an asshole to it by rejecting it so cruelly” to “it didn’t actually mean that, it had to protect itself”. Which is fine, as I stated above, my interpretations are my own. But to me, neither of those defenses hold water. I think “you shouldn’t have pissed it off” isn’t exactly the defense Emperor fans want it to be, because that paints the Emperor in an even worse light! I think a person should be able to reject someone (or some squid, as it were) as callously as they like, and the worst they should receive in return is “fine, fuck you too”. Not a fully raw display of the Emperor abusing someone else, and then overtly threatening to do the same to the PC if they don’t fall in line.

“If I must, I will force you.”

Call me a bleeding heart, but I don’t think that’s a good thing that good people say!

I was a full on Emperor defender right up until I saw this scene after my first playthrough. And honestly? I found it pretty difficult to stomach watching. This was such a dramatically different face from everything I’d seen on my first run. When you’re polite and deferential to the Emperor, it’s never anything less than sweet and kind. It will even tolerate a fair amount of insults and abuse before it cracks—but once it does crack, that mask comes all the way off.

On my second run, I really paid attention to the Emperor’s words and actions, and it was like playing a completely different game. A good example of this is what the Emperor does after your meeting with Raphael in Sharess’ Caress. On my first run (and second run, that replicated the first), I hadn’t bothered to hear out Raphael’s offer. I trusted the Emperor, and this damn devil wasn’t going to convince me otherwise. But the Emperor’s reaction to this is extremely telling—it will pry into to the PC’s memories and read their mind to figure out what happened. If you didn’t hear out Raphael, you don’t even have the option to try to stop its intrusion, it just does it. I hadn’t thought to question this at all on my first run, but on my second, I could see how insidious this scene truly was. Especially in light of the alternative dialogue that happens if you did hear Raphael out: the PC has the option to tell the Emperor that if it trust them, it will stop this. And the Emperor doesn't even immediately relent, you have to pass a skill check to prevent it from forcing your mind wide open. And even if you do pass it, the Emperor is very up front about the fact that it's done this begrudgingly.

Either way this plays out, I think it's one of the Emperor’s darkest moments in the game, because you catch a stark glimpse of the nature it hides from the PC, just for one moment. This is blatantly abusive and two-faced behavior. It’s manipulative, and will even tell you as much when pressed at the end of the game, before Orpheus is either consumed or freed.

And all of that doesn’t even get into my belief that Balduran was awful too. He extorted and enslaved people, all in his pursuit of money. The Emperor would continue this trend into its new life as well—the Shield is a fundamentally evil organization, built on preying on others to amass wealth, and further contribute to the enormous economic disparity of the Gate. The Emperor (and Stelmane by extension, because she is certainly no saint either) was not turning and giving this money to the poor. They were functionally robber barons of the Sword Coast, happy to exploit and plunder their way to riches untold.

So now we come to the heart of your question—does this paint the Emperor as evil? In my eyes it does. I would consider these to be unforgivable crimes… in real life. Thankfully, the Emperor is fictional, so to me this makes it an utterly fascinating and well rounded character. Yes, it’s capable of evil, but it’s also capable of so much good. This is where I feel that people come to blows over the Emperor. They want it to be either saint or demon, and in reality, I think it’s no different from characters like Astarion, Lae’zel, or even Shadowheart. It’s a complex and layered character, and it has evil under its belt, but that doesn’t mean that it lacks all virtue. I think the Emperor is considerate, attentive, and sincerely caring of both the city the PC, assuming they treat it decently. It’s a fantastically well written character that contains multitudes, and its divisiveness only speaks to how brilliantly Larian handled it.

So, to anyone who bothered reading this, I hope that shed some light on why I believe the Emperor is evil, but a very layered and dimensional evil. I don't think it does anything for the sake of being EVULZ, it's not harmful for the sake of fun, but it's utterly Machiavellian in the way it operates, and it isn't afraid to manipulate or abuse people to achieve its goals, which I think is fundamentally opposite of being "good".

#thank you for the response! this was a really good convo #now that you mention it i'd never noticed how eager the Emperor is in the endgame to have an illithid ally #but it does sound pretty desperate showering you with compliments if you choose to turn

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hug-a-squid-today · 22 days ago

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Love this analysis, but I just had to add my two cents about the Stelmane reveal that i've been thinking about ever since i watched it:

Im not sure how reliable the revelation that Stelmane was enthralled actually is. The point of the Emperor showing this to Tav is purely to intimidate them. There's no reason why it wouldn't twist the truth to make itself sound scarier to a Tav who rejects it by basically going "ew gross" (i think it's legitimately hurt by that response of overt disgust coming from a Tav it trusted enough to proposition to, hence the reaction; a bad reaction, true, but an explainable one). Which is to say, i'm not sure it was taking its mask off rather than just putting on a different one to get back at them.

Seeing how the Emperor visited Stelmane regularly after her stroke and how it genuinely seems to miss and mourn her, i *personally* believe her enthrallment happened one of two ways. One, it was an accident; over time, the Emperor manipulated her more and more until its control reached an extent it never really meant it to. Or two, it was an impulsive decision it came to regret.*

I believe that the Emperor's "finessing" of its methods is evidence of regret, or at least second thoughts, regarding Stelmane's enthrallment, and possibly enthrallment in general.** Otherwise, why refrain from puppeteering the PCs from the beginning, while its very life and freedom are on the line? I think it speaks of some level of morality, or at least to the Emperor's love of freedom being applied outside of itself. It's no paragon of virtue, but by illithid standards, it's a big softie, at least in its interpersonal relationships. I can't really speak of how it runs the Knights of the Shield because i'm unfamiliar with them outside of what is seen in BG3, though i know they run Baldur's Gate from the shadows and that Gortash determined that some of their clients were under psionic influence (probably not full enthrallment but still a form of manipulation, so yeah that's bad).

I wholeheartedly agree that the Emperor is overall evil, but to me the Stelmane reveal always felt... Weird? Forced? Like yeah that's fully within its power and mind flayers have done much worse things, but it had reason to make the memory look as bad as possible. Why would it choose this specific moment to turn fully honest after weeks of dishonesty?

*It could very well feel no regret about Stelmane and just be sad about her murder, but my copium supplier gives me the good stuff.

**I also have a theory that due to having only spent little time in an illithid colony with a resonance stone right after ceremorphosis (and its potential partialism), the Emperor may be incapable of "safely" enthralling people, and that could be the cause of Stelmane's stroke and why it didn't seem to have any other thralls. That's pure conjecture though.

Junus I was talking about this on discord with a friend.

Full response below the cut. This is going to lean dark, so read on carefully.

We all know what comes next. It tells the PC that they are its puppet, and that, without the Emperor, they have no value.

“If I must, I will force you.”

Call me a bleeding heart, but I don’t think that’s a good thing that good people say!

#i hope this is coherent because my first draft read like drunken ramblings #bg3 #bg3 emperor #plus the fact that the scene with Stelmane mirrors the one with Tav feels like Emp made an effort #to either pick the moment most like the current situation #or to make up a scene parallel to the current moment so that Tav would pick up on the resemblance and get scared

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hug-a-squid-today · 24 days ago

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everything was beautiful and nothing hurt

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hug-a-squid-today · 28 days ago

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Junus I was talking about this on discord with a friend.

Full response below the cut. This is going to lean dark, so read on carefully.

We all know what comes next. It tells the PC that they are its puppet, and that, without the Emperor, they have no value.

“If I must, I will force you.”

Call me a bleeding heart, but I don’t think that’s a good thing that good people say!

#great analysis as always #i wanted to give my own two cents but im afraid my tags would be annoying

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