krakeninajar

[krakeninajar]

there's a fourth genre of trans woman, the God's Gift To Trannies, whose personality is constantly patting herself on the back through lectures to any trans woman expressing hurt over transmisogyny—"well I'M happy and well-adjusted and have a strong support network and have a great career and etc., why don't you try learning by my example instead of choosing to be unhappy?"

[krakeninajar]

One of the most frustrating things that transandrophobia truthers do is try to redefine transmisogyny to mean simply "transphobia experienced by trans women," robbing it of all its actual theoretical utility and reducing it to the most inane word game. It's not enough for them to center men in discussions of women's oppression, to produce misogyny apologism, to denounce and disregard the most fundamental idea of feminism and take an outright anti-feminist stance; they also pretend to listen only to use our analytical tools for the purpose of weakening them and rendering them useless. It is itself egregious transmisogyny.

[krakeninajar]

pedantry so dire that it's mentioned in the wikipedia article for "trans woman".

dogwhistles are called dogwhistles because they are subtle and pass unnoticed by people who don't have the context for them. if you genuinely stand against transphobia & transmisogyny, then you should have no problem being told that you're using transmisogynistic dogwhistles.

[krakeninajar]

Every day someone on this website argues that trans women are not the victims of transmisogyny

[krakeninajar]

funny how when someone uses the term “gender essentialism” there’s like 1/3 chance they actually mean “bio essentialism” and a 1/3 chance they actually mean “belief in male privilege”

[krakeninajar]

[krakeninajar]

like genuinely what could "step away from the computer"/"touch grass" mean as a refutation to a conversation about racism other than "let's all retreat to the Real World where i'm personally unaffected by violent racism due to the social circles i've catered for myself and the things i choose to pay attention to"

[krakeninajar]

but you'll happily listen to the people talking over transfems when we bring up the most basic fucking feminist points like "men are not oppressed for being men", and even do it yourself! good to know.

also lol, "go outside". motherfucker, im homeless. i live in the outside. turns out men - cis and trans - are misogynistic and benefitting from patriarchy here too

One particular reason I dislike ‘transandrophobia discourse’ is it often follows a motte-and-bailey structure.

A person claims “transandrophobia does not exist”. The obvious interpretation of this claim is “transmasculine people do not experience oppression”.

Upon receiving pushback, the discourser retreats to the bailey: “Androphobia does not exist; men are not oppressed”.

This completely ignores the fact that the reason the word transandrophobia was chosen was to acknowledge the fact that systematic misandry is not a feature of our society, and more insidiously paints anyone responding to the motte argument as stupid, sexist, or otherwise unreasonable.

If you do not believe that transmasculine people do not face oppression, then don’t phrase your claims in a way that implies it.

[krakeninajar]

do you think that maybe, believing that no one's opinions matter if they aren't a man is why people call you lot transmisogynists? do you think that maybe, in a struggle for trans liberation the transfems might have something worthwhile to say? do you think that maybe the struggle to end patriarchy should be a feminist-led fight, and that transfeminists might fucking be worth listening to?

One particular reason I dislike ‘transandrophobia discourse’ is it often follows a motte-and-bailey structure.

A person claims “transandrophobia does not exist”. The obvious interpretation of this claim is “transmasculine people do not experience oppression”.

Upon receiving pushback, the discourser retreats to the bailey: “Androphobia does not exist; men are not oppressed”.

This completely ignores the fact that the reason the word transandrophobia was chosen was to acknowledge the fact that systematic misandry is not a feature of our society, and more insidiously paints anyone responding to the motte argument as stupid, sexist, or otherwise unreasonable.

If you do not believe that transmasculine people do not face oppression, then don’t phrase your claims in a way that implies it.

[krakeninajar]

the fact that estrogen can just make the penis act like a clitoris will never fail to impress me because it shows just how much of an effect hormones have on our bodies. however the fact that hardly anyone talks about this and instead expects all girl dick to act like cis guy dick is very bleak. it's also exactly in line with how misogyny demands the mystification women's genitals and bodies in order to strip women of their own autonomy and subjectivity more generally, because that's exactly what it is. you aren't supposed to acknowledge the biological realities of transfeminine bodies, because in order to benefit from transmisogyny you must deny us our humanity by living in ignorance about us and casting us strictly into the realm of "sex object"

[krakeninajar]

it definitely wont catch on, but im bringing back twerf. they're trans woman exclusionary radical feminists, not just trans exclusionary. we're the primary targets of their hate and the one group of people they wont welcome as allies; whereas tme trans people are welcomed by terfs as allies, as long as they hate tma trans people.

feel like its important to recognize and remember who the primary target of twerf violence is, especially in an environment that is increasingly willing to condemn transfeminists as terfs (or "trf"s or just radfems)

[krakeninajar]

So like

The thing about nothorses, right?

Is that the self-described "ex-terf" never actually stopped being a terf in any way shape or form, he still reblogs from terfs, he's still mutuals with terfs, he still aspouses terf rhetoric

The only thing that changed about him is that he realized he was a trans man

So instead of examining his ideology built off of the hatred of trans women, he simply modified that ideology slightly to fit with his new identity

One where his form of trans identification is fine, but the bedrock of terfism is still present with trans women being the ultimate evil in his cosmology

And this also coincides with a desire to rebrand what the wider queer community sees as a "terf", which didn't take much effort because tme people don't really care about terfs beyond "those people I put in my dni", and are incredibly willing to accept their degendering of trans women as an actual distaste for men

So now, if you say "men (and therefore trans men) experience privilege over women (and therefore trans women)", the average politically illiterate tme (and tma) will declare you a terf

This is why the transandrophobia movement is the most successful terf movement of all time, as it not only makes trans womens' oppression about trans men, it also simultaneously blankets and degrades the term terf (a group motivated entirely by their hatred of trans women) to any trans woman who talks about feminism

[krakeninajar]

the reason that (trans)feminists talk about (trans) men speaking over us is because that's how misogyny functions. it happens literally everywhere. and in order to combat this one specific aspect of oppression, which also occurs in like. every other axis of oppression. we've set a standard:

the people who actually experience the oppression always get to speak first. at the feminist table, women get to speak. at the antiracist table, Black people get to speak. etc. and in intersectional rooms we listen to the trans women of color, the Black women, the homeless women.

this is not because we hate men, its not because we're better or smarter or even because we're more of an authority on our own experiences (although we are).

its redressing the balance. everywhere outside this space, no one will listen to me, no one will hear me, no one will let me speak. and even fewer people will listen to my twoc partner.

so where we can, we make an active effort to ensure that the voices of those who never get to speak can be heard. and we ask anyone else to do the same.

my point being, it's a one-way road. with the way we use the term "speaking over" in feminist discussion, trans men cannot speak over cis men, because trans people are already being talked over by cis people all the fuckin time.

"speaking over" is a reminder that "hey, you need to recognize that you have the privilege for your voice to be heard everywhere, remember that by being here, you agreed to try to mitigate that privilege by letting others speak who dont get to be listened to by default."

in the same way, Black people cant ever be said to be "speaking over" white people. Disabled people dont "speak over" abled people. and women cant "speak over" men.

when we apply this to intersectionality, then both/all affected axes of oppression should be taken into consideration. when the Black woman speaks, the white people and the men shut up. and when the trans woman speaks, the cis people and the men shut up. and trans men are men, y'all are included in that "shut up".

transfeminists are not "speaking over" you. we literally can't; due to the way transmisogyny functions and the privilege y'all get for being men, your voices will always be listened to over ours. always.

when we tell you to listen to transfems, to sit down and be quiet, we are begging for (or demanding) a redressing of the balance. and when y'all complain about us "talking over you", you react exactly the same way shitty misogynistic cis men do when they're called out by cis feminists.

[krakeninajar]

this is literal terf shit. sex-based oppression, like come on. this is equating transfems with manhood, and transmascs with womanhood. its also demonstrating an astounding lack of understanding of transfeminist theory.

like. im sorry but no. androphobia (or misandry or what have you) is not real, so transfems absolutely dont face it. (neither do transmascs.)

you cannot take the rhetoric of hate groups at face value. they will say whatever they have to in order to make their beliefs seem reasonable and justifiable.

when analyzing interpersonal manifestations of oppression, we look at actions, how we are treated. we do not engage with the rhetoric, because that is to accept the hate group on their terms. and when we analyze oppression as a whole, we look first at systems and structures of oppression, not interpersonal interactions.

in both cases, tramsfems are treated as "women, but worse". failed women, disposable woman, rapeable women.

yes, hate groups will say they see us as men, but a) this isnt a considered thought-out reason for enacting transmisogyny, its a self-justification for the tranamisogynistic thoughts and feelins they already had. and b) hate groups dont treat us as men, and they dont treat men the way they treat us.

calling us "men" and claiming that's why they hate us is just twerf rhetoric, which you've swallowed hook, line, and sinker in your efforts to justify the existence of transandrophobia. this is where that leads, with you agreeing with the twerfs that hate us. it's the only place it can lead

some of yall don’t realize that a good chunk of what trans women experience IS androphobia. but we don’t call it “transandrophobia” [trans androphobia] because they are women. we call it transmisogyny [transphobia against transfems]. we all agree on that

so

even though a good chunk of what trans men experience is misogyny, we call it transandrophobia [transandro phobia] [transphobia against transmascs] because we are not women

[krakeninajar]

"the obivous interpretation" lol, you mean the bad faith interpretation. this isnt people changing our positions when you successfully counter, its us clarifying and explaining when you deliberately misunderstand.

we already have a word for the oppression trans men face for being trans, its called transphobia. the only reason to coin transandrophobia is because you believe that trans men are oppressed for being men specifically, which would require systemic oppression of men as a class to exist, which it does not.

ergo, it is not claiming trans men dont experience oppression to point out that transandrophobia is not an extant intersection of oppressions, y'all very much do experience oppression. for not being cis. not for being men.

One particular reason I dislike ‘transandrophobia discourse’ is it often follows a motte-and-bailey structure.

A person claims “transandrophobia does not exist”. The obvious interpretation of this claim is “transmasculine people do not experience oppression”.

Upon receiving pushback, the discourser retreats to the bailey: “Androphobia does not exist; men are not oppressed”.

This completely ignores the fact that the reason the word transandrophobia was chosen was to acknowledge the fact that systematic misandry is not a feature of our society, and more insidiously paints anyone responding to the motte argument as stupid, sexist, or otherwise unreasonable.

If you do not believe that transmasculine people do not face oppression, then don’t phrase your claims in a way that implies it.

[krakeninajar]

Crazzyyyy that we've turned unemployed into an insult. Especially to disparage women and particularly trans women. Like I feel like maybe you should wonder why there's a large intersection between marginalized women and homelessness. Like this is blatant antifeminism and classism and everyone acts like its normal!

[krakeninajar]

I need y’all to understand that trans women can also use and perpetuate transmisogyny against other trans women. Fuck, the woman (a prominent transfeminist and partner of another prominent transfeminist of color) who TAUGHT me about transfeminism and was instrumental in a lot of the formative beliefs that became my current views on community care and responsibility later participated heavily in the HAL against me because her abusive best friend hated me, despite her admitting she knew it was a lie and refusing to do the same to much worse (white) trans women.

Trans women are not immune to the temptations of white supremacy and transmisogyny, even against other trans women (of any race). You MUST make an active choice to not act on those temptations and keep other trans women safe even if you fucking hate them.