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macgyverseries · 3 years

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rebutting and debunking frequently used arguments against macriley

I made this 10-page google doc rant a while ago, but I never ended up posting it. Today, however, I woke up and chose violence. So here it is: my thoughts on frequently used arguments against macriley.

I took some quotes and arguments that people put online (reddit, tumblr..), and I debunked them all :p I feel like I always see the same arguments all the time, and I’m honestly getting a little tired of hearing them. I’m here to settle this once and for all.

and yes, i did manage to cut down the google doc by 3 pages :D (but it's still long af so rip my brain)

1.”Mac and Riley are siblings because Jack is their father”

I can (mostly) get behind the argument that Mac and Riley shouldn’t be in a romantic relationship because of their super strong friendship. Some people really value that sole platonicness, and I get that.

But the argument that I can’t get behind is that: Mac and Riley are siblings because Jack is their father figure”

If you google the definition of “father,” the first result that comes up is: “a man in relation to his children.”

Now, Jack was definitely the father figure to Riley, and I would consider her his child. He raised her. He helped shape her ideals and upbringing.

Mac only met Jack when he left MIT. So it was pretty much after Mac was raised (by Bozer’s parents haha), that Jack really came into his life. Mac already became his own person. (also, I always saw Mac and Jack as more of a bromance)

So because Riley and Mac met Jack at different periods of their lives, and they were raised differently, I wouldn’t say that they were siblings who were raised by the same father.

2. “The show writers left the impression that there was a huge age gap between them”

I understand this a little. I do think Riley was introduced as pretty young and idk naive? Because she was literally in highschool, and then she went to prison, and then she got released into the wild. Personally, when I started watching the show, I googled the whole cast. So I started the show knowing that they were the same age.

And also, the more I got to know Riley, the more that I thought that Riley was more mature and had an old soul herself. I think it was because she was just a dynamic and round character, who is well-developed.

But, I get first impressions. I feel like once you get stuck on an impression, it’s hard to go away from that.

Also, Jack would’ve totally shipped macriley, and you can’t change my mind.

3. "Riley isn't ready for a relationship"

I honestly think that this argument should be more geared towards Mac. He needs to figure himself out and go to therapy ffs. However, this person targeted Riley (the literal queen), so I shall defend her:

I understand wanting Riley to take some time off, and figure herself out before going straight into another relationship with someone. But here’s the thing. Throughout the first few seasons Riley’s character was very well established, and she didn’t have any partners during that time. She has proven that she is a strong, well-rounded, independent woman (with or without a partner). So i think it is valid to say that she isn’t just some girl who only has boy toys. She is much more than that.

My next point is that Riley has made it clear that she wants a lasting relationship with someone who will support her. When talking with Mac in 4.04, we see her express her interest in a stable, healthy relationship. It’s not wrong to go out and look for that potential partner. This applies to everyone (not just fictional characters): It’s going to take a few relationships and self-discovery, to find a good relationship, and people shouldn’t be shamed for searching for that.

Riley has only ever had two major boyfriends that I remember. First was Billy; she took that relationship very seriously. She really did seem happy with him. It was a shame that he cheated on her. Second was Aubrey. She also took that relationship very seriously. She had been living with him for six months (and they even had the cutest date nights!) So I wouldn't say that Riley only has boy toys. She has meaningful relationships.

Lastly, I think this was written when season four started airing, but it’s been over a year (and a pandemic) since Riley has dated. I think enough time has passed.

*4. I had to split this one up because, oh boy, there is a lot to unpack here.

4a. “If that was the direction they’d chosen to take with that relationship from square one… My issue with it is that Mac and Riley were presented to us as friends/ found siblings for three years. There were NO romantic vibes to speak of between them..”

I actually felt the same way about macriley. The thought of them being together in season one, made me want to throw up. I don’t think the writers intended on having macriley, and I was perfectly fine with that.

I know that people look for different things when they ship. Some really like having instant gratification with the spicy, hot, sexy parts of a relationship, like macdesi (which is why I was fine with the idea of shipping macdesi in the past).

I always wanted to see macriley do more: have hot, flirtatious banters/interactions. it can be hard to ship people who seem to be missing that part of the love equation. So i agree. It's definitely strange. And I understand if you genuinely have a hard time seeing the romantic potential of macriley, when the writers have only dragged out and shown us the platonic potential of them.

Also, the reason why it is difficult to see macriley as romantic, was because they ALWAYS PRIORITIZED AND WERE DRIVEN on their friendship. A partner should be friends first, and then makeout buddies second.

But just because people start off as friends, doesn’t mean that they still don’t have that potential to be lovers. Because guess what?! Feelings change. It’s now canon that Riley has feelings for Mac, and Mac always had feelings for Riley (but never acted on it).

I'm sorry, but you like a boomer when you say “bAcK iN mY dAy, tHeY dIdN’t HaVe fEeLiNgS fOr EaCh oThEr.” like okaAAAyyYYyYY????? We are not “back in your day” anymore. We are in the present. We are in today. And today, macriley is real :)

4b. “There’s the incredibly tired trope where long-term coworkers suddenly catch feelings for each other out of nowhere”

Personally, I will never get tired of the friends to lovers trope. I think the fact that Mac and Riley had such a strong friendship and foundation is what makes them perfect. Again, I know that some people just like instant gratification, but I love when a couple can take their time to have depth, emotion, and realness in their relationship.

Obviously I am biased because I have so much love for this trope, it's my favorite trope, but I don't see why you would use the “it’s overused” as reasoning to hate a ship. Just because a trope is used a lot, doesn’t mean it is bad (that’s probably why it is so good lmao). I can understand getting tired of it, and growing a dislike towards a trope. For example, I have grown an extreme dislike towards the love triangle.

A bit of a tangent: But the difference between overusing love triangles and overusing friends to lovers, is that love triangles aren’t just commonly used tropes. They are cliches. They cause unwanted drama and unnecessary hurt to one character. Whereas friends to lovers doesn’t involve as much drama and pain for a character. It is more of just angst between two people. And we know that they will get together eventually with a happy ending. So it was never really problematic.

And even then, the great thing about overusing or utilizing tropes, is that they can act as a guide. It allows the show writers and cast to make it personal, make it their own, adding their own special flair to it

I just don’t see the “this trope is used a lot” as a valid reasoning for disliking a ship .It just seems like this commenter doesn’t like the friends to lovers trope for the sake of not liking it.

I could be very wrong in my assumption of this person’s thoughts on friends to lovers, maybe there is a deeper reasoning as to why they don’t like it, but the tone that i interpreted when i read this section, was that they don’t have a real reason to dislike it, it’s more of just because.

4c.“then there's the fact that Riley had a mostly single Mac in her life for 3-4 years and she never even considered him romantically until he was with someone else”

First: Riley didn’t CHOOSE to fall in love. You may recall that “emotions aren’t a science. You can’t control them.”

Second: Mac was broken up with Desi when she caught feelings for him. Plus, the moment Riley saw that Mac and Desi were getting happy together, she moved out and gave them space. She sacrificed her own feelings for his happiness, despite the fact that her heart was breaking.

4d. “and finally, Mac not only still doesn't seem to even have Riley on his radar in that way but he literally told another woman that he loves her just last week. Neither of them look particularly good here if they get together now.”

I'm assuming that this was written when 4.12 first aired. I'm also assuming that this comment was more directed towards the idea of Mac and Riley getting together immediately at the end of the season, rather than later down the road. I always saw of macriley as more of endgame material. That i would see them get together sometime in the future. So I agree. Macriley getting together during that time period, would be too rushed and unsatisfying.

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So those were most of the supposed arguments that I saw for people who were against macriley, but I also wanted to provide some really good examples of people who were very respectable, and actually had valid reasoning for disliking them.

1. they just don’t like shipping in general

Ships can be annoying af. Seeing people ONLY focus on the ships is sometimes tiring. I, myself, even feel a little guilty making this post, because I need to chill and mind my own business lmaooo. I really should let people do whatever they want to do with their lives, and not get caught up in the ships, but here I am :p

Anyways, I know that there is a lot of unnecessary drama that comes with shipping, and it's tiring to see people constantly go on and on about romance, when there are other perfect things about the show.

2. No matter how hard they try, they just feel it.

This is literally so dumb (and a little hypocritical/self-contradictory), but if you have a gut feeling, and you just can’t get yourself to ship it, I get it. If you truly and genuinely believe that they are best platonic friends, I can't change your opinion. And I have respect for you (if you say it in a kind manner).

Here is a nice example of a person who expressed their opinion in a nice way, with no BS.

So the moral of the story: I can't control your deepest thoughts. I can't control your gut feelings. And that’s okay. But the moment that you start backing up your thoughts and insights with BS reasoning, is the moment that I lose respect for you.

#macriley #macgyver #sorry that was so freaking long

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macgyverseries · 3 years

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•this is LONG. um sorry, it might take brain power to read

•now that a bit of time has passed, i have gone through all the emotions of the last episode. at first, i was shocked, and then i was upset, but now, i’m calmed down and i think it was a pretty good episode. i think i realized that i don’t want a ship to ruin my whole thoughts on this show.

•im in the optimistic mood, so here are my thoughts regarding macdesi

•I have a feeling that the writers rushed and suddenly added this “plot line” in for desi and thought of it now. (Like I don’t think they planned her to have a late fiancé when she was first introduced in season 3). But I kinda understand why they chose to add it in, all of a sudden:

•it helps me understand/ have a little more insight as to why desi has acted and behaved the way she has in the past

•i’m still mad at her. and i don’t think that it’s an excuse for her mistakes. (like bruh she doesn’t have an excuse/ right for launching a missile at mac in 4.12, or for physically abusing him in 5.07)

•i’m also still frustrated at her inconsistency as a character. she is a different person every episode

•I genuinely am so glad that the writers are building her character. all I really want is for the writers to give us gradual desi development. but my issue is that they keep giving us bursts/ overload of her once in a few episodes. i’d prefer them to spoon-feed her development each episode. (one of the episodes i really liked was 4.04 because we saw a bit of her background, but we also saw other story lines, like russ/bozer and mac/riley

•but, despite these other things i’m frustrated at, this episode helps me better put things into perspective. almost everything she’s done had been in relation to loss and this experience:

•1. when she first joined the phoenix, she had her guards up high. she said she “wasn’t here to make friends” and she wasn’t a fan of opening up to the others. she doesn’t want to get too attached to them and lose important people again

•2. she chooses to stay in a relationship with mac (despite its extreme toxicity) because she hasn’t clicked with anyone in a long time. she just wants to “cling onto something familiar” or anything that will make her feel a little bit of love and safety.

•For the macdesi scenes of this episode, here are a few quotes i want to point out:

•”you don’t go from barely dating to engaged” —> i think this shows the weakness of their relationship. and desi RECOGNIZES that. i’m just glad she’s giving mac a bit of a wake up call for not thinking this through lmao

•”i’m just worried that maybe you’re some sort of emotional stand in for him. that instead of getting over his death, i kinda just replaced him with you” —> this was upsetting to hear, the first time i watched it, (bruh. mac deserves to be more than just a replacement), although i thought it was a little interesting to hear. it’s true honesty and communication from her. so i’ll give this line a pass, and appreciate the honesty for now

•”maybe you are, maybe you aren’t (an emotional stand in)”

“i’d like to know. the only way to do that is to live a normal life” —> when i first heard this line, i was PISSED. how could mac be called an emotional stand in, and still want to move in with her?!!?!!? but now, i don’t think mac wants to move in with her to take the NEXT STEP of their relationship. i think mac wants to move in with her to take the possible LAST STEP of their relationship.i think he wants to test-trial the move in to see if they really should break up (as opposed to test trial the move in to actually take a forward step to their relationship). im pretty sure we all already know that macdesi won’t work well when the adrenaline is gone and the “dust settles.” but i think it is necessary for them to do this. they need to give the relationship one final shot (with 110% effort) to fully know and realize that it won’t work. they need to come to terms with it (both individually as people, and together as a couple). i think it could give really good closure to macdesi.

•final thoughts:

•It’s just nice to see desi open up and communicate. i want desi development (but PLEASE, make it natural/ gradual)

•this was a good episode. (maybe even a great one!!!) these episodes are annoying af sometimes, but i think it is a necessary thing for the show

•all i’ve ever wanted is for every phoenix member to be happy (whether that means a good romantic partner or not). i just hope that mac and desi get the happiness that they deserve

•ps. I simp for Levy HER ACTING WAS SO GOOD I CANT

#angusmacgyver #macgyver #desiree nguyen

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