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metalspartan01 · 1 year ago

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[THALETAS ROMANCE GUIDE]

Hello and welcome to this little guide for the Thaletas romance from Assassin’s Creed Odyssey !

After many request about it, i’m finally doing the Thaletas romance guide ! First of all, i want to say something about this guide. The way i’m telling you to romance Thaletas is the better way i found by redoing seven or height times Delos and Mykonos’s quest. I wrote everything ALL BY MYSELF (*all by myself song in the background*) and without the help of the official guide i bought two days ago because they don’t say anything inside about what i found myself and without help. I used a lot of my time to write everything below, searching and trying every option in the game, etc… There is some details you probably never heard of and it can change the way your romance is showed : Ubisoft paid a real care about everything (or at least, they tried their best). Also, i’m sorry if my english isn’t perfect since it’s not my native language ! //!! Please, if you want to use this guide elsewhere, ASK ME BEFORE ! And if any of you guys find my guide on another website without my credits, send me a message/an ask. Thank you !!//

Here’s a list about things to know before starting the romance.

Sadly, you can’t recruit Thaletas on the Adrestia (your ship).

There is no real “happy ending”.

If you want the “best ending”, Kyra must kill herself.

Make several saves. After the quest “A night to remember”, you won’t be able to see Thaletas ever again.

DON’T DO THE “CALL TO ARMS” QUEST BEFORE “HEARTS OF WAR” : It delete the romance quest with Thaletas (even the quest “The Thaletas Way” and “Paint The Sand Red”) since these quests are here to prepare the “Call To Arms” quest !

Even little choices and details change everything.

If you have any trouble, don’t hesitate and ask me here.

GOOD TO KNOW: there is FOUR endings and only TWO of them are “good”. ONLY ONE has the best ending of all.

BAD ENDING 1: Kyra lives. When Thaletas starts to talk about your meeting on the beach earlier, you choose the first answer and she’ll say you and Thaletas “had your time of fun”. Thaletas stays with Kyra on Mykonos (and break up with you by doing that).

BAD ENDING 2: Kyra lives. When Thaletas starts to talk about your meeting on the beach earlier, you choose the last answer and she’ll say you and Thaletas “had your time of fun”. Thaletas stays with Kyra on Mykonos (and break up with you by doing that).

SAD BUT GOOD ENDING: Kyra kill herself. You go back to Thaletas and when he ask you where’s Kyra, tell him the truth : she took her life. He’ll scream [his reaction will change depending on what you choose to do during “M for Murder” [choosing to say to everyone about Kyra’s father or choosing to say privately to Kyra that Podarkes is her father]]. Then he’ll reject you, saying he wants to drink alone.

BEST ENDING: Kyra kill herself. You go back to Thaletas and when he ask you where’s Kyra, lie to him : Alexios will tell to Thaletas that Kyra will come later and will lie : he will say “She said to celebrate without her”. Thaletas will answer “Celebrate without her ? Hah ! Impossible !” and then… He’ll add “But let’s try !” and you’ll share a drink “to victor

Now that you know everything, you only have to follow the guide ! Knowing the different endings, i’ll guide you during all the quests who will change the end of your romance.

Are we ready now ? Yes ?! Let’s begin then !

You’ll receive the quest “Trouble In Paradise” after “Perikles’s Symposium”. Even if you’re lvl 18/20, you can do the quest (i did it when i was lvl 18) but it requires a lot of skills tbh (or if you play in easy mod, a lot of focus and patience). If you want to do the Thaletas romance without pain and try hard, i suggest you to begin when you’re lvl 25.

When you’ll arrive at Mykonos, you’ll have a little chat with Barnabas. Feel free to speak to him as you like since your choices aren’t important for the romance yet. Then, you’ll be able to choose who visit first between Kyra and Thaletas. THIS CHOICE CHANGE A LOT THE VIEW OF THE STORYTELLING.

Let me explain the difference :

SEEING THALETAS FIRST: If you’re going to see Thaletas first, he’s going to be jealous/possessive of you because you’re speaking about Kyra. It’s obviously a perfect scenario if you want to romance Kyra, but in this context, we want Thaletas… So, nope ! You’re going to wait before seeying the babe !

SEEING KYRA FIRST: If you’re going to see Kyra first, you’ll follow her to Thaletas’s camp and help them both with the Athenian attack. After that, you’ll have a little chat with both and there’s some kind of connection between you and Thaletas : your Aexios (or Kassandra) and him are going to stare at each other significantly and then… Kyra is going to be jealous/possessive ! For a scenario where you’re going to romance Thaletas, it makes much muuuch more sense than the other way of introduction (where Thaletas is jealous). Plus, the romance is more natural and doesn’t feel forced at all that way (love at first sight is so romantic !), in contrary of seeing Thaletas first.

So, after helping both of them, you’ll be able to chat.

I WAS SPARTAN: Since i think it is better to tell the truth on this one, choose that option. Thaletas is Spartan and obviously he’s patriotic, so, you’ll got points for that answer.

(lie) I’M NOT SPARTAN: I didn’t tried this option because it’s obviously the thing you don’t want to say. He’s Spartan, you’re Spartan, everyone is happy, yay.

Then, you’ll have a second choice to make.

EVERYONE DIES: Obviously, it’s not very nice from you to say to Thaletas “come on dude don’t cry you’re a pussy”, so don’t use this answer.

WAR AFFECTS US ALL: Thaletas has heart and he’s very sensitive behind his Spartan shield even if he don’t like to show it, so this is the best answer. When you choose this one, he’ll smile of agreement and he’ll turn around to stare you - your Alexios is going to stares at him too and then Kyra will do her little crisis of possessiveness - you’re on the right path if it happen : even herself can see the connection between Alexios and Thaletas ! The romance is more natural and doesn’t feel forced at all that way, as i said earlier.

Next, Thaletas will ask you if you want to join them now or later - your choice isn’t important at all. But in order to save time, you can follow them to the hideout right away. Fine, you’re in the hideout now ! You’ll have to make a strategic choice : this one is really important for the romance.

KYRA IS RIGHT: Choosing Kyra’s strategy will destroy your chances about the romantic relationship with Thaletas.

THALETAS IS RIGHT: Choosing Thaletas’s strategy is the right thing to do if you want to romance him. Plus, don’t worry, if you want to do Kyra’s quests, you’ll be able to do so : but later, and without destroying all the chances about the romantic relationship with our favorite Spartan bae.

Now, Thaletas is waiting for us. Let’s join his camp BUT DON’T SPEAK TO HIM YET. Why ? We have something more important to do… In order to make him a very special surprise !

For now, we’re going to find Thaletas’ tent. When it’s done, loot his letter on the table, inside the tent.

The letter says Thaletas loose the helmet of his grandfather. You know what to do now ! But maybe you’re asking why i’m telling you to find it before speaking to Thaletas, right ? Let me explain.

IF YOU LOOT THALETAS’ HELMET BEFORE SPEAKING TO HIM: Speaking with him when you have already found his helmet gives you another reaction than usual from him. You can choose to give it to him at the moment or lying to him by saying you’ll check out when you’ll can. Giving it now makes him look very surprised and very happy : his face and even his voiced line is different (ho and it’s funny because there’s a little bug btw : Thaletas keep his helmet in his hand until the end of the discussion. Kinda cute haha) ! It is, in my opinion, the best way to do his romance (since even ubisoft voice lined differently his reaction).

IF YOU LOOT THALETAS’ HELMET AFTER SPEAKING TO HIM: He seems less surprised and happy. It loose the “surprise surprise” side (and that’s so important to makes him more happy and surprise ! Just his reaction is “cuteness overload” !).

To find Thaletas’s helmet, you have to find the Ajax’s shipwreck. It’s on the north of Mykonos, above the fortress.

When you’ll find it, go back to the Spartan camp and speak to Thaletas (finally) !

♥ WHAT ORDERS WOULD YOU GIVE ME ? : Choosing this answer is the right thing to do and will lead you to another choice.

LET’S PLAN OUR NEXT MOVE: Don’t choose that of course !

Choosing the romance line, you’ll be able to pick between three answers:

I NEVER HOLD BACK: It’s a valid answer, but it’s not the best one to pick. Thaletas’ reaction is “i’m tempted, but…” and it’s saying he’s thinking only of sex.

SO YOU LIKE THINGS ROUGH: This is the best answer. When you pick this one, Thaletas says his heart is “beating faster”. It’s more romantic and not only about sex when you compare to the answer above (in my opinion).

HARD SHELL, SOFT CENTER: Don’t choose that. It ruins everything. I tried and he was not seduced at all. Thaletas, we need a fucking guide to romance you because of your complexity, ya know that love ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Then, our hard work to find Thaletas’s helmet will finally pay off ! He tells you his strategy and then ask you to find his granfather’s helmet. Two choices face you now:

I ALREADY HAVE YOUR HELMET: The best answer and the best way to give him his helmet. Why ? When you don’t find the helmet first, your Alexios says to Thaletas “I can’t promise you to find it” = you reject him. Here, when you find the helmet first, you can give it to him without saying “i can’t promise you to find it” : you already have it ! So he’s very, very happy and you don’t reject him in the same process : perfect !

(lie) WE’LL SEE: You want to pick this choice knowing the subject of this guide ? Are you evil ? >:(

Now you’ve flirted with Thaletas, it’s time to work again… Sadness !

When you destroy Athenian ships, be sure to do MORE THAN THALETAS ASKED FOR : To be sure you destroyed enough Athenian ships, be sure to see the line quest “the Athenian army has been weakened” ! If you didn’t destroyed enough ships yet, the line quest will show “destroy additional Athenian ships to help Spartan reinforcements” ! By weakening the Athenian army, you’ll got MORE ROMANCE POINTS WITH THALETAS !

Now, let’s talk to Thaletas again.

WE’RE NOT DONE YET: Formal and not cute at all. Don’t pick this one, Thaletas didn’t liked it when i tried this answer. :’(

YOU HAVE HEART: The choice’s tittle speak by himself. It’s this one you have to pick. You sneaky sneak compliments and have a little chit chat about Thaletas’ soldiers : he even approves you !

For this quest, you only have to follow Thaletas’s orders. Kill the three Athenian and then return to him.

♥ I’LL REMEMBER THAT: Obviously the answer you have to choose if you still want to romance him !

FORGET IT: DON’T CHOOSE IT >:(

After picking up the romance line, you’ll be able to choose three new one.

I WANT YOU TONIGHT: It’s valid, but still not the best answer to choose. Like another answer earlier, it’s based on the willing of sex only.

I WANT YOU FOREVER: This is the best answer. Following your will of romantic immersion and not the i-want-sex-with-everyone™ one, choose it ! He’ll smile and kiss you, then he’ll hesitate about what to say. Enjoy the end of the cinematic.

I WANT YOU AND KYRA: Well, since this guide is about Thaletas’ romance only… Again, don’t do that !

You have the love quest, finally ! It’s the best quest you have with Thaletas since it’s A FREAKIN’ DATE ! YAAAY ! (ﾉ´ヮ´)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

Go find him on the beach. When you realize he’s not here, you’ll have to follow the flower trail to find him (he’s so romantic, why he’s so perfect ???). By doing that, speak to him and enjoy the cinematic. Then, it’s choosing time.

♥ THE FLOWERS ARE A NICE TOUCH: OF COURSE IT’S A NICE TOUCH, ALEXIOS, HE DID A FLOWER TRAIL JUST FOR Y O U ! Choose this.

THE FLOWERS ARE A BIT MUCH: Are you kidding ? Get out of my guide !

Then, he’ll speak to you about your day of meeting during the Athenian VS Spartan fight on the beach.

♥ I COULDN’T RESIST YOU: WHO THE HELL CAN RESIST TO THALETAS GOD DAMN IT ? *koff koff* Choose this answer.

I COULDN’T RESIT A GOOD FIGHT: AAAARGH, I SAID GET OUT (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

After these two choices, he’ll take you to his favorite place (look at that cutie).

IT’S BEAUTIFUL: Obviously, don’t choose that.

♥ YOU’RE BEAUTIFUL: Of course you are, love ! Pick this answer.

Finally, Thaletas will ask you to fight him (I WAS JOKING WHEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT “BRUISED, BLOODY OR BROKEN” THING GASP). You don’t have to follow a specific way to win : reduce his health bar and then talk to him.

♥ I THOUGHT YOU’D NEVER ASK: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I’M NOT INTERESTED:, said no one.

Now you can enjoy the cinematic (as much as Thaletas enjoyed his time with Alexios ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)) and then you’ll have a final choice to make.

I WANT TO FORGET MY TROUBLED PAST: Obviously the best answer you can pick right now.

I WANT TO FORGET YOU: Ubisoft, you’re pure evil. Don’t choose that OF COURSE.

This quest will end with a beautiful kiss and an amazing sunset joining Alexios and Thaletas during their romantic moment.

Now that we have a romantic relationship with Thaletas, it’s time to protect your babe. Find Sokrates and speak with him : then, you’ll have to free a prisoner. By doing so, you’ll have a little discussion with this one and you’ll discover he’s crazy. But don’t let him take you by pity : if you let him live, Thaletas WILL DIE. The prisoner will put poison into Thaletas’s cup during the quest named “A Night To Remember”. You don’t have choice : kill him directly. By doing that, you’ll save Thaletas from dying.

Even if this quest is about Kyra, the final choice you’ll make during this one will influence the end of the quest named “A Night To Remember”.

Let’s do everything you need to do and then, when you find Kyra’s wooden doll, go speak to her in the hideout.

I SHOULD TELL YOU IN PRIVATE: By doing so, Thaletas will never finds out about Kyra’s secret. When Kyra kills herself and if you decide to tell him where Kyra is, he will blame the islands and its people (which makes no sense i think).

EVERYONE SHOULD HEAR THIS: If you choose this option (which i did and is, for me, the best one), Thaletas will know about Kyra’s secret. When she kills herself and if you decide to tell him where Kyra is, Thaletas will blame his father (which is, in fact, the true reason of her suicide + her mother’s death, so it’s very canon and makes more sense), saying if he wasn’t dead, he would have killed him himself.

Beyond that, there’s no real changes about the ending you can unlock.

As you might have noticed, i didn’t mentioned the other quests since they don’t change anything in the possible endings and since the guide is chronologically sorted. As long as you follow my instructions above FIRST, you can do the other quests as you like (Kyra’s quests will be automatically deleted if you romance Thaletas/or if you kill Pordakes first).

The big day is here ! Put your favorite clothes and be ready to assist to the most dramatic night of your life !

Let’s talk to Barnabas. You’ll chat with him and have the possibilities to choose what you think about Podarkes’ funeral ceremony. Your choice doesn’t affect the ending, so do whatever you want to do about it. Then, go find Thaletas first (trough it doesn’t change anything to choose Thaletas or Kyra first but it makes more sense to pick Thaletas as a priority since you can’t directly tells him about Kyra’s suicide if you see her first). He’ll propose you to come with him to Sparta, opening his heart to you.

I WISH I COULD: This is the best answer you can actually have. You’re saying to Thaletas how much you want to leave with him but you can’t, not right now : you have your family and so much more things to do first (”his destiny to accomplish” to be true to Alexios’ words). Thaletas will confess you something you can’t hear with the choices below : “When i first came to these islands, i was expecting nothing but death… Then i found you. Who knows, maybe the fates will bring us back together one day ?”. So, yes, this is the best choice to make. Look at all the love Thaletas have for Alexios (ﾉ´ヮ´)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

OR… YOU JOIN MY CREW: This answer is A TRAP. You can’t recruit Thaletas (nor Kyra) : and the worst of all is when you pick this answer, Alexios act like an asshole with Thaletas. Thaletas is hurt and leave, as cold as ice.

Never going to happen: Really, don’t pick that. I never felt so bad to pick a choice in my whole life in a game. Thaletas broke my heart with this horrible choice. He says he was excepting nothing but death when he came to these islands, and then… You came and broke his heart, he “never think he could felt so much pain”.

Wait until the end of the cinematic (and try not to cry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ to be honest i was disgusted by the impossibility to have Thaletas by my side, i wanted both of my bois sailing trough the Ancient Greece, gayer than ever, happy an’ all (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ AT LEAST, A MEETING WHEN YOU GOES TO SPARTA, SHIT !), then go see Kyra.

She will talk to you about how bad she feels about her father (who was a perfect asshole). Then, here comes the time to choose what to say.

THIS PART OF THE GUIDE IS IMPORTANT : You’ll know which answer will leads Kyra to her suicide (or not) and so which answer will leads you to the good and best ending (even if it’s sad to see her die, but canonically, as Ubisoft said, “you can’t break a couple without consequences”).

HE’S DEAD, MOVE ON: By saying that, Kyra will yell at you “You killed my father !” (urgh i hate this character, even if she knew about him, she wanted him dead and now she blames you ? wtf). Picking that answer will lead you to the last choice where she can possibly kill herself. I did picked that answer.

I FELT THE SAME WAY ONCE: If you choose this answer, you’ll be nice to her and she will yell as much as above. Picking that answer will lead you to the last choice where she can possibly kill herself.

FIND A NEW PURPOSE: If you want to save Kyra, pick this one. She’ll return at the party safe and sound.

If you choose the answer where she lives, then you can skip the rest of the guide and return at the begining of it where all the endings are listed to see what to do next. If you started the path of Kyra’s suicide, then you’ll have one last choice to make.

FORGET THE GODS: Last chance to save Kyra ! If you want to save Kyra, pick this one. She’ll return at the party safe and sound.

THEN OFFER A SACRIFICE: It would be stupid to think by saying that Kyra will be okay. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ She will took her life if you pick this one.

YOU ARE UNGRATEFUL: I picked this one. By choosing that, Alexios will say the truth : she’s yelling at everyone and in particular the gods (AND Alexios after everything he did for her !) and don’t see how much people trusted her : even Alexios risked his like (he’s actually saying all of this, even the part where he risked his life for her) for her and she doesn’t care at all. If you choose this answer, Kyra will took her life.

After the tragedy of Kyra’s death, you can go back to the party in order to see Thaletas one last time. When you’ll speak with him, you’ll be able to make two last choices.

Thaletas will speak about the end of the war and his new military rank : (a.k.a his promotion) to general : he has been called back to Sparta. He’ll say you deserved it much more than him.

I DO DESERVE IT: Mmmmhwell, Alexios, how about shut the fuck up ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Don’t choose that if you want to be nice to Thaletas. I don’t know what it does if you choose that but it’s obviously not the happiest option you have right now.

YOU DESERVE TO BE GENERAL: The right thing to answer. Thaletas will tell you “too true !”.

After that, Thaletas will say “Even if we can’t be together, i will sail to Sparta with you in my heart”, leading your Alexios to the saddest smile in the world (but the smile at the beach was as sad as this one i have to admit). Finally, he’ll ask you were’s Kyra (because he needs to speak to her before leaving).

CAUTION : Here’s the choice who makes the difference between the “good but sad ending” and the “best ending”.

(lie) KYRA WILL BE HERE… LATER: Okay, i know, it’s not cool to lie. Telling the truth is better, but this option will leads you to the happiest ending (and this is the one i choose everytime) : Alexios will tell to Thaletas that Kyra will come later and will lie : he will say “She said to celebrate without her”. Thaletas will answer “Celebrate without her ? Hah ! Impossible !” and then… He’ll add “But let’s try !” and you’ll share a drink “to victory”, sharing your last moment together in an happy and peaceful way.

KYRA’S DEAD: Telling the truth is always the best thing to do, and if you choose to do so, you’ll unlock the “good but sad” ending : Thaletas will scream [his reaction will change depending on what you choose to do during “M for Murder” [choosing to say to everyone about Kyra’s father or choosing to say privately to Kyra that Podarkes is her father]]. Then he’ll reject you, saying he wants to drink alone. Sad end for a sad night : Kyra’s dead, Thaletas won’t speak to you before leaving… It’s not that good after all, isn’t it ?

Finish your last conversation with Thaletas and you’ll be able to make a speech when you’ll go find Barnabas again. Whatever you’ll choose to say at this point, it doesn’t chance anything : you already had your ending. GOOD TO KNOW: If you let the anarchist prisoner live during the quest named “The Sokratic Method”, Thaletas will die right at this moment - during the toast in the honor of Alexios. You’ll have to run after the killer and then you can choose between killing him or setting him free.

And here we are at the end of this romance guide ! I hope you’ll find everything you needed here, and if you have any question, feel free ton contact me as i said it at the beginning of this post ! Again, sorry for my english, it’s not my native language. As you can see, the Thaletas’ romance is really sad. You can’t take him with you, you don’t have any romance option to leave with him or see him when you’ll go to Spartan (come on Ubisoft… just one little tiny quest ?) and it’s tragic to see Kyra’s suicide in order to have the “best” ending you can have. As you may know if you follow me since the beginning of my Thalexios content, i’m an arist and I WILL DRAW A COMIC about what i imagined for a continuation of this romance. In this comic, my Alexios saw Kyra’s suicide and lied to Thaletas. They’ll meet again in Sparta and, well… I let you imagine what could happen next ! So, don’t hesitate to follow me to have more Thalexios content (gif, screenshot, art and much more) ! OH, AND don’t forget to like and share/reblog this guide if i was helpful !

Thank you all, and have a good time playing Assassin’s Creed Odyssey !

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metalspartan01 · 2 years ago

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Goth 101

🦇 tl;dr version for those who prefer that format

Goth is a music-based subculture that started out in the UK in the late 70s/early 80s and spread internationally from there. It spawned from the UK Punk scene, keeping the DIY ethics but turning the music more melancholic, introspective and experimental.

The music genres that the subculture was built around are (dark) Post-Punk, Gothic Rock, Darkwave, Ethereal Wave and a few other smaller subgenres.

While the fashion and other non-musical aesthetics are very prominent and beloved by goths, they're non-essential to the subculture. What defines a goth is the music we listen to.

Our "big 4" bands are The Cure, Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus and the Banshees. However, 3 out of 4 of those bands are Post-Punk acts (Sisters of Mercy being the exception Gothic Rock band), and while very influential to the rest of the goth music scene, they by no means are the end-all, be-all of what goth music sounds like. The genre has evolved through its over 40 years of existence, creating diverse sounds. Anyone darkly inclined can find something to love, even if it takes a bit of research.

The Dark & Gothic playlist on Spotify is a pretty decent way to get started into goth music. In my old blog I had entire tags dedicated to goth music as a whole, and separately to Post-Punk, Gothic Rock, Darkwave and Ethereal Wave too. I had a few playlists based on popular goth aesthetics here.

The longer description of goth music will include playlists for each bigger goth subgenre, but please keep in mind they're made by me in a way that appeals to my personal tastes for each subgenre. I don't know every band that exists and my personal taste is biased towards the 90s.

Now, to a more detailed introduction to the goth subculture...

🦇 Dark alternative vs Goth

What a lot of people need clarified is that the goth subculture doesn't have a monopoly on the dark alternative world, nor are we the home for everyone sad, spooky and weird who doesn't fit in and might listen to any sort of sad, spooky or weird alternative music.

There are SO many dark alternative music scenes that have nothing or very little to do with the goth subculture. We've influenced a lot of them fashion-wise, but just because they copied us we look alike doesn't mean we're interchangeable.

There's no scale that goes from Prep to Goth and measures how Valid™ your inner darkness is, in which if you're anything below goth then you're a poser and lame. It's perfectly fine and cool to be dark alternative without being a goth. Goth isn't a badge of legitimacy or honor, it's just one specific flavor of dark alternative among so many.

Goth is a very small and obscure subculture despite our superficial hypervisbility (our looks and infamy are hypervisible, what we're actually about is extremely buried underground), and most dark alternative people aren't goths.

🦇 What does it take to be a goth?

There's one rule, and one rule only: LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. You wouldn't call yourself a metalhead without being a fan of Metal music, would you? The same principle applies to goth.

There are many types of alternative subcultures; some examples are fashion-based subcultures, another are lifestyle-based subcultures. A third type of subculture that's very prominent (especially in the West) are music-based subcultures.

Goth is a music-based subculture, just like the metalhead, punk, emo, rivethead/Industrial, hip-hop, rave, K-Pop and grunge subcultures are.

This means that, while the music isn't THE ONLY aspect the subculture has, in order to be a goth you have to listen to goth music, and we have a specific set of music genres that our subculture was built around, so not just anything dark and melancholy will do, as we don't have a monopoly on that, but we do have something closer to a monopoly on a specific sound and musical legacy.

You don't have to listen to goth music EXCLUSIVELY to be a goth, that'd be insane. You don't even have to limit yourself to dark alternative music either. You just have to listen to goth music to a relevant degree and be passionate about it and you're in, the rest is up to you.

This means too that the way you dress has no impact on your validity as a goth, whether you don't have the gothic wardrobe of your dreams yet or you just don't want to dress goth at all. I'm TikTok mutuals with a girl who dresses exclusively in pink-white sweet lolita coords, but who's passionate about goth music. She's a goth, no questions about it. On the other hand, a lot of the influencers you'll see online who look like a lost Addams cousin aren't goths at all, and no house decor or outfit will make them gothier if they don't listen to the music.

🦇 What music counts as goth?

From the previous points I made you probably gathered that Industrial and Metal ⁠– both genres that outsiders usually associate with the goth subculture ⁠– aren't actually part of the goth genre. So, what is goth music?

Goth music developed initially in the UK in the late 70s/early 80s off of dark Post-Punk. Post-Punk itself developed from UK 70s Punk Rock, being also influenced by Glam Rock, experimental electronic music, and many other influences more specific to each band that took part in this musical development (Bauhaus were very influenced by Reggae!).

What characterizes the goth sound are elements such as; being bass-driven rather than guitar-driven (in almost every case), guitars playing more of a decorative or atmospheric role instead of being the main focus (which contrasts starkly against genres such as Metal), preference for voices with a lower vocal range (altos, this is your genre to shine in!), optional use of synthesizers, recurrent replacing of human drummers with drum machines, and common use of lots of reverb and delay effects everywhere for an extra sensation that you're listening to music recorded in a catacomb.

Dark Post-Punk was the starting point of the goth subculture, and from it, all other goth music subgenres developed. Depending on who you ask there's a billion goth micro-genres. In my opinion a lot of those subgenres are rather meaningless (a lot of them are just specific flavors of Post-Punk or Darkwave) but the main 4 subgenres of goth music are:

(Dark) Post-Punk

Gothic Rock

Darkwave

Ethereal Wave

POST-PUNK:

Post-Punk took the standard sound of Punk Rock and its DIY ethics and made the sound more melancholic, romantic, experimental, less angry, and more introspective. Dark Post-Punk in particular was influenced by gothic literature and old horror movies (including their soundtracks, the Banshees created their characteristic guitar sound after the violins in the Psycho soundtrack).

Besides the 3 Post-Punk bands I listed as part of the goth "big 4", there's bands such as Skeletal Family, Twin Tribes, Specimen, She Wants Revenge, Sex Gang Children, Xmal Deutschland, Lebanon Hanover, Cruex Lies, The Secret French Postcards and The Birthday Party.

GOTHIC ROCK:

When goth became slightly more established in sound, Gothic Rock is what happened. Less experimental than Post-Punk, a bit more Rock-based, more decidedly dark and miserable than Post-Punk necessarily is, and finally severed from goth's punk roots. Sisters of Mercy is THE most popular and influential Gothic Rock band; they popularized the use of extremely low baritone vocals and drum machines. Despite existing since the 80s, its popularity peak was in the 90s.

Goth as a whole has its "big 4", but the subgenre of Gothic Rock has its own "big 3", which are Sisters of Mercy, The Mission (UK), and Fields of the Nephilim. Other Gothic Rock bands are Rosetta Stone, Corpus Delicti, Inkubus Sukkubus, Mephisto Walz, Angels of Liberty, Two Witches, Nosferatu, Wisborg and Soror Dolorosa.

DARKWAVE:

Goth going electronic! There's basically two types of Darkwave; the one that's more a combination of Post-Punk + Synthpop (very popular in the past decade), and the one that's more a combination of Gothic Rock + electronic music in general (most popular in the 90s). EXTREMELY danceable, but then again goths can dance to literally anything. This genre has existed at the very least since the second half of the 80s and has never stopped being relevant in the goth scene, save maybe during the Deathrock revival phase.

Clan of Xymox might be the single most influential Darkwave band. There's also The Frozen Autumn, The Crüxshadows, Switchblade Symphony, Collide, Dark, Ghosting, London After Midnight, She Past Away, Drab Majesty and Boy Harsher.

ETHEREAL WAVE:

This genre is heavily linked to Dream Pop, Neoclassical Darkwave and Shoegaze. Like with Darkwave there's basically a few styles of Ethereal Wave, I can pinpoint three; the one that's like, regular Goth Rock/Post-Punk but with a lot of extra delay and reverb and other stylistic choices that make it sound, well, Ethereal, dream-like. There's the type that has lots of Folk influences (be it Medieval/Rennaisance-ish type of Folk or "ethnic" type of Folk), and there's one that's synth-based but, unlike Darkwave, sounds like what ketamine must feel like. This genre has existed since the mid 80s but its peak in popularity and relevancy in the scene was in the 90s.

Dead Can Dance is THE most influential Ethereal Wave band, but there's others such as Cocteau Twins (started as Post-Punk, ended up as Dream Pop and Ethereal Wave), Miranda Sex Garden, Faith and the Muse, Lycia, Claire Voyant, Hamsas XIII, Love is Colder than Death, SRSQ, Black Tape for a Blue Girl and Mors Syphilitica.

What about Deathrock, Gothic Metal and Industrial?

Deathrock is goth's American twin, basically. While in the early 80s in the UK morose ex-punks were playing Post-Punk, in the early 80s in the LA Punk scene morbid and brooding punk kids were playing Deathrock; it's closer to Punk Rock in sound than Post-Punk, being more about being spooky and brooding than about being eerie and romantic. Goth is to vampires and witches what Deathrock is to zombies and werewolves.

To summarize the consensus on Deathrock and its place within the goth subculture; it's rare to find a goth who's not also into at least some Deathrock, and even rarer to find a deathrocker who's not into goth. Personally, I think Deathrock is its own separate though very similar thing, but I don't mind Deathrock being lumped in with goth music.

I made a whole TikTok video on why Gothic Metal isn't a goth subgenre, but in summary; Gothic Metal is a Metal subgenre that was somewhat influenced by goth music in its earliest stage of development, but is for the most part a cross between Doom Metal and Death Metal with lyrics inspired by gothic literature. By adhering to a Metal sound it doesn't fit the type of sound goth music has. The goth influences in Gothic Metal were mostly only present in the earliest bands and a majority of the newer acts are completely disconnected from the goth scene.

As for goth's ties to the rivethead subculture (and thus, Industrial music): We've been sibling subcultures since at least the early 90s. Both very, very small and underground scenes that despite being different, had enough similarities in music, idiosyncrasy and aesthetic sensibilities to comfortably band together for the sake of scene viability. That's why you might hear people talking about the "gothic-industrial scene".

Keep in mind too that 80s and 90s Industrial music sounded very different from how it does now (compare your average Grendel or Combichrist song to your average Skinny Puppy or Die Form song). There was a lot less influence of raver music in the rivethead scene back then, and a lot more influence from 80s dark alternative music and New Wave, which are key influences for the goth scene as well.

As told by goth YouTuber Angela Benedict (goth since 1995), every goth back then listened to at least some Industrial, every rivethead listened to at least some goth music, and they all loved 80s New Wave, so DJs at shared club nights had a very easy time entertaining both audiences simultaneously.

🦇 Trivia & other things to know

The term "gothic Rock" was being used in music journalism as early as to describe releases by The Doors and The Velvet Underground, but the word "gothic" there wasn't so much used to point to a specific type of sound at that stage, it was used to imply the mood of the music and that's not where the subculture gets its name.

We don't know for sure why this subculture began to be referred to as "goth", initially the music was called either New Wave (just a darker and more underground variety of it) or Positive Punk. However, one of the potential roots of this name for our subculture is that it comes from an inside joke from members of Southern Death Cult/The Cult about Andi Sexgang (Sex Gang Children) about how he was a creepy little guy obsessed with the macabre and dark romanticism living at the Visigoth Towers, so they called him a "goth goblin" and if he was a goth, then his fans were goths too.

From the comments that the goth bloggers/vloggers I follow get, apparently it's common for baby bats and people interested in the subculture to think that they HAVE to find a goth "type" to lock themselves into, like "trad goth" or "romantic goth" or whatever else, and if they don't, they're a poser. This isn't true at all. Most goths wax and wane between fashion styles and goth music subgenres. These terms are far more useful to describe aesthetics rather than people or music.

If you ever hear people talk about "1st/2nd/3rd wave goth/Gothic Rock"; that's an (in my opinion) outdated and not too functional terminology to differentiate between "eras" of goth music, 1st wave being between 1975-1985, 2nd between 1985-1995, and 3rd between 1995-? That terminology was used widely when I was a baby bat but not so much anymore.

"Baby bat" is what a lot of more established goths call newbies! It's NOT meant as an insult nor to be condescending. It's a loving cutesy term and while of course most baby bats are very young, it's perfectly plausible to be a very grown adult and a baby bat if they just got into goth instead of getting into the subculture as a teen.

Most goth bands are easily found on Spotify except for more underground ones that haven't been active for a while (I have so many beloved bands and songs that just don't exist on Spotify), but the real goth jackpot is at Bandcamp.

Facebook is still useful for one (1) thing and it's for finding goth events; that's where I've found out about gothic fairs, goth nights and gigs; from the largely popular ones in my local scene to the very underground ones.

The song most of the subculture agrees is THE first official goth song is Bela Lugosi's Dead by Bauhaus, which was recorded as a singular take. It was the first track the band recorded together, too.

The Batcave is infamous nowadays as a huge goth night club in Soho (London) during the early 80s, owned by the band Specimen, BUT as told by the very people who used to frequent the nightclub, the whole thing has been a little overblown and its current reputation is more legend than fact. YouTuber Gothcast has a great video on the subject that was praised by members of Specimen itself!

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Most of the most iconic pioneer goth musicians HATE being referred to as goths or to have their music referred to as such. When the term "goth" was first starting to be used to describe our music and scene it was a pejorative used by outsiders and/or mostly associated with the campier and more "low brow" bands (Specimen and Alien Sex Fiend come to mind). Andrew Eldritch from Sisters of Mercy especially hates it, to the point he refuses to even say the word and refers to it as "the G word". Which is hilarious since he sounded the most stereotypically gothy out of the big 4 and looked like this at the time he started to be a piss baby about it:

Goth isn't really a "youth" subculture anymore if you ask people within the scene. Unlike people from many other subcultures, goths have a tendency to stay goth far into adulthood (even if covertly). When you go to any events, besides teens and people in their early 20s, you're gonna see plenty of goths in their 40s and older, a few of them will bring their kids along if the event is family friendly.

Besides the obvious chance of many goths being professional creatives (musicians, writers, artists, etc), for some reason A LOT of goths work in tech and healthcare!

Metalheads headbang, they and punks also mosh. What do goths do to vibe to our music together? We dance! We don't dance the same as non-goths but we LOVE to dance to our music, together or solo. There's no established dance styles to adhere to; it's just letting your body flow to the music. Some goth dancing is very intricate, some of it is very simple, it depends on the goth in question. Just in case, this is NOT like the dance gifs of cybergoths/rivetheads under that damned bridge. Think less that and more Wednesday Addams dancing to The Cramps, or the girl from the Night of the Demons movie. Here's some videos about how goths dance:

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We fucking love 80s New Wave. No, Depeche Mode isn't a goth band; yes, you'll have to dig deep to find a goth who doesn't ADORE them. The only one I've come across who disliked Depeche Mode liked Soft Cell instead.

Goth IS international! Not just in the sense that there's fans of goth music basically everywhere, but that there's local goth scenes with their own local goth bands everywhere. Outside of the US + Europe + Canada, there's huge goth scenes all over Latin América (our Deathrock and Post-Punk are at times even popular among 1st world goths), and there's also smaller but still present goth scenes in Africa, Asia and Oceania. She Past Away is very much one of THE most popular goth bands in recent years and they're from Turkey.

The goth scene has always been in friendly terms with the LGBT community. Not only are many of our biggest icons LGBT themselves (the whole band Specimen, AVC from Sopor Aeternus, both members of Diavol Strâin, the vocalist from Male Tears, Cinnamon Hadley, and many more) but plenty of cishet goths (especially the men) embrace gender non-conformity and/or androgyny. In most local scenes, goth club nights are held at gay bars/nightclubs, as they don't tend to have privately owned venues. And either way, at any goth night there'll be tons of gay and gender non-conforming goths no matter where they're held. To varying degrees depending on the locality of the scene, gay and bi people are completely normalized in the goth subculture, and gender non-conformity and androgyny aren't just encouraged, but praised and coveted.

There's goths of any religion you can think of, but Neo Pagans are somewhat over-represented in our community compared to the rest of larger society (for better or worse). Funnily enough, very few goths are actually Satanists of any sort. I'd say the numbers go more or less similar to our local non-goth peers. In the West and westernized countries I'd say it goes; majority culturally-Christian atheist or agnostic goths (usually not militant about it), a few practicing Christians of whichever denomination (usually whichever is dominant in the country they inhabit), the rare but entirely plausible Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist goth, and a bunch of Neo-Pagans. Probably one (1) or two (2) actual Satanist goths per state/province/etc, tops.

World Goth Day is celebrated every year on May 22nd.

"Mallgoth" isn't a type of goth in either a musical or fashion sense. I made another TikTok about it, but in summary; it was originally hurled as an insult towards a very specific type of poser; the American kids in the late 90s and early 00s who imitated how goths dressed and called themselves goths while only listening to Nu Metal and maybe the most mainstream Industrial Metal. They tended to congregate at malls and behave particularly obnoxious to everyone there, further ruining our already delicate image (especially at that time).

Cybergoths aren't really goths either. Their music scene is centered around EBM, which is basically slightly darker and slightly more aggressive raver music that may or may not have Industrial influences. And to be honest they behaved like a rapacious invasive species in goth club nights to the point that they almost decimated the actual goth scene and it took us a while to recover from that.

Goths are sometimes perceived as too self-serious but honestly? We love making fun of ourselves and we tend to have a very silly or dry sense of humor. We're just tired of the same cheap and inaccurate jokes made by people who don't know anything about us. The best jokes about goths will often come from goths ourselves; you can only properly make fun of something you understand well! The few times outsiders get it right though? (Sad to confirm that the South Park goth kids are hilarious and I wish they were in a better show) You'll see goths sharing the SHIT out of it, such as me being obsessed with the goths from Ridonculous Race, or the clip below:

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