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mikewheelzie · 3 years ago

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Hi! Just read your post on your thoughts about Byler passing Destiel on Tumblr. I saw that you're Anti-Byler and ship Mileven (Which is totally fine) But I just had a few questions! I'm a Byler but not because I just pick an MLM ship and call it a day, but because from what I've seen from the decisions the Duffer Bros made I don't really know how it'd end without Byler endgame, since it'd be kind of fucked up.

First of all, I think acknowledging that Will is canonically gay is important. None of the other popular MLM ships like Steddie, Destiel, Klance, Johnlock, etc have that (If I'm not mistaken) I really do think that is a huge and important factor to consider!

Not to mention the unresolved plot with the painting and Will indirectly sharing his feelings with Mike. I think if the Duffer Bros wanted Mike to reject Will's feelings, it really makes no sense to drag it out until the next season. In fact, it seems almost cruel and mean and imo is just a shitty way to treat a canon LGBTQ+ character's feelings towards someone of the same sex.

I think had they chosen to let Will share his feelings honestly and be rejected it would be received well. Yeah, it would suck and rejections suck, but it'd leave the next season for them to become close as friends again. Them choosing to make Will hide his feelings from Mike to just further a straight relationship, and then him getting rejected in the very last season is just kinda iffy to me. That isn't even to say Mileven is something I dislike, it's just a shitty way to treat an LGBTQ+ character if you don't have plans on them getting together with the person they're in love with. I think it's honestly valid for people to be upset by that (should they send hate or anything??? absolutely not and I really hope that doesn't happen) and call that out. Queer characters shouldn't be used to further another relationships arc.

So yeah I guess my main question is how do you see them handling the painting plot in the show? Or Will's feelings in general? I'm curious because I haven't asked anyone who was anti-Byler this, and I'm open to dialogue! :) Do you think there is a way for the Duffer's to write it that doesn't use Will's feelings as a device for another relationship?

Also I just wanted to ask in general what you thought about the aftermath of Mike's monologue. Like I said earlier, I've only been a Byler shipper since post S4, and part of it was because of how I just felt like Mileven was just not something that made either Mike or El happy. That's not to say the two don't love each other. I really think they do and that they'll ALWAYS be someone special to one another, however S4 really had me questioning if that was romantic or platonic. I think them not showing El and Mike reuniting after she escaped the mind-fight was odd, and how we didn't get a heart to heart scene at the end of the season. I'd say it's bad writing, but I really don't think Stranger Things is a badly written show. I adore that show and so when I felt like it was the ONLY thing badly written, it made me want to investigate further.

To me, I kinda started viewing them a lot like Steve and Nancy. They had a relationship, and there were cute moments they had with each other. I think they're both great people, but if I've learned anything in life it's that two people can be the most amazing people, but that doesn't mean they're meant to be. Even if Byler becomes endgame I wouldn't solidly swear they were soulmates or meant for each other. I also sometimes see two amazing people but in their relationship they don't bring that out of each other. In S1 I didn't mind Stancy at all, even though Steve was kind of not it, but I think the show was clearly laying out that her and Jonathan just connect on a deeper level. I feel like in S4 I was catching those moments between Byler too. Now, in S4 we also saw Nancy and Steve working together again. I think a lot of the moments were cringy (on Steve's end) but I think it was also to show that they could still be friends after that, and still have a genuine care for each other despite their history.

I don't think a Byler endgame would completely shit on the history of Mileven, because Mike and El will always have a close bond, a bond that's different from Mike and Will. To me, she also didn't look happy in her relationship towards the end of S4. I truly just want what's best for that girl because she deserves the absolute world. She deserves to FEEL love, not just be told it. After everything she's been through, the lack of compassion and empathy by being raised in a lab, she shouldn't have to be confused on if her partner loves her, or feels the same. Trust me when I say that shit can destroy you. The way Mike acted when she brought it up as well was just not it. I understand though that he's 14/15, and it's his first relationship, but it's also El's and at the end of the season to me it looked like she just checked out of that relationship.

I think El's feelings are so so so important to consider, and in general do their love styles mesh well? I think they both were trying to have an ideal and perfect relationship, they both hid things from each other (El hiding all the troubles she has, Mike not talking to her about his nerdy interests or 'childish' things he enjoys). To grow well together, you shouldn't rush to grow up, or act like you're okay when you're not. Part of loving someone is loving the good moments and the bad. I wish I saw that more in them, I wish the Duffers showed more of that if they want them as endgame. To me, there just isn't any Mileven heart to hearts that I can point out. They genuinely don't show these moments and I really think that's a shame.

I really wanted to put my heart into loving Mileven, but at the end of the day I just couldn't, and most of that is for El's sake. And when I considered how Byler was framed in this very same season, I kind of just connected the dots, especially with the whole overarching theme of S4 being about lies (with almost every character in the show). Again I understand why people do like Mileven, it's just they really resonated with early Stancy to me, as well as situations I had in the past, and what I've seen in other shows. Her major arc with Mike this season was not feeling loved by him, and when he finally says it she ignores him??? I guess I just don't get why the Duffers would do that if she felt happy with her relationship and if they want Mileven as an endgame. I'd love to hear your opinions on that! Sorry if this was too long I tend to ramble, and I love just having open discussions about this with people who have diff viewpoints :)

Honestly, I don't like engaging in shipping discourse because I know it's largely futile and can get really ugly, but I'll bite this time. Here's my opinion on the matter: Byler isn't going to be endgame. I do ship Mileven, but even if I didn't, that would still be a fact obvious to anyone who hasn't set out to intentionally misrepresent the entire show. Let me be clear, I don't have any problem with fanon Byler, but I do have a major problem with the people who insist that it's going to be canon despite all evidence otherwise, parrot problematic ideas as "proof," and harass real life people over a fictional ship. That was the behavior that I was criticizing in my post that you referenced. However, since you asked, I'm going to discuss all of the exact reasons why I dislike Byler and all of its supporters' arguments.

To begin, I do acknowledge that Will being canonically gay makes Byler different. In my experience. the Byler fandom doesn't have the same fetishization and sexualization problem that plagues many other non-canon ships, which I appreciate. (Also my post may have made it seem like I was specifically calling out gay ships even though that was not my intention. We've seen the same behavior I was worried about with het ships. Think Zutara, for example). I also acknowledge that one-sided Byler is canon, and I think that anyone who didn't pick up on that needs a lesson in media literacy. However, I don't think that the comparison to Steddie or Destiel that I made is unfair because the extreme shippers exhibit the same dubious media analysis methods that characterize the metas of many popular non-canon ships. I'm going to list three things that they commonly do that I think is poor critical analysis (this is not exhaustive list by any means):

First, finding "parallels" between characters. These shippers often claim that similarities between canon couples and their ship is evidence that their ship is canon. There are a couple problems with this. First, it just draws attention to how the creators intentionally frame romantic couples, which generally disproves the point that the shippers want to make, and second, often these parallels involve oversimplification of the events happening. One in the Byler fandom is claiming that the Steve/Nancy/Jonathan love triangle "parallels" El/Mike/Will so Mike and El will break up and Mike will end up with Will. This take ignores how their situations and characters are entirely different. Jonathan and Steve in s1 were intentional foils of each other which meant that Nancy's choice between them was also an ideological one. There has been no such set up for Mileven vs. Byler so far in canon. Also, Stancy and Mileven got together for very different reasons which again doesn't support the fact that they're supposed to narratively parallel each other. Some people claim that the "you don't love me fights" are a parallel, and they may be partially right, but it was more to demonstrate that the Wheeler siblings both have problems sharing their feelings, and Mike shows initiative to work out the disagreement while Nancy just gets defensive, so it reads more to me as saying "they have a similar problem but dealt with it differently," which only supports Mileven more in my opinion.

Another one is the most frustrating thing I've ever heard a Byler shipper say which is the Dr. Brenner and Mike "parallels" that Byler shippers use to claim that Mileven is "toxic." Yes, they both mention flying, that is a "parallel," but claiming that means they are similar requires a gross disregard for the entire context of their statements. Dr. Brenner tells El that she can't go save her friends because she'll "need to fly." During the monologue, Mike tells her that she "can fly." They're saying the opposite thing! The point is that Dr. Brenner breaks her down while Mike brings her up! It is intended to show that Dr. Brenner and Mike are different! Claiming that "parallel" is evidence for why Mileven should break up requires egregious misinterpretation of the show and its core themes.

Secondly, there is the use of nonexistent symbolism to prove a ship. It's very prevalent, think of the many "red and blue" couples across tumblr. Byler has its own version with the "blue and yellow" symbolism where people claim that Byler is supported by the fact that Mike wore blue and Will wore yellow in s4. That just isn't actually a thing, I'm sorry. ST has never before used color to indicate romantic feelings and certainly has never shown the blue and yellow combination to be of any significance, aside from the mention of "blue meets yellow" in the Russian code in s3. And even for that there is no reason to believe that it has any sort of shipping significance, especially when its meaning has already been given in the show, and it had nothing to do with shipping. In fact, the one time when color is called is out is a Mileven scene where Mike says that El's favorite colors are yellow and purple while wearing yellow and purple.

Third is using ambiguous or subjective things such as facial expressions to prove their point. I've seen countless screenshots of Mike looking at Will accompanied by "people don't look at their friends like that." When they do??? In Western society it's generally considered polite to look at people when they're talking so it isn't necessarily romantic to look at someone for a long time when they're having a conversation. And the thing is that ST shows how people look at each other when they're in love with someone. Will does it! They very clearly show him "gazing" and linger on it. If Mike's looks were meant to be indicative of the same feelings they would have been given the same cinematic treatment.

Those are just three things that makes me think that Bylers don't have much ground to stand on as far as their predictions go. There are countless other metas that use the same dubious interpretation techniques in an attempt to prove their ship, even though the actual text makes it clear that it isn't going to be canon.

ST is just not a show that's subtle with its romance. For example, Jancy in s1 had moments where they discussed love and flirted with each other. Mike and Will have just never had those. They don't gaze into each other's eyes or talk about romance unless it's Mike talking about El. Will and Mike have just never been framed in the same way that romantic couple on the show are, and their relationship has never been indicated to be beyond friendship. Mike doesn't treat Will any differently from how he treats Lucas or Dustin, so I'm not convinced that he has romantic feelings for Will.

As for my predictions for how Will's storyline will continue, I personally think that the painting plotline is over, at least in regards to Will's crush on Mike. Maybe it'll be referenced, but it'll probably have to do more with the symbolic D&D team aspect than the hidden confession thing. When it comes to the painting scene, I think that some Byler shippers don't understand that, despite being the object of Will's affections, Mike actually doesn't matter that here because it's ultimately about Will dealing with his feelings and working to accept himself. The point of the painting scene was to clue Jonathan in on what was happening. Jonathan was then the one to comfort Will in the next episode. Ultimately, Mike has surprisingly little to do with Will's sexuality arc despite being the one he's in love with. This is just me, but I think that a purely ship-centric reading of the events really devalues it.

At this point in canon, Will is not in a place to share his feelings yet-- that's the whole point of it. He needed to talk to his brother and be reassured that there was nothing wrong with him. I've read tons of Byler meta on how Mike supposedly has internalized homophobia, but shockingly few people address how in actual canon Will is the one struggling with it. He's keeping his feelings secret because he's scared. Will has been bullied for being gay since before he even knew what that meant! His father called him slurs when he was a young child! Viewers also have to understand that ST is set in the '80s, a time where being gay was much less commonly accepted, not to mention that Hawkins is a conservative small town. People need to take into account the immense amounts of homophobia that Will has faced for his entire life before they complain that he hadn't yet vocalized his sexuality in s4. Will has so much trauma relating to his sexuality, it's understandable that he's not going to come out yet. I personally think that people claiming that Will's s4 plotline was "problematic" really missed the core message of it. It's really strange that Jonathan can tell Will that there's nothing wrong with him and that he will be loved no matter what, and people acted like that was a loss!

I'm not exactly sure what the writers are going to do with Will's plotline. I'm pretty certain that he's going to come out, even if it's just to Jonathan and Joyce, but I honestly don't think that Mike will have much more to do with it than Will's other friends. Remember: Mike isn't actually all that important in this story line! It isn't about him, it's about Will's journey to self-acceptance. Will will move on and be perfectly fine.

As an aside, I think that the whole "using a queer character to further a straight relationship" angle is a really unfair one. It completely misrepresents what actually happened in the show. It's not like Will being gay was the catalyst that made Mileven get together-- they did that on their own before Will's sexuality was even a major part of the plot. What actually happened in canon was that Will comforted his friends who was having relationship insecurities. Like Mike is not just the guy that Will is in love with, he's Will's best friend, and Will considers El to be his sister. He'd have helped them regardless of his feelings for Mike because he cares about them. I just think that it's a bit disingenuous to imply that having Will be a good friend was "using a gay character to further a straight ship." Lucas helped Mike and El resolve their conflict in s3 and no one said anything negative about that. That whole framing just reeks of willful misinterpretation of the actual events of the show in an attempt to cement Byler as the ship with the moral high ground. I'm sorry, but I refuse to call someone homophobic for simply giving us a realistic, if brutally honest, coming-out plotline for a character living in a conservative town in the 1980s. So yeah, my response to the "without using Will's feelings as a device" question is that they'll just keep doing what they've been doing because they've literally never done that.

As for why I think Mileven will be endgame, it's that they have shown a consistent desire to stay together. They have had conflict, but they always show that they want to work things out. Their romantic relationship has been built up since s1, and it'd make no sense to backtrack on that in the last season, especially after ending s4 with a big love confession. All of the marketing surrounding Mike and El has stated that they're a romantic couple, and it would make no sense to suddenly reverse that for the last season. It'd also be in really poor taste to reveal that Mike was actually using El and lying to her the whole time because he was actually in love with Will, and it would reflect really badly on Will if he were willing to date someone who'd do that to his sister.

Additionally, the Duffer brothers like Mileven. If was part of the original plan for the series and was set up from the beginning with s1. The also stated that they loved the monologue and praised Finn Wolfhard's acting during that scene, I highly doubt that they've been masterminding an entire plan to make Byler endgame when everything they've said and done in the show indicates that they've always planned for Mileven to become and stay a romantic couple.

Also, I disagree with the fact that not showing them having a heart to heart after the confession means that their relationship is on rocky ground. ST has, in every season, cut from just after the end of the action to an epilogue set a bit in the future. It's really unfair to say that when there should've been no expectation for such a conversation to happen. And while El wasn't talking in the epilogue, she wasn't talking to anyone and the reason is that she's sad about how she lost and failed to save Max. She still accepts Mike's comfort, so I think it's a reach to say that El has "checked-out" of their relationship based on what we've seen. Especially since Mike mentions that they have talked since the monologue scene, it just happened offscreen.

Additionally, I disagree that El's "main arc" was how she didn't feel loved by Mike. Her main arc was confronting Dr. Brenner and realizing that she wasn't "the monster." Her perception of her relationship with Mike was affected by this particular insecurity, but yet again, this isn't about Mike. This is about El and accepting herself. This yet again ignores that fact that they resolve their issues by the end of s4. Mike confesses his love! El already knew that he loved her because of s3, she just felt insecure. That's a perfectly normal thing and doesn't mean that they don't work well together. (I also don't know where you got the idea that Mike can't tell her about nerdy stuff because he literally does??? more than one time since s1???). I think that you're failing to realize that, yes, even though they aren't perfect, they always try to work things out when they do have problems. It ultimately comes down to this: El loves Mike and wants to be with him, and claiming that she doesn't actually know her own feelings or what she wants is a pretty terrible thing to say.

To add on to that, the whole "El should be single for her own sake" argument against Mileven smacks of misogyny and ableism. Many people claim that El is just "confused" about Mike and is only with him because she thinks she should be, stating that her traumatic and isolated childhood makes her incapable of understanding what romantic love is. Anyone who doesn't find this reasoning problematic should do some serious self-reflection. (And this isn't even mentioning the people who equate her way of speaking to emotional immaturity or unintelligence which is hugely problematic and completely ableist). There's also the fact that many of the people saying this horrible rhetoric also adamantly ship Byler, because, apparently, Will is exempt from the "people need to heal from their trauma before being in a relationship" rule. People are quick to devalue female characters who want to have romantic love, touting "independence" as what's best for them, often ignoring the entire context of the relationships they're discussing. El has independence, she's been forced to take care of herself alone, her entire journey has been finding love. Her romantic feelings for Mike, whether you like it or not, are a major part of that arc, and ignoring or claiming that they don't exist is a gross injustice to both of their characters.

While on the topic of ignoring a character's agency, people also do this to Mike. It's clear that he loves her. He was miserable throughout s2 when he thought he'd lost her. He's said that he loves El twice: once in s3 and once to her face in s4. I just don't understand the urge to minimize that. There is no reason to think that he's lying, so why don't people believe him? It seems like people want to deliberately twist his words to fit their ship. I've noticed a disturbing tendency among Byler shippers to treat Mike as a sort of trophy, claiming that Will "deserves" to be with Mike after all that he's been through. This is an extremely harmful mindset to have, along with the claim that Mike really does secretly want to be with Will deep down despite him saying otherwise. It is concerning how frequently those ideas are thrown around by certain shippers, especially when you consider how harmful that type of rhetoric is.

That's basically why I don't ship Byler and why I don't think it's going to be endgame. I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention the terrible behavior of the really extreme Byler shippers. They've made fake Mileven blogs that post homophobic things, and harassed people through asks, harassed people involved with the show, and have generally shown a lack of regard for fandom etiquette. I know that it's only a minority of them, but that behavior was what my earlier post was referring to. It's just really frustrating, as a Mileven shipper, to be called crazy and homophobic and other horrible things just because I want a couple who has been framed as romantic throughout the entire show to stay in a romantic relationship. Many Mileven shippers, especially on Tumblr, are queer and are extremely hurt when they're called homophobic for no reason. It's also extremely disrespectful to relate actual homophobia that real people experience to something as inconsequential as fictional characters kissing. Shipping is not a form of social advocacy and treating it as such is harmful. When it comes down to it, I don't really care about what people ship, it's the entitled behavior and constant rhetoric and the desperation to prove that everyone who disagrees with them is either unintelligent, "delusional," or morally inferior that makes me mad.

I guess I'll end this by saying that Byler is not going to be endgame, but that has literally no affect on your ability to enjoy it. Like I ship Stonathan even though there's no chance of it happening whatsoever. I just think it's nice. It's really not that deep. If you like Byler, good for you! There's no need twist canon, misrepresent the show to justify it. Just have fun with it! That's what fandom is all about!

Gosh, this was a monster of a post; it took me about a week to write! I'd like to give a very big thank you to the wonderful @lenorahills for helping me edit this post and brainstorm all of the points I wanted to make. The help was invaluable!

#well said #all of this #took words out of my head #mileven #stranger things #mike wheeler #el hopper #mileven4life #mileven is endgame #and will always be

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