miseryonmymind

[miseryonmymind]

(screenshotting to make my own post so as not to make a mess of the mod's notes, as requested.)

For the record I don't agree with that argumentative anon saying that there are "better things to worry about", because you are right. Transmisogyny is an issue, and it's just as important to talk about as the Wisalem stuff, particularly in connection to the Wisalem stuff. Because as much as they "defend" trans women, they're doing it in the absolute most transmisogynistic and gross way possible. (Not to mention those particular people being rapists and groomers. Whole other can of worms.)

And as I mentioned in my last writeup, I truly don't disagree at all that "misandry" and/or "androphobia" don't exist as axes of oppression. They don't. We're in agreement there!

With that being said, though, in my opinion, there is a difference between plain ol' transphobia and the specific distaste for trans men/transmascs. I do think it lies partly in a distaste for Men on the whole, which I don't not get (because I've not kept my head underground), though it's still knee-jerk hurtful to hear and see. I'm only human after all, lol. And it's different than the distaste/hatred of trans women, obviously! This is summed up well with "transmisogyny", of course. But there's no real good word to describe the specific distaste for transmascs.

I think the only real way to describe it is "anti-transmasculinity", or something similar. It's not oppression based on Maleness, and it's not JUST transphobia, because they're totally happy with and welcoming to trans women.

(To be fair I'd argue it does fall under "plain ol' transphobia" at least in part, because it's not really very kind or humanizing to the trans women it worships. But you get what I mean, I hope.)

Maybe just "anti-masculinity" in general...? I'm sure they're not going to be any more welcoming of cis men than they are of trans men. There's nothing inherently wrong with masculinity, it's just unfortunately tied up in Cis Maleness to a frustrating degree, given the general reputation that cis men have racked up, and it most definitely does rub off onto some peoples' opinions and understandings of trans men/transmascs.

(Caveat: some cis men are fantastic people and don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest. I'm not a cis man hater, but being obtuse about how cis men have shaped the world we live in, and how that world now affects all of us (including other cis men that don't conform to the expected!!) would be silly.)

Salem making Hitomi less femme over time I suppose could be argued as supportive of non-femininity, but... Honestly it just reads to me as more weird fetishism of trans women on his part. I find it tough to perfectly describe the feeling it gives me. Disrespect? Pandering...? I'm not sure. It doesn't feel like a thoughtful move made with care on his part, I'll say that.

I dunno. It definitely doesn't feel right to label this specific sort of behavior as solely transphobic. It directly relates to the masculinity of the people they're judging and being nasty to. It's a bizarre distaste for the masculinization of someone calling themselves a man, I guess. All I can come up with is "anti-(trans)masculinity".

[miseryonmymind]

There are a lot of people out there who seem to think that once a person chooses the label of "man" to describe themselves, that their former identity/what they were assigned to as children/what they are often still seen as in public suddenly stops affecting them. That the label of Man (derogatory) overrides all else. But that's just not how it works.

Putting this under a cut because I have quite a lot to say. This isn't directed at this anon specifically, just at the thought expressed here in general. I also don't speak for all trans men/transmascs. These are my own thoughts, though I see many of them echoed across various social media as well.

For those of us who don't, won't, or cannot pass, whether just for now or forever, it's very often anti-woman-based hatred that we suffer from because of our outward appearances and, many times, the parts we're born with. When many of us try to express that we're affected by this, and give examples and anecdotes (the same way that any other trans person does, to express feelings about their experience) to show what's happening, we're told that we can't experience misogyny because we're men.

Okay, I guess that's fair enough, but... There is most definitely an experience going on here that is directly related to being AFAB and/or perceived as women outwardly, and the word for being nasty to people who you think are women (whether it's true or not) is misogyny. Hmm... Oh! "Transmisogyny" seems to fit! Trans, because of course, and misogyny, because irrational hatred of women. That makes sense.

And then we're told we're TME. Transmisogyny-exempt. We can't be affected by transmisogyny, because we're not trans women.

...Okay, so, we can't say we're hurt regularly by society's hatred for women because we aren't women, and we can't align ourselves with other trans people who are also hurt by both transness and society's hatred for women, because we're not trans women. But, again, we are definitely affected by misogyny! So I guess we're meant to describe it with a specific, different word, despite the perfect one already existing in several different ways. Um. Well, I guess we can go with... Transandrophobia? A unique form of pain and oppression experienced by transmasc p—

"Androphobia doesn't exist. You can't be oppressed for being a man."

Right, we don't really disagree, but we're not allowed to say we're affected by misogyny of any kind, because we're not women. So this is a little more specific to what we're dealing with. It encompasses all of that, but makes it clear that we're men, so we're not claiming your space.

"Transphobia describes your problem just fine."

So we're experiencing transphobia and misogyny?

"No. You're not a woman. You can't experience misogyny. You're not hated for being women, because you're not women. And you're not hated for being men, because men aren't oppressed. You're hated for being trans."

Well, yes, we are hated for being trans. Same as you. We're also very much hated and hurt by the perception that we're women, and for the parts we're born with and how that's associated, on a society-wide scale, with Femaleness. So it's—

"You can't experience misogyny if you're not a woman."

...Even if a fair portion of the reason we're being hurt is because we're viewed and categorized as women?

"No one hates you for being women because you're not women."

And round. And round. And round, and round, and round...

I get what you're saying. Truly. I'm not trying to talk over you or argue with you about troubles you do or do not face, because that's absolutely not my business. I'm not trying to deny that how transfems are treated is barbaric and heinous. There are, no doubt, some bad transmasc actors out there, doing exactly those things. But by and large, transmascs just want to be able to express their specific experiences with words that make sense to use, and we're routinely told we're not allowed to do that because it steps on womens' toes.

I mean this genuinely: what are we meant to do? Not talk about how anti-woman rhetoric affects every person who is perceived as a woman as well as every person who is perceived as wanting to "invade womens' spaces"? Are we meant to only ever talk about how we can't get HRT or gender-affirming surgery because the state hates trannies (totally separate from gender as a concept at all, apparently), and totally ignore the fact that reproductive rights that affect us are gutted and used against us a weapons to deny our transness, that our population is at unfortunately regular risk for "corrective" rape and domestic violence, and that we're viewed as "failed/deviant girls"?

Transmascs aren't respected when we come out because we're labeled as poisoned by manly dykes, as stupid little girls experiencing Baby's First Feminism. Transfems aren't respected when they come out because they're labeled as poisoned by reality-denying perverts, as aberrant little boys who want to "pretend" to be women.

There's no coincidence in the fact that the transmasc problem is Denial, Downplaying, and Insults to Intelligence/Understanding of the "Real World", while the transfem problem is Aggressive Forbidding, Shaming, and Labels of Perversion.

(tw of possibly triggering language.)

They're teaching their "daughters" what they're meant to get used to: You don't know what you're talking about. Sit down, shut up, listen to the Men and grow your hair back out so he has something to hold you by. Welcome to your future, little girl. You get black eyes for talking back and saying no.

They're teaching their "sons" what they should be emulating: You get women you don't become women. You wanna be a woman so bad, I'll show you what it's like to be a woman when I beat your ass. Put that girly shit down, you're not going to shame this family with that pervert stuff.

(tw over.)

It's misogyny all the way down. They don't want their girls to be men because they don't believe girls are anything more than their ability to give birth and act as objects to be used by Real Men. They don't want their boys to be women because they see women as lesser creatures, and they think their boys should be subjugating women, not imitating them. It's all misogyny. We're all affected by misogyny, cis and trans alike. Every person is affected by the worldwide hatred and oppression of women. The reasons why and the outcomes of this are almost opposite, depending on your designation of "boy" or "girl" by society, but it's is always. Misogyny.

Trans men and transmascs can't suddenly divorce themselves from those experiences en masse and become Un-Women in an instant. Some manage to not be as affected by it by being in the right place at the right time, or passing well, or being surrounded by decent people, and I'm genuinely happy for them! But I'm not one of those guys. Many of us are still affected, and may always be affected. We may not be in the news all the time, and we may not be at the epicenter of Why The World Hates The Transes, but it's back to that same stuff again: Denial. Downplaying. Erasure of our issues entirely. (As opposed to the Hyperbole, Shaming, and Insistence Upon Danger that trans women receive on the world stage.)

We get denied as men at all by Outward Society, and we're relegated to the back with all the other failed/deviant women that will never live up to Female Expectation. The "real world" doesn't care about us because they don't deem us a threat, just a mockery of attempted masculinity (read: power) and a waste of an unused uterus and Testosterone injections.

We're denied as being affected by the things that we see and experience every day by Inward Society, and we're relegated to the back as Men Who Can't Be Harmed By Anti-Woman Rhetoric. The online world has begun telling us that we are a threat, specifically to trans women/transfems, because by explaining that we're having problems that stem from the exact same issue that affects them, we're MRAs and transmisogynists.

I must ask again... What do we do, then? How are we meant to explain and describe the unique oppression we face? Are we meant to advocate for human rights and rightfully call it for what it is—a denial of rights in many forms because of society's particular hatred/subjugation of women, femininity, and specific combinations of body parts—without allowing ourselves to say that it's hurting us, too? Why should we be asked to deny an aspect of our suffering?

Just to utilize an example, and by no means to claim it as a perfect analogy... A white-passing black person is still affected by racism; the denial/erasure of their blackness isn't a favor, it's a white-centering thought process that might be argued to benefit this person in some ways, but it absolutely does harm them in others. No one would or should deny that. Obviously it's not the same, but it's not overall dissimilar to what's happening here, with regard to relative privilege.

The relative privilege of being dismissed, as opposed to being highlighted, doesn't erase the things that do harm us. The relative privilege of "being seen as male" (only sometimes; only by already-cool people, or when we're denied entry into a space) doesn't stop us from being seen and labeled as female just as often and with malice. We're told that we belong with "The Queers" by ignorant cis people, but we're told by fellow queers that we can only relate to the type of oppression and pain that is deemed Reasonable For Transmascs if we want to stay.

I hope you understand what I mean with all this. I mean no ill will toward trans women or transfems in general. Not at all. Trans men on the whole don't want to hurt (the royal) you, or deny your experiences, or try to claim that we're More Oppressed, because it's not a contest of oppression. We have so, so much more in common than we have differences. It just starts to feel like no matter what we do, how we say things, what labels we use to describe what we go through, we can't win, and we don't belong.

It gets brought up on this blog because Salem is at once trying to claim that he's directly hurt by peoples' misconceptions about his non-HRT, non-op trans male characters (and himself), while also echoing Wis' sentiments that transmascs on the whole are horrible, nasty people and absolutely all of them hate trans women. Yet, somehow, Salem manages to dodge that label himself despite being transmasc...? It's very hypocritical, and it feels so... Fetishy and othering to trans women, to go on and on as though they're Creatures Beyond Humanity (positive) and not just Regular Women. Putting the people you claim to care about on a pedestal isn't a display of love, it's self-deprecating and borderline worship.

Thanks for reading. Sorry for doing this on your blog, Mx. Mod.

I do appreciate what this blog does, and I understand how important it is, but I’ve gotta say it sure loses credibility every time a post crying about “transandrophobia” gets published with no criticism. Like. That’s not real. Trans men get punished bc they’re trans not bc they’re men. The word transphobia is right there.

The reason the word transmisogyny exists is because it talks about the intersection between transphobia and misogyny, two real axis of oppression. It’s also why the word misogynoir exists, the intersection between misogyny and racism. If transandrophobia was a real thing, it would have to be the intersection of transphobia and misandry, and misandry is not and has never been a legitimate axis of oppression.

Whenever it’s raised as a legitimate concern here when it very much is NOT, all that’s happening is people giving WIs and Salem more ammo to prove that the people here are being transmisogynist bc transandrophobia is coined and used (whether this is conscious or not) to turn a conversation about women’s struggles into being focused on men in order to preserve their feelings. The fact that the men and women in the conversation are trans doesn’t change the fact that it’s distracting from legitimate discussions about misogyny, and therefore bringing harm to trans women. And so, in using this language uncritically and allowing it to flourish JUST bc Wis and Salem are involved is just damaging this blog’s ethos. You don’t fight people spouting bullshit by spouting bullshit right back.

(And yes, I understand that you, the blog runner, do not personally agree with every anon that sends shit nor do you agree with all of what they have to say but letting things like this slide and publishing them anyways without speaking up against it just makes a hostile, unproductive culture in what you, yourself maintain is meant to be a safe space to air out grievances. I ask, why is it noble to not stick up for women when a man is diminishing their oppression just because that man is trans? Or is it just a coincidence that we get an ask from a trans man airing grievances every week and yet very few trans women feel safe to speak here?)

tbh. 90% of the time. if i disagree with an anon, unless it is explicitly. i often do not bring it up, as a way to mitigate the inevitable flood of anons, that will directly respond to that single anon to disagree. it happened several times in the past, enough i felt unless it is topical, i should keep my personal opinion to a minimum. and it will definitely happen to this post too. but leaving it unaddressed personally, would sit wrong with me.

re: transfems feeling unsafe speaking here. if this is true, i have not seen it expressed, unless you are meaning yourself. i have gotten many transfem anons, both via my messages, and via inbox, especially in reference to feeling heard about salem's transfem fetishism. the inbox is very diverse, and i appreciate the many viewpoints i get, on many different queer experiences. personally. i do not think the term transandrophobia is fitting nor makes much sense really. however, it is harmful to deny that trans men and transmascs do not face specific injustices and forms of transphobia, unique to being transmasculine, which i often see ignored or attributed to misogyny, or basic transphobia. for example, transmasc's pregnancy is often more dangerous and stigmatized than woman's pregnancy already is, and many transmasc parents reported increased abuse, both from the world, and from the medical field, that does not just boil down to simple "misdirected misogyny" alone. it is one thing, to highlight that trans women ARE unfairly targeted, are often the least supported, and are often the most stigmatized, of the entire lgbt community. and it is another, to mock trans men and transmascs, calling them theyfabs, using terms like "zipper tits", i have literally recently seen posts, saying that a trans man was only acting so standoffish because he was on t. parroting stupid bioessentialist nonsense, to put someone down for their transition.

i am tired of infighting within the trans community. i have seen just about every discourse post, every counter point, ad nauseum. there needs to be a come to jesus moment. where queer people realize we have far more common enemies, than any of us need. making the same stupid post about flag colors, or slur discourse, or how unoppressed a group you are not a part of, is (looking directly at lesbiphobes, aphobes, biphobes), is not fixing any of our issues.