niceallocockbro

[niceallocockbro]

god even the notion of any significant amount of people genuinely HATING asexuals, especially to the point that it would warrant lumping “aphobia” in with homophobia and transphobia, is so fucking ridiculous

like you know that hatred of lgbt people originates from long before there were even any self-identifying terms for us at all, right? we’re hated for inverting gender roles. for dressing or behaving incorrectly according to our gender. acting upon desires that are supposed to be for the opposite gender. we’re hated out of fear that our desires and inclinations are going to destroy society. the hatred is biblical, it’s grounded in some people’s basic sense of morality, it’s institutional. it’s existed for thousands of years. we never needed to have terms like “gay” or “homosexual” for people to simply know what we were and to hate us for living our lives. 

meanwhile NO ONE has ever hated asexuals as a group prior to the online ace community. no one has ever had any religious or moral beliefs that made them feel justified in hating people who lacked sexual desire altogether. furthermore, no one would have ANY way of knowing or even suspecting that fact about anyone unless that person told them. 

if anyone hates ace people now it’s not FOR your lack of attraction, it’s for the absolute batshit takes they have to see yall make on the internet! it’s for trying to include cishets in the lgbt community and literally convincing a bunch of teenagers who haven’t finished puberty yet that they need to attach an identity label to their very biologically NORMAL lack of libido! and focusing on the specifically sexual feelings of children in general! and it’s frankly for in general just being very fucking annoying.

ace people as a community are not hated with any more vitriol or threat or institutional backing than, say, theatre kids are hated. no one outside of internet discourse has any opinion on you worse than ignorance or thinking you’re a little weird. NO ONE thinks it’s their moral duty to stop you from living your life or even cares enough to want you to stop at all. there’s nothing FOR you to stop in the first place! you’re just doing LESS than the average person! and the average person doesn’t fucking care!

anyway it’s been said a million times before but the literal reason for the lgbt community is that lesbian gay bi and trans people have a shared oppression. the hatred of each of us stems from the same exact thing. meanwhile the “hatred” of aceys comes from ppl just finding yall - and by yall i mean inclusionists specifically who have just been unfortunately made the face of the ace community - annoying... how hard is it to understand that those aren’t the same thing and how ridiculous it would be to tack on a letter that has nothing to do with the first 4

[niceallocockbro]

inclus will literally see us say “the ace community simply has different needs and goals than the lgbt community and lumping in ALL asexuals as lgbt actually harms both communities because of those contrasting needs” and then claim we just hate asexuals.... yeah thanks for making it extremely clear that you care way more about just claiming a space in the lgbt club than any potential actual “aphobia”

[niceallocockbro]

everyone responding is acting as if i'm calling asexuality an illness by comparing it to depression.... god you people are fucking morons have you ever heard of an analogy??? i'm obviously making the comparison specifically between inclus and depressed NTs who want in ND spaces

imagine if ppl who simply had clinical depression went into neurodivergent spaces and got upset that there wasn’t any “representation” for depression there, and then when nd ppl were inevitably like “well that’s because depression just isn’t a neurodivergent thing? plenty of us are depressed and our depression can definitely be intertwined with our autism or adhd or whathaveyou, but this just isn’t the space to talk about depression on its own because we have different needs” they were accused of being exclusionary 

and then of course there’d be the issue of how if depression WAS lumped in with being nd as an inherently nd thing, that would be damaging to both groups because 1) it would frame depression as an inherent Way To Be that will then make ppl struggling with depression to not have any hope for treatment, and 2) it would inversely frame neurodivergence as a mental illness (which it already often is) as opposed to just a different way of thinking and percieving the world.

and imagine if when you pointed any of that out, a bunch of nt depressed ppl just assumed you were depressphobic or something

anyway that’s exactly what ace inclusion feels like

[niceallocockbro]

god there’s SO much to unpack about this

do ppl like this not realize that when you agree to have sex with someone, if you don't make it clear otherwise then you are implicitly agreeing within the context of that you're both sexually attracted to each other???? like, okay, i hook up with guys that i'm barely if at all attracted to all the time, just because it's kinda inevitable that you gotta lower your standards when using grindr. but i don't TELL those hookups that i'm basically just in it for the dick! jesus christ! it's grindr, they're definitely well-aware that a more Full Attraction isn't necessarily assumed in this space. but it's still just the decent fucking thing to do to let there be plausible deniability and not be outright rude. if you feel the need to be totally forthcoming about your lack of attraction to someone you're having sex with, do that beforehand. holy shit. that’s just basic courtesy. i’ve been told by guys literally only AFTER having sex with them that they were straight and just experimenting, and my god did that make me feel disgusting. not just the not being particularly attracted to me personally but the not even being attracted to men. knowing that i was some guy’s experiment is just gross. knowing that you were someone’s sex toy rather than an actual intimate partner, similarly, has gotta make you feel SO used. 

furthermore... what on earth would give someone utterly lacking in sexual attraction the idea that another person “would be good at sex”? if you’re excluding “the inherent enjoyment of being physically intimate with someone you’re attracted to” from things that make sex good... then what sense did you get from them? that they had some specific sex-related skill? HOW would you get that idea in the first place? at best, i imagine you might think that they would be very attentive to you - you know, likely due to their own attraction to you, which they definitely believe that you reciprocate lmao

“Not a whit” end me

[niceallocockbro]

imagine if ppl who simply had clinical depression went into neurodivergent spaces and got upset that there wasn’t any “representation” for depression there, and then when nd ppl were inevitably like “well that’s because depression just isn’t a neurodivergent thing? plenty of us are depressed and our depression can definitely be intertwined with our autism or adhd or whathaveyou, but this just isn’t the space to talk about depression on its own because we have different needs” they were accused of being exclusionary 

and then of course there’d be the issue of how if depression WAS lumped in with being nd as an inherently nd thing, that would be damaging to both groups because 1) it would frame depression as an inherent Way To Be that will then make ppl struggling with depression to not have any hope for treatment, and 2) it would inversely frame neurodivergence as a mental illness (which it already often is) as opposed to just a different way of thinking and percieving the world.

and imagine if when you pointed any of that out, a bunch of nt depressed ppl just assumed you were depressphobic or something

anyway that’s exactly what ace inclusion feels like

[niceallocockbro]

love how that post didn't even ultimately make any point with that bullshit metaphor. and if "chocolate cake" is supposed to represent, what, m/f sex? m/f romance? straight trans ppl and bi ppl are all very much participating in those, lmao granted if op ACTUALLY believes that cishets separate society in their mind into the groups of "has straight sex exclusively" and "doesn't do that".... they're most likely like 15 or something

LMAO

[niceallocockbro]

the notion that an ace/aro person has any place to be calling themself a fruit based on the virtue of THAT alone has me foaming at the fucking mouth

my LGBTQA+ friend group call that mixed fruit

[niceallocockbro]

realized that cishet aces/aros (and cis aroaces) who think they’re lgbt remind me a lot of christian-raised athiests (in modern day western culture) who think that they’re part of an oppressed religion

like how they use purely anecdotal “evidence” aka stories about stuff like their families kicking them out or being made fun of at school, neglecting to account for the fact that unlike ppl in non-christian religions, the ONLY way for them to be visible as atheist is if they tell people. which it might be annoying to keep secret if it ever becomes relevant, but they’re not actually being Repressed From Living Their Truth by simply omitting some of it. there’s no Atheist Lifestyle that they’re being discouraged from living. it’s just assumed that they believe in god, and that question is unlikely to be outright asked of them unless they refuse to participate in christian activities that aren’t even that much effort to do. it would really be plain stupid to come out to a devout christian family as an atheist if you thought there were going to be real consequences because you gain absolutely nothing. you Not Believing In God is not a core part of your identity that affects how you live your life in general. if you don’t genuinely need to explain, say, why you’ve stopped attending church as an adult, there’s simply no point.

there’s also how anything they DO face has nothing to do with people actively specifically hating atheists and is instead just a result of a larger issue - christian abuse - which is going to equally harm their devout family members.

and it’s specifically due to their privileged status as being christian-raised in a christian-dominant society that they’ll be ignorant to the fact that there are just entirely different concepts applied to non-christian religions. which they prove with how they’ll deride ALL organized religion as inherently bad. they don’t recognize that most other religions are essentially indigenous to where their largest populations are (or where their ethnic origins are) and have far more culture tied to them. they usually don’t even KNOW that atheists raised in other religions not only have a completely different attitude toward their atheism, but often don’t reject the religion they grew up with because you simply can’t separate the spiritual traditions from the secular ones.

atheism isn’t a religion. nor is it mutually exclusive with all religions. it doesn’t imply any set of morals, any traditions, any culture, etc. it simply means you don’t believe in the existence of any deities. ultimately, whether or not one believes there’s a god just... doesn’t matter that much. it’s internal and very personal. there’s SO much more to spirituality. which is why almost any atheist who was raised in a non-christian religion will classify themself as that religion alongside the qualifier that they are atheist. meanwhile christian-raised atheists very rarely do so.

and listen, this isn’t a perfect parallel. many sects of christianity are extremely abusive and it makes sense to want to separate yourself from that. but you can’t deny that you’ll never ever get away from christian values. they're not just in the house you grew up in. they’re in your WHOLE society.

christianity is so pervasive that it overlaps with the supposedly “secular.” ppl will say they’re completely divorced from christianity just because they don’t believe in god anymore, but they’ll still celebrate christmas and easter. they’ll still hold beliefs that they learned through christian teachings whether they realize it or not. and they’ll use the fact that their family doesn’t approve of their lack of belief in god to justify being a dick to people of other religions. because they’re convinced that they’re ALL like christianity when they’re in fact victims of christianity.

while yes, christians are all about the Thought Crimes, they don’t care nearly as much about beliefs that you lack as they do about Wrong Beliefs that you HAVE. even moreso, being open about having those Wrong Beliefs. believing in the “wrong god” and doing “rituals” that aren’t allowed, and whatnot. hell, bouts of “lacking faith” are even EXPECTED. the vast majority of the time, if a christian finds out that a fellow christian has stopped believing in god, they react with pity and a desire to help. meanwhile discovering that someone has a different religion entirely is often met with conversion attempts or outright persecution.

say a handful of ppl of different religions - jewish, muslim, sikh, hindu - were all talking about their experiences with discrimination relating to religion. even if none of these people wear identifying religious symbols or scarves or other clothing, chances are they don’t need to in order to be recognized as from a culture that’s largely non-christian.

now, you’d obviously say that it’s extremely inappropriate for a christian-raised atheist to try to JOIN this conversation, right? like, yall understand that the absolute worst thing the christian atheist could describe would most certainly be an isolated incident, meanwhile all of these visibly non-christian people are talking about very regular experiences. they would have to outright lie about their origins in order to avoid discrimination (and that still might not even work), meanwhile there’s absolutely nothing that would make an atheist get “clocked” as one. one of those original people might even also be atheist themself, but they don’t feel the need to talk about it because it’s NOT their specific lack of belief in a god that gets them persecuted; it’s the fact that they are part of a culture with non-christian values and follow non-christian traditions.

the atheist does not belong in this group - not because they’re an atheist, but because they were raised christian, and therefore cannot relate or even benefit from the conversation other than to make it about them and likely make everyone else uncomfortable at best. they could, however, certainly benefit from a conversation with other atheists who are talking specifically about their atheism.

all this to say that once again it’s not a PERFECT parallel and i’m NOT trying to make any direct comparisons between other aspects of religion, but lmao doesn’t all that sound familiar?

[niceallocockbro]

i fucking hate to make an ace discourse post in 20 fucking 20 but it really needs to be said and i KNOW this is gonna come off as a smarmy “i told you so post”

but i’ve been on twitter recently and there is a fucking DELUGE of people promoting the idea of “bisexual lesbians” (never bisexual gay men but like… that’s a tangential dialogue for another time). this idea that you can be bisexual and a lesbian at the same time is a direct product of the split attraction model.

this is the EXACT shit i was talking about when I said rhetoric from ace community is not compatible, at all, with the LGBT community.

sexualizing the -sexual suffix so “bisexual” SOLELY means “SEXUALLY attracted to the opposite gender” so someone can be bisexual and “homoromantic” is ACTIVELY harmful to lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals. it sexualizes bisexuals without consent and COMPLETELY redefines what gayness is so it can include attraction to the “opposite” gender.

and this is just one example of how ace inclusion–not just the inclusion of cisgender, straight aces but also the prioritization of ace ideals–hurts the LGBT community. the rhetoric that you can have sex with people you aren’t attracted to to “make it work” romantically is conversion therapy rhetoric. Ace inclusion makes it seem like the LGBT community is about our relationships to sex when that just isn’t true. Ace inclusion means “desexualizing” LGBT spaces so as not to upset asexuals. All this shit AND MORE is happening in real time and I’ve watched it get worse and worse, hand in hand with the commercialization of LGBT pride and the liberalization of LGBT activism.

ace rhetoric is eroding LGBT identities. the idea of the “bisexual lesbian” and other mogai microidentities where you parse every single aspect of your identity into a different label is actively harming vulnerable LGBT people.

and, no, this isn’t me saying “even LGBT aces have to go,” but this is me saying that putting ace identities at the forefront of ANY LGBT discussions leaves a lot of space for harm for LGBT people. and that any fucking ace rhetoric besides “it’s okay to not feel sexual attraction or want to have sex” comes at the expense of LGBT identity.

genuinely, the concept of “bisexual lesbian” is a direct product of the ace community and it has caused lesbians and bisexual women irreparable harm. and aces should be ashamed of this because this is what they have been defending for years.

this is the EXACT shit we said would come out of the split attraction model and now we have TEENAGERS telling strangers and adults “i’m sexually attracted to [x genders] but only romantically into [y]” and y’all think this is okay. even if it weren’t fucking INSANE to say lesbians can be attracted to men or that bisexuals can be half gay or half straight, you’d STILL be out of fuckng line having KIDS center identities around SOLELY sexual attraction.

i’m ripshit pissed

[niceallocockbro]

Aces: being ace has nothing to do with asexual reproduction! Amoeba is a slur!

SpongeBob creator: SpongeBob is ace because he's a sponge that reproduces asexually

Aces: this is a representation win

[niceallocockbro]

i'm dying at this reply to the US supreme court ruling on employer discrimination of lgbt people because, like, what the actual fuck would you get fired for

[niceallocockbro]

[niceallocockbro]

what i really wanna know is why inclus think that being ace has anything to do with lgbt when, if it WAS inherently part of the community and lgbta was real, ace would be the ONLY one that

is explicitly describing the lack of something

can coexist with a gender and sexuality label

can coexist with being cis and straight

has nothing to do with gender and does not invert gender roles 

IS inherently related to sex 

(something that is WRONGFULLY believed about lgbt ppl and which we actively fight against, btw)

a person literally does need to at least be a teenager to POSSIBLY know about themself

(bc sexual attraction rarely happens before puberty)

would actually be genuinely inappropriate to explain to a young child 

(bc you have to explain sex first)

a person could easily mistake themself to be PURELY because of an illness or a medication that was killing their libido

(and many do)

could never ever be evident about a person unless that person was announcing their identity on purpose

and would face no danger even if they did

has faced no religious moral backlash and is in fact considered morally pure by christians

has no threat of conversion therapy

all in all, affects merely one aspect of someone’s life

like… can you make a list even HALF this long for the differences that either lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender have from each other??? the lgbt community is one community for a REASON. we’re not just grouped together for fun. we have shit in common and we fight a common enemy. 

if someone barely has anything in common with us and has never been a target of OUR common enemy… why on earth should they be grouped with us? why is their own community not good enough for them? 

[niceallocockbro]

the hypocrisy of inclus

“a gay ace person isn’t any less gay for not having sexual attraction!” + “a heteromantic asexual isn’t straight because they’re ace!”

“being ace has nothing to do with whether or not you have a libido” + “a disorder that describes having no libido is in the DSM and that’s proof that aces are pathologized”

“exclus clearly don’t go outside because if they did they’d see that no one in the irl lgbt community shares their views” + “aphobia is real because aces get discriminated from irl lgbt spaces”

“the ace label isn’t inherently about sex! not if you don’t use the SAM” *literally always uses the SAM*

feel free to add any that i forgot :)

[niceallocockbro]

when i tell people irl that i’m gay, i start getting overly sexual questions that those people would never ask someone they thought was straight. they suddenly think it’s appropriate to ask me for details about my sexual preferences and what it’s like to do [insert gay sex act here], and to tell me, a near stranger, details of their own sex life that i didn’t ask for. or to very abruptly bring up something explicitly sexual or show me literal porn out of the blue, believing my being gay is an automatic consent to that.

when people know that i’m gay, any comment i make about another man’s appearance is percieved as sexual. what would be an innocent compliment from even a fellow straight man will have people around me act uncomfortable if not outright disgusted, because it’s assumed that i’m trying to make a sexual pass at that guy. 

these people don’t know all the details of how i experience attraction and i don’t tell them, because it doesn’t matter. and not just because it’s not their business, but also because assumptions will be made about how obsessed with sex i must be NO MATTER WHAT! based solely on the fact that they know i’m a man that likes men! every interaction i have with other men is oversexualized, either for them to be disgusted by me or for them to find entertainment.

i used to sometimes bring up the fact that i hadn’t actually had any sex in a couple years, and a good chunk of the response was “GOOD, because gay sex is against god.” 

if i were to lie and tell these near strangers that i literally never have sex or feel sexual attraction at all, the worst that would happen is that they would think i was lying, or question how i could know that i’m gay. but the common response from overt homophobes would be relief: Relief that i’m not going to be predatory (as they believe all gay men to be) and Relief that i’m not out there committing carnal sins. 

bc that’s what homophobia against gay (and bi) men is GROUNDED on - the idea that we’re inherently hypersexual deviants, and the desire to make us Not be that. we’re seen as MUCH more palatable when we’re non-sexual. conversion therapy seeks not even to force us to do Heterosexual things, but to remove our sga from us through trauma - because that’s all they actually feel the need to do before they’re satisfied.

the oversexualization gets even worse when you’re trans - everything about our transitions, ESPECIALLY that of trans women’s, is percieved to be for sexual reasons due to further inversion of gender roles, and therefore an even more punishable example of sexual deviancy. lesbophobia combines homophobia with misogyny to simultaneously oversexualize AND desexualize wlw - objectifying them for male pleasure when they conform to gender enough and acting like they’re incapable of sex when they don’t. biphobia once again punishes percieved hypersexuality and other supposed moral failings.

all lgbt people are 1) forced to be totally unsexual in order to be respected AND 2) percieved as sexual deviants and therefore subhuman no matter how much or how little sex we actually have, EVEN if we outright tell them. 

the homophobia that has allowed and in most cases STILL allows businesses and landlords and schools and even medical institutions to discriminate against lgbt people, and which has kids kicked out and disowned, and which has peace officers less likely to protect us, which in all of these cases has our livlihoods and actual LIVES treated as lesser… are all based in religious moral outrage of our supposed sexual deviancy. (the same religious morals that, might i add, see a lack of sexual feelings as virtuous, but anyway - )

sexually active gay men are literally not allowed to give blood, despite the fact that all donated blood is tested before it’s used anyway, based on notions of our sex lives being riddled with disease. 

meanwhile our romantic attraction is never isolated to be discriminated against specifically, because it’s the very basis of homophobia that we’re not believed to even have it. there’s an underlying belief that lust is all we’re capable of, as shown by how our mere identities are seen as “inappropriate for children.” and that assumption is often made without us having to come out or even needing a same-gender partner next to us. being visibly gnc is often enough. 

so it goes without saying that when we DO openly express sexual attraction, even if it’s far less than what cishets can get away with? it only gets us a WORSE deal with systemic privilege vs. oppression. 

tldr; there’s no such fucking thing as “allo” privilege.