nygmaass

[nygmaass]

This would be so real if it was the 90’s

I also came up with some Q&Es. had some other options but narrowed it down to these. Mainly working off of nose and face shape.

This is Jessica Henwick, Erika Eleniak and rachel ward

I think I’ve just realised something about my crush on James spader

It’s always the riddler

[nygmaass]

I think I’ve just realised something about my crush on James spader

It’s always the riddler

[nygmaass]

Hi! I’ve read a bunch of your posts about Q&E and how they are treated in R!TP and I do agree with you. I definitely believe they are being mischaracterized to a degree. But I also had a thought, Rogues!Riddler’s entire plot seems to be about him getting over his aversion — almost fear — of loyalty, of having friends and family. Something he’s claimed in the podcast to not understand.

I always thought that as he gets his character development in season 7 — as he’s likely going to try and smooth things over with Waylon and Jon — he would start being less aggressive towards the people who are nice to him.

I think it might go in the direction where he believes Q&E are loyal to just a paycheck but really they care about him as well. They also seemed to be happy for him after he saved Jon from Pyg going “oooooh” like Jon and Eddie were gonna get together.

At least I hope thats the direction it’s going in. But what do you think?

@riddle-us-this

Thank you for your question!Unfortunately, it doesn’t particularly matter how rogues! Progresses, when the issues are at the base of their creation. Codot could develop Q&E further, but that doesn’t change the poor writing that’s already taken place and the root problems of their characterisation. Even if the Riddler does develop a relationship later with them, we already have other main issues I’ve discussed. Echo specifically is not a substantial character and I find this is a common theme with women in codotverse while of course, it does centre riddler and scarecrow. I feel the women are more used as props to bounce off of while not being given a true character. I’m also disappointed in Codot, who I believe is pansexual. He includes Riddler’s sexuality, but when it comes to Q&E, that’s not a given. I’ve also seen his account where he posts a fair bit of fetish, so he is queer and must be familiar with fetish scenes, which just makes the writing so much more frustrating on a personal level, because you can’t even be ignorant to Q&E yet he is.

Things that can be fixed

•The minimisation of Q&E’s support and importance to the Riddler

•The relationship between the girls and the Riddler

Because the girls haven’t been developed properly, there is still room to correct that.

Things that won’t be changed

•Personality/ characterisation issues

•Sexuality + Queer history and relation to fetish

These are ridged now they have been written. This has already been established and their characters have been built around this so it would be a lot more work to change that now.

The issues run much deeper and establishing better relations with the Riddler wouldn’t fix that. You can’t develop a character if you clearly have no care or interest in them, otherwise better research would have taken place.

[nygmaass]

I want to get my hands on those peach riot figures. They’re so cute and I think I could make them into such cute Q&E figures

THEYRE SO PERFECT but I can’t seem to find any out the packaging tho. I don’t know if I Should risk getting a blind box

[nygmaass]

Slutty but nervous about it

hes just stood there.... menacingly. 🧍‍♂️

[nygmaass]

I think you can only answer a Question once so I’ll just tag you, since it’s easier to split this into two parts. @kazissexy

“What would you consider to be the media that best represents Q&E? and add onto that- What do you think is essential when writing their characters?”

(This is reuploaded but slightly tweaked to hopefully answer this question by giving an example of bad writing, in reference to rogues!)

The first issue is the way the riddler treats Q&E within Rogues! Is weird and there’s no way the girls would take that treatment. they are working for Edward because it pays well, and they like to. They worked well together before Edward, and they even work for other criminals if he’s not available (Nightwing Vol 2 #1,000,000, 1998). They would not stick around for poor treatment. They are not meek in any way, and do not need to be portrayed as such. Even in Questions multiply the mystery (1995) when they are abandoned they come after the riddler with an axe.

Furthermore:

• ​Nina in particular is treated badly. She is an idiot to put it plainly, she lacks the intelligence or ability to keep up with Edward. It feels like her only purpose is comic relief not to play an actual role. It comes to a point where I’d question if she was necessary to include.

• There is definitely an imbalance in how Query and Echo are portrayed. They do not read as equals, Query is the more competent one, the one who Edward can prefer and trust while Echo is barely tolerable and frankly quite lazy. How does one forget to do their job?

• The only form of personality codotverse Q&E have is lusting over Jonathan and giggling like school girls, Which is disheartening to listen to, why are two strong women being reduced to that? It also feels a little wild considering Query is a lesbian (as seen in Robin Vol 2 #93, 2001) through her Labrys axe tattoo. The labrys axe was a commonly claimed symbol in 70’s among lesbians (though not now). “Send out the right signals so other women can cruise you” (The pink paper, 1995) in reference to wearing an Labrys axe. Echo isn’t confirmed, but likely to be queer to. They are clearly visually queer punk women taking inspiration from the lesbian BDSM scene in the 90's. Related reading would be Robinson, S. (2018) who writes about this new acceptance in the 80’s and 90’s of “sex radicalism”among lesbians creating a community to explore “a range of sexual practices and aesthetics more commonly linked with gay men, such as sexual sadomasochism (S/M) and leather.” If you want to know what this looks like Chloe Sherman has a book ("Renegades, San Francisco: The 1990s") of photos of lesbians that show the queer culture and fashion at this time (she has some of these photos on her instagram) it does not need to be explicitly said when it is ingrained in their design. They are queer women.

•Codoverse also feels like it ignores their comic book relationship. The way Edward and the girls interacts canonically isn’t strictly boss/worker, there’s quite a blur in boundaries. Edward both LIKES and fears the girls. They have a very physically close relationship that isn’t typical when you look at other characters and henchpeople (especially if you look at other henchpeople of the riddler's) he is fond of them, and they hold a fondness for him... They are affectionately close. Codotverse portrays a very different idea of their relationship that just feels cold and very black and white.

Both girls are neglected and poorly written

(This is more personal issues as well as alternative idea to fix it)

•I also find it odd that Nina is a gamer, which is really not the biggest deal, but there was more potential to build on what was already there. She’s a biker. We know that, we know her and Diedre are very bold and fun girls. They get enjoyment from the thrill of what they do. Query is shown to be trigger happy and it's clear they are both reckless. So why not have them as joyriders and adrenaline junkies because that’s who they are. I’d even like to see them in roller derby something that differs from comics but still is in line with their characters. Roller derby has a big punk and lesbian culture. It is fun, fast pace and has a positive relationship with sexuality of women which seems perfectly suited to them. If you want to read to get an idea of derby culture Jessica Stites (2008) is a good place to start.

Their personalities felt so tame and out of place in Rogues! for the characters they really are. They deserve to be portrayed better, they are interesting characters and sure comics do not delve deep enough into who they are as people (I wish there was more) but rogues! Does an awful job.

Sources l've referenced (outside of comics)

Jessica Stites (2008) Roller derby queens: short skirts, fishnets, and full contact. Inside the lesbian underground of the Los Angeles Derby Dolls. The Advocate

Robinson, S. (2018) "the new lesbian sexual revolution": Lesbian sex radicals in Sydney during the 1980s and 1990s, Australian Historical Studies, 49(4), pp. 441-456. doi:10.1080/1031461x.2018.1522654.

Sherman, C. (2023) Renegades: San Francisco: The 1990s. Berlin: Hatje Cantz.

The pink paper (1995) Queer icons: Labrys. London: Gay Times, Ltd.

[nygmaass]

What would you consider to be the media that best represents Q&E? and add onto that- What do you think is essential when writing their characters?

Omg yessss I love to talk about Q&E!! Unfortunately, there is limited media of them, so the only canon media you can really consume is comic books. So I’d say that is the best. I have a list of all Q&E appearances that I will actually upload onto my pinned post as well to make it easier to locate.

Within that the best comic books to read are:

•Detective Comics Annual #8 Questions multiply the mystery(1995)

•Detective Comics Vol 1 #705, #706, #707(1996)

•Robin Vol 2 #93, #94 (2001)

•Batman:The Riddler Factory DCAU #119 (1995) (This one follows Quiz and Query but is so good)

These are my personal favourites and I think the best representations of them.

When it comes to writing them, I have touched on this with a criticism of rogues! Which poorly represents the girls and I will reupload that separately to give an idea of what not to do.

I think the most important thing is their relationship with the Riddler. They are supportive roles to him. However, Edward does appreciate them (as much as he can anyway). The girls have a positive relationship with the riddler. Which brings me to my next point,

Sexualisation. DC Comics sexualise their female characters and Q&E are sexualised aesthetically. That’s why they’re called “BADD girls”, a joke on them drawn with larger breasts. HOWEVER, brilliantly enough, they are never treated differently for being sex workers. The riddler doesn’t look down on them for this (there are two comics where he doesn't talk about them very nicely, but that's later in their existence). Over all, the girls working at Pandora’s Box is never negative, and they are never treated poorly for it because the riddler A) doesn’t care, B) appreciates them, C) sees them as kindred spirits.

When it comes to personalities, there’s very limited information to draw on, but from the fact that the Riddler keeps them around often, we can tell they must be intelligent, otherwise they probably wouldn't last long. They are also willing to listen to the Riddler and have a sort of affectionate personal relationship with him where he's also happy to open up to them. Moving onto more solid aspects, the girls are both reckless and wild. With little distinction between them, Detective Comics #845 (2008) however, offers the Riddler specifically naming Query as impulsive, with a gun, which leads me to the conclusion that while both are reckless, Query is the more trigger-happy one out of the pair.

Sexuality, I also think, is very important to them even if it’s not mentioned. I will touch on this further when I share my critique of rogues! Query is canonically a lesbian echo is never confirmed but from context it’s clear she’s also queer it’s just not specifying her sexuality.

If you’re writing Q&E I think these are the main points to keep in mind and while DC doesn’t always offer much. Q&E do offer a surprisingly solid ground to work off of especially if you focus on on the 90’s being their prime, queer history + fetish community (because that history is linked) which then introduces us to the punk community and lesbian movements at the time. Given the time and right writer Q&E would be really interesting and realistically complex characters.

[nygmaass]

my beautiful wife

[nygmaass]

AHHH I LOVE THESE BEAUTIFUL LADIES

We click together just like pieces in a puzzle

[nygmaass]

I need more of this 😩

I love Ed being a girls girl and having female friendships

[nygmaass]

Not Q&E but OBSESSED

yeag whatever. ok

[nygmaass]

I need to start incorporating Q&E into my wall. Just put up a third poison ivy

[nygmaass]

You know It wouldn’t stop

[nygmaass]

I saw this last night and had to make it Q&E!

(Original- Bamforth & Co Ltd, 1910s.)

[nygmaass]

Riddler’s henchwomen reading

•Secret Origins Special #1 (1989)

This is the first time we hear of the girls, they are called Query and Probe in their first introduction. (Mentioned)

Active roles

•Detective Comics Annual #8 (1995)

First proper introduction and view of Q&E, as Query and Echo. One of the best comics to read for them. (Active role)

•Detective Comics #706, #706, #707

Q&E assist the riddler, in breaking cluemaster out of prison. (Active role)

•Batman 80-Page Giant #1 (1998)

Little glimpse of them actively fighting along side the riddler. however, while they have an active role they have no lines, and un-named. (Active role)

•Nightwing #1000000 (1998)

Riddler is not present. Q&E are working for sly fox while the riddler is in Arkham. (Active role)

•Robin #93, #94 (2001)

Great for Q&E content. Query is also see to have a Labrys axe tattoo, in the 70's-90's wearing a labrys axe was used to identify lesbians.(Active role)

•Batman:Gotham Knights #44(2003)

We see Q&E as they hold a restaurant hostage demanding for the release of "Eddie nygma" from blackgate. (Active role)

•Batman: Prelude to the Wedding - Batgirl vs. the Riddler #1 (2018)

The whole premise of this comic is just uncomfortable but Q&E I guess (active role)

Mentions/Brief appearances

•Birds of Prey #74 (2004)

Q&E are briefly shown in this comic, fighting huntress and Canary. They are not named but have a line each. (Brief appearance)

•Detective Comics #822 (2006)

Q&E are not an active part but riddler introduces Pandora’s Box a sex/fetish club Q&E work at (mention)

•Detective Comics #845 (2008)

There are two women shown among riddler's hench people that we can infer are Q&E however they have no active role and only Query is named.(Mention)

•Detective Comics #969 (2017)

Query & Echo have a very breif showing unnamed but do have one or two lines with no contribution to the plot. (Brief appearance)

•Batman and Harley Quinn #3 (2017)

Q&E make a very very brief appearance at the end of this comic. They have no lines and are un-named. (Brief appearance)

•DC: Love Is a Battlefield #1 (2021)

Mentioned by 'matches malone' when making a dig at the riddler but girls remained unnamed. (Mention)

Quiz and Query

•The Batman Chronicles #3(1995)

Quiz and query are seen as supportive characters to the riddler’s choice to turn away from the riddles. (Query and Quiz)

•Batman: Riddler #1 (1995)

Quiz and query continue the usual closeness we see with riddler and his Henchwomen.(Query and Quiz)

•Detective Comics #798 (2004)

There is a brief mention of quiz and query as Riddler is complaining about his lack of relationship with the women in his life to ivy. (Mention) (Quiz and query)

Solos

•Batman and Superman: World's Finest #2 (1999)

When super man comes to Gotham that's when we see query. Now for this comic they have seemed to merge Q&E into one person with an appearance that combines them both. (Solo appearance)

[nygmaass]

Reading Q&E and finding new appearances is like drugs to me. I could snort a line and it wouldn’t get me as excited.

[nygmaass]

Rubbing my hands together, evilly, as I add Batman and Harley Quinn #3 onto my Q&E list. Heheheh I have 21 comics on it now 😈😫