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pregantheimlich · 8 years ago

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Feedback to Fandom Followings Thoughts on Turf Wars

Article here: https://www.thefandomentals.com/legend-korra-turf-wars-grounding/

@lokgifsandmusings

Check out Fandom Following, their Game of Thrones reviews are life. On this article, I happened to disagree, so here is my play by play.

I’ll start by outlining my thoughts on Turf Wars: meh. The scope of the story seems like it has shrunken, and I cant imagine that any really significant character development or changes to the cannon will be introduced. The gay stuff is kind ill fitting, sure, but I am quite tickled and gratified to watch characters I’ve known for years interact with this material, and I finally feel like gayness exists in the Avatar verse. I mean, hearing that Aang canonically had an opinion on gayness.. Aang who I grew up with, whom I was almost of an age with once, has canonically acknowledged that gay people exist and is cool about it. Its’ weird- in a good way, though honestly I feel like i’m reading fanfic.. Overall I’m underwhelmed with turf wars, just because I don’t think the story will be that ambitious or significant, honestly. Kyas gay history 101 was face palming fanficcy, anachronistic and misshapen... Now onto the article.

Something about the argument falls very flat to me. The central point is how sexism in the Avatar-verse isn't so bad, and thus homophobia cannot exist.... Almost like they are two different issues? I understand and agree with the fact that one of the roots of homophobia is heterosexism, but there is more to it than that.

''Our point is, women are just like…there in this universe. They’re not even treated any differently, barring the few exceptions we described above.''

Like, no... Strong women exist, yes. .. That doesn’t mean the universe isn't significantly sexist. The show has chosen to focus on these women, but that doesn’t mean all women have the same life experience... Look at our world, there have always been strong successful women, who rise to the top and make history...By that logic, the real world isn't significantly sexist and therefore institutionalized homophobia simply cant exist, why? Becuase there are strong women.. (???)

'''Any character who said something sexist got immediate, negative feedback, or was ignored, because that’s super weird of them. '''

Or its because they where talking to the protagonists, who are good people, and therefore don’t go along with sexist comments.

''What structural sexism could exist with this history? ((referring to how badass Kyoshi was))''

So your point is, that Kyoshi was an incredibly high status, messianic figure, and so that would make everyone respect all women everywhere? Like... Look at real life.There have been many prophetesses and women who start cults because people think they can perform miracles and the like, and women who rise high in religious establishments, and female saints... Has exposure to what are ostensibly powerful magical women been shown to change societal attitudes toward all women? Joan of Arc was a very forceful character, and she and her followers believed she could speak to God directly... Did this give the patriarchs of the day epiphanies about the intrinsic value of women?

'''But…there’s no societal dominance that men have over women in this world to be upheld, at least not on a broader scale. If there was, we couldn’t have had characters like Toph or Kuvira get the general reception that they did: full acceptance and respect.'''

????? No societal dominance??? How about arranged marriages? We know the monarchies of the Fire and Water nations did it, so I assume their nobility and the small folk follow suit, to a greater or lesser extent. And again, on the Toph and Kuvira point.. Exceptions don’t disprove the rule. High status women and gays don’t negate the power structures in society.

'''Please, tell us how the concern over Korra not being accepted fits with the world we just described. Who would challenge her? Who would be stupid enough? And how would the potential for that feedback be great enough that she actually needs to navigate cautiously? What are she and Asami in danger of, exactly? Also if this had been such an issue, wouldn’t Asami have exhibited slightly less than the extreme thirst for Korra that we witnessed in Book 3?'''

Surely you understand that their fears (and the fears of real young queer people) are more complex than simply 'I’m afraid I will be literally murdered immediately'... It can be about worrying that people wont love you as much, or wont be able to look at you the same way, even if they don’t outright reject you. It can be feeling that you have let people down, by not having the romantic destiny they had hoped you would have. It can feel humiliating as if the knowledge of it will give people a a glimpse into what you like sexually. There can be issues about which partner is perceived to be the 'top' and which is the 'bottom' and the status differentiation that can be seen to entail. And remember, Korra had no inhibitions about telling people, it was Asami who was reticent. I've never been much of an Asami fangirl, but her anxiety over this rather endeared her to me. It makes sense: she was raised by a man who had very extreme prejudices against a minority group, and Asami seems to maintained free thought about that issue her whole upbringing, but knew to be secret about it. Secrecy and fear of discover over that probably became her modus operandi and recurred over the awakening of her feelings for Korra. Hiroshi was a public figure and must have imparted a sensitivity to reputation and public appearances to Asami. Asami was also bereft of her mother, which may have lead to complications about how she feels about and interacts with women. I think its very understandable that she is not 100% gung-ho about coming out. Also, I don’t understand how anyone can say their flirting was obvious... Grl, I remember how utterly scandalized 90% of the audience was with Korrasami.

'''That is why, in a general sense, homophobia cannot exist on an institutionalized level in this universe, and certainly not to a degree where the spiritual leader would feel unsafe being openly bisexual.'''

?????????? 'Unsafe'??? There are more dimensions to this than physical safety. Spiritual leaders don’t get a free pass form wider society to do whatever they want without reproach. If you do believe that homophobia comes (almost) entirely form sexism, and you have acknowledged that there is at least some level of sexism in the universe then by your own reasoning there is room for some atmosphere of homophobia, or at least an atmosphere that is not super enlightened or welcoming to The Gays.

''Yet homophobia was introduced in this comic—more or less immediately after Korra and Asami returned to the “real world.” (As an aside, we’re really not fond of *that* particular messaging.)'''

This is a personal comment rather than the Well Reasoned Feedback of the rest of this response post but... That rings quite true in my experience.. When you are with someone, especially when things are new and uncertain, it is like entering another world, where the rules are different. When you come from a world where same sex attraction is absent or is seen as distasteful or just plain bad, and then you meet someone whom you fall in love with.. It can give rise to feelings of disassociation and other-worldliness. And then when the vacation is over, suddenly you are back in the real world, and suddenly the worries about what people will think come at you like a wall.

'''(Talking about Kyas gay history lesson) To put it bluntly, we find all of this incomprehensible given what we know from ATLA and LoK. Literally everything is backwards.'''

Yeah I agree on this one.

''The description of the Water Tribes is more confusing. We wonder if Mike remembered that the Water Tribe was you know…a tribe. Family units are almost always deemphasized in such society, and we know they were in the Southern Water Tribe during ATLA’s run, because we saw it. It was one village with everyone having a collective responsibility to one another.'''

Umm, 'family units de-emphasised''' like no, Marriage was central to the culture... The thing that established family units.

''Let’s start with the Fire Nation. We already explained that it was quite canonically egalitarian. '''

I think this is wishful thinking.... We're never explicitly told that male primogeniture is in effect but.. Look at this family tree...

See any female Fire Lords (before Izumi)? Nope, all male. Did the firstborn happen to be male for 4 straight generations? Or is something else being implied? See how the women are not prominent, and most aren’t even warranted physical appearances.

''Azula was treated incredibly seriously and respectfully by everyone she interacted with, be it the governor of New Ozai, or her ship’s captain. '''

Dude... She is literally the princess. The heir apparent to the throne.... And her being privileged and respected is ... evidence of egalitarianism???

''there was simply no indication that a ‘Fire Lord Azula’ would have been met with a single eye blink.''

Female heirs inherit the throne... This is kind of standard procedure for dynasties with no male heir... Not so rare in history.. And remember, Ozai did invent an even higher seat for himself: the Phoenix King' so Azula is still subservient.

''But any systemic sexism was gone by Ozai’s time given what we saw in ATLA, so… Was Ozai a wonderful feminist reformer for the Fire Nation’s military?''

Sozin outlawed same-sex relationships, which apparently also implies he was sexist and against women in the military? These issues are linked, sure, but they aren’t the same issue.

''Are gay couples somehow targeted without women’s rights being an issue at all? We certainly can’t think of many examples in our world where this was the case.'''

???? Hmm, can we think of societies where the cause of women’s rights are more advanced than gay rights ??? Let me think about thisss... Hmmmmmmmmmmm. How about the entire western world, who have all but secured equal rights under the law for women, but have only just begun to examine how laws affect LGBT+ people... Of course, sexism isn't solved completely, even in the legal arena, but they are literally a hundred years ahead of gay rights.

''' He was trying to wage war on the biggest kingdom; he was seriously going to begin oppressing his own citizens, all of whom would probably take issue with his out-of-the-blue hyperfocus on gay couples? What, had he been scapegoating them for years, laying the groundwork? '''

Rulers with supremacist and imperialist ambitions begin by fracturing, scapegoating and oppressing groups within their own country.. Yep, again this is quite true to life.. I don’t understand why this seems unrealistic to you, especially since you have noted the gestapo imagery... (Which I do agree is anachronistic and out of nowhere)).

''More to the point, if this shit was happening, there would be rioting! Civil Wars! ''

The gay 'community' has never existed as a unified mass ever in history before now. Homosexuality was a practice not an identity. People didn't think of themselves as gay, and didn't unite or think about their legal rights the way we do today... Even in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, where tiny tiny groups where coalescing, there was never any alliances big enough or confident enough to form militias or rally the general population.

'''we refuse to believe that this wouldn’t have been an issue EVERY SINGLE AVATAR would have dealt with until it was fully rectified.'''

Just.. What?? Why should we assume that ANY avatar even significantly recognized homosexuality, and even if they did, why do we assume its on their priority list? This is so anachronistic.. We may as well wonder why any Air Avatar didn't outlaw meat eating, or any lowborn avatar didn't invent marxism, or any female avatar would outlaw arranged marriages or male primogeniture. We seem to be assuming here that every avatar is a moral paragon and therefore is automatically a 2017 post-structuralist inter-sectional feminist, whose number 1 goal is to bring about liberal utopia, nad comes out of the box with enlightened understandings about homosexuality.

''we’re still left with the questions about feminist-reformer-Ozai, who went on to champion his own daughter (and a younger sibling to boot) as his successor, so…?'''

Well, Ozai himself was a younger sibling, remember, who thought he was more fit to rule because he was more psychopathic than his empathetic elder sibling, like Zuko and Azula.

''(Talking about Kyoshi) If there had somehow had been homophobia present on a large scale, we can’t imagine that Kyoshi, being queer herself, would have allowed this to continue. In fact, wouldn’t she have used the Dai Li to eradicate it, at least to the point where she could find acceptance?'''

It seems like although she practiced same sex relationships, she didn't add 'bisexual' to her identity. Quite probably the label didn't exist.. Like in real life, same sex relationships where seen as a sexual practice, not something you are or that you would publicly speak about, even if it wasn’t a super shameful secret. I dont think it implied that Kyoshi lived in shame.. She dosent seem the type to hung up on what people think of her at all. Kya just meant that people didn't acknowledge or understand that part of her.

''but we have to imagine she’d be able to have influenced the laws and protections to at least have “found acceptance” and effect change. '''

I feel like your perspective is thoroughly couched in a modern day 'coming out' narrative and advocacy and reform culture... That said, it does seem that Mike wrote this from a perspective that is also jarringly modern, so maybe its appropriate to match him in that.

''There literally can’t be large-scale and widespread homophobia in a place with such an ineffectual centralized government. ''

Literally what. Like.. Think of any ineffectual centralized government in the entire world... Okay, now tell me, is the society it presides over homophobic? The answer is always yes no matter where you think of..

''The issue is that with a (mostly) closeted Kya, it means the Avatar-verse is actually worse than our own world. She’s like a celebrity (secluded acolytes with Air Nation blinders on excluded). She’s the daughter of one of the most famous people who ever lived, ever. ''

Why is this surprising? I don’t understand.. Like in the last 30 years in the west is the only time and place in history where public figures could come out and be like 'Yo guys I'm exclusively sexually and romantically attracted to people of the same sex as me, kthnxbye'. And even then, it has diminished careers and tarnished reputations...

''We’re expected to believe that Aang would have let his daughter feel unsafe to be herself? We’re expected to believe that Katara—KATARA—would have let such an injustice stand?'''

Well, Kya did say Aang was nothing but supportive.. But, even if your parents are great, you are still a tiny minority in a big wide world.. Shes almost 2 generations removed from Korra and Asami... It just feels very true to life and poignant for Kya to have gone through these issues. We know she was a drifter for much of her life, and has commitment issues. Indecision and internal conflict are very congruent with unease about sexual identity.

''On a Watsonian level, the implication of this portrayal (where Korra and Asami need to proceed with caution) is that this homophobia exists on an institutionalized level,''

You are continually looking for 'institutionalized' homophobia to explain why Korra and Asami have qualms about coming out. I would like to differentiate institutionalized homophobia from cultural homophobia. It doesn’t seem that explicitly anti-gay laws of governmental bodies are at play here, it seems more... interpersonal.. They are just fretting that people would treat them differently, or look at them differently, that’s all. And that’s quite understandable, considering it seems then neither of them knew they could be attracted to women before this relationship. It has changed how they see themselves.

''.....Toph or Azula or Mai or Lin or Suyin or Kuvira can’t really exist, at least not without getting a ton of gendered feedback all the time.''

#stop #the #conflation #of #sexism #and #homophobia. They are not separate but they are not the same. Any society at any time can provide examples of individual women being prominent while the gays are still invisible or thrown under the buses.

'''Boy oh boy do we love thinking about our faves letting their daughter live in abject terror, and the shit Kya herself must have gone through!''

It is sad to think about... But.. the critical examination of Aang as a parent is kind of a running theme already isn’t it? He was supportive to her, and at some point people do become adults and their issues are their own, and cant be laid at the feet of their parents anymore.

''Especially given that Turf Wars suggests a worse world than our own with regards to homophobic feedback. You know…for kids!''

Does it? Lets recap how things went: girl tells parents she is dating another girl. Mom: cool dude.

Dad: cool man, be careful.

Korra: fuck you dad.

Korra: *tells lesbain aunt*.

Kya: samesies. it used to be bad but no bigs.

Korra: *to friends* guys im ghey as frick

Friends: cool dude.

That’s really the best scenario anyone could hope for today, isn't it?

'''The Kya conversation didn’t land for us, not just because it broke from the canon of the franchise, or because it began with a 60-year-old woman Korra and Asami are not particularly close to offering an uninvited remark about how beautiful of a couple they are (are we alone in thinking that this would be weird??), but because the entire premise of the conversation is a little cringe-worthy in our opinion.

First of all, Kya lives in the Southern Water Tribe with her mother. Yeah, she’s not glued there, and we know she’s helping with relief efforts at the evacuee camp, but our point is that a conscious decision was made to warp her to the United Republic, simply because “who else could offer gay advice but another gay?”''

Yeah same. It does feel that this was written by a heterosexual who doesnt quite understand what its like, though to be fair so does this article (burn).

'''we have to assume the rather affluent Hiroshi Sato got his daughter education that included these basic lessons.''

Idk, minorities being cut out of the history we teach to young people rings true to life tbh.

___

Sorry, didn’t mean to be overly critical. I think I’m biased toward liking Turf Wars because of my own personal experience rather than any actual merit it has. I look forward to reading Fandom Followings thoughts on part 2.

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