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Something I didn't initially spell out but which probably is pretty noticeable anyway - despite my initial suspicion, Noel is not lying about giving away lyrics from Lock All The Doors to Setting Sun. Setting Sun really is based on an early draft of the song.

But.

Noel talks often about this link between Lock All The Doors and Setting Sun. And we know that the same link exists between Lock All The Doors and My Sister Lover. But Noel has never, not once in the ten years since he released Lock All The Doors, ever mentioned giving away lyrics from it to My Sister Lover.

In general, Noel avoids talking about My Sister Lover. But I think in this case he especially avoids it, because he knows just how revealing that link between the songs is.

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I love when characters lie. you can learn so much about them even when they're not telling you. dissecting the lie is more fun than taking anything they might say at face value. figuring out their motivations... what they're trying to achieve... are they guilty? do they regret it? did they lie gleefully?

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hello i'm new to the supernatural fandom and you have been in my recommendeds for a while, reasons to ship wincest???

i thought for a long time about how to respond to this so imma link catherine tosenberger's excellent analysis of the first few seasons where "the most resistive aspect of Wincest fan fiction is that it gives the main characters a lasting happiness that the series eternally defers."

to begin with, there are a lot of people who will argue for the toxic codependency and i love them and also love it but the reason i've been here for well over a decade is because of the way that wincest offers you two paths: you can follow the path of those who write endless meta about how one or the other brother is abusive and how toxic it is and eventually brainwash yourself into being unable to ship it, or you can follow the path of love and light and perspective and recognize 1. these are fictional characters and b. there are no two characters in genre tv who are as devoted to each other as sam and dean. there is no plotline that follows through fifteen seasons of being obsessed with each other.

by choosing the incest pill, you grant yourself access to fifteen seasons of generally good tv ABOUT YOUR SHIP EXCLUSIVELY. sam and dean are the main characters and you will always know, opening up an episode, that they will be there, doing their weird-ass jealous obsessiveness, and you will never despair about not having them present, together, even if they're fighting or struggling or depressed. that is a very special thing!

now, beyond that, assuming you've watched the show, there's many reasons to cross the incest line. FIRSTLY, everyone involved was well aware of what they were doing. we have a few choice quotes i've collected below about their relationship that ramps up the intensity:

--

"Ultimately, they are pathologically dishonest with each other because John Winchester was pathologically elusive to them," consulting producer Ben Edlund says. "They learned that the truth is this dangerous thing, and that you shouldn't speak it. He even taught them to keep secrets from each other for strategic purposes." With all of the supernatural, apocalyptic, tragic drama woven into the show, Sam and Dean's relationship is rooted in human emotion. "When you look at the dysfunction that they show to each other, it comes directly from how they were brought up, and that's a kind of dysfunction that people in this world continue to face. 'Why didn't my dad tell me that he loved me yesterday?' We're just people sharing the same kind of thing," Edlund says.

--

"Why do you think Dean has had such a hard time forgiving Cas when he did forgive Sam for a similar betrayal?"

I think the easy answer is blood, I think the easy answer is family, even though if there was a family in this show it would include Bobby, it would include Cas, it would include these-- these-- kind of, broken war-torn heroes we've come to know, and you know, Bobby has that famous line, "family don't end with blood," but it is his brother, at the end of the day, that's the closest he has to a companion, and has had for a companion for many years, so I think with Cas there was always, "he's unnatural, he's an angel," and I think that for Dean, relating to someone like that, it's tricky, relating to monsters, relating to anything supernatural, his brother is flesh and blood, it's tangible, he can touch that.

--

Obviously the relationship between Sam and Dean is central to our show but we’ve been building this rift between Sam and Dean all season, so that led to the idea of having this young male character that sort of idolizes Dean and does all the cool stuff that Sam won’t do, and that’s Dean’s perfect mate.

(the thing sam won't do is literally swapping spit with him. tell me i'm lying)

--

in the hunt, page 37

--

Not all fans are content simply to attend conventions. Some of them want to take a hand in the story, and their fan fiction can explore areas mostly untouched on the show, like the latent homoerotic suggestiveness of the Winchesters’ intense relationship.

-THE NEW YORK TIMES

--

"eyefuck" became a well-known script shorthand because of how intense j2 looked at each other as sam and dean

--

it's a terrible life draft script:

Note B) They are supposed to be together

Note C) each been all alone in separate life finally found kindred spirit

--

in the hunt, page 158

--

i haven't included any eric kripke quotes because he has so much wrong with him that i don't want to enable it. this is a compliment. it is one of the highest i can give.

SO-- what these quotes tell us:

sam and dean are relatable because their relationship is intensely human

sam and dean have shared secrets they cannot voice to one another but that nonetheless make them inseparable

people have been writing motherfucking essays about sam and dean's homoeroticism since the show aired

within the mythology of the show, sam and dean are meant to be together above all other relationships

...oh, you need more? i didn't think i'd get this far. um... okay... look at them???

if you choose to walk this path you will find yourself crying and taking screenshots every time they look at each other or touch each other or hold each other and you will thank the lord in heaven that we were granted this intensely wild and beautiful homoerotic relationship back in 2005 and praise jesus that you can always return to their raw sexual chemistry-- "In fact, much like the early X-Files, the show is fueled past its failings almost entirely by the chemistry between the two principals, the boys who, like Mulder and Scully, generate enough sexual tension to power a small city" as quoted by whitney cox in 2006 in an article that otherwise fails to bring anything to the table, sorry if you love it for your meta but also literally just go read the catherine tosenberger essay

you still need more????? jesus, what have you shipped prior to this? well, go watch the pilot and enjoy the fact that the first scene these two have together they are wrestling on the floor (sexually) and getting all romantically silhouetted against this beautiful lighting

and then go watch a few fanvids like this or this and then watch the pilot and watch this and then read this post about how supernatural happily wields incest as a tool of horror and as comedy and then scroll through my entire family horror show tag to understand more and then watch this immaculate video that deals with the whole thing and think about how all these things were happening in 2005 and remember the fact that sam and dean are the main characters of the universe... and then maybe just watch the show and please do not become an annoying shit poster who just talks about how they hate it🙏

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https://dieworkwear.com/2022/08/26/how-to-develop-good-taste-pt-1/

From the comments "In my experience clothing on anyone looks best when it is done with confidence. We are all different shapes and sizes. I was really struck by your post on dressing well that included John Goodman in a faded t-shirt and jeans. He rocks it!"

Excellent advice, whatever gender or style one is looking for. Thank you

I'm a trans guy and Derek, I can tell you my wardrobe has improved a huge amount simply by reading your threads. The "dress for your body type" stuff never worked well for me; your threads about putting together an intentional look and for getting a good fit - that's 99% of the game.

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I think I may never be sad ever again. There is a statue entitled "Farewell to Orpheus" on my college campus. It's been there since 1968, created by a Prof. Frederic Littman that use to work at the university. It sits in the middle of a fountain, and the fountain is often full of litter. I have taken it upon myself to clean the litter out when I see it (the skimmers only come by once a week at max). But because of my style of dress, this means that bystanders see a twenty-something on their hands and knees at the edge of the fountain, sleeves rolled up, trying not to splash dirty water on their slacks while their briefcase and suit coat sit nearby. This is fine, usually. But today was Saturday Market, which means the twenty or so people in the area suddenly became hundreds. So, obviously, somebody stopped to ask what I was doing. "This," I gestured at the statue, "is Eurydice. She was the wife of Orpheus, the greatest storyteller in Greece. And this litter is disrespectful." Then, on a whim, I squinted up at them. "Do you know the story of Orpheus and Eurydice?" "No," they replied, shifting slightly to sit.

"Would you like to?"

"Sure!"

So I told them. I told them the story as I know it- and I've had a bit of practice. Orpheus, child of a wishing star, favorite of the messenger god, who had a hard-working, wonderful wife, Eurydice; his harp that could lull beasts to passivity, coax song from nymphs, and move mountains before him; and the men who, while he dreamed and composed, came to steal Eurydice away. I told of how she ran, and the water splashed up on my clothes. But I didn't care. I told of how the adder in the field bit her heel, and she died. I told of the Underworld- how Orpheus charmed the riverman, pacified Cerberus with a lullaby, and melted the hearts of the wise judges. I laughed as I remarked how lucky he was that it was winter- for Persephone was moved by his song where Hades was not. She convinced Hades to let Orpheus prove he was worthy of taking Eurydice. I tugged my coat back on, and said how Orpheus had to play and sing all the way out of the Underworld, without ever looking back to see if his beloved wife followed. And I told how, when he stopped for breath, he thought he heard her stumble and fall, and turned to help her up- but it was too late. I told the story four times after that, to four different groups, each larger than the last. And I must have cast a glance at the statue, something that said "I'm sorry, I miss you--" because when I finished my second to last retelling, a young boy piped up, perhaps seven or eight, and asked me a question that has made my day, and potentially my life: "Are you Orpheus?" I told the tale of the grieving bard so well, so convincingly, that in the eyes of a child I was telling not a story, but a memory. And while I laughed in the moment, with everyone else, I wept with gratitude and joy when I came home. This is more than I deserve, and I think I may never be sad again.

Here is the aforementioned statue, by the way.

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I took my little brother (autistic, mostly non verbal) out and he was using his voice keyboard to tell me something, and this little boy (maybe 4 or 5?) heard him and asked me "Is he a robot??" I tried to explain to him that no, he isn't a robot, he just communicates differently, but my darling brother was in the background max volume "I am robot I am robot I am robot I am robot"

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my sweetieee. also the chekovs gun cricket bat

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Noel Gallagher on Lock All The Doors, 14/10/2014

Fan: Do you ever write lyrics or a few chords and think "that sounds too Oasis" and throw it away or is nothing ever changed about your songwriting methods?

Noel: Well, when I was in Oasis I used to think that all the time... Well, no, no, no, no. And even if I did it wouldn’t stop me. If it was a great song it wouldn’t stop me from writing it. There’s a song on this record that taken me 23 years to finish.

Interviewer: Which was that?

Noel: Probably some of these know it’s called "Lock all the doors" and I gave a bit of it away to the Chemical Brothers in the 90s when we did certain song and I always meant to finish it off. And I could never… [pause]. Every time I would, you know, be writing songs, I’d think "I must try to finish that". I kept the chorus, but I could never find a way of getting the verse to tie it with this chorus. On one afternoon I was coming out the Tesco Metro from where I live in Maida Vale and I don’t know what it was, it just hit me, just coming around the corner just by the Boots… And it just came to me in a flash of inspiration. This song called "Lock all the doors" was never released by Oasis, it's a very old, it’s from 1993, but the chorus was so fucking brilliant that I never kind of gave up on it, so… Yes, I don’t really think things sounds too Oasis.

[source]

it always confuses me

he thought about this fucking song (the chorus especially) for 20+ years and ended up putting it on one of his solo albums

it's a little crazy i think 😁🔫

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dunno how to make animations but i did it anyway

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Candace Hicks, Notes On String Theory, 2022

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literally.

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Photos from an interview with photographer Harry Borden. Amazing work!!! (Will be future photo spam)

©️ Credit to photographer : Harry Borden

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I don’t quite remember if it was your blog i read this from or someone else, but since you guys are so knowledgeable you might know anyway. It was a post saying that Liam dedicated I’m Outta Time to Noel on stage before and that the song was originally called “I’m Outta Time, Noel”, is there a source for this? Or potentially even a clip from the gig where he dedicated it?

these are two separate incidents, actually! so, yknow, if anyone was in doubt about what that song was about, well...

you can hear/read about I'm Outta Time Noel here; it was a radio appearance in Nov 2008, which Noel was not present for.

and then there was Wembley in July 2009, a little more than a month before they broke up. Liam dedicates the song to our kid, pauses, and adds, "I'm fucking serious, Noel."

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good evening honorary scholar in oasis lore!! im pretty new and idk whether i just hot everything mixed up or it really happened buy did noel and liam retreat somewhere together after they had a huge fallout again? like left the city went somewhere secretive and stuff i think in the 90s? made up there and all that

who knows maybe it didn't happened at all and my mind just mixed everything together but still <3

The sequence of events can sound a little far-fetched if not an outright wishful fantasy, so I will keep strictly to the bare facts and quotes lol:

In the fall of '96,

(you remember '96, of course: Liam announcing he was getting married and Noel being pissed about it and then kissing him in front of 40,000 people, and then shortly thereafter they do the biggest concert of their lives, immediately after which Liam fails to show up sober for MTV Unplugged and then doesn't go to America with the band and then shortly after he does show up, Noel walks out of the tour and returns home -- that '96, yeah?)

"everyone" in the UK is freaking out that Oasis has finally broken up. No one from Oasis is really saying anything.

Liam flies back to the country... and is kidnapped from the airport:

(^ from Jill Furmanovsky, apologies for the janky photo)

He was brought to a country house where Noel was staying and the two of them holed up there for a while to patch things up.

Creation Records has announced that despite rumours, Oasis aren’t splitting. Noel and Liam Gallagher were at a secret location ‘spending time together and getting over jetlag’. The brothers have phoned their mum Peggy to assure her that Oasis were not about to split. ‘They phoned me at home to say they are both well and the band is not splitting up. They didn’t tell me where they were but they are both very happy. It was as though nothing was wrong.’ Astonishingly, they have been left alone. No one could find out where they went; after disembarking from their separate flights, Noel and Liam left London for a secret location where they met up and were still together as we went to press. Guigsy, Bonehead and Alan travelled to different destinations … Johnny Hopkins said: 'Noel and Liam got together to hang out. They're on good terms-yeah, totally. They're mad for it. Of course they're friends. They're staying together and getting over the jetlag, just chatting away.' – Melody Maker, September 1996

"No, me and our kid went to a country house. The pair of us stayed there and got pissed. Me and him weren’t arguing. We got slaughtered. And Marcus [Russell, manager] was saying, ‘Lets put a press release out’. Me and him [Noel] were taking the piss, going ‘Fuck it - if anyone asks where we are, tell ‘em we’re chasing sheep round the fucking country.’ But it would have started to get silly. So we put one together. -Liam, 1996

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The real Oasis iceberg is Lock All The Doors lore because yeah yeah, star shaped tambourine, and yeah the '92 version of the song evolved into My Sister Lover, but THEN you learn Noel has also said an entirely different song evolved out of that early first draft.

When I did the Chemical Brothers track, Setting Sun - "You're the devil in me" was the verse of this tune called Lock All The Doors, right? And for some reason, I'd had that song in the early, early days of Oasis. And the verse fit, and I thought, "It's alright, because I'll keep the chorus and I'll just write another verse. Anyway, it took me the best part of twenty years to write another verse. (Back The Way We Came - Track by Track)

And:

Noel Gallagher first began working on a song in the early 1990s. It appears on many lists in his notebooks from that period, which were auctioned at Christie's in 1998. "Half of it was used for the Chemical Brothers track," he recalled to Mojo magazine." I had that song knocking around from before we got signed. I thought I'll use that verse because it fits and I'll write another one. It took nearly 20 years." (Quoted on Songfacts)

Looking at early demos, though, Noel appears to be talking about two separate songs.

Lock All The Doors (with lyrics that match both My Sister Lover and NGHFB's Lock All The Doors)

Coming On Strong (with lyrics that match Setting Sun)

They're both from that early, pre-record deal period when Oasis was working with the Real People so at first I thought maybe Noel had "mixed them up" (ie, lied to avoid saying the words "My Sister Lover" in relation to a yearning heartbreak anthem which all but namechecks Liam in the first line). But! Then I listened to them back to back and, wow, even by Oasis's standards... that's the same song. My ear for music is not what it once was but it's hard NOT to hear it. It's particularly noticeable when you realise Coming On Strong barely has a chorus, but the gap between verse one and verse two fits Lock All The Doors' exactly.

It seems, then, Lock All The Doors has gone through not two but three sets of lyrics. And especially in conjunction with the other two versions, the original Coming On Strong lyrics are delightfully damning. The full set can be found on Genius lyrics, but my favourites are the opening lines:

You're the devil in me that I brought in from the cold Your body's still young and your mind is very old

There's a real undercurrent of illicit temptation here, and I love that second line, which also ends up in Half The World Away, taking on far more philosophical implications in that context. Actually, though, I prefer the version of the line that Noel gave to the Chemical Brothers in Setting Sun. "You said your body was young but your mind was very old". Because, well. It does sound like something Liam would say.

Like maybe in a brazen song full of darkly erotic overtures?

Take me when I'm young and true Was it me or was it you?

(...)

Take me 'cause I'm feeling old All my life I've been so cold Take me when I start to cry Take me, take me don't ask why

Noel and Liam's songs always feel like they're in conversation with each other, and it could be that goes all the way back to the beginning. Because if Liam's first hit was built around this theme, "Take me, take me, don't ask why," and the earliest version of Lock All The Doors echoes the refrain of, "You're coming on strong, you're coming on strong," then... yeah. It's easy to imagine one as a response to the other.

That's my take, at least. But even if you don't want to speculate about exactly what the Coming On Strong lyrics mean, the fact that Noel wrote at least three versions of this song suggests that it was important to him. He was trying to get it right. Perhaps, too, he was trying to walk back lyrics that felt too revealing; he's known to do that, as well. And on the other hand, since Setting Sun and the Coming On Strong demo started their life as part of Lock All The Doors... it's not so far-fetched to think they might be about Liam.