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[rey-mono]

Come join us!!

Looking for a place to learn more about Journey to the West? Looking for a cozy spot to share your thoughts and ideas on characters and different retellings of the myth? Looking for a place to find different versions of the journey you love and on upcoming new media?

Join our JTTW server!

This server was created to provide a safe place for enjoyers of the series to meet, share their work, enjoy each other's company, join in various events as well as discuss and view various versions you likely haven’t even seen before! More variants are being discovered each and every day and currently we have well over 200 links to various movies, shows, comics, and books! Wanna come and see what curiosities lie inside? 

Well then, come on in!

[rey-mono]

There's a tweet that's gone viral where a person laments realizing that Star Wars "ripped off" Dune, and how learning all the elements Star Wars took from its inspiration tainted it. And I think it shows how poisonous the emphasis on originality in art can be. Because yes, it's wonderful when art makes something new, but it's also wonderful seeing how art plays on what came before, and the conversations it has with its predecessors.

There's going to be a lot of people talking about how much of an impact Goku from Dragon Ball Z has made on fiction in the wake of Akira Toriyama's recent passing, and all the characters who were inspired by him and his story. But Goku himself is derivative - he's inspired by the Monkey King from Journey to the West, one of the first novels ever written. He's far from the first character inspired by the Monkey King, either, and also far from the last.

None of this makes Goku's impact any less than it is. None of this decreases how Goku's story has inspired countless imitators. Just as Toriyama created a new icon from imitating what he loved about Journey to the West, so did Toriyama inspire countless artists to make their own iconic works with his take on the Monkey King's archetype. Goku is, in many ways, the heir to a legacy that spans back to the 16th century, and likely beyond - because I doubt the original Monkey King was formed in a vacuum.

We're taught to think that originality and imitation are opposites that cannot coexist, but they're not mutually exclusive. One can follow in another's footsteps and still take a new journey with its own unique twists and turns. The great works of art are not spawned in the absence of inspiration - they are in conversation with what came before and what will come after.

[rey-mono]

Tumblr is doing some stupid AI shit so go to blog settings > Visibility > Prevent third-party sharing.

[rey-mono]

The Inconsistency of Nezha's Age, a Short Introduction.

Put very bluntly, Nezha’s age varies greatly depending on which story you’re reading and who’s retold it. He is not always a child or an adult depending on retelling, though my intention here is to highlight the sheer variety available first and foremost - and perhaps shine a light on the Indian dieties which may have influenced him. If these varied images are unwanted, please keep scrolling.

I happened to stumble upon a timeline error where Nezha’s brother Muzha is described to be using martial arts weapons referred to as “Hooks of Wu” which were specific to the 1800s, quite a long time after Canonization of the Gods was published, but also originating from a time period where numerous varied editions of that story were in circulation. Upwards of twenty different versions exclusive to the 19th century, actually.

The problem arises that Canonization of the Gods is meant to be occurring during the Zhou Shang conflict, that I will generously assume to be in 1045BCE, centuries before the Hooks of Wu would actually exist. It’s completely possible that the version Gu Zhizhong translated was one of these later editions as is makes no chronological sense for Muzha to have those kinds of weapons to begin with. So I have been on somewhat of a rabbit chase trying to pin down the edition Gu Zhizhong used.

Bearing such errors in mind, it’s easy to see where the confusion of Nezha’s age can come from. Before his origin story was integrated within Canonization of the Gods he would be roughly three to seven days old when his conflict with Ao Guang and the Lady Rock Demoness would occur - whereas within Canonization of the Gods he’s actually 6 or 7 years old.

Outside of that, a definitive age isn’t actually provided. Genuinely, within the scope of Chinese folklore and mythos it’s very rare to assign someone an exact age - which I do believe contributed heavily to the known discourse surrounding Nezha’s age to begin with.

He was imported as an adult from India, a child form not seeming to exist for a while until stories of Krsna were integrated to how the Chinese envisioned Nalakubara. Krsna, being an infantile disguise for the notorious Vishnu, also displays supernatural human strength and is actually successful in killing his father figure (1) — unlike Nezha.

As children, both Krsna and Nezha are able to wield heavenly bows and subjugate water spirits (2) while also being known to be dragon tamers (3). The inclusion of these stories to Nezha predates the sculpting of the Quanzhou Pagoda’s (which have been discussed briefly here) and are arguably the earliest evidence of Nezha being a dragon tamer.

Speculatively a child god combination of both Nalakubara and Krsna named Nana is likely where a majority of Nezha’s child attributes come from, based in the Scripture of the Supreme Secrets of Nana Deva - which would see translations within China during the Northern Song period of 960AD-1127AD. Nana would be described thus:

At that time there was a Deva called Nana. His appearance was exceptionally handsome, and his face beamed with a gentle smile. He was holding the sun, the moon, and various weapons. His numerous treasures and abundant jewelry shone more brightly than the sun and the moon. He made himself a luoye robe (4) from the dragons Nanda and Upananda, and a belt from the dragon Taksaka (5). He possessed the same strength as Narayana (i.e. Visnu). He too came to the assembly and sat down facing the Buddha … At that time the Buddha emanated great light from his dharma body of meditation. The light covered the entire Buddha Universe, reaching all the great evil yaksas, the various types of raksasas and pisacas (6) and all the evil dragons as far as the heavenly constellations. When the Buddhas light shone upon them they all awoke to the truth. The Buddhas light returned to him and, after encircling him three times, entered his head. It then reissued in seven colors from his brow, entering Nana-Deva’s head. When the Buddha light penetrated his head, Nana Deva displayed an enormous body like Mt. Sumeru. His facial expression alternated between terrifying anger and a broad smile. He had a thousand arms, and he was holding a skull (7) and numerous weapons. He was handsomely adorned with a tiger skin robe and skulls. [Mightily Strong] He emanated blazing light and terrifying strength. When Nana Deva displayed this divine body, the great earth shook, and all who beheld him were terrified.

Both Nana and Nezha share the same residence of Vaisravana’s palace, are known dragon tamers, and both were known to use belts. The Supreme Secrets of Nana Deva predate all known connections between Nezha and dragons, perhaps lending to Nezha many more elements than initially believed.

Though without concrete evidence stating one way or another, I can only present this information speculatively - especially as it seems difficult for some to understand that Nezha does enjoy a known adult and child form. This answer has already become quite long, so if there’s still confusion regarding this please feel free to ask for more details.

Bibliography:

(1) Goldman, “Fathers, Sons and Gurus,” pp.350, 364; Masson, “Childhood of Krsna”; Ramanujan, “The Indian ‘Oedipus’”; Silk, Riven by Lust, pp. 164-170.

(2) Harley, “Krishna’s Cosmic Victories”; Matchett, “Taming of Kaliya”.

(3) It’s worth comparing Matchett’s “Taming of Kaliya” p.116 with Canonization of the Gods 12.103. Nezha is five days old within the Ming era Sanjiao yuanliu shengdi fozu sou shen daquan, p. 326.

(4) Luoye is the Chinese term for a garment Indian men tied under the armpit, leaving their right shoulder bare. See Xuanzang, Da Tang Xiyu ji, T. 2087, 51: 876b, and Li Rongxi’s translation, Great Tang Dynasty Record, p.53.

(5) Nanda, Upananda, and Taksaka appear in various Buddhist lists of the eight dragon kings; see Foguang da cidian, pp. 6378,6405.

(6) The rakasas and pisacas are two types of Hindu ogres, who Buddhists demonology incorporated. Both types feed on human flesh. See Foguang da cidian, pp6673-6674 and 3851; Monier-Williams, A Sanskrit-English dictionary, pp. 871 and 628; and Strickman’s survey of Buddhist demonology in his Chinese Magical Medicine, pp. 62-68.

(7) Geboluo appears frequently within the contemporaneous Chinese translation of the Hevajra Tantra (Foshuo dabeikong zhi jin’guang dajiaowang yigui jing), no. 892 volume 18: 587-601.

(8) Zuishang mimi Nana tian jing, no. 1288, 21:358b-c. hi

[rey-mono]

I hope this question doesn't bother you, I only know the 1999 Lotus Lantern movie (if anyone wants to see it, it's subtitled in English on yt) but I wanted to ask, are there other accessible Lotus Lantern media? I think I only know two versions of the story and the TV show.

Hello! I've been looking for a free to access PDF of the story itself, but this website has a very solid translation and I have used a few of their translations of Canonization of the Gods sometimes. I can personally verify it's validity.

https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/chtales/story011.html

I also located a TV series under the same name. There aren't subtitles available though.

This also falls into Chinese Opera, first popularized during the Tang Dynasty. I have added links to both part one and two on Youtube. I hope this is what you've been looking for, despite lacking translations.

[rey-mono]

From what I understand, your advice is that we shouldn't stick to just one version of a story or consider it the true version. And that a story has several versions. And these versions do not make one less than the other. Like, we can choose one version of the story as long as we understand that there are more versions.

Hello!

Yes this is precisely it. It’s very easy to assume that one way a story is told is the only valid version, but it also neglects how it historically was shared and retold - regardless of if deities are involved. Of course people are allowed to express favoritism, myself having moved from Wuhan, I prefer Wuhanese storytelling.

Did you know there’s roughly 360 different types of regional Chinese Opera that coexist? And with such a large variation in a specific area of performing arts, there’s bound to be more variation in nearly anything else.

Myself and the study of Nezha/Nalakubara has led me down many many different rabbit holes into how he was spread across east and southeast Asia. He appears in India, China, Taiwan, Macau, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Kazakhstan, Tibet, and very likely many other places I have yet to know. It would be very ignorant of me to assume the Chinese Daoist method of worship to be the only acceptable kind - and downright shameful to dismiss how other countries worship him.

It’s a lengthy answer, but I hope I was able to convey my feelings and personal thoughts properly.

[rey-mono]

Hi hi, it seems like a few people ran to you due to chaos happening in LMK fandom, (nothing new) but I do have a question if you do not mind answering. Do you have any research links that not closely related to JTTW/FSYY?

People only provide JTTW/FSYY as if it’s ‘end to all meets’. But there’s so much more than that.

It doesn’t surprise me that people are coming to me to discuss those issues, but I truthfully have no interest in LMK or the fandom. It became very clear to me that people depend heavily on personal headcanon or, as you said, JTTW and FSYY holding a lot of water they really can’t. I’ve said it before but both stories were written by two different people in different time periods (the Ming and the Qing Dynasty respectively).

If you’re looking for other literature that concerns the same pantheon (assuming it’s the Daoist pantheon you’re interested in) and not solely Sun Wukong or Nezha, I can happily recommend reading Mountains and Seas Classics, The Lotus Lantern, The Emergence of the Universe as numerous gods exist once the universe does (the theory is split between the universe being born from a cosmic egg or a divine corpse), Pangu Born From the Cosmic Egg, the Separation of Heaven and Earth, Nüwa Repairing the Broken Sky, Shooting Down the Surplus Suns, and many other stories, deities, and even how China saw the Heavens and how the deities developed alongside the idea of the Heavens influencing the dynastic cycle.

I’m more than happy to discuss such myths if requested, as well as describe the many many deities that get “sidelined” because of how JTTW and FSYY were written and then held on the pedestal of the “be all end all”. The scope of when these stories were told and shared is massive and incredibly fluid, so numerous versions of these stories (and even JTTW and FSYY) exist. Daoism did not exist within a vacuum, and the many ethnic groups had their own unique identities in how these stories were retold.

Being so rigid and unwilling to accept different interpretations will truly only hurt you in the long run.

[rey-mono]

Colored up the doodle of Mama and Wukong in the rain.

Was meant to just be flat colors but then oops-

[rey-mono]

Took an interest in Sun Wukong lately, decided to try my hand at chara designing him !

I'm quite happy about the face sheet, I don't usually do these, and while they're not amazing, I'm happy to have at least tried to do it :)

(The law of equivalent exchange states that I must sacrifice the turnaround in exchange, though :>)

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Please don't use or repost my art without permission or tagging me 🙏 reblogging is okay :D !

[rey-mono]

@xxtheturtlefromhellxx ‘s Au has captured me- the SHIFU TUDI relationship means so much to me SPECIFICALLY!!! LOOK AT THEM🥺🥺😭😭😭💕💕💥💥💕✨✨✨

Their wonderful writing that inspired the brainrot:

[rey-mono]

悟空，休得无礼

[rey-mono]

I have gotten @sunny-days-and-warm-mournings swk as a swk exchange game from the jttw discord!

I really did enjoy draw their boy several times up to this final piece :D

[rey-mono]

He actually did wrote a poem(there’s several poems throughout JTTW)

And this one is specifically about erlang shen

I want the show to show that the wukong also does poetry and poems,like how they did with macaque,like imagination that in the show,it would be great

[rey-mono]

We had a fun game in JTTW discord where each artist drew the other's version of their Sun Wukong! I got @seaweedoverlord's Wukong! It was super fun to draw this beautiful boy! ✨ I hope I gave justice to your son 🥺

[rey-mono]

i think LMK Sun Wukong's flashback outfit paying homage to 1961 Havoc in Heaven SWK is very nice, but given what I've heard about LMK's charcterization for SWK, it also kinda feels like it misses the point as to why 1961 looked like that

[rey-mono]

i always find it baffling when people get confused by the constantly shifting relationships between deities and immortals in JttW.

"oh why is suddenly Wukong in friendly terms with people he beat up?" first of all, it's been 500 years at least, and he's being vouched for by a boddhisatva. secondly, why would you choose to remain antagonistic with such a powerful being when diplomacy is now open to you?

and thirdly, have you never gotten into a spat with someone and then made up and then fought again and made up, and so on? relationships evolve and get better or worse as time rolls ever onward, that's just the nature of... the world? especially when some of those deities are Daoist and, being in tune with the flow of the universe is the basis of the whole religion.

plus it's not like deities aren't constantly terrified of the guy cus they are well aware of what he can do and his fickle temper.

[rey-mono]

"I will remind all of you why I am Sun Wukong! The Great Sage Equal of Heaven!"

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(If the quality is shit then please click it!)