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that's my understanding too although i respect headcanons like Amber Gray's who says it was always consensual but no it isn't a canonical retcon. i love Chant II as well particularly the "we set it spinning hand in hand" and "it was love that spun the world" lines. it actually hit me how sketchy the Bitter Wine verse can sound because i'm training to play Persephone and i was rehearsing it in my apartment where everyone can hear me and i was like "whoa this could be triggering for people. especially if they know the myth it's based on." i ran into similar issues rehearsing Poor Thing from Sweeney Todd. i had to practice it in my car lol.

i think some people are scared to acknowledge that Hades might have assaulted anyone because they're used to treating fictional sex criminals as completely irredeemable monsters. in part this is due to the sheer amount of people in fandom who have that type of trauma (as opposed to, like, former victims of unpaid hard labor or attempted murder or whatnot) and then, for people without that trauma, a fear of being interpreted as cosigning or romanticizing that kind of abuse. but my most recent fandom before this was Game of Thrones where rape and abduction are omnipresent in the narrative so maybe I'm dulled to it. ultimately it gives "I can excuse slavery, but I draw the line at sexual coercion" which is kinda silly imo. i love to see an abuser figure their shit out and stop it and leave their victims alone IF they want to be which it doesn't seem like Persephone does. and i love to see a narrative that portrays that process, because realistically all those people doing that in the real world today are not just gonna go die in a hole. all the men manipulating their wives into sex through threatening affairs or using wealth to motivate women who would otherwise be uninterested are not going to go to jail. best case scenario someone drags them to something like Hadestown and they watch it and think "oh shit that's me."

regarding your last point we do hear Orpheus singing about Hades' fear that Persephone will choose to never come back, but he doesn't necessarily understand the full extent of the lore. there's no reference to the pomegranate seeds (other than "spit it out while you still have time" kinda) or Demeter or Zeus. I also find it interesting that originally the myth was that she ate 4 pomegranate seeds and stayed down there for 4 months, which is more reflective of the climate in Greece but later shifted to 6 (possibly during Europe's medieval mini ice age?). maybe Mr. Hades is trying to shift it to 8 over time.

thinking about how interesting it is that people think hadestown plays off or retcons that persephone was abducted by hades when the man literally sings about how he keeps her in a "gilded cage" and hangs a "chain around her throat" and "shackle[s] her from wrist to wrist". like what did YOU think he means by that because to me it's pretty clear that she's being kept against her will.

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I’m gonna hold you forever, the wind will never change on us.

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Lim Eung-sik. Beach Still Life, 1946.

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IG @ Hirokolele’s Auntie Nani wears beautiful flowers Dendrobium Top , Protea flower bottom

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they had no reason to be serving challengers realness for hsm promo 😭

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Sympathetic Magic, Janis Miltenberger

Flameworked glass, 30 x 19 x 11

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original url http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/7659/

last modified 2009-04-25 22:28:59

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I was just thinking about this the other night. I've seen so many people handwringing about Hades sexually coercing Eurydice (or pretending they were playing Candy Crush for two hours) even though he "gets redeemed" and it's like dude. it's Hades. the guy that famously kidnapped and "married" his barely legal neice. he's like the second most famous mythological rapist out there after Zeus The Greek God Of Rape himself. but then I remember the Hadesephone myth has been so defanged through things like Lore Olympus, romance novels and fanmixes that people project enthusiastic consent onto Persephone's side of the Htown lore. and then add in all the "at least Hades and Persephone never cheated on each other uwu" shit which isn't even true in the Orphic mythological canon.

and it's because the Epics are so beautiful and describe such a romantic scenario but the thing is, the Epics don't ever describe Persephone's experience, only Hades' feelings and decisions. because they're written by Orpheus, who is a man steeped in his own privilege in the same way Hades is but less malicious and with less power, who starts the story asking a complete stranger in his workplace to come home with him because he thought she was pretty and decided to be the main character about it. she even makes him a low-stakes trade ("you wanna take me home? then bring spring back so I can get something to eat sing the song") and he jumps at the chance.

and the musical is a process of him and Hades unlearning this privilege to an extent, learning to listen to the stated needs of the women in their lives instead of inferring what they actually want. but imo neither of them complete the unlearning. Hades sets up a test that hinges Eurydice's fate on her husband's competence as if she is a prize to be won or lost through skill, further objectifying her, and I think Anaïs Mitchell was very aware of this fact as she adapted the story, it's such a brilliant deconstruction of patriarchy and how capitalism takes it and enables it. and Orpheus plays right into this by assuming it's a trap instead of trusting his wife and letting Hades' comments about women choosing wealth and security live rent-free in his head ("why would she follow me into the cold and dark again?" as if Eurydice has not made it abundantly clear that she wants to go back with him after Epic III).

now I'm fairly sure the shackles and chain are metaphorical because he describes them as being made of gold (i.e. keep her interested via access to wealth and material experiences) but we do see what happens when she refuses to praise his work and fulfill his desire for affection, he goes and finds another woman to strongarm into meeting his desires - Persephone has the means to meet her own basic needs, as a goddess, but Eurydice does not - which shows how these two things aren't really necessarily that different in a poverty-striken world. and the moral weight of this on Persephone is manipulative and is absolutely intentional, but it also doesn't work to make her more affectionate. the only thing that does is Hades demonstrating vulnerability and leniency.

I think another reason people assume the relationship was consensual was the various cut Persephone verses from Chant II which do confirm that Persephone had romantic and affectionate feelings for Hades at some point. however in the original Greek myths this is also depicted as something that developed post-kidnapping, and does not inherently conflict with an initial lack of consent. even the "bitter wine" version, the one that offers the most concrete description of Persephone's own experience, describes pity sex at best:

love was when he came to me / begging on his bended knee / to please have pity on his heart / and let him lay me in the dirt / I felt his arms around me then / we didn’t need a wedding bed / dark seeds scattered on the ground / the wild birds flying around / that’s when I became his wife / but that was in another life

like she doesn't even say she said yes to his begging!!! I know it's better than 90% of what went on the old myths, but still. and also, consent then ≠ consent now. she is CLEARLY unhappy to be returning to Hadestown year after year and just the fact that he is picking her up before he's supposed to is a fundamental violation of her consent and we don't know what would happen if she straight-up refuses to go. I actually wish this was explored more because so much of the plot hinges on it - is she going reluctantly but willingly, or is she literally bound by magic to return when he decides it?

thinking about how interesting it is that people think hadestown plays off or retcons that persephone was abducted by hades when the man literally sings about how he keeps her in a "gilded cage" and hangs a "chain around her throat" and "shackle[s] her from wrist to wrist". like what did YOU think he means by that because to me it's pretty clear that she's being kept against her will.

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vampire persephone. vampsephone?

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COWBOY ★ CARTER ★ TOUR Paris - Night 1