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but i have been thinking. you know, i dont think till saying he loves ivan would fix it. ivan has. so many issues. and i think it can be tempting to assume till telling him he loved him or asking him out or whatever would just, fix them. i dont think it would? ivan is...to me, ashamed of how he feels about till. he doesnt even think he can be loved. i imagine, if till did say he loved him, ivan wouldnt take it well. like, they could even start dating, and ivan wouldnt take it well! the whole time itd be fuck what did i do, why does he think he loves me, when is this going to fall apart?

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need him so bad

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sorry for making my icon the clone baby do you still love me

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hey guys. imagine being one of those clone babies. do they know? that theyre clones? do they know who theyre clones of or what those people did?

these kids will never outrun the legacies of a bunch of dead people and everyone will treat them like a bunch of ghosts.

that fucking sucks

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also are people actually saying that thing about the arm movement and till in that scene from karma. guys

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im talking about the ivantill kiss again here we go.

ive always wondered why ivan decided to kiss till. i think theres a million and a half reasons but the one im focusing on here is, i dont think it read that much differently to ivan than anything else he's done. no no seriously let me explain myself. it was a bigger action, yes. it meant more to him because it was an explicit (and failed, and hurtful, yes) attempt to show till his love for him. because it was breaking the aliens (and other humans!) perception of him. but ivan knew it would hurt. im sure he knew that would hurt till.

but he did it anyway. why?

not because ivan wants to hurt till, or doesnt care if he does, but because he believes he's destined to.

ivan hates himself. loathes himself. he hides every truth about himself because he thinks (and has been told) its not good enough. even down to his smile, his hair, his demeanour, who he is. ivan is always trying to provoke till, to get his attention. because he truly thinks thats the only way to do so.

ivan was comfortable kissing till, knowing how it'd hurt him, because he didnt think he had any other options but a last-ditch effort to communicate his feelings as he is throwing his life away.

i think, maybe, ivan sees every interaction with till - every stare, every breath near him, every conversation, every fight - was disgusting, selfish, that his desire to continue being with till was shameful.

so i dont think the kiss is thar much different from how ivan views the rest of his actions. its not the exact same by virtue of circumstance and what a kiss means to him, but he already thinks everything he does is hurting till and that he is doomed to hurt him.

seeing himself as doomed to hurt him is what ultimately leads him to do so.

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"Till never looked at Ivan."

WRONG!!!

In fact, Till was the one who looked first!

It's all the way back in round 6. There is a flashback of what I assume is before either of them were adopted and put in ANAKT. Till is the first to look. Ivan then looked back. This is one of the few times where they both notice each other's gaze.

It's not that Till didn't look, it's that when he did, Ivan never seemed to catch it.

The meteor shower scene is a great example of this.

When Till stops to reconsider their escape, he has an obvious expression of guilt.

But by the time Ivan turns around...

Till is already running back. Ivan did not get a chance to see his hesitance. He did not turn around in time to see the guilt.

Whenever Ivan does happen to meet his gaze, it's only during moments of frustration.

It is conveniently never when Till is looking at him with fear, happiness, guilt, etc.

You know, any emotion that would indicate to Ivan that Till cared or worried about him.

Ah. Misunderstanding at it's finest.

Seriously though, Till has been seen looking at Ivan multiple times.

Till is looking directly at him in this image.

And of course, Ivan has his eyes closed.

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practice ivans

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The main reason I don’t like the interpretations of “Ivan was the only character that wasn’t loved” and “Till never looked at Ivan,” besides from it just being untrue given what we’ve seen from the series and people taking a character who has a very unreliable perspective at face value, is because I feel it takes agency or responsibility away from Ivan.

Obviously the human characters have little autonomy over their own lives due to the Segyein, but where they do have control is in their interpersonal lives amongst each other. We know that Ivan has trouble sometimes when it comes to social cues (the Cheer Up comic being the best example) and that he masks and has generally low self-worth, but while those things are very important to keep in mind when examining his character, it's also equally important to remember that those aspects are what help us to understand his actions, not excuse them. When Ivan was stealing Till’s things and fighting him, he did so deliberately so that he could have Till’s attention. Was the way he acted because he has trouble expressing his emotions and what he wants from Till? Yes. Did he know that he would upset or annoy Till by doing those things? Also, yes.

(source)

Focusing on him having trouble expressing himself and what he wants, I think it’s very unfair to pin most of the blame for how his relationships went on other people because Ivan doesn’t seemingly ever make a good effort to open up! I’ve talked about it here, but Ivan is so rooted in his belief that he’ll be rejected if he shows who he really is that he doesn’t form the deeper bonds he desires. The closest we’ve seen to him opening up is what he allows Till and Sua to see of him.

(source)

I view Ivan’s character as a warning of what may happen if you don't let yourself open up to people. Ivan is incredibly stubborn and scared to the point that even if he sees definitive proof that others like him as a person, he doesn’t believe it or even allow himself the hope of believing it. But you gotta let yourself have that hope and power through your fear if you want the chance to build the kind of relationships you want in your life.

Ivan is a sad character, yes, but his interpersonal tragedy of feeling alone in his relationships wasn’t unavoidable. It could have gone better if he had allowed himself the chance. You have to allow yourself the chance.

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Baby slum ivan.. uwaa

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no yeah every time im like "oh i think i dont really have much more to say about ivan" i realize he is related to yet another lifelong obbsession of mine

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well actually i would like to talk about ivan and the ocean.

the sea and drowning are both brought up in lyrics to songs ivan sings and i didnt initially think much of it. BUT. at some point the marine biology lover in me crawled back out to start screaming about it.

a lot of people would say they love the ocean but when you inquire further you realize theyre talking about the fun part you can swim in, the part we know about, the part you see when you go to the beach. but what about the deep ocean? the place we cant reach? what about the life there? fear. disgust. not always obviously humanity as a whole is going to have varied opinions. but i cannot tell you the amount of times ive seen deep sea discoveries regarded not with interest or fascination or love but just discomfort.

but anyway uh back to ivan

i was thinking about suas association with the snow and till with falling stars and wondering about the other characters. i thought itd be neat if everyone was associated with some part of the universe, you know? and ivan is my favourite so of course i focused on him first and. well.

he is a lot like the ocean, isnt he? in universe at least, people (esp. aliens) love him for what he shows them, even if what he shows them is shallow and meaningless - its fun, its cute, its pretty. but its less than a fraction of who ivan is. if one were to treat that as his whole self they wouldnt know much of anything about him. that isnt representative of ivan at all.

ivan expects people to hate him if he shows them anything more, anything real. it's why he hides from till so much - yes, ivan interacts with till differently but thats just as much of a persona as anything else. he's still holding till at arms length, still not letting him in. because he's sure if till sees how "twisted" he is, he'll hate him (even more). and i doubt that's unfounded, honestly! not in that i think ivans "true self" or however you'd call that is gross and bad and wrong and should be hated, but in that, im sure he's received harsh punishment and social rejection from it before. his self-hatred isnt completely arbitrary, we're social creatures and social rejection fucks a kid up.

it reminds me of how, when you talk about the ocean, most people have no experience with the deeper parts of it and its kinda difficult to study or try to understand - almost like it doesn't want us to understand it! and many people are afraid of it or think its gross because lf that. but theres nothing wrong with the ocean, is there? there are people who love the deep ocean and the life within it, and they're not particularly difficult to find if you go looking.

what im trying to say is, there are people who would love ivan but he's been faced with enough pain he thinks no one will. and, that he reminds me of the ocean.

and also that for some reason ivan is tangentially related to all my special interests. what is up with that

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ok ill write a pinned post this time. sigh. dramatic sigh.

hi my name is whimsy ☆ and uh my main blog isnt searchable! wo i made a sideblog from which to post about alien stage. because fun. if you want my main blog feel free to ask :D

i mostly like ivan. completely obbsessed with ivan. its a little sickening. but i swear i talk about other things. they just injected all my special interets into this one guy (and that is not a joke).

oh ps i had to remake this blog once i think tumblr hates me