#I really just don't care about the love triangle anymore. I already had to deal with like two/three love triangles this year

[hadesisqueer]

Okay, so I finished JWCT and-- it was a great season.

Ben was awesome this season. All the mentions to how much he'd grown were funny, and the Big Ben joke was as well. I really liked him and his moments with Darius and Yaz, most of all with Yaz; I always enjoyed their friendship, and I loved how they talked about their feelings again. Also-- he has a girlfriend? A girlfriend?

Kenji's moments confronting his father and not letting himself be manipulated again were among my favorites this season. His conflict with Darius and their brotherly moments were cool to watch. Darius' whole arc, his grief and guilt over Brooklynn's supposed death was among my favorite arcs this season.

Yaz and Sammy were awesome in general, both individually and as a couple. Yaz is my favorite character, and I loved her arc. As someone with PTSD myself, I am very pleased with how the show didn't shy away from it and fully saying "PTSD". Personally, I am pretty happy that Yaz's PTSD was handled so realistically and with such care. Sammy was a badass this season, and her feelings and anxiety while dealing with Yaz apparently pulling away, her grief over Brooklynn's supposed death and the fact that her parents for some reason don't talk to her were handled realistically. I specifically wanna know what happened between her and her parents, because she adored her family and her family adored her as well back in CC; I really wonder what the conflict is that they're not talking anymore. Yasammy as a couple is awesome as well, as I said: their conflict is handled very well and you can understand both sides. The resolution was great and their moments in general were awesome. They're still easily the best couple of this show (not that it had a lot of competition), and probably one of the best in animated media in general. I love them.

Brooklynn being alive at the end? I think everyone called it, lmao. My girl is far too cool to just die, sorry, she can't die. I can't wait to see the others find out and their reunion.

Now, my thoughts about the other ships this season-- Brookenji and Dinostar lmao? I cheered when I found out Brookenji broke up; I was never a fan of the couple, sorry, it was TOO forced. Now, the whole Dinostar thing-- I was a bit suspicious of the way Darius was acting about Brooklynn and all, but I didn't think they were actually gonna have him admit he was in love with her, so that took me by surprise. I know they said it was unrequited, but yeah I don't buy that. I'm predicting it: it will turn out that it's not unrequited, that Brooklynn actually has feelings for him and they're going to pull a love triangle between her, Darius and Kenji. Pfff, it's like I'm seeing it. I'm really not a fan of love triangles tbh. But if it happens (and it's probably gonna happen, I can see it coming), I hope it ends up with Dinostar endgame instead of Brookenji. Like I already said, I really don't like Brookenji. And I've always been more neutral with Dinostar (and Benrius; I like, them too but don't pay them that much mind). I liked Dinostar platonically a lot, and while I didn't care much of it, I also never minded the idea of them becoming a couple. In fact, Brookenji took me by surprise while watching the show because to me if they were gonna pair Brooklynn with someone, I always thought it'd be Darius rather than Kenji, because I thought they made more sense. So, yeah, if it's Brookenji or Dinostar, Dinostar all the way for me lmao. Still not looking forward to the love triangle if it happens lol.

Also, Bumpy being a mom. Fave moment of the season.

Anyway, I need a second season. Like, right now.

[makeyouminemp3]

I don't know if it'll actually happen, but I do hope that after the play is over and so is camp, that ej does understand gina once all of this is done and off of his shoulders and just agrees that things may have not would work out in the long run. they were great in season 2, but sometimes good things just aren't always meant to last, and it was gina's first relationship and it wasn't perfect, not all relationships are, and that's fine. maybe, he'll come to realize that he just isn't ready for a relationship when he just should focus on himself and what he wants for his future. honestly, these kids shouldn't be in relationships if they are not emotionally ready for it, cause stuff like this will blow up in their face

ej did deserve to hear what gina said and hopefully it will be some type of wake up call. if not, then I don't know at this point. they're all young and make stupid decisions and learn to grow from it eventually because everyone is flawed. no one on this show is perfect and we can't expect them to be

[pangzi]

Salty Ask List, 19.

What is the one thing you hate most about the fandom? go offfffff

Rin i love youuuuuu!!!

The thing I hate most about the fandom is easily how people treat Pangzi. I don't even know where to start explaining this to be fucking honest! There's SO. MUCH. I could write a whole essay on this. I’ve mentioned most of this before too but things haven’t really gotten better so...

The thing annoying me the most lately is the constant "*insert pangzi ship*'s friendship is sooo important to me" posts and remarks. Like no it isn't, you don't give a fuck about friendship you just don't ship them because you don't think Pangzi is shippable but cannot admit that? I literally see nobody mention friendship ever unless it's about a Pangzi ship? Everyone here will ship every single young skinny pretty character with any other character they just take a breath around, but Pangzi can quite literally confess his love to someone, kiss them, marry them and have sex with them On Screen and this entire fandom would still go: "their friendship is So Important to me :( just two Very Good Friends, only friendship going on here" besides why are you all out here pretending you can't have a good friendship with your significant other what the hell. Isn't it the dream to date your best friend?? I-... Like yeah Pangzi has very important and significant friendships and relationships but it's getting VERY transparent when the only time everyone goes 'FRIENDSHIP IS IMPORTANT AND JUST AS IMPORTANT AS ROMANCE' when it's about Pangzi.

The fact that people don't see him as desirable or shippable is also very obvious by how many fics I've already had to see where Pangzi is just a second choice. Characters date him but only because their first choice is dating someone else. It's so disgusting and he deserves so much better.

Everyone also goes out of their way to deny that the reason why they don't ship Pangzi with any of the characters is just fatphobia and him not being attractive enough for them to ever imagine anyone being in love with him. I've seen such ridiculous reasonings why people don't ship iron triangle ot3 for example, the reason being "pangzi liked piaopiao and yuncai and is therefore clearly a straight man" babygirl bisexual people exist and i've never seen a character more bisexual than wang pangzi.

Another thing I absolutely hate is how you will all ignore the one thing Pangzi is all about, which is being with the iron triangle, putting them first and always choosing them above everything (wu xie didn't give that fucking whole ass speech abt pangzi never leaving his side for nothing) and instead just going 'uhhh uuhhh yeah pangzi isn't here because uhhh he left us for reasons' so you don't have to deal with him when writing about your other little ships. (Suddenly the friendship isn't so important anymore huh...)

Also making Pangzi asexual so they can pretend their fic is iron triangle ot3 or even ot4, but this way we don't have to pretend characters think he's desirable or worthy of sleeping with and we can leave him out of the smut because he's ace and ace people don't have sex or can be sexy, right? Like I absolutely adore ace!pangzi hcs but jesus fuck once again TRANSPARENT AS FUCK and uh a bit aphobic if i may say so

Or people just solely focusing on moments where Pangzi messes up. If I have to read one more post describing the characters and it describes Pangzi as the one always getting them in trouble and clumsy and stupid I'm gonna stab myself in the eye, you're describing Wu Xie, not Pangzi. So many of you only see him as the silly fat man but he's so so so so so much more? He's so good at his job, he clocks danger early on so many times but everyone just ignores it (in ultimate note alone it happens several times in a few episodes), he's strong, an amazing fighter, he's smart, caring, funny, kind, loyal,... But it gets ignored because all everyone sees is 'funny fat man who also sometimes triggers a trap'

[hopevalley]

its super bizarre - i feel there has been next to no progress with this love triangle for almost three years. like we still don't know much about these men, why she should go with one or the other and they write them in a very strange fashion. but even elizabeth herself - there has been no talk between her and her friends about how she is processing her grief over her dead husband, when and if she wants to move on, there's alot of assumption and not alot of back up. weird.

I think you sent three messages but I’ll reply to each one separately because I’m lazy and it seems simpler. :P

I agree that the biggest issue with the love triangle is almost in two parts.

We don’t really feel like we know these men let alone why she would like them, but also

The writing is clumsy sometimes and it throws everything off.

Related to #1 you could also say, “Why should either of these men like Elizabeth beyond her good looks?” Like sure, her being good with kids is an admirable trait (from Nathan’s POV, anyway), but it’s not exactly romance-worthy on its own.

I wish there was a little more meaty discussion about “moving on” and the processing of grief. Here are some examples of grief that were addressed in the show:

Cat loved her husband but they’d been having a lot of troubles due to his gambling addiction, and the debt Joe left with her left Cat to care more about how her children felt about him than how she felt. I can’t help but feel that there was a little resentment there.

Florence straight up was still in love with Paul. Like he still left her love notes toward the end of his life and everything. As late as S5 she was still not ready to move past him.

Molly loved Patrick but was trying to live in the present by focusing on Rosaleen (so maybe struggled to process that loss). We never really saw her get over it.

Mary loved her husband and emotionally wasn’t ready to move on from him but felt she needed to take advantage of someone expressing an interest in her because she had a son to worry about and no way to provide for him long-term. We see her fall for Dewitt over time but it’s pretty clear to me that had she been financially sound, she would have never bothered with him from the start (because she wasn’t ready to move on).

Abigail seemed to be grieving for Peter way more than her husband Noah, so it’s possible they weren’t the uh...most in love anymore by the time he died, but they barely knew each other when they got married so there’s that. There are a few episodes that show her processing her grief, particularly for her son. She had nothing left of her family, so the difficulty for her was in leaving the house they had shared to get on with her life, and, much like Mary, not having the luxury of taking her sweet time to decide what to do.

When Dottie’s husband died and Bill expressed his condolences, she said, “Please. We both know my husband was no saint.” I never forgot that line. It’s hard to get a read on her relationship to Silas, but I got a “convenience” vibe from them. (In fact, at one point I thought she was going to hook up with Henry...lol.)

We also got a “moving on” theme with Bill and Nora for quite some time, where we saw that both characters grieved the loss of their son Martin differently (and in fact, were incompatible in this way as their methods of grieving only ended up hurting each other). Nora was very open with her grief; Bill was very closed about it. Even after a couple of years Nora couldn’t seem to finish processing her grief and felt she was alone in her hurt. I think Dottie was a catalyst for Nora being able to move on; she told her that she was not alone and many women in Hope Valley understood the hurt she was feeling very well. She then made a conscious effort to get on with her life and stop wallowing in her grief.

We also saw Clara struggle a little with the memory of Peter, but it was just a glimpse, and I think serves to show the audience that moving on doesn’t necessarily mean forgetting, and it certainly doesn’t mean the love you felt disappears.

I know they had a whole episode dedicated to people grieving Jack, but it didn’t really have the time to get into the heart of it for everyone. We saw bits and pieces of the characters dealing with it. Rosemary was close (childhood!) friends with Jack. Bill was his mentor/viewed Jack as a son and he’s already lost one son. Abigail probably also saw Jack a bit like a son/family member. They all sort of...grieved for Jack and we caught glimpses of that, but never the full resolution. Has everyone processed that grief except for Elizabeth? We have no way of knowing.

I really just want Elizabeth to have a frank discussion with some of her friends. I don’t even care which friend. She could talk to Rosemary, Lee, Bill, Clara, Florence, Molly. Heck, she could write to Abigail and let it be narrated like her journal entries. Sometimes those were a bit heavy-handed but at least we weren’t left to just Assume Everything (which is a disaster in HeartieLand).

What kind of conversation would I want? Just something open and honest. Raw. The girls had that discussion about feeling “cheated” in S5 and that was one of the best lines this show has ever seen. I want Elizabeth to have that conversation with someone. I almost don’t care who it is, but it might be nice if it was someone a bit unexpected (so...not Rosemary or Clara). My vote would be for Bill because I want to see him have a bigger role with Elizabeth and Jack, but also because Jack meant a good deal to him, too, and he might be able to offer an interesting perspective, but Lee or Florence would be incredible, too, and the conversation being so belated would feel more natural (these aren’t people she confides in about deep emotional things, but she bottled it up until it just exploded). 

Plus I feel like those three characters wouldn’t push her the way Clara and Rosemary pushed Elizabeth in the past. Was it #badwriting? Yeah. But they were really pushy about Elizabeth needing to fall in love again/put herself out there. I think Bill, Lee, or Florence would encourage her more from the perspective she needs encouragement from, in my opinion: sometimes moving on takes a long time, sometimes a person needs to process their grief without pressure from other people.

(Plus, I’m kind of tired of seeing Rosemary just fill Abigail’s shoes as the only friend Elizabeth apparently has. I want to see other characters Elizabeth can lean on, too.)

[traincat]

i don't ask this with intention of being like One is Better that the Other, but more like understanding them better; how would you say peter's relationships are different form each other, in a nutshell? (or just with gwen and mj?)

That’s a valid question because they are very different relationships and while I don’t like talking about them with the view that One Woman Is Better For The Man Than This Other Woman, Therefore Other Woman Is Terrible, I do think it’s important to acknowledge those differences and they’re interesting to talk about.

Here’s the thing: in 616, I think it’s very important that Peter and Mary Jane aren’t each other’s first relationship. We don’t know as much about her relationship history as we do about Peter’s – we know she’s seen other people, including Harry, but I think it’s important to keep in mind that for the majority of her life, since she was fourteen years old in canon, she’s known Peter was Spider-Man and for a long time kept that secret to herself. (We also know as per ASM #259 that serious relationships justifiably scare her – but I’ll get to that in a moment.) But Peter seriously dated Betty Brant when he was in high school, and, though I don’t think it gets talked up enough in discussions about Peter and Gwen, before Gwen’s death she and Peter were very much planning to get married.

(Amazing Spider-Man #103) 

Cut for length.

(Peter had also briefly thought about proposing to Betty Brant at the end of high school. He’s a marriage monster.)

If I had to use one word to sum up Peter and Gwen’s relationship it would be “passionate.” And not always in a good way. They have a very fast connection in comics, but initially, they don’t really like each other that much. 

(Amazing Spider-Man #35)

They’re on the same wavelength – that wavelength just happens to be “this hot person pisses me off so bad.” But then John Romita sweeps in and things get romantic as opposed to Ditko’s more prickly, vampier Gwen take, and Peter and Gwen start to get closer. That Mary Jane enters the picture and is seeing Peter probably doesn’t hurt Gwen making a more aggressive move on him. One thing I want to clarify that in modern day the word “dating” conjures up, first to mind, a serious image when we talk about fictional relationships, but Peter and MJ were very casually seeing each other after they first finally came face to face, something that seemed to annoy Peter actually:

(Amazing Spider-Man #44) In Webspinners #1′s backup story, The Kiss, Peter describes MJ at this point in time as mercurial and indirect, and says that’s one of the reasons he was more attracted to Gwen at the time. Gwen’s very direct, very passionate, and very open with her emotions, whereas Mary Jane and Peter both have their own secrets. It makes a certain amount of sense that Peter would be drawn to that openness. Peter and Gwen also have a keen interest in the sciences in common, which I also think is a pretty important factor in their early courtship when you consider part of the reason Peter felt isolated in high school was that his classmates didn’t share his interests:

(Amazing Spider-Man #53)

Once Peter and Gwen are together, things get pretty serious pretty quickly, with lots of sappy love declarations and both of them bringing the other around their parents. 

(Amazing Spider-Man #68) Like I said, one of the things I often see overlooked in discussions about Peter and Gwen is just how serious the relationship was at the time of Gwen’s death. They were if not officially engaged then definitely pre-engaged and making plans for marriage. Peter had even wrangled his way into a staff position at the Daily Bugle specifically with his future marriage to Gwen in mind.

(Amazing Spider-Man #99) Peter used to be super good at this whole responsibility thing, in both his costumed and uncostumed lives. 

This isn’t to say Peter and Gwen didn’t have problems – while people paint an image of the college days before Gwen’s death as being some big MJ/Peter/Gwen love triangle, that’s not really true. MJ had a tendency to flirt with Peter, especially in front of Gwen and also Harry, who MJ was seeing at the time, but it was Peter who was at times irrationally jealous of Flash’s flirting with Gwen. 

(Amazing Spider-Man #72)

(ASM #80) Poor Flash really suffered as the least dramatic member of this friend group. It’s a little ironic that Peter got so heated up about Flash of all people because, while Flash does at one point profess more than friendly feelings to Gwen, he’s exceptionally gentle about it and never actually tries to threaten her relationship with Peter.

(Amazing Spider-Man #107)

On Gwen’s side of things, Peter’s frequent disappearances troubled her, and she often begged him to stay with her in times of danger – when he was trying to slip out and discreetly change into his Spider-Man costume – so that Peter would prove to her that he wasn’t a coward. (Look, it was the 60s and 70s in superhero comics and machismo was a big deal.) She could be insecure – Peter’s disappearances sometimes made her think he didn’t love her anymore, a feeling which was compounded when she accidentally lost her temper and yelled at Aunt May about her tendency to coddle Peter, causing May to put some distance between them, and after the death of her father, for which she initially blamed Spider-Man.

(Amazing Spider-Man #91) It was that hatred of Spider-Man that made Peter hesitate proposing to her initially, and she briefly left to stay with her uncle and aunt in England thinking that he didn’t care for her as much as she did for him. All those are, when you get down to it, far more serious issues in the relationship than the notion that Mary Jane and Gwen were constantly fighting over Peter.

I said if I had to pick one word for Peter and Gwen’s relationship it would be “passionate” – but I think that’s in part because Gwen herself is a very passionate character. For all her emotional openness compared to Mary Jane’s at the time party girl facade, Gwen felt very deeply about everything, especially about her relationship with Peter. I don’t doubt that if Gwen had lived, she and Peter would have gotten married – it was the natural progression for their relationship at the time. However, I’m not sure they would have stayed married, and not for any “selling the marriage to the devil” reasons. I’m sure they would both have tried very hard to make it work, and I don’t think separating would be easy for either of them, but I’m just not sure if I see them as a successful long term relationship. (Which, for the record, doesn’t make me ship them less.)

With that in mind, I also don’t know if I think PeterMJ happens without Gwen’s death – at least, not in the specific way it does in comics. While he was definitely initially attracted to her – it’s a running joke before Mary Jane appears on panel that Peter desperately tries to avoid meeting her because he thinks that, because Aunt May approves of her and says she’s a nice girl, that she’ll be ugly, which is where Mary Jane’s famous “face it, tiger” line comes in when she reacts to his surprise at the door – the further in love Peter falls with Gwen, the less intrigue Mary Jane seems to hold for him. Before Gwen’s death, he’s even disapproving of her advances, and dislikes the fact that she hits on him in front of Harry when she and Harry are dating.

(Amazing Spider-Man #97)

(ASM #106)

At the time of Gwen’s death, Peter’s impression of Mary Jane isn’t the most favorable in the world: he thinks she’s a flighty, irresponsible party girl – which, to be fair, is the impression Mary Jane has put some serious effort into cultivating. This changes with Gwen’s death with one very important scene that signifies – not necessarily to Peter, who is lost in his grief at the moment, but to the readers – that that’s not who Mary Jane is at all, and it’s the door scene from Amazing Spider-Man #122.

I’ve noted before that Peter has a tendency to lash out verbally towards the people in his life when he’s in the depths of grief, and he can be very good at hurting people, like here when he accuses Mary Jane of not caring that Gwen’s dead and telling her to get out. 

And she doesn’t. If I had to pick a scene that I think is the most pivotal turning point in any Marvel comics relationship, it would be this one. 

Peter and Mary Jane have a more complicated build up to their romance than Peter and Gwen did. Unlike Gwen, who was very much a heart on her sleeve girl, Mary Jane has secrets of her own, something Peter doesn’t really seem to realize when they do launch into a romance of their own, and when Mr. Marriage pops the question to her the first time Mary Jane ends up turning him down.

(ASM #183) 

Mary Jane’s commitment issues are seated deep-seated. Gwen, as far as we know, had no reason not to believe in true love. Mary Jane has many.

(ASM #259)

I love Amazing Spider-Man #257-259 because they totally recontextualize everything about Mary Jane and throw all her previous actions into a sharp and different new light that just makes the most perfect sense. ASM #257-259 reveals two very important things. The first is that Mary Jane knew the whole time, since before Peter ever laid eyes on her, that he was Spider-Man, and that she’s been walking around the whole time carrying this secret.

(Spider-Man: Parallel Lives)

The second is that, with Mary Jane having told Peter she knows his biggest secret, she makes it an even trade and tells him her own, letting him know the details of her childhood that shaped her into the person she is. It’s really worth reading for yourself if you haven’t already and in my opinion it’s one of the best backstory reveals ever written. 

(ASM #259)

Peter and Mary Jane enter into a weird stage in their relationship at this point in time. Mary Jane is, essentially, the only person Peter can confide in once he learns she’s known his secret all along. Mary Jane, on the other hand, finds the nitty-gritty details of Spider-Man’s life difficult to deal with, even as she tries to be there for Peter. One thing I see a lot in Mary Jane vs Gwen discourse is that while Mary Jane loves Spider-Man, Gwen loves Peter, which is a completely movie-based fabrication – in 616, Mary Jane frequently wishes Peter wasn’t Spider-Man and worries about him risking his life. They have a very strong emotional – and physical – connection at this point, but they’re not officially romantically together, and during this point in time Peter is still involved in a tumultuous on-and-off relationship with Felicia Hardy.

(Spectacular Spider-Man #116)

“I’ve just ruined a perfectly good lie.” (Spider-Man vs Wolverine)

They don’t officially get together again until Peter proposes marriage – again. Although Mary Jane initially turns down his offer again, she later calls him from her sister’s home in Pittsburgh asking him to come down and help her.

(ASM #291)

Hearing about Mary Jane’s past is one thing, but Peter’s confronted with it when he finds himself supporting Mary Jane as she tries to figure out what to do when her father’s schemes have landed her estranged sister in jail. It’s a really great lead up to the marriage: Peter has to learn to trust Mary Jane to make decisions, and Mary Jane takes the reigns when she needs to help out in a Spider-Man fight. At the end, in the airport, she agrees to marry him.

(ASM #292)

It’s not magically perfect after that – in ASM Annual #21, the wedding issue, Peter worries about Mary Jane’s more lavish lifestyle and how she’ll handle his more staid one in addition to his fears over what his enemies could do to his new wife, Mary Jane struggles with the concept of committing after so many years of running from that, and the ghost of Gwen still hangs over them both.

They do both end up making it down the aisle, of course, though:

(ASM Annual #21)

One of the things I love about Peter and Mary Jane is that, while I truly do think the characters are soulmates, they’re not perfect – they have relationship problems as big as Mary Jane worrying Peter’s identity as Spider-Man will get him killed or about what effects his irradiated blood might have on any children she might have, to as small as Peter having a crisis over Mary Jane paying his bills for him:

(Web of Spider-Man #37)

And of course Peter and Mary Jane have a much more complicated and complex relationship than Peter and Gwen did, but that’s because Peter and Mary Jane had hundreds of issues over which it develops and deepens, even after their marriage, whereas Gwen Stacy wasn’t even in 100 issues after her first appearance before she died. So I think Peter and Gwen have much more of an instantaneous love connection, which is aided by Gwen’s own emotional openness, whereas Peter and MJ are more of a slow burn, with a lot of stops and starts along the way that end up being the foundation for a very strong love.