#JOSHUA SHOWS UP TO PROTECT CLIVE FROM ULTIMA

[xamaxenta]

This game is ruining my life

[asha-mage]

FFXVI really takes your hand and says 'come with me', then shows you a world that is broken and full of pain and heartache and selfishness and cruelty. It shows you the terrible things people are willing to do to each other for no good reason, it shows you how how leaders can be short sighed and foolish in their earnest desire to do the right thing for their people, and that causes no less pain then when they are corrupted and arrogant and vain monsters. It shows you how people's cruelty all to often is born of a world that beats them down that gives them no other choice but to be cruel if they want to survive.

And then it asks: is this worth saving? Is this worth protecting? Wouldn’t it be better if you just let it all go? Let it all be destroyed, and broken apart, and lost? Wouldn’t it be enough to just end the pain? Wouldn’t that be salvation?

And in the same breath it answers, no because salvation isn’t the point. Humanity is cruel, greedy, fractious and hateful and it always will be. Just as humanity is kind, generous, united and loving and always will be. Even as the world falls apart The Dame fights to keep Northreach together, even as monsters beat down her gates Martha takes in refugees and escaped slaves and refuses to stop, even as nations crumble and bandits flourish the Dragoons still battle for the sake of their people and country, while the Crusebreakers keep struggling to free the innocent and protect the weak. Even as Joshua is hacking up blood, even as his body is shutting down he keeps walking forward at Clive’s side inevitably, inexorably to the end, because he loves his brother and refuses to give him up to Ultima’s scheme.

FFXVI tells you that there are no promises, not guarantees, that the only people who can promise salvation are the ones who want to sell it. FFXVI says that no one is assured victory, or safety, or paradise. The point is not to save the world from it’s evils. The point is that we fight to try and reach the next dawn with the people we love. Humanity can never create a perfect world because we are imperfect creatures, but the battle to make a better world, a kinder world, a more free world, a more gentle more fair, more loving world is what defines us.

[volos-wish]

Does anyone else think that Joshua was more of a shield to Clive than Clive was to Joshua?

At the begining of the game Joshua heals Clive after the tutorial match which is Joshua looking out for Clive, not the other way around.

At Phoenix Gate, you first play as Joshua who got through most of it without Clive. Joshua even fought Ifrit in order to protect Clive.

Joshua has spent and dedicated his whole life researching the thing that is threatening Clive's life, protecting his brother from the shadows as he shows up and absorbs Ultima.

Joshua is going to die and is actively dying, we know this after he absorbs Ultima. Ultima will break free some day. Clive has absolutely no way of stopping or preventing that from happening, and he barely even knows it is happening in the first place.

Clive could never have saved Joshua from the start (not even including the fact he "killed" him).

But Joshua could save Clive and he knew that, and he did.

[fancy-plans]

I know that no one follows me for final fantasy stuff, but I need to write out my thoughts/interpretation the Final Fantasy XVI ending, and tumblr allows for good spoiler protection, so forgive my indulgence.

SPOILERS AHEAD, DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU'VE BEAT FFXVI

Okay. Now, as much as I hate it, I think Dion is definitely dead, or meant to have died. While there's no question in my mind that this is the game's intent, the fate of any of the three who faced Ultima can be easily amended with enough will (hehe) or copium. We only see Dion falling, we don't see him actually die, so why can't Dion be to FFXVI what Shepard is to Mass Effect 3? Joshua (if he lived), or Terence, or Medicine Girl, can be there searching for him in the rubble, find him, heal him. But yes, for me personally this is a pure copium interpretation none-the-less.

As for Clive, I also think he is definitely dead. He states that Ultima's power was too much for his vessel body in the end, and we see the curse taking him on the beach, spreading from his fingertips to his entire hand within seconds. We also see Metia fading, which indicates Clive's death.

The main argument I see for Clive's survival is that in the final Jill quest, she says that no matter how bad the night is, the dawn will always come, as will Clive. And then when Jill is crying, she sees the dawn come, and stops crying. However, I think that's just her finding hope in the darkness, and through her grief, taking comfort in the knowledge that Clive did indeed save the world so that a new dawn would always come.

This also fits with the lyrics of the song that play at the end, My Star, which go:

For your flame still burns inside me deep within my heart Showing me, a new tomorrow, never too far And when I cannot bear the pain, I look up to the sky and pray And though our night is over you shall always remain, forever, my treasure, my star

Yeah, those lyrics definitely say "Clive is dead" to me, sadly. I think Clive's fate is of course debatable, and I see a lot of people convinced that he survived. But, for me, as much as I wish he did, I just don't think he lived.

Now, finally, to Joshua, the most complicated one. The biggest piece of evidence for Joshua's survival is THE BOOK. Final Fantasy, written by Joshua Rosfield. A lot of people think that Clive wrote the book under Joshua's name due to the quill that Harpocrates gave to him, but... why? That makes no sense to me. If they wanted to show that Clive survived and wrote the book, the book would have just had Clive's byline. Let's not forget that Harpocrates also said that Joshua is a gifted writer, so Harpocrates' crumbs don't lead only to Clive as the author.

There's also the interpretation that Clive/Jill had a son named Joshua who wrote the book. While more plausible to me and also a sweet interpretation, it still seems like quite a big reach. Or, perhaps Joshua had already been writing the book while he was alive, and Clive finished/published it? But when Harpocrates tells Clive that Joshua would be a good writer (which he also says to Clive to keep us all confused, lulz), it's implied that there really isn't time for anyone to be writing, but maybe after Ultima's defeat it's the pen they could turn to.

So, of all the explanations for the book, I think that Joshua surviving and writing it is the most likely, and the reason for that being shown at the end when it easily didn't have to be shown at all. And let's also not forget that the name Joshua derives from Yeshua, the Hebrew name for Jesus. Jesus and the Phoenix, these are both figures who rise again.

But, that of course begets the problem of how, actually, did he survive when he was most definitely dead? Joshua even explicitly says in an earlier scene that the Phoenix can mend flesh, but not restore a spirit. Yet, the difference from then and the end is that when Clive healed Joshua, he was using the power he absorbed from Ultima, the power of a God. We know this because after Clive heals Joshua, he states that his body wasn't enough to be able to handle Ultima's power after all. And if Ultima's power wasn't important narratively, then Clive could have healed Joshua's flesh once he absorbed the Phoenix's power, rather than this act occurring after. Besides, whatever he did to Joshua must have utilized a great deal of power, not just the power of simple healing/mending flesh, to have been too much for his vessel body. And while the powers of the Phoenix can't restore a spirit on their own, we really don't know what they would be capable of in conjunction with Ultima's power.

Even before this, we know that Joshua's power earlier went to bounds that it should not have been able to when he reached Clive, who was trapped in Ultima's nightmare realm. Ultima says something like, "You shouldn't have the power to do this. How is this possible? This is the power of creation," (paraphrase). I think that Joshua and Clive's powers, when fueled by their will, determination, and brotherly love, are capable of stretching beyond any normal bounds. There's no telling what they'd be capable of when combined with Ultima's power. Therefore, as Clive cycles through the memories of his brother and burns with the will for the power to heal him, Clive was able to actually revive Joshua at the end.

My last though on Joshua surviving is not based on any actual game events/lore/evidence, so might perhaps be more copium fueled, but I think it also makes more sense for Clive's story arc. The game begins with him (nearly) killing his brother, and a full loop would end with him saving him. Final Fantasy XVI is after all, more than anything, a story of brotherly love. For Clive's final act to be to save his brother and fulfill his duty as Joshua's shield, is a much more satisfying and complete story and character arc imo.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Like I said, it's really up to interpretation which, if any of those three, might have survived. The only thing that would change that would be if we got a post-game DLC that confirmed things one way or another. But, for now, this is what makes the most sense to me, for better or worse.

[ultimablades]

Some thoughts and my interpretation on the FF16 ending

I’ve seen a couple different interpretations of the ending now so I want to share what I think happened. Personally, I am in camp “Clive brought Joshua back and then died on the beach,” so I’m so….confused I guess, that so many people saw the book at the end that’s titled “Joshua Rosfield” as proof that Clive??? Survived??? And not Joshua??

People say it’s cause Harpocrates wished for Clive to put down the sword and pick up the pen one day. But Harpocrates also said that Joshua had a gift for words and would be an excellent historian. In that same vein — we never see Clive showing a particular interest in books or history or writing really, while history and research are a big part of Joshua’s character, he’s one of the only people in the world to have a copy of Moss the Chronicler, like my dude is a nerd. He’s described as bookish in official material.

And then there’s the whole “Clive would take up Joshua’s name,” but….why….why would he do that? It makes sense for him to take up Cid’s name because Cid had already made a reputation for himself as an outlaw who was freeing Bearer’s. Clive could use that notoriety and connections to his advantage and also hide his true identity from people he didn’t want to know it. Why would he use Joshua’s name then? There is nothing for him to gain by penning the book in his brother’s name rather than his own when he could’ve said something like “in memory of my brother,” instead.

I also just think Clive living and Joshua dying makes for a worse ending. I saw someone say the opposite, that Joshua living and Clive dying is worse, and I just don’t agree. Being Joshua’s shield is a huge part of Clive’s identity, perhaps the biggest part of his identity, all he wants to do is protect him. If Joshua dies for good, then that means the game both starts and ends with Clive “failing” what he sees as his duty to protect Joshua. That’s….really unsatisfying for his character!!!

Joshua’s story is about rebirth while Clive’s is about protecting the person he loves most. Clive’s entire story begins the day he loses Joshua and he spends the next 18 years focused on first avenging him, then reuniting and protecting him. He carries that Phoenix feather with him for five years, as a constant reminder his brother is alive. An ending where Joshua dies and Clive does nothing to save him hurts both their characters I think.

And Clive HAS the power to save him. Earlier they said that even the Phoenix doesn’t have the power to bring someone back from the dead and that’s true but Clive doesn’t just have the Phoenix’s powers — he absorbed the power of creation from Ultima too once he defeated him. The power to create and destroy life mingled with the power of the Phoenix I could absolutely believe could revive someone who had just died. Like, do people think he just closed Joshua’s wounds so he would leave behind a pretty corpse? What did you think was happening in that scene?

“But the montage proves Joshua’s death,” the montage that happens while Clive holding Joshua’s body shows us two scenes that we hadn’t seen before: the day Clive officially became Joshua’s shield, and the very first time Clive met Joshua as a baby. Why these two scenes? To remind us what Clive sees as his most important duty — to protect Joshua. The ceremony makes it official but I think it was that first meeting when little baby Joshua grabbed his finger that Clive knew he would do anything for him.

So I think Clive used the combined powers of creation and the Phoenix to save his brother’s life. After that, he uses the rest of the power he had gathered to destroy Origin. When we see him on the beach, with his hand quickly petrifying from the curse, as he is no longer Ultima’s chosen vessel and must now lay the price for all the aether he channeled through his body.

I think he dies on the beach and it’s very sad and bittersweet but I also think it’s ambiguous enough that you can believe he survived that. Like I get it! I don’t want Clive dead either, even if I think he is in the end. I think that’s why Metia fades. But I do think Joshua lived and he really was the one who wrote the book we see at the end with his name on it.

[tsckcyomi-archived]

thoughts on the ffxvi ending below + some general thoughts. nothing rly in-depth ig

i'm subscribing to the theory that clive lives while joshua is dead. although clive must have had god-like powers after absorbing ultima, when he tried healing joshua, he was already dead, and he says "ultima's power was too great for this vessel along". that, to me, very much sounds like clive tried using ultima's powers to bring back joshua but he simply couldn't wield these powers. as for the phoenix powers, the game stated clear limits. the phoenix can heal the body, physical wounds, but they can't bring anyone back from the dead nor can they help/heal the soul. also the tidbits scattered in the sidequest make it the more plausible ending what with jill saying something along the lines of clive being like the dawn that always comes back after the night, and dawn breaking during the ending. then we have the book after the credits that is written by "joshua rosfield" which would be clive's pen name. harpocrates gifted clive a quill and told him to write a book of his adventures, and clive said that he might just do that. also, clive is the narrator at the start and at the end of the game. and in general that's just what it built up to... joshua just wasn't going to survive this whole ordeal seeing how his powers affected him, and how he wanted to be the one to protect clive now.

SO YEAH i absolutely cried and then started sobbing when the main theme hit as the credits rolled, i was kinda embarrassed at myself lmao. so i loved it. i'm someone who very much enjoys bittersweet, heartache-y kind of endings and stories. the songs that played also hit that spot. the other scenes that made me tear up were byron reuniting with clive (it was both a very silly and a very cute scene...) and then later on with joshua. another one was the last sidequest with eloise and theodore. and, of course, when joshua died before the final fight.

but also i can ignore canon and give them all happy endings if i want :) or not. who knows, i enjoy it all.

my quick summary on some other thoughts would be: benedikta's arc is still a little disappointing imo but ok, WHATEVER. i'm over it. i was skeptical of jill at first but she absolutely grew on me, just like clive/jill did. i feel like they're definitely one of the better couples that they've had in recent games. i'm sad about what happened with dion and terence because neither of them would have survived - dion would die from the fall in origin and terence would have been in the crystalline dominion when ultima summoned his ship and destroyed the city in the process. i liked the sidequests even though they were basically always designed the same way, but they did a good job of expanding the universe and showing just how cruel the people are towards bearers, among other things, and i was in it for the lore. i liked all of the npcs (except of course the ones you're supposed to dislike dfgha). so, yea... that's it for now, i think. late night thoughts over.....

[flamesofrebirths]

MUSE SPECIFIC INNER THOUGHTS → @bymargrace

Father suggested me to write a letter...

"I don't really know what to think about this, but Father told me to write a letter to my older self. For positive thoughts. He thinks I am too hard on myself, but as the Phoenix, I have to be strong. I am never enough. But I think... Father believes I will get stronger. That's why he wanted me to write this letter. It was strange, though. The letter disappeared after I sealed it. It lit with fire, like my healing fire, and then... it was gone. Will it come back to me later ? This is strange. I hope I didn't ruin it."

He feels as lonely as I do...

"I had this strange dream tonight. I met... myself. From another universe. He was also Joshua Rosfield, was after Ultima and wished to be reunited with his brother, Clive, very soon. Maybe this is pathetic, but it has made me feel less lonely, at least somehow. For the first time since Phoenix Gate, I could open myself to someone. Jote is very good to me, I appreciate everything she does for me, but she is my attendant. She does not really know me, she supports the Dominant, which is not entirely... me. This other Joshua, on the other hand... We could really understand each other. It meant so much to me. I hope this was not the last time."

He keeps coming back...

"The other Joshua has showed up once again in my dreams, quite often. We have been talking about so many things. I wish I could know how these... parallels universes work. The same events are occuring in a very similar way. We have been facing the same hardships, and we both reunited with Clive recently. I thought we would stop seeing each other after that, but no. We are still supporting each other. I wonder if Clive and Jill also meet with other versions of themselves... Maybe I should ask them. But if I am the only one going through this, what would it mean ?"

His name is Orion now...

"To make things simpler, I am now Aries and he is Orion. We chose new names for when we talk together. Since I have reunited with Clive and Jill, I don't feel lonely like before, but I still appreciate these moments I can share with Orion in my dreams. He is some kind of friend, some kind of brother. Just like me, he is suffering from the curse and from Ultima inside chest, and still wants to work hard and to be useful. Clive is always so protective of me, of us, but Orion and I know how useful we are to this mission. We want to play our part. And we will. We are not weak. I wish other people than ourselves could see it."

Mid likes him...

"I suppose there is nothing surprising in the fact that we are both captivated by the same woman. We are not entirely the same, but we are still quite similar, and I supposed this is the same for Mid's case. However... she seems much more interested in his universe than in mine. He kissed her. He did not only kiss her hand. He kissed her lips, too. And not only once because they are together. Just like Clive and Jill. In my universe, she is kind to me, but I am pretty sure she does not see me this way. She considers me as a friend and I am glad, but... It makes me wonder what I am doing wrong. I tried to talk about it with Orion, and he is encouraging me. It does not mean it will never happen. But why was it easier for him, to be loved in return ?"

[atopearth]

Final Fantasy XVI Part 3 -  To Live is to Hope

I'm glad they addressed the anklet on Torgal's leg, I've been curious about it. Nice to know it was from Cid. I'm glad the kids helped stand up for L'ubor because I was just about ready to leave this town to die. But of course it's better for everyone to be alive because then that can truly change the situation of the people and the Bearers. I liked the quest following in the will of Archduke Elwin. I'm sure he must be really proud to see both his sons living as he would have wanted them to, unwavering in their beliefs for a world where Bearers and everyone can live as they will. I like Isabelle, she's very strong, mature and cool. Her story was very bittersweet too, it's a common story but you could really feel how grateful she was towards Northreach and the Veil for taking her and her lover who was a Bearer in when no one else would, and how much they treated her like family and kin that she's willing to give everything to protect this town and it's people. Her strength and resolve throughout the game in caring for this town goes to show how beautiful Northreach is and also why I have a soft spot for this town too.

It was really sweet to know that Clive tried to take Jill to see snow daisies when they were young because she was sad. He didn't get to show it to her back then but at least now he's been able to fulfil that promise. It's not as romantic as the flower scene in FFVIII before the end but not many things can top the feelings I had back in the day. Anyway, I'm really glad we got this scene because I was like, what about Jill the whole time I was doing all these side quests haha. Glad she got a bit more screentime and it really warmed my heart seeing them hug each other so comfortably and happily. I'm happy that we got the Dion side quest, I think he and I really needed it. Harpocrates also needed it I guess since he never got to watch over Dion any more than the brief time he did when Dion was young, but the fact that Dion remembers and respects him goes to show his importance in his heart. It was cute how Mid also hugged Dion before they left for Origin and he was so surprised haha. But what about Terence? Did he die? I really wanted Dion to get a proper farewell too. I really like Gav's relationship with Clive, so when he started crying, I wanted to tear up too😭 What?! No Torgal for the final battle? That's ridiculous, we've never separated from him, how could we go without him? What is life without Torgal? I mean I should say the same for Jill but I have to admit that I feel more incomplete without Torgal than Jill lmao.0

I knew it was basically impossible for Joshua to live until the end but having to watch him die and Clive absorbing the Phoenix just makes me sad. Little Joshua knighting Clive was the cutest thing ever. As for Ultima, honestly have no feelings for him because he's a pretty typical JRPG villain lol. What, I couldn't believe that was the ending because it was so anticlimactic, I wasn't sure what to feel even when I got back to the title screen. And honestly, what I hate most aren't endings I dislike but inconclusive endings and this is one. It reminds me of Gantz and I'm still salty to this day. I honestly don't care if our main characters really died or not, I don't care if the ending is sad or happy, but I hate that they showed nothing that was an "ending". Everything was just the aftermath of the final battle and then the end. Even that book is just a cop out to make you feel better or something, is it written by the real Joshua resurrected? Clive in his name? Jote in his memory? It could be anything but because they refuse to show it, I don't think I really care either. Just seeing Jill and Gav cry as they welcome in a new life is very unsatisfying. I felt bad for Torgal. How many people he cared about died before him? Anyway yeah, I have no doubt that a world with L'ubor, Martha, Byron and Isabelle and them will be perfectly fine but that doesn't mean I spent 60-70 hours on a journey with Clive just to not see a proper ending for him and I'm just disappointed in this decision. Maybe they're trying for DLCs again or a sequel (EDIT: DLCs coming as expected I guess) but seriously, it leaves a bad aftertaste considering everything that's happened. Dion's implied death was the worst. And the battle where we couldn't play with Bahamut or Phoenix was lacklustre considering how great the battles with Titan and Bahamut were. Anyway, it's crazy how the Bahamut fight was so long, but the ending to an entire game was so short and meaningless.

Overall, I still enjoyed FFXVI. The highlights of the game are definitely the Eikon fights and the side characters. I'm not one to fall for the sway of graphics considering I grew up with the blocks in FFVII but I can very assuredly tell you that the fight against Titan was great, and the fight against Bahamut was pretty freaking cool despite how terrible of a situation it was. In terms of Eikon fights though, I was quite disappointed that Shiva never really got to shine considering how beautiful she was and how cool Shiva always is. Even Garuda had better screentime. Odin had his splitting the sea moment too. As for the side characters, honestly the side quests were tedious at times because running around was annoying and there's only so many times we can kill bandits and fetch materials that are super far away.

I'd say the side quests were worth doing because they really helped towards world building and giving me a better view of how towns and people were. I won't say I liked all of them but Martha and Wade, Isabelle, Eloise and Theodore were great. In terms of main story characters though, my favourites were definitely Joshua, Dion, Gav and Cid. It's funny but this is one of the rare times where I actually loved the younger brother more than the older brother hahaha, I guess I just loved how even though Clive was Joshua's shield, Joshua turned out to be the one to protect him more than he did once they got older. I loved the sibling love and care for each other. I loved Dion's story the most because it was very straightforward and understandable. He was a good guy who cared about his people and his father but wasn't able to stop the destruction caused by Ultima because of these feelings he had for them. Gav and Clive is my favourite relationship because their trust and heart to heart to each other just makes me happy to watch all the time. Cid was cool and a great role model, charismatic and strong in his beliefs, a good way to show what Clive was to become as he continued his journey.

However, I do have to say I probably have more negatives than positives for this game. Personal preference but I wasn't a fan of the combat system. I can understand why there's no "magic system" but the utter lack of debuffs and status changes etc really makes battles quite one dimensional in that your focus is really to combo and dodge/block. Attacks from enemies are basically meaningless because the only difference is how much damage they do and not what they do. Weapons and accessories aren't any better because weapons can only have better damage and stagger but nothing else, and accessories don't really add much change to make me really care what I was using. I mean as I've said, I was using the accessory that does attacks for me so you can take my words with a grain of salt lol but I was just so disinterested in the combat, I couldn't bring myself to bother. Oh and the non-existent party system was disappointing because it never really mattered if you had a party or not, it was just more characters on screen but really, I always felt alone in battle and completely forgot their existence. Anyway, as I was disappointed with Shiva's lack of screentime, I was also disappointed with Jill's presence in the story because her character fell flat for me. She and Clive were cute at times but I kinda wish she had more of a character if that makes sense. Barnabas was also disappointing considering he was closest to Ultima and that he was Odin, so he could have brought more insight and development to those things but nope. I have to say though, the story was very average. I thought the story was going to be more "mature" and go for the exploration of politics, Clive's revenge and fight for forgiveness etc but instead it went down the JRPG killing god route which was very disappointing to me especially considering how boring Ultima was. Oh well I guess. Despite my grievances, I'd still give it a 7.5, it was a nice ride but nothing really hit me, it basically met my expectations which was that even if I don't like the game, the Eikon fights should be cool, and I'd say the game definitely delivered in that aspect with Bahamut, which is kinda ironic because when I first saw Bahamut, I thought he was the ugliest out of all the Eikons hahaha! Who would have thought I'd like his Dominant Dion, and the Eikon fight the most in the end? Odin was the most beautiful but also the most disappointing. Anyway, I'd say the game is worth playing just to see the Eikon fights haha, they are just that visually stunning!

[sapphylicious]

I started writing notes for what was going to be a short (haha) series of connected FF16 oneshots, but now I can’t stop. I’m up to four or five planned stories in this collection.

Also my FF14 brain is like “what if you title each fic after a SMN ability?” It's so low-effort, but you know what, I am also low-effort.

Details and spoilers under the cut.

Currently powering through NG+ to reach the point where Joshua joins so I can refresh my memory on various things.

Radiant Aegis: The Joshua Show, covering the traumatic Phoenix Gate aftermath and recovery, and his decision to work against Ultima from the shadows. I feel like he never intended to reveal himself to Clive, that he planned to seal Ultima and die without Clive ever knowing, to protect him and spare him the pain, but circumstances kept forcing Joshua’s hand. (Which ended up being for the best because Power of Love and Friendship.)

Enkindle Phoenix: Clive uses an unconventional method to ease the burden of the curse on Joshua. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) That’s it, that’s the fic. With apologies to SMN mains for besmirching their summon abilities lmao.

Searing Light: Dion decides to do a test run to ensure that he can prime into Bahamut without losing control because the game robbed us of a sidequest about this exact thing. Features a field trip with the brothers, PTSD, made-up dragon lore.

Resurrection: How all three made it out of Origin alive because in this house everybody lives happily ever after.

Revelation: Post-Origin rebuilding of human society or something idk this one would be complicated.

And hopefully that will be all! Because this already well out of hand!

I didn't know that I loved traumatized, fucked-up brothers so much. Although it's probably more the mutual devotion and protectiveness bordering on obsession that I find appealing, rather than the brothers part per se. That's just a bonus lol.

As for Dion, I also love a tragic hero, a white knight whose good intentions result in the blood of innocents on his hands, who breaks under the weight of the guilt and then has to put himself back together. Which pretty much also applies to Clive! And heck, Jill too. They should all go to therapy together.