#and also shouldn't be allowed to have takes on Ned either

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

You've heard about the theory that Ned Stark plays favourites between his daughters

Now get ready for the new theory from the same folks that Jon is Ned's favourite child.

I guess bringing Jon with his filthy bastard blood to WF and allowing him to breathe the same air with his superior highborn kids means that daddy was always playing favourites/s.

[ramblings-of-a-mad-cat]

Stannis/House Baratheon stan here. For what it's worth, I don't think he'll have anything to do with Shireen's burning in the books. Book Stannis was not in on the plan to kill Renly/doesn't know he played any part. Also when Edric Storm escapes Stannis is secretly relieved. You're right that he got ruined in the adaptation. Stephen Dillane's acting is the only good thing about Show-Stannis. My guess is either that Ramsay will murder Shireen to mock Stannis and the Lord of Light, or Melisandre will perform the ritual behind his back.

You know, I'm glad to hear it. 

Because there are a handful of scenes where I feel like I'm supposed to like Stannis and support his claim for the Iron Throne. Like, the scene when he offers to naturalize Jon. So few characters actually show Jon any respect, at least among the Highborn. (Not counting his siblings.) I felt my own respect for Stannis going up in that scene, just a little bit. Davos clearly worships the ground that he walks on but much like Ned Stark, his opinion is normally a good indicator of whether or not another character is trustworthy. At a guess, I feel like Davos didn't take his Knighting for granted because it happened at the same time he lost his fingers? Still, I can't say I'd feel that close to the man who was responsible for both.

Let's talk about kin-slaying. Renly was a rival for the throne. It would have come to blows between them no matter what, I understand that. And while the use of magic to assassinate him is taboo...I don't know, it just doesn't feel nearly as dirty as say, violating guest right. It probably prevented bloodshed overall. Still...that was his brother. I know the three Baratheon brothers have never really gotten along, but...still. How salty is Stannis over not getting Storm's End? I am glad to hear that this was presumably Melisandre's doing entirely in the books, though if Stannis doesn't know what happened...he's less of a villain but much more of a fool, if that makes any sense. He's completely under her thumb. Still, I can also understand how embittered he probably feels at his lack of support. I mean, if Robb and Renly had just backed him from the start, he'd no doubt have had the numbers to take King's Landing during the Battle of Blackwater. I feel like that isn't lost on him.

People in the show keep talking about how he has the "personality of a lobster" and how he "never wanted any friends." Which is coming back to bite him now that he's making a claim for the Iron Throne. Renly and Stannis are like Joffrey and Tommen. They're stark opposites and this gives both of them strengths and weaknesses when it comes to ruling. The one thing Renly has over Stannis is popularity, and that's for a reason. In Stannis' defense, he's right - the throne belongs to him in accordance with the Baratheon dynasty. I'm skeptical of his claim that he doesn't want it and only acts out of duty, but I don't fault him for trying to take the throne. I do feel like he gets way ahead of himself by declaring himself King and acting as though he is one before he sits on the Iron Throne...but hey, he's hardly the only character to do this. (Looking at you, Daenerys of the Dozen Titles.)

I also don't hold it against Stannis that he converts to the Lord of Light religion. All faiths are valid. We see that people can support this religion and still be chill about it - just look to the Brotherhood without Banners. We also see that people can subscribe to other religions like the more common Faith of the Seven, and take it way too far, like the Sparrows do. The problem is, Melisandre is one of those people who takes faith much too far. I still think Stannis has way, way too much faith in her. It's not even entirely about morals - he makes a good point that Aegon the Conquerer used dragons to take the Seven Kingdoms, so why shouldn't he be allowed to use the Lord of Light's magic? To which I say, yeah, you're right. That's fair. But he gives Melisandre too much power. I also have an issue with "sacrificing" (read: murdering) people for religious reasons, or even to cast spells.

I hope to god that he doesn't kill Shireen in the books. Because after he did that...look, I was never a big fan of him even up to that point in the show. But I still understood that he was basically supposed to be a good guy and naturally, I was rooting for him when it came to the upcoming fight with the Boltons. But after he murders Shireen? Ramsay could have given him the "Reek" treatment and I wouldn't have cared. I wouldn't wish that on anyone but I also wouldn't have shed any tears for Stannis if it had happened to him, if that makes any sense. Same goes for Melisandre. I'll never get over her deflection when Davos confronts her about killing Shireen. "So did her father. So did her mother." At that point I paused the episode and literally said aloud. "Yeah, so? They're dead. You're not. Can we fix that please?" Ugh, Melisandre is a whole other discussion by herself...

The other thing about Stannis that has always kind of made me cringe, low-key, is all of the nicknames that the fandom gives him. Notably "Stannis the Mannis" like...it's fine the first time, but there are people I've come across who literally refer to him as such every single time they mention him. Then again, that one isn't nearly as stupid as calling Robert "Bobby B" I just...I'm not saying anyone is stupid if they use these nicknames, but I am saying that I lose years of my life when I hear them. Might just be a personal thing. I don't know, I feel like both Stannis and Robert are idealized and so often have their flaws downplayed. Especially Robert. His willingness to kill children is something I cannot ignore. Stannis actually does kill his own daughter, but everyone seems to think that Robert would have done the same to his daughter, and his sons, if he'd learned the truth about their paternity. Not to mention, he wasn't the most adept ruler. It's easy enough to say that the realm was fine under his reign, but he ruled in peacetime for the most part. Given how he never attended the Small Council meetings, we can assume that Jon Arryn was the real ruling power anyway. Robert's main contribution seems to have been racking up a truckload of debt for the crown - thereby giving Tywin Lannister yet more power.

But that's not say Robert is a terrible person either. It is only fair to point out that in the case of his children, and of Jon Snow, he never found out the truth. So we can't say for certain what he would have done, he was never given the chance to speak for himself on those subjects. And while he may have only rebelled against the Targaryens because they offended him...I do appreciate his loyalty to the Starks, and the Mad King's crimes against Ned's family are as good a reason as any to say "Enough is enough." We never see him interact with Lyanna, and while it's clear that he's idealized her...it's not clear how much of that is a conscious choice. The Three Eyed Raven says "Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie." But...did Robert know that? Did he know that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped? That she eloped with Rhaegar out of love? When he talks about how Rhaegar "took Lyanna away from him" is that jealousy, or does he genuinely think Lyanna was a victim? He's long dead by the time the show reveals the truth of the matter, so it's a little ambiguous. Either way, he was not ready to be married to someone else and Cersei was made to suffer the the pain of Robert's heartbreak over another woman. Look, Cersei is despicable, I hate her more than any other character on the show...but if her version of events is to be believed, she was making a genuine effort at the start, and Robert never bothered to try, or treat her with any respect at all.