#and dongrang lets it happen for what? to make a point?????

[ratlesshonret]

Okay so. Limbus Theory Time. But I'd be lame if I did a theory about the soon-to-release (hopefully) Canto VI, so instead I'm doing Don Quixote Theory Hours.

Okay so, let me lay out my thought process. In the latest released piece of content for the main game, "Risk Levels and Classifications" I believe it's called, Don Quixote seems to recognize the name Moses. To me, this implies that she has either met or been in proximity to Moses in the past.

Furthermore, in Canto IV, Don is basically the first person to realize Dongrang is Distorting, and says something about it before even Faust can. This says to me that she has been involved in cases of Distortion in the past, since she recognizes the signs before anyone else. Before this point, supposedly none of the Sinners have seen someone Distort. There was Papa Bongy in Canto 3.5, but the group only arrived after he had Distorted.

If Don Quixote really has been involved in a Distortion case, then it'd make sense that she either knows of, or my theory, has met Moses, the Distortion Detective.

Going even further back, to Canto III, Don beats the shit out of Sinclair when he stabs a dead inquisitor repeatedly, and says that her friends had done similar to her in the past when she had been "overtaken by fervor."

What has, to this point in the game, been the most effective method of "curing" the Distortion? What method has worked on Papa Bongy, Dongrang, and Distorted Bamboo-Hatted Kim?

Beating them up.

It is my theory that, in the past, Don Quixote has Distorted. And she was saved from her Distortion by her old friends "beating some sense" into her.

Past this point is stuff I don't really have much evidence for, but want to talk about anyway. So here's your warning that we're going from "mildly substantiated speculation" to "complete spitballing."

I think that Don Quixote has not only Distorted once in the past, but potentially multiple times. The way Don speaks about when she's been beaten by her friends says to me that it has happened multiple times before. So I don't think this Distortion is juts a one-off thing. She either has Distorted, or been on the verge of Distorting, multiple times before.

Furthermore, I want to look at exactly when Don notices Dongrang's imminent Distortion.

Don notices that Dongrang is about to Distort when he begins talking to somebody who isn't present. As we've seen in every Distortion victim and potential Distortion victim, from Philip, to Yan, to Xiao, to Vergilius, to Dongrang, they all speak with Carmen before they Distort. It's well-established at this point that Carmen is the one who causes people to Distort.

My theory is that Don has spoken with Carmen, perhaps many times, due to her past Distortion. This is why she recognized Dongrang's imminent Distortion, due to the context she knew he was speaking with Carmen. Don isn't stupid, she's been shown to be able to deduce things quite easily as long as she has the background knowledge to do so.

Not only has Don Distorted before, and not only has she spoken with Carmen in the course of it, and not only has she Distorted multiple times in the past, but I think she has some kind of "Recurring Distortion" caused by Carmen not being willing to let up on Don. And I also think that she is still at risk of Distorting, even as she rides on the bus with all of the other Sinners.

Don Quixote always acts like a hero of justice, a valiant knight who respects those who keep the peace and fights to stop injustice and villains all over the City. And yet, we know she doesn't really believe this delusion of grandeur she has. As far back as Canto II, in the scene with the mariachi gang, we've been able to see a side of Don that's much more grounded in reality. The gang even brought up the idea that Don is insincere.

I believe the reason for Don's personality is that she's constantly battling Carmen. If Carmen is really trying to get Don to Distort, she may be attacking Don's sense of justice. Something along the lines of, "You can't really help people, injustice can't be eliminated by just one person." Possibly even telling Don that if she Distorts and accepts this fact, she can do more to combat injustice than she can right now.

I don't think Don's love of justice and hatred of villains is a lie, but I do think her old-timey speak and her sheer dedication aren't sincere. The sheer amount of trouble Don causes when she sees an injustice, and her lack of ability to restrain herself, I don't think can be put up to an act. So what is it?

As I said before, I think she's battling Carmen. Whether she's trying to prove she can serve justice all on her own, without Carmen's help, or whether she's trying to delude herself so hard that Carmen can't get in anymore, I don't know. But I think her act is all an attempt to stop her "Recurring Distortion" phenomenon.

If Limbus knows about her past Distorting, there's a chance they've had her talk with the LCD. If this is true, then it's another potential avenue through which Don has learned of Moses, if Moses and Don didn't meet in Moses' Distortion Detection.

If Don is also at constant risk of Distorting, then this could be involved with the "deal" that she's made with Vergilius. It's possible he sees her deranged behavior as a warning sign of Distortion.

It's possible that Don saw an "injustice" and attempted to right it when she joined Limbus Company, and her being unable to do so caused her to Distort. The "deal" could have been that she wouldn't put herself at risk of Distorting. But this is all just wild speculation.

In short, I think Don is a constant Distortion risk. Carmen saw her emotional instability and intense desire for justice, and decided she could use that to get Don to Distort. Because she is a prime candidate for Distortion.

But there's one more thing I haven't brought up, and that's Don's "friends." The people who stopped her from fully Distorting in the past by beating sense into her. Who were these people?

I don't know. Not conclusively anyway. But I have an idea.

The Udjats.

To be transparent, I did not come up with this theory. But I think it makes at least a little sense. The Udjats, and their leader Dias, seem to be quite invested in Distortions. They would know what to do in the case of one of their own beginning to Distort. It's possible that Don joined the Udjats because she thought they were just, or through some other reason entirely. Again, I have no real evidence of this.

If Don was an Udjat at some point, or knew them in some way, then that'd be another potential route she knew Moses. Moses was once a relatively high rank in the Udjats, and continued being under Dias' thumb long afterwards, as shown by her still having to do work for Dias during the time of Distortion Detective.

All together, this is a bunch of barely-substantiated theories, but I think they make just enough sense to be put out there. "Don has Distorted in the past" is the one I'm most confident in, while, "Don was an Udjat at some point" is one I'm very much not super confident in. But I think it's food for thought.

[cat-of-starlight]

I DO have a long Project Moon Universe post/mini-essay(?) I wanna make (Well. focused on Limbus, but also the other games as well), but I want a few more Cantos to go by first for references to prove my point,,,,

Spark Notes draft below the cut if anyone's interested in the premise: "The City, and its relationship towards those who are too gentle for it's cruelty"

Ok great, for the people still here- The sad little essay I wanna eventually make-

I think it's. TRUELY heartbreaking how much kindness as a concept seems to be punished in the city, to the point where its often an active point that the truly kind (or at least notably non-violent) characters always seem to get the shortest straws.

I won't get into too many specifics till I make the Whole Real Post, but- It feels like a few things typically happen to "Kind" people in this city

They distort

They flat out die

They become an outcast

The city beats the kindness out of them by force until they are forced to conform to cruelty

And tbh? Not loving how the community collectively treats some of them.

I mean, one one hand, we have people like Yuri- People LOVE Yuri. She never did a single thing wrong, and we can all agree-

But those who distorted or conformed? Seem to be collectively treated worse, while other OBJECTIVELY worse characters get off scot free

(*Note: Final essay will include more examples, these are the main ones I have off the top of my head)

--

For an example- Think back to Runia- I CRIED through Philip's plotline. I could clearly see the story of a man who- maybe wasn't the most courageous- who TRIED to help how he could- Got pressured so hard that he snapped and distorted under the pressure, becoming something that was beyond his own feelings, letting his distortion bury his heart to not feel that pain again- I LOVED that storyline, and then I come online and see him mocked for being some useless dipshit coward- THAT'S JUST SOME GUY- It's not his fault for being caught up in horrors beyond human comprehension (*Note: I checked his wiki for details. that man was only 24. He is younger than me. This man is barely an adult, no WONDER tbh)

--

Or my most... controversial character opinion, considering how I feel about Dongrang. Let me start with a disclaimer- I didn't read the books, and my opinion of him has exactly NOTHING to do with whoever the real life counterpart apparently is- I'm EXCLUSIVELY talking about the FICTIONAL character.

Limbus went out of their way to show that he'd, at least at some point, been a guy who was SO KIND that he was actively wasting his own money to help people/animals, and his co-workers ACTIVELY berated him about it- He wanted his tech to be healing, just so he could save people-

And then, of course, like every kind deed in The City, it didn't go unpunished- And to survive, he adapted. I'm not saying his actions weren't wrong- they were. I am, however, saying that I don't necessarily BLAME him for snapping.

He never WANTED to become like the other cruel people in the city, and even the cutscene images of him complying with it show him in visibly agony over it, and one image even shows him in tears- He never WANTED to be another cog in that awful machine, but when faced with that or utter destruction, he made a choice to survive.

Hell, half of him distorting himself was due to how guilty he felt for doing all of that in the first place-

Meanwhile, online, 90% of posts about him are "teehee I hate this piece of shit-"

--

For both of these that HAVE committed questionable acts in some way, I'm not saying I condone the things that happened. Because I don't. But I CAN feel sympathy and pity for them over the things that happened to make them what they became.

I can only imagine what the city would be like if kind people like them and others had been ALLOWED to be kind, without being punished for it.

--

And with all of this, all these characters who DARED to be kind, who DARED to fight back, even for a little bit, before inevitably being either physically or emotionally destroyed by the sheer weight of how this city works at its core- ...Some of the TRUE villains are treated better by the fandom then they are.

Canto III? Kromer- People go nuts for her- Some people even ship her with Sinclair, despite it all. She gets so much fanart. She gets SO many people ogling "ooo evil lady pretty", only for her to commit atrocities with a smile, and without a single slimmer of remorse.

Canto IV? Alfonso. Batshit insane, evil as hell- at least half the reason that characters like Dongrang ended up as fucked up as they did. You'd think "Wow- this is the person that made the person we hate the way they are, lets hate her too!" right? WRONG. Again, she gets the "pretty evil woman" treatment and people brush off her atrocities to ogle her. She also gets love by at least part of the fanbase.

And to that, WHY? I don't get it, genuinely. - Their actions?: horrible, terrible, not redeemable in the SLIGHTEST - Appearances?: You know what, I'll be honest- I think ladies are pretty (I'm Demi, but I can 100% enjoy a view) but I think these are actually two of the least attractive women I've laid eyes on. (Not the point of the post, and that's just opinion, but anyway)

And I'm not sure what causes it, honestly.

There are moments where at its worst, it almost makes me feel like the distant cruelty of The City isn't so distant after all- Those who are mostly kind, but fell into despair and tragedy, and turned into something worse get overwhelming hate-

Those who are evil, yet a bit more charismatic in approach become beloved?

Overall- Its a strange, curious tragedy of The City that the kind are often scorned and punished, and the evil stay beloved and in power-

It's just odd to see the mirror of that in the fanbase's reactions.

---

ALRIGHT GANG- That concludes my EXTREMELY rough draft of my eventual thing about The City's weird relationship with people who try to be kind, and the overall mirrored reactions of the fans-

If something in here is just rambling, or doesn't make sense, sorry- again, rough draft, but I thought it was worth sharing anyway

--

EDIT: Ok before anyone notices them not being included, I purposefully left out main LCB sinners and ESPECIALLY Dante, because though I could write about them forever, I want a little more canon content to work with before rambling about them in this post- They are a GREAT midpoint as someone who can't remember the cruelty of The City, and is now clearly struggling with the urge to stay kind in the face of The Horrors™- Honestly they were my main inspiration for this, but I DO want more info before writing about them fully, thanks <3

[cluescorner]

Thoughts on Canto V

Spoilers ahead. Also, disclaimer that I did not play it but instead watched it because I really like the story but I don't play the game anymore. I do not think playing it through would have impacted my experience, but do keep that fact in mind and let me know if you think my feelings would change if I had played it.

OH MY FUCKING GOD I REALLY LIKED IT! The characters were solid (though there are some problems), the theme of hoping for the future and allowing yourself to discover it for yourself rather than holding onto the past, and there were some incredible fucking moments.

Firstly, Ishmael. She was pretty stellar throughout. Watching her slowly degrade into becoming a mirror of the very woman she sought to destroy was heartbreaking, I felt like she actually had a real arc this canto that helped her become a less burdened person, and some of her deepening bonds with the other sinners were awesome. I particularly liked watching her interactions with Outis because Moby Dick and the Odyssey/Illiad are the two literary works from Limbus that I know well, and based on that info it makes sense that they would both understand and annoy each other. The moments with Heathcliff were also incredible because they've always had a really cool dynamic. Ishmael's relationships with her crew were also interesting and I feel like that could have easily been the best part of this cant, but ultimately that didn't end up happening (more on that later). I felt like the sudden character development 'Oh the other characters are my friends and they are my compass' thing was a BIG JUMP especially for Ishmael, but it's not a bad idea. I think it just needed more time in the oven, let Ishmael interact with the other sinners inside the dungeon and have her work together with them to get through things. Fortunately, Ishmael's VA + the Mili song really carried that ending so I still wound up getting caught up in the moment regardless. Speaking of Ishmael's VA...HOLY SHIT WHATEVER THEY ARE GETTING PAID IT WAS NOT ENOUGH!! Singlehandedly made me like this Canto so much more than I otherwise would have. An incredible performance all around, stand out moments include but are not limited to: Her ranting at the pirates about them not knowing what shame is, the euphoric hatred in her voice as she fantasizes about finding and killing Ahab, the grief as she discusses Queequeg and the hope as she sees Queequeg again, and OF COURSE WHEN SHE GOES AHAB MODE! Bravo Jang Ye-na, you carried this Canto through its weaker moments and helped the best ones become my favorite moments in this game.

Next, Ahab. I liked her a lot, fucking awful captain woman who reminds me of my old pastors. GOOD JOB MAKING THIS A FUCKING HORROR GAME THIS BITCH SCARES ME! I wish we could have seen more of her (and maybe we will in the future) because what we got was incredible. I was expecting a shitty boss but instead got another fucking cult leader. Her design is also a solid mirror to Ishmael's, further emphasizing the point that they are becoming more alike as this stuff goes on AND making the moment where Ishmael breaks the cycle of hatred more impactful. She is an incredible mirror of what happens where you allow hatred to consume you entirely, and the VA really reflects that. The only complaint I kinda have is that she probably should have been a lot more morally grey than she was. I feel like we just kinda got Kromer version 2 in terms of the role she played in the story and in Ishmael's life, granted that might change in the future so I will be very happy to be wrong if that's the case. But after Dongrang, I was expecting something a little more sympathetic or at least nuanced than 'evil cult leader captain lady hates that fucking whale and will kill her crew and makes that abundantly clear'. Again, I do like what we got so I can't complain too much but still.

I LOVE THAT BIG FUCKING WHALE! SCARY FUCKING BIG WHALE COMETH! ELDRITCH WHALE!

The Indigo Elder is so fucking cool. I wish he were here for more than 3 minutes and actually had something to do. They really introduced a man by having him tear the arm off the guy who we were struggling to survive against, said he was a Color and that he killed another Calamity, teased this really cool plan, and then...he's just waiting outside presumably 1v1-ing the whale but we get to neither see nor hear about it at all. I hope he comes back and we can see him do cool shit, because we had an incredible set-up with mediocre pay-off.

Ishmael's crew...I loved them so much I wish they were in the Canto for more than 1 level. They should have been introduced MUCH EARLIER in order to have their deaths have more of an impact. We should have been in the whale for longer, even if it meant shortening other parts of the chapter, just for the crew. Because those are Ishmael's ties and these are the people who Ahab's hatred is robbing the world of. What we did get of them was very strong, but Starbuck and Pip got nothing in terms of character moment and time. Queequeg got a little bit more (by the way I love that Queequeg actually looked like the design team at least LOOKED at a Polynesian person, I'm so jaded from other gacha games that I'm thrilled somebody actually looks like they're from the culture they're inspired from. She looks like a buffer, female version of one of my Polynesian neighbors it's great.) and it made her feel a lot more developed. She was a solid adaptation of Queequeg and her relationship with Ishmael was so sweet. The moments we got of them together were some of the highlights and it made me really want them to manage to escape together. Of course that was never gonna happen, but still. I also don't like how we don't even see Queequeg and Starbuck die. Are we supposed to assume Ahab killed them to manifest the ego? Did we kill them? I see some criticism around the fact that they stood by Ahab's side at the end and wondering why they did that. And I get that criticism because it is weird, but also that's just kinda what cult leaders can do especially when they're the only reason you've been alive for however long + you're slowly being overtaken by BAD WHALE JUICE. I 100% buy that they chose to follow the Captain because the Captain is always right and even when She does horrible things Her understanding is elevated above ours. And if Her fight is our fight, then surely it is ok for us to die here.

I feel like this is also a criticism that only I care about but why is the story suddenly like 'oh revenge is bad don't do revenge'? Like, I get it revenge is bad and that was kinda the point of Moby Dick. BUT WE HAVE LITERALLY DONE SO MUCH REVENGE AND REVENGE WAS KINDA SINCLAIR'S WHOLE THING AND IT'S PROBABLY GONNA BE HEATHCLIFF'S! Why is revenge suddenly bad and 'oh no it makes you just like the other person' no it does not Sinclair did not suddenly become genocidal because he kept trying to murder Kromer. Is revenge only bad when it's successful? IDK, I just hate narrative inconsistency and this immediately jumped out at me.

Overall, I really liked this Canto! I have my problems with it, but they are relatively minor compared to all it does well.

[strangefellows]

I’ve been shouting about it on Twitter for the past two days, so I’m going to put it here too:

CANTO IV PART 3 SPOILERS! Or, why the Yi Sang and Ayin parallels in this chapter got me extremely fucked up.

Like. Dear sweet absolute FUCK, I was getting the parallels already from the basics and the fact that both Fourth Match Flame Yi Sang (the outfit) and Spicebush Yi Sang (the eyes) make him look incredibly similar to Ayin, more than he already does with the exhaustion and similar dark hair. But then the dungeon came out and hit me like a warp train.

Like. Okay. There’s a lab. A group of people with like minds that came together to better the city and make people happy, even if it’s just in small ways, under the leadership of someone they all looked up to. Little by little, it begins to crack and crumble apart...and then it is betrayed, raided by City officials. Some people die. Some kill themselves. Some give up and let themselves be caught. Some flee. Some fight back tooth and nail til the very end. But in the end, two people are left alive...one of them completely, utterly broken; the one who had always had trouble expressing themselves and their feelings towards others, but who cared deeply for them.

That broken person ends up in a room, trapped there by their own misery, working on their project, their dream, given in part to them by the person they looked up to-- to the point they’re wasting away little by little, drowning in despair and depression, wishing for the people they loved and the place they felt they belonged. There is a person, the other survivor, who had only ever been there for their sake in the first place, that wants to keep them there forever. There is their other self, who at turns seems to want to help them and seems to want to take advantage of their pain.

Who am I talking about?

Then there is the script-- the scripts Yi Sang left for the others to read, to play out what happened.

Then there is the fact that the dungeon backgrounds are an exaggerated, overlarge tableau of the lab-office in Yi Sang’s memories, similar in no small part to the Keter Suppression’s office background -- and how that white room looks very similar to the white room of the final day in Lobcorp.

Then there is the finale of the fight with Dongrang (who spoke to Carmen by name and whose mechanic, though this is reaching, involves seeds) -- where he has one final conversation with that other self, who encourages him and comforts him and who guides him to the beautiful finale of self-realization: wings made of shimmering light. This reminded me so much of Day 50 in Lobcorp that I almost cried just thinking about it again today.

Then there is the last little bit, that final narration, the last letter from Yi Sang, where he says of the Sinners, paraphrased “I would like to consider them my friends, even if I don’t know how they feel about me”. Maybe a bit of a reach, again, but I feel as if it mirrors how Ayin feels about the Sephirah, though it might be conjecture here.

I’d even venture to point out how this whole canto has Yi Sang’s narration take forefront even over Dante’s in some places, similar to Ayin narrating his own flashbacks. 

There’s just so much there that it’s impossible not to notice after a point. I really appreciate all of it among the insane lore drops about the City and the wonderful character development of the other Sinners beyond Yi Sang, who the chapter stands on its own for without thinking about the parallels and who is now firmly one of my favorite characters in the game. 

(Not to mention the hints about Dante, which considering all of this just solidifies my theory that they’re Ayin, but that’s a whole other post.)

Nonetheless, whether or not my theory is true, this is so good, and what I feel like is just the start of them giving Ayin’s character more room to breathe and context for Lobcorp he never got before.