#and how can you miss the 'humans suck' message from jugdral and put everything on lizards?

[randomnameless]

oh boy, I just saw the post about dragons in FE are inherintly bad and I'm gonna weigh in about Jugdral cause that's where my braincells are.

as already pointed out, the evil dragon Loptous became a problem after Galle/Gair/whatever his localised name is went out of his way to travel to Archanea in search of power and found it in the form of a bloodpact with Loptous. Also nobody said Loptous is innocent whatsoever, so no idea where that came from?? (And yes, Loptous resided in the tome and descends into anyone with the fitting Holy Blood. Only at the end he's released after Julius is defeated.) Anyways, Galle returns, establish his funky new empire and everything starts going awry for several years. "When it came to that, the other group of dragons who were then living in secret came to discuss what they ought to do. So, in the middle of that discussion, their leader proposed tentatively trusting the humans and intervening, and they distributed their power to the soldiers who remained until the end--that's a summary of the event that we call The Miracle at Darna Fortress. [...] Afterward, humanity preserved the teachings of the gods AKA dragons, and for several decades, continued the era of peace. However…… as time passed, the teachings of the gods were slowly forgotten, and humanity became arrogant." - Kaga [Source]

And that's quite literally the theme of FE4! Humanity's hubris once someone gains an inch of power. In the span of barely 100 years the people went from waging war against Loptous to waging war against one another because everyone believes themselves to be in the right. (Importance of the word "seisen" and the implications it has in Japan) "Seeing this, the dragons from whom the Twelve Crusaders drew their power regretted aiding the humans, and agreed never to intervene in the human world again."

That is until Forseti/Lewyn, who helped out a little. He only sheltered Julia for several years, taught Arthur wind magic, helped out in Leonster, watched over Lene (if he's her father) and basically provided guidance for the new generation. So yeah, I guees he helped out "a little". He also delivered this banger of a quote: "Yeah... Consider this a lesson, Seliph. Good and evil can't be easily reduced to such simple, black-and-white ideals. If you must hate, hate the evil which lurks in us all, not the individual. Never forget this."

In short, FE4 is not a game about "dragons bad". Yes, there is a dragon, who is bad but overall the shittiness in Jugdral stems from people being greedy and arrogant. Galle also would have established his empire if the power came from a freaking salmon, it's all about power and what it does to people! And Julius in the end is just a vicitm of circumstances.

Oh damn, this is long but I couldn't just let this be, sorry for that. Also I wouldn't think too hard about Ced/Sety being named after the crusader. I think this is more of a case of Kaga not being subtle/being biased towards Lewyn x Erin, why else would she name her son after an crusader even if Lewyn isn't her husband. Of course, there can be an analysis in that direction but Kaga had his clear biases and I think this is one of them.

Nah, don't worry!

I'm not posting as much about Jugdral as I used to be, but I welcome any kind of discussion about the verse!

I don't know what was wrong with that person, but they apparently didn't want to talk, because if you rebuked them or disagreed, you were apparently a terf and whatnot, and then they brought their degree and I nope'd out of it because it just isn't worth it - like, seriously, I do not understand how you can brag about academics when we're talking about video games, but the more you know...

Imagine if everytime someone criticised Thatcher and some people would immediately jump on you affirming you said she was "stupid because she has ovaries" - no mate, I've never talked about ovaries, and quite frankly I don't really want to.

Anyways, I agree with everything you said!

Jugdral is the verse where we don't see manaketes and physical dragons ruining things - Jugdral is the verse where humans abuse power, let it come from a dragon or a jack'o'latern, to do cruel, petty or stupid things because Jugdralians are shitty people.

But for every Raydrick out there, we also have an Amalda, an Eyvel or a Siggy.

Dragons left, Forseti tries to help and guide... it doesn't always work - and the world would have been doomed if Manfroy wasn't a petty bastard - but his MO is to let humans deal with their own mess, he is just here to give directions.

IDK about Ced/Sety, but I thought it was maybe just a callback to the OG Crusader and founder of Silesse - since Erinys becomes Queen, maybe she would have found it nice for her child to be named after the previous Hero and founder of Silesse?

And this is mainly why I really do not want a remake for Jugdral to be announced, I know some people like that person did would, not misunderstand, but refuse even to listen or to consider what the game wanted to tell, if it can be used to prop, usually, Supreme Leader and her nauseabond take that people with scales are the reason why humans suffer.

There can be no discussion with someone who refuses to engage, and I've seen it in real life, it becomes quickly tiresome.

In real life, I cannot block those people but in the fandom?

I can cure my own experience, and yet, as we saw with FE16, it will spread around like an unattended chamber pot. At first I thought Serenes might be the last bastion of common sense, since people who played and talked about past games, who (used?) are open to discussion could kindly rebuke them, and if it ever escalated mods are here to remove their access to debating spaces if it becomes clear they do not want to engage in any discussion and are just here to troll...

But Serenes let Beta ruin the FE16 subforum for several months, with the famous "one day one bad take" and everyone who disagreed would either be harshly rebuked or straight out ignored, so...

So I don't know if it counts as gatekeeping, I hope not, but even being worried about the question raises an issue about the current state of the fandom, are you really gatekeeping when you just ask of someone who wants to debate/talk/engage to play the game or read the script? When you ask them to answer and reply with canon material, and not their latest recipe on how to make egg-less mayo?