#anyways one quote from the comics that always rocks me to my core

[azira-fucking-phale]

Nonono you guys don't get it I NEED to spread The Old Guard propaganda.

Think found family. Thinking of it? Okay good. Now think about it on steroids. THAT'S what this movie has.

You wanna know what else it has? Queer immortal soulmates. MULTIPLE queer immortal soulmates (though two of them are only explored in the comics as of right now, but we ARE getting a sequel that's in production)

There's great diversity. KILLER (literally) action sequences. GORGEOUS gorgeous gorgeous characters and character development.

And the characters themselves? We have:

Angry old immortal woman with an axe

Two soldiers who did a classic enemies to lovers on the battlefield

French guy who needs the BIGGEST fucking hug

The most LOVABLE newbie to the team who I would DIE FOR

Guys. Guys watch The Old Guard. Or read it! Or do both.

[jade4813]

Hi, Jade! I remember watching Smallville but not really being in fandom and being in tune with how people received characters. I also remember you speaking about fandom during Smallville and how they treated Lois Lane. How vitriolic was the audience, especially the fan girls, when she arrived? How was it when she came back and started having more of a role in Clark’s everyday? What excuses would they use to negate Clois? And how you you compare the treat of Clois/Lois with Westallen/Iris.

I pulled out my computer for this one because DO I HAVE THINGS TO TELL YOU.

I’m going to go ahead and put a cut here. I’ve written all of two sentences and I just KNOW this is gonna be long.

Okay, so. I wasn’t actually involved in fandom when Lois first joined the show. (And yea, but those were happy days, full of innocence and faith in humanity.) But I UNDERSTAND that things were...generally fine for those first few episodes. If she got any hate, it wasn’t much. By comparison, if nothing else. Mind you, it was known that they had only gotten the rights to use her for a few episodes, so it seemed unlikely she would be around after that. She wasn’t really a threat to any ship at that point. I mean, sure she would be. In the post-Smallvillian future. But if she only ever had those three episodes, then the rest of the show could run its course and whatever ship the show did could happen and the post-Smallvillian breakup could remain largely theoretical. Or to be left to the imagination even! It’s fine!

But then. Oh my god. Then.

Then it was announced Lois would be around for more episodes. (13 with an option for more! An option they not only never used but they didn’t even always give her the episodes she was paid to do!)

At first, I think there was tension between Clana and Clois shippers. I feel like that started from the jump. And I suppose that makes sense. Chlark fans and Clois fans got along at first. Well, Chloe and Lois were cousins, so that might have helped. And also, it was no secret that there were restrictions that prevented anything romantic happening between Clois. So Clois wasn’t a threat to Chlark. At that time (season 4), even for Clois fans, Chlark seemed more likely to happen than Clois. (Really, Clois fans genuinely were as shocked as anyone that we were actually getting our ship developed in S8. We’d been told for years it wasn’t going to happen. That Lois would be, direct quote, “out in the cold.”)

But Clana fans and Clois fans didn’t really get along. Which...if you think about it...even if you knew that Clois wasn’t going to happen on the show, TPTB did still say that was Clark’s future. That when Smallville ended, it would be at the beginning of the story we all know - Lois and all. So even if Clana lasted the whole show, TPTB were basically admitting that Clana wouldn’t get the happy ending they so longed to get. Clois would. Whether or not we’d see it on screen. That fate was reserved for Clois.

One might ask why this didn’t bother Chlark fans at that time. I think - again - they knew that in S4 there was more chance of Chlark happening than Clois. Not a GREAT chance, given TPTB obsession with Clana. But comparatively better. In that Clois had absolutely zero chance. Even in a dream sequence. So whatever threat we might pose EVENTUALLY, we weren’t the biggest problem for them at that time. Their biggest problem was that the show runners made it very clear that Clana was their jam, and that didn’t seem likely to change.

So, S4 was...comparatively...pretty smooth sailing for Chlark and Clois fans. At one point, we even did art/fic exchanges for each other. Things with the Clana fandom were...less great. They even started the whole Rock The Mythos campaign (I think that year) - they petitioned DC to break up the marriage in the comics and put Clana together. (And, frankly, there are those who believe that it got more traction than it should have done. I think Didio at the time disliked Clois, and I remember reading that he green lit the story where Lana put her panties in Superman’s bed - and Lois was written as an unreasonable bitch - to set up the end of Clois. It didn’t go over well, so DC abandoned that idea and that arc ended. Now, I would have to go back and compare dates to see if there really was a correlation between one and the other. But I BEG you not to do that to me. For obvious reasons, I’m not a fan of that arc.

... Oh, god. I had to do it. I had to know. The panties thing happened in Action Comics #822. Published February 2005. Smallville’s “Crusade” introducing Lois aired September 22, 2004. So, depending how long it takes for comics to get through the editorial process...it is possible the two are linked. Just saying.)

ANYWAY. SO THERE WAS TENSION THERE. Obviously, Clois fans didn’t take well to the Rock the Mythos campaign. Clana fans didn’t like that they were told Clois would get their happy ending. And Chlarkers and Cloisers got along...all right...because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Right?

But then. Lois continued to stick around. She continued to have scenes with Clark. Scenes that kind of hinted to their future. And...those restrictions? The ones that made it a better bet Chlark would happen than Clois? Those seemed to disappear. At that point? The shit hit the fan.

Clana fans hated Clois fans. Clois fans weren’t too keen on Clana fans, not generally thinking the ship was written terribly well. Chlark fans hated Clois fans. After all, Clois fans would get the happy ending they “deserved.” What was more, it seemed at least possible that they would get something on the show. They at least got those hints that they WOULD BE together, while Chlark had no such promises. So Chlark fans started tearing down Lois, which obviously didn’t make the Clois fans happy. Chaos reigned.

By season 5, any tentative truce that had ever existed was GONE. Chlark fans came up with the Chlois theory - the theory that Lois Lane on Smallville wasn’t the “real” Lois Lane. She wasn’t Iconic Lois Lane. She was...a placeholder. Chloe was the REAL Lois Lane. And at some point (they hoped soon), Lois would die and Chloe would take her “rightful place” in the mythos.

They made arguments like...the fact that Lois didn’t start off as a reporter meant she could never be one and would never be worthy of being one. The fact that she didn’t go to college meant she was too dumb to deserve her iconic story. The fact she wasn’t a virgin meant she was a whore. (They called her Hois. And Nois. And the town bicycle.) The fact she was shown drinking alcohol once meant she was an alcoholic. She was a bimbo. A tramp. A bitch. Emotionally abusive! Toxic! Bringing down the show! Propped up to be more important than she should be, and taking attention away from the “Core Four” (the original OTF/A/etc.)! REAL Lois Lane would never put her life on the line for a story! That’s dumb and reckless! REAL Lois Lane would be more cautious! (Srsly? Have they read a comic?) She was just stealing the storyline and focus that should have been Chloe’s!

As an aside...do any of the above statements sound oddly familiar? Like things Westallen fans hear all the time about Iris? At least Lois didn’t have the incest argument.

At the time it started, I still loved Chloe. But the more I had to argue against the idiots who would tear Lois down and prop Chloe up for the same stuff, the more I nitpicked Chloe’s behavior, characterization, etc. to point out they were being dumbasses. And my enjoyment of the character took a hit. (To be fair, I think I would have come to hate her regardless. But it certainly got that ball rolling.)

They called for Lois to be written off the show. Killed off. Some told ED to her face that they hated her character and she should die so _________ could end up with Clark. Hell, shortly after getting the job, ED went online to see what people said about her. And apparently what she read was bad enough that she admitted in interviews that she avoided the internet as a whole for YEARS after.

Of course, the comments weren’t just made about Lois. They were made against Durance, too. Death threats. Saying she got her job via the casting couch. That she was a whore. All those lovely things.

And all of it got WORSE as Lois was around more. Particularly after Chlark didn’t happen post-Vessel kiss. And when Chloe started dating Jimmy. And when Clark and Lana lived together but weren’t shown in those lovey-dovey scenes their fans wanted. And when things like Red K Clark hit on Lois. 

Theories abounded about how Lois was going to be killed off. Some truly awful fanfic was written. Some deplorable fanart was made. And on the biggest fansite at the time, it didn’t help that the site runner was initially against Lois (calling her “grandma” in a caption under a promo photo - that was another thing they said about her. That she looked like an old lady). Whether he was genuinely a Chlark fan or whether he knew that the biggest portion of fans on his site from the beginning to Lois’s entrance were Chlark fans and thus he was in their corner, I don’t know. But a disproportionate number of mods were Chlark/Chlois fans in that day, and I distinctly remember coming across a LiveJournal discussion amongst them in which they made a list of prominent and/or vocal Clois fans on the site, with the stated intention to target them and get them banned. (My name was on the list.)

Eventually, the site runner met Durance and she was nice to him. He told me that he met Mack and she was less nice to him. Whether or not that’s true, I don’t know and I don’t care, really. The point was, he all of a sudden became much more friendly to Lois and Lois fans. A few Clois fans even became mods. It became slightly better - in that I was warned a few times by said Clois fans “please please please be careful what you say because my fellow mods want to ban you and we aren’t right now, but if you get another warning, they’re going to do it.” (To which I say “okay, cool. If the Clois threads are supposed to be for Clois supporters only, tell the shitty Chlark fan who keeps posting fanart of Lois and Chloe’s servant and other anti-Clois art to stay the fuck out of the thread.”)

It was ugly. TWOP was a fucking cesspool. You have no idea. I went there once and there were 100 pages bashing Lois to every 1 praising Chloe. It was vile. But because there really weren’t that many places to go - KSite, TWOP, and DI (our private Clois message board which has a special place in my heart always) - it was hard to avoid the worst of fandom.

So as far as the comparison of Clois/Westallen treatment? In many, many ways, it’s very similar. With the exception of the “incest” argument, I haven’t heard many arguments against Westallen that I didn’t hear against Clois. It was boring. It was predictable. She didn’t deserve him. He and Chloe belonged together because they were similar. He needed Chloe/Lana; he didn’t need Lois. Blah blah blah.

That said, Iris does also get a lot of racist attacks, which Lois obviously never got. That adds a whole new dimension to the hate - sent about the character and to the actor.

Clois did have the Chlois theorists. Who are still some of the worst people I’ve ever encountered online. As far as I know, SB fans have skirted that level of theorizing, but they’ve never gone all in like they did in Smallville. I mean, there are some WACKY FREAKING THEORIES out there. But I have yet to see the wholehearted commitment to the internal CERTAINTY of a Chlois-like theory in the works. (Once the show ended, I still saw theorists SWEARING that had been the original plan of AlMiles and would have happened if they hadn’t left the show. Like AlMiles would have had any other ending but Clana and a hint of Clois, if they had ANY say in the matter. And if they didn’t, it would have been because their bosses wanted Clois. As they ended up pushing for, actually.)

I could probably come up with more if you want. But this has gotten long and I might have scared you off already! Does this help answer your question, though?

[thelobstermobster]

I was tagged by the lovely @9puzzlepiece9<3

I tag: @glitterthegaywitch @bobbyfinnstock @maderr @madimations @thenewhipmoon  @rach-chu @alpaca-punch

1. COKE OR PEPSI? CHERRY COKE (i don’t really like regular cola)

2. DISNEY OR DREAMWORKS? I guess Disney??? I mean, I really wanna say Pixar to be contrary but they do pretty much everything with Disney now anyway

3. COFFEE OR TEA? Tea. I like coffee drinks alright but I almost always would choose tea over coffee

4. BOOKS OR MOVIES? Why you gotta play me like that? My most preferred is reading a book while a movie plays but if I was stuck with only one I’d rather books

5. WINDOWS OR MAC? Mac

6. DC OR MARVEL? Marvel? I suppose? Honestly I’ve never really liked one over the other excepting the movies they make

7. X-BOX OR PLAYSTATION? Playstation

8. DRAGON AGE OR MASS EFFECT? I’ve not played either and honestly don’t know much about either

9. NIGHT OWL OR EARLY RISER? Early riser I guess. I’ve never been a night owl, but I’m not functional for at least a half hour after I wake up. I need at least 7 hrs a night if not more

10. CARDS OR CHESS? Cards, chess is only one game but there are many you can play with cards

11. CHOCOLATE OR VANILLA? Chocolate!

12. VANS OR CONVERSE? Converse, though I rarely wear them anymore due to the fact my feet have been getting steadily wider due to my collapsing arches

13. LAVELLAN, TREVELYAN, CADASH OR ADAAR? I don’t know what this means.

14. FLUFF OR ANGST? Fluff

15. BEACH OR FOREST? I really want to cheat at this so badly, but I will concede to the nature of this and answer with Beach. 

16. DOGS OR CATS? Dogs

17. CLEAR SKIES OR RAIN? Rain

18. COOKING OR EATING OUT? I like to cook, but eating out is a lot easier.      19. SPICY FOOD OR MILD FOOD? Mild food

20. HALLOWEEN/SAMHAIN OR SOLSTICE/YULE/CHRISTMAS? Halloween

21. A LITTLE TOO COLD OR A LITTLE TOO HOT? A little too cold

22. CHOOSE A SUPERPOWER! Does Magic count?

23. ANIMATION OR LIVE ACTION? Animation

24. PARAGON OR RENEGADE? I don’t know what this means either

25. BATHS OR SHOWERS? Baths

26. TEAM CAP OR TEAM IRONMAN? EHHHHHHHHH, I don’t really want to pick a side because I really don’t want to delve into the politics of the comic version and the movie one could be fixed with so much family therapy, BUT I guess team Cap

27. FANTASY OR SCIFI? SciFi

28. THREE FAVOURITE QUOTES:

"i have galaxies hidden between my bones and i will love you until the stars burn out."

- Unknown 

"One question that has always intrigued me is what happens to demonic beings when immigrants move from their homelands. Irish-Americans remember the fairies, Norwegian-Americans the nisser, Greek-Americans the vrykólakas, but only in relation to the Old Country. When I once asked why such demons are not seen in America, my informants giggled confusedly and said, “They’re scared to pass the ocean, it’s too far,” pointing out that Christ and the apostles never came to America"

- Richard Dorson, ‘A Theory for American Folklore’, American Folklore and the Historian

"Draw a monster. Why is it a monster?"- Daughter by Janice Lee                         I very nearly could not decide

29. YOUTUBE OR NETFLIX? Netflix

30. HARRY POTTER OR PERCY JACKSON? Percy Jackson, Though it feels like sacrilege.                                                                                                      31. WHEN DO I FEEL ACCOMPLISHED? Whenever I finish anything because that is not often

32. STAR WARS OR STAR TREK? Star Wars

33. PAPERBACK OR HARDBINDERS? Paperback

34. HORROR OR ROM-COM? Rom-com

35. TV SHOWS OR MOVIES? TV Shows

36. FAVOURITE ANIMAL: SO HARD TO DECIDE, I guess I’ll say a lobster because its what is expected

37. FAVOURITE GENRE OF MUSIC: Indie rock?

38. LEAST FAVOURITE BOOK: Lord of the Flies

39. FAVOURITE SEASON: Fall

40. SONG THAT’S CURRENTLY STUCK IN YOUR HEAD: DAVEY! DAVEY CROCKETT, BORN ON THE OPEN FRONTIER

41. WHAT KIND OF PAJAMAS DO YOU YOU WEAR? Over sized and often falling apart TShirts and undies, Pants go on once I’m  out of bed

42. HOW MANY EXISTENTIAL CRISES DO YOU HAVE ON AN AVERAGE DAY? Probably like 2 on an average day, more if its one of those days where all I do is think about stuff

43. SONG YOU WANT TO HAVE PLAYED AT YOUR FUNERAL: y’know I think I had an idea for one but now I have no idea. Probably something out of left field, like ‘Hallelujah’ by Jeff Buckley 

44. FAVOURITE THEME SONG TO A TV SHOW: HAWAII FIVE-O, I just jam to it so hard core?

45. HARRY POTTER MOVIES OR BOOKS? Books

46. YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OTP CANON; BUT YOU’LL FORGET THAT TUMBLR EXISTS. WILL YOU DO IT? I don’t have just one, and that seems like a lot so, no

47. WHAT ARE YOUR FAVOURITE FLOWERS? Chrysanthemums and Black Eyed Susans

48. A LANGUAGE YOU REALLY WANT TO LEARN: I think I’d really like to finish learning French just so I can say I did