#except. in zura's case gintoki is still alive.

[lotus-tower]

otose meeting teenage gintoki in the graveyard and being like... here's a young boy who looks like a ghost and who was chewed up and spat out by the same war that took my husband. the same war that changed jirocho. but look how young he is. what is there even for the war to chew on. maybe that's why he was spat back out. and then after getting to know him better, after he gets his footing back, she's like yeah. nobody and nothing would want to eat something this noxious. but she's terribly fond. and she must've been lonely after her husband died. they were three, and then one died and the other couldn't handle it. if she had ever asked gintoki, maybe she would've found out that he was in a similar position, but she would never ask him, and i don't think to this day she ever found out what happened to him. but in any case she, fortunately or unfortunately, could handle anything. that's a particular texture that she and gintoki share

[runawaykotaro]

hi i have a weirdly specific question about the benizakura arc cause im rereading it. irt katsuras "death" do you think gintoki ever ended up, even for a small portion believing kataura did die, or did he always hold faith? its probably a silly question but i keep vacillating between gintoki having strong faith in his friends abilities vs being pragmatic after his fight w nizou that he himself only got out of because of shinpachi so i wanted to know your opinion cause your meta is fun to read

Thank you!! I’m glad that you enjoy reading my meta posts! I really enjoy writing them!

You’ve posed a really interesting question, and one that I’ve been vacillating on for a while. Unfortunately, I don’t really have a definite opinion. I’m inclined to believe, however, that Gintoki believed that Katsura was alive the whole time. My rationale gets kind of long though- so the rest of this post is going to be under a read more.

This comes first from taking Gintoki’s dialogue, parallels to later confrontations in the arc, and shonen genre conventions. First, you have his initial confrontation with Nizou where he tells Nizou “Zura would never be killed by a lame-ass murderer like you.” Then, after being shown Zura’s hair, “Don’t make me repeat myself. Zura would never be killed by a nobody like you.” (admittedly, this was before Gintoki almost died but,) In the manga at least, Gintoki never contradicts this or expresses any doubt about it past this. Second, the way that Zura going missing is mirrored (paralleled? I’m not quite sure what the correct literary term would be lol) later in the arc also suggests that Gintoki believed that Katsura lived. The first moment is when Katsura jumps out of and slashes takasugi- then immediately says ‘I could not rest knowing that I had been killed by a former comrade. Isn’t that true for you as well, Takasugi?’ The second moment is Katsura and Takasugi watching Gintoki battle Nizou on the roof, while Takasugi comments that fighting the benizakura is like fighting a battleship with your bare hands. Neither of those situations DIRECTLY match up with how Nizou claiming that he killed Katsura, but they all convey the Joui 3′s confidence in the others’ abilities to survive. Each of them believes that the others can’t die except in specific circumstances. Because Katsura and Takasugi believe that of Gintoki, and because of the way the narrative hints at their understanding of each other, it implies that Gintoki would hold the same faith in Katsura even faced with the heavy realities of his confrontation with Nizou. You can also say here that Gintoki is familiar with the fact that Zura is “Runaway Kotaro” too (I’m still so glad i got this url) and knows that Zura is the kind of combatant who would play dead or hide, and doesn’t feel the need to engage with an aggressor to the end of the confrontation. That leads into the shounen genre conventions- the protagonists Believes in their Companions, unless something Actually Happened to them, in which case the Protagonist is able to Instantly Distinguish that what the antagonist is saying is True. I’m not sure how to explain it better but basically, metatextually, as the protagonist, Gintoki gets to believe that Katsura is alive as long as Katsura is alive.

Of course, if that was all there was to consider, then it would be a pretty clear cut question to answer. There are significant conflicts with those arguments. For Gintoki’s thoughts, in the manga, he doesn’t comment on Zura’s life status after “Zura would never be killed by a nobody like you,” however, the movie has the conversation with Tetsuko: ‘I can’t help you. I got beaten up, and my friend was killed.’ With this line in mind, Gintoki does seem to think Zura is dead. However, his sincerity when delivering his line is called into question when it’s revealed that he was intending to help Tetsuko all along, he was just trying to shake off Tae. But why say that to her at all? Neither Tae nor Tetsuko know Zura at that point, and saying that to Tetsuko when she’s already torn up about what Benizakura is being used to do just seems pointlessly cruel. So if it wasn’t part of the deception, why say it at all if he didn’t believe it? (There’s just A LOT to discuss with this line, and I feel like its the line that called Gintoki’s belief in Zura’s survival into question the most.) Another piece that could easily be interpreted either way is the panels after Gintoki sees that Katsura is alive:

(First of all, don’t even get me started on that line but) He doesn’t look shocked, which would imply that he believed that Katsura was alive the whole time, however, Gintoki isn’t a very open person, and his expression could ALSO be interpreted as relief, implying that he was worried that Katsura was dead.

There’s also the element of rationality, like you said. Gintoki almost died fighting Nizou- would have died if Shinpachi and the police hadn’t intervened. Nizou also showed him Katsura’s cut off hair, which is solid evidence there was a confrontation that Zura didn’t escape from unscathed. The rationality argument conflicts with the shounen conventions, because the protag usually just Believes what is correct, without regards to pesky things like logic, reason, and the possibility of death in a combat situation. However, Gintama has violated shounen conventions plenty of times before- Gintoki just being who he is stomps all over the idea of what a shounen hero is supposed to be. However, it does tend to stay pretty close to the power of peoples’ bonds- which is why I believe that the protagonist power of Companion Well-being Radar is in play here.

So there are a lot of different factors at play, and while I do believe that Sorachi intended to convey that Gintoki kept faith in Katsura the whole time, there’s a solid argument that that’s not the case. Personally, I change my interpretation every other drabble I write about the benizakura arc, so…? I can’t really give you a definite answer. I think that Gintoki could have been in a possible middle ground. Maybe he believed that Katsura was alive but was worried that he wasn’t? Or he might have been too focused on Tetsuko, Shinpachi, and Kagura to focus on thinking about whether or not Katsura was alive? I don’t really know, but I feel like it’s more likely that Gintoki believed that Katsura was alive for the duration of the benizakura arc.

[bossladytae]

How would you describe Shouyous relationships with Zura, Gintoki and Tagasuki?

Hello, sorry for the delay in responding, but the time I took allowed me to ponder over this question because it’s very broad and subjective. I can only offer thoughts from observation of Joui3 due to the fact that Shouyou’s personal viewpoint has been rarely offered to us. I hesitate to include anything else that might fall into the realm of fan fic.

KATSURA

I wish Sorachi had given more flashbacks for Katsura to gain more insight into his relationship with Shouyou. We can infer based on the things we do know, but otherwise, he hasn’t been given the same treatment as Gintoki and Takasugi, both of who were given their share of story with Shouyou. Katsura’s in the Rakuyou arc was more focused on his grandmother and childhood loneliness. We do hear him talk about how he’s always known there was something more to Shouyou; that there was an emptiness he’d see in his eyes at certain times. Makes me wonder if Katsura worried at times that Shouyou would leave him, too, like everyone else – not intentionally, perhaps, but in other ways, like death. At the same time, Katsura says, along these lines, that Shouyou seemed too perfect a person, which tells us that he knew there was something more to Shouyou. That’s probably why he wasn’t too weakened by Shouyou’s death to the point of Takasugi and perhaps not as strong as Gintoki, who can carry out Shouyou’s will no matter what. For me, Katsura has always reflected a kind of middle ground between the two, and I think it’s the same regarding his relationship with Shouyou. It’s not to say that Katsura cared too little or too much, for he was still affected by Shouyou’s death. Katsura just knows how to go on alone and that all people eventually leave one’s life, whether by death or some other way.

Katsura was obviously a very astute child; he didn’t obtain that scholarship to a military academy for nothing. Part of strategizing is noticing every little detail in your surroundings and studying people, so that you can utilize the skills of a person in the best way or pick apart the liars when hunting down traitors (although sometimes this skill fails him in certain comedic moments…!).

Shouyou was important to Katsura. It seems probable to assume that he models his current appearance off Shouyou, given the similarities. If that’s the case, it’s a nice way to keep his memory alive. It’s part of Katsura’s personality, but I think the way he conducts himself (when he’s not being silly and part of a gag) is reminiscent of Shouyou: dignified, proper, etc. So I imagine he was always watching Shouyou (we see him observing Shouka Sonjuku from the outside when Takasugi goes to challenge Gintoki) and seeking to emulate him in as many ways as possible because Shouyou was somebody great and benevolent, the best person to aspire to be (even if he could barely believe such a person could exist). Maybe Shouyou reminded him of his grandmother in the way that they both gave seemingly contradictory advice to him that others couldn’t understand (I’m thinking of the Runaway Koutarou nickname, that even Katsura’s own comrades thought it cowardly on a surface level).

Katsura kept his schoolbook, but unlike Takasugi, I don’t believe it was because he couldn’t move on. There’s never been a vibe from Katsura akin to Takasugi – at least, I’ve not felt it. Katsura acknowledges that Gintoki has moved on in the best way he can and leaves him to it. Katsura also doesn’t bear a grudge against Gintoki for executing Shouyou. I’m sure at first he was angry, too. Shocked. Numb. It’s only natural. In time, that anger moved toward the government for giving into the Amanto and since he wanted Gintoki to join him again when they first reunite, it’s clear that Katsura wasn’t blaming Gintoki. Katsura was pouring his anger over Shouyou’s death into resisting the government and fighting against it. Katsura has admitted to Takasugi that he’s also wanted to destroy this world so many times for what happened to Shouyou.

Previously, the ends justified the means. Katsura was willing to do anything to achieve his goals until Gintoki told him it was better for him to not dirty his hands anymore. I think Katsura willingly dirtied his hands for a time after the war because of the anger, even though he probably knew Shouyou would only want them to live a peaceful life and not endanger the lives of others. I’m sure Katsura didn’t want to see innocent people die, either. Still, Katsura continued to resist the new government while knowing there would be sacrifices. If his hands are already dirty, then he might as well dirty them for the sake of a new future.

He’s since decided to seek other methods of achieving reformation, but unlike Gintoki, I don’t see Katsura settling now or in the future for a life like his until he sees change he’s satisfied with. For him, this is Katsura’s own bushido, his personal way of honouring Shouyou’s legacy by actively seeking out what he believes is best for his nation.

So I feel he kept his schoolbook as something to find strength from, to remind him of why he’s doing this, aside from the desire to keep something that was given to you from a precious person. Plus, it saved his life when Nizou attacked him.

I like to think Katsura did his best not to cause Shouyou any trouble during school. From little flashback scenes and official art, we see Katsura being a good student while Gintoki and Takasugi are either bickering or else causing mischief together. This isn’t to say that Katsura excluded himself from participating in on the mischief, either. Rather, I think that because he respected Shouyou so much, he tried to act and think like Shouyou, too. Even now, he maintains samurai tradition while living freely and seeking to change the world, inspired by Shouyou’s impact on his life.

TAKASUGI

Now, we definitely saw more of his relationship with Shouyou. Takasugi revered Shouyou so much that it broke him when Shouyou died. It completely and utterly broke him.

Shouyou’s death twisted Takasugi into the man Shouyou probably wished the young Shinsuke he knew would never grow into. It’s sad looking back at their younger years with Takasugi not having the slightest clue of what was ahead. From the beginning, we see a boy that didn’t have any real ties to his family or to anyone for that matter. I doubt he had any friends except for Katsura at their school, and likely because Katsura was the only one who could fight on par with Takasugi and wasn’t a mindless buffoon like many of their classmates. Everyone else was lagging behind. Punishment waited at home when he failed to meet his father’s expectations. Disillusioned with his teachers, his school, society and what it means to be a samurai, Takasugi first finds purpose in his life when he meets Shouyou.

Shouyou is an intellectually stimulating teacher, a stronger warrior, and a loving father, all at once. Shouyou gave Takasugi the challenge he needed, the goal to reach and fight for. Shouyou taught Takasugi that he could become his own samurai – an individualistic concept, a radical idea at the time, something evidently not taught in Takasugi’s old school. There, he was told he would fight and die for his country. In Shouka Sonjuku, Takasugi is told that what matters most is who YOU decide to become and that you remain a samurai even without a lord or country to fight for, so long as you have not lost sight of your identity and purpose. Background, family status, and credentials don’t matter. Takasugi learns what it means to struggle, to want to become stronger, to be better than he is now. Shouyou makes him question everything he knows and opens up a whole new world for him. The result is that Takasugi no longer feels lost and empty and indifferent.

When you take away somebody who has such a significant impact on your life, when that person is wrongfully executed and by somebody you trusted, for a reason that you understood but could not accept…that destroys you.

Takasugi then directed his hatred toward the government and the world as a whole. A world without Shouyou was simply not worth the right to exist. Fighting against the government became personal. Takasugi’s grief and anger ran so deep that he was willing to make alliances with Amanto to take down the government – the very enemy he fought against in the war, the enemy Katsura continues to fight against along with the Amanto-allying government. Even Katsura was shocked at this revelation in the Benizakura arc.

Takasugi’s schoolbook took the brunt of the attack from Katsura during the Benizakura arc (even so, look at those lightning fast instincts from a man we barely saw in action until years later). Carrying it with him all these years doesn’t simply qualify as a keepsake – here, it’s symbolic of Takasugi being unable to let go. He has remained frozen in that moment of shock and grief over losing Shouyou that fueled his anger toward the government. The schoolbook reminds him of his loss.

Takasugi’s relationship with Shouyou was so important and precious to him that Shouyou alone became his only reason for existing. Avenging Shouyou’s death became the next reason. Gintoki was another reason, because they both knew that Gintoki would be the last obstacle in Takasugi’s way. As long as Gintoki was alive, Takasugi still had a reason – and that the worst punishment he could inflict on himself for letting Shouyou die was cutting down Gintoki, because it would cause him greater pain than himself.

The fact that Takasugi did not refute Gintoki’s statement that Takasugi would’ve done the same thing, prioritizing Katsura and Gintoki’s lives over Shouyou inclines me to believe it, as well. I believe that he understood enough of Shouyou to know that Shouyou would want the three of them to live and that he would die before letting them lose their lives. He just couldn’t accept it for a long time.

“Doubt yourself, lose your way, and become your own samurai.” Shouyou’s words. To me, Takasugi is the prime example of a student who has lost his way, more than once, but he will still be welcomed back home to Shouka Sonjuku, no matter what. It’s what he did for Oboro, and I believe Takasugi would not have acted as he did toward Oboro if not for Gintoki’s declaration that he would protect Takasugi’s soul…

…and, of course, Shouyou’s teachings and his spirit, his legacy. Takasugi honours Shouyou’s memory by caring for his first student, even though he had caused Takasugi much pain. Takasugi did have his closure in killing Oboro, and it’s not necessarily something to find joy in. It’s just how things went, what everything led to. But Takasugi exhibited greater strength and a new sense of self by listening to Oboro’s story and choosing to consider him a fellow student, deserving of a burial at Shouka Sonjuku. And that’s exactly the kind of thing I believe Shouyou would have done, too.

Takasugi is becoming his own samurai, now without the burden he’s carried all these years. He’s still going to resist the government, which is also not absolved of the crime of taking Shouyou from him. I’m certain Takasugi also envisions a better future for the country, because the Kiheitai continue to follow him and believe that he will lead them into that future. But now the memory of Shouyou will become something that uplifts him more than it shackles him.

GINTOKI

Gintoki and Shouyou. What else can I say that hasn’t already been said by many or shown throughout the manga and anime? It’s the core of the story; the driving force behind Gintoki’s actions. I think it’s quite clear that Gintoki and Shouyou had a wonderful relationship. Shouyou rescued Gintoki from death and Gintoki rescued Shouyou from despair by giving him hope. They traveled together, ate together, and camped together. There was an obvious parent and child bond there. Shouyou’s presence shaped Gintoki’s life early on and left a lasting impression.

You’d think that when Shouyou died and forcefully by Gintoki’s hands that Gintoki would be the most messed up, the angriest, and the saddest today. And I believe he was pre-Yorozuya days. You don’t go through something like that without feeling the impact emotionally and mentally. It’s the single most devastating thing that happened to Gintoki at that point in his life. It’s the fork in the road that will determine who he will become as a fully-fledged adult in post-war days.

I don’t imagine him being as suicidal as one might think. Not like Takasugi. Gintoki could have easily died as a child, but he struggled to survive, stealing from corpses. Even before he met Shouyou, he was already intending to fight back before giving into death. So I feel that because he has internalized so much of Shouyou, who would want him to live on, Gintoki would not seriously consider suicide. He’s likely been depressed before, possibly still is on some level due to his hard life, but he’s strong enough to continue onward because his devotion to Shouyou’s ways are stronger than his own desires.

He is shown to be prepared to die any time, in penance and for others’ sake, but that’s different than wanting to end one’s life for real. Being ready at any time tells me that he is prepared to go without regrets and that his sacrifice will always be for somebody else. He’s been in a war; he has killed. He has been beaten, tortured, and imprisoned for impending execution. He was let free by somebody who, in turn, paid with their life for letting him go because they saw something amazing in Gintoki. Lastly, Gintoki executed the most important person in his life. With that in mind, Gintoki has always been ready to die but also ready to live on, no matter what. He won’t easily let go of a life preserved through acts of mercy. It’s the same mercy he now extends to others if they are willing to take it (if not, he’s also shown ready to cut down those who refuse to change and continue on in their destructive ways, like Oboro in the Courtesan of a Nation arc).

Moreover, Gintoki promised Shouyou that he would look after the students of Shouka Sonjuku, Katsura and Takasugi, most notably, their souls. I believe that Gintoki lived on, knowing Takasugi blamed him for everything and that still living would give Takasugi a reason to live on, as well, because he wanted to avenge Shouyou. The only person stopping Takasugi from destroying the world would be Gintoki. I also think that Gintoki didn’t give up on believing that Takasugi’s soul could still be saved from darkness, from that beast.

As for Katsura, he was ready to die in battle by committing hara-kiri instead of being killed by Amanto, but Gintoki told him the famous quote, “If you have time to think of a beautiful end, then live your life beautifully until the end.” That sums it up.

Above all, Gintoki has been shown to prioritize what Shouyou taught him and believed over life’s hardships. Instead of giving up and dying in the cold, Gintoki stole once again from a corpse – the grave of Terada Tatsugorou and then promised Otose that he would protect her for as long as she lived in place of her husband. Gintoki is always talking about moving forward and doing the best you can. No matter who you are or where you’ve come from, protect your soul and take the chance to change for the better and live life anew again. It’s the chance Shouyou gave to him and exemplified many times, I’m sure, as Gintoki was growing up.

The fact that Gintoki threw away the study book from Shouyou says a lot. He doesn’t need it and isn’t somebody who seems to keep a ton of personal possessions. Gintoki has already internalized Shouyou’s teachings and carries on his legacy and memory by living his life according to Shouyou’s words: become your own samurai. And he has, as the whole series exemplifies. Gintoki recognizes that Shouka Sonjuku isn’t just a place but a way of life that will continue even if its founder has passed on. It’s the duty of students, after all – to learn and then one day teach others the good things Shouyou taught to them. Mercy. Compassion. Courage. Perseverance. Hope.

So I would describe Gintoki’s relationship with Shouyou as being one of pure devotion unsullied by jealousy like Oboro and revenge like Takasugi. Shouyou really was his father for a brief time, and like a dutiful son, Gintoki has taken it upon himself to carry out the will of a father whom he loved so much that he would strive never to break a promise he made with his father for the other children – especially since he knows a father would rather die in place of his children, so that they may live on.

Sakata Gintoki is the Yoshida Shouyou this world needs.

SHOUYOU

As for Shouyou’s viewpoint of his three notable students, well, again, it’s hard to say anything without bringing personal fan fic ideas into it, or “head canons,” as they seem to call it these days. I’m confident in saying that Shouyou didn’t value one over the other; he treasured the three of them, and the other students were also precious to him, even Oboro. Shouyou desired to create a school and offer a better life for the less fortunate children. He didn’t tell any of them to become a specific person or to resist the government. He simply gave them the tools to succeed in the world and the confidence to become their own person, regardless of what society tells them. Shouyou can’t and didn’t force them to become someone or do something against their will. I see him as only wishing that they will have the best life possible, a peaceful one, one where they are free and happy.

Looking back, I think Shouyou asked Gintoki to promise him to protect the others not only because Gintoki was the last person he saw prior to imprisonment…but also because Shouyou knew Gintoki would ultimately prove strong enough to carry out that promise. He knew Gintoki the longest and the best. He trusted that Gintoki would protect Katsura and Takasugi – most especially their souls. It’s why Gintoki told Katsura to find another way, essentially. It’s why Gintoki didn’t give up on Takasugi, even as they fought and bled together.  

And with the Utsuro revelation, we can assume that Shouyou, knowing the world and very universe would be threatened by his other selves, raised up three young boys with the hope that one of them or else all three would be there to stop whatever calamity would come forth. I’m very curious as to how Sorachi will resolve this final dilemma and how Katsura and Takasugi will factor in, because clearly Gintoki will have the last word. We will probably gain more Shouyou insight as the Silver Soul arc progresses.

Anyway, I hope this was an interesting post.