#granted i didn't explain to some folks outright why i use the name but if the gal who changed my name on the system for me understood

[chaoticwholesome]

fascinated by the fact that i have changed all my work info (email slack etc) to reflect my preferred name and they're just... seeing it on their screens and still calling me my legal name anyway?? hello??? can anyone hear me????

[jheselbraum]

An In-Depth Explanation on My Legend of Zelda Timeline and why It's Better Than the One Nintendo Came up With:

To Preface:

I am solely going on information found in the games, due to the way Nintendo writes Zelda games focusing on that game and that game only. I will also largely basing my interpretation on the general idea that the Legend of Zelda games are legends, and therefore 1) change over time and 2) aren't necessarily historically accurate to what factually occurred at a given point. Non-game material regardless of what Nintnedo says about it such as the Goddess Collection books and the mangas, concept art and other aspects of game development that never made it in to the final product, and especially non-official material that Nintendo either didn't make outright or has come out and said is not canon, such as the Hyrule Warriors games, Cadence of Hyrule, and the Zelda CDI games, will be disregarded entirely. If something happens to perfectly replicate a fact presented in one of these sources, it is either because there is evidence in the canon games to support this conclusion, or I haven't played/finished playing that particular game and I missed a citation from the good folks at ZeldaWiki. Continued below the cut:

The Beginning of Hyrule

The Golden Goddesses create the land of Hyrule and when they left for whence they came, they left behind the Triforce, a sacred relic capable of granting any wish. Exact specifics vary from game to game, but everyone pretty much agrees that Din, Nayru, and Farore were the goddesses who created Hyrule and that Din is associated with Power and Land, Nayru with Courage and Life, and Farore with Wisdom and Order.

I'm putting the Interloper War from Twilight Princess here, and assuming that this war is different from the war where Demise was sealed away, as only Goddesses and Spirits are known to have participated and no Chosen Hero is known to have been involved. The end result of the Interloper War was that the Interlopers (Hylian sorcerers who attempted to control the Sacred Realm) are banished into the Twilight Realm and eventually become the Twili. If we put the Interloper War here then we could also have a good reason for the Golden Goddesses to leave someone (Hylia) in charge of making sure the Triforce doesn't end up in the wrong hands, and if the Interloper War and the sealing of Demise are actually the same thing then this belongs here anyways because up next:

The events of Skyward Sword. Everything from the backstory from the opening cutscene to the ending scene where we zoom out and the Hylians are back on the surface. Whole game, right here.

We can assume that since this Zelda knows that she's actually Hylia reborn, and presumably tells other people about this, that worship of Hylia directly waned after this: she's right there, why are you praying to that statue? Also, it's a convenient way to explain why no one from the older games worships a goddess that was only invented in 2011

I also have my own personal headcanons about the Gerudo and what's up with them and the Goddess of the Sands that go here but this is a timeline post only so this is the only mention I'll make of it.

The First Kingdom of Hyrule is established after Skyward Sword, with the Hylians now dicking around on the surface. Because we know Skyward Sword Zelda knows she's Hylia, and knows she's supposed to be protecting the Triforce, and because unlike some of the other games the triforce doesn't immediately return to the Sacred Realm or disappear in some way and instead sticks around on the Goddess Statue in the ending cutscene, just chilling there, then we can use that as a nice segway into:

The Triforce Wielding Monarchy from the first couple LoZ games. I'm putting the Tragedy of Zelda I here as well, which would've kicked off Zelda going from presumably a family name that the king and queen of Hyrule kept finding when going back through their family history for baby name ideas to a name that is given to each female member of the royal family successively. But the important thing to remember is the Triforce is still physically in Hyrule and not inside the triforce wielders or in the Sacred Realm at the end of Skyward Sword, and for the first couple Zelda games the royal family of Hyrule just kinda had a couple of pieces physically in their possession. Therefore:

The Legend of Zelda, the first game in the series, goes here, a couple centuries after Skyward Sword. Being only a few generations separated from the sheltered cultists who fell from the sky and didn't know birds could be small, it's not too much of a stretch to think that a giant pig monster taking over the kingdom would cause a pretty catastrophic shift in the overall quality of life in Hyrule (more on that later). I mean, folks are living in caves in the first game, but by the time--

The Adventure of Link rolls around and most of Hyrule has like, houses and villages and stuff again. Furthermore, compounding on the whole "the royal family just has the triforce in these games" thing, the king from the Tragedy of Zelda I hid the triforce in a physical location that's just kinda on the earth? Like Link still has to do the dungeon thing to unlock it but like the king just had it in his hands.

I am very nebulously putting the War of the Bound Chest here, as Minish cap doesn't say exactly how long ago it was, though it's implied that the last time the Minish/Picori showed themselves was 100 years before the start of the game and that that event was also when they got the Picori Blade. The first two Zelda games would also be a pretty good "hey there was an age of chaos but now we're at peace" situation, what with Ganon the Prince of Darkness Pig Monster running around and then dying. Speaking of Minish Cap

Minish Cap

Four Swords

I don't think there's much to say about these games, other than they don't have the Master Sword in them, and that defeating the big bad of these games therefore does not require the Blade of Evil's Bane (Ganon also is not present in these games).

The Imprisoning War in alttp is not the Imprisoning War from OoT. It's just not. Never was. Why? The Imprisoning War alttp Ganon didn't succeed in killing the king of Hyrule. At least, he didn't kill the king before he could give the order for the sages to seal him away. Killing the king is very famously the first thing that OoT Ganondorf did and even in a legend it's hard to believe that the order of kill king then attack would be fudged too much over the centuries. It's not the same war. Hyrule still won the alttp imprisoning war, too. They did it, they sealed Ganon away. That's-- just not something that would've happened if alttp takes place after Link falls in battle during OoT. "Oh but nintendo says that--" nope, supplemental non-game material does not count for the purposes of this timeline, only the in-game stuff. The existence of a "hero is defeated" timeline will henceforth be able to exist at any point in time after you get a game over in OoT, not just in the final battle (otherwise why fucking have the final battle? Why not just have the fucking sages do it? Why have this be a separate timeline? It's not like Link killed Ganondorf in the Adult Timeline either, the sages just sealed him away! There's no difference! Why is this treated like there's a difference! Why doesn't the Child Timeline Hyrule also decline if Link not directly defeating Ganondorf in battle makes that much of a difference even if he gets sealed away!)

A Link to the Past goes here, we have a very interesting thing where by this time Hylia almost completely forgotten, but by putting alttp here we make the whole thing where the Hylians now think “A group of ancient people called the Hylia created the Master Sword” instead of “Hylia, our fucking goddess, created the Master Sword” make a lot more sense. They're just close enough to Skyward Sword to remember that someone made the Master Sword, but far enough away from it that they don't remember exactly who that was, and also you have the added bonus of the Master Sword specifically not really being needed up until this point. It's extremely cool and good writing to put this game here on the timeline, especially considering that when alttp was made, Hylia did not exist, and that this game created the Master Sword as we know it today. (As a bonus, I think that albw Lorule's Triforce was destroyed around the time that alttp happened in Hyrule)

Link's Awakening goes here. Extracanonical material happens to imply that this is the same Link from A Link to the Past, but even disregarding that (due to the aforementioned reasons) I know that this is the same guy, because one of the first things Link canonically does in this game is mistake Marin for Zelda, who he wouldn't know if this was a different time period and he was just some guy who washed up on a beach somewhere. It's the same Link therefore this game goes here. disclaimer: i initially got my release dates mixed up and in the original post I made about this initially put Link's Awakening after The Adventure of Link. with him being the same Link from those games. I do still think it fits there, this game is pretty nebulous like that since it takes place entirely within a dream sequence

A Link Between Worlds goes here, it's a direct sequel to alttp where else would it go. Bonus "link's awakening link and alttp link are the same guy" content in that there's a line that implies that alttp link and alttp princess zelda were eventually lovers, if not married outright (for a couple that's only canonically kissed once, they've been implied to have gotten married postgame enough times that Zelda should be damn grateful Link has a habit of reincarnating into different lineages altogether and doesn't always reincarnate into his own descendant like Zelda seems to), so you know, Zelda is an incredibly important person to alttp link and link's awakening link mistaking Marin for Zelda is very indicative of how close those two are in Link's Awakening, which is the same Link from alttp.

Now we have Ocarina of Time. AKA the timeline splitter. We all know what happens in OoT so we're just going to go over the different timelines this game creates for the purposes of this timeline:

The Stupid Timeline The Hero is Defeated Timeline: Caused by any game over you get in OoT, at any point, not just the final battle. Ganondorf isn't sealed away and instead just kind of wins. He just wins, and that fucking catastrophe means that even after Ganondorf eventually kicks the bucket (only Link defeated, not Zelda, by definition, so he'd never get the full triforce i don't think) Hyrule is in fucking shambles so Nintendo still gets their slow decline of Hyrule. This one only dubiously exists, in an I don't like it therefore it shouldn't sense. Personally, me? I think that you could very easily shove the "slow decline of Hyrule" and also all of the games that I put in the hero is defeated timeline into the Child Timeline instead and I'll explain why below.

The Child Timeline: Created at the end of the game when Link returns to the time he left from and warns child Zelda about Ganondorf's plan. We don't actually know what happened after that since the games never tell us. The only things we know for sure happened in this timeline in OoT are: Link warns child Zelda, and Navi fucking abandons Link. That's all we get.

The Adult Timeline: Created after the final boss fight, this Hyrule was under Ganon's rule for 7 years and is now free due to Link's actions. They remember his story.

So! Which games are in which timeline?

The Hero is Defeated Timeline: Oracle games (in either order) and Triforce Heroes that's it. Both of these could also go into the Child Timeline, as since Link returns to the point in time when he first met Zelda, that means that Link never defeated Koume and Kotake in battle since in the child timeline nothing after that point actually happens. I don't like that this timeline exists and that it's only OoT that has one. Especially since there's another loz game that canonically has an alternate timeline if you die, and that's The Adventure of Link. If you die in that game, what happens is monsters use Link's blood to revive Ganon (why they can't just do that with some from a wound I'm not sure)(also I don't know if the "monsters revive ganon with Link's blood" thing is non-game material or not, but Ganon being revived if and only if Link dies is in the game). This timeline does not need to exist, I much prefer the idea that any time you get a game over that creates a new very doomed timeline that's not gonna survive long enough to have another game in it. It wouldn't survive, unless nintendo made a game where the plot is Hyrule got it's fucking shit wrecked after the last hero of hyrule got a game over-- oh wait, they did, but the game they lost wasn't OoT it was Age of Calamity, which isn't even a canon game. The hero is defeated timeline is stupid and Nintendo is stupid for making it.

The Child Timeline: Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess. Majora's Mask is obviously OoT's direct sequel, and there's enough about Ganondorf in Twilight Princess for me to think "okay yeah it's pretty reasonable that this is the same Ganondorf from OoT." There's nothing to say that Hyrule's slow decline (and the Oracle games and Triforce heroes) can't be in this timeline (lord knows the Gerudo aren't anywhere to be found in Twilight Princess, it'd fit in nicely with that), and I think it would thematically work better if the Hyrule from OoT would've ceased to exist entirely regardless of what timeline they're in, because the Hyrule from OoT doesn't fucking deserve it. They sent a child to do their dirty work for them and didn't bother making sure he had a home to go back to in the kingdom he saved. I think it's really neat if the consequences to that are either "slow decline" or "incur wrath of the gods." It also plays better with schlorping everything back into one timeline later. The order of the games in the Child Timeline if we assume that Hyrule slowly declined in this timeline is: Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, Oracle games (in either order), Triforce Heroes.

The Adult Timeline: Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. Instead of a slow decline Hyrule is fucking annihilated by the gods, at the end of Wind Waker Link and Tetra!Zelda set out to found another Hyrule, which is well established by the time Spirit Tracks rolls around.

The Schlorping of the Timelines: At this point I do think all these separate timelines converge, and I think that that happens when the Zonai start showing up. Rauru, the last of the Zonai, founds Hyrule, which is weird when you think about it. I mean, this is only 10,000 years before BOTW, and we know that this sexy goatman is neither the pouty lipped Justin Bieber haircut having Link from Skyward Sword nor is he the Link from Wind Waker, the only two "founders of Hyrule" we know of (and, let's be real, in both those games we know Zelda did most of the founding). He's not even a link, though parallels abound, the Link of that era is the red headed goat boy. So we have two options and neither really has in game evidence but they both make sense with what we know about the other games and what makes sense with the timeline in general.

Option 1: Hyrule declines in every timeline, that's how we all get back on the same page, botw is just inevitable. This plays very nicely if the Child Timeline hyrule slowly declines and the Hyrule that WW Link and Zelda found is New Hyrule in a separate area from where the original was, but it doesn't play as nicely with things like "wait is it also inevitable that the zora and the rito exist at the same time?"

Option 2: What the Zonai were doing when they descended from the sky was schlorping the timelines back together. I mean they're basically demigods who just kind of have a temple of time, and founding hyrule seems like something you'd have to do if you're trying to hot glue three disparate timelines together and there's only really a Hyrule in two of them.

None of that really matters though, the main point is that this improved timeline sets up a decent sandbox for the converging of the timelines (it's better than "it's just been a really long time guys" at least)

The Imprisoning War from totk goes here, I don't think this is the same Imprisoning War from OoT, I do think that this was also The First Great Calamity and that either Rauru's kid (if he and sonia had a son) or his son in law (if they had a girl) was just a dick to the Sheikah, since Rauru has way crazier shit than the Divine Beasts and wouldn't really have a problem with a bird that can glass a mountain since he has mesoamerican scifi monsters that can hollow out the earth.

Breath of the Wild

Tears of the Kingdom

Again I don't think I have to explain these too much, their position in the timeline is pretty clear.

And there you have it! A detailed explanation on why I think my timeline works better than Nintendo's, at least from a narrative standpoint.