#grundpfieler

[alto-tenure]

Fun thing as someone that came to Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright years after the fact. Watching a playthrough after knowing the twist at the end I am just left thinking "Wow - Arthur Cantabella *really* blamed Eve". There's the presumably fairly intense social isolation what with how the Shades apparently didn't stop Jean so uh probably high/hypnotized to the gills. The fact is that Eve is fitting the practical work of Bezella in being the "source of "magic" as the person directing the shade

God do I hate Arthur Cantabella. I don't say that easily -- or at least, with most characters I start off hating I start coming around to a bit. But I watched the crossover through Let’s Play first and then played it myself after playing the entire PL series and even though it's been a year since then I still can't let it go. He sucks. So much.

(This is...probably gonna get a little long. Detailed character dive into my interpretations of Eve, but also some additional analysis of Arthur, Newton, and Espella. Content warning for discussions of suicide in terms of talking about canon events.)

Eve's the only one who really divides her role as the Great Witch (the person responsible for witchcraft) away from the role in general of Bezella (the culprit behind the Legendary Fire). And I really can't blame her for it! The thought of being responsible for the deaths of an entire village is...well...overwhelming for all of the characters involved. It drove Newton to suicide; it drove Arthur towards Project Labyrinthia; it caused Espella a multitude of mental health issues including being suicidal; and Eve coped with it by convincing herself she couldn't be responsible.

I don't really like the "Eve was actually the person who rang the bell" twist, more so for how it undermines Espella’s suicide attempt that comes directly afterwards. I've seen other people's frustrations, and I think it makes sense for Espella to be driven to suicide under the crushing weight of everything. After all, we know Espella has been in a delicate mental state since at least the end of Golden Court where she's ready to sacrifice herself. It makes sense that learning she's the reason Labyrinthia exists is what breaks her, even with the knowledge that magic isn't real and none of those people actually died -- it's still her fault, and she still believed those deaths to have been real, as well as them still impacting people! Like, regardless of who ACTUALLY rung the bell, it's not even the biggest contributing factor to Espella's issues. Labyrinthia was still constructed for her because of her trauma response. I think the twist that Eve ~actually~ rang the bell isn't really relevant, and only serves to make Espella's suicide attempt weaker narratively, as from some perspectives the twist is just there to shift everything away from Espella and onto Eve.

The fact that Eve didn't snap sooner is a miracle, honestly. Newton's death clearly mattered to her, regardless of her personal feelings about Arthur, and his presence was probably why she continued to stay for so long. We do know that the two of them had grown distant -- Newton says as much in his suicide note. And...well...Eve does have a great many reasons to hate him just as much as she hated Arthur. He is just as complicit in forcing Eve into her position as Arthur was. But in the end, she still cared -- or at least felt conflicted enough -- to stay as long as he was alive.

His death is an interesting turning point for her, but I think she saw an opportunity with the exposure of the Bell Tower -- it was an opportunity to make a clean break, to expose everything for what it really was, a reminder of the world that used to stand before Labyrinthia.

I think it's important to note that both Eve and Arthur's plans...are not the most well-thought out. Eve clearly didn't think anyone cared enough about Espella to intervene on her behalf, and hadn't counted on Layton and Luke's emotional attachment. Arthur on the other hand seemed to believe Labyrinthia would operate completely fine independently of him, especially since he probably intended for Eve to take the fall as the Great Witch and there goes the two topmost officers in Labyrinthia. Who's next in line, Barnham? I'd frankly like to see him try.

I do think Arthur always intended for Eve to take the fall; I don't know if he knew the truth the whole time or if he was just refusing to believe Espella could have done it until they revealed it was actually Eve who rung the bell (they SAY he knew the whole time, but I wouldn't exactly call him the most reliable narrator). He put her through a lot. So did Newton.

The game takes great lengths to say that Espella did nothing wrong, that she shoulders the blame for no reason.

Once again, I circle back around to the question of whether "which kid rung the bell" is a question worth asking in the first place. To me, regardless of which child rung the bell, the fault still lies with Newton and Arthur, for being the ones to unearth it in the first place. And as the adults in the situation, they should have handled the aftermath better.

[theriveroflight]

I was expecting the Eves to be Sissel and Sissel just with Sissel (human) being the one to die and get ghost powers. Though Espella and her mental health challenges do fit with Sissel's presumed difficulties. Going to be interesting to find out how this all happened

I'll admit that I didn't consider that avenue -- Eve Belduke already has some overlap character-wise with Yomiel to a point where it made more sense in my head to compare them as opposed to Fiansissel, who is...well, one of the most blatant examples of fridging out there, in my opinion. (And I'm a DC comics fan -- there's a lot to choose from.)

I do headcanon Fiansissel to already have been struggling with depression before Yomiel's death sent her over the edge, so that does, indeed, line up with Espella’s issues. My thoughts were more "how can I make these character arcs even a little bit line up" more so than a 1:1 replication of Sissel and Yomiel's relationship, for both senses of "Sissel".

[theriveroflight]

"When Eve dies to save Espella, she doesn't expect the chance to come back." The Ghost Trick inspiration is just straight up on the sleeve isn't it. Possibly with the big change being that it wasn't Yommel that dies and gets ghost powers.

I never claimed any subtlety, did I? ;) If you read it having played Ghost Trick, it should be very immediately obvious that the Eves are meant to take Sissel and Yomiel's place narratively. You caught me :P

Without spoiling the fic -- Eve Belduke's death isn't quite what you'd expect. I've left this in sort of an ambiguous space -- I believe the canon events of Ghost Trick could have happened and we're in the new timeline for Ghost Trick. But those events took place in definitely Not England, so they won't be relevant here regardless.

[alto-tenure]

But then I tend to slot Eve as fairly badly socialized heroic antagonist and Arthur as the actual villain. Just on grounds of - Eve apparently going out of her way for Jean (Yeah, remove the drugs from the house, no need for a second suicide, letting Jean stay in the house) and in general deciding that the townwide illusion has to end. Arthur meanwhile - well he is the one that apparently set off the golden statue incident with his "story" (especially as he callously using Belduke's home for it)

(Part one here, because I didn't see there was more until I was already answering the first ask.)

I think the ending of the game is best assessed looking at it as a Layton game; there are plenty of revenge-seeking people in Ace Attorney, but it’s easier to see the trends looking at Layton villains in comparison to AA ones.

Since Unwound Future (and arguably earlier, though I wouldn't call Baron Reinhold or Anton truly villains imo), there's been a formula of sorts with two antagonists, one generally lower-level than the other, with different levels of justification & narrative forgiveness. A brief summary:

Unwound Future: What both of these characters did was messed up, but they both come away regretting it. Even though they'll face legal consequences, the narrative is still forgiving of both of them.

Last Specter: Jakes is hopelessly corrupt and gets his Deserved Comeuppance, and we have no idea about Descole’s deal.

Miracle Mask/Eternal Diva: This guy also did some messed up things, but he was being manipulated by Descole, so can you really blame him?

Azran Legacy: A lot of people have already spoken at length about why Bronev's turning point feels like too little too late and more. I think you need to at least be in a position to understand why Layton would choose to forgive him in the end, even if you personally can't.

Azran Legacy came out after the crossover, though they were only a few months apart, which is interesting considering the thematic similarities among their antagonists. (Cut for getting into AL spoilers.)

I agree with you about primary vs secondary antagonist here; I'd argue Eve is more like Descole (revenge; dead family; several different personas/identities) and Arthur is more like Leon (terrible awful father; runs the show; responsible for a great deal of what goes wrong). I think where the crossover goes wrong in comparison to Azran Legacy is in how much Arthur is unequivocally accepted back into the fold. Going back to our comparisons here...Des is never going to forgive Bronev, in my opinion, for the murder of his wife and daughter (among other wrongs). Hershel forgives Leon because he is in a better position to; he was not as personally wronged, and the theme with him is forgiveness. Hershel forgiving Leon is, dare I say, necessary to emphasize the theme of forgiveness in the series, and it would be more out of character for him not to.

But everyone forgives Arthur. Now -- Arthur may not have been directly responsible for anyone's deaths, but what he did was still deeply unethical, and while I am a firm believer in restorative justice over punitive justice, I think it doesn't have to be the case that Eve especially forgives him. Getting forgiven by Espella is important, and as much as I dislike it, it is in character for her. And the emphasis on embracing forgiveness and sympathy and understanding is a Layton theme as a whole.

Ace Attorney is a game about how systems can fail people, but it's not a game in which you can fundamentally change that system just by playing. It's frustratingly realistic in that you can only get rid of corrupt people and not the system that corrupted those people in the first place -- Kristoph Gavin, Gant, von Karma, and even the main antagonist of DGS. And there is also often a divide in AA between the antagonist who did some shit but ultimately is misguided (people like Ini Miney and Acro and Adrian Andrews and Godot) as opposed to the antagonist who is unrepentant and in some ways seeking something more (Matt Engarde, as well as the aforementioned corrupt legal figures).

And I think the collision here between the "Ace Attorney antagonist formula" and the "Professor Layton antagonist formula" in terms of how Eve and Arthur are ultimately written is interesting, because I think ultimately how they're written falls more into how Layton tends to treat its antagonists, but Eve leans slightly more towards the category of "Ace Attorney antagonist who massively screwed up and now has to face that" more so than the analogous Layton category.

But ultimately, as you've said here and as I implied in my previous response...Eve's plans would have been bad for Espella, but they would have been good for Labyrinthia. Arthur's plan involved just...carrying on with the way things were, content to let Espella believe what she would and to keep the fantasy going. It's why Layton and Luke present a more immediate threat to him -- though I don't doubt Eve had some hand in convincing him what exactly to do about them so that she could help Layton escape to the woods.

And in the end -- Eve never wanted Espella dead. She wanted Espella to see the truth, to see the gravity of what was done. We see that in all the times she bails Espella out of bad situations -- aboard the ship, in the courthouse, and at the Bell Tower.

[alto-tenure]

I think we're in agreement mostly except for two points. 1) I do feel that Eve probably was actually betting on Layton and Luke getting emotionally involved with Espella... And for Espella to go through the trap shoot through her framing case. Then Phoenix and Maya happened. 2) The Beldukes consistently keep Jean away/out of witch stuff. it didn't start as a Eve idea I think. But I tend to add "Things are going to plan. Not." To NPC actors. And one of the fun things with the game is finding out

I don't think Eve actually has that much investment in Jean Greyerl's well-being? At least, not on her own. I think even without the knowledge of the fact that Jean fully believed she was culpable for Newton's death, Eve has some level of resentment towards Jean for being the child Newton actually took care of and loved, as opposed to her, effectively left to take care of herself. So I think without Newton actively working to protect Jean, Eve doesn't really have a reason to care about her -- and actually has more reason to resent her. I don't think she actively wanted to include Jean meaningfully into her plans, but the opportunity did fall into her hands...and framing Maya is the perfect way to make sure Phoenix gets to the truth.

I've always interpreted the situation with Kira as Kira acting independently -- I don't think that trial was meant to be the one where Espella was taken out. I imagine that Arthur let Eve in on his plans to fake his death and end the Story, and Eve took one look at those plans and shoved her own scheme into the cracks where it would fit -- just enough to pull out the rug from underneath him and undermine everything he wanted for Labyrinthia's future. Both Fire Witch and Golden Court were unplanned, though I do think to some extent there would have been a different incident that's basically the same as Golden Court to get Layton into the Eldwitch Woods somehow -- without his incursion into the woods, it wouldn't have been possible to find out about the Bell of Ruin.

(And for reference, I agree -- Eve is right to want Labyrinthia exposed. We see the seams from the very beginning. Espella is paralyzed by the thought she might be a witch. Labyrinthia's society is what drove Kira to frame Espella and want her dead; Labyrinthia is what killed Newton Belduke; and Labyrinthia nearly killed Jean and Espella. Is it really any surprise that after Newton's death, Eve was driven to such dramatic lengths and wanted to tear it all down?)