#i don't remember if she even mention Visenya by name

[allovesthings]

Question, is Visenya, in book canon, actually one of Arya's hero or is this a tv show only thing ?

I genuinely can't remember a moment where Arya thinks about Visenya the way she thinks about Nymeria (or even the way she talks about the Dragons themselves) or even Wenda the white fawn.

[darklinaforever]

Some : Daemon is undeniably a deeply misogynistic man, because he refers to his first wife, Rhea Royce, as a bronze bitch, and Alicent Hightower as a whore cunt ! (Show) / Daemon is undeniably a deeply misogynistic man, because he refers to his first wife, Rhea Royce, as a bronze bitch. (book)

Me :

Daemon wields Dark Sister, a sword that was forged to wield by his ancestor Visenya Targaryen, great warrior/first wife/queen, sometimes sitting herself on the Iron Throne alongside her brother/husband Aegon I. So Daemon literally carries on him, almost h24, the sword of a woman, a woman warrior, without any apparent worries. Moreover, Daemyra intended to name their daughter Visenya, showing that she is a very appreciated Targaryen figure, as much of Rhaenyra as of Daemon (this also counts for the series, as the creators named/talked about baby Daemyra as baby Visenya). Not to mention that Daemon married Laena Velaryon, having claimed and mounted Vaghar, literally the greatest dragon in the world. He then married Rhaenyra, the youngest rider in Targaryen history, described as being a woman of character, not to mention being the future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, of whom he would become the greatest supporter, and whom he would crown with elsewhere himself when the time comes. Also, it's pretty obvious that his daughter Baela (In the book this time. Although I remember it, all the other elements mentioned before Baela are also present in the book in addition to being in the series) "described as her father's worthy daughter" is a tomboy-like free spirit, which Daemon doesn't seem to see as a problem at all. Not to mention that she literally slept before the wedding and Daemon didn't see fit to punish his daughter for it, which is what many men of that era would have done.

So... I don't know about you, but all of this information ties in a bit with the idea that Daemon is a deeply misogynistic man. Obviously he particularly likes badass women, and is one of the rare men capable of bowing to his wife and accepting that she has a status infinitely superior to his (being QUEEN) in a society that is justly deeply misogynistic and patriarchal. Which is no mean feat in the world of ASOFAF.

But no, he has to be a misogynist for insulting Alicent Hightower, (Joke, this woman literally deserves all the worst insults possible and imaginable. I should also point out that as much as Daemon insults Alicent in the series, it doesn't seem to be the case in the book, where it is described that Daemon actually treated Alicent with all the courtesy due to her as a queen, even if he clearly hated her) and Rhea Royce, a woman he hates (and who hates him with reciprocity) and who he was, I recall, forced to marry at the age of 16. A woman he avoids like the plague, letting her live her life, and whose marriage he has tirelessly tried to annul. (In the book, Daemon didn't kill Rhea Royce. So, he completely left her alone. And even if he did kill her in the show, that doesn't make him a misogynist, that has nothing to do with it. Also, the fact that Daemon killed Rhea Royce as a last resort - and I emphasize "as a last resort", because if Daemon really wanted to kill Rhea Royce, he would have done it years ago - so he could finally marry someone wanted, that doesn't take away from the fact that he spent most of their marriage away from her, leaving her to do whatever she wants)

But obviously these two examples are enough to prove that Daemon is deeply misogynistic man, as if men or women, we ourselves had not already insulted people we hated, regardless of their sex, especially bitch or whore, as if it were not classic insults used often...

[backjustforberena]

I don't think that naming a child after one of the conquerors or former monarch was indicative of wether that child would be the heir, it was meant as an honour (the way many noble/royal families reuse the names of prominent ancestors). Rhaenys being named after one of the conquerors didn't necessarily mean aemon wanted her to be heir since her birth, especially if he had plans to maybe have a son later that he'd name his heir (whatever his name might've been). Most of the time it's the first son that gets the name aegon but not always. Aegon's first grandchild was named rhaena, after queen rhaenys, and his second grandchild was aegon the uncrowned. Jaehaerys and alysanne's first child was named aegon in honour of both aegons that came before him. Like you said, baelon named his 3rd child aegon. Then there's rhaenyra's daughter visenya and son aegon, named after the conquerors but weren't meant to rule. By that point there were more kings to name sons after, like viserys (rhaenyra's son) and jaehaerys/jaehaera (helaena's twins). Sons/daughters being named after former monarchs happened a lot in this family.

>Aemon and Rhaenys both refer to her first pregnancy as being a boy. I don't think that's anything significant. Obviously, it would be a wish of Aemon and Corlys, and everyone else.< i agree that wishing for a boy right from the first pregnancy is universal in this setting and rhaenys having a son would put everyone at ease but it still stood out for me. I'm not sure why but i think there might've been more behind it than the typical wish for son. Part of me wants to think aemon wasn't like his father but part of me thinks that even if he didn't see anything wrong with rhaenys being ruling queen, he was realistic and thought that everyone would be more accepting of an heir through female line than a female heir. As we saw with the great council, laenor's claim was more valid than rhaenys's in most lords' opinion; however laenor's claim through the female line was not a match for the all male line of jaehaerys-baelon-viserys. I'm not saying aemon expected a rebellion if rhaenys became queen but ... 🤷‍♀️ so i'm not 100% sure of what my opinion on this is yet lol

>It's funny, even if Jaehaerys was stressed about Rhaenys as being the only heir of his son, Aemon never seems to fall out of favour.< Well aemon was his golden boy, he could've never fallen out of favour 😉 i think they probably talked about it, jaehaerys was pushy but i don't think they would've fought over it. Like i said, maybe jaehaerys suggested a marriage between rhaenys and (my god i can barely write it) baelon, after alyssa's death, or between her and viserys. But aemon clearly didn't care for that. This actually makes me think what went through J's head when rhaenys told him she was marrying corlys. I don't think anyone ever imagined jaehaerys would outlive both his sons, do you think that at some point he made his peace with not having a say in aemon's succession? Cause he thought he'd probably be dead long before that became a problem? Maybe he still had hope aemon and jocelyn could have a son? After all alyssa and alysanne were still able to get pregnant in their late 30s and early 40s, so why not jocelyn? When he gave rhaenys and corlys his blessing did he think they would be queen and king one day or did he think rhaenys would go on to become lady of driftmark and he could keep on wishing for a male heir?

If i remember correctly rhaena started the tradition of the craddle egg with her siblings but as you said, aemon and his siblings didn't get one (or it wasn't mentioned). Aemon, baelon and alyssa claimed adult dragons. Out of the rest of their siblings only saera is mentioned to have tried to claim balerion i think, but she was caught before she could try. It's not mentioned if rhaenys and her cousins got an egg either. Some fans believe that jaehaerys didn't allow his younger children (girls especially) craddle eggs or dragon claiming, only aemon (the heir), baelon and alyssa (the spare and his wife). The reason is if any of the girls got a dragon and then was married off to another house it would mean the targaryens wouldn't be the only dragonlords. Which is kind of what happened with rhaenys and her kids; luckily for everyone the velaryons are very loyal to the targs. And sooner or later their tree branches end up tangled with the targaryen's anyways.

Can eggs die? I honestly thought they sort of stay in suspension until something or someone makes them hatch. But i honestly have no idea

This got super long, sorry 😂 just in case you celebrate... happy holidays!

I know that naming a child after the conquerors is not always indicative. Baelon named his third child "Aegon", with Viserys it was his first son but not his heir, with Rhaenyra it was her fourth son and that was less because it was the name of a Conqueror, and more to spite Alicent. However, I do believe that Aemon was making a statement, calling Rhaenys "Rhaenys", simply because of who Aemon was and how Alysanne reacted to it.

Aemon would be aware of the precariousness that would come with the eldest being a female. He had an older sister, Daenerys, who his mother spoke of as being heir, but who unfortunately died before the position could be confirmed, and that made Aemon next in line. And then we have Alysanne heralding Rhaenys as "Queen to Be" as soon as she is born. From this, I don't think Rhaenys was ever a placeholder for a male heir. If Aemon had a son, then he had a son after her, but there's little to say he would have passed his daughter over for that son. I suppose it's a personal headcanon of mine, but names are important.

The thing with there being a rebellion over Rhaenys's ascension is it's actually fairly unlikely if you plan accordingly. Because who would Rhaenys's competitor be? With the Great Council, you have all of Baelon's line. But if Aemon succeeded his father, then Baelon's line is futile. If Rhaenys is made Princess of Dragonstone and all the lords swear to her, including her cousins, who would they go with instead? Her son? I don't imagine Laenor being influenced in such a way. And I don't know where he'd get his allies because to invalidate his mother's claim would, potentially, be to invalidate his own. And, let's say Baelon's line was feeling lucky... it would be Daemon, not Viserys. Viserys doesn't want the Throne. And Daemon is a second son who is potentially... what, sixth or seventh or something down the line? And, again, with what strength? Daemon owns nothing except his dragon. It's easy to see rebellion when Jaehaerys and Aemon, to an extent, are alive, but once you have Rhaenys sworn into those positions of power, it's hard to dislodge her.

When it comes to Corlys and Rhaenys's marriage, it's all up for interpretation. He says: “You could not have chosen a better man,”. Now, I don't think he expects to outlive both his sons either. What father would? But the more cynical tend to read this as "if it's not a Targaryen, you make it easier to dismiss you", whilst I sort of read it as genuine. Rhaenys has found an honourable man and one she loves which is great. You could even extend that and say that Jaehaerys is pleased that she's found a husband with such resources that will help her secure her place, when the time comes. Honestly, it can be read in all the ways. We just don't know.

All good points about the dragon eggs. Interestingly, is that, it really didn't matter if Rhaenys got a dragon if she was going to be Queen. Her children would be dragon-riders, yes, but they would be bound to the Crown through their mother. She would be matriarch, and still hold control so they wouldn't be going outside of the house necessarily. It's not as if House Velaryon would be a separate entity to the Crown in the way they are with Viserys as King. Because Rhaenys would be Lady of Driftmark, Lady of House Velaryon and Lady of House Targaryen, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Her children would belong to that house as well. It's only because she was denied the throne that she had to give herself up to her marital house completely and we get wholly Velaryon dragon-riders.

And happy holidays!