#i really do just think it's her inexperience in the music industry etc

[sage-nebula]

"Suffer No Fools" - Shiver vs. Marina Analysis

It's been a few days since "Suffer No Fools" released, but I wanted to go ahead and release my analysis of Shiver's and Marina's verse since that's the one that has caused the most discussion within the fandom. I've seen a lot of debate over Marina's section in particular, with people unsure whether she was being sincere or sarcastic, and I think the actual answer is a little more complicated than one or the other, at least with regards to the first couplet of lines both she and Shiver sing. Of course, people are free to interpret this song however they wish, but after seeing numerous interpretations I personally didn't vibe with, I just wanted to put my own out there, breaking it down line by line.

So! Here we go.

Exchange 1:

Shiver: "Your haunting voice -- there's no escape. How nice it must be for your fans." Marina: "You're far too kind! I love your vibe. I can learn so much from your style."

Analyzing from dialogue only:

Shiver is insulting Marina's voice by calling it haunting and saying there is no escape, insinuating she wishes there was one. She says how nice it must be for Marina's fans, again implying that she isn't one.

Marina says that she loves Shiver's vibe, which on the surface could be a compliment, but given the context (a music battle) it could also be a Mean Girl "ooh I love your [thing] :)" passive-aggressive drawing-attention-to-something-ugly insult. More direct though, is the "I can learn so much from your style"; you can learn what not to do from someone just as much as you can learn what to do from someone. Marina's engaging in plausible deniability here.

HOWEVER. Lyrics are NOT the only thing that need to be analyzed from this first verse, which is arguably the MOST important exchange between these two. Instead, we need to look at how these lines are delivered.

Shiver is singing in a traditional Japanese folk singing style, specifically a style based on Shima-uta, which her voice actress has a background singing in. Unfortunately, I don't know the actual term for this style of singing, only that it's not kakegoe, something Shiver also does that is different from this. Anyway, in these lines specifically Shiver is singing in her Shima-uta style, a style that she has presumably been practicing since she was a small child, a style that is probably culturally significant to the Hohojiro clan. Singing in this style is not something that just anyone can do. It's completely different from singing in a (for lack of a better word) "western" style. The way you breathe is completely different. The way you incorporate your voice into your breathing is completely different. So by singing in this style, which Shiver has been doing practically her whole life and which, presumably, only she of the four there can do, Shiver is FLEXING on Marina regardless of what lyrics she chooses to sing.

But then Marina, who grew up under the domes in Inkadia, who presumably has never heard Shima-uta before she started listening to Deep Cut and heard Shiver sing, who presumably has had absolutely no training whatsoever on this style of song . . . mimics it perfectly and flexes on Shiver right back.

Could Marina's words to Shiver be interpreted as passive-aggressive in turn? Yes. But does it matter? No, not really. Because in this first verse, Marina's ACTUAL comeback is to take the style of singing that Shiver has been perfecting her entire life and throw it right back in her face despite having never (as far as we or Shiver know) practiced it herself. Shiver was flexing by presumably doing something Marina couldn't do, only for Marina to do it flawlessly, being every bit as divine with a voice so fine as Pearl said she was previously. Marina says "I love your vibe" so she takes it. Marina says "I have so much to learn from you" but does she really, when she can already do exactly what Shiver can, and has, just now, right in front of her?

And Shiver noticed, hence:

Exchange 2:

Shiver: "You remind me of my neighbor's little daughter . . . What's that saying? 'Octo see, octo do.'" Marina: "Glad you approve -- your praise has left me moved. Thanks to your notes, I'll find my groove!"

Shiver drops the Shima-uta singing, because now there's no point. Marina can also sing in that style, so it's no longer a flex. Shiver lost ground on that one, so instead we're back to the same (again, for lack of a better word) "regular" style of singing that everyone else is using. For that reason, we can go back to analyzing purely based on the words alone.

Shiver is calling Marina a copycat, essentially, because Marina copied her Shima-uta singing style in the previous verse (hence why Shiver had to drop it, as previously noted). Marina then gives her "glad you approve -- your praise has left me moved" . . . basically noting that by Shiver accusing her of copying, Shiver is saying that Marina -- someone who just tried the singing style off the cuff right there on the stage for the first time -- was just as good as Shiver, someone who has trained in that style her whole life. The audience saw for themselves that Marina was able to emulate the style, but Shiver saying, "you copied me!" is basically admitting that Marina was just as good as her in Shiver's own eyes, and Shiver is a pro. That's Shiver's aggravation handing Marina the win and Marina smiling wide as she accepts it.

Exchange 3:

Shiver: "Oh, look at the time. Isn't it getting late?" Marina: "Not at all! I could go on like this all night long."

This one doesn't even really need an analysis. For all that she prides herself on being "so cool even sharks call her cold-blooded," Shiver is known for being easily irritated and riled when she's losing due to her competitive nature. Marina successfully got under her skin, and this is her trying to end the battle fast because she didn't have any further comebacks. Marina, meanwhile, gives the classic "I could go on all night" because she's not riled at all, and is instead perfectly comfortable in this environment, knows what she's doing, and has had the upper hand from the start.

It goes back to another post I made about Experience vs. Inexperience. Shiver and Frye are still new idols, whereas Pearl and Marina have been at this for a long while. And while off the stage Marina is a sweet, kind, gentle person who will go out of her way to help others, and can sometimes be a little spacey or naive, she's also a 23-year-old literal genius who has been in the music industry for years now and knows full well what a rap / music battle is and knows her way around a stage. Personally, I found it to be a little infantilizing to insinuate that she "didn't realize Shiver was insulting her," when not only do I think she knew full well, but also she was the one with the upper hand not because of sick burns (that's Pearl's department), but because of sheer innate musical talent.

But those are just my thoughts! Everyone else is free to have their own.

[datingadviceonreddit]

First post on Reddit. Figured I'd try and make it a good one. This is going to be pretty long, so stay with me. I'll try and not bore you to death. No promises though. You've been warned.IntroTo give you, the readers, an idea of my background and where I'm coming from. Also human beings are inherently curious, right? :PSo I'm 35, a college student (an even longer story haha), single and never been in a what you folks call an LTR. Or hooked up (I'll get to that later). At this point I'm sure a lot of people are wonder wtf is wrong with this guy. Did I get hit with the ugly stick? Do I have a hunched back?Resemble Emperor Palpatine after playing with too many matches as a child? ....Afaik, nothing. Actually got a lot of positive comments from a multitude of people, although that's always subjective. I workout around 6x a week so keep myself in a good, physical condition. I'm not a big guy, but athletic sure. I still play football (soccer), love to read, play music, speak 5 languages, into computers, science, gaming and NOT socially awkward. Bit of a mix I guess. I can talk to people no problem, even women. Had to learn that whilst working at a Laser Tag center in my late teens/early adulthood (best job ever). There just has to be a connection and until recently, never had that. They say that life works in mysterious ways. Uhuh.So, with that out of the way, I've been lurking for a long, long time and reading each post and all the topics in a lot of relevant forums in the aftermath of my recent connection (Dating, Dating_Advice, Relationships, AskMen, Toughlove, Redpill etc...). There are some great stories on here, but a lot of depressing ones too. A modern phenomenon seems to be Ghosting. The majority of people would rather have honesty, as hurtful as that is, it's infinitely better than wondering wtf and being left in the dark. It would also enable people to grow and move on. At least those capable of some intelligence. Life after all, is an ever-continuous learning experience. On the flip side of this, some people cannot handle the truth (as seen on the NceGuy subreddit).History of my 'dating'I'm not totally clueless you know, so here goes:Primary school:Chased a girl for a while and at one point got a "Would you be my boyfriend Yes/No Tick box thing'. Just don't tell anyone (haha). Later on at one point I did tell people, so I fucked it up. Still a fond memory.Temporary primary school (just moved country, 12yrs old,.finished primary school back home, but new country, new language.....had to wait for new school year to go to an International school)There was this girl that I found immensely attractive. I went to the shops and bought a single, red rose. Placed it on her desk during break time. Yes everyone knew who it was from and no, she didn't reciprocate. Was a nice gesture though.High school:I guess around 14-15 at this time. On a school trip abroad this one girl caught my eye. Couldn't stop thinking about her. Back at school I did my research and found out in which class she was in (each class had a classbook, with records of students and to keep attendance) and left her a note. If I recall correctly, I even smooth talked her address from a school administrator and sent her a bouqet of flowers. Not bad for that age, right? Things did escalate from there and during a lunch break there she was, with her friends, all started giggling when I walked outside. I approached and started talking and it went from there. Since this was the 90s we spent hours talking on the home phone and even came to my place. One memory of that was when I rode her home (bikes) and we stayed at the halfway point for hours just talking and being playful (my mom called the police on me wondering where I was, because I didn't do shit like that, just my siser). It never escalated to kissing though, as much as I wanted to. One thing that stuck in my mind was she had a history of being abused, so with that in your head you want to proceed carefully. I wasn't stupid. Inexperienced sure. How do you deal with something like that? I suppose that's one of life's regrets. What if? What could have been?High school 2Different school, just going up in the system. So there's this really really cute girl and just happens to be best friends with one of my female classmates. At one point a friend of mine started dating this classmate and I got them to put in some good words for me (Networking people, this shit is legit). So, we started hanging out, doing stuff. After school, at the park etc. Lots of kissing (wasn't me escalating, trust me). Anyhow at one point as you do at school, you invite people over for a small party/gathering. My parents are divorced, mom lived elsewhere and dad was away most of the time (work). So the house is mine. I'm 18 at this point so it's all fine. Soaking rain, met the group outside, came in etc and this girl is all wet and needed a change of clothes so she put on a tracksuit of mine. Everyone had been drinking so all good. Kindof. So we're getting hot and heavy on the couch (the group is still sitting around the table haha....no shame :P) and at one point I put my hands down her pants.....but.....BUT.....this goes on in my head "oh wait because she's been drinking I must not take advantage of her" so I didn't. She then leads me to my bedroom and we start making out on the bed, but because I was a dumb motherfucker back then I didn't escalate it (so we wen't back downstairs again). The signs were obvious, but inexperience on my part and being too 'nice' and 'gentlemanly' about it....le sigh.This was my one and only chance so far (cry) to get laid. The relationship lasted about....3-4 weeks? In retrospect I learned a lot and the fact that there are different women out there with different wants and needs. The irony of that is how different my life might have been. Maybe somewhere in a parallell universe I wasn't that dumb...And thus ends my 'dating' history, as short as it was, for the next two decades. It's odd I suppose. In the years I followed before going back to college I was working in the entertainment industry. Bars, clubs etc. Working behind the bar was really really awesome. Not just working well with your colleagues and having fun (still hard work), but interacting with the customers. Unfortunately I was never, and still not, a 'player'. I'm just me. So no 'barman hooked up with...' stories etc. No panties being thrown in my direction for free drinks...So basically that was my life. Eventually moved to an IT/logistics job, still played football, still went to the gym, still played computer games, still did my music. Then at one point I decided fuck it, and went back to college.Fast forward to nowSo I'm at the end stage of my Bachelors and it's Koningsnacht here in NL. My smartphone is tucked away in my drawer and I use Whatsapp via Bluestacks on the PC. Just easier that way. Some of my football mates are in town at the Irish Pub and I go down to meet them. I get there and they are gone. Shit. No smartphone, no way to contact them, and ofc didn't put their numbers in my flipphone. Derp. I get pissed off and go back home, figured fuck it, just as well, don't want to drink and get drunk anyhow. I did fire up my PC again and find out where they were. At this point I'm debating, because usually when I go back bad things happens (drink too much, massive hangover) but #YOLO, right? So back I go.The night was great, went to a few bars (four of us) and had a blast. I did NOT go out expecting to meet anyone. The last place we went to was a club open till 4am. Ordered some interesting mixes and had fun........and there she was. Ironically a mate of my mine was talking to the pair and I overheard where they were from and English being spoken, so I went in and took over the conversation (sorry mate). I connected with this girl from the start. Started talking about music and we had a passion for similar stuff. We moved to the side and talked all night and exchanged numbers there and then. When the place had to close I helped her get her coat and walked her home (was a fair walk, 30min easy). Her friend also had a guy with her but was busy doing her own thing. That night we ended up talking till 7am. She made some great tea with some moonshine which was at least 60%++ and just enjoyed each others company I guess. It only ended when her friend was tired and wanted to go to sleep, haha. So bade our farewells....we both went outside and she was worried for me about the rain, but being a footballer it was only a slight drizzle and it was fine. Was nice of her though. Didn't kiss her ( I wanted to, trust me), but the whole 3 kisses on the cheek thing and rode off into the sunrise...Texted her the next day and set up a date. Went on around 4 dates after that and they all went really well. We talked a lot and had fun. You just know something is right when you can communicate without any pressure. No nonsense, just getting to know each other. There wasn't non stop texting, but she'd text me ask me how my weekend was etc. After a night out that she had originally planned with her friends ( I was welcomed to come along, didn't pressure her, but she said "Well if they have issues with it (me coming along) then they aren't my friends anymore" So that was a positive reaction. She ended up coming an hour later, cause they were drinking at home first :P but we ended up again talking non stop and her friends backed off and eventually buggered off elsewhere...... At the end of that (3rd date) I walked her to her bike and made my move, slowly, slowly and we kissed. There's no feeling like that connection. Electric. And we made plans to see each other again on Sunday (this was Friday).On that date I met her where she parks her bike, kissed her and we went through town holding hands (I initiated). Took her to various places, walk through the park etc. At other points where we weren't holding hands or couldn't, she'd grab mine, so that was a good sign I thought. Things were looking up. Again ended with me taking her home, kissing. She did warn me that the following week she'd be busy (exam coming up, internship). Fair play, I'm a student myself so I know how that works. Not a problem. She'd let me know when she'd have time. People have their own lives too.Next day (Monday). Evening, around 10pm, I was already in bed, smartphone on the table....yes I had finally found a use for it.....and there's this thunderstorm going. Always enjoyed a good storm, great for getting to sleep. I get a text.....from her........saying how she enjoys thunderstorms etc (as Gibbs would say, there's no such thing as coincidence) and we flirt. I replied along the lines of how I enjoy them as well and "There's only one thing missing wink"But. Tuesday. This is where shit gets (Un)real.Because she has this exam coming up, I get it in my head to drop off a box of chocolates where she lives (as fate would have it, 10s away from where I play football....) so she has something nice to snack on whilst she's studying. I do the same behind my PC. Now, the day before she had mentioned chocolates so that's how it popped into my head. These weren't bonbons, nor anything even romantic I thought. Just a box of Jaffa Cakes that my grandma had brought over when she visted. You cannot buy them here in NL and these were my only box (goddamnit). I wrote a note to it attesting to the fac tthat these were to help her study and that her friend could have some too if she behaved. So a friendly, cheeky note, right?Tuesday evening came about. Nothing. No word. I mean, I knew it was a risk leaving the bag hanging on the door. I dropped them off on my way to the gym after all. So I asked her. She didn't get them. Shit. Someone must have stolen them. Motherf*****s. Probably some punk ass kid. Anyhow I wrote a text as such....about an hour or two later I got a somewhat scathing message back "You shouldn't have bothered cuz I won't have time for you this week etc etc etc" Woah. WTF? I knew from that moment that something was up, but she did warn me she'd be busy. I was Alright, you warned me, gl with the exam, let me know when you have time" and didn't contact her again.Few days later she contacted me thanking me for the chocolates and that another house guest had brought the bag in, but that the following week she'd be busy too with her final internship report and had already planned a weekend away with her BFF (female). Again I fired off an ok, have fun, let me know"8 days passed, no word. This is where I learned from Reddit about Ghosting. I thought shit, I'm being ghosted. No idea why. The chocolates? Really? Fuck man everyone loves chocolates, right? ShitAt the point it's feeling like a huge kick in the balls. Like someone just dropped a thermonuclear device on my ass. However, instead of pussying around I decided enough was enough. I'm taking control of my life once and for all. I've always been athletic, but started going hard at the gym. Everyday. Sometimes twice a day. Got my place sorted out, cleaned it from top to bottom. Every nook and cranny. Threw out all my old shit I didn't need anymore (still had computer mags from 1996+) and old electronics. Everything went. Everything was spotless.I even bought two new books. Modern Romance by Aziz Anshari (funny as fuck, highly recommend) and The Game (recommended by a friend). This last book is really weird though.However. 8 days came around and I did the hardest thing I've ever done in a long time. I removed her from my contacts. Broke my heart, but had to be done. Didn't really sleep that night. Very early morning I was still awake and thinking. Fuck it, fuck the rules. Who imposed these bullshit rules anyhow? I'll break them (Thanks Arnold) I'll send a final message. And being the sometimes-too-smart IT geek I am....figured her phone number might still be located in my flipphone. So switched simcards and lo and behold, there it was. Back on the smartphone I fired off a long message. Basically came down to how I enjoyed the time we spent together, regardless of the outcome. Wished her well and didn't expect any response.At the end of the day I got a response. She apologised and said she'd chickened out, how the chocolates scared her off and wasn't sure where this was heading.However, I was a great guy and she enjoyed the company. She needed time and wasn't ready for a commitment. I responded again thanked her for being brave in sending the msg and honest (well she could have kept her mouth shut, so have to give her credit). All we ever want is honesty, as much as it might suck. I did say my intentions were honourable but respected her decision. Wished her well and left with if she ever wanted to talk or grab a drink she knew where to find me.So that ends that chapter.In retrospect, the red flag during our dates was that she mentioned her ex a few times (pothead, he dumped her apparantly, didn't ask why). I should have carefully poked and prodded and found out when the relationship ended I suppose. I guess it was recent and/or other things were at play still. She had basically come to this country with him and I'll assume they were together for a while and had plans. Just a guess on my part.The days that followed were extremely hard. At times I didn't want to get out of bed. My gym time sucked balls. Couldn't concentrate, couldn't finish my routines. Gah. Then you know it's bad. Basically you just want things to end or just be swallowed up. I did a lot of ranting and raving at my mates online and they listened, had advice, as hard as it was. So appreciate all the shit I put them through (they know who they are). As Freddy put it: The Show Must Go On.It didn't end there. Oh no. Being the total dumbass I am I left her number in my phone. Two weeks after the fact I was somewhat back to normal (not really, but relatively speaking). Was going to go to the pub with a friend but he cancelled at the last minute. I figured fuck it. I'm 35, good looking, fuck sitting at home wallowing in misery I'll go out and have fun. Talk to people. This I did, up to a point. I ended up at the same place I met her. At first it was fine, busier than normal, good music, lots of good looking women around. I did contemplate at one point going up to speak to some but was in a good place at that point and just enjoyed the surroundings.ButThe alcohol started kicking in. I realised that I really didn't want to speak to anyone else and just had one person on my mind (fuck...you know where this is going). I bust out the phone and fired off a long message. In my defense, I still had some things left to say and like Rocky in Rocky Balboa (6) I had to get it out of my system. She actually responded right away (this was after midnight) and she was glad I understood, but she was confused and needed to be alone for a while etc. I responded to that (how I thought she shouldn't think that, she is a beautfful, intelligent and fun person to be with) yadeyadah. I did mean every word. I don't bullshit.In the morning I did apologise for being an annoying, dumb fuck and wouldn't bother her again and wished her well on her vacation.So there you have it Reddit. My story. If you've read all of this then fuck me you deserve a cookie. At the very least a strong drink probably.So to all of you posting how you are 18, 25 or whatever age and still haven't been laid. Trust me, things could be worse. You could be me, hahahaha. (I had my shot at 18 :P) But there's no right age either. And don't force it. I've thought plenty of times about casual hookups, or even paid services. But that's not me and never will be. Yes I've also tried online dating, but never clicked with me. I just have to keep moving forward with my own life. It's not easy though. No human being should ever be alone and as you get older, it sucks even more. You just have to keep at it.Worst part of this story is, I still think about her. Everyday. As much as I try and get her out of my frikking system, I'll be lying on a bench doing flys, or pullups on the bar and she'll pop into my head. You know how annoying that shit is? Even trying to follow The Rock's advice "FOCUS!" doesn't help. But what can a guy do ? (get laid? Thanks Reddit, very funny).On the positive side, I'm even more motivated at the gym than ever before and I stopped caring about computer games. Once I realised that I thought the End Times are truly here. Some things are more important in pursuing though. And talking is good. Don't keep shit bottled up inside, even if you have to make a Reddit post. via /r/dating_advice