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sheikah · 7 years ago

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Hello I don’t if you have been asked before but is there any evidence in the books to actually back up Jonsa? There’s plenty of foreshadowing for Jonerys but any about Jonsa? Or does it all come from the show.

Well, it’s subjective, and that’s the problem. There are things in the books that some J0nsa fans point to as proof of J0nsa that I don’t personally interpret as proof of J0nsa, but in the interest of answering this anyway, I’ll lay them out below.

When Jon is young he enjoys learning about and even pretending to be the Targaryens. His particular favorite seems to be Daeron The Young Dragon, who conquered Dorne at only fourteen.

But in ASOS Jon XIII he recalls playing with Robb and pretending to be Aemon the Dragonknight: “They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.“

J0nsa fans say this foreshadows J0nsa because Sansa later thinks about her relationship with Joffrey in a romanticized light, as if she is Naerys and he is Aemon.

We can see this in AGOT Sansa III: “I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian.”

But do you notice anything else? She also thinks of Florian and Jonquil, and in the passage from Jon’s POV that they often refer to, Robb is Florian. By this logic, it would also be foreshadowing Sansa/Robb. So I don’t really agree with this book evidence.To me the mentions of these historic/legendary couples are more a characterization choice and a coincidence. A coincidence because it is coincidental that Jon once pretended to be Aemon during play, and a characterization tool because it shows Sansa’s youthful naivety and that she, like many teenaged girls, romanticizes things and wants everything to be like the Westerosi equivalent of a rom com–”like the songs.” And I say that because later, it is Margaery using this analogy and Sansa, having grown up some and suffered, warning Margaery that she is wrong and that Joffrey is cruel.

In Sansa’s POV II in ASOS, Margaery says this to reassure her after Sansa warns her of Joffrey’s true nature: “I shall have the finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms protecting me night and day, as Prince Aemon protected Naerys.”

But Sansa doubts this and worries for Margaery. So while Sansa was once young, innocent, and fanciful, she is more grounded in realism and ready to question analogies to the songs when real life doesn’t work that way in her experience.

Another commonly referenced book quote for J0nsa fans comes from Sansa’s Alayne II POV in AFFC: “She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still … with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.”

Again, I don’t see this as romantic or even foreshadowing of anything other than the fact that they eventually will meet again. I do expect them to meet again in book!canon. I do expect it to be “sweet.” But here she reflects on him as the last of her family, not as someone she is in love with or pining for. She feels low, a “bastard,” and that reminds her of Jon–this new similarity of class status as a “Stone.” It isn’t connected to feelings of fondness, but loneliness.

In that same chapter, Alayne II in AFFC Sansa also has this thought about the sound of the wind: “[T]he wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghostwolf, big as mountains.”

Again, I don’t see this as a connection to Jon. This chapter has featured Sansa reflecting on how alone she is and how little of her family she has left. Remember that although Jon’s wolf is called Ghost, Sansa had a wolf, too. And Lady, being deceased, could easily be a “ghost,” a part of Sansa’s past, a loss that still haunts her.

Another frequently mentioned quote is in ADWD Jon XIII: “He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself.”

Here we can see that Jon did think of Sansa. But I do not feel this is a romantic or longing thought. He is thinking about his siblings back in Winterfell when they were younger. Right after this he goes on to think of Arya as well.

I’ve also seen people point to the passage from Jon I in AGOT when he is sizing up the Baratheon family at Winterfell for the first time. He describes Sansa as “radiant”–”Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.”

To me he is simply stating the obvious–everyone who gets the chance to calls or thinks of Sansa as a beautiful girl in ASOIAF. This isn’t unique to Jon -- not that conventional beauty has ever been important to him anyway? Remember that he’s always held a soft spot for Arya, who is constantly contrasted with Sansa’s beauty. Remember that he fell in love with Ygritte, who he loved for her spirit, not her looks. She is described with crooked teeth and gangly legs. So again, I think Jon was just thinking on something quite normal–Sansa looked nice, and looked happy, “radiant” even, in contrast to Joffrey’s sulking.

Lastly, in AGOT Sansa III, after her outburst about loving Joffrey, Ned says this: “When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”

J0nsa fans say that Jon is the brave, gentle, strong man being foreshadowed here, especially since he is a secret Targaryen royal with a name like Aemon’s. But again, I just don’t see this. There are many brave, gentle, strong people, and Jon was not named Aemon after all.

Anyway, I hope this answers your question. All in all, I can see where J0nsa fans are coming from with some of these. The problem for me is that instead of calmly laying these out as possibilities, or as the reason why many of them believed post season 6 that J0nsa would be canon, they aggressively insist that these somewhat reaching passages are ironclad, irrefutable proof–that J0nsa is canon, undercover Jon is a thing, and anyone who disagrees is a delusional person who expects a Disney ending. But as you say, there is far more book foreshadowing + parallels for Jonerys, not to mention the fact that Jonerys have followed those and become canon in the show with only 6 episodes left to go and several arcs to close and tidy up.

GRRM’s work is very rich and we could find “evidence” for almost any crack theory if we mine his words deeply enough.

#jonerysxo #answered

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xxthewolvenstormxx · 7 years ago

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15 Questions

Tagged by @daenerys1417 @tomakeitbeautifultolive @callmedewitt @geekyfeminist-love

Thank you!

Rules: 15 questions, 15 mutuals

1. Are you named after anyone?

No. I’m pretty sure I’m the only Shayel. At least the last time I googled myself. Which was a while ago. Who knows, maybe somebody I knew at some point reproduced and now that little person is named after me.

2. When was the last time you cried?

Ooofa Doofa. Last week. I started grief counseling. And after I just needed to sit in the car and cry for a bit. It hurt but, it was good. A lack is a wound that hurts to heal and my lack is closure and I am working on healing it.

3. Do you have kids?

Nope. I have a niece, Banjo, she’s amazing and looks exactly like me.

4. Do you use sarcasm a lot?

No. (and like the thing is I have to specify that this is not sarcasm)

5. What’s the first thing you notice about people?

Whether or not they are being genuine.

6. What’s your eye colour?

Hazel.

7. Scary movie or happy ending?

Por Que No Las Dos?

8. Any special talents?

I can do this specific voice my husband likes that I like to call “Film Noir Jersey Whore”

9. Where were you born?

Wisconsin, but I moved to California when I was like a week old.

10. What are your hobbies?

Table Top Gaming, Writing, Journaling, (which is writing but about me) Crochet, Video Gaming, Sewing, Game Design.

11. Do you have any pets?

No. We can’t right now. Hubby’s and my schedules are too erratic. It’s not fair too keep a little critter in a cage for 12 hours. And I like the idea of cats but not the reality.

12. What sports do you play/have you played?

Nope.

13. How tall are you?

5′11. I’m a fucking Titan.

14. Favorite subject in school?

History and Theatre. I made things though. I didn’t say/sing things.

15. Dream job?

I like telling stories, whether its in the setting of game or fic. World-building, and dropping fake people in it.

Tagging:

@jalenmara @blue-roses-in-a-wall-of-ice @thescarletgarden1990 @filhadoboto @soleilpirate @stormborn-snow @starks-and-sadness @spookydaenerysjon @jonerysxo @zavacado @megkhaleesi @justwandering-neverlost @grrrkking

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