#leia doesn't forgive him (she never will) but after a while she's willing to listen to him

[byfulcrums]

The idea of Anakin trying to “fix” what he did as Vader (or more like redeem himself, since what he did can't be ‘fixed’) by helping people all over the galaxy as a Force Ghost does something to me

[aimmyarrowshigh]

I'm down with Rey experiencing temptation and making tough choices, even wrong choices- and learning from them. As long as she doesn't choose the side of genocide and fascism and/or double down at every chance she gets to correct her path in order to continue to pursue power at great cost to others. Kylo being tempted by the Dark Side or "making tough choices" isn't why he's reviled in the way of villains. It's because he's a fucking villain. (Who mind rapes people.)

Exactly. We’ve SEEN Rey make tough choices already, and we’ve seen her tempted by the Dark side! But being tempted and choosing not to give in is what makes her Rey. It is the essential difference that is what Star Wars is ABOUT. 

I feel like one of the big schisms in SW fannish interpretation comes down to whether you think Star Wars is “ultimately about” redemption or choice. I think it’s about choice. I might disagree with the idea that Vader was redeemed in the moments before his death – and that disagreement is shared by every character except Luke, js, which I think is canonical evidence supporting the idea that even in canon the idea of “redemption” is about interpretation – but he absolutely made a CHOICE in those moments, and that choice affected his destiny.

Choice is the through-line of all of the big narrative-changing/“galaxy-changing” storylines in SW. Luke chooses to return to Bespin rather than stay on Dagobah. Han chooses to return to the Battle of Yavin. Leia chooses to trust Lando to devise the plot to save Han. Ben Solo chose to turn his back on the ideals of the Light, and he chose to become Kylo Ren, and he chose every action he’s taken as Kylo Ren – including the massacre at Tuanul, the forced and painful penetrations of Poe and Rey, and the murder of Han Solo. Will he make different choices in TLJ? I mean, yeah, given that it’s a sequel and his storyline is ongoing. But if they want to make it believable that he’s choosing the side of the Light again, they’re going to have to work HARD. And I still will fight tooth-and-nail for Rey, Poe, Leia, Chewie, and Finn to have the dignity of being allowed NOT to forgive him.

We’ve seen Rey wrestle with choices, both before and after she was aware of the Force. Like, TFA wouldn’t even have happened if she had made the choice to put herself and her own well-being above BB-8 when Plutt offered her a month’s worth of food. Especially since we know in her backstory from BtA that she’s having a particularly lean time at the moment since the closest thing she’d ever had to a friend just swindled her out of 10,000 portions and fled Jakku, leaving Rey with no portions and out several weeks’ worth of salvage! It would have been SO much more beneficial to Rey, in the immediate moment, to trade in BB-8 and take the portions.

But the Light guided Rey. That’s one interpretation. Another is that Rey made the choice to trust her own skill – she’d find more salvage and be able to earn some portions, even if it took a while again – and have mercy on this little being that was left behind on Jakku. It was important to her to give someone else what she never got, and that was more core to who she was than the temptation to be selfish and have something come easy.

Now: I absolutely can see how that same reading of her personality could lead to the idea that she’ll have mercy for Kylo Ren/Ben Solo. If that’s how the filmmakers go with it, then it’s not out of the blue, or anything, and I can rationally understand the argument that it would be logical. I just think that it would be boring as fuck reductive storytelling to once again make the female lead character have to put herself aside for the benefit of the male villain, even at the expense of herself, and I think it would be… Frankly, I think that showing narrative empathy for the First Order, in the climate that we live in in 2017, is insulting and dangerous and would be an unforgivable, for me, choice for Lucasfilm as a company to make. Not that that means I don’t think they MIGHT, because like, lbr, Disney has always been antisemitic as fuck and racist as shit, but. 

Here’s what I was thinking about last week: the entire neo-Nazi crowd at Charlottesville? They see themselves as Kylo Ren. They see themselves the way he sees himself, as the lone warrior strong enough to see through the lies of the Jedi and the New Republic, to turn his back on the teachings of Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa, to find a wiser teacher in the deification of a long-dead fascist who sought to kill all of those who would challenge him. And they also see themselves as Kylo Ren, the white male major character who by Rights and Logic deserves to win in the end and get the girl and defeat his enemies and be proven to be the Most Human Of All and definitely, definitely get his due over anything that the Black or Latinx or Asian main characters could ever earn. If Star Wars’ Sequel Trilogy does give Kylo Ren forgiveness, redemption, a win over Finn or Poe or Rose, the trophy of having Rey love him? Lucasfilm and Disney are giving those neo-Nazis their stamp of approval. They’re saying, yeah, you’re right, we let Black and Latinx people and antifascism have one movie, but in the end, it’s all about you. You get to win, again. You are the chosen ones.

And I think that’s literally nauseating to consider.

And granted: TLJ was written and filmed before the election, but not before all of this shit was brewing. I absolutely don’t think that any media creator is BEHOLDEN to be morally and socially responsible, because media creators are human and as long as there are repugnant people, there will be repugnant ideals in media. But I do think that Star Wars, so far, as a franchise, has been clear that they don’t side with the Empire. I don’t think they’ll give the First Order any quarter of empathy or forgiveness or “redemption” that they didn’t give the Empire. But, I also think that there’s absolutely the chance that they’ll execute the story in a way where they try to make Kylo Ren some kind of outlier who can earn his way back into the Light. I don’t personally think he can; I think he’s too far gone. But I do, in a lot of ways, expect for them to try. Some of that, too, I think is because of the prominence of shitty-ass neo-Nazis in Star Wars’ viewing audience: either they’ll be trying to say, it’s not too late for you (sorry fuckos, it is) or they’ll be trying to say, just keep reaching out and maybe they’ll listen (they won’t; they’re fuckos). But, again, I think that execution would be irresponsible at best, actively harmful at worst. 

I want Kylo Ren to go unredeemed because I’m absolutely sick of the coddling of men who make the active, agential choice to harm people and are told they can come back from that choice. 

Kylo’s victims can’t come back from what he did to them. So neither should he.

Anyway, what was I talking about? Oh, right, Rey’s other moments of choice and Dark side temptation in TFA. There’s the obvious one, which I see most commonly as the one that Reylo shippers use as evidence that they’re connected more deeply than Heroine and Villain, which is the moment Rey chose not to kill him. 

I feel like it shouldn’t NEED to be explained why the hero chooses not to kill, morally/ethically speaking?

But the other is one that I haven’t seen a lot of people talk about as being a moment of Dark side temptation, and that I think is up there with the BB-8 choice as being one that’s particularly interesting: her choice to flee on Takodana. First off, you wanna talk mirroring, that’s her mirroring moment with Finn. Both of them are trying to get away from Takodana, away from their destiny, away from the Force itself, even if they don’t necessarily know it yet. 

Rey succumbs to the temptation, on Takodana. That’s her Moment of Refusal when it comes to her Hero’s Journey, and in Star Wars, that’s classically because of temptation by the Dark. If you want to look at it in terms of “the Force creates Rey’s destiny,” she has to succumb in that moment so that she’ll be taken to Starkiller Base and be able to witness the murder of Han, get the lightsaber in the snow, be able to open herself up to the Light to defeat Kylo Ren. But I think that reading of the choice strips Rey of her agency. (As does the whole “the Force is in charge of all choices” in general, but whatever.) 

In choosing to flee, Rey CHOOSES the Dark. She chooses selfishness. She chooses her own needs above those of the Galaxy. She chooses, maybe, in that moment, Finn, running through the forest to try to find the ship he’s leaving on. She chooses fear. Fear, passion, selfishness, the self above others – it’s a classic, perfect Dark side choice. And again, BB-8 brings her back. She stops running to give BB-8 cover to make it back to Han and the Resistance. She is again brought back to the Light by BB-8, and her empathy for this little being who trusts her. The key to Rey’s moral compass is compassion. That is a Jedi belief, not one of the Dark. (And I think it’s interesting that two of the three major choices she makes wrt Dark temptation in TFA, she chooses the Light because of BB-8. BB-8 is shaped like a friend.)

So when it comes to TLJ? I absolutely expect to see Rey wrestle with the Dark side. Just like Luke did. Just like Leia does. But that doesn’t mean that I think Rey will choose it in a way that READS as Dark, per se – her flight on Takodana IS Dark, but doesn’t Read as Dark, yk? You wouldn’t look at it and think, “evil.” I don’t think that it serves Rey’s character to make her choose EVIL even if, and when, she chooses Dark. I don’t think she’ll be willing to give up her selfhood, and I really hope, more than anything else in TLJ, that the writing team gave her enough respect to allow her that continued selfhood. I absolutely expect for Rey to be tempted by selfishness; I think that as far as the Dark side goes, that’s kind of her achilles’ heel – Rey getting to have something and not wanting to give it up would be very in-character, IMO, and I totally expect to see that. I also expect for her to be tempted to give into her very real anger and confusion at the death of Han Solo and how she (selfishly!) wanted to keep him and be kept by him. Same with Finn; she wants to keep him, dammit, he came back for her and the First Order cannot have him back. I’m anticipating her being tempted by her hatred of Kylo Ren, too, and to be tempted by the Dark whispering that she should have killed him in the snow. I don’t think that Rey is the Perfect Encapsulation of the Light insofar as being only compassionate and selfless, because that wouldn’t allow her the breadth of agency and selfhood that she deserves. And that she’s already shown.

In a meaningful way, Rey has to be tempted by the Dark to NOT forgive Kylo Ren. Forgiving him would be being that Mary-Sue-perfect-Light that people accuse “antis” of seeing Rey as, because it would be putting him and his feelings and his needs above her own. I want Rey to be selfish as FUCK and say NO. He doesn’t get that Light and Good part of her. He doesn’t get her compassion. Rey owns herself. And she’s not giving that up.

Forgiving Kylo or Rey somehow putting Kylo Ren on a path to redemption would not show Rey’s compassion, it would be subsumption of her Self. It would say to the audience that he had a right to use her body, mind, and soul to gain his own personhood back, and that’s fucking disgusting.