#liking a 'problematic' ship in fiction does NOT mean the shipper condones the problematic aspect of it IRL

[glon-morski]

What are your personal thoughts about "problematic" ships in the fandom? (i.e Age gaps,...)

My general consensus is 'you do you’. If I don’t like your ship, I avoid it. If you don’t like my ship, I expect you to do the same. If someone likes a “problematic” ship, I don’t judge them for it and I’d hope to be given the same courtesy.

The thing is, many people seem to think that liking a problematic or controversial ship means you condone the problematic side of it in real life or that you willfully ignore the fact it's “problematic”. That is not the case. The thing with fandom is that it gives you a safe way to enjoy and/or explore stuff you cannot in real life for various reasons, one of them (and the one that often applies to “problematic” ships) being that you wouldn’t ever do or condone in real life something you may like to read/write/whatever about in fiction. Which is why rather than judge the ships themselves (or the people who sail these ships, so to speak), I tend to judge how a ship is handled.

Let me illustrate on an example that admittedly hits close to home thematically: Character A used to bully Character B and so far, in canon, there's no indication they'll ever be involved romantically. People ship them anyway. I see two fanfics.

Fic 1: Character A is still an asshole, but isn't a literal bully anymore. Still, the past they have with character B never gets addressed or called out as problematic or anything. It's not even implied, like it never happened. There's no remorse from A and no apology, much less anything more than that. B either forgives A anyway or doesn't really think the past matters or is an issue at this point. The entire thing is ignored and/or portrayed as a 'shit happens, it doesn’t matter anymore, let's move on with our lives' kind of normal.

Fic 2: Character A actually realizes their previus behavior was shitty and unacceptable. They're shown to feel genuine remorse and to want to atone for their actions, even if they may still display asshole-y behavior because that’s what they’re like. They and Character B have talked about things, be it on- or off-screen. Stuff that's fucked up and wrong gets called out as fucked up and wrong and character B's choice to forgive is just that: a choice, with both options (to forgive or not to forgive) being valid. There’s redemption, there’s healing, there’s moving on together.

Both these hypothetical fics show the same ‘problematic’ ship of BullyXBullied. But while fic 1 basically ignores all the problematic stuff and pretends it’s not there, fic 2 addresses it and tries to deal with it. Issues aren’t swept under the rug, bullshit that should be called out gets called out and stuff that’s just plain wrong is said to be plain wrong and that it shouldn’t happen. In such a situation, I would be extremely against the portrayal of the ship in fic 1, because it just isn’t right to sweep everything under the rug like that. It did happen to these fictional characters and you can’t just pretend it didn’t without any consequences or closure or anything. But I would have nothing against the portrayal of the ship in fic 2, which takes all the problematic sides, acknowledges them and tries to work around them. And to me, in fandom, that’s ultimately the only thing you can judge others for. Not for what they ship, but how they’re shipping it.

And there’s also the question of what you consider ‘problematic’ in some cases. Like the age gap you mentioned, Anon. To me personally, an age gap in and off itself isn’t problematic or controversial. Couples who have 5, 7 or even more years difference between them aren’t something I see a problem with most of the time. The defining factor would be the age of the younger character (if they’re around 10, then they’re definitely too young to be shipped with anyone in the first place) and how the older character deals with that age gap. In most cases, the only real issue portrayed in fics (and it seems to be the main issue IRL as well, though I can’t say I would have a way of knowing) is the issue of the younger character not being ‘legal’, which considering that minors doing ‘certain adult activities’ (*coughcough*) isn’t a new thing at all is utter BS. So long as both characters make an informed decision on what they’re getting into, there’s no issue. It’s all about understanding and consent, more than it is the actual age. But then we can hit the hard limit of a taboo topic if the age gap is too big, with one character being a literal child and the other an adult. We all know what the adult being attracted to a child is called and we all know that it’s considered disgusting and unacceptable.

If I see a fic with that kind of ship and it utterly ignores those issues, I’m going to be horified and disgusted, but I’ll still judge the how of the ship, rather than the ship itself. But if I see a fic in which an adult character feels attraction towards a child and that character or another one (repeatedly) point out it’s wrong? If it’s a story about an adult giving in to his desires while the people around them judge them for it because of how immoral it is? Or a story about an adult feeling attraction to a child and fighting themself on it because it’s wrong? But they still want to be with the child and they constantly fight themself on it because they know they shouldn’t do shit without proper understanding and consent from the child, which they won’t have a chance of getting until the child is older? And they keep struggling between perverse desires they can’t help and the logical knowledge that they must not act on them, must not take advantage of the child’s inno8cence just to get what they want? Well, I’d still cringe at the general theme of it (because ultimately my first reaction is and always will be ‘EW!’), but I’d definitely give the author a big round of applause for having the guts to write such a thing and for handling it that way. (Though seriously, can you imagine such a story evry being written? I can’t, it would blow up faster than the destiel shit today did.) Liking problematic/controversial ships (or any other kind of problematic/controversial content, really) is fine. What really matters is what about it actually draws your interest and what you do with it all.

TL;DR: It’s not about whether or not a ship is problematic and/or controversial. It’s about what the shipper does with the problematic and/or controversial side of it that really matters and it should be the only thing that people get a right to judge.

[misscrawfords]

7 and 8!

7. Are most of your ships “pure” or “problematic”?

Congratulations, you got me on a pet peeve! What is up with things being “pure” or “problematic”? Is it this stupid American puritanical culture thing that is taking over everywhere? I refuse to categorise my interests like this.

Calling a ship “pure” is nonsensical. Does it mean literally virginal with not a whiff of that naughty sexual chemistry? Because sex is bad, guys! Is that it? 

Or does it mean that the characters have no flaws and never hurt each other or do anything wrong ever in themselves or their relationships? Because that’s… not very realistic. Has the person advocating this ever, you know, had a relationship of any kind with anyone ever? Also, why would anyone be interested in something so excruciatingly dull as flawless people being virtuous and happy and successful all the time?

Do people ship things for Christian moral validation or something? Because that is weird.

Or perhaps a “pure” ship is simply one that is not “problematic”. Because people who ship “problematic” ships are evil and support abuse in fiction AND real life and so a person who ships a “pure” ship can feel morally superior to someone who ships something “problematic” and we do all love feeling morally virtuous and superior, don’t we?

But what is a “problematic” ship? Does it mean a ship involving incest or paedophilia or rape or something equally unpalatable to many people? Well, perhaps. Certainly incest is quite popular at the moment thanks to GoT but hey, in various cultures incest has always been a thing. And what counts as incest anyway? Fanny and Edmund in Mansfield Park are first cousins which squicks out some people and not others. I guess Oedipus/Jocasta is a genuinely problematic ship… And there are certainly some ships that involve actual rape. YMMV when it comes to varying levels of sexual coercion and what is something that can be rectified within the text and what is a line that cannot be crossed. But surely that’s a matter for individual taste and there isn’t an actual rule about it. Astonishingly, the real police don’t care whether you ship Spuffy or not. And surely it also depends on your definition of shipping. Is a ship something you aspire to in your own personal relationships? Or is it a dynamic you find interesting and compelling for some reason? People have lots and lots of reasons for why they ship something.

Shipping doesn’t mean condoning the relationship or the characters involved in it.

But the majority of ships that are so-called “problematic” that I’ve seen aren’t even a rape fantasy of paedophilic incest. They’re just ships between people who aren’t always very nice… people who do bad things… or treat other people badly sometimes… And what constitutes “bad” or “not nice” varies greatly depending on the fandom. In epic fantasy, murdering 50 people might just be all in a day’s work, but in a high school AU is a bit more difficult to justify. Equally, in a high school AU cheating in an exam and punching the quarterback might be absolutely scandalous bad boy behaviour but would make the epic fantasy mercenary confused that this is supposed to be the pinnacle of evil.

Two things stand out.

Firstly, that fiction is interesting when people make mistakes. Most human beings do at some point. Fiction allows us an opportunity to explore the darker aspects of human nature in a safe and often non-judgemental way. I don’t know why people would be surprised by this or condemn it. This is literally what fiction is about. Go read some Greek epic or tragedy. So it’s hardly surprising that many people are drawn to ships that contain elements that are dark or difficult or not admirable either in the characters themselves or in the representation of their relationship. I mean, go read The Aeneid. Or Wuthering Heights. Dido and Aeneas - so respectful, such great communication, such excellent role-models! Heathcliffe and Cathy - so healthy, so virtuous! This is… not exactly a new phenomenon, ya know? 

Secondly, people are jumping on literally anything! I got anon hate for shipping Richard/Mary because Richard kissing her at Haxby was “sexual assault”. I’m just… Stop trivialising real world assault by slapping it unthinkingly onto fiction! Was Mary happy that her actual fiance in 1918 kissed her when she didn’t love him and their power dynamic was screwed up? Yes, almost certainly. But there’s something really bothersome about misusing these terms in this way. It divorces circumstances from context and context is really bloody important! Different countries, different cultures, different periods of history, different fictional universes have different cultural norms and not all of them can be described helpfully using the vocabulary and value systems of the 21st century “liberal” USA. It becomes like the boy who cried wolf. If everything becomes “abuse” or “assault” then I worry that the nuances that do exist in real relationships will get lost. 

That doesn’t mean, incidentally, that these things should be brushed over in the name of shipping. I certainly don’t intend to trivialise real world problems in real life. Or to suggest that people’s individual reasons for particular ships not appealing to them on a personal level aren’t valid. Everyone has their squicks and their NOTPs.

But I don’t think, most of the time, that shippers do trivialise the bad things that characters do in their ships. The most intelligent discussions of relationships and characters that I’ve come across have been from shippers of “problematic” pairings who don’t shy away from the challenging aspects of those relationships. The best fanfictions are the ones that engage with them on a far, far deeper level usually than the original source, teasing open every flaw and red light and giving characters depth and development that they are often denied in canon. 

You can do a lot in a 200,000 word fanfiction written by an intelligent, self-aware young woman that you’re not going to get for a secondary character in a TV show written by a middle-aged man.

Finally, it seems that this dichotomy between “pure” and “problematic” ships has arisen very recently and it’s all being pushed by the “pure” shippers, who have a real problem with what other people ship. Whereas the people who ship these “problematic” ships really don’t care what other people ship and often love those characters and relationships too.

When I was a teenager I was mainly a Harry/Hermione shipper but I also read plenty of Dramione fic and even Snape/Hermione fic (mainly because a friend recommended me some awesome fic for that ship) and nobody judged at all. Shipping wars have always been a thing but there was never any kind of moral judgement, at least not that I can recall. Canon or non-canon, healthy or deeply messed up… it was all just shipping, you know? And nobody was trying to claim that the fact I spent a weekend reading a NC-17 rated Snape/Hermione teacher/student dubcon fic at the age of 15 made me a terrible person who supported abusive relationships… It doesn’t, of course. (Though, looking back, I do wonder a little at my RL friend who told me I should read that fic. I mean…) Just as the fact that I think Medea is awesome doesn’t mean I think killing one’s children is a great idea.

But these days, it seems to me that a lot of people who advocate for “pure” ships are the biggest bullies in fandom and the least capable of a nuanced reading of fiction and the most judgemental both of fictional characters and of the people who think differently to them.

And again I’m forced to return to comparisons with a certain kind of puritanical, dogmatical Christianity which preaches peace and love while being deeply bigoted and narrow-minded. So much for being “liberal” and “caring”.

So, to conclude, I guess most of my ships are problematic. In that I like exploring relationships that have a bit of bite to them. Not that I get off on incredibly squicky things. And I like seeing what happens when the least likely people discover common ground and come together in whatever way. It’s fun! So then I can put them in a coffee shop AU where nothing bad ever happens. :P

But I would rather just destroy this entire concept of “pure” and “problematic” ships. I think it is deeply, deeply toxic and expresses a fundamental misunderstanding of what fiction is about.

8. Who is the most shippable person you can think of?

Mary Crawley lbr. I ship her with:

Matthew

Richard

Charles

Mabel

Tom

[cominatchacleopatra]

Some very obvious observations: 

 The people that are getting irritated with the makers of vld are just mad that the show isn't being written the way they want it to go. So they cry "bad writing" because they can't use their critical thinking skills. 

 Allura's age was hella obvious since the first episode which is a teenager in her late teens. People suddenly being appalled and ceasing to ship shallura now is ridiculous because it doesn't really effect their lives too much. it's just a fictional relationship that probably won't matter 5 years down the road. You can stop if you like but this ship is not inherently bad just because of an age difference. 

 Too many people are caught up in that toxic mob mentality that all content should have no problematic aspects to them but life doesn't work that way because real life is very nuanced and you have to find what works for you. 

 Learn what pedophilia actually means. Because if you keep using it incorrectly it loses impact of the real definition. (pedophilia is a real serious issue that I personally have zero tolerance for)

If you look through the tags and see the blogs abandoning shallura, 4 times out of 5 they ship klance. If you look in the Kallura tag you will see more anti kallura posts made mostly by people that ship klance. people getting the most worked up about Allura's age are klance shippers because they think Allura will get in the way of their ship. 

 klance shippers are super insecure. So they will attack/reject ships that they deem wrong under the guise of "social justice", like kallura or sheith. It's fine not to like ships but don't harass others just because you don't agree with them, especially when they are minding their own business and not directly bothering you. Just enjoy your ship and stop being so insecure. 

 When I first started watching voltron, klance and sheith had an intense rivalry but now it has spiraled into an all out war on what's morally perfect.I mean this feels very similar to rinharu vs makoharu in free! but the only difference is that both sides were more honest about hating each other. I mean the worst thing that ever came out of that was... actually nothing but bitter feelings really. hmmm. 

 Closing words: do no harm but take no bullshit. Don't start none and there won't be none. Liking things in fiction does not equal to condoning it in reality. And ship what you want and have fun.