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woman-loving · 4 years

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The Emergence of a Lesbian Bar Scene in 1960s Sydney

Selection from Unnamed Desires: A Sydney Lesbian History, Rebecca Jennings, 2015.

In addition to these social groups, lesbians were also beginning to join a much longer-standing gay male bar culture in significant numbers, reflecting a broader social acceptance of women and public drinking in the wake of reforms to the licensing laws in the late 1950s. Male narrators recall seeing lesbians on the commercial scene for the first time in the early 1960s, and lesbian narrators begin to discuss their participation in the bar scene from the 1960s onwards.[28] Lesbians socialised alongside homosexual men and drag queens in venues such as Chez Ivy wine bar in Bondi Junction and the Purple Onion coffee shop on Anzac Parade. Virginia, who first visited Chez Ivy and the Purple Onion in the early 1960s, went out on the scene in a group of male and female camp friends and remembers that: ‘It was very mixed. I hardly went anywhere where it was just for women. I think the women’s thing came later, yeah, the segregation side of it.’ She spent these nights out drinking gin and tonic, talking to her friends and dancing the twist, as well as enjoying the drag shows that were put on at the Purple Onion and Les Girls.[29] When Carolyn began to frequent Chez Ivy in the late 1960s she also remembered the clientele as very diverse:

“Chez Ivy’s was home to guys, girls, drag, bi, crossdressers and straights--I felt comfortable in this group and I would look forward to hitting ‘the Club’ each night and weekend ... The cat fights and tantrums were ongoing--this added to the fun of the night and drama. We had parents looking for sons and daughters, bomb threats, vice squad raids, scuffles with ex-lovers--but it was fun!"[30]

Chez Ivy closed at 10pm, but many revellers continue their night out at coffee shops such as Doddy’s on Darlinghurst Road and the Coffee Pot in Kings Cross, or at cabaret clubs such as Les Girls or the Purple Onion.

This picture of the 1960s as a period of transition from a predominantly male to a mixed camp scene is supported by accounts which suggest that lesbians, as newcomers, were not always entirely welcome at Sydney’s camp venues in this period. One reason for this attitude may have been the behaviour and image projected by some bar lesbians: a number of interviewees recall Sydney’s bar lesbians as being quite ‘tough’ or ‘rough’ in this period, in contrast to the more flamboyant drag culture cultivated by camp men. Lesbians were widely regarded as being prone to fighting and causing difficulty in bars with their behaviour. [...]

Although the majority of venues were mixed in the 1960s, lesbians increasingly made up most of the clientele at a few bars: the Trolley Car near Sydney University, the Sussex Hotel on Sussex Street in the City and the Park Inn opposite Centennial Park. Dennis worked at the Trolley Car, owned by Dawn O’Donnell, when it opened in 1966 and recalled the venue as a ‘long, old terraced house’ with a licensed bar downstairs until 10pm and an upstairs room which continued to operate illicitly after official closing time. The venue was popular with lesbians[...]. A significant lesbian clientele also mixed with drag queens at the Park Inn in this period. Karen went to the Park Inn in the late 1960s and recalled that ‘The majority that went there were women.’[35] Laurie, who had gone there for the first time in the 1960s with her girlfriend Helena and two new friends, also remembered:

“I walked in there and it was like seventh heaven. It was full of lesbians from wall to carpet to wall you know? And drag queens. I saw my first drag show there and that was it for me ... We went there every Friday night to Saturday night for the next ten, fifteen years I think?’”[36]

A number of the women who socialised in these venues adopted masculine dress codes and identities. Laurie recalled that all the lesbians at the Park Inn were ‘butch and femme. Three piece suits, cufflinks, ties, the whole bit.’ Laurie herself was introduced to this butch/femme scene by some lesbian friends, who took her clothes shopping in the men’s department of Grace Bros and then to get her hair cut into a ‘short back and sides’ before escorting her to the bar. Her girlfriend, Helene, retained her feminine dress and appearance, as she was adopting a femme identity. Margaret also described the masculine appearance of the other women clientele when she first discovered a camp venue in the 1960s. [...]

For some women, adopting a butch appearance meant potentially passing as a man. Colette recalled experiencing some confusion on her first encounter with a butch lesbian in the early 1960s:

“In 1964/65 I said to my sister, ‘We have to find some lesbians’ ... the only gay place at that time was a place called the ‘Hole in the Wall’, literally a brick circle had been made in the wall ... it was dark inside. It was in Kings Cross in the vicinity of St Vincent’s hospital. It was fully of very interesting people and after about an hour I noticed this very attractive blond boy, there was just something about him, and he obviously noticed me because he came over and spoke and her turned out to be a woman in fully drag so this was terribly exciting for me ... she looked like a boy but she was a girl, this was exactly what I was looking for. So we went home together and it was off with the frock for me and she unstrapped and stripped down to a t-shirt.”[38]

Colette’s reference to the girl unstrapping suggests that some butch lesbians in this period were binding their breasts in order to adopt a more masculine physique, in addition to wearing male clothes.[39] Some of the lesbians who frequented Ivy Richter’s venues in the 1960s were similarly capable of passing as young men. Ivy recalled one occasion on which gender ambiguity led to an altercation between one of her lesbian clients and a member of the licensing police. [...]

The extent to which femme women were a part of the Sydney scene in this period is more difficult to determine. While a small number of accounts refer to butch/femme partnerships and communities, many focus primarily on butch lesbians, suggesting that butch identities predominated. It is also possible that many femme partners of butch lesbians occupied a more transient position in the lesbian social circles of this period and were therefore less visible. Davis and Kennedy noted that, in the butch/femme community they documents in 1940s and 1950s Buffalo, ‘many fems ... became butch, others went straight, and others claimed to be too shy to be interviewed.’[41] A similar picture emerges in Sydney. In her account of a casual encounter with a butch lesbian at the Hole in the Wall in Kings Cross in the 1960s, Colette describes herself as removing her ‘frock’, suggesting that her own appearance was more feminine than that of her butch partner. Colette herself was a newcomer to the bar on this occasion and implied that she was not part of any coherent lesbian community at the time. Accounts of the Park Inn hotel in this period also suggest that the predominantly butch lesbian clientele mixed with other women as well as drag queens. Laurie, who had gone there for the first time in the 1960s, recalled that women of all classes mixed there and ‘there was one table that was reserved permanently for when the prostitutes came in, from Kings Cross, and they were all gay.’[42] The hotel owner, Ken (Kandy) Johnson, claimed that nurses made up a significant group amongst the more butch regulars and remembered one occasion on which he had received a call from the local hospital, attempting to locate one of their nurses, who was needed to assist on an operation. [...] Kandy’s account of this exchange suggests that camp women who identified as butch--wearing men’s suits and short hair--may have interacted with more feminine prostitutes in his bar. Whether or not some of the prostitutes had sexual relationships with women, Kandy’s account suggests that others may not have immediately identified them as camp, defining them instead primarily as ‘prostitutes’. How the women themselves defined their sexual identity, if at all, is even more elusive, in the absence of accounts by femme participants in this scene.

The possibility that femme identities may not have been clearly identified as lesbian identity model is also suggested by Elizabeth’s account of roles in her suburban social circle. Unlike the majority of women socialising in private friendship networks in the mid-century, who describe their roles and appearance as conforming to mainstream ideals of respectable femininity, Elizabeth recalled her private house party scene in the late 1960s as organised around a restrictive form of gender role-playing. [...] Despite her partner’s expectation that she adopt a feminine appearance, however, Elizabeth does not appear to have developed a clearly defined femme identity. Explaining the relationship between their respective roles, Elizabeth was unsure of the term for a feminine partner, commenting:

“You were a butch lesbian or you were a, whatever, I don’t know what you call it, but anyway, you were one or the other and that’s how it worked and I thought that makes sense.”[45]

Elizabeth’s ambivalence toward her femme identity was also apparently reflected by those around her, as she recalled attracting criticism of her appearance from a woman at a party. The woman commented that Elizabeth shouldn’t ‘think you can fool us wearing that dress’, suggesting that she regarded the adoption of a feminine appearance as an attempt to hide a lesbian identity. This account suggests that feminine lesbians may have been viewed with distrust in some Sydney lesbian circles, and perhaps not regarded as having an important or valued role in that community.

Other accounts, however, suggest that both butch and femme identities were consciously adopted by some women as an indication of membership in a lesbian community. Laurie had been introduced to the butch/femme scene when she moved from Perth to Sydney in the 1960s and she she and her girlfriend Helene adopted butch and femme identities respectively. [...] After introducing them to butch/femme fashion, June and her girlfriend Karen took Laurie and Helen to their local bar and the new arrivals soon became regulars. Descriptions such as Laurie’s are reminiscent of postwar butch/femme lesbians in the US and UK, where the commercial bar scene fostered a highly nuanced subculture based around butch/femme role-playing, and new entrants to the community were expected to adopt either a butch or femme style and behaviour. This was often a highly conscious process in which new members chose an identity and experienced a rite of passage in which they adapted their image to fit the new identity. For Laurie, the decision to become a butch was taken by her new butch friend, June, on the basis that Laurie was a better pool player than Helene. [...]

Personal narrative such as Laurie’s suggest that, while a number of lesbian identity models in the 1960s were characterised by an emphasis on secrecy and discretion, others, such as butch/femme, were highly visible and confrontational. Butch/femme lesbians, like Laurie and Helen, forged their identities in social spaces which they shared with prostitutes, gay men and drag queens and as a result they understood their lesbianism within a broad, cross-gendered community of sexual minorities. Similarly, the shared nature of the camp social scene in the 1960s, meant that many more discreet lesbians in this period also defined their identity alongside gay men, in terms of a shared attempt to evade detection by mainstream society.

However, despite the presence of consciously butch women on the commercial lesbian scene in the 1960s, butch/femme did not represent a pervasive subculture in the Sydney camp bar scene in the manner described by historians of US lesbian subcultures. Oral history accounts suggest instead that butch lesbians coexisted with women of more conventional appearance, often sharing the same social spaces. This reflects the situation in Melbourne in the same period, where Lucy Chesser has found that:

“while there were sizeable lesbian social groups which organised around role playing in Melbourne in this period alternative models of lesbian relationship were often avialable to women from working class backgrounds ... In addition, butch/femme role playing appears to have deceased in importance as the 1960s progressed.”[48]

In Sydney, other lesbians who socialised both within and outside of the bar scene in the 1960s do not recall the early scene as a butch/femme culture and did not themselves adopt either a butch or femme identity. Virginia did not recall a butch/femme scene at Chez Ivy and the Purple Onion in the early 1960s, although she conceded that ‘some of them probably were pretty butch’, while Carolyn described Chez Ivy’s lesbian clientele as a relatively diverse culture group.[49] The fluidity of lesbian dress and identity on the commercial camp scene in Sydney in the 1960s reflects the predominance of small, private networks in the preceding decades and indicates the absence of a long-standing and developed subculture in the bars of this period.

Moreover, the ways in which women made use of the new pubic spaces becoming available to them continued to be shaped by private networks and patterns of socialising. Both the bar scene and the camp social groups in the 1960s were relatively secretive and enclosed, making it difficult for outsiders or the authorities to identify them. In the absence of any homosexual press, bars and clubs did not advertise and only a few individuals were lucky enough to stumble across them by accident. The mainstream press could occasionally give a hint but most women were introduced to the camp scene by friends from elsewhere.[50] Virginia first visited camp bars with friends from a North Shore ballroom dancing club she belonged to, and Karen began socialising with lesbians she met at a hockey club in the late 1960s. Carolyn and her girlfriend were first introduced to Chez Ivy by a lesbian couple they met by chance on holiday in the Central Coast.[51] The enclosed nature of the scene in this period also lent a secretive atmosphere to socialising, which some women remembered as exciting. [...] Lucy Chesser argues that the sense of belonging to a secretive lesbian subculture in this period played an important role in affirming women’s lesbian identities and giving women a sense of pride in escaping detection.[53]

Friendship circles continued to be important, not only introducing women to venues, but in the ways in which individual lesbians made use of the spaces available to them. Unlike the pattern of socialising in London’s lesbian venues in the 1960s, where each bar or club possessed it own community of regular clientele with specific behavioural codes and identities, venues seem to have played a less important role in shaping identity on the Sydney scene. Women moved more freely from one venue to another, but as groups rather than individuals. [...] In this sense, the commercial camp scene which emerged for lesbians in the 1960s reflected earlier patterns of socialising in the city. Women continued to structure their social networks around small, private circles of friends and simply extended the location of their social activities as new spaces became available to them. Sydney’s lesbian socialising in the 1960s was defined by one’s circle of friends, rather than a regular haunt, and as a result women moved easily between the social spaces available to them.

#lgbtq #lgbtq history #lesbian history #bisexual history #butch femme #australia #australian lgbtq history #sydney

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star-anise · 6 years

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do you have any sources on the claims you made? im always willing to change my stance if you have legitimate backing for it haha

So first, I’m sorry for blowing up at you the way that I did. I’m not proud that I reacted in such a kneejerk, aggressive fashion. Thank you for being open to hearing what I have to say. I’m sorry for mistaking you for a TERF, and I’m sorry my response has caused other people to direct their own hostility towards you.

So, here’s the thing. “You can’t call bi women femmes” is pretty intrinsically a radfem thing to say, and I am deeply opposed to letting radfems tell me what to do. I’m trying to write this during a weekend packed with childcare and work. I’ll try to hit all the high notes.

The one thing I am having trouble finding is the longass post I talked about in my reply, that was a history of butch/femme relationships in lesbian bars, which had frequent biphobic asides and talked about “the lesbophobic myth of the bi-rejecting lesbian”; the friend who reblogged it without reading it thoroughly has deleted it, and I can’t find it on any of the tags she remembers looking at around that time. If anyone can find it, I’ll put up a link.

As far as possible, I’m linking to really widely accessible sources, because you shouldn’t intrinsically trust a random post on Tumblr as secret privileged knowledge. People have talked about this at length in reputable publications that your local library either has, or can get through interlibrary loan; you can look up any of the people here, read their work, and decide for yourself. This is a narrative of perspectives, and while I obviously have a perspective, many people disagree with me. At the end of the day, the only reason I need for calling bi women femmes is that You Are Not The Boss Of Me. There is no centralized authority on LGBT+ word usage, nor do I think there should be. Hopefully this post will give you a better sense of what the arguments are, and how to evaluate peoples’ claims in the future.

I looked up “butch” and “femme” with my library’s subscription to the Oxford English Dictionary because that’s where you find the most evidence of etymology and early use, and found:

“Femme” is the French word for “woman”. It’s been a loanword in English for about 200 years, and in the late 19th century in America it was just a slangy word for “women”, as in, “There were lots of femmes there for the boys to dance with”

“Butch” has been used in American English to mean a tough, masculine man since the late 19th century; in the 1930s and 1940s it came to apply to a short masculine haircut, and shortly thereafter, a woman who wore such a haircut. It’s still used as a nickname for masculine cis guys–my godfather’s name is Martin, but his family calls him Butch. By the 1960s in Britain, “butch” was slang for the penetrating partner of a pair of gay men.

Butch/femme as a dichotomy for women arose specifically in the American lesbian bar scene around, enh, about the 1940s, to enh, about the 1960s. Closet-keys has a pretty extensive butch/femme history reader. This scene was predominantly working-class women, and many spaces in it were predominantly for women of colour. This was a time when “lesbian” literally meant anyone who identified as a woman, and who was sexually or romantically interested in other women. A lot of the women in these spaces were closeted in the rest of their lives, and outside of their safe spaces, they had to dress normatively, were financially dependent on husbands, etc. Both modern lesbians, and modern bisexual women, can see themselves represented in this historical period.

These spaces cross-pollinated heavily with ball culture and drag culture, and were largely about working-class POC creating spaces where they could explore different gender expressions, gender as a construct and a performance, and engage in a variety of relationships. Butch/femme was a binary, but it worked as well as most binaries to do with sex and gender do, which is to say, it broke down a lot, despite the best efforts of people to enforce it. It became used by people of many different genders and orientations whose common denominator was the need for safety and discretion. “Butch” and “femme” were words with meanings, not owners.

Lesbianism as distinct from bisexuality comes from the second wave of feminism, which began in, enh, the 1960s, until about, enh, maybe the 1980s, maybe never by the way Tumblr is going. “Radical” feminism means not just that this is a new and more exciting form of feminism compared to the early 20th century suffrage movement; as one self-identified radfem professor of mine liked to tell us every single lecture, it shares an etymology with the word “root”, meaning that sex discrimination is at the root of all oppression.

Radical feminism blossomed among college-educated women, which also meant, predominantly white, middle- or upper-class women whose first sexual encounters with women happened at elite all-girls schools or universities. Most of these women broke open the field of “women’s studies” and the leading lights of radical feminism often achieved careers as prominent scholars and tenured professors.

Radical feminism established itself as counter to “The Patriarchy”, and one of the things many early radfems believed was, all men were the enemy. All men perpetuated patriarchy and were damaging to women. So the logical decision was for women to withdraw from men in all manner and circumstances–financially, legally, politically, socially, and sexually. “Political lesbianism” wasn’t united by its sexual desire for women; many of its members were asexual, or heterosexual women who decided to live celibate lives. This was because associating with men in any form was essentially aiding and abetting the enemy.

Look, I’ll just literally quote Wikipedia quoting an influential early lesbian separatist/radical feminist commune: “The Furies recommended that Lesbian Separatists relate “only (with) women who cut their ties to male privilege” and suggest that “as long as women still benefit from heterosexuality, receive its privileges and security, they will at some point have to betray their sisters, especially Lesbian sisters who do not receive those benefits”“

This cross-pollinated with the average experience of WLW undergraduates, who were attending school at a time when women weren’t expected to have academic careers; college for women was primarily seen as a place to meet eligible men to eventually marry. So there were definitely women who had relationships with other women, but then, partly due to the pressure of economic reality and heteronormativity, married men. This led to the phrase LUG, or “lesbian until graduation”, which is the kind of thing that still got flung at me in the 00s as an openly bisexual undergrad. Calling someone a LUG was basically an invitation to fight.

The assumption was that women who marry men when they’re 22, or women who don’t stay in the feminist academic sphere, end up betraying their ideals and failing to have solidarity with their sisters. Which seriously erases the many contributions of bi, het, and ace women to feminism and queer liberation. For one, I want to point to Brenda Howard, the bisexual woman who worked to turn Pride from the spontaneous riots in 1969 to the nationwide organized protests and parades that began in 1970 and continue to this day. She spent the majority of her life to a male partner, but that didn’t diminish her contribution to the LGBT+ community.

Lesbian separatists, and radical feminists, hated Butch/Femme terminology. They felt it was a replication of unnecessarily heteronormative ideals. Butch/femme existed in an LGBT+ context, where gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender people understood themselves to have more in common with each other than with, say, cis feminists who just hated men more than they loved women.

The other main stream of feminist thought at the time was Liberal Feminism, which was like, “What if we can change society without totally rejecting men?” and had prominent figures like Gloria Steinem, who ran Ms magazine. Even today, you’ll hear radfems railing against “libfems” and I’m like, my good women, liberal feminism got replaced thirty years ago. Please update your internal schema of “the enemy”

Lesbian separatism was… plagued by infighting. To maintain a “woman-only” space, they had to kick out trans women (thus, TERFs), women who slept with men (thus, biphobia), women who enjoyed kinky sex or pornography or engaged in sex work (thus, SWERFS) and they really struggled to raise their male children in a way that was… um… anti-oppressive. (I’m biased; I know people who were raised in lesbian separatist communes and did not have great childhoods.) At the same time, they had other members they very much wanted to keep, even though their behaviour deviated from the expected program, so you ended up with spectacles like Andrea Dworkin self-identifying as a lesbian despite being deeply in love with and married to a self-identified gay man for twenty years, despite beng famous for the theory that no woman could ever have consensual sex with a man, because all she could ever do was acquiesce to her own rape.

There’s a reason radical feminism stopped being a major part of the public discourse, and also a reason why it survives today: While its proponents became increasingly obsolete, they were respected scholars and tenured university professors. This meant people like Camille Paglia and Mary Daly, despite their transphobia and racism, were considered important people to read and guaranteed jobs educating young people who had probably just moved into a space where they could meet other LGBT people for the very first time. So a lot of modern LGBT people (including me) were educated by radical feminist professors or assigned radical feminist books to read in class.

The person I want to point to as a great exemplar is Alison Bechdel, a white woman who discovered she was a lesbian in college, was educated in the second-wave feminist tradition, but also identified as a butch and made art about the butch/femme dichotomy’s persistence and fluidity. You can see part of that tension in her comic; she knows the official lesbian establishment frowns on butch/femme divisions, but it’s relevant to her lived experience.

What actually replaced radical feminism was not liberal feminism, but intersectional feminism and the “Third Wave”. Black radical feminists, like Audre Lorde, bell hooks, and Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw, pointed out that many white radical feminists were ignoring race as a possible cause of oppression, and failing to notice how their experiences differed from Black womens’. Which led to a proliferation of feminists talking about other oppressions they faced: Disabled feminists, Latina feminists, queer feminists, working-class feminists. It became clear that even if you eliminated the gender binary from society, there was still a lot of bad shit that you had to unlearn–and also, a lot of oppression that still happened in lesbian separatist spaces.

I’ve talked before about how working in women-only second-wave spaces really destroyed my faith in them and reinforced my belief in intersectional feminism

Meanwhile, back in the broader queer community, “queer” stuck as a label because how people identified was really fluid. Part of it is that you learn by experience, and sometimes the only way to know if something works for you is to try it out, and part of it is that, as society changed, a lot more people became able to take on new identities without as much fear. So for example, you have people like Pat Califia, who identified as a lesbian in the 70s and 80s, found far more in common with gay leather daddies than sex-negative lesbians, and these days identifies as a bisexual trans man.

Another reason radical feminists hate the word “queer”, by the way, is queer theory, which wants to go beyond the concept of men oppressing women, or straights oppressing gays, but to question this entire system we’ve built, of sex, and gender, and orientation. It talks about “queering” things to mean “to deviate from heteronormativity” more than “to be homosexual”. A man who is married to a woman, who stays at home and raises their children while she works, is viewed as “queer” inasmuch as he deviates from heteronormativity, and is discriminated against for it.

So, I love queer theory, but I will agree that it can be infuriating to hear somebody say that as a single (cis het) man he is “queer” in the same way being a trans lesbian of colour is “queer”, and get very upset and precious about being told they’re not actually the same thing. I think that actually, “queer as a slur” originated as the kind of thing you want to scream when listening to too much academic bloviating, like, “This is a slur! Don’t reclaim it if it didn’t originally apply to you! It’s like poor white people trying to call themselves the n-word!” so you should make sure you are speaking about a group actually discriminated against before calling them “queer”. On the other hand, queer theory is where the theory of “toxic masculinity” came from and we realized that we don’t have to eliminate all men from the universe to reduce gender violence; if we actually pay attention to the pressures that make men so shitty, we can reduce or reverse-engineer them and encourage them to be better, less sexist, men.

But since radfems and queer theorists are basically mortal enemies in academia, radical feminists quite welcomed the “queer as a slur” phenomenon as a way to silence and exclude people they wanted silenced and excluded, because frankly until that came along they’ve been losing the culture wars.

This is kind of bad news for lesbians who just want to float off to a happy land of only loving women and not getting sexually harrassed by men. As it turns out, you can’t just turn on your lesbianism and opt out of living in society. Society will follow you wherever you go. If you want to end men saying gross things to lesbians, you can’t just defend lesbianism as meaning “don’t hit on me”; you have to end men saying gross things to all women, including bi and other queer women. And if you do want a lesbian-only space, you either have to accept that you will have to exclude and discriminate against some people, including members of your community whose identities or partners change in the future, or accept that the cost of not being a TERF and a biphobe is putting up with people in your space whose desires don’t always resemble yours.

Good god, this got extensive and I’ve been writing for two hours.

So here’s the other thing.

My girlfriend is a femme bi woman. She’s married to a man.

She’s also married to two women.

And dating a man.

And dating me (a woman).

When you throw monogamy out the window, it becomes EVEN MORE obvious that “being married to a man” does not exclude a woman from participation in the queer community as a queer woman, a woman whose presentation is relevant in WLW contexts. Like, this woman is in more relationships with women at the moment than some lesbians on this site have been in for their entire lives.

You can start out with really clear-cut ideas about “THIS is what my life is gonna be like” but then your best friend’s sexual orientation changes, or your lover starts to transition, and things in real life are so much messier than they look when you’re planning your future. It’s easy to be cruel, exclusionary, or dismissive to people you don’t know; it’s a lot harder when it’s people you have real relationships with.

And my married-to-a-man girlfriend? Uses “butch” and “femme” for reasons very relevant to her queerness and often fairly unique to femme bi women, like, “I was out with my husband and looking pretty femme, so I guess they didn’t clock me as a queer” or “I was the least butch person there, so they didn’t expect me to be the only one who uses power tools.” Being a femme bi woman is a lot about invisibility, which is worth talking about as a queer experience instead of being assumed to exclude us from the queer community.

#cherryhearrts #staranise original #answered asks #ranting in bisexual #lgbt discourse #terf shit #exclusionist shit #radfem shit #apologies to my girlfriend for not including carole queen in this post #she just didn't fit baby

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haroldtheyrewuhluhwuh · 6 years

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Okay look

To the bi women out there who call themselves lesbians or want to muddy up the actual meaning of lesbian and call lesbians mean for not letting you into their ~special club~

I get it okay, there are lots of reasons why you might feel ashamed to call yourself bi,

1) Bisexuality is completely pornified in our society and if you're a bisexual woman the assumption is you're straight, or looking for men's attention. This sucks if you're a bi woman with a heavy preference for women or a febfem and don't want to even imply that you want to date men. You think, "well hey I don't want to date men, so that means I'm a lesbian even though I do experience attraction to them once in a while." Being uncomfortable with the oversexualization of bisexuality is an understandable reason for wanting to distance yourself from the term.

2) You may have a trans partner and want to validate them by saying you're exclusively female attracted, even though that clearly isn't true if you have a male partner you're genuinely attracted to and enjoy having sex with

3) it can be harder to find icons in history that you connect with or to read about bi history. This is still a big source of frustration for me personally because the majority of well known bi women in history (and this absolutely isn't a moral judgement or anything like that because look, homophobic society, I get it) have been married to men and their experiences with women have been limited to affairs here and there, or maybe serious relationships in their youth that eventually ended. Even today most bisexual celebrities are het-partnered (the only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Cynthia Nixon) and personally I can't relate to that at all, and thought that because I didn't relate to these bi icons and related a lot more to lesbian icons it meant I wasn't bi.

These are all completely understandable attitudes but you know what they're not?

Lesbians' problems. Lesbians aren't obligated to let us muddy up and appropriate their terminology just because we haven't dealt with our own baggage regarding our orientation.

If we're uncomfortable with the phallocentric idea that bi women are secretly straight and bi men are secretly gay? That's our issue to raise awareness about and trying to redefine the only orientation that doesn't include men is only going to make that problem worse, not better.

Lesbians' boundaries are important and justified and trying to break them down just to make ourselves seem like better people or better 'woker' trans allies is a shitty move, and sex isn't activism. No means no for whatever reason, and lesbians will never be interested in dating anyone born male, and that's perfectly fine, men and transwomen literally have every other sexual orientation to validate them.

If we can't relate to current bisexual celebrities or historical figures? Be the change we want to see in the world, shine a light on bisexuals in same sex relationships, remind younger bis that they don't have to choose a side but at the same time growing up and getting straight married isn't inevitable and you can be happy and fulfilled with another woman. I see a lot of bi people talking about this and mentioning that they're more likely to end up in a straight relationship because of homophobia and the higher number of possible opposite sex partners. The second point is completely fair and reasonable but the first point seems like something we should be allying with gay and lesbian activists to fix, not just throwing our hands up in the air and saying "look it's not my fault I'm in a relationship with a lot more societal advantages than you, stop being so mean!!"

This was a bit of a rant but I'm just tired of bi homophobia okay, I want to see more LGB solidarity and the B needs to start pulling its weight in that department

#bisexual #bi #homophobia #lb solidarity #radfem #terf safe #terfs please interact

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astoldbykennedy · 6 years

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Kennedy: Yo yo yooo! Whats up? Its your girl Kennedy and I'm back with another episode of Ken Knows Best. Today we have some beautiful young women and a very handsome young man in the stu to chop it up and just talk. I got inspired for this episode by some things I saw on Twitter, but we'll get to that in a minute. For now I want everyone to introduce themselves, drop your Twitter handle and let me and the world know what you identify as for sexual orientation. If its nothing and you don’t like labels then let me knowww that! We're accepting of everyone over here.

Ozzy: [he smiles as she speaks before finally leaning into the microphone to speak in a slightly deep baritone voice, his Netherlands accent apparent in his tone of voice] Awesome! Hello everyone, I am Ozzy, Ozzyis on Twitter and all other social media platforms. I’m straight, and I’m absolutely glad to be here with you all! I can’t wait to get into this great discussion with these beautiful and brilliant ladies.

Randy: [looking at him before leaning into her mic] Well my shit isn't going to be great I'm Randy my twitter is damnrandy with no vowels. I'm from Houston with my regular ass American accent.

Jocelyn: [listens to their intros and smiles brightly adjusting the mic she leans close] hey, hey world, twitter, facebook and Instagram wherever you may be. I'm Jocelyn you can catch me at jlceyn. I'm straight love the fellas [chuckles] I can't wait to discuss the topic with these lovely people.

Monse: [listens to kennedy as she speaks as well as the others before she introduces herself] this is great! heyy everyone i'm monse, mobetterbluez on instagram and monsay on twitter. i identify as being bisexual and i'm pretty happy to be in tune with this discussion.

Scorpio: [chuckled while leaning into the mic] hey love i'm scorpio. aka ms levy if you're nasty. [smirked] scorpio and scorpio wins is where you can find me on all forms of social media. i'm straight all the way and i'm from college park maryland. and this is something new for me so i'm really looking forward to this.

Riley: [smiles and gives a thumbs up to everyone as they finish their intros] Hey world, it’s the kid Riley, at rileyrose on Twitter. I identify with vibes, and they don’t have a label for that yet so, call me what you will, that doesn’t mean I’m gonna answer. But I can’t wait to get into this, with all these beautiful people.

Randy: Wait, was i supposed to state my sexuality? Because if so...I'm a lover.

Majesty: [looks around at everyone, listening attentively before she begins to speak] hello everyone! I’m Majesty Mailo, bowdown2maj on Twitter and I’m bisexual [chuckles softly] and I think that’s it, I’m ready to get into this little discussion piece.

Danica: [listens to everyone introduce themselves with a smile before she moves closer to the mic, her voice soft as she laughed a bit] Well hi everyone. My name is Danica, but everyone calls me Dani. You can find me at ohdanigxrl on twitter, and Instagram as well as snapchat. Currently...I'm just sort of floating as far as the sexuality spectrum goes, but I do know I like men. I'm really ready for tonight.

Kennedy: You all are making me proud right now speaking all confident and what not. [chuckles softly] I'm glad we have a bit of diversity in here to get all the different views. I'm bisexual..if you didn't know, but I'm kind of moving out of wanting to be labeled. Its all a bunch of bullshit if I'm being honest. So anywho. I was scrolling on Twitter the other day and I saw that this girl apparently labeled herself as lesbian and is now dating a male. At first I got kind of offended and I can't even tell you why honestly because I don't know why. I mean she’s living her life right? But then I saw the negativity that came with it and maybe she doesn't know it yet or hasn't labeled herself as it yet, but people started talking about being bi. It wasn't my first time seeing something like this because people have negatively said stuff to me too about being a fake lesbian or whatever, but I just wanted to take a moment to let the bi people that are here advocate for what the fuck's going on in our community and for the others.. why do you feel like society erases being bisexual as a thing?

Ozzy: I saw that too, and it kind of made me upset because it’s literally no one’s business what you do, or what you don’t do sexually. Imagine if there were never any labels to begin with. She would’ve never been looked down upon. If people were never labeled as anything, there would be no room for people who think it’s okay to tell what’s the right way to do something. If we want that to end, we have to get rid of social norms.

Monse: i saw that too and i couldn't say that it made me upset but i was slightly confused at first. at same time though everybody realizes things at a different time in life. i personally feel as though society erases bisexuality because they don't believe or try to believe that people can actually like both genders. they think you're suppose to like one or the either and it confuses them. i have a guy but that doesn't take away from my sexuality because regardless of who i'll end up with in the long run i'll still have feelings and be attracted to either sex if i was to end up single. i think once people open their minds and realize what being bisexual actually is they would probably understand it more.

Randy: Well I don't label myself as Bisexual....I just say I'm a lover so I'm still going to speak on it. But that's like if a girl labels herself as straight but ends up with a woman, whats to say she's not in love with that woman? We're all humans and we change, we grow. We live where people say you can't have your cake and eat it too, well its my cake. You know? Most problem it seems that people have with closing off bisexuality is that oh I'm a girl and you're going to cheat on me with a guy and leave me or vice versa when if she was just lesbian who's to say she won't cheat on you with a another female and leave? I feel like it's an excuse to try and bash the other sex and force you to conform into a certain type and its shit.

Scorpio: when i saw the post i kinda just brushed it off only because that's her life and she's obviously happy so who am i to judge. what she's doing isn't causing any harm in my life. maybe she's trying something new we don't know. that's the thing about sexuality. it's not just something you can turn on or off. you can't fault her for having feelings for a guy.

Riley: I really do believe society creates these labels to divide people, not realizing that people can love who they want. I think the bisexuality label is often misconstrued for promiscuity. People think that if you can’t “choose” then you must be a hoe, and just want the attention from wherever you can get it. But that’s a toxic mindset, sexuality is fluid it changes. You might vibe with someone today who you don’t tomorrow and you don’t deserve to be judged for that. I always have been frustrated by people who were so worried about what other people were doing in their private time.

Danica: For the most part, I think just society as a general whole has a tendency to put people in boxes. And you can't check more than one. If you do there is obviously something.. Wrong. And it doesn't make any sense really because people are in a gradient, but as far as categorizing and things like that, it's been happening since...forever. With race, gender and of course sexuality. You check more than one box and we have to have a discussion apparently, when it's really love is love.

Ozzy: I think it starts with not putting a label on yourself to begin with. Don’t put a label on sexuality, especially if you know that it may leave room for people to judge, you know? I know there are people who label themselves a certain sexuality, and act another way. Is it due to the lack of education? Is it because they are just calling themselves what they think fits at the moment? It can be offensive to the people who do follow labels, I’m not apart of the LGBTQ community but I support it so much, and have educated myself.

Majesty: (perks up as she hears the topic before getting closer to her mic and shakes her head with a shrug) I honestly have no idea, it's like being bisexual you always have to validate your sexual orientation to people in the lgbtq community who could understand you. I think society can't grasp the concept that at the end of the day, it's all about attraction and intent. And that goes for every sexual preference.

Jocelyn: [listens to them and nods] social media always have something to say nothing good comes from it. I personally think that you love who you love. If you like women be proud of that don't let the closed mind of others discourage you. No one really has the right to judge you in the first place.

Kennedy: Yes! Yes! You guys are honestly all making me so happy right now because I can agree with something everyone said. I definitely feel like its your business who you like and what you do, but its also human nature to be in people's business. I don't know why its like that, but it is. Probably passed down from them nagging ass grandparents who got it from theirs. [chuckles softly] Plus social media makes it even worse. Jumping topics really quick, whew..can we talk about that article that dropped on that one gossip site? I mean we don't have to go into details, but how do you guys feel about stuff like that? Should we all just ignore it or take heed in what they're saying? It was talking hella smack about people and their relationships. Would you guys let what was said if something was said about you affect how you feel about your partner?

Randy: I mean it honestly depends on what they were involved in and I would be a stalker bitch that i can be and find out what's really going on, can I cuss on here? If not...my bad.

Monse: [chuckles at kennedy] we probably did get it from them but being nosy is human thing and sometimes we can’t help it but I agree with scorpio because happiness is all that matters in the end. but whew chile the ghetto, that’s what that gossip page is. being the type of person that i am. especially when it comes to my significant other then I’ll be lying if I said i wouldn’t let it affect us but at the same time it’s gone be something that we discuss and get to the bottom of because just leaving it in the air like that will probably only hurt later on down in the line. although we should never believe gossip but that’s one of those human things too.

Jocelyn: ignore it they want you to say something and if you do then that's how they know they got you. If i’m in a relationship and people have shit to say it's solely up to me and my partner to say something back or ignore and be the happy couple we destined to be. It's always the ones who never had a guy or girl in their life but yet has so much to say about you and yours girl bye.

Scorpio: since i'm in the career field that i'm in shit [covers her mouth] can we curse on here? [smiles] but things like that goes in one ear and out the other. you can't feed into that. people talk all the time. most of it i will ignore but there's a line and if it's crossed i will respond.

Majesty: I think that unless it involves you then it’s not really something that you have to pay that close attention to, it’s like a laugh and move on type deal. But if it does involve you then, ehhh...I would probably check in like “hey what they talking about” but that’s just if it’s serious. If it’s something petty then, yeah, I’m probably shrugging that off too

Danica: [laughs a bit] You know, it's funny you bring that up because I was thinking about it today. I suppose it's their job to "spill tea" But..it always makes me curious as to where the info they find comes from. And it seems like a lot of times, it's just to get something cooking, or stir the pot. I wouldn't have anything affect me if it was petty info, but of course I would want my partner to let me know what's going on. I don't want to be left in the dark.

Riley: I feel like what you read online is always too spicy to be the absolute truth. Blogs have said things about me that were fact, but then just assumed that my intent was something else. For example, I went to the doctors, so now I’m pregnant. Like no! I had the flu. But it’s for that reason that I don’t let what is said effect myself and potential partners. Yes, it may hurt my feelings in the moment, but I can’t let a masked culprit cause me to sacrifice happiness in my own relationship. Now if it’s something I was already thinking may have been going on and the blogs confirm, that might give me enough gall to ask my partner about it. But I never take things like that for fact. You can’t even confirm the source! [chuckles]

Ozzy: you should trust your partner enough to know what’s really up, but some of that stuff has some truth and you should be smart enough to at least ask your partner about it. that’s what i would do.

Monse: yeah i agree with ozzy, trust is a big factor in anything. but sometimes the things you here can be so outrageous and just off guard that you can't help but to question it. communication should always happen regardless though.

Danica: I agree with that for sure. At the end of the day, it's you--and that person-- and no one that's not supposed to be there. People can speculate but you know what's up in the long run..or at least you should.

Kennedy: [chuckles] Yes, you can curse. This is going straight to the interwebs and iTunes, but I agree. Sometimes you can kinda tell when stuff is bullshit, but like Riley said if you're already questioning something then I feel like its going to push you to want to talk about it with your partner and we know how much communication can make or break something. Everybody here single? Or what? My bad. I should have been asked that. A bunch of single people up here giving relationship advice and what not. [laughs softly]

Randy: I'm single by choice, ok? a lot of people can't handle my job so I stay single, but my advice be off the chain.

Ozzy: I’m definitely single and I haven’t been in a relationship in a very long time..and damn, I have no right to give anyone advice on anything. [laughs]

Majesty: I’m single as a pringle but I think giving any type of advice is just about having wisdom. Like just because you’re not in a relationship doesn’t mean you haven’t been and don’t know a lil Sumin Sumin. (begins to laugh) I know that wasn’t the topic but I hate when people say “well you’re single, you can’t give me advice” like damn without my advice your ass about to be single.

Scorpio: i'm single. i'm more so just riding the ride. i'm not pressed to be in a relationship and if i get in one then it happens.

Monse: no i'm not single [chuckles] but i think advice can be given by anyone because i'm sure we've all experienced something things in past relationships.

Jocelyn: I'm single. [chuckles] it's been a minute since i’ve been in one. I think it's alright to give advice you speaking on past experiences.

Danica: I’m Netflix and chilling by myself and it's also been quite a while since I've even been close to a relationship. [laughs as she nods in agreement to Monse] Yes, most definitely.

Riley: [laughs] I’m single and here to talk about sexuality. Cause me giving relationship advice is a dub.

Kennedy: [laughs] I'm just asking seeing where everybody is at. In no way do I think it has anything to do with giving relationship advice. Now if you suck at relationships and thats why you're single then you need to be on hush mode. [chuckles] Well everyone can still have an opinion. How do you guys feel about social media and being in a relationship? I know a lot of people think its negative and causes problems, but do you guys think there could be positive things that come from social media and your relationship? And if its so negative why do we continue to allow it to have that much of an impact?

Ozzy: Now social media can be a killer to people in relationships! Some people rather pay attention to likes, tweets and other random unimportant shit than their partner. On the other hand, I feel like social media should only see but so much of you and your partner. Woman crush Wednesdaying your lovely lady is totally fine, but telling the timeline your every move is toxic!

Randy: I feel like its only killer if you allow it to be.

Danica: A lot of the times I feel people use social media as either as a crutch, or a blind spot. For a lot of people, they show how perfect their relationship is on social media, getting all the hearts and like reacts in the world, but behind closed doors it's a whole different story. Or you're using to keep something together and make it it seem picture perfect. It's a fine like to walk sometimes I feel like, but you can't expose your whole life, or pretend things are sunshine and roses. A lot of people like to use as a facade and it shouldn't be..it can be great for a lot of reasons, but at the same time it can put stress on the wrong things, or blind people completely, when it should do neither. I agree with a lot of what Ozzy said.

Scorpio: it can be a killer when you're immature about it. just like what ozzy said all the posts about mcm and wcw is totally fine. but the moment you bash each other and wanna argue i think it's wrong. some things should be kept sacred.

Monse: i think that social media can only be a killer if you allow it to be. there's nothing wrong with social media and relationships because it's a free world with the freedom speech. most people have no problem showing off their partners and supporting them with whatever on social media. most negative things that happens with social media can be rightfully avoided

Majesty: I agree with Randy, if you’re being mature and handling your relationship like you should then social media shouldn’t be a problem. I feel like we give social media too much credit. We use it to validate each other, among other things and at the end of the day it really shouldn’t be like that. (chuckles) like the whole women crush Wednesday thing, I’m cool with it but I’ve had people get in my ass for not posting them but like...what should it matter. I’m not hiding the world from you or you from the world, I’m just not feeding into all that.

Riley: For myself and the anxiety I have, I try to pretend it’s not there. It’s not good for me at all, and I don’t know what good could come from it. If I post a picture I’ve gotta worry about who sees it and what they’ll think, if someone comments something crazy I’ll get all upset. And in the courtship phases it’s even worse. So I try to avoid it all around when I really like someone. For me, a person with anxiety, giving people easy access to my most personal connection with a person is dangerous. So I try to just stay away from it. But that doesn’t make me mad at those people who do choose to be public with their relationships on social. I actually think that’s adorable.

Randy: All in all a lot of people take this social media shit too serious and it not only affects relationships but friendships as well and it's just some childish unnecessary actions that take place. Like if the internet goes out while you're with the people you care about most, then what? You gonna be mad that you can't post a picture of all you guys on instagram, so? You're with the one you love enjoy it, social media is just online while they're right there. sometimes people do not get that and they let it control the one they're with, thats how they end up failing.

Ozzy: Do you guys know what grinds my gears about relationships on social media? The ones who put emojis over their partners or hide their faces. I think that’s an issue for me. It’s kind of a deal breaker. People make a lot of excuses about why they can’t post you or why they choose to hide you. Social media is big now. It’s important to me that my significant other makes it clear to people on social media they are in a relationship, because I instantly think they’re hiding something.

Danica: It definitely gets taken too seriously..Honestly I feel like it's become another social symbol of how well you're doing as a general whole. It was never that important to begin with, but things changed with technology and just generations I suppose.

Monse: i never understood the whole hiding situation. like if you don't want to post then by all means don't post but we're not going to play a game of guess who to figure out your mystery. it's confusing to me.

Majesty: See, I think the whole emoji over face thing is weird too. But I cant say that my significant other no posting me would bother me, honestly. I was just never into all of that. I just have to believe and trust that they’re doing right by me. Because if I let something as small as that get in the way of my relationship then I damn near don’t need to be in it

Kennedy: Honestly I don't see the big deal in posting your significant other, but I agree Ozzy.. if they are going to post you then they need to post you and not an emoji. Its ugly for one and they're definitely being secretive. I can also agree with you Riley.. when you're in a position of having a lot of followers or are something like an internet personality it comes with a lot of pressure. You have to be careful with what you say not to step on anyone's toes, offend someone and it makes it hard to be yourself. AND since when did it become posting a MCM or WCW that it meant you were like staking claim on a person? I could have sworn it was about finding someone cute or whatever. Cause I damn sure know Chris Brown ain't checking for me. [laughs] People are hilarious when it comes to social media. The one positive thing that I can say I've seen come out of relationships and social media is like people on Youtube with their significant others using it to their advantage to bring in that dough. Sometimes thats fake too, but hey.. it is what it is.

Riley: Well you know they say social media is a persons highlight reel. I guess the same would go for couples.

Randy: Hey cause if we claiming someone by posting a man crush monday? I'm posting Drake, I'll be a GREAT step mom.

Riley: [sings] Randyyy do you love me? Are you riding??

Monse: yeah some people can be pretty hell bent on the whole MCM or WCW thing but i've never really saw the importance of it being a must when in a relationship. even if you considered a person to be cute, you can just be giving credit where it's due. that doesn't necessarily mean you're staking claim, i feel like that's immature kind of behavior for some who feel that way. the only time i'd say that it was bad was if you were knowingly posting someone else's partner, then that's just messy [chuckles at randy]

Jocelyn: [laughs] people view it differently from one another if im posting an MCM it's more than likely I find that person attractive and it's a connection there.

Scorpio: my issue with the whole mcm thing is if girls post the same guy then they are sharing them. why can't both of them just think he's cute?

Danica: I agree with Monse on this one. [laughs a bit] Exactly.

Randy: I'm riding if he want, I'll ride, be bent over anything he need I'm WITH it all. I'll pull a mimi in the bathroom if he want it. [giggling softly]

Monse: that's true too scorpio but most of the time females only post MCM because they're feeling that person. so you never really know for sure if they sharing or not

Kennedy: [sighs] And thats where the issue comes into play when it got taken from finding them cute to be staking claim likes he’s mines. Which honestly posting someone as WCW/MCM isn't going to stop a determined person. I don't want to make this too long, but we were having such a good time. I have to end this on a positive note. So everyone tell me your go to 'I got a crush on you', I'm feeling you or I'm in love song.

Randy: my favorite song....? Probably a freaky song, like do my dance by tyga or something along the lines. OH probably some jodeci Freak N You. I'm about to go play that for someone i’m feeling right now.

Jocelyn: Mhm, for someone i’m feeling it would definitely have to be this one if you let me by Sinead Harnett.

Riley: mine is probably rather die young by Beyoncé or stay by Jodeci. If I’m listening to those, somebody has me all the way in my feelings.

Scorpio: i would say pretty brown eyes by mint condition.

Ozzy: The I have a crush on you song, or the song when I see a beautiful woman and can just tell her personality is amazing is, Can We Talk, by Tevin Campbell. My other go to when I’m in love is, Pretty Wings by Maxwell.

Monse: ooh those are some freaky songs alright [laughs at randy] uh my songs would definitely be sweet love by anita baker and brown eye's by destiny's child.

Majesty: Hmmm for someone I’m feeling it would probably be hella old school songs. [points to ozzy and laughs] he took my song, can we talk by Tevin Campbell but if I was in love it would be You by Jesse Powell...there’s so so many honestly

Scorpio: yesss tevin campell.

Danica: Oh gosh that's hard! The current one I'm loving for when I'm crushing on someone is Lil Love Song by Tash. As for a love song?? I don't have one. I need to get on that. [chuckles a bit] And Monse I love Anita Baker! She's amazing. That song is such a classic.

Monse: tevin campbell and jesse powell are classics, i honestly wanted to say lenny williams 'cause i love you but i didn't want to go back too much with the oldies [chuckles] yes same danica she is!

Ozzy: Definitely trying to serenade a lady with some Tevin Campbell one day, but I’m still practicing my vocals. [laughs]

Randy: everyone on some love and here I am with my tryna fuck songs.

Monse: aww that's cute. trust me if she likes you however you sing it to her she'll be happy.

Danica: [busts out laughing at Randy's comment] But it's okay! Those songs are great!

Jocelyn: Go ahead Ozzy im sure she will love it either way. [laughs at Randy comment]

Scorpio: randy has me dying over here. [laughs]

Majesty: Don’t get me all fucked up in this room, I’ll start tearing up just thinking about love (shakes her head as she laughs)

Danica: Aw Majesty! Don't get sad..if you do I'm always here if you need to talk or anything.

Majesty: (places her hand on her chest as she looks at Danica) aww thank you so much, I’m just a hopeless romantic, it’s okay

Monse: don't feel bad majesty, you're not the only one. i love love and the idea of it.

Scorpio: i'm one too boo.

Kennedy: [chuckles at the responses] I was definitely going to say Can We Talk by Tevin Campbell and You by Jesse is one of my wedding songs if not the ONE. Since you guys took my go to's. The next for me would be Brandy's Sitting Up In My Room. Just good vibes all around, high school crush days. Well guys I've enjoyed this time with you guys. I thank you all so much for coming out to chat with meee. To my followers, check these ladies and this handsome man out on Twitter. Their handles will be tagged. I love y'all. You know where to reach me. Peeeeaaace!

#kenknowsbest

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old-aout-save · 4 years

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Reidentified woman

Frequently asked question that I will leave the very long response to here, “How did you go from being deeply entrenched in gender ideology and mainstream transactivism to being what many would call a terf?’

Here’s my first draft, not super coherent but I’ll probably edit it down at some point: You may notice it getting less coherent as it goes on lol

Basically a lot of stuff just didn’t add up and I couldn’t maintain that level of cognitive dissonance.

Sexuality: –If sexuality is about an inner sense of “gender” and not what sex people are, how and why have homosexual relationships have been and are still persecuted? –Doesn’t it make everyone bisexual? If everybody can be attracted to anyone who looks like anything as long as they “identify” as the “gender” they are attracted to, what even defines sexuality? How can you be attracted to a gender? As in, what’s the difference between a male who calls himself a man and a male who calls himself a woman who both look the same that would supposedly cause a lesbian to be attracted to the later but not the former? –Is it possible for a woman to be only attracted to vulva? To be not attracted to any dick ever? Surely it has to be possible, claiming it’s not possible sounds exactly like forcing women to like dick, denying their own attractions and how they know themselves. Claiming everyone must like dick. That’s fucked up! And that’s what happens when sexuality is about “gender” instead of sex. Sexuality being about sex just makes sense, it makes the categories of heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual have actual meanings –What rights do a male and female in a relationship lose if the female identifies as a man? They are still legally allowed to have sex, get married, and be together in public, all the privileges that come with a heterosexual relationship. Is it not wrong to claim that that relationship is homosexual? Doesn’t it make a cruel joke out of the actual gay experience? –It just kept sounding like sick conversation therapy to hear gay people called horrible names and bigots for saying that they are only attracted to the same sex. Especially those posts about how gay people can “learn” how to love/enjoy sex with a trans partner Sexism –No one could provide a solid explanation for why it’s alright for a male to claim to be female but bad for a white person to claim to be black –No one could provide a solid definition of woman. If anyone who “feels” like a woman is a woman, what does it feel like to be a woman? Do little girls forced into marriage and fgm all “feel” like girls? Do the women who experience acid attacks and sex trafficking “feel” like women? How is it not sexist for men to say “I always liked playing with barbie and I want to have long hair and wear makeup, therefore I must be a woman” or worse “I’m quiet and prefer doing my nails to sports so I must be a woman” They are taking stereotypes and making them the definition of woman. –I realized, there are as many different ways to be, look like, have interests, act, feel, dress like, a woman as there are adult human females on this earth. The only thing you can say all women have in common, is being born female, otherwise it’s just sexist. –Socialization is a thoroughly studied subject. Trans identified males still commit crimes at the same rate as other males, not at the same rate as women. If there is one way to “act like a man” science says so far the way to do that is to be violent, and transwomen fit the bill. Basically no scientific reason that having dysphoria actually makes someone the opposite “gender” or sex. –Following the last point, I kept seeing information on women’s spaces being taken away. If transwomen were “women” theres still plenty of evidence that being female-bodied is an axis of oppression. And yet, any female only spaces are continuing to be taken away, they don’t care about female oppression and deny it even exists. Transwomen wanting access to female-only spaces just displays their male entitlement even more, goes to show they aren’t women. –For example, bathrooms, prisons, sports. Women fought for these spaces and now men are invading them, and we can objectively see it’s causing harm and danger to women and girls. Even if transwomen were women, they would still have male socialization, and be literally physically male, and that would still make them dangerous to women. –The way transwomen sexual predators are treated. They are treated like victims as well, people defend using women pronouns for them and criticize you for not doing the same before they criticize the transwoman. They are still famous. Or, people claim that those weren’t “real” trasnwomen. Which makes me think, how do you tell the difference? How do you tell who to let into the bathroom then? And really, no true scotsman fallacy. –The way they claim an inverted penis is the same as a vagina. It shows a deep carelessness for the true nature of female biology, what it’s meant for. It shows they think of vaginas as just sockets to have sex with and nothing more.

The way Dysphoria is treated –The checklists to take to see if someone is trans are the exact criteria you could use to tell if someone is gay or will grow up to be gay –Statistics show that children who are very nonconforming and uncomfortable in puberty will most likely grow up to be gay. Transing these kids seems like a way to make them straight, like how gay people are forced to transition in Iran. –In the community any questioning of one’s “gender” is met with You’re Trans. This doesn’t account for the fact that gender roles is what’s used to oppress women, to make them weak, small, submissive, restricted. Of course women are uncomfortable with their gender! Also consider that all sex characteristics of women are plastered all over the place in ads, movies, music videos, extremely sexualized, degraded, objectified, ogled by everyone. So of course women develop in puberty and then feel like they Don’t Want that, they don’t want to be a walking object! Breasts for many women are a cage, a sign that you are for male consumption, it’s hard to be reminded of being a woman in this society. But transactivism doesn’t care about that. If you question the norm, you’re actually a man. –The community is full of ways to get transition materials Fast without questioning the other reasons for dysphoria and without trying other methods of recovering from dysphoria. They say, if you have dysphoria you must be trans. No one says, talk therapy can help you recover from dysphoria the same way it could help you recover from anorexia. Just change yourself! –By getting materials Fast I mean, access to binders, hrt, and surgeries. They tell 14 year olds how to buy binders and encourage them to do it without encouraging them to talk to older butch women, older dysphoric women, detransitioned women, anybody. They don’t talk about how even binding “safely” can still cause permanent damage, about how optimally a person should be able to love their body just the way it is. They talk about how to get hrt without even having to see a therapist, about how young it’s possible to get hrt. How young it’s possible to get a mastectomy. While you’re young do it now as soon as you can never talk to a therapist go for it! –How detransitioned people are treated as never having been trans, as never having been truly dysphoric, as people who are trying to trick you and deceive you into denying your true trans nature, as people who are denying their true trans identity in the same way that christian homosexuals are denying their homosexuality. They act like saying therapy should be the first option is the same as trying to “pray the gay away”. –Hrt and surgery is treated as glamorous and the details are hidden. Just take “top surgery” and “bottom surgery” for example. Never “mastectomy” or “colo-vaginoplasty”. Experiences in my life that added to what I saw in the news –I was identifying as a “gay trans man” for a while. I have/had dysphoria and have been dating a man. What basically never made sense to me was that we could go out in public, get married, etc and never face any discrimination. So what makes our relationship gay? Furthermore, homophobes I met were perfectly fine with us dating. Even after they found out I identified as a man, they didn’t care that we were dating or see it as a sin, they just hoped I’d learn to accept myself one day. What they care about though? That my boyfriend is bisexual. Because Same Sex Attraction is what makes someone gay or bi, it’s what homophobic people hate. They were against my boyfriend’s same sex attraction, not his supposed same “gender” attraction. –A transman in a support group I went to would complain that people don’t see her (heterosexual) relationship as gay! imagine that, complaining that people view you as a straight couple, a safe, socially accepted, straight couple. –I saw a gender therapist and basically said I hate my breasts and enjoy being referred to and seen as a man, and she was like “that’s valid” and told me where I could get hrt. I could have even gotten hrt without having to see a gender therapist, as an 18 yer old! That was 11 months ago, and look how much as changed. If I had decided to take hrt, I would have regretted it so soon, simply because I have since been given actual information on the topic. 18 is really not old enough to make that decision, especially when the trans community has so much thought control and discourages questioning. I needed a therapist who could talk to me about the pain of being a woman in this society, about Why I want to be a man and not just accept “I feel like it” as an answer. In summation, so many questions I had but nobody could answer or would just call me a terf for even asking, so much blatant sexism and homophobia. It just didn’t add up.

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