#pierre coustain | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

realcatalina · 3 months

Text

More mystery with portraits of Hasburgs

These two paintings are located in different museums, but are believed to be once a part. Currently they are labelled currently as Philip of Austria and Margaret of Austria, 1483, by Master of Legend of Magdalene.

And it's kind of a problem. Because at least the boy doesn't look like early work of this artist at all! Not even remotely close.

So other artists have been suggested instead, and for example the girl's has been most recently labelled as by Pierre Coustain.

Which doesn't make any sense either. Because while this was court artist in Burgundy, he specialized in making coat of arms and flags, sculptures etc. Like we can speculate on Pierre Coustain's involvement in these portraits(figures by Pieter van Coninxloo):

But only about the coats of arms. This guy wasn't portraitist.

...And you know me, I am nitpicker. I my motto is:

Never trust period label...because often times they are added centuries later.

So of course I checked the labels. On first glance, they seem as very genuine. This form of letters was around in 15 and 16th century.

...So I needed some help reading it, but luckily on wikipedia it was in description of paintings.

Girl's:

Gedaen Int Jaer ons here 1483 tsinen v en Jaerre/FAT LAN M.IIII.C.IIII.XX ET TROIS QUE LORS AUOIT TROIS ANS ET TROIS MOIS)

This was created in 1483 and she is 3 years and 3 months old.

(Very specific...oddly so.)

Gedaen Int Jaer ons here 1483 tsinen v en Jaerre / Fat Lan m. III c. IIII xx. z trois ou ve. an de son eage.

Once again it says year 1483, but that Philip is 3 or 5 years old.

Like how does nobody question this? You cannot be specific to month with girl, and not know how old the boy was!

Unless the label is not original at all! And likely not even done in 15th century. Because at those days, labels weren't really popular. They took off mainly in 16th century. And given the amount of mistakes I doubt Margaret nor Philip were even alive when this occured.

Because have they been, somebody would take greater care in getting it correct!

(And, If the text is from much later it is damn well-made.)

So if text is untrust-worthy, the dating of 1483 is also untrust-worthy, and then we cannot even be sure it is Philip or Margaret!

And though the boy doesn't fit Master of Legend's early work, he damn sure looks very alike to his late work! (1510-1527)

But then these kids cannot be royals from Netherlands. This is not its fashion from 16th century. We have portraits of Philip's kids raised in Netherlands, we know what they wore.

And while, yes the girl's hat looks bit like 1460-1470s male hats worn in netherlands, girls didn't wore this I checked. And given Netherlands were already back then northern capital of painters. It's very unlikely it wouldn't appear in art of that time from that country.

So possibly these are foreign royalty. But whom?

Well, artist started working around 1480/1490 and stopped about 1527. (Assuming we have correct artist.)

And the boy wears order of golden fleece around his neck. And clearly he is not adult. List of knights of Order of Golden fleece is on wikipedia and it includes when people got it and their birth year.

So finding people who got it before age of 15 in corrrect timeframe wasn't that hard.

Six candidates:

Philip of Austria (who it is currently identified as)

Henry VIII

Charles V

Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor

Louis II, King of Bohemia and Hungary

Philibert of Chalon

But at age of 14 and 13, Henry VIII and Philibert are simply too old...to be depicted here. And Louis II's sister was older than he. And we know what Charles and his sisters raised in Netherlands wore.

Thus if not Philip and Margaret, the only other valiable option is Ferdinand and Catherine of Austria.

(if the list of candidates was complete...)

And it just so happens that if you put correct dimensions to these(in cm), and put them in order of birth, they don't look so weird...

Potentially this might have once been full set of siblings.

Done firstly around 1507(first four)

and rest after 1515, when Ferdinand became the member of the order.

...And if we compare what the girl wears with spanish fashion, then at least in examples from 1490s similiar hats were popular(not as much raised, but we always see them on adults. Maybe then the raise is not so high, and traluscent veils of this kind even much later(those are with cofia de tranzado)...this shape of neckline, also very popular in Spain at least around turn of the century.

In my research into iberian fashion, i didn't go that much into fashion after 1505(not in debt) and it's not ideal that I point to examples about 20 years prior to when I think it might be.

But it is a possibility, and would explain the resemblence.

...

However then we have to assume 2 more possibilities.

A) the list of knights of order of fleece was not complete...and we're missing candidates...and then once again, where does the fashion point us?...Spain in case of girl...

B) But what if the boy and girl don't belong together?

What if they just had same background(popular in Burgundian/Netherlandish court from 1450? to about 1507)

and same dimensions(by chance, or they were later cut to make them same dimensions)?

(C)what if both options? L)ist wasn't complete and boy and girl don't belong together?

Well, the boys who got orders of golden fleeces as kids were usually royalty, with whom Hasburgs had friendly relationship.

Only other option already not covered, would be either Christian II of Denmark-but he was made member in 1519-so he is on the list, as adult...

or John, Prince of Asturias and Girona. He married Margaret of Austria, in 1497 and died that same year. And Joanna married Philip of Austria in 1496.

We know Margaret's portraits were created in early to mid 1490s, likely to be sent to Spain, and probably Philip's also.

But what if Spanish send reply? And Hasburgs send their own painter, to paint Spanish royal children? That would also explain resemblence to Joanna's children. Because boy would have to be her brother, and girl Joanna herself.

Again, the boy seems to be later work of the master, but it was a workshop. It is possible one of its member simply became more prominent later in workshop's lifetime and it happened to be him who was sent to paint the boy.

And i cannot get further than this. Dendrology would be helpful here.

However as these portraits have year upon them, the institutions who own them think they have the correct date already. We can only hope they decide to test it anyway.

#historical portraits #mistaken identity #maybe #habsburgs

11 notes · View notes