#punitive justice isn't productive or good

[lunar1an]

it's really interesting to see how lucy idolizes john compared to his actual actions in arc 13, and also compared to the unhealthy direction lucy's own character is taking.

john felt a sense of duty and obligation towards his bound companions, so he made a deal to free them in exchange for taking the carmine seat. he could have chosen peace, happiness, and backing away from an eternal, senseless war, but his duty to his friends was more important than any of that--and even more important than lucy.

i'm not sure lucy has accepted that john made a bad choice there. she's gotten to the point where she feels like eternally fighting is an obligation she *has* to do, where it's bad if you don't fight, even at the cost of your own happiness. she blames the entire universe and literally anyone else for john's death except for john himself, completely removing his own agency.

and i think a lot of lucy's current complexes, her inability to put down the knife, her insistence that destroying herself for a greater cause is good and right, is because she doesn't want to accept that john might have not made the best decision after all. continuing the cycle of violence isn't how it's done, especially because at the end of it, you'll be so twisted by that violence that you won't be capable of making positive change.

[tobiasdrake]

So with everything you've said about Wanda's wrongdoings... do you still think she deserves happiness?

A lot of people will tell you that she deserves nothing less than endless punishment for what she has done.

[To be absolutely clear, at the risk of sounding like a heartless sadist, I desperately want her to find peace, but I can where the argument that she has forfeited her right to happiness comes from.]

Despite how much I tend to get on my soapbox about redemption arcs being frequently terrible, I'm actually a big fan of restorative justice over punitive justice. I don't think "does she deserve to be happy" is the right question.

Wanda is at once victim and victimizer. Setting aside Multiverse of Madness which is its own kettle of fish, all of her offenses were in one way or another a reaction to an offense committed against her.

Morally, Johannesburg is the worst thing she's ever done. And that was a product of a lifetime of hatred and resentment towards Stark, carried out under the guidance of a Stark weapon. In terms of scale, Westview is the worst thing she's ever done, and that was an emotional breakdown brought on by trauma inflicted from being on the front lines of a war.

Multiverse of Madness complicates things by pushing Wanda much farther beyond the pale. But it also insists that the Darkhold made her do it. So. Uh. Yeah. Wanda's about as morally culpable for anything that happened in that movie as Bucky is for the Winter Soldier. It's not a factor in this conversation.

What Wanda needs and what others need from Wanda are in many ways the same. She doesn't like doing these things any more than anyone else likes her doing these things. We want her to stop lashing out over the latest bullet-riddled corpse of a loved one dropped on her doorstep, and she would very much like that too, thanks. Her life is pretty fucking miserable.

Wanda is kind of like the Hulk. What she needs is an 'out'. Somewhere that she can build a life far away from the endless conga line of traumas that Stark and the United States and the Avengers and the enemies the Avengers fight all keep inflicting on her.

Wanda isn't some genocidal monster who murders people just to feel good about herself. She's a person reacting badly to some of the worst experiences a human being can possibly go through, who unfortunately happens to be so powerful that other people get caught in the crossfire. If you want Wanda to stop hurting people, all you have to do is stop hurting Wanda.

All she needs is a place where she can have a normal, stable life. Where she can meet normal, stable people. Where she can put down her defenses and finally start to heal, the way she never could in the busy and violent life of an Avenger. And where she can live out the rest of her days in peace.

And where nobody she's hurt will ever have to hear her name or see her face again. Then everybody wins.