#this ship got dramatic tension and character growth within it. i love that

[lemurblog]

Genuinely forgot that Dave is an octopus disguised as a man and not a man disguised as an octopus. some…..how

[ceruleanwhore]

MLB rant

     At this point, I am genuinely pissed at Miraculous. Among other things, Thomas has wrecked the quality of the show over shipping bullshit with episodes like weredad and, in the process, fucked everything over so that now, no matter what happens or who ends up with who, it’s going to be shit. In a lot of ways, he’s done to Miraculous what Bryke did to Avatar in the comics- ruined established characters and the overall story by trying and failing to take care of the relationships/shipping. At this point, Marinette’s character is so awful in relation to this that I truly can’t fathom how Adrien and Luka can still tolerate her, never mind actually like her. Where she should have been steadily improving this whole time, she is instead getting much worse. This, of course, is because the show is constructed such that there is only the few main plot aspects everything revolves around (Hawkmoth and the love square) but, even though Astruc is clearly trying to drag the show out, he isn’t adding any other layers to the show to make up for how flat it is, so in the process of keeping those main plot points static, he has ended up fucking over his own show and dragging Marinette’s character down. At the start of the series, Marinette was clumsy and socially awkward but in a somewhat endearing way. Now, a school year or so later, she hasn’t improved at all and, in spite of now being Ladybug which would be the perfect catalyst for her character development, she’s genuinely getting worse to the point where, as we see in Desperada, she now acts like she has brain damage or something. 

 The degradation of Marinette’s character is a direct result of Atruc trying to shut down side ships, including some within the love square, in spite of how completely unnecessary it was. He shouldn’t have been doing stuff like that at all, honestly, but things like that should have only been done if and when he was going into the endgame and setting up to finally put them into canon relationships. There are a few ways he could have done this more successfully:     

1. In season 2, after Ladybug flat out rejects him, have that be enough to initiate the process of Adrien moving on and have him be completely over her by the end of the season but leave him single. Meanwhile, from the beginning of the show, it should be shown how the way Adrien constantly says that Marinette is “just a friend” wears on her over time, plus Luka showing up adds another element that would shake things up and leave her feelings for Adrien unsteady. Eventually, maybe later season 2, Adrien would make another comment like that again and that would be the last straw at which point she’d be done. Shortly after that, she’d get together with Luka.

     2.Kinda like what I just described but after Adrien gets over Ladybug and Marinette gets over him, they could get together as Marichat in some rich dramatic irony. 

     So then there is the matter of character development. I’ve already lamented Marinette, but I’d argue that basically none of the characters have any significant character development. Chloe had the opportunity that got royally fucked over, which was probably also for the sake of maintaining stasis, but other than a couple people here and there, there isn’t much to be found. I think this is because there isn’t actually much content, when it comes to this show. About half of each episode is taken up by the akuma and what’s left tends to be more concerned with cute things like Marinette facetiming Alya about Adrien or bringing some macrons somewhere or whatever and, like I said earlier, there are no subplots that would provide more depth to the show and help promote character growth. I think it would work better if a) there were subplots and b) there wasn’t an akuma every episode, maybe just every couple. It gets really boring and repetitive to have half of every episode be basically the same and take up so much space so that there isn’t room to put in real shit and character growth around it. 

     Regarding Chloe, if they were going to give her a fucking miraculous, they should’ve been planning on using that to kickstart her redemption arc. It makes absolutely no sense to trust her with it and then have her proceed to not change at all. All it does is create a shitty situation where this bitch is now a superhero but she’s still a mega bitch so then when she no longer gets to be a superhero, that adds to her being a miserable bitch. Honestly, it doesn’t even remotely make sense why Marinette gave it to her in the first place and when I look back on it I think it’s literally nothing more than pure pandering in response to what people were posting on Tumblr. It would’ve made a lot more sense for her to have had some level of preliminary character development first before Marinette presented her with the miraculous. Also, maybe it could be after she’d made a bitchy comment about Chloe that then got a response that showed Marinette how she was wrong and made her feel bad and this is her way of making it up to her but, more importantly, showing how she’s getting over her prejudice and now choosing to put faith in Chloe and support the progress she and those around her have witnessed. Then, the miraculous and the responsibilities that go with it (plus Marinette’s inevitable end of episode apology) would catalyze Chloe’s continued growth and development but like the amount of growth she’d have already would be enough for her to act more maturely and keep her identity a secret, which would be A Thingᵗᵐ. 

     However, along that same vein, I think it’s absurdly stupid how they really went with the “everyone gets a miraculous (ﾉ´ヮ`)ﾉ *:･ﾟ ” thing. It makes sense to bring in one more but not this bullshit where everybody gets one but only sometimes. Bring on one more, permanently, maybe even add another later on (MUCH later on) if necessary but don’t just have this bullshit where Marinette just picks the flavor of the day. Also, her now being the guardian is the genuine worst decision, period. If it’s really that important to boot Wu and bring in a new guardian, have it be someone else like Alya, idk or, even better, a new character entirely. Wu said he had to be trained so I’d like to propose to have it so that he’s been training one for a while but we just don’t see them because since their training is incomplete, Wu can’t trust them with Ladybug and Chat Noir’s secret identities yet. But jesus fuck, Marinette should not be that person. She’s already quite Mary Sue already, she really doesn’t need that and the episode where she’s able to weild all the miraculouses to just throw in more shit about how she’s so good and so powerful and all that stuff. 

     So, then, there are inconsistencies in the writing, mainly in regards to their secret identities and shipping. In one of the episodes in season three, Master Wu told them they would have to give up their miraculouses if they ever learned each other’s identities, which is incredibly fucking stupid since he then just hands her all the miraculouses and makes her the new guardian. So she’s just supposed to hold that boundary because he told her to when she’s now the one who’d be enforcing it and taking the miraculouses if that ever came to be? So if (when) they learn their identities, she’s supposed to, as the guardian, take Adrien’s and give up her own miraculous but then keep on being the guardian? I think the line from Master Wu was supposed to add drama and suspence but that only works if you don’t go and negate it three seconds later. The other inconsistency that, to me, was glaringly obvious and just as annoying was when Marinette, Adrien, and Kagami went to Andre’s. Back when this guy was first introduced, the way it all worked was that when someone came up, he’d make them an individualized ice cream cone based on the person they love. In season three, all of a sudden, for no reason whatsoever, the fact that it’s three people coming up to get ice cream changes the entire system to some other bullshit all so we can get some over done, in-your-face adrienette vs adrigami tension in which Marinette is a Good Girlᵗᵐ. 

     Then, lastly, I find it extremely odd how there are practically no background characters and that the few there are tend to be recurring. If there are going to be 77+ episodes of “oh no that dude got akumatized”, it would be prudent to have more throwaway background characters to use for the akumas and then only use the main/recurring ones for that intermittently and only when it adds something to the episode and/or the plot as a whole. The classroom kids shouldn’t be the default, they should be used sparingly and with care. Not to mention how it also would be good to have more background characters just so stuff like scenes where they’re in the hallways in between classes don’t look so awkward because there’s just this one class of kids in this entire school (plus Marco) and literally nobody else. It’s a thing in every film or show that has ever been made but in this one, for no reason, there just are no extras and it feels so awkward at times. 

     The way that every single episode is set up the same and how there is that lack of background characters to akumatize so there ends up being a bunch of reakumatizations, plus the way that nothing much actually happens, in terms of plot progression, after season one all make it so that the show as a whole after the end of season one feels really stagnant. It’s like Astruc is trying to hold out and wait to drop actual resolution to any of the main plot points until later on but he hasn’t sufficiently constructed other layers to the story, like subplots, to have it still be engaging. In my opinion, MLB could’ve actually been completely tied up with the whole Hawkmoth business back in the season one finale, based on the content of the show, because there’s just not that much there. It makes me mad because the show has a great concept and I love the characters, but it’s just been shit and it’s not getting better.

[theonceoverthinker]

OUAT 2X20 - The Evil Queen

Regina! What a pleasure to feature an old a-QUEEN-tance over here!!!

Once you’re done laughing from this exceptional pun, why not stay for the rest of the review below the cut?

Press Release With the aid of Hook, Regina attempts to put a plan in motion that will help transport herself and Henry back to Fairytale land. But her plan revolves around a fail-safe that was planted within the curse, which if triggered could wipe Storybrooke off the map - and kill all of its inhabitants; and Emma’s suspicions about Tamara grow. Meanwhile, in the fairytale land that was, the Evil Queen asks Rumplestiltskin to transform her into an unrecognizable peasant in order to kill an unsuspecting Snow White, with the twisted aim of earning the love and respect of her subjects. General Thoughts - Characters/Stories/Themes and Their Effectiveness Past I think this segment was incredibly well handled in its framing. The segment is able to clearly show how Regina’s reactions to her life and her impressions about her circumstances are dead wrong while still telling a tragic story for her. Like, it is very clear that the audience is supposed to laugh alongside Rumple (A framed mentor figure with a touch more moral ambiguity at this time) as she’s decrying claims that she’s an Evil Queen and be with Snow in abject horror when we see the destroyed village. That said, we’re also meant to also see the tragedy of Regina being on the cusp of real change, only to have her own remorseless history come back at the very worst moment.

Besides just the framing, the idea of neutralizing Regina and making her spend time with Snow in an alternate form was inspired. The resulting characterization of Snow and the effects of her kindness (Namely that all it takes is some one-on-one time with Snow in order to remember the potential goodness in your heart because she is honestly just that soothing and kind of a presence) is something that’s honestly much smarter than it has any right to be. But what’s better is that for all of Snow’s goodness, it DOES have a limit, and that is abruptly reached and more when she discovers the burnt village. Also, great job Ginny for a small bit at the end of her screen time where she goes through multiple expressions of anguish after letting Regina go, both as a show of her building frustration with the consequences of goodness and her frustrations with Regina. I’m honestly willing to bet that right after this episode is when the grouchier Snow from “Snow Falls” shows up. Finally, I’ve just got to say that this is such a better handling of the possibility of Regina’s goodness than the flashback in  “The Cricket Game.” Here, Regina doesn’t just fail a test she was all but bound to, but she crosses over a tangible line of decency and hurts countless others. Present The present does a lot more in terms of plot progression than story progression, but it comes with more than a few solid character interactions and moments.

I enjoyed seeing Regina and Killian working together. They have a good rapport and the betrayals and speeches between these two villains are just great. I love the little ways they screw each other over, but also this light bit of compassion they share too (Ex. Killian giving his condolences for Cora’s passing).

The Emma, Henry, Neal, and Tamara subplot was equally interesting! The search through the apartment makes for an engaging mystery, even though I know the outcome of it. There’s always this worry in my heart that they’re going to be caught and when they do, it makes for a fun moment of realized tension. Everyone’s characterization (Or somewhat fake characterization concerning Tamara in her scene with Emma) is fully in-line and the conflict is an understandable one with little nuances that make for compelling bits of dramatic irony.

The plot progression itself is fine. What we learn about the trigger and Greg and Tamara’s plans is well spread out and interspersed between good character moments. Insights - Stream of Consciousness -”Actually, I prefer with the lights on.” I bet you do, Captain! XD -”She is his mother, despite all the horrors!” Very good, Snow! Look, as far as the current circumstances of this show and season have been thus far, I’m of the mind that the Charming family is currently right: Regina does deserve to be able to see Henry, but given her history and especially her recent behavior, limiting her visitation while she continues to better herself is a completely fair thing to do. No one’s denying that Regina is Henry’s mom and the one time it was done, it was appropriately framed as a wrong outburst. -”Rumple’s cell.” David...while still a supporter of the sentiment I just presented, that’s...too far. -THE PANDA BLOOPER!!! -”But I am not evil.” Regina, you just burned down a village! That’s pretty evil! -Damn, Rumple. Cutting off trade with King George’s kingdom. That’s coooooold. ...but kind of awesome. -I love that when characters, it’s explained how they’ll look different to the world while still being played by the same actor! THat’s clever as hell! -”They still see me as The Evil Queen which they made me.” Regina, no. -Regina, this is Henry. What did you expect when you were leading up to everyone dying? -Awww! Good job giving condolences, Killian! -I wonder what it would’ve been like had Cora and Regina (And presumably Henry) went back to the Enchanted Forest and started fresh? -Snow’s actually giving Emma really good advice here! She knows no one wants Henry to get an incorrect impression about the circumstances of his parents. -I LOVE the music that plays as Snow saves Regina! It reminds me of a superhero’s theme! CAN WE GET SNOW IN THE NEXT AVENGERS MOVIE?! -Killian, how can you tell that that’s Maleficent? I can hardly tell that that’s Maleficent! It looks more like what happens when the Mummy fucks Loki! -OH SHIT! I FORGOT THE GLASS COFFIN COMES BACK!!! -”Someone from another forest taught me. Long story.” HOLY SHIT! DID THEY HAVE HERCULES PLANNED FROM THE END OF SEASON 2?! I LOVE THIS SHOW! -”Not usually [Referring to how fun stakeouts are]. But this one? Yeah, kinda.” Awwww!!! Some cute Swan Believer! -I like how there is a direct consequence of Emma not heeding Snow’s words. -So I like how Regina has moments of surprise as Snow talks about how there’s still good inside of Regina. It feels like it’s just as much of a surprise to her for her own sake as it is for Snow’s sake. -I wish past Snow remembered this destroyed village in “The Cricket Game’s” flashback. Like this episode just makes that flashback even dumber. -Snow is perceptive as FUCK with the reflexes of a GOD! -I LOVE that look of frustration on Snow’s face as she lets Regina get away. It contributes nicely to her growth of disdain for the consequences of her goodness! -”Startling. Some people would say striking.” Is this a taco commercial, because why not both? -”The one thing I excel at is surviving.” I guess this is the first aspect of that line (Other than maybe his second voyage to Neverland?)! Neat! Arcs - How are These Storylines Progressing? Regina’s Redemption - Regina’s regressing a lot in this episode and I kind of struggled with how I felt about it. On one hand, it does work on a character level. Regina’s pretty dramatic and I can believe that would be her reaction to the idea of being stranded in Storybrooke would be a big one. However, watching this regression and seeing her say how she believes that the only reason she’s The Evil Queen is because Snow and Charming made her that way is just annoying to watch and makes me feel barely sympathetic at all to her plight. Like, if Regina hadn’t shown such strength in the first half of the season, I’d have felt differently, and while get that Cora’s death and this bean incident changed things, this is such a dramatic change that I don’t know if I can enjoy it (Especially when one considers how she was able to stop herself from forcing Henry’s love in “Welcome to Storybrooke,” an even more recent example of her strength). Jeez, she even ignores Henry’s pleas and memory wipes him! And I know she improves in the very next episode (I’m having serious Dark Hook flashbacks or flashforwards, whichever they would be called), but in the confines of this episode, it goes a little overboard. Killian’s Revenge/Redemption - So I know that I’m going off of a few lines here, but I love the setup for Killian’s realization that revenge isn’t what it seems. The entire opening to the downstairs elevator scene speaks to the fact that while Killian values his revenge, its conquest essentially means that his life is over and the fact that he shows even the tiniest bit of doubt there shows that there could be more in store for him. That said, until he reaches that point, he still does want revenge and will fight to ensure it, no matter how unscrupulous and awful he has to be in the process. Greg and Tamara - Gotta say. While not super impressive nor memorable as characters, Greg and Tamara are pretty clever with the knowledge they’ve been given. Their plan to recruit Killian and neutralize Regina is pretty well thought out, and their covert nature was only partially exposed due to a complete accident! Favorite Dynamic Swan Believer. Look, this one is just fun. Seeing Emma and Henry bonding on a stakeout, sharing ice cream, and breaking-and-entering together is fantastic and cute. I love seeing the little bond that’s grown between Emma and Henry, especially after the whole lying arc from a few episodes back. This is great payoff and plays into what one would naturally expect from an eleven year old when he’s helping his mom foil his dad’s fiance: could his parents get back together. I like how Emma explains to him very clearly that that’s not the case (And I swear, that’s not a shipping thing. That’s just a matter of being careful of his expectations) but also gets the added bonus of his speculations being a consequence of not listening to Snow’s advice. Writer Jane Espenson and Christine Boylan are our writers today! And I liked what they came up with. Snow’s character progression in the past segment is as smooth as peanut butter, and she’s just the tip of the iceberg. All throughout the story are well-written character moments with mostly good dialogue. It’s only failing is, as I said before, is some of Regina’s present dialogue, specifically during her conversation with Henry. Rating 9/10. This was a good one! The story in the past is, as I said before, better than it had any right to be and draws far better lines for the characters of Snow and Regina. The present storyline is equally interesting, albeit with a touch of exhaustion from some of the more repetitive dialogue. But most of the character interactions and story progression worked very well, making it a quiet wonder. Flip My Ship - Home of All Things “Shippy Goodness” Hooked Queen - Damn, Killian and Regina exchange some really nice and trusting looks in Regina’s office! Hell, Killian even being here and offering his services is pretty great for them! Captain Swan - I don’t think this has ever been pointed out before, but Killian kept the beanstalk cuff! While it didn’t work for me, Killian certainly gave a touch of value to his time with Emma on the beanstalk! Swan Fire - At risk of entering anti-shipping territory, I want to point out how the whole projection of feelings that other characters have been putting on Emma about Neal works SO much better here than it did for Graham because (1) they have a past, (2) they actually spend time together, (3) there’s a level of ambiguity to it which makes this time feel more interesting, and (4) those feelings are later believed to be true. Also, I just love Neal’s reaction to the door trick! XD ()()()()()()()()() We’re almost done!!!! Thanks for reading and to the fine folks at @watchingfairytales.

Next time...though I sincerely doubt I will, I hope I won’t have to PAN this two-part finale! XD

See you then!

Season 2 Tally (166/220) Writer Tally for Season 2: Adam Horowitz and Edward Kitsis: (50/60) Jane Espenson (44/50)* Andrew Chambliss and Ian Goldberg (31/50) David Goodman (24/30)* Robert Hull (24/30)* Christine Boylan (26/30)* Kalinda Vazquez (28/30)* Daniel Thomsen (18/20)* * Indicates that their work for the season is complete

Operation Rewatch Archives

[elizabethrobertajones]

You know, I desperately want Destiel to be end game as much as anybody, but somedays I think I would just be content if the show just textually acknowledged that Dean's bi. Something as simple as a dude at a bar asking Dean to come home w/ him while they're on a case and Dean saying something like "any other day I'd take you up on that but I can't tonight." IDK the subtext that Dean is bi is strong enough that I can't say the GA would be shocked by it and it would just be a nice textual nugget.

Hey, sorry it took so long to answer this, I’ve not been at my best for ages… Been thinking about this all week though :P 

I think it feels to me like the general audience can discard or mentally discredit an AWFUL lot of implication and direct hints - there have been comments and moments in many bits of media which imply directly or with heavy innuendo that a character may be interested in a non-hetero way to someone - especially things like teasy moments… 

Thinking of things like in HIMYM there’s an ongoing joke about Lily having a crush on Robin, but since she’s with Marshall the entire show, it doesn’t really go anywhere, and when they do kiss the dynamic swaps and Robin is left with kind of a crush on her and Lily’s over it and it’s all a joke, and even though they kissed it was a lol girls kissing is hot joke for the whole show, and it never turned into a discussion of sexuality, even if they would both happily stay married in their heterosexual marriages. (And… Uh. Robin stays married okay, I’m pretty sure that was the alternate ending in the DVD unless I hallucinated it out of sheer frustration >.>) Anyway to me it seems pretty natural to read both of them a little queer to full on bi, and if it had gone even a little bit differently Lily especially could be good representation for a bi woman in a relationship with a man who just happens to have ended up falling in love with him and that’s normal and doesn’t invalidate her sexuality? But yeah. No such nuance, so this whole thing barely registers for people and in general people would think it’s all a joke. 

I mean, even Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which is where that Getting Bi song comes from, has an episode where the main character has a huge rival-crush on the girlfriend of the guy she’s into, and gets so into her she even kisses her, but there’s no exploration of what that means to her and when her boss comes out as bi with that number, no exploration of if she might be as well, even if all these characters eventually might feel more comfortable defining themselves as straight it’s just weird to me there’s all these jokes about it which can go as far as kisses, use overly romantic language or a long-running joke of Lily heavily coming onto Robin or something, and yet unless you’re like a magpie collecting all this stuff it’s all still just noise. 

I bet a ton of people would not even have considered the characters were not-straight, even when directly pointing their eyes at this moment, consider it all as a joke or that it’s just something straight people do sometimes because of the cultural massive repression of bisexuality and the indications in more liberal times and places that when polled people will be majority queer to straight with at least some bi leanings… There’s all these headlines about gen Z being the gayest generation yet, but it’s not something in the water, it’s that previous generations have never dared be as open or consider that they’re non-straight, especially if they are easily attracted to people heterosexually… 

I think the Aaron scene was 90% of the way to what you are describing, minus Dean giving him a raincheck overtly, and Aaron admits it was a ruse before any further tension can follow. I think, having snooped a lot of blog archives in my time, that really was a turning point that got a lot of people convinced of the textual possibilities, especially with the director/writer commentary basically confirming it. And obviously it didn’t work to make EVERYONE see it, although fandom swelled that season and it was a very dramatic moment in the history of bi!Dean and Destiel within fandom. 

To give another example from outside the show, I’ve been watching Black Sails with my friend, who is very straight in mindset, and - major spoilers for that show ahead - the main character is confirmed to be overtly queer in the  middle of the second season. I think I know exactly the point I would have picked up this was a queer narrative in the first season, and what would have made me suspicious about the mysteriously un-revealed backstory. The build up to the reveal was amazing in the second season and I think if you didn’t get it you really need to do a rewatch, because my friend was utterly blindsided by the revelation, only catching on a scene before it happened (she does like guessing and is smart at TV if she knows all the cues to start with). But she’s - sorry - at sea with the character’s motivations and reasons, and understands his earlier actions almost completely backwards to me as she took him on face value for far too long without suspecting there was more than treasure and restoring his name on order, and not understanding his motives to be so political or to want to burn the entire system down or his utter alienation from the system; even after the reveal she didn’t understand the degree to which things were on the line or the forces pressuring him one way or the other. 

(I find it really interesting and I’m not really disagreeing with her, I’m curious how the surface layer all reads tbh :P) 

In any case, I don’t really have much confidence in a wider general audience taking throwaway moments to be full canon, and generally would need declarations and inescapable discussion or plot arcs for it. I think in some ways the trail is being blazed now - when Rosa came out as bi in b99 it had a sort of special episode educating you on it as much as being very sympathetic for bi people to watch and see literally a bulletpoint list of their issues and weird things people say about it acted out on screen. The subplot is basically the masterclass in addressing it. 

(So is the Getting Bi song :P although it covers less of the issues overall, it does make it fun and normalises the idea into a dance routine and deals with someone discovering the label for themselves and being thrilled it makes their life make sense.) 

I don’t think spn should do anything quite so specific or hilarious, but I love @bluestar86‘s concept of an episode which uses flashbacks to reveal Dean’s bisexuality - basically like with Robin in 9x07, but I think even just showing it was a childhood crush and he never figured it all out at the time but meeting the guy later in life makes things make a lot of sense or something… And we already have a template for that without going all the way into it with his reaction to meeting Gunnar Lawless, a childhood celebrity crush. So there’s paths to take which could do it.

But ultimately I think the issue is so messed up and tangled into the main arc that it would be next to impossible to confirm Dean is bi without having an utter drama about why not Destiel, as the two concepts are not, at this point, really separate or that you could have one without the other, though it would be easier to not address Dean’s sexuality in any way of assigning labels or having more than the immediately necessary self-reflection to deal with feelings for Cas without exploring deeper… (Not that I like that idea, it’s just, they could, you know? Not even in a “i don’t like labels” way but just something like Dean going “huh” and then getting together with Cas and literally no one ever makes a fuss or starts up a dialogue about why they’re now holding hands :P) 

But it’s been such a ridiculous, epic, drawn out relationship on screen that making Dean bi independent of Cas would seem bizarre and off-balance without addressing his relationship to Cas. Just because they have such an intense relationship, and within the text of the show are many many references to their relationship on many different levels, from snide comments to enormous declarations. None of this happens in isolation to other storylines or character depth. With the momentum and depth it has in the story, making Dean bi would be seen as a precursor to Destiel, and at this point cruel and strange not to address it and would beg the question of why they ever confirmed him bi in the first place, if not to leave the ship unresolved to the end but to be open for us to imagine it might happen one day when the story is over - or not, if we don’t ship it, and it’s the way to thread a needle to try and keep everyone happy. Which I’m not sure would work except for the people who very specifically would advocate for bi Dean but don’t think a ship is necessary. I mean, I know that’s a chunk of the Dean fandom, and it’s a valid way to read the text, and of course a lot of Destiel shippers are fully aware Dean is bi without any special interference from Cas about that :P 

And, I mean, in the same way, Cas’s story isn’t ALL about Dean and he has a lot of personal growth that doesn’t have to do with him or happens in spite of him in some cases. But it’s still inextricable from Cas’s character how much he loves Dean and how much Dean has meant to him, and they crossed the line of Cas loving Dean, unrequited or not, a long time ago, and Cas has been existing in a subtextual agony of being in love with Dean but seemingly unrequited for a very long time now, as that line was crossed before several season renewals made it  a painful wait for him. This doesn’t exist in a void to Dean’s sexuality either. 

So, I mean, I don’t know. I disagree with you about the general audience thing entirely, and I think this exchange you imagine could easily be absorbed by the GA to not really credit it as a full part of Dean’s character, laugh it off as a joke from him no matter how seriously he delivers it, and generally not remember him as a bisexual character. Because to straight viewers, they aren’t seeking out sexuality hints and confirmations, and such things don’t really affect their view of a character unless it becomes a textual romance. It has all the meaning sucked from it by their lack of interest and inability to sympathetically mould the character’s inner life based on their own experiences that match. If they’re not making a study of the character, these things can be dismissed as white noise, and in a few years time, a Buzzfeed article of “10 Pop Culture Characters You Never Knew Were Gay!” or something.

And it’s like, yes. We knew. We knew all along. We knew before it happened. But that doesn’t affect how people think of it.

So it feels to me like the only way if they wanted to make a real point of Dean being bi is to have the frank discussion, and devote a proper subplot amount of time to Dean’s sexuality, enough that it is clear and inescapably affecting him, or to confirm it via a relationship which would in this case conveniently by answered by the angel he’s been subtextually pining for for years, and who has his own arc of being pretty overtly in love with Dean to answer… should the show decide to go with addressing Dean’s sexuality, they have put a LOT of work into having this relationship ready and waiting, I’m just saying :P And if they only had an Aaron but x10 scene, it would STILL not really affect anything except layers below GA  - there’ll be more queer viewers who see it for the first time, and within these four walls it will obviously never be forgotten and will be a huge part of how Dean is celebrated by fandom, but I just can’t see it making an impact unless it’s more than a passing moment, because those get swallowed by a heteronormative void…

[rahirah]

Buffyverse tagging meme: Tagged by @demadingbillydolls – and just as I was telling myself I should stop getting involved in meta discussions, too... top fifteen characters? I like almost all the characters, and a few exceptions, it's very hard for me to rank them. 1. Spike 2-6 in no particular order: Buffy, Dawn, Willow, Xander, Giles 7-10 in no particular order: Cordelia, Gunn, Fred/Illyria, Angel 11-15 I no particular order: Lorne, Oz, Darla, Wesley, Tara favorite minor characters? Anne (who I think is the most heroic person in the whole damn 'verse), Harmony, David Nabbit, Clem ranking of favorite seasons of both shows? BtVS: 5, 3, 2, 4, 1, 6, 7 AtS: 2, 3, 1, 5, 4 top ten episodes of both shows? NOT EASY Buffy: 1. Once More With Feeling, 2. Fool For Love, 3. Hush, 4. Becoming Part 2, 5. Innocence, 6. Doppelgangland, 7. Selfless, 8. Dead Things, 9. Something Blue, 10. Tabula Rasa Angel: 1. Reunion, 2. Epiphany, 3. I Will Remember You, 4. Darla, 5. Are You Now or Have You Ever Been, 6. Smile Time, 7. Five by Five, 8. Disharmony, 9. Not Fade Away, 10. Rm w/a Vu ats or btvs? Yes. least favorite main character? Mmm, that's changed over time. There have been times when it was Buffy, times when it's been Xander, times when it's been Angel, times when it's been Wesley. Usually it's because the character is doing something I don't like, and not because I dislike the character as a character in the larger sense. In the long run... probably Andrew. I don't hate him, but he never grabbed me, and the vast fannish love for him has always baffled me. To me it seemed like Andrew never really reformed, just glommed onto the person he thought was the coolest guy in his general vicinity – first Warren, then Spike, then Giles, then the Immortal – and emulated them for awhile, until someone cooler and shinier came along. Like Buffy said, he was a mushroom. Him giving Angel and Spike that pretentious lecture in TGIQ that was obviously a proxy for the writers lecturing the shippers was the last straw. I will say that I think that as of S10, Gage successfully put Andrew through some real character growth at last, and I can believe he really is a better person now, as opposed to the writers just telling me he is. But I don't think I'll ever be a huge Andrew fan. top ten ships? (I assume this means canon ships only?) 1. Buffy and Spike, 2. Angel and Cordelia, 3. Willow and Oz, 4. Giles and Jenny, 5. Darla and Angel, 6. Spike and Drusilla, 7. Wesley and Lilah, 8. Xander and Anya, 9. Willow and Tara, 10. Gunn and Fred (If we include non-canon ships, then I have to throw Spike/Xander, Spike/Angel, Willow/Spike, and Buffy/Faith in there, plus of course the hottest yet sadly rarest of OT3s, Buffy/Spike/Faith.) do you write fanfic? Yes, in theory. Doing it practice has been difficult. :P what fanfic do you read? Mostly Spuffy, but if a summary catches my eye, I'll try almost anything once. when did you start watching? Summer of 1999, if I recall correctly. show recommendations for buffyverse fans? Farscape. Yes, I know, it's Muppets in space, but I swear to God you will find yourself gnawing your nails to the quick over the fate of those Muppets. The first season is kinda slow, but stick with it. It is a more hopeful show than BtVS in some respects, but it's got a lot on common with BtVS in that it uses humor to delve into some pretty damn dark stuff, and the protagonists go through hell and do not come out undamaged. For something newer, if you haven't checked out Lucifer yet, it's just on its second season, and a lot of fun. do you own/collect anything related to the shows? I have a few action figures, but they're ones other people have given me as presents. I don't collect fannish stuff much. how often will you watch an episode? I'll catch a rerun on TV now and then, but haven't deliberately rewatched in a long time. I was so unhappy with seasons 6 and 7 that I just haven't been able to bring myself to rewatch the show since; the unhappiness tainted my enjoyment of earlier seasons. I suppose I should give it another try now that some time has passed. how many times have you watched either show all the way through? All the way through, only once. Seasons 1-5 of BtVS, probably 3-4 times. AtS, probably 2-3 times. five unpopular opinions? 1. I don't think we know if Buffy is bisexual or not. If Willow can identify as a lesbian after sleeping with a guy, it's within the realm of possibility that Buffy identifies as straight after sleeping with a woman. Buffy has never said either way. It would be great if she is bi, but until she says something about it herself, she's Schroedinger's Slayer. 2. I think Spike was a more interesting character without a soul. For some reason, people always assume this means that I think Spike wasn't evil without a soul, when... that's the entire point. There's an inherent dramatic tension in an evil being trying to do good which is entirely missing once you give him a soul. 3. I don't think Spike was out of character in AtS season 5. Yes, I do think that the AtS writers couldn't figure out how to write him in the first part of the season, but not to a degree that I can't integrate it into The Compleat Spike. The corollary of that is that I don't think that Spike and Buffy's relationship in S7 was the be-all and end-all of Spuffy. It was better than S6, but that's a low bar to clear. In S7 Spike was deeply depressed, emotionally stripped raw, and generally fucked up. It's only in the last couple of episodes of S7 that he's making any sort of true recovery, and even then, I'd still call him passively suicidal. But he trusted Buffy with that part of him. He doesn't trust Angel. He's not going to be that guy with Angel, and he's out of practice being the guy he used to be, so naturally, he overcompensates. Any time he's interacting with Fred, you immediately see his softer side again. That's the key, for me; Spike has a softer side, but Spike has a lot of sides. And some of his sides are snarky assholes, soul or no soul. 4. I don't think Joyce is an abusive parent. She's far from perfect, but there's a huge middle ground between "means well, but fucks up sometimes" and abusive. 5. I don't think they should have given Willow so much power. It creates a huge problem plotwise; how can you have any tension if Willow can do anything? So they're forced to come up with handwavy reasons why Willow can't snap her fingers and save the day, and it all gets a little ridiculous. least favorite thing about the fandom? That thing where people take a character they already don't like and just make stuff up and insist it's gotta be canon. Like, Riley HAS to be physically abusive off-screen because he punched Parker and that proves he thinks Buffy is his property and... whatever. It doesn't matter how much I may dislike a character myself, if I see someone saying something about them that seems to be unfairly maligning them, I have a mad, quixotic urge to defend them. Every character on both shows has plenty of legitimate, in your face flaws and faults and moderately-crappy-to-genuinely-horrific things they've done. There's no need to make shit up to justify your dislike.