#where mahidevran has to convince him that it's critical for ibrahim to be on their side

[redxluna]

I've always found it interesting that, apparently, for some people the show's efforts to sanitize Mustafa into perfection actually worked against them in people still using the writing to point out flaws of his unintentionally included by the show that made them dislike him.

In this most recent re-watch, the one to stand out to me regarding that so far is how Mustafa, after learning that Ibrahim cheated on Hatice, basically lets him off with a pat on the back and a sort of, "Hey, my aunt's real 'sensitive', you know? So don't do that again, buddy."

If this is truly meant to be the most gallant and noble out of all the şehzades, then why is it so easy for him to wave off harm done to his aunt? Not to mention, we're later treated to Mustafa, after Ibrahim's downfall, swearing that Ibrahim could never have betrayed his father...as if the man hadn't openly been exposed for betraying another dynasty member he was meant to be loyal to in recent memory.

[mc-critical]

So I was rewatching some of MYK Season 2 and it had me thinking..do you notice the insane amount of parallels and overall similarities in character arcs between MYK’s Beyazied (Gulbahar’s son) and MY’s Mustafa (Mahi’s son?). Both had a sense of undying loyalty and love/respect to the respective sultans of their time while also meeting their demise at the sultan’s hands, both maintaining positive relationships with their half-siblings despite opposition from their enviornments, both being the only children of mothers who weren’t favorites but were extremely politically ambitious and skilled. Both being princes popular with the janissaries of their time and were seen as a looming threat towards the sultan’s power. I even feel like like Beyazied and Mustafa were similar in their disposition and sense of justice and morality. Tell me am I wrong here because I really can’t unsee it they feel so similar to me😭

Yes, MCK Bayezid and MC Mustafa share the same character archetype (hence why they have the parallels you mentioned), but that's the only thing they're similar in for me. The archetype is only a baseline for both of their characters - their development goes in a very different direction.

The thing that sets them apart the most from the start, is that Mustafa's strenghts and flaws are shaped more by sheer personality, while Bayezid is a character shaped more by curcumstance. That leaves room for more development for Bayezid where he eventually changes his stance on people around him, while despite of every hint of change, intrigue or word of advice, Mustafa's principles and beliefs stay the same.

Both Mustafa and Bayezid have a missing part of their lives that shapes their flaws, but that part is different in both of them. No matter how much support Bayezid seemingly had, he always missed his mother and wanted to see her face he's long forgotten, he wanted to see her all the more with each and every letter of hers. And once that chance presents itself, thanks to Murat, no less (good job, lad, good job, indeed....), he would surely want to see his back from exile mother in a good light, despite of all the wrongs she has done. That's why Gülbahar was Bayezid's blind spot. His love and respect for his mother goes beyond comforting her, defending her, hiding her mistakes and saving her from death, something that Mustafa would be also likely to do - with each event passing, Bayezid also begins to listen to her more and more, becomes convinced of her words that he's born in a middle of a war and sets himself even further against Murat and Kösem. Mustafa, on the other hand, has always been next to Mahidevran in every step of the way, with everyone around him avoiding their separation at all costs, hence he can be much more independent of her perspective. She can only go so far with opposing Mustafa's decisions, he always ends up choosing to do what he sees as right and just, even when his beliefs are challanged. He doesn't let his beliefs to be challanged by anyone. He doesn't want to let his beliefs to be challanged by anyone. He loves his mother deeply and he's also developed a need to protect her at all costs, but that need is based on his awareness of all she has experienced and to prevent her to suffer or worry ever again, not out of missing her whole self, which makes it a need outside of Mustafa's own predicament and decisions.

Mustafa wanting to keep his principles firm originates from his wish to prove himself to his father. Süleiman is Mustafa's blind spot. We see how much he wants to be next to him and have his attention even when he was little and since Mustafa was given a sense of purpose ever since then, too (while Bayezid has been living a life where he didn't yet see the dangers of the world in their fullest extent before Murat's complete downfall and before Gülbahar; he even mentioned to her that he didn't want the throne, even though he was constantly suspected of betraying Murat.), sure he would want to prove himself worthy and follow what SS (and Ibro and Mahi to an extent, too, but especially SS) has taught him when it came to ruling. (like when he chose justice instead of SS's order in E92, which, even though he disobeyed, wouldn't be right or just, since that person was slandered. Musti revealed that he acted like what SS has told him in the past, it being justice is most important.) Even when his father acted against him, Mustafa trusted him blindly, refusing to believe that a father could ever kill his son, even in close probability, no matter what everyone else around him said. (he wrote the letter when Cihangir told him of SS's words in E123, but Musti went to SS anyway, his trust being much stronger than his biggest inkling of suspicion.) He loved him too much, even when he slowly came to realize the growing wedge between them, never succumbing to the temptation to directly rebel against him. (except the kaftan situation, where his trust was directly put into question by a supposed action of his and even then Musti went to merely confront him and die as a warrior if it lead up to this, not kill him, and the trust became stronger than ever afterwards.) Bayezid, on the other hand, always sensed the danger Murat posed in some way, and he realized that no matter how much he proved his loyalty at first and refused drastic action at first, he would always keep suspecting him. Bayezid was allowed to see Murat in his biggest cruelty, at one point, Bayezid didn't see him as fit to rule anymore and was more than ready to dethrone him after an act too cruel by him in Bayezid's eyes. Even when he respected Murat, Bayezid didn't seem to want to prove his worth as much to him or to have gained his principles and beliefs by him and the bond between them wasn't as close, not for Bayezid. The cruelty of the world and Murat's own cruelty grew more and more, hence Bayezid became more open to criticize them and more ruthless, as a result of this. He strived to evade his wrath more than anything. And at one time, there was no turning back now between Murat and Bayezid, which also played a part in his execution.

The way Mustafa views Hürrem and the way Bayezid views Kösem are both very different, too. While I don't feel Mustafa completely hated Hürrem, per say and even in S04, he was rather done with her bullcrap than anything else, he had some resentment for her. He was aware that she played a part in Mahidevran's suffering and sensed that Hürrem giving birth hurts his mother. Still, he knew where the line was: he respected her position as a Sultana and the mother of his brothers, didn't blame her instinctively, didn't fault Cihangir for choosing his own mother in the kaftan sutuation and was willing to listen even in the peak of his resentment. (in E121, where he didn't believe that she wasn't behind the trap.) Bayezid had a more familial bond with Kösem, since she was like a mother to him when his real mother was missing. I feel he appreciated all the care she took for him and even loved her until a point. But once he turned against her, the mutual respect between them was gone completely, with him eventually discarding all she did for him and Kösem disowning him. His resentment for Kösem slowly grew through Gülbahar: the seeds were planted with the letters she was sending to him, which made Bayezid feel he didn't belong, opening a hole in his heart, and then Bayezid being open to listen to Gülbahar more and more with her setting him against both Murat and Kösem. Bayezid tied Kösem to Murat, while in truth, she acted outside of him. Bayezid eventually became convinced that Kösem was a danger. But while circumstances also helped, him standing "on the other side of the war" was bound to break them apart. Bayezid and Kösem already had different goals. The more he sided with Gülbahar's view, the more that cemented their rift. He fully stood against her once she confronted him about him hiding Gülbahar, that made him give up on her to the point he agreed to have her killed in the Eski Saray, since then it would be easier to take down Murat. Despite of Mahidevran's view and experiences, Mustafa's resentment of Hürrem grew because of her own actions: all her attempts to kill him are what made him embittered towards her to the point of him declaring that he won't have mercy on her and Rüstem. He views her actions separately from those of Süleiman- he's aware that she's trying to eliminate him with all her might and that she could maybe involve Süleiman in that, too, but still strives to see a bigger picture. All that is why his actions against her are more defensive than they're offensive and only go so far as to show her her place in some way, not to directly try to kill her, since he regards the feelings of his siblings, too. He sees her and Rüstem as a tandem in S04, but even then he would do actions more against Rüstem than against Hürrem.

I would say that Mustafa has a better relationship with his brothers than Bayezid. He truly loves them a lot and always considers what they have to say, no matter what, but his brothers themselves, even Selim, loved him, too, and never got in conflict with him, expect for the aftermath of him saving Selim from the janissaries, some side scenes with Mehmet when they made amends almost immediately or that one case where they both were little. And he indeed never stops caring about them. I wouldn't say the same for Bayezid, however. While he did share the same affection Mustafa had for his brothers at first, Kasim always had a strained relationship with him and it kept getting more and more strained by each day (even Ibrahim resented him at one point, too). And yes, truly, Bayezid did try to reach out for him many times, Kasim seeing Bayezid and Gülbahar's secret firsthand and the whole Kalika situation sealed things between them to the point of no return. He set himself against Kasim completely, turning out that Gülbahar succeeded to drive the wedge between them. (of course, Mahidevran also had this similar intent, but what I found interesting with her is that, E55 aside, she mostly tried to make Mustafa look at them merely as rivals and in E69 she did tell him that his love for them made her proud regardless; I'm preparing a whole post about comparing Gülbahar and Mahidevran I hope I'll finish some day ahahah) By deciding to take what's rightfully his, Bayezid disregarded his brothers, too. (I understand why he did, but still.) His perspective on them changed just like everything else.

I agree that both Mustafa and Bayezid have a sense of justice, but while Mustafa's justice is based more on morals, principles, nobility, familial bonds and "doing the right thing" in general, Bayezid's justice becomes more "warped". Bayezid sees many injustices done to him or his mother and no matter how much he held back from acting the way his supporters wanted him to, he comes to respond to the injustice with injustice, as well. Or worse yet, he already views the injustice as justice. He perceives leaving his previous, "purer" principles behind as what is right and since he's in a war, he's already ready to do "whatever it takes" to ascend the throne. It's like he restrained himself for too long while reality around him ensued. Mustafa was always aware of this reality, even if deep down inside, even when he was trying to deny it when it came to SS, yet he chose not to leave "his own self" behind. Despite of all the intrigues against him, he responded to the injustice with justice. He held onto this until the end. He held onto this in spite of every opposition or injustice. And yes, both of these approaches were to Mustafa and Bayezid's detriments, respectively, in their distinct circumstances.

Sure, both of Mustafa and Bayezid did "the right thing" prior to their executions (going to SS - choosing not to go to the persian şah as a way out). It was expected for Mustafa, due to his established character and flaws, but for Bayezid it has become the exception - I saw him as more irritated that Gülbahar and Sinan worked behind his back when he told them not to a while ago, but maybe when he didn't succeed to do what he attempted to get on the throne, he decided that he'd rather die, but not run. And his mother's safety was still his first priority, even in death. Even then he didn't exactly realize his mistake, rather that he would be executed for it, since he still acted high and mighty in front of Kösem. Mustafa wasn't really aware of why SS called him in the first place, he wasn't aware of the intrigue with the letter, he didn't know what went wrong, hence he didn't have a true reason to doubt all that, despite of the words of everyone else, so of course he approached the situation like he typically would. It was only Cihangir's words to him where the doubt appeared and he still didn't back down on his decision. Bayezid took a more immediate decision based on curcumstance (with one scene with him ruminating in his chambers), while Mustafa took the decision he usually would. They were both executed by their fathers, but due to different reasons and even before the executions and with their once same foundation as characters, both of them acted differently here.

Though no matter how different they turn out to be in hindsight for me, I still consider MCK Bayezid as a response to MC Mustafa anyway - what MC Mustafa would've been if he let curcumstance influence him and decided to act against his father. (I also did mention in your previous ask about Mustafa that the fandom does tend to view him as MCK Bayezid's exact copy sometimes, but that isn't quite true.) When the crippling realization that your parent could disregard you comes through and you decide not to stand by that and let your survival instinct kick in, after all. Anyhow, I find both of them very interesting to compare and contrast and I love both of their characters, so thanks for giving me the chance to delve into this topic at last. ^^

[mc-critical]

I really don’t understand the amount of people who apparently dislike Mihrimah for not giving Rüstem a chance/not having Rüstem grow on her. I don’t know entirely how I feel about Mihrimah as a character but I feel like if you were to dislike her that’d be a silly reason. It was a opportunistic marriage, one she never wanted and to a man she never loved. Not to mention he was also borderline pedophilic (when he said to her on her wedding night that he had been “waiting for this moment for years” when she was 17..okay) and then coercing her into consumating the marriage through the threat of suicide. Sure, the circumstances of Rüstem’s life were sad, but I don’t understand how that entails him being *entitled* to Mihrimah’s love or affection. And if anything I found Rüstem to be misogynistic and possibly even abusive, which likely made marriage to him all the worse. Mihrimah’s definitely not perfect or above criticism, but that doesn’t mean she owed any man love, sex or affection, royal borne woman or not.

I don't understand them, either. Because this is the last thing Mihrimah should be disliked for.

Rüstem is a very odious character with minimal redeeming qualities. His supposed love for Mihrimah is established disturbingly early on and while that may have fled over the audience's heads (it sure did fly over my head when I first watched the show!) because their marriage is a historical fact and as such, is automatically considered the normal course of things - the questionable pedophilic implications are definitely there and send off the alarming signs of utterly problematic behavior. Sure, he's done his duty by saving her after she fell off a horse and (little!) Mihrimah thanked him for it, but it is clearly seen in his eyes by the second episode he's on-screen that there's something more and something baffling when the girl is so young. And it only escalated from there.

Obviously, most of his fanbase ignores or flat out misses this aspect of his character, but I also find people that think that his attitude to Mihrimah is the only bad thing about Rüstem when I find most of his negative traits to be present outside of Mihrimah, but with her witnessing them. I feel the connection to Iskender Çelebi and the way he bacame the stable-man of the castle are his most important character establishing moments: they shine a light into his sneakiness and ability to play dirty, but also reveal his immediate prejudice against Ibrahim. The ambition, similar to Hürrem's, but not for the same reasons, is set up from the get-go. He's seemingly following Iskender, just like he comes to seemigly follow Hürrem, but he always forges his own path for his own gain. His alleged "loyalty" is the thing that Rüstem usually gets the most credit for, but while he begins to look like Hürrem's loyal companion that shall fulfill her every order, this whole facade is deconstructed and ultimately, totally broken apart in S04. His character establishing moments recontextualize all the decisions he makes in that season and show the true nature of his ambition: he followed Hürrem when she prevailed over everyone, he followed her when she seemingly gave him the world and all the desired power and when she and the one she wanted for the throne were put into a disadvantaged position and Selim got the upper hand, he ran straight for the opportunity, despite of him making an oath in front of the Quran not to do that. He turns out to be simply an opportunist hyena who works only for his own gain. Nothing more. Just like he saw the opportunity to get rid of the stable-man before him in the past, now he sees the opportunity to be on the winning side again with Selim. He doesn't care who is he in front of and who he promised what, as long as they're of no use to him, he bails. His "loyalty" immediately disappears from his positive traits, because it turns out he never had it in the first place. People praise him for his loyalty for Mihrimah, but that "loyalty" also lasted so long - when he found out that she wouldn't ever come to love him, he began to bang with Gracia Mendez, in conjunction with the betrayal of what Hürrem stood up for. Now, tell me, how can Mihrimah love such a guy? That was one of the only reasons she tolerated him and when even that was lost, how can she still keep her ties with him?

[His backstory is sad indeed, but the only thing it does is put his actions into perspective, not justify them or make him likeable somehow. Especially when what that "character lore dump" specifically explains is his refusal to tell Nigar where her daughter is - the backstory makes that action logical for his character, but it's still framed as nothing short of spiteful. That said, he still does have some soft sides and the arc with his brother is where I found him the most sympathetic - this is the time Rüstem actually showed vulnerability without false alarms or disguise and his brother was probably the only thing that was precious to him and stayed precious after all these years, consistently throughout his screentime. What helps even more, is the brother's role as a moral compass and the last bridge between the past/his loyalties and the future/the victories he would achieve through opportunism. That was the last gasp of what was left of his possible humanity and after his brother was killed, he let it go almost instantly, because... well, after he willingly chose his own life in the saray, he might as well continue to live it, right? Him saving a boy in S03 without any hesitation whatsoever, was also respectable. But these demonstrations of a softer side of his being are also taking place outside of Mihrimah, but with her not witnessing them altogether. And they do little in changing the general impression of Rüstem's character and his relationship with Mihrimah.]

We have to keep in mind that Mihrimah's whole S03 arc was finding purpose in her life and finding true love. She had many love stories throughout the series with different people, different personalities and different motives to try to make it work with them. No matter what they've went through together and despite of them all having the same outcomes due to different outside (and inside) factors, there is a reason she fell for these people in the first place. Okay, while for Bali Bey it was a bizarre, puppy, immature, childish love, for Taşlicalı something truly genuine began to flourish with all the glances, poems, dedication (Mahidevran succeeded to break them up, but it's not to be denied that Taşlicalı was very hard to convince and he was still thinking of her afterwards) and sweet words. She got a call for a new adventure with him. Bali Bey, on the other hand, was adored by her mostly for his handsomeness, I feel, but even when he tore all her dreams apart, he showed tact and respect. What I mean to say is, if Rüstem has qualities that are "worthy of Mihrimah", wouldn't she see them? Wouldn't she see all these virtues? Because all she sees before the marriage are his words that she will marry him, that she will be his and that's it. The best she sees of him is his good manners when he asks her whether she wants something or stuff, but he could do that with everyone else, knowing his post, and the previous implications make even that alone head scratching. Why would she want a man like that? I agree with all your points. Are you, people, denying Mihrimah her feelings? She realized the potential advantages of this marriage and agreed to do it regardless, why does she have to come to love him when he truly gives her no real reasons to, even before she married him?

I believe Rüstem cares about Mihrimah, albeit in his own distorted, toxic way, but in reality, he didn't do her any good. His relationship with Mihrimah revels in manipulation and facades for her to keep, because she has to "protect" her brothers. Rüstem never actually took account of her own feelings or opinions on matters, especially when what she proposed wasn't an opportunistic enough option for him to afford. Their interactions are mostly focused on the survival of the game and the actions that have to be taken to achieve that. He often puts an unbelievable amount of pressure on her, which while given because of the system they live in, hurt more than it helped. Their relationship was never allowed to flourish in a healthy manner and Mihrimah could never be truly herself in it, not even for a moment. The castle she lived in, her home, was merely full of tension every day, not a source of comfort. His stoic, serious cunning contrasts with her own spirit. Not to mention that it always seemed he considered his marriage to Mihrimah as a price, a goal he had finally achieved and I doubt that she wasn't aware of it to some extent. The root of the marriage is only political opportunism and no matter how hard you try, you simply cannot force a person to love someone they're with only out of sheer necessity, only for a purpose for "the greater good". Rüstem never did anything to earn Mihrimah's love and she shouldn't be hated for not loving him. This is what MC Rüstem is as a character, whether we like it or not, and he isn't a healthy person for Mihrimah. If she couldn't warm up to him when she fully got to know him in their alone time, that means something is missing. That means he just isn't for her and. that's. OKAY.

But there may be reasons why some people could dislike Mihrimah because of it. I offer my experience with cases I've encountered in forums: these people are usually very invested in Hürrem's character to the point they view everything she does as excusable, at the least, so of course they would want to justify Hürrem marrying Mihrimah to Rüstem. But plainly selfish political gain is no justification and that may leave cracks in their view of Hürrem and it all may disturb them to a great amount. That's why they channel this ire on Mihrimah and perhaps demand for her to warm up to Rüstem, so they get the justification Hürrem supposedly deserves, especially paralleled with Valide and Mahidevran's previous attempt to marry Aybige and Mustafa, who.. surprise, surprise (but not really), didn't love each other. There's another facet to this, with people seeing or wanting to see Mihri only as "her mother's daughter" and not wanting to marry, not loving Rüstem destroys that picture, because there's a "crack in the system", she doesn't listen to her mother, who obviously knows better and that could be disappointing or demotivating, given the expectations she has set when she defended her in E84. Or maybe they dislike Mihrimah for not loving Rüstem, because they do find something in him. They love "bad boys" and genuinely don't know why Mihrimah doesn't, either and that could make them see her as an annoyance. Or maybe they just anticipate more juicy scenes between her and Rüstem because of the probable chemistry between the two actors and if they watch it only for the spectacle (believe me, such people really exist!), they may insist that Mihrimah is only spoiled and ruined everything for them. Or maybe, again, people may find this insulting to the historical facts or whatnot and if Mihrimah didn't not stand him, this "mess" of writing could be fixed a little. The writers have ruined her character along with the history, according to them. It's absurd, I know and I don't get it, either, but the reasons are there, as far as I'm concerned. That still doesn't take away from the fact that this is the weirdest accusation you could throw at Mihrimah, with how Rüstem himself is.

You're right that Mihrimah has many other, vastly more offputting traits that she could be disliked for. Little Mihrimah is very brash and spoiled and entitled, to the point she gave her own mother a run for her money. That was gone when she grew up, but it would be understandable if some didn't actually believe the change, especially when she shows this side of hers again every now and then. She could be perceptive, but could also be prone to influence at the same time, sometimes to an annoying degree. There have been times where she has let her own bias lead her and that clouded her judgement in several occasions. She came to idealize her mother too much sometimes, as well. She was terribly insistent on her infatuation with Bali Bey and letting go of it took her very long. She didn't want to listen much to the enemies of her own mother. Her huge love for Bayezid prevented her from viewing Selim as objectively. She could be vengeful. She could be bossy. She couldn't fully face someone calling her out on her mistakes. (the confrontation with Selim in E139) She became so engrained to her castle life that when she was offered a way out, she didn't follow it. All these are very interesting character flaws for me, but I get why they might be a dealbreaker. But disliking or hating her for not loving Rüstem? Heck, hating her for her contribution to Mustafa's death alone is more valid than that! Disliking her for all these flaws piling up together is perfectly reasonable. But for this? It's strange.