#wot on prime critical

[iliiuan]

Of the hot, hot mess that was wot on prime s2 e8, Nynaeve's storyline was the most infuriating.

First, she has MAJOR ISSUES with using the a'dam. She did NOT torture Seta in the books. She bullies her into compliance using her regular Nynaeve charm.

She knows that to channel she must be angry, so if she is struggling to channel, she doesn't sit there like an idiot feeling sorry for herself. She MAKES HERSELF ANGRY. She should have been muttering about how vile the a'dam is and how she hates the people who created it and tugging on her braid while blackthorn bush grows around her and blossoms and she heals Elayne's leg like new. And THEN she doesn't let go because she doesn't know if she'll get it back.

Also, while she's trying to channel, she's sorting through her herbs and removing the arrow. She would DEFINITELY remove the fletched end before pulling the arrow through. The absolute incompetence displayed by show!Nynaeve was unacceptable.

(Should I mention that having Elayne heal Rand was another racism against Nynaeve? Probably best to keep that one to myself.)

[caraianellisande]

First of all i'd like to point out that I am not at all bothered by the casting of Aviendha and I do believe complaints abt it are very much rooted in racism.

With that being said, I did assume that the show was getting rid of the whole Aiel LookTM thing and just have them be recognized by their clothes and manner of speech.

But Errol clocked Rand as Aiel and Moiraine mentions that he would stand out in Cairhien so clearly they're keeping it.

But like, he and Avi look nothing alike!

How is he getting recognized so easily as Aiel?

And the thing is, he doesn't need to be visibly aiel for the story to work. All the times he gets clocked as Aiel in the books are much more driving home his identity crisis from finding out he's adopted! They also serve as foreshadowing yes but that's secondary. That's why most of these instances are in Eye of the World, the book where Rand's arc is all about his identity crisis!

The show could have removed this entirely and it would be fine. Instead the narrative is telling us that the Aiel have physical features distinct enough that a man with dementia can recognize one, and that even dressed as a westlander and Aiel would stand out, and yet the two Aiel characters look nothing alike! The only thing they have in common is that they're both redheads, so I guess Elayne should be getting confused for an Aiel lol.

I know that this isn't a big deal but it would have been such an easy fix, I don't get why the show did this.

[agent-of-sam]

I'm gonna be a downer and say that 3 episodes into WoT season 2 and I am not feeling it all. I can't say it's bad, objectively, but I find this show Annoying in a very visceral way.

The ratio of melodrama to plot is just too off for my tastes.

I'm going to give the next episode a shot but if it doesn't take I'll probably tap out. Maybe pop in again later when all the episodes are out.

[checkoutmybookshelf]

Real quick general plea: When we talk about WoT S2, could we--for the love of ALL THAT IS HOLY--stop splashing gifs, screencaps, and clips of Egwene and Renna hanging each other? I am WILDLY uncomfortable with how comfortable some of y'all and some reviewers are with proudly splashing the fetishization of women being tortured and dying horribly across the internet.

The sul'dam and damane are important to the world of WoT, but quite frankly? We can talk about it without tacitly supporting the weird pattern of fetishizing women's pain and deaths that the show is doing. And if we want to talk about THAT, we can do so without images that might trigger people. Particularly in reviewer spaces--I want to hear what you have to say about the show, but I refuse to rewatch those scenes to do it.

At the VERY FUCKING LEAST, slap a trigger or content warning on that shit in reviewer spaces.

[butterflydm]

I was skimming the books for fic-research reasons and just had to be baffled all over again at how the Seanchan invasion gets treated CoT-onward. The Kin were the spine of the Wise Women of Ebou Dar, who are, like THE people who are respected by everyone in the city. They all had to try to flee the area because of the Seanchan and any who didn't successfully flee but were Kin (and thus could channel) would have been instantly enslaved by the Seanchan. And yet we have that fucking weirdness in Mat's (fucking weird overall) first chapter in A Memory of Light where the Ebou Dari people are all "lol, why would a brutal invasion bother us in the slightest; we're too super-casual for an invasion to bother us".

I mean, that's all tied into the logistics problems that plagued all things Seanchan-related in the later books (they have infinite soldiers and infinite food & supplies and generally don't have to abide by the economics & logistics that Rand's side is required to follow) but it just really stood out to me because I was reading about how respected the Wise Women are (even in places like the Rahad) -- but the Seanchan's coming would have completely gutted them as a society and that should have an impact on how the Ebou Dari feel about the Seanchan. And it just ties into my overall feeling that Jordan stopped treating the Seanchan realistically starting in CoT and then Sanderson continued the trend when he took over the writing of the books.

But, yeah, one of the big things that I hope for from the prime show is that the Seanchan get treated with narrative consistency and we don't get an abrupt 180 on how the narrative treats them at the two-thirds point. Because what the Ebou Dari should be feeling (and what they were feeling in Winter's Heart!) is a lot of fear and paranoia and the desire to rebel, because the Seanchan are Always Watching and will Randomly Steal and Enslave People for reasons that the non-Seanchan people are not going to understand!

I am really curious about how much Seanchan Presence we're going to have in s3, because s2 made some bold choices in where it went with the Seanchan storyline and I am intensely curious about what kind of follow-up we'll have in s3. I've said a lot in the past that Tuon needs to be introduced sooner than she was in the books (Jordan waited way too late to introduce her! He should also have introduced her while she was still in Seanchan, imo, so that we actually could have seen her interacting with the rest of the Imperial family so that we would have a baseline of Seanchan Imperial Behavior to potentially contrast her against later -- but Tuon feels like another case where Jordan valued the surprise of the wham! line over giving a lot of detail and background) and I would absolutely be a fan of her being introduced in s3.

[amyrlinegwene]

I do understand some people don’t want to see any criticism of the show, but many of us like to analyze and critique the books and that obviously extends to the show as well, both on its own and as an adaptation. But most of us really enjoy the show as well even if we have criticisms of it. This is not reddit or twitter and the people on tumblr critiquing the decisions that show makes are not doing so in an effort to tear down the show but because that is how we like to interact with media and the text.

And I get that people are wary of complaints/critiques about the show after the racist and misogynistic campaigns against season 1, but that does not mean that all criticism of the show is coming from a place of hatred. And I think it’s natural with an adaptation that people will want to address what changes they didn’t (and did!) like and that’s okay!!

[clearancecreedwatersurvival]

Look the real reason so many book fans are mad about the wheel of time adaptation instead of having a great time with it regardless of changes, is that the production is putting a very strong focus on updating the worldbuilding and characters in specific ways, as well as changing individual events in favor of a more streamlined way to make The Same character beats happen.

Because this is an adaptation to film, and of course they have to change stuff. Come on people. Be realistic. You know how long the series is.

And there are parts of the book series that Do need updating. RJ was trying to be as progressive as he could in a lot of his approach to the series, but what was progressive in the 90s is not as progressive now so of course they are updating it. If you didn’t think this show was gonna have queer people and polyamory then sorry about it. Dear Mr. Jordan was Really Good at writing romantic relationships between women when he thought he was just writing friendships, he did it A Couple times. I would Bet Money on Avilayne becoming canon. This series is being created by a queer showrunner he is absolutely doing a queer reading of these books. Which I am Very Here For.

And he is doing a reading, and changing things. Which again, is Necessary. The book series is Super long and they have 8 seasons to do it in. They’re gonna change individual events to make sure that the main characters go through all the necessary character beats. And you’re just being recalcitrant if you can’t admit that season two Rules in a lot of ways. They are still making sure every important character has all their moments. And each individual episode has focused on some of the most powerful themes of the Entire book series. Including the inherent tragedies inherent to channelers such as: being cut off from the one power in various ways through shielding and stilling, having their own control of the one power taken over by others through weaves and ter’angreal, and living extended lifespans and thus leaving behind their loved ones. They’re doing a Very good job of keeping to the core themes and character beats and also changing stuff around to make the story work on a shorter time frame.

Also they’re working really hard to make sure Every character is as well fleshed out as possible. Meaning that yes, a lot of focus is being spent so far on the other main pov characters and all of the important aes sedai who will matter in the conflicts to come. That’s a good thing. Sorry to the people who only cared about the ta’veren boys or whatever but RJ wrote a ton of interesting and powerful women and they’re all getting their Due in this adaptation that is a feature not a bug.

It’s not like there isn’t stuff to be improved in the original! There is a huge chunk of the wheel of time that a lot of fans refer to as the slog! Where most of the main characters are separated and the plot is barely moving so some characters only show up in like two chapters of a single book, because there are so many individual things happening, before the plot starts moving faster again towards the end of the series. (And then there’s the crimes committed by Mr. Sanderson on the last three books but we’re not going to talk about that right now.

Which personally I would disagree that the slog is where the series is least enjoyable. The section I usually skip when rereading is the first two books, #having a great time right now actually with the show skipping through as much of the minutiae of books I and II as they can. The wheel of time is not a perfect series and Robert Jordan kept trying to finish it in one to three books at first and the first two books suffer as a result.

If you stopped reading in books one or two PLEASE just try to make it to three Trust Me. Or just watch the show and then read the battle of falme in book II and then read book III. You will appreciate books one and two more on a reread after all the stuff he does bring up there has really paid off. And also just have fun watching your faves be more happy than they are in later books ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The show is not Trying to be the books and frankly I’m glad it’s not! This is another turning of the wheel, another version of events, a parallel universe to the randland of the books. And I think they’re doing a pretty brilliant job of telling a version of that story so far this season.

Adaptations will change things. That’s a good thing. Judge it on executing the ideas it is bringing up and staying true to the core of the character arcs and themes of the original. And frankly it’s enhancing a lot of character arcs right now. There are many things that I think the show is already doing better than the books did tbh (Min, Liandrin, Selene, making Perrin spend less time dithering about the Wolf Stuff, speeding up Mat’s healing from the dagger so my best boy gets more time to shine)

Adaptations are transformative works. To lesser and greater degrees they reinterpret a work through a different artistic lens and medium. The changes are not bad because they are changes. Judge it on the execution of the story it’s actually telling instead of a close comparison to the books. And they are keeping as true to the books as they can whether you acknowledge that or not.

If you’re a person who reads fanfiction but you can’t judge a film adaptation for what it is instead of what it’s not then please try Slightly harder.

And if you’re just mad that it’s all queer and polyamorous now and the boys aren’t the only main characters then die mad I guess. I will continue having a pretty great time watching this show chock full of extremely powerful (and sometimes evil) women. I think RJ would have liked it tbh.

[all-about-the-tea-parties]

I know s3 is almost done filming, but now that the story is fixing its pace and the characters feel very forward moving, I hope the pros of s1 come back. S1 was heavy on imagery and director choices - watching new ppl pick up the show reminded me just how moody, cinematic and intentional the shots were in every scene of s1, and I feel the action oriented s2 lost a little bit of that.

I will not condemn a show for choosing storytelling, dialogue, and characters over the visual part of film, (because I am an avid lover and defender of Agents of SHIELD which is not beautiful in cinematography like Daredevil, but it is strong in its interesting world and story) - but I do miss it. I mean, it’s film! We’re meant to be quite literally shown; not told.

I just rewatched the scene we’re introduced to Valda, and comparing that to Dain Bornhald’s introduction, I just wanna smush the good parts of both together. Bornhald had better transition into the story, very easy dialogue and natural integration, Valda was a bit “look! A bad guy!” but Valda’s scene was so stark and haunting and evillll just from him coating a cup in the blood of the woman who burns in its reflection - and Bornhald had a simple stroll to a table.

It does make me wonder if there were more set constraints/budget issues. There’s a lot of closed spaces/narrow hallways used in s2.

[tiredmoonslut]

Although I am mostly a fan of how Moiraine's not-stilling was handled in the show, I will admit it doesn't make a bunch of sense why it took them six months to figure out it was a shield and not a complete severance.

In the books, if I recall correctly, there is a distinct difference between what a shield feels like and what being cut off feels like. When shielded, a channeler can still sense the True Source. They can't touch it, but they can sense it. When you've been cut off, it's as if the Source never existed---which is what I think is so horrifying and traumatizing on a psychosomatic level for people who can channel. It's like a forceful organ removal, a violation of their body and soul.

More importantly, when shielded, an Aes Sedai still cannot violate their Three Oaths. When stilled, they can. Moiraine could have tested the difference immediately just by trying to say something bluntly false. If she can't do it, hooray! Shielded. Furthermore, I don't remember if we ever see it in the books, but I'm 99% sure that if you're stilled, then your Warder bond is automatically broken. They talked in the show about how Moiraine apparently cuts her bond with Lan, but how exactly did she do that if she has no access to the Power?? It doesn't really make sense.

The show confounds this even more with Logain. Logain can apparently still see weaves??? He was cut off. He should have no access whatsoever to the Power---deaf and blind, as it were.

So yeah it's a little slippery and kinda not logical that Mo was walking around clearly still bound to her oaths for six months and yet still believing herself be stilled. Now I know the whole "tied off" thing is apparently meant to be impossible (did they not do this all the time in the books tho? At least our mains did lol) but I mean come on

Book fans am I missing anything? I've only read 1-5 so Idk if I have all the facts but that's how it seemed

[necarion]

In S1 of the Prime!Wheel of Time, there is a set of six "origin" stories, each animated and about 3 minutes long. The topics are:

The Breaking of the World: Lews Therin going mad, the Taint, the Breaking, and the Aes Sedai gentling men to end the breaking.

The Fall of Manetherin: Basically the story from Moiraine, except the narration is mediocre. They could have just used Rosamund Pike's speech.

The Greatest Warder: A super vague and unclear version of the warder Jerome, but without any sort of context about what he did. Mentioned he got his ass kicked by a farmer with a stick. It is sort of the story we get when Mat kicks Galad and Gawyn's ass, except without the entertainment value of Mat, Galad, or Gawyn. It is also almost impossible to see because it's too dark.

Saidin, Saidar, Stone. Actually explains the two halves of the power and differences in how the power feels, plus how the taint works and a meditation exercise. No idea what "stone" means in this context, though.

The White Tower: Explains novice, accepted, Aes Sedai, the different Ajahs, Sitters.

An Ogier's Longing: about Ogier groves, the steddings (and no One Power), etc.

All of these are lore-accurate! In a way generally contradicted by the show, or totally left out of the show. Each of these shows in 3 minutes a really important lore detail that would explain a lot of the story, which means they could pretty easily have been incorporated into an episode in the first two seasons. Instead, we get almost none of this information in the show.

The animations are pretty, except they are a bit too dark, and there is this inexplicable heavy film grain over everything.* Film grain only occurs when it's really dark in normal camera, and even really old films don't have it. There are a ton of things to show that this is "old", such as, say, animating it.

Ultimately, that this had to be included as an animated set is a dramatic failure of the TV show. Doubly so as they don't bother to stick to these details.

___

* I'd screenshot it, but Amazon doesn't want people sharing individual screenshots, as someone could theoretically get every frame of the movie and infringe the copyright!

[iliiuan]

Rand just stands around looking like an idiot for 90% of wot on prime. This is a gross misrepresentation, as in the books he only stands around looking like an idiot 30% of the time.

[caraianellisande]

They've done my boy Rand so dirty 😭

[agent-of-sam]

I love the part where Lan tried to ditch Alanna, Maksim, and Ihvon.

Yeah, dude. I wish you could escape back to the main plot too.

[uri59]

If you haven't been watching the reviews from The Sword and the Pen Reflections about the wot show season 1 you truly are missing 🤭

[butterflydm]

Though I don't have any particular interest in watching the Sanderson WoT s2 finale reaction (the whole idea of only watching the finale without watching the rest of the season feels like the kind of thing that should only happen in a video meant to be humourous and not to be taken seriously), I am somewhat curious about his list of critiques and how many of them can be straight-up chalked up to him not realizing/admitting that adaptations require change, especially when going from a sprawling story to something much more compact. Because I remember feeling that way about several of his S1 critiques that I'd read.

[amyrlinegwene]

I did really enjoy the finale for the most part but I’m sorry why won’t they let Nynaeve heal?! This is getting ridiculous

Like when they had her not be able to heal Elayne, I was like okay it’s because she’s going to be able to heal Rand later but then they have Elayne heal him?? The Elayne who can barely heal a bruise midway through the series???

Like come on!! Nynaeve’s block isn’t that she can’t channel PERIOD! It’s that she can’t channel UNLESS SHES ANGRY!

Why wouldn’t she be angry when she’s being attacked?? When her friends are being attacked??

The show has played subtext as text by having Nynaeve be afraid all the time instead of being angry because she’s afraid and they refuse to let her heal, something that she could do without even knowing it as a wisdom. They didn’t let us see her heal once. It’s just frustrating. I feel like they’ve really shied away from her anger (it’s okay for women to be angry btw 🙄) and then also took away her healing abilities that she is able to break out every once in a while while she’s angry.

Rand being injured and Nynaeve healing him would have been the perfect. It would have been a great start to Nynaeve learning to harness her anger to channel. It would have also been a great follow up to their own lore and Ryma’s teaching to approach channeling like she would when she was doing her duty as wisdom.

Like what’s the point???