#you know the whole delian league and shit...

[maxellminidisc]

Greek and Roman power structures are why I hesitate to call most things people call "queer" about their societies queer on the internet or like when people ask the stupid question of "Do you think theyd be into bdsm?" I'm like do you WANT that kind of inherently bad for consent society to be into bdsm???

Putting my thoughts under a read more cause its lengthy and something that I've wanted to talk about for a while now!

Like I'm sure queer relationships with like 1) no weird power dynamic and 2) pedastry existed in these societies, we have always existed, but it would not have been easy. They most likely still would have had to have played the part of a man who followed the rule and roles of what a MAN had to to be considered a man on the surface of society, because if they didnt, they would've been ridiculed and seen as lesser men. A big example of one such rule in the sexual realm is men could not and should not be penetrated; penetration was the domain of those lesser than men, if you were a man who liked being penetrated you were a fucking joke. They would've even been called perverse for not having a weird power dynamic in their romantic or sexual relationship with other men.

Slaves, young boys, slave boys, etc were basically equivalent to women in classical Greek society: they are those below the status of men and thus suitable objects of ones sexual desires. Like think about how fucked up that is??? And on top of that courting was also fundamentally tied to this perception of these groups of lesser status and required guidelines, so seeming genuinely invested and lovesick in ones relationship to these lesser beings was also seen as ridiculous.

Like it was all seen as taboo for the WRONG reasons. They'd would be so confused, ridicule you, or frankly be pissed if you pointed out how awful the inherit vacuum for consent these dynamics are and rife for abuse of power these relationships would have been to begin with because you're basically questioning the standards of classical Greek masculinity.

And I also wish we discussed more how the classical periods in Greece and Rome played a part in contemporary homophobia. Like it's not all 100% the result of Christianity moving into these societies, but more so a chain with Christianity being the biggest domino to fall at the end. Rome in particular was influenced by these sexual and social ideas of class and sexual dynamics in Greece, so the undercurrent of homophobia inherit to those ideas made Christianity all the more appealing for aligning with those already establied ideas.

In the end sex was basically used the same way everything else was to men in classical Greek and Roman society: its about power, gaining power, flexing that power and through this, raising ones status in these societies. It left very little room for partnerships of equals and the little room that was there was probably incredibly suffocating for anyone who didn't want to abide by these rules and standards of masculinity or others of which they were expected to.