terranuspk

[terranuspk]

@funkymbtifiction this is gold ----> “It depends, but overall I’d say yes – there’s certain functions that appeal to you, either if you lack them or they are low in your stack. I’ve noticed ‘function envy’ among various people – ISXJs who are really impressed with high Ne abstraction / creativity / interpretation; ENXPs who are amazed with high Si detail / sensory recall; Fe’s who envy the stoicism and internalization of Fi, Fi’s who envy how easily Fe’s articulate their feelings and bond with others; INXJs who are fascinated with and drawn to ESXPs because of their high Se / the low Se’s desire to merge with the environment and be confident on a sensory level; the ESXP who loves the INXJ’s focus and interpretation and symbolism… etc, etc. The less you have of something, often the more impressed you are with others who can do that naturally. “

I just saw a debate tonight and it made me wonder, do functions that aren’t in our stack create a sort a fascination? For example, I don’t have Ti and yet I was so into what those people were saying, analyzing a popular show on its political and social aspect, it was so intelligent and well done I was amazed by it! Same for one of my best friend, she’s a Fe-dom and I admire that part of her, it’s my favorite side of her personality being compassionate and putting others’ need before her own… So is there an attraction between the functions we have and those we don’t?

PS: Sorry of the question has already been asked, I couldn’t find it :/ Also sorry for the post, it was too long for a simple question…

PSS: Keep on the good work, it’s always a pleasure to read :)

It depends, but overall I’d say yes – there’s certain functions that appeal to you, either if you lack them or they are low in your stack. I’ve noticed ‘function envy’ among various people – ISXJs who are really impressed with high Ne abstraction / creativity / interpretation; ENXPs who are amazed with high Si detail / sensory recall; Fe’s who envy the stoicism and internalization of Fi, Fi’s who envy how easily Fe’s articulate their feelings and bond with others; INXJs who are fascinated with and drawn to ESXPs because of their high Se / the low Se’s desire to merge with the environment and be confident on a sensory level; the ESXP who loves the INXJ’s focus and interpretation and symbolism… etc, etc. The less you have of something, often the more impressed you are with others who can do that naturally.

The biggest conflict seems to come between types who have nothing in common – for example, an ESTP and an ENFP, or an ENFJ and an ISTJ. Thinkers can ‘get’ each other, feelers can ‘get’ each other, similar function axis can ‘get’ each other, but without anything in common (thinker / feeler / sensor / intuitive) there can be friction due to each type’s blind spots. (For example: ESTP thinks of ENFP that they’re a naive idealist, ENFP thinks ESTP has no moral fiber and is too impulsive.)

That being said, my parents have zero functions in common and get along great most of the time (ENFJ and ISTJ, lol) so… nothing is set in stone. ;)

- ENFP Mod

[terranuspk]

UHm nterersting to a point. The cases help at least. i am aware my use of Ti is not my strongest asset. So is congintion. hahaha 

Why abstract thinking is Thinking or Feeling, NOT Intuition

A common misconception among people who are still learning about themselves and the functions is that people think that ability to think abstractly or deal with abstract information is the same as being an intuitive type. While this may be true in the general sense of the word, I find that this misunderstanding of the act of Intuition often leads to various theoretical problems; specifically, I find that people who are leading with Thinking or Feeling mistake their ability to rationalize the world abstractly through their dominant rational function as the same as the act of Intuition. In other words, they forget that Intuition is a form of perception and is irrational in nature.  This misunderstanding has several causes, but the most likely culprits are:

Poor online descriptions of all the functions

Forgetting that Jungian Intuition is not the same as the how the word intuition is understood in common speech

While (1) is difficult to solve, at least (2) can be amended by comparing how Jungian Intuition is separate from the general understanding of intuition which often makes it associated with high intelligence and ability to reason abstractly. To do this, it is important to first understand why Intuition is an irrational function and how it is different from the other two rational functions Thinking and Feeling. As Carl Jung explains:

Irrational As I make use of this term it does not denote something contrary to reason, but something outside the province of reason, whose essence, therefore, is not established by reason. Elementary facts belong to this category, e.g. that the earth has a moon, that chlorine is an element, that the greatest density of water is found to be 4.0 centigrade. An accident is also irrational in spite of the fact that it may sustain a subsequent rational explanation. The irrational is a factor of existence which may certainly be pushed back indefinitely by an increasingly elaborate and complicated rational explanation, but in so doing the explanation finally becomes so extravagant and overdone that it passes comprehension, thus reaching the limits of rational thought long before it can ever span the whole world with the laws of reason. A completely rational explanation of an actually existing object (not one that is merely postulated) is a Utopian ideal. Only an object that has been postulated can also be completely explained on rational grounds, since it has never contained anything beyond what was postulated by rational thinking. Empirical science also postulates rationally limited objects, since its deliberate exclusion of the accidental allows no consideration of the real object as a whole; hence empirical observation is always limited to that same portion of the object which has been selected for rational consideration. Thus, both thinking and feeling as directed functions are rational. When these functions are concerned not with a rationally determined choice of objects, or with the qualities and relations of objects, but with the incidental perceptions which the real object never lacks, they at once lose the quality of direction, and therewith something of their rational character, because they accept the accidental. They begin to be irrational. That thinking or feeling which is directed according to accidental perceptions, and is therefore irrational, is either intuitive orsensational. Both intuition and sensation are psychological functions which achieve their functional fulfillment in theabsolute perception of occurrences in general. Hence, in accordance with their nature, their attitude must be set towards every possibility and what is absolutely accidental; they must, therefore, entirely forgo rational direction.Accordingly I term them irrational functions, in contrast to thinking and feeling, which reach perfection only when in complete accord with the laws of reason. Although the irrational, as such, can never become the object of a science, nevertheless for a practical psychology it is of the greatest importance that the irrational factor should be correctly appraised. For practical psychology stirs up many problems that altogether elude the rational solution and can be settled only irrationally, i.e. they can be solved only in a way that has no correspondence with the laws of reason. An exclusive presumption or expectation that for every conflict there must also exist a possibility of rational adjustment may well prove an insurmountable obstacle to a real solution of an irrational character. (v. Rational).

The part in bold is of particular importance when understanding the nature of irrationality because as Jung explains, irrational perception is the conscious attitude of foregoing “a rationally determined choice of objects, or with the qualities and relations of objects”. It must be “something outside the province of reason, whose essence, therefore, is not established by reason”. What does this mean when determining whether someone is a rational or irrational type? It means that when the ego is primarily oriented towards the conscious act of perception they are prone to describe the world not through the act of rationalization that is, what the world is, but how it actually appears as in terms of Sensation or Intuition. To exemplify, I’ll quote some various pieces of English literature:

Intuition

Ghost images filled his head, unbidden. In his imagination he was leaving another prison, long ago. He had been imprisoned in a lightless garret room for far too long: his beard was wild and his hair was a tangle. The guards had walked him down a gray stone stairway and out into a plaza filled with brightly-colored things, with people and with objects. It was a market day and he was dazzled by the noise and the color, squinting at the sunlight that filled the square, smelling the salt-wet air and all the good things of the market, and on his left the sun glittered from the water… - Neil Gaiman, American Gods Marla’s cold and sweating while I tell her how I in college had a wart once. On my penis, only I say, dick. I went to the medical school to have it removed. The wart. Afterwards, I told my father. This was years after, and my dad laughed and told me I was a fool because warts like that are nature’s French tickler. Women love them and God was doing me a favor.  - Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club Sensation

Rita rustled in, fastening a hoop earring. She was rather provocative, considering. She wore a practically weightless light blue silk dress that fell to the mid-thigh, and of course her very best New Balance cross-training shoes. I’d never before met, or even heard of, a woman who actually wore comfortable shoes on a date. The enchanting creature.  - Jeff Lindsay, Darkly Dreaming Dexter

Both sensation and intuition Thank God, I thought, as just then Dad turned up at the party. He’d come straight from work, and he wore his best bespoke Burton suit, a yellow waistcoat with a watch on a chain (a present from Mum), and a striped tie in pink and blue with a knot as fat as a bar of soap. He looked like a budgerigar. Dad’s hair was shining too, as he liked to put olive oil on it, convinced that this lubrication of the scalp banished baldness. Unfortunately, if you got too close to him you were tempted to look around for the source of the odour - perhaps there was an overdressed salad in the vicinity? But lately he’d been concealing this whiff with his favorite aftershave, Rampage. Dad was plumper than he’d ever been. He was turning into a porky little Buddha, but compared to everyone else it in the room he was life itself, vibrant, irreverent and laughing. Besides him, Anwar had become an old man. Dad was also being magnanimous today; he reminded me of a smooth politician visiting a shabby constituency, smiling, kissing babies, shaking hands with relish - and departing as soon as he decently could.  - Hanif Kureishi, The Buddha of Suburbia

Thinking The contest began with boys of fifteen or sixteen. There were only three such boys in each team. They were not the real wrestlers; they merely set the scene. Within a short time the first two bouts were over. But the third created a big sensation even among the elders who did not usually show their excitement so openly. It was as quick as the other two, perhaps even quicker. But very few people had seen that kind of wrestling before. As soon as the two boys closed in, one of them did something which no one could describe because it had been as quick as a flash. And the other boy was flat on his back.  -Chinua Achebe, Things Fall Apart To the public eye, the spouses of well-known writers are all but invisible, and no one knew it better than Lisey Landon. Her husband had won the Pulitzer and the National Book Award, but Lisey had given only one interview in her life. This was for the well-known women’s magazine that publishes the column “Yes, I’m married to Him!” She spent roughly half of its five-hundred-word length explaining that her nickname rhymed with “CeeCee”. Most of the other half had to do with her recipe for slow-cooked roast beef. Lisey’s sister Amanda said that the picture accompanying the interview made Lisey look fat.  - Stephen King, Lisey’s Story

Feeling Hannah exasperated the woman in the town - the “good” women who said, “One thing I can’t stand is a nasty woman”; the whores, who were hard to put to find trade among black men anyway and who resented Hannah’s generosity; the middling women, who had both husbands and affairs, because Hannah seemed too unlike them, having no passion attached to her relationships and being wholly incapable of jealousy.  -Toni Morrison, Sula

The below is a quote of Carl Jung’s description of Intuition and the two intuitive types when Intuition is oriented towards or away from the object (extroversion and introversion respectively):  

Intuition

Intuition as the function of unconscious perception is wholly directed upon outer objects in the extraverted attitude. Because, in the main, intuition is an unconscious process, the conscious apprehension of its nature is a very difficult matter. In consciousness, the intuitive function is represented by a certain attitude of expectation, a perceptive and penetrating vision, wherein only the subsequent result can prove, in every case, how much was ‘perceived-into’, and how much actually lay in the object.

Just as sensation, when given the priority, is not a mere reactive process of no further importance for the object, but is almost an action which seizes and shapes the object, so it is with intuition, which is by no means a mere perception, or awareness, but an active, creative process that builds into the object just as much as it takes out. But, because this process extracts the perception unconsciously, it also produces an unconscious effect in the object. The primary function of intuition is to transmit mere images, or perceptions of relations and conditions, which could be gained by the other functions, either not at all, or only by very roundabout ways. Such images have the value of definite discernments, and have a decisive bearing upon action, whenever intuition is given the chief weight; in which case, psychic adaptation is based almost exclusively upon intuition. Thinking, feeling, and sensation are relatively repressed; of these, sensation is the one principally affected, because, as the conscious function of sense, it offers the greatest obstacle to intuition. Sensation disturbs intuition’s clear, unbiassed, na[umlaut]ive awareness with its importunate sensuous stimuli; for these direct the glance upon the physical superficies, hence upon the very things round and beyond which intuition tries to peer. But since intuition, in the extraverted attitude, has a prevailingly objective orientation, it actually comes very near to sensation; indeed, the expectant attitude towards outer objects may, with almost equal probability, avail itself of sensation. Hence, for intuition really to become paramount, sensation must to a large extent be suppressed. I am now speaking of sensation as the simple and direct sense-reaction, an almost definite physiological and psychic datum. This must be expressly established beforehand, because, if I ask the intuitive how he is orientated, he will speak of things which are quite indistinguishable from sense-perceptions. Frequently he will even make use of the term ‘sensation’. He actually has sensations, but he is not guided by them per se, merely using them as directing-points for his distant vision. They are selected by unconscious expectation. Not the strongest sensation, in the physiological sense, obtains the crucial value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value happens to become considerably enhanced by reason of the intuitive’s unconscious attitude. In this way it may eventually attain the leading position, appearing to the intuitive’s consciousness indistinguishable from a pure sensation. But actually it is not so. Just as extraverted sensation strives to reach the highest pitch of actuality, because only thus can the appearance of a complete life be created, so intuition tries to encompass the greatest possibilities, since only through the awareness of possibilities is intuition fullysatisfied. Intuition seeks to discover possibilities in the objective situation; hence as a mere tributary function (viz. when not in the position of priority) it is also the instrument which, in the presence of a hopelessly blocked situation, works automatically towards the issue, which no other function could discover. Where intuition has the priority, every ordinary situation in life seems like a closed room, which intuition has to open. It is constantly seeking outlets and fresh possibilities in external life. In a very short time every actual situation becomes a prison to the intuitive; it burdens him like a chain, prompting a compelling need for solution. At times objects would seem to have an almost exaggerated value, should they chance to represent the idea of a severance or release that might lead to the discovery of a new possibility. Yet no sooner have they performed their office, serving intuition as a ladder or a bridge, than they appear to have no further value, and are discarded as mere burdensome appendages. A fact is acknowledged only in so far as it opens up fresh possibilities of advancing beyond it and of releasing the individual from its operation. Emerging possibilities are compelling motives from which intuition cannot escape and to which all else must be sacrificed. The Extraverted Intuitive Type Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. However reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour’s convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type. Apparently this type is more prone to favour women than men; in which case, however, the intuitive activity reveals itself not so much in the professional as in the social sphere. Such women understand the art of utilizing every social opportunity; they establish right social connections; they seek out lovers with possibilities only to abandon everything again for the sake of a new possibility. It is at once clear, both from the standpoint of political economy and on grounds of general culture, that such a type is uncommonly important. If well-intentioned, with an orientation to life not purely egoistical, he may render exceptional service as the promoter, if not the initiator of every kind of promising enterprise. He is the natural advocate of every minority that holds the seed of future promise. Because of his capacity, when orientated more towards men than things, to make an intuitive diagnosis of their abilities and range of usefulness, he can also 'make’ men. His capacity to inspire his fellow-men with courage, or to kindle enthusiasm for something new, is unrivalled, although he may have forsworn it by the morrow. The more powerful and vivid his intuition, the more is his subject fused and blended with the divined possibility. He animates it; he presents it in plastic shape and with convincing fire; he almost embodies it. It is not a mere histrionic display, but a fate. This attitude has immense dangers—all too easily the intuitive may squander his life. He spends himself animating men and things, spreading around him an abundance of life—a life, however, which others live, not he. Were he able to rest with the actual thing, he would gather the fruit of his labours; yet all too soon must he be running after some fresh possibility, quitting his newly planted field, while others reap the harvest. In the end he goes empty away. But when the intuitive lets things reach such a pitch, he also has the unconscious against him. The unconscious of the intuitive has a certain similarity with that of the sensation-type. Thinking and feeling, being relatively repressed, produce infantile and archaic thoughts and feelings in the unconscious, which may be compared with those of the countertype. They likewise come to the surface in the form of intensive projections, and are just as absurd as those of the sensation-type, only to my mind they lack the other’s mystical character; they are chiefly concerned with quasi-actual things, in the nature of sexual, financial, and other hazards, as, for instance, suspicions of approaching illness. This difference appears to be due to a repression of the sensations of actual things. These latter usually command attention in the shape of a sudden entanglement with a most unsuitable woman, or, in the case of a woman, with a thoroughly unsuitable man; and this is simply the result of their unwitting contact with the sphere of archaic sensations. But its consequence is an unconsciously compelling tie to an object of incontestable futility. Such an event is already a compulsive symptom, which is also thoroughly characteristic of this type. In common with the sensation-type, he claims a similar freedom and exemption from all restraint, since he suffers no submission of his decisions to rational judgment, relying entirely upon the perception of chance, possibilities. He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior—he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type—only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation. Intuition Intuition, in the introverted attitude, is directed upon the inner object, a term we might justly apply to the elements of the unconscious. For the relation of inner objects to consciousness is entirely analogous to that of outer objects, although theirs is a psychological and not a physical reality. Inner objects appear to the intuitive perception as subjective images of things, which, though not met with in external experience, really determine the contents of the unconscious, i.e. the collective unconscious, in the last resort. Naturally, in their per se character, these contents are, not accessible to experience, a quality which they have in common with the outer object. For just as outer objects correspond only relatively with our perceptions of them, so the phenomenal forms of the inner object are also relative; products of their (to us) inaccessible essence and of the peculiar nature of the intuitive function. Like sensation, intuition also has its subjective factor, which is suppressed to the farthest limit in the extraverted intuition, but which becomes the decisive factor in the intuition of the introvert. Although this intuition may receive its impetus from outer objects, it is never arrested by the external possibilities, but stays with that factor which the outer object releases within. Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation. Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic attack of giddiness. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar character of this innervationdisturbance, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its transient course, the nature of its origin and disappearance in their every detail, without raising the smallest inquiry concerning the nature of the thing which produced the disturbance, or advancing anything as to its content. Intuition, on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case. It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow. This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades. In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects. For intuition, therefore, the unconscious images attain to the dignity of things or objects. But, because intuition excludes the cooperation of sensation, it obtains either no knowledge at all or at the best a very inadequate awareness of the innervation-disturbances or of the physical effects produced by the unconscious images. Accordingly, the images appear as though detached from the subject, as though existing in themselves without relation to the person. Consequently, in the above-mentioned example, the introverted intuitive, when affected by the giddiness, would not imagine that the perceived image might also in some way refer to himself. Naturally, to one who is rationally orientated, such a thing seems almost unthinkable, but it is none the less a fact, and I have often experienced it in my dealings with this type. The remarkable indifference of the extraverted intuitive in respect to outer objects is shared by the introverted intuitive in relation to the inner objects. Just as the extraverted intuitive is continually scenting out new possibilities, which he pursues with an equal unconcern both for his own welfare and for that of others, pressing on quite heedless of human considerations, tearing down what has only just been established in his everlasting search for change, so the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the unconscious, without establishing any connection between the phenomenon and himself. Just as the world can never become a moral problem for the man who merely senses it, so the world of images is never a moral problem to the intuitive. To the one just as much as to the other, it is an ae[]sthenic problem, a question of perception, a 'sensation’. In this way, the consciousness of his own bodily existence fades from the introverted intuitive’s view, as does its effect upon others. The extraverted standpoint would say of him: 'Reality has no existence for him; he gives himself up to fruitless phantasies’. A perception of the unconscious images, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But, since these images represent possible ways of viewing life, which in given circumstances have the power to provide a new energic potential, this function, which to the outer world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people. Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel. Introverted intuition apprehends the images which arise from the a priori, i.e. the inherited foundations of the unconscious mind. These archetypes, whose innermost nature is inaccessible to experience, represent the precipitate of psychic functioning of the whole ancestral line, i.e. the heaped-up, or pooled, experiences of organic existence in general, a million times repeated, and condensed into types. Hence, in these archetypes all experiences are represented which since primeval time have happened on this planet. Their archetypal distinctness is the more marked, the more frequently and intensely they have been experienced. The archetype would be—to borrow from Kant—the noumenon of the image which intuition perceives and, in perceiving, creates. Since the unconscious is not just something that lies there, like a psychic caput mortuum, but is something that coexists and experiences inner transformations which are inherently related to general events, introverted intuition, through its perception of inner processes, gives certain data which may possess supreme importance for the comprehension of general occurrences: it can even foresee new possibilities in more or less clear outline, as well as the event which later actually transpires. Its prophetic prevision is to be explained from its relation to the archetypes which represent the law-determined course of all experienceable things. The Introverted Intuitive Type The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and—in the case of a productive artist—the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle. If an artist, he reveals extraordinary, remote things in his art, which in iridescent profusion embrace both the significant and the banal, the lovely and the grotesque, the whimsical and the sublime. If not an artist, he is frequently an unappreciated genius, a great man 'gone wrong’, a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for 'psychological’ novels. Although it is not altogether in the line of the introverted intuitive type to make of perception a moral problem, since a certain reinforcement of the rational functions is required for this, yet even a relatively slight differentiation of judgment would suffice to transfer intuitive perception from the purely æsthetic into the moral sphere. A variety of this type is thus produced which differs essentially from its æsthetic form, although none the less characteristic of the introverted intuitive. The moral problem comes into being when the intuitive tries to relate himself to his vision, when he is no longer satisfied with mere perception and its æsthetic shaping and estimation, but confronts the question: What does this mean for me and for the world? What emerges from this vision in the way of a duty or task, either for me or for the world? The pure intuitive who represses judgment or possesses it only under the spell of perception never meets this question fundamentally, since his only problem is the How of perception. He, therefore, finds the moral problem unintelligible, even absurd, and as far as possible forbids his thoughts to dwell upon the disconcerting vision. It is different with the morally orientated intuitive. He concerns himself with the meaning of his vision; he troubles less about its further æsthetic possibilities than about the possible moral effects which emerge from its intrinsic significance. His judgment allows him to discern, though often only darkly, that he, as a man and as a totality, is in some way interrelated with his vision, that it is something which cannot just be perceived but which also would fain become the life of the subject. Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken—it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the 'voice of one crying in the wilderness’. The introverted intuitive’s chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object. His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality may, therefore, best be described as an extraverted sensation-type of a rather low and primitive order. Impulsiveness and unrestraint are the characters of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence upon the sense impression. This latter quality is a compensation to the thin upper air of the conscious attitude, giving it a certain weight, so that complete 'sublimation’ is prevented. But if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude, a complete subordination to the inner perception should develop, the unconscious becomes an opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence upon the object is in frank conflict with the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis, exhibiting symptoms that are partly hypochondriacal manifestations, partly hypersensibility of the sense organs and partly compulsive ties to definite persons or other objects.

The difference becomes stark when one compares to how “intuition” is described by any dictionary: in·tu·i·tion(ĭn′to̅o̅-ĭsh′ən, -tyo̅o̅-) n. 1.a. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition. See Synonyms atreason. b. Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight. 2. A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression. intuition (ˌɪntjʊˈɪʃən) n 1. knowledge or belief obtained neither by reason nor by perception 2. instinctive knowledge or belief 3. a hunch or unjustified belief 4. (Philosophy) philosophy immediate knowledge of a proposition or object such as Kant’s account of our knowledge of sensible objects 5. the supposed faculty or process by which we obtain any of these in•tu•i•tion (ˌɪn tuˈɪʃ ən, -tyu-) n. 1. direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension. 2. a fact, truth, etc., perceived in this way. 3. a keen and quick insight. 4. the quality or ability of having such direct perception or quick insight. While there is some overlap here, such as 1.a. 2 (under the first definition), or 1 (under the third definition), it is quite obvious that “intuition” as is defined here does not relate to neither truly rational nor irrational thought. The conscious act of Jungian Intuition goes beyond gut feelings, vibes, bad or good feels, eureka-esque insights, big picture thinking, metaphors (as Jung himself notes, Intuition often appears very close to Sensation), reading hidden intent and meanings or piecing the dots together. While Intuition can be any of these things, when Intuition appears in the intuitive type, it should appear appear as exactly that - the conscious act of perceiving intuitive content. It should be a description of whence it came and whither it goes where a certain image, concrete or abstract, is explored in full detail as is the case with both kinds of irrational thought as observed in the irrational type. It should not take the form of something which can be defined (this is what it is), but it should be beyond that which appears rational or rationalized.  Therefore, irrationality is:

This horse appears to walk with a limp leg.

Compared to rationality:

Horses who walk with limp legs need to have a medical examination.

Intuition is therefore not the same as being able to think logically, be abstract, comprehend the picture and so on and so forth. It cannot be. In fact, I might opine that actual genuine Jungian intuitive types, that is, individuals who lead with intuition as their dominant function, are extremely rare. Intuition, regardless of whether we speak of Ne or Ni, needs to orient itself towards describing something removed from the physical but still do that with a physical quality in mind (inferior sensation).  We see Ne in the passages provided by Neil Gaiman and Hanif Kureishi as both take something of physical nature and choose to relate that to other similar but yet very far removed events. Similarly, we see Ni, especially towards the end of the passage written by Chuck Palahniuk, as the entire paragraph serves to explain an underlying symbolic irony that warts can play when growing on a penis. The comparison becomes stark when reading the passage by Jeff Lindsay and how he literally describes things as they are. Rita is wearing a silk dress almost as if we could see Rita as a real life person in front of us and she is indeed wearing a silk dress.  Now, ironically, there is a certain abstract layer to the passages provided by King, Achebe and Morrison. The reason for this is because they are not describing things irrationally but rationally. They are trying to reach that Utopian ideal that Jung described in his quote about irrationality. So, abstraction then, is therefore more likely to actually be an expression of Thinking or Feeling than it is Intuition or Sensation. For clarification also, intelligence has of course nothing to do with any cognitive function, as any type can be of any level of intelligence.

[terranuspk]

Very intersting. Thanks @animeinmbti

i could relate with both Primary and inferior position cases. although the inferior portion only works in a new work place. ---

Extroverted Feeling (Fe) in all positions:

Dominant Position (ENFJ and ESFJ): Very in-tune with the emotional flow of the surroundings. Fe-doms can easily pick up on the moods of others and respond to this directly. Seeks activities where everyone is engaged in what they are doing. They naturally steer the emotional flow of others which varies in different situations - for example, if people were too carefree during a serious situation, they would try to get them to be focused and concentrated, or alternativly will attempt to cheer someone up with jokes if they seem sad or gloomy. All FJs can make favorable first impressions and change negative relations between people into the positive. They can hold strong ethical principles, but the value of it is based on the feelings of others rather than the orientation towards their own personal relation (Fi). (e.g Margeary Tyrell)

Auxiliary Position (ISFJ and INFJ): They are very sensitive to the emotional atmosphere that surrounds them, but this can include their own associations with the state of the physical environment they are in, due to their dominant introverted perception function (Ni / Si) and it’s focus on the inner state. Therefore they will feel more inclined to maintain a positive emotional space (e.g. Wilson from House, Sansa from Game of Thrones).

Tertiary Position (ESTP and ENTP): Generally they are unable to produce a fun and easy going atmosphere within a group or collective without someone else helping them take the initiative, although they have the ability to be considerate of others. They want to establish a desired feeling atmosphere through feeling expression but can’t always do this as successfully as an FJ would. (e.g. Hank from Breaking Bad, Howard from Big Bang Theory).  

Inferior Position (ISTP and INTP): They become engrossed in their work and logic which causes them to neglect emotional expression. Feels inferiority when spontaneously expressing themselves in a public situation, which results in negative emotions and stress to build up. Therefore their behavior changes radically when they are in the company of people they are comfortable with, whereas with strangers they may display a hard exterior as a result of a weakness of extroverted feeling. They find difficulty with monitoring their expression to achieve the desired reaction from others, but admire those who can and may show willingness to improve in this area (e.g. Luna Lovegood from Harry Potter, Sheldon and Leonard from Big Bang Theory). 

[terranuspk]

hmmm interesting

Gundam Seed Destiny: Shinn Asuka [ISFJ]

Post submitted by @thedarkmonarch

Introverted Sensing (Si): Shinn is defined by the tragedy in his past. This motivates him to fight in the Second Bloody Valentine War. He is haunted by all of the people that he could not save, be it his family or Stella. He seems to flash back to it as a form of motivation for future confrontations. 

Extroverted Feeling (Fe): As someone with very obvious PTSD, Shinn’s emotions are extremely volatile. He ranges from extreme anger to extreme happiness to clinical depression. There is very little middle ground with him. 

Introverted Thinking (Ti): In spite of his lack of social skills, Shinn can is an extremely intelligent young man. This comes to the front on the few times that Shinn can keep his head clear and think creatively in combat. He comes up with numerous strategies that allow him to crush any opponent in battle.

Extroverted Intuition (Ne): Shinn’s expression of Ne is very limited. Apart from having the foresight to ask Rey to help him devise a strategy to beat Kira in combat, Shinn is not likely to consider multiple means of approaching a situation. He is more likely to just bulldoze through it.

[terranuspk]

hmmmm interesting

Code Geass: Kallen Stadtfeld [ESFP]

Extroverted Sensing (Dominant Position): Kallen is aware of injustice that happen in the present, and seeks to join Zero to make an impact to change Britannia and aim for a specific goal. She is often taking direct contact towards the opposing side. She changes her public persona to adapt to the environment. During combat Kallen often displays an competitive edge and challenges the opponent. 

Introverted Feeling (Auxiliary Position): She acts based on her own subjective values. During combat she is quick to recognize who her foes are based on which side they are on. When she discovers Zero’s true identity she begins to doubt his loyalty and quickly becomes judgmental towards Lelouch and whether or not to support his cause. She guards her emotions and seeks to know Lelouch on a more personal level.

Extroverted Thinking (Tertiary Position): To fulfill her ethical ideals she relies on others to achieve an objective, and thus joins Zero to accomplish this. During combat she needs tactical directions although she has no difficulty with confrontation.

Introverted Intuition (Inferior Position): Kallen doesn’t have future focus, and looks towards Zero’s influence when deciding on the next move of strategy and striving towards an idealistic future. 

[terranuspk]

i know this is connected to the 2nd soconics post. but the Si and Se is making me more confused.

Personality Types: Socionics Information Elements (Part 1)

Introduction: Post information was extracted from the16types. Socionics is a personality system similar to the MBTI and the cognitive functions, which shares the same purpose; to showcase Carl Jung’s psychological functions theory. Therefore Socionics is still relevant for revising the Jungian cognitive functions of MBTI. The Socionics term for the functions is “information elements” (It is less complicated than it may seem!). As usual, I will begin with the perception functions. This post will become very long, therefore I will separate the information into two posts;

Extroverted Intuition: Ne is generally associated with the ability to see various potentialities and possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize visible potential in others, be aware of different perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate associations and draw parallels, and be led by one’s intellectual curiosity and stimulate this curiosity in others. Types that value Ne (a function which appears in the four function stack of each type) invest most of their time into discussing various points of view, broad spectrum attitudes, trends, and phenomena, further potential and options some of which may not have happened in actuality, thereby opening up new doors and adding in new tangents to a conversation. They perceive and voice multiple variations and alternative view points, try to mediate between them, and enjoy a lively discussion that would help them settle their uncertainties and provide some grounding. Typical Ne humour juxtaposes and blends seemingly unrelated aspects with elements of unconventionality and even absurdity. 

Introverted Intuition:  As a base function (known as “dominant” or “ego” with cognitive functions), Ni generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs. This can lead to a highly developed imagination and very unique mental world, but it can also result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity. Because the individual gets his or her primary information about the world through mindful simulation of events, a person with leading Ni may be able to thrive in situations where data are scarce, or where he or she lacks the usual prerequisite experience. However, this may also become a disadvantage if the person becomes overly reliant on his mental simulations while disregarding attaining actual experience in areas that interest him, turning down opportunities without trying them out which leads to boredom. The ability to transcend the axis of time and understand the cause and effect relationships that occur is also a feature, sometimes resulting in the ability to accurately predict general future trends and outcomes of certain events.

Sensing

Extroverted Sensation:  It is also called Se, F, volitional sensing, or black sensing. Se includes the ability to attain high level of awareness of the physical aspects of one’s reality, to know how much physical force or power is latent or required, to be able to accurately estimate properties of material sort. Types that strongly value Se are much more comfortable taking concrete actions to change their physical surroundings. This may at times be perceived as disruptive and abrasive, particularly by Ne-types who feel that abrupt changes in their physical surrounding ruins their balance. In Se-quadras, interaction takes a more blunt and direct forms, resulting in a much strongly impacting physical atmosphere than Si-valuing types prefer. Se-types enjoy discussing possibilities but only if there is concrete gain from it, or it holds the potential to impact the “the real world”. Unlike Si, which is about one’s subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push concrete situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to subjectively assess the situation one is in.

Introverted Sensation: It is also referred to as Si, S, experiential sensing, or white sensing. Si is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail. Si focuses on tangible, direct (external) connections (introverted) between processes (dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one’s environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure. In contrast to extroverted sensing (Se), Si is related to following one’s own internal perceptions when it comes to making physical estimations, instead of being guided by externally-driven image of what something is like. Si ego types are perceptive of individual sensory experiences and will try to adjust to them, given that it does not extremely affect their own comfort, thus minimizing potential direct sensory impact on others. In contrast to introverted intuition (Ni), Si is about direct interaction and unity (or discord) with one’s surroundings, rather than abstract process and causal links. Si types prefer to avoid causing too much upheaval and commotion and intruding on other people’s space and boundaries, and will protect their personal well-being and comfort as well. They prefer to keep even flow of experiences and sensory congruity.

[terranuspk]

Thanks to the contrasts, it helped a lot. I could relate more tothe Fe function

Personality Theory: Socionics Information Elements (Part 2)

See [Part 1] for an introduction for this post.

Extroverted Feeling: Fe is generally associated with the ability to recognize and convey (i.e. make others experience) passions, moods, and emotional states, generate excitement, liveliness, and feelings, get emotionally involved in activities and emotionally involve others, recognize and describe emotional interaction between people and groups, and build a sense of community and emotional unity. Types that value Fe like creating a visible atmosphere of camaraderie with other people. They enjoy a loose atmosphere where anything goes, where people don’t have to watch too carefully what they say for fear of offending others. This means these types try not to be too thin-skinned, taking jokes with a grain of salt. However, they are very conscious of the fact that the way something is said is very important to how it will be received, so they tend to add emphasis, embellishments, and exaggerations here and there to keep people engaged. The best way to say something is highly dependent on the situation and the implied purpose of the exchange, so of course levity is not appropriate in some situations. Even after explosive arguments, these types find it hard to hold grudges, and can tolerate people they in principle don’t like, as long as the situation is primarily social and doesn’t require too close contact. They prefer misgivings to be out in the open; they believe that the silent treatment is one of the worst things you can do to a person, and only aggravates the underlying problem.

Introverted Feeling: Fi is generally associated with the ability to gain an implicit sense of the subjective ‘distance’ between two people, and make judgments based off of said thing. Types with valued Fi strive to make and maintain close, personal relationships with their friends and family. They value sensitivity to others’ feelings, and occasionally will make their innermost feelings and sentiments known in order to test the possibility of creating closeness with others. Also, these types convey emotions in terms of how they were affected by something (such as “I did not like that”), rather than an extroverted ethics (Fe) approach that would describe the object itself without clear reference to the subject involved (such as “That sucked”). Much of their decisions are based on how they themselves, or others in relation to them personally, feel in contrast to considering how “the big picture” is affected (such as groups of people). 

 Extroverted Thinking: It is also referred to as Te, P, algorithmic logic, practical logic, or black logic (because the symbol is black). Extroverted logic deals with the external activity of objects, i.e the how, what and where of events, activity or work, behaviour, algorithms, movement, and actions. The how, what and where of events would be the external activity of events, activity or work would be the external activity of a machine or individual(s) and algorithms describe the external activity of objects. Since Te perceives objective, factual information outside the subject (external activity) and analyzes the rationale and functionality of what is happening or being done or said. “Quality” to a Te type is how well an object performs the functions for which it was made. A Te type can judge a person to be “effective” if he is able to achieve his purposes without wasting any energy or producing unwanted side effects. So Te types basically evaluate people and things using the same criteria. 

Introverted Thinking: Ti is generally associated with the ability to recognize logical consistency and correctness, generate and apply classifications and systems, organize systematic and conceptual understanding, see logical connections between things (including logical similarities, differences, and correlations) by means of instinctive feelings of validity, symmetry, and even beauty. It is like common sense, in that it builds on one’s expectations of reality, through a somewhat personal, though explicable, understanding of general truths and how they are manifested. Types that value Ti naturally question the consistency of beliefs that are taken for granted in everyday life. They strongly prefer to make decisions based on their own experience and judgement, as opposed to relying on external authorities for knowledge, which they use only as a last resort. They also have respect for people with clearly defined and internally consistent opinions, believing that a sense of internal certainty is necessary for orienting oneself in life. To these types, one’s personal standards of truth are more reliable than public consensus.They see overly pragmatic views as shallow, and try to limit public discussion of mundane practical matters. They are especially sensitive to redundant information. [ Source: the16types.com ]

[terranuspk]

interesting. i could relate to both uggghh

ExFJ

ESXP

As request by anon, from my tag - #inferior functions

Inferior Ne (ISxJs)

Healthy - The ISxJ will readily accept that there are other options than what they are used to. They’ll listen to the opinions of others, and though they’ll generally go the way they ultimately think is best, they will hear other ideas. They may be likely to brainstorm with a group, so that they can hear everyone else’s ideas in addition to their own.

Unhealthy - The ISxJ will refuse to learn what they do not already know, or have not already been introduced to. They don’t want to hear about other ideas – The ritual they’ve been using is working fine (Even if it’s not). They may, actually, take other ideas, but they’ll cite them as their own. They will likely refuse to accept that others can remember events better than they can, and may go as far as to gaslight someone because of it (“He ate the cookie.” “He did NOT.” [He did.]).

Inferior Ni (ESxPs)

Healthy - The ESxP will think about the future. Though their primary sense will be set on the present, a lot of their decisions will have far reaching consequences that they are well aware of and have considered. Though it’s likely not obvious to people outside of them, they more than likely have a long term plan – it just involves some wiggle room. They’re probably the type to say “Well, I want to take a road trip and end up in California. This is the day I want to get there and I’m going to take this general route,” but not plan out where they’ll stay nightly.

Unhealthy - The ESxP will be caught in the present. They won’t think about the future, or they won’t care. They probably won’t regard the fact that their actions have consequences, and may not think about the meaning of what they do on a day to basis. Another possibility could be that they get very anxious thinking about the future, and continue making bad choices, or none at all.

Inferior Se (INxJs)

Healthy - The INxJ readily receives information from the world around them, and it feeds their dominant Ni. They take leaps of faith when they need to, but are generally reasonable in their decisions and can explain why they made them.

Unhealthy - The INxJ may not have any idea how they’re getting their information, leading all of their decisions to seem unfounded. They may either repeatedly make terrible, impulsive decisions without any thought about it, and then leave people in the dust, or they may constantly be too scared to do anything.

Inferior Si (ENxPs)

Healthy - The ENxP follows nostalgic patterns. They may love to see movies that remind them of their childhood, or to go to candy stores with penny candy, like when they were kids. They likely will be a little bit less than neat and orderly, but they’ll generally have a system to remember where things are.

Unhealthy - The ENxP continuously follows routes to things that are no longer possible. They can’t find anything, and have no idea where they put their things. They daydream about what was, and aren’t really aware that they’re doing it. They continuously wish that they could be back to where they were before, even if it’s completely impossible.

Inferior Fe (IxTPs)

Healthy - The IxTP will recognize that they don’t have a natural inclination towards picking up the emotions of others, and will find ways around it. They’ll likely joke about it so that they don’t seem quite as awkward, and ask questions to make sure they’re not upsetting people. They readily grasp that others have emotions that they may or may not understand, and they work to better that skill and make sure that they can be sensitive to the needs of others.

Unhealthy - The IxTP will either not have any drive to develop their ability to pick up the emotions of others, or will not care, even if they can pick up the emotions of others. People’s feelings are negligible to them – They’d prefer it if they simply didn’t have to deal with them at all. They likely prioritize the logical outcome over the wellbeing of all others, whether or not they recognize that the wellbeing of others may be at stake. They also may notice that they’re hurting people, and not care. They may pick on people’s insecurities for fun, or continue the way that they’re acting when they realize it’s upsetting people.

Inferior Fi (ExTJs)

Healthy - The ExTJ has a moral system that they follow to be a good person. They’re aware of their emotions, and are able to tend to them in a way that hurts neither themselves nor others.

Unhealthy -  The ExTJ has a moral system that’s riddled with terrible, terrible things. They’re led by what their emotions want them to do, and frequently take things out on people around them. When people call them on it, they act as if they’ve been attacked.

Inferior Te (IxFPs)

Healthy - The IxFP has an organizational system for the world around them that helps them be more efficient. They may follow something of a pattern to help them, but likely don’t spend as much time developing it. These people likely have a well-labeled area to help them do stuff without really needing to think about their method all the time.

Unhealthy - The IxFP either has no organizational system or is consistently panicking because they feel lost. They can’t become efficient by any means, and it upsets them. They may struggle to create a way to wrap their minds around the world in a way that can allow them to move smoothly and well.

Inferior Ti (ExFJs)

Healthy - The ExFJ has a consistent logic to their work. They consider whether or not what they’re doing makes sense. If they decide to have a lemonade stand, they think about the logistics of it – Probably not the type to not realize that to make lemonade, you need sugar, and you need to have proportions. Alternatively, they’ll be aware that they don’t have the logical mind to put parts of it together, and they’ll pull someone else in to do that.

Unhealthy - The ExFJ either will try to over-rationalize everything, or will not be able to rationalize anything. Their ability to analyze things and really understand them is nil. Even if they are really getting in and analyzing it, they analyze it to the point where nothing makes sense. They’ll make a lemonade stand, and spend all the time thinking about the prices that make sense for the amount of cups they have, what people will pay, and the amount they want to make, and never buy any lemons.

[terranuspk]

“In socionics Fi is described as relational ethics (the subjective sense of like/dislike) and Fe is called emotional ethics (how moods and feelings impact the external atmosphere). If you are interested in learning more about the socionics definitions, there is a link on animeinmbti’s page.”

Hmm...interesting. I’m self tying as ESFJ...though again, I am not entirely convinced. I want to fully understand and explain to myself how my function works. --- after taking a test from 16personalities, i kept getting ESFP. 

Misconceptions of Fi and Fe

In this post I will try and clarify what exactly the differences are between Fi and Fe, and highlight any common misconceptions about these functions in typology.

Types that value Fi: TJs, FPs Types that value Fe: TPs, FJs

The most simple difference between Fi and Fe is how they perceive and evaluate values (morals or ethics). The idea that:

Fi prefers to develop their values and ethics intrinsically, from within 

Fe prefers to conform to shared values and develops their sense of morals from around them

This is correct. However, this definition causes many spread misconceptions in any source relating to typology, such as tumblr, mbti sites, and forums.

For Fi, this is the need for authenticity, and the dislike of being fake. That Fi types do not like Fe because it is perceived as “fake” and “superficial”. I’m just going to put this out there: Any type can be fake. It is the reason for their decision to be fake that is indicative of type, not the behaviour itself. This applies to typology in general.

Fi types are perceived like enneagram 4 types. It is important not to get these mixed. Here is short paragraph from enneagram institute;

“Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a “rescuer."”

With Fe, the biggest misconception seems be that any selfish person or character cannot be Fe. That Fe types cannot be self absorbed or invested in their own feelings. As an Fe aux, I know this is not the case. I get my values from the social sphere, from viewing morals in a universal perspective, but this does not mean I only care about other peoples actual feelings. I am highly aware of my own emotional state and know this affects my decisions (this is also due to having a dominant function that is introverted perception). It is definitely not accurate to claim that only Fe types can have fake expressions. 

These are a few things you should consider when comparing the functions. 

In socionics Fi is described as relational ethics (the subjective sense of like/dislike) and Fe is called emotional ethics (how moods and feelings impact the external atmosphere). If you are interested in learning more about the socionics definitions, there is a link on animeinmbti’s page.

[terranuspk]

What thinking orientation do i have?

What kind of thinking orientation is this? I ask in detail if there is some sort of process or a step by step approach to things. For instance I have to take notes from my observations to make a schema. So unless I get a guideline of what to do and not do It'll be a challenge for me to do some tasks.

[terranuspk]

Hi, I have a question How an empath gift would manifest in a Fi user and in a Fe user (especially in an ENFP, ENTP and ESFJ)? Can a Fi user easily cry in front of movies and series, or kind of feel what someone else feels, like know or guess what someone that they don't even know feels?

BEHAVIOR DOESN’T INDICATE TYPE.

You can cry all the time and be a thinker. Or never cry and be a feeler. It’s not what you do, it’s why you do it. Ignore behavior. Look for motives.

Fe: I feel for and with you, even though I’ve never gone through this myself, and we can get you through this together.

Fi: I’ve never been what you’ve been through, but I care about you, and what happened to you was wrong, so I’m going to stand with you.

Any type can have empathy. Any type can get upset over cruelty. Anyone can be compassionate. Anyone can have INTENSE FEELS.

How would it manifest?

Through the extroverted functions.

Empathy translates into affirmation, encouragement, and rallying people to work together for a common cause through Fe.

Empathy translates into direct action, organization of groups, or leadership oriented toward a firm resolution through Te.

Fe feels what you feel. It focuses more on your feelings than its own.

Fi thinks how it  might feel in your shoes, and operates from there.

Fe can lose itself by being too involved in other people’s feelings while neglecting their own.

Fi can be incapable of stepping beyond their own experiences to see something from another person’s perspective.

- ENFP Mod

[terranuspk]

Will re read at a later time

Extroverted Sensing (Se) vs Introverted Sensing (Si)

“Whereas the extroverted sensation type is guided by the intensity of objective influences, the introverted type is guided by the intensity of the subjective sensation excited by the objective stimulus.”

Quote from Carl Jung in “Psychological Types” on the Introverted Sensation Type.

It can be difficult to decipher the meaning behind this statement, as well as the rest of Jung’s descriptions.  In this post I aim to make this more clear by breaking down the facts and processes of the cognitive functions.

First of all, what is Sensation? It is the perception of the tangible, physical surrounding. Both sensing functions are grounded and realistic in some way. The purpose of MBTI was to breakdown C.G.Jung’s psychological types more understandable to people in everyday life. MBTI describes sensing as paying attention to tangible reality and the current facts and details within it, which is the same idea as the cognitive functions, except more simplified. However, the cognitive functions emphasize the individuals interpretation of sensory stimuli, which is where the introverted and extroverted orientation comes in. The process is either internal or external;

An introverted function filters objective stimuli through a subjective lens, which involves the individual’s (aka, the “subject”’s) interpretation of a certain experience. 

An extroverted function perceives this objective stimulus as it actually is. In the area of each Jungian dichotomy (sensing, thinking, etc) an individual develops two preferred extroverted perspectives as part of the functional stack (the 4 valued functions / preferences). 

If you keep that in mind then understanding the functions (hopefully) becomes an easier process. 

So finally, onto the Si and Se comparison…

Introverted Sensing…

(Studio Ghibli’s “My Neighbour Totoro” portrays elements of introverted sensation).

Jung’s quote doesn’t correlate with the idea of tradition and the past itself. This came from the strictness of the grounded SJ types. If Introverted functions are centered towards the internal state, then Si perceives sensory experiences in relation to the self. It is the ability to internalize sensations and experience them in full detail. This is why Si can be described as an awareness of the physical state of your own body. It focuses on how direct, tangible sensations affect the internal state of the individual. We are using Si when we exclaim how cold it is for a day in the summer, wearing warm clothing in cold weather, eating ice cream on a hot day, remembering that eating ice cream too fast gives you a brain-freeze, or seeing a colour and associating this with a sensory experience, like “sunset orange” “pukey green colour” “lemon yellow”. Si collects aesthetics and sensory experiences rather than focusing on the actuality of the immediate surroundings (Se). They avoid discomfort and desire to establish an optimum balance with the environment. 

Imagine decorating an Ice cream parlor. Would it look right if you decided to paint it red? It would look better with a colour like pink, yellow, or white, something pastel that represents flavors and other sensory details associated with the theme and experience. We know this because of Introverted Sensing. The SJ would also choose interior decorations that make the experience of going to there more pleasurable to the senses. 

Extroverted Sensing

(Daenerys Targeryen is a clear example of an Se-user).

An Se-ego type (SP) would have the capability to do this too, using Si, but they would much prefer to utilize their Se and other functions belonging to the functional stack. They grow bored with the context of Si or any of the opposite functions (”Shadow functions” are cognitive functions that the type doesn’t value the use of, which is different with the personality types). So, Si is not something they prioritize in their life goals. 

Se is about what currently is rather than how current events are evolving (Ni). You are using Se when you make your text huge or colored on forums to make an impact, recognize someone’s physical strength against yours, or see form and detail as it actually is, for example. See how this doesn’t connect to the individuals subjective interpretation at all? Because Se types are focused on “reality” they know how things impact the environment, how power and influence will affect people. Therefore Se types could make proficient leaders where they would have to thrive on the immediacy and pressure of the situation.

Se is taking action to achieve an object of desire through impact, rather than maintaining a sense of inner stability and unity through sensory pleasures from the environment.

[terranuspk]

Se and Ne Spontaneity Comparison

In what different ways could Ne and Se be unpredictable and spontaneous? It seems like they both are, and they are certainly different so how might their unpredictability be perceived? (I hope this question makes sense...)

They might do the exact same thing… for different reasons. You often can’t tell them apart on a surface level, but it all boils down to … their motivations.

Look at Anna (Frozen) and Ariel (The Little Mermaid). Both impulsive. But telling them apart lies… where? In their motivations and interactions with reality.

Ariel is all about the ideas behind things. The stuff she collects is important to her because it presents her with imaginative possibilities. She ceases seeing the object and starts seeing what it represents – to her, life above the sea. Dreams. Reality is boring… I want to dream about an entirely different life, full of new ideas! Like Anne Shirley, Ariel is all about idealistic interpretations of reality. She sees life not as it is, but how it could be made BETTER… in a non-realistic way, at times. To Anne, the gloriousness of a white avenue filled with apple blossoms is much too wonderful to be given a lousy, boring, mundane name like … well, “the avenue.” No, no, it must be THE WHITE WAY OF DELIGHT! To Ariel, that fork is not just a fork… it reflects a greater society, the idea of a greater life pregnant with new experiences. She passes up a once in a life time (Se) experience to collect “old junk” because the ideas behind the human objects are more exciting than physical experiences.

Now, Anna. Frequently mistyped as a Ne-dom, but she isn’t. She is a romantic but not interested in abstracting beyond the object, but in interacting with it at face value. She loves new experiences for their own sake! She would never pass up the chance to sing in front of everyone in a “once in a lifetime” concert… to collect old stuff. Why? Because old stuff is meaningless to her; she sees it for what it is, old stuff. She wants new experiences! Though impulsive, she is very sensory… she is not laying around the castle daydreaming, she is riding bikes down staircases, and leaping around the roof, and building snowmen. Yes, she’s impressionable, and unrealistic in her “love for Hans,” but that’s just being oriented in the moment. She wants new experiences for their own sake, not because they give her ideas.

(Olaf the Snowman is the Ne-dom in Frozen… and the only intuitive. Look at how he sees the world in comparison with how Anna sees it for an example of the difference.)

So, what’s Se and Ne’s motive? Why are they doing what they are doing? What leads them to be impulsive? Are they seeking new ideas and possibilities and pursuing idealistic dreams (Ne) or are they interested in new experiences, in objectivity in the realm of sensory influences, in interacting physically with their environment (Se)?

[terranuspk]

“Fe is about affecting, directly or indirectly, the feelings of others....

...while Te wants to change the material world Fe wants to change and move the feelings of others”

Yeah, harmony centric and shit hahaha this is more specific and point to the root cause or drive.

Function Pairs: Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti

SUBMITTED by marvoliarty

So while I was cleaning my room at 2 am, I was simultaneously listening to YouTube videos about MBTI types. This fantastic video, whose name I don’t recall, was on ENFJ and then INFJ. The main part that stuck out to me and made me literally stop the video and contemplate was the best clarification of what Fe DOES that I’ve ever heard, and then it went on to compare these functions brilliantly.  

In a nutshell, what it said is that Fe isn’t all about harmony and shiz, but that extroverted judging functions are all about affecting change into their world. Fe is about affecting, directly or indirectly, the feelings of others. THAT’S why they prefer emotional appeals to factual ones, because while Te wants to change the material world Fe wants to change and move the feelings of others. (Taking it as a tert function as in ExTPs is why those types like to mess with you. They’re CHANGING others emotions for their own entertainment).

Te anywhere in the stack wants to change the outer world according to the personal desires of Fi. Fi decides what is right for itself or what it wants and then Te decides to give physical reality to it.  

Fe anywhere in the stack wants to emotionally affect other people according to the logical system of order from Ti. Ti internally processes what is the ideal for everyone because it is thinking and therefore impersonal; it only wants a logical system. Fe applies the logical system by affecting emotions in other people. 

Fe/Ti and Ti/Fe might say ‘this is the ideal system that the world should function by’ and then try to change the world to that through people, by people, for people. It will say ‘this is important’ and want to share it with others because it is about affecting other people through emotions.

Te/Fi and Fi/Te might say ‘this is what I want for myself’* and work that into physical reality.  

The universality of Fe and the individualized nature of Te come from the introverted functions. Ti makes a logical internal system of how the would should work. Since it is a thinking function, it is impersonal, it is general. It transmits the universal system across to other people as a logical standard.  

Fi makes decisions for and by itself and its own wants and ideas of importance, and is concerned with making its feelings a reality. As its feeling, it is personal, and self related. Te is just about tailoring to Fi’s wants and Fe is tailoring to Ti’s wants.

* Mod Note: I think this is good, but I’d change “this is what I want for myself” of Fi to “this is what I believe is important.” You’re right in that Fi wants to make its feelings a reality. Te sees the usefulness of impacting people’s emotions to accomplish something also, but it’s always in servicing a Te-goal (I think an excellent example of a strong Te doing this is Patty Hewes in Damages, who uses others’ emotions to service her desire to inflict justice / punishment on immoral businesses through legal litigation).

For example: the best novel engages people’s emotions, and novels that engage people’s emotions sell (financial incentive) or make an impact on society in some way to change them (Fi-incentive), so I actively try and influence people’s emotions as an author to achieve my goal to make them see this person in a certain way, change their mind about a past event, or broaden their historical understanding. If my job is to increase a business’ productivity through advertising, or get people to donate to a charity providing incomes and schooling for children in third world countries, I target people’s emotions and tug on their heartstrings – because the goal is to get them to commit financially, for a greater cause that I feel is important. - ENFP Mod

[terranuspk]

Oooh

Se vs Si

Si is generally hard to understand and many people just think that is has something to do with “remembering things” and stuff. I’m certainly not an expert at this but there are some conclusions that I came to lately that could maybe be helpful for some people.

Se is an externally focused function and Si is internally focused. Se works with the raw data while Si has already processed everything. It’s the same as with Te and Ti. Te is objective and just uses the facts that can’t be changes while Ti thinks of its own system that already has little correlation with reality(I also support the theory that there is no concrete “reality” but that’s another topic)

If we have a bunch of Se users in a room and something happens around them, they will each take in the information from their senses and each have an objective view of the situation.

If we put a bunch of Si-users in a room, though, they will each unconsciously interpret the information from their senses and every Si user will get a different impression of the situation.

As a practical example, this is how my INFJ friend and I talk about past experiences:

- INFJ: I remember that I was in a cafe with my mum and a friend of hers a few years back. Everything smelled like cigarette smoke and the conversations around us were really loud. On the table was a tablecloth with flowers and a vase with a white rose.

- ENTP: When I went to a cafe with my dad a while ago, I knew that I had already been there but I didn’t remember when. The waitress was very nice and the general atmosphere was rather pleasant. We were sitting outside and I think that there were also some flowers around…

Se will really remember what happened in the situation objectively while Si will refer to the feeling that it got during the situation.

I hope that this makes sense ~

[terranuspk]

Te vs Ti

When asked why they believe something is true/false, a Te-user will typically reference solid, observable evidence (like statistics) to support their claim as truth. In the same situation, a Ti-user will generally walk you through their logic, step-by-step, in order to prove that the method they used to arrive at their conclusion is valid.

In short;

Te will explain why its views are true.

Ti will explain why its views are valid.

[terranuspk]

Fe vs Fi

Fe: Helping people makes me feel more physically/mentally "good".

Fi: I won't be physically/mentally able to help people UNLESS I already "feel" good.

For Fe, they GAIN energy by helping. For Fi they EXPEND it. Fi is not inherently MORE SELFISH than Fe. It actually takes more effort and strain for them to help people.

It's the same as extroverts getting energy from people and the external world, and introverts getting energy from the internal world. Introverts are not more selfish for needing to recharge and take time away from people. So why is Fi seen in such a light? It's the SAME situation!