thecostumeplot

[thecostumeplot]

BONUS 2: Halston with Jeriana San Juan

Accompanying slideshow for episode can be found here.

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

And I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo

Hello.

Sarah  

Hi. Welcome back to The Costume Plot!

Jojo  

Yes, we have a special bonus episode today. And we're really excited. We have another guest artist this month. We have a lot this month. So I will give us a quick introduction because we don't have a ton of time and I want to make sure we get to all of our questions.

Sarah  

Oh yeah.

Jojo  

But our guest today is Jeriana. She has done a lot of work that spanned film, TV, Broadway and commercials. So you know her work most recently from "Halston," which we'll be covering a lot of today--but she'll also be talking about some of her other experiences working as a TV/film designer--for which she was also just Emmy nominated, "Halston." Her other credits also include "The Sinner," "The Plot Against America," and "The Get Down," which is actually one of my favorite shows. So I was really excited to read that. And then Sarah, take away the rest of it.

Sarah  

Yeah. She's also assistant designed some high profile shows such as "Legally Blonde: The Musical," "Saturday Night Live," the TV series "Flesh and Bone," and Madonna's 2008 World Tour, "Sticky and Sweet." And yeah, she's here today to talk all things "Halston" with us. So please welcome Jeriana San Juan.

Jeriana  

Thank you for that amazing introduction. Thank you for my credits. She ain't done yet, honey. She's not done.

Jojo  

Definitely not.

Jeriana  

I'm still building those credits.

Sarah  

Absolutely. Aren't we all?

Jojo  

So true. All right.

Jeriana  

No, I'm happy to be here with you guys. We're all part of a costume family.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely.

Sarah  

Absolutely.

Jojo  

It's such a small world, too. We're always trying to meet and connect with other designers. So thank you so much for coming to share with us.

Jeriana  

Of course, my pleasure.

Sarah  

Yeah, I'm so excited to have the perspective of someone... because both of us mostly work in theatre. So I'm so excited to have the perspective of someone who does more TV and film, because that's just a new voice for us to have on the show.

Jeriana  

That's great. Yeah, I mean, my background is in theatre. It's certainly where I got my start in New York, which felt like the natural progression. I sort of had this very odd track, because I was always sort of attracted to theatre. And my... one of my mothers is a ballerina--or was a ballerina.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jeriana  

So it sort of was my entry into theatrical design was, you know, seeing her costumes for the ballets that she was performing, and being in the rehearsal studio watching them, you know, dance in rehearsal tutus. And being in the costume shop. At the time I was so little, I was sort of like... would just grab fabrics from the costume shop, and then make, you know, dresses for my Barbies sitting in the rehearsal studio, which was pretty magical.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

But that was sort of my entry point. And I sort of went sort of theatre, fashion, theatre, film and television. [laughs] So what I love is costume design, for both of those things. Because they really... I feel like it takes a very different point of view to design for theatre than it does for film and television. And it's an interesting space to be working between those two things. And it's really cool for me to sort of have geek-out sessions with other costume designers who are theatre costume designers. Because there's a whole 'nother like... there's a whole level of geekdom to that. And then there's a whole level of costume designers who do film and television, and kind of can talk about some of the things that are very, you know, kind of in the highbrow spectrum of that world. So there's different niches to both of those things. And they're so-- the applications are so different between them.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Totally.

Jojo  

I love that. Sarah, do you want to start with our first question? Thank you, that was such a great introduction, Jeriana.

Sarah  

Yeah, I completely agree. Like, costuming is all under one umbrella, I guess. But then underneath there's all the little branches that are-- it's all different, but it's all so exciting and fun to learn about.

Jeriana  

Yeah. And so exciting, I think, the differences. But it's so exciting for me to be a person, I think, who can sort of live between all of those worlds. I mean, I was the same kid when I was in high school and didn't want to sit with either the theatre kids or the, you know, goth girls, or the fashion girls, or the hip hop kids. I sat at everybody's table once a week, because I didn't want to commit to any end of that spectrum. And I find equal parts joy and love for all of those different things. So yeah, I think it's a cool thing, right, that there's this costume community. But we span people who can do, you know, opera, which is a completely different skill set than someone who can do you know, some trilogy... TV show, you know, where the clothes look real and gritty and ordinary. There's just such a wide range in there.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about "Halston," because... I personally have never done anything for film or TV. So to me, designing a whole TV show seems so daunting. So tell us a little bit about sort of like your process, how you build your team... just how you sort of approach it.

Jeriana  

So the process for "Halston"... and it was daunting, there's no doubt about it. [all laugh] I mean, it was going to be-- I think, here's the most daunting part about "Halston," is that the people who are going to tune in to watch "Halston" are probably going to be, you know, participating in the fashion world on some level. Whether they are fans, admirers, were there at Studio 54 dancing with him... you know, knew him, and involved in the fashion industry. Or just lovers of fashion, you know, and art and culture that he was a part of. So I knew there would be a critical eye watching this show. I was sort of like, "Oh, my gosh, this is the show I want to watch" when I even, you know, heard that the show was coming to New York and happening. So, it was incredibly daunting. And that's also exactly what was so attractive about it. I love things that scare me. And it definitely scared me because it is massive, and the pressure was on. And I just knew a discerning eye would be watching. And those same fashion discerning eyes are also the most-- you know, can be very vocally disapproving. [all laugh]

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

Very true.

Jeriana  

I sort of was like, "if Andre Leon Talley watches this and can read me, it's the problem." [all laugh] But truly, you know, I first got wind that it was even coming to New York because a line producer that I had worked with in the past--and was going to be the person producing it locally--inquired with me if I was interested or available in the whole thing. Because she knew I had a fashion background and a fashion interest. And it, you know, felt like a project that would suit me, and got me the meeting with the director, Daniel Minahan. Who was, you know, we were like peas and carrots immediately, as soon as we met. Because there really was... we just started a dialogue right away about this sort of mutual appreciation for Halston. His body of work. Appreciation, from my point of view, of what formulated his artistic voice, and the designers that he was inspired by. And, you know, I started talking about Charles James, which was a big inspiration of his, and other designers like Madeleine Vionnet, who I think he was very inspired by. And just what makes that voice so... sort of just stand apart from the rest. And how that was sort of equal parts wonderful and worth celebrating, but also really tricky to approach from a costume designer's point of view. because to chart his artistic journey, and to chart this sort of voice of the clothes over a period of time... it's really hard to date his clothes because they sort of transcend time and have a timelessness to them.

Both  

Mmhmm.

Jeriana  

That... you know, how do you know that this dress is from the 1970s? Because it looks like it could be hanging in Saks Fifth Avenue today. And how to really create that context for the audience. And a juxtaposition between his world and his clothes, and the surrounding environments so that it would always feel like a caveman inventing the wheel, you know. So it would really feel just like an absolute Edison bulb moment, where it felt like a brand new revolution/evolution. And so that's kind of where the conversation began. And knowing that those were my motivations... you know, it's kind of the way an actor kind of goes into a character with certain motivations, right? You have to come into your design with a motivation to inspire, or to scare, or to keep things kind of veiled and under mystery. There's always some motivation behind the design. And so my motivation primarily was to do several things; it was to highlight the artistry of his clothes and the revolutionary aspects of his clothes. And to set them apart visually, so that they felt truly kind of highlighted and remarkable, and that your eyes were drawn to them. And also to chart a journey for the audience to kind of heighten the visual sense around Halston... that we would build a vocabulary through color, and fabric, to mirror his emotional journey. And also kind of help sharpen that pencil as we went through the story so that as he's building his brand--and building his name, and building his artistic world--that the things around him visually become much more controlled by his sort of tunnel vision in design, and how that would sort of consume the world. In my mind, it was sort of this "consuming the world" in the signature Halston red, which sort of felt somewhat symmetrical to his journey, as a character and as a person. You know, this journey that sort of rises in fame, and then simultaneously things become much more tumultuous around him. And there's much more sort of anger and fear and all of that in the world. And so to me, the color of red, which is very signature color of Halston, would be sort of rising throughout the story, and then ultimately sort of consuming him right as he has his great descent from fame.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. I love that, and it carries through the set too, as well, because he has his beautiful, you know, city view office that's like... everything in it is red. So I can totally see that carrying through the story.

Jeriana  

Yeah, his Olympic tower. And it was meant to really build into that too. I mean, the Olympic tower red carpet, and all of those mirrors around the walls... and the view over St. Patrick's Cathedral and Fifth Avenue in New York, that's all legitimately true. Like, that was his great kind of empire, you know, tower over in New York City. And the red was partially drawn from that carpet, really. And the fact that it really was-- if you study his body of work, red just is... over and over. It's like the signature color of his. And it's a specific shade of red, too. That kind of very specific red with kind of bluish undertones that really looks good on almost every skin tone.

Both  

Mmhmm.

Jeriana  

So that red is really where it was inspired from, and in fact, when we got to the point of actually creating that Olympic tower, and the production designer was, you know, choosing the carpet, I was a big part of that. Because I was already partway through the builds on some of my red garments for him. And I wanted to make sure everything, you know, looked right against each other. So I took a big cut of the carpet that they had chosen, and kept it in my fitting room so that as we started to fit actors that worked within the Olympic tower set that it's, you know... there were tons of red elements, and I could constantly sort of be checking the reds against each other in the fitting process. So that red was... I sort of lived in that red for almost a year. [laughs]

Jojo  

That's great. I think that's something that's so important about costume designers having this part of the conversation too, because when we are kind of invested in a piece of work, you know, it becomes our entire world, right? Whether it's the color palette, or the patterns, or the textures that you're looking at on a daily basis. So I love that you're talking a little bit about that. And that actually kind of segues into one of the questions that I had as well. You mentioned that you had built quite a few of the dresses, as well. Were you building a lot of the costumes that were on the show, or how much of it did you source or, you know, that kind of thing? Especially since you're referring to actual garments that existed in this time.

Jeriana  

Right. So, I mean, here's the tricky balance. The tightrope that I had to walk the entire time... is celebrating Halston, and representing his clothes with artistic integrity and truth. I was on some level, you know, recreating-- I was really recreating things a good majority of the time.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Jeriana  

But I had to sort of find a formula to work within, where I could simultaneously pay authentic tribute while also continuing to stay within a frame of mind of storytelling. So it was not always recreating word for word. I would oftentimes try to sort of... I can only say this by saying, I grounded my feet in reality--and in the research and in truth--and my head was in the clouds. [all laugh] And dreaming.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

Because I had to really continue to... I just wanted to propel his voice forward in the context of what we were able to show in the series. Because we're not able to show his entire body of work, which is impressive, and a lifetime of work. So really in order to sort of condense that all down to what ultimately were, I think, five or six fashion shows, and you know, a few other things I was able to highlight between. And I sort of had to... I really had to filter down the language of what we were going to show for each collection. And then I would start with what authentically was a part of that, that is something that just is such a quintessential piece that I have to show. And I think a great example of this is the tie dye fashion show that we open with in the series, as his sort of premier collection in his 68th Street office on his own. And the choice to do tie dye was even just sort of propelled by the fact that tie dye's.... You know, it's such a recognizable thing in culture today. I mean, I was not anticipating COVID and the great tie dye year of 2021. [all laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh. Yes.

Jeriana  

I wasn't anticipating that, but that was a happy accident.

Jojo  

Right.

Jeriana  

But no, the tie dye thing sort of felt like a great way to kind of show his voice as this very sophisticated designer with incredible taste, who was able to take this very hippy, loose concept and really turn it into high art. And that's a completely authentic real thing, and something he, you know, absolutely did. There are silhouettes from that collection... so I think that collection was ultimately 10 pieces. And I found three originals.

Jojo  

Wow.

Jeriana  

I found actually a few more, but I ended up having to edit those out because I was trying to do a very, very calculated color palette. So I could only use three garments that ultimately fit in that color palette. And... that were absolutely incredible. There was one piece that gets a lot of screen time, which is this brown caftan that has these aqua and sort of paper-colored diamond patterns that run through it. And it's really-- it looks like a kaleidoscope. It's absolutely magnificent. And that piece became an anchor point for me in terms of the palette. And then I, from that, sort of borrowed from what I was able to sort of un-obscure from some actual photographs of that collection. And I found some references at the Conde Nast archive that were some editorial shoots that had been done with some of those tie dye clothes. And again, sort of, you know, took what I could from the photo and sort of re-mapped out what I thought the design could be, and then sort of invented some things in between that sort of married some of his signature silhouettes, like the silk pajamas. You know, he had this one dress that had this big butterfly sleeve on it. So I kind of borrowed that and made a pattern for it that borrowed from another piece. So it sort of becomes this way to sort of decopage together all of these ideas that that will all come together and feel like a cohesive collection of one voice... of one sort of, you know, set of ideas that are motivating him in this time. And when I was putting those collections together, I sort of had my motivations of what was going to design that collection. And then I sort of put on my fashion designer, "what would Halston do?" hat, to really kind of put that all together and map that out. And had a wonderful dyer helping to bring all of those things to life. And, you know, that was just one collection, and that was an enormous amount of work to bring all that to life. But I think it's important, you know... this is something I tell a lot of younger people now, and it took me a long time, I think, in my own career, to get past this point. Because sometimes the "how is it gonna happen" is so intimidating that you don't allow yourself to have a full course of creative thought before you're already stopping yourself with, "but how can it be done?"

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jeriana  

And how to make it real is scary, or how to make it on budget is scary. And I sort of equated it to like, being my own assistant designer, right? So like, I tell that assistant designer in my head that says, "How is this going to manifest into reality?" and I tell it to go away. [all laugh]

Jojo  

Yep.

Jeriana  

And then I allow myself to have the full creative thought, beginning to end that will help me navigate: What is the motivation? What does this moment call for? What is the design? How should it feel to the audience? How should it feel for the characters living in that space? Go through all of those exercises, emotionally and mentally, and... you know, how that can be. And really get to the other side of it, so that you know you've had a complete artistic thought. And then once you really get to the point of "that's what it needs to be," then your assistant designer self can come back in your brain and go, "but how are we going to make this happen, boss?" [all laugh]

Sarah  

Right.

Jeriana  

Because it's really, you know... it's scary. It's scary, because you could have really big thoughts. And, you know, they won't always be the right thoughts. Sometimes the more... you know, the sort of more slapdash, taped solution is actually ultimately the better one, but at least allow yourself the creative space. And it's so hard because everything is so fast and so demanding. And it's so hard to find that space, and I still have a hard time for myself kind of arguing for that space, so that I can allow myself to really be immersed in something enough to sort of see it in my mind first, before I start worrying about, you know, where are the clothes going to come from. And I really advocate for that for everyone. Because it's, I think, a better place to start from. And then you can always, you know, find the way to turn what's in your mind as, you know, something incredibly elaborate and dazzling into, you know, shopping Forever 21 or wherever. [Jojo & Sarah laugh]

Sarah  

Right.

Jeriana  

But, you know, allow yourself to be there first. And, you know, imagine the way you really, really would love to do it, if you had a million dollars and all the time in the world. And then start peeling back.

Jojo  

I love that.

Sarah  

I think that is brilliant advice, actually, that I feel like I need to take more in my design work. It's so hard to shut down that sort of practical, like, "Mmm, can you actually do that?" voice and actually allow your creativity to really explore the bounds of what is even possible.

Jeriana  

Totally. And it's, you know... that's what we're hired for. That's what we're here for. You know, there are amazing creatives who write stories, who are hired for their thoughts, to write. They don't need to know how to type on the computer, you know? [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeriana  

That's kind of what it is. I mean, listen, it's... the magic place is to be in the place where you really do know how to turn water into wine quickly. And that comes with time in doing what you do, and learning all the tricks of the trade, and learning all the resources and learning all of... you know, every way to turn a rabbit out of a hat, ultimately. But allow yourself to get to that creative place where what you're hired for is your ideas. And, you know, the rest will will come into place. And quite honestly, the most luck I've had in my career is with actors when I've just sort of talked about character, you know, in a limitless way. Not like, you know, "well, I was able to get to this store and this store. So this is what I brought to you." But talk about the character as a character and as a person, and where they might shop. And you know, where they might shop might-- or how they even want to represent themselves, right? Are they presentational or not? Or do they not care about how they look on the facade? Or did they get these clothes from someone else? Are they hand-me-downs? Or did they make very precise choices in what they're wearing? And let that guide the conversation as opposed to, "I have this budget, so I can only shop here." And I really speak to that on so many levels. Because I came up from very humble beginnings, my family is an immigrant Cuban family. And I was always taught by my grandmother that you invent your self, you know? [laughs] There's no-- it doesn't matter, you know, how much money we have. You have the opportunity with your mind to do anything, in your imagination to do anything. And when I was dreaming of, you know, these looks in the magazines and reimagining them or that kind of thing... it was just like, "Okay, great, we have these curtains, let's take them down and make a dress that looks like that." And, you know, that's... I think it's an important place to start from, is not be... don't be caught up in all the, you know, sort of the fashion design of it. You know, the designer-ness of it all. I don't like to participate in that, I like to participate in creativity.

Jojo  

Yeah. I mean, I think that's so much more innovative, too. Being able to-- you know, because that is where our mind expands, right? If it's already been done in a designer store, then they've had that creative moment where they're able to do that. And I think there's something really lovely about being able to recreate and reinvent. And not, you know-- it is also one of those things, as a designer, when you're trying to recreate a period. I think what you said earlier about finding that kind of careful place on the tightrope of, "how do I pay homage while also not just copying what they've done in the past?" You know, how do we heighten the story? And how do we tell that? And I think that's great,.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, no, it truly is. I kind of kept saying, you know, "how do I condense this?" Like, the 1980s don't get five looks on the runway.

[laughs] So hard.

Sarah  

Oh boy.

Jeriana  

Like, it's so hard. It's really felt like Sophie's Choice, like, how am I going to decide which outfit makes it and even, you know... then it's sort of like, I could come up with five things, but they don't relate together and create a collection.

Sarah  

Sure.

Jeriana  

So it really was about kind of summarizing a novel like "War and Peace" into a haiku.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

[laughs]

Jojo  

That's a great way to describe that.

Sarah  

Absolutely.

Jojo  

Cool. Well, thank you so much for talking about that. We're going to shift gears a little bit. You want to ask the next question, Sarah? Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Sarah  

It's fine, it's fine. [laughs] Did you have a hand in sort of preparing the actors to kind of look like they know what they're doing? Like, Ewan McGregor especially has to handle a lot of fabric and stuff. Like, were you directly involved in sort of... did they go through a boot camp of like, building clothes?

Jeriana  

Yes. Well, we-- I mean, yes, I had my time with Ewan for sure. And initially tried to even engage someone, because my time as just the costume designer was so spread thin that I was like, "Who's going to teach Ewan?" because he really wanted to learn. He had expressed that early on, like, he wanted to have Halston's hands. He wanted to manipulate fabric and, you know, move through the workroom in a very natural way. Because he's a brilliant actor and really, truly wanted to inhabit him. So we made time to have some of those lessons about fitting, you know. And he would even sort of watch me in the fitting as I was fitting him, to kind of see the way my eyes moved, and see the way I sort of would hold him up against the mirror. And we noticed that in Halston-- in footage of Halston, as well, the way that he sort of used his hands was very much like a dancer, you know, when he held his hands and was sort of looking at things on a fitting model and adjusting things, he would reference everything in the mirror. Because it's a natural way to work when you're in a fitting and looking at something as a whole, and referencing it from a distance, as opposed to, you know, close up. And that was, you know, that was in itself a lesson, as was pinning fabric or an muslin on a model, you know, that's very specific. It's a very specific skill set to have-- you know, find a way to anchor the fabric securely, so it doesn't slip off and reveal a naked woman. And then also how to pin something on a person--a real person--where you're not stabbing them.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

And I never thought handling pins was so... was, you know, that complicated. And it's because I've been doing it for, you know, 20 plus years. But I think...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

...with an actor stepping into that, I really realized how that muscle memory, it's the same way an artist handles a paintbrush. It's the same way a hairstylist handles a brush and a, you know, hairdryer. It's the same-- it's a very specific way to use hand tools, the way a surgeon uses, you know, tools. It's really... there's a muscle memory to that, that is a learned skill. And it's part of what he had to practice, to do Halston right. And the conversation not only became about Halston, it also spread to the tailors in the workroom, because we were hiring background artists and actors. And, as best-- you know, I sent out sort of a little sheet to our background casting agency of like, you know, a request to try to have people who had tailoring experience, or some sewing experience, so that they wouldn't look like they were fumbling in the background with pins.

Sarah  

Absolutely.

Jeriana  

And it's that same kind of thing... I'm sort of building this illusion, right, for everyone who's really going to know this world, and have been in a fitting room or in a workroom. And I think that kind of thing could really... it could really ruin it for the whole show. It could ruin it for the audience if you're watching a tailor in the background kind of take fake measurements on a dress form...

Both  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

...that you're like, "that guy's not doing something real."

Sarah  

Yes. [laughs]

Jeriana  

So I was on set every day, and would help...

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jeriana  

...give motivation, instruction, to all of the background on set, you know. "You here, you're gonna hold up this sloper," or "you're gonna put a sloper down and put weights on it, and then trace it." [laughs] Like, I would give each person something to do in that way and was given license to do that from Dan...

Jojo  

That's great.

Jeriana  

...who gave me his complete blessing to help kind of motivate those people in the background. But then also, before we started shooting-- all of those people that we had hired to be sort of the core staff of his tailors, and his seamstresses, and all the people who would work in his atelier. And I actually had a seamstress that I work with quite often, and her name is Cheryl McCarran. And she came in for the day and set up and held a class for all of these people...

Jojo  

Wow.

Jeriana  

...to kind of go over a skill set.

Sarah  

Cool!

Jeriana  

And it was a bit of a boot camp to talk about, you know, all of the the basic practical elements. But then also sort of, like, you know, kind of test them individually to see how well they could perform, to see if maybe this is somebody who we needed to have, you know, at a sewing machine with their back to the camera, or this is someone we could really feature. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

And then Cheryl actually worked on set, and she's actually on camera quite a bit in the show as a stunt sort of tailor.

Jojo  

That's great.

Sarah  

Cool!

Jeriana  

So that was kind of such a unique, cool thing for her...

Jojo  

Her debut. [laughs]

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jeriana  

...To like, have my own little plant in there, somebody who-- when he, you know, is requiring a pin, who could hand him one appropriately to not prick him... and in a way that he can then, you know, work with it appropriately. So it was... you know, it's like a stunt person.

Sarah  

Totally. Oh my gosh, if somebody who-- because I build, too. So if somebody was like, "we want you to be there," I would be like, "Oh yeah, here I come!" [all laugh] I would be on camera, that'd be so fun.

Jeriana  

I know, it was the funniest thing-- when we actually fit her for HER costumes, was kind of a trip. [all laugh]

Sarah  

She's like, "Take it in here, take it in here. Yes. Okay, I'll pin it on myself."

Jojo  

I was gonna say, what a treat to to be able to have that kind of authority, to have control over who's actually in the background. Because, you know, we don't often get that...

Sarah  

Oh yeah.

Jojo  

...ability to have a say in that. And I think that that-- it really makes a committed choice. And I think that, you know, again, going back to collaboration... because we do talk about that a lot on our podcast. It's so important, how much your relationship with the director works in the favor of the show, and the storytelling that needs to happen. So I love that.

Jeriana  

Absolutely.

Jojo  

I think that more more places need to be able to do that. So that it really truly is such a collaboration.

Sarah  

Totally.

Jeriana  

Well, also, just the more-- I am just excited, and still am, that this show was made. That there was a story about about a fashion designer. And that WAS the story, and it wasn't like he was, you know, an episode on him and then back to the the real important thing.

Jojo  

Right. Right.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jeriana  

It was like, no, it's his story. And I love that, and I want to see more, you know, shows like that. And I've been planting the seed at Ryan Murphy TV that they should do, you know, "American Fashion Story" and do another designer.

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

Yeah!

Jeriana  

Because I just love the concept of following an artistic journey of someone whose art is clothing.

Jojo  

Right.

Jeriana  

And that is just-- I'm so completely romanced by that idea. And I want more shows like this to be made.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Same. We will cosign that. [all laugh]

Jeriana  

Okay.

Sarah  

'Cuz... oh my gosh.

Jeriana  

We'll start a petition.

Jojo  

I know.

Sarah  

Fabulous. Yes.

Jojo  

Well hopefully this gets the word out, at least, and we can have more people sign the petition with us. [laughs]

Jeriana  

Yes, we have to start a hashtag, we have to start a whole campaign.

Sarah  

Yes!

Jojo  

I love it.

Sarah  

#AmericanFashionStory, let's get a trending, everybody.

Jojo  

I love that, because we've been doing so many biopics of, you know, musicians. A lot of musicians have been coming out and doing those things. So why can't we do the same thing with, you know, with fashion designers or clothing couturiers and things like that? So...

Jeriana  

Right.

Jojo  

...I love that idea. I think that's great.

Jeriana  

Yeah, you know, it's just such an important... I think it's an important recording of history. There's no-- you know, fashion is such a recording of history. It's such a-- it's an expression of everyone's feelings, and the political climate, and social custom, and money, and art. And it's an amalgamation of all of those things. So to me, it is the natural place for storytelling.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Totally agree. The history of fashion is the history of people, of civilization.

Jeriana  

Correct. Yes.

Jojo  

Abslutely.

Jeriana  

Exactly. Yeah. And then, but also... what I find so interesting about that history of fashion is just the context of desire versus need, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

And the very different spectrums of that. I've been obsessed with this new show that's called "Worn Stories," have you watched that?

Jojo  

I have not yet seen that yet.

Sarah  

Yeah, I've seen a few episodes of it!

Jeriana  

And it's just...

Sarah  

It''s so cool.

Jeriana  

It's so cool. And it's just like, it's an interesting way to perceive clothes and what the clothes experience, you know?

Both  

Mmhmm.

Jeriana  

And why someone-- what clothes mean to people for various reasons, whether it's... people are sentimental about their clothes, or whether they need to serve a unique function. And I feel like a costume designer's relationship to clothes is very similar, because we understand the function of clothes. And, you know, costume design... the function of the clothes, primarily, is to tell you everything about that character, before they've even opened their mouth. So, it really, to me... and, you know, I think I'm also... right now, we are preaching to the choir, I have to say.

Jojo  

Absolutely.

Jeriana  

Because everybody probably agrees with us, who is listening to this.

Both  

[laughs]

Sarah  

Hopefully.

Jeriana  

But if you're not a costume person listening to this...

Jojo  

Right.

Jeriana  

...you know, I think it's a cool thing to really exercise. Because everyone dresses, so everyone gets dressed. Everybody has their own relationship with clothes, whether they say they don't care about them. [laughs] Say they don't care about them...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

...or really do, or use them as a way to artistically express themselves loudly, or really quietly... and to, you know, sort of create a camouflage to blend and not stick out or to uniform. And, you know, there's so many different ways that people can wear clothes, and I mean, a show like this, for me was like... it was like Thanksgiving. You know, it was like, the most exciting celebration of clothes. And of what they mean. And, you know, fashion. Of the best--in my mind--the best parts of fashion, you know. Ultimately, also the worst parts of fashion, the whole business aspect of them.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Jeriana  

But I really loved all of the-- I loved how, you know, it just felt to me like these clothes were a celebration, and his designs were a celebration. And it was a very happy place to live in, I think, for a very long time while we made this show. And of course, you know, with COVID arriving partway through shooting and taking a six month hiatus, I actually realized once I got back...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

...to working on "Halston," how kind of privileged I was. And how it was a bit of a saving grace for me through the depths of, you know, COVID isolation, to still kind of have this story and all of these things in the back of my mind. Because it was quite uplifting, and, quite a sort of happy and glamorous place to sort of be dreaming of artistically, you know, through a very uncertain time. So I'm very grateful to the show for kind of, you know, getting me through some of those-- some of those long days in pajamas. [all laugh]

Jojo  

Yup.

Sarah  

That we all had, yes. [laughs]

Jojo  

Oh, great. That's so wonderful.

Sarah  

So we're-- I know we said about 40 minutes. So we should probably wrap up because you've had a long day, we know.

Jeriana  

[laughs]

Sarah  

First of all, congratulations on your Emmy nomination, that is so dang exciting. Is there anything that you want to plug, or mention your social media, where people can find you, follow your work?

Jeriana  

Well, thank you very much. I'm very pleased to be honored. And I'm also amazed, you know, I still stop and have those moments where I just sort of check myself, like, "How on Earth did I get here?" What series of decisions did I make, that I'm even here, you know, at this point in my career? You know, this nomination, it's really... it's quite overwhelming. And I think instantly about my family, about how hard working my family has always been, about my grandparents who immigrated to this country... you know, my mother, who immigrated to this country with them. And how blessed I am to be born here, and afforded the opportunities to give me the education to allow me to pursue a creative career... a creative, sort of uncertain career. And that, you know, that I am here today... it just feels like a series of things that have kind of led me here, and I'm just... there's some chance. There's a lot of chance involved in that. And so I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful for this nomination and for all of the opportunities I've been given in my career. So I just don't-- you know, let it be known, I do not take these things for granted, I really don't. I work so hard at everything that I do and give it my entire self. And so I'm just... beyond, beyond to be even nominated. And to be alongside these other nominees whom I respect and admire and, you know, just feel like... giddy to see my name alongside. So, I'm so over the moon about that. And what's next for me, I cannot talk about.

Sarah  

Ooh!

Jeriana  

I have signed paperwork that says that I cannot speak about it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

But it's keeping me very busy right now.

Jojo  

As we can tell. [all laugh]

Jeriana  

And it's-- I will just say this, it's something that no one expects me to do.

Sarah  

Ooh.

Jeriana  

And once again, it is something that completely terrifies me. So that's a good thing.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I think that's great.

Jeriana  

Yeah, I think it's good to be scared. And, you know, just... intimidated and scared is a good place to be, and it's a good way to channel some of that energy into good, into positive... into creativity. But yeah, I'm very excited about this thing that I'm doing now. And you can follow me... social media plug. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

Of course.

Sarah  

Do it.

Jeriana  

At @jeriana on Instagram. I'm not really up on the other social medias. But that one I actually do keep up on. And I think I do because it's visual, right? I think that's why a lot of people love it.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Jeriana  

And I love, you know, being able to search-- I use it for research all the time now. It's so easy to just...

Jojo  

Absolutely.

Jeriana  

..."hashtag whatever," and just start going down a wormhole. Though I still love a brick and mortar library like no one else. And I love...

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

[gasps] Oh my gosh, me too.

Jeriana  

I love a picture collection. I love a museum to look at some... you know, make an appointment at a museum to look at something in real life. Put those white gloves on, touch something real. It's-- there's nothing like it.

Jojo  

Nice to be able to do that again.

Jeriana  

Oh my gosh, yes.

Jojo  

It's like COVID shut everything down. And I was like, "I can't even walk into a library anymore." [laughs] It was very depressing.

Jeriana  

It's depressing to live entirely through a screen, I think. And I think a lot of people are gravitated to costume design because it's a tactile process. And you have to be physically with the clothes, and with people, and creating something in that way. And... I mean, that's why I was drawn to it, certainly from from fashion design, which, you know, happened almost entirely on the computer.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Jeriana  

And I just missed the technical process of it all. And yeah... so I'm so happy to be back in libraries as well.

Jojo  

Yeah. Do you mind... this is totally a last minute question. But do you have a favorite library that you do your research at?

Jeriana  

The New York Public Library.

Jojo  

I'm just wondering, because every time I go back to New York, I'm always like checking out libraries. [laughs]

Sarah  

I wanna know, too. I love libraries.

Jeriana  

I love the New York Public Library. And the Museum of the City of New York is a great, great resource and has an incredible fashion collection, a historical fashion collection that's really wonderful.

Jojo  

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I'm sure our listeners in New York, too, will appreciate that.

Sarah  

Now I'm like, next time I go to New York, I know where I need to go. [all laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah, next time I go home, I'll have to stop by the library again.

Sarah  

Oh yeah. Libraries are great, so underappreciated. [laughs]

Jojo  

Definitely. Well, I think that's all the time we have for today. And I wish we could talk more. I'm sure all of us have lengthy things to add to our conversation today. But thank you, again, so much for joining the two of us and for making time in your very long day to come and interview with us. I know it was a lot of questions.

Sarah  

We so appreciate it.

Jojo  

But we're so excited to be able to talk about "Halston" with you.

Jeriana  

My pleasure. Truly, it just feels like like gabbing with gal pals or something. You guys are, you know... we're all in the same tribe. The costume design tribe.

Sarah  

Aww!

Jojo  

That's what we hope. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yay!

Jeriana  

Really, my pleasure, it really is. I'm happy to be here.

Sarah  

Thank you so much.

What a fun conversation this was. I loved it. [laughs]

Jojo  

So fun. Yes. Thanks, everyone. And if there's any comments or anything you want to leave for Jeriana, please feel free to hit us up on Instagram. We are actually mostly on Instagram.

Sarah  

Yup.

Jojo  

So it's great that you gave us your Instagram plug because a lot of our listeners do end up finding us through Instagram. So that's perfect.

Sarah  

Yep.

Jojo  

Thanks again, everyone.

Sarah  

Signing off.

Jojo  

And we'll see you on the next episode.

Both  

Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 23: My Fair Lady & Singin’ in the Rain

Please consult these links for accompanying images: My Fair Lady: Instagram, Pinterest Singin’ in the Rain: Instagram part 1, part 2; Pinterest

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

And I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Sarah  

All right, hello.

Jojo  

Welcome!

Sarah  

Welcome back.

Jojo  

We're back! So exciting.

Sarah  

I'm excited too. I feel like we don't have much to chat about at the top, so...

Jojo  

Nope, not today, which is nice. [both laugh]

Sarah  

No apologies. No corrections. So that's good.

Jojo  

Our life details.

Sarah  

Yeah, no life updates, really. Okay. Let's dive in. I'm ready.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

What are we calling this theme? Are we calling it old movie musicals?

Jojo  

I think we said movie musicals.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

I don't even know if we specified "old," but they just happen to both be on the older side.

Sarah  

Yeah, both of them are older. I'm really excited about that. Because that's one of my favorite things ever. I grew up watching old movie musicals like Rodgers and Hammerstein and stuff, so yay.

Jojo  

Yeah, I know.

Sarah  

Today I am covering "My Fair Lady," which is not Rodgers and Hammerstein. I know. It's one of my faves.

Jojo  

It's one of my faves too. That's what I grew up on.

Sarah  

Yes, me too. Me too. So let's see. Okay, so this movie is from 1964. It was directed by George Cukor, who also did "A Star is Born"--the original, obviously--"Gaslight," which is a good one, and "Adam's Rib." He won the Oscar for directing for this movie. And this movie won, in total, eight Oscars. So...

Jojo  

Oh my gosh, so many.

Sarah  

It was quite popular at the time. The costumes are co-designed, allegedly. So this is a weird thing. There are two designers credited on IMDB, but one of them... his profile is empty except for this movie. And on the credit, it says that he is uncredited originally in the movie.

Jojo  

Oh!

Sarah  

So like, his name is not in the credits, but it's a co-design. So I tried googling it, and I could not find any information on why that is.

Jojo  

Oh, interesting.

Sarah  

Yeah. So the main guy who was credited is Cecil Beaton, who was a very prolific designer, through... from the 30s to like... yeah, he had a really long career. He designed "Gigi," "Anna Karenina" in 1948, "An Ideal Husband"; he won two different Oscars for art direction and set decoration.

Jojo  

Ooh.

Sarah  

And then one for costume design. So he also did set decoration on this movie. So he won two Oscars for just this movie. [laughs]

Jojo  

That's crazy. So much.

Sarah  

And then... oh, no, I was mistaken. I'm sorry. He has two costume design Oscars and one art direction/set design. Sorry about that. And the uncredited guy is named Michael Neuwirth, and that's all I have about him, is that his name is Michael Neuwirth. [both laugh] There's a possibility, I thought, that maybe he was just... he was a tailor, or dressmaker or something, that had a big hand in the designs, but they didn't think he deserved the credit of it? But now we know his name.

Jojo  

Or maybe at the time Hollywood hadn't acknowledged that yet.

Sarah  

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So this is a Lerner and Loewe musical, and it is based on George Bernard Shaw's play "Pygmalion." And it's the classic story of the Eliza, who is a poor flower seller from London, who meets this linguist/language professor named Henry Higgins. And he's really arrogant, and he brags to people about how he could make her into a lady, basically, by giving her an accent makeover, essentially, and teaching her manners.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And so she's like, "yeah, I'll take that bet." And so he basically... he gives her a makeover and turns her into a lady. Julie Andrews originated this role on Broadway. And... to great acclaim. She was wonderful in it. And then when they were casting the movie, the casting of Audrey Hepburn instead of Julie was controversial, especially because Audrey doesn't do her own singing.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

But apparently the studio just wanted a more bankable name. And Julie Andrews at the time--even though now she's one of the biggest stars--she didn't have any movie experience. I think she only had stage experience.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So they were like, "sorry!" And then that same year, she got "Mary Poppins," and then she won both the Oscar and Golden Globe for "Mary Poppins." So she was like, "suck it, you guys.} [both laugh] So she ended up doing pretty good. I have a couple of tidbits from a little behind the scenes thing that was on my DVD. It was cute. It was like a little featurette that had been made at the time in the 60s. It was really cute.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So Cecil, he designed the New York Broadway and the London productions of the play. So it was kind of like a given that he would design them movie as well.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

It said that they built over 1000 costumes. And I don't know if that's pieces or entire looks. Not sure.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And they dedicated an entire stage of--I think it was Warner Brothers studio--to a makeup and wardrobe staging area for extras.

Jojo  

Wow.

Sarah  

So it had these really interesting shots of this huge studio space that is basically just like makeup tables, and wig heads, and racks and racks of clothing. And so-- because there were so many extras in the Ascot scenes and the embassy ball.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then... this is funny, there was one set costumer whose whole job... they called her the "glove girl," because all she did was make sure that everybody's gloves were spotless. [laughs]

Jojo  

That was such an important detail in that scene, though!

Sarah  

I know.

Jojo  

Or, I mean, in many scenes.

Sarah  

It showed her, and literally like she has just pairs of pairs of gloves draped over her shoulders and her arms. And she was just like, going around giving everybody gloves. [laughs]

Jojo  

Hilarious. That would be the best and easiest job.

Sarah  

I know, right?

Jojo  

I mean, I don't know about easy, but like...

Sarah  

She's like, "you need gloves?" Okay, I give you gloves. You need gloves? Okay."

Jojo  

So funny.

Sarah  

All right. So, the setting.... Oh, I have a few more little tidbits. Hopefully I don't go too long. I just found so many interesting details about this. The setting is Edwardian London, so that's 1901-1910ish. And this movie is... you can see very clearly that it was made in the 60s. So I love a period movie that was also made in what is now a period to us. So like...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...it's double period.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

It's so interesting to see how they interpreted the 1900s through a 1960s eye. And then just a couple of non-costume tidbits. Rex Harrison, who plays Henry Higgins, he declined to prerecord his musical numbers. Because he was like, "I do it differently every single time and I refuse to lip sync to myself." And he doesn't really sing. He's more of like a talk-singer.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So that kind of made sense to me, that his vocal performance would change every time he performed it. And so he was like, "I'm not gonna lip sync, so figure it out."

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And so they they fitted him with a wireless microphone, which was the first time one had been used in movies.

Jojo  

Interesting!

Sarah  

Isn't that cool?

Jojo  

That's so fascinating.

Sarah  

And he did it live every time.

Jojo  

That's great.

Sarah  

So good for him for standing his ground.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Oh, and then the sound department got an Oscar because of all of the good sound that they did.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then another... the other thing I got from Wikipedia is that the hats in the movie were created by Parisian milliner Paulette. Just one name. [laughs] Like Cher.

Jojo  

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah  

Okay,

Jojo  

That's probably why she just kept the one name.

Sarah  

I'm gonna share my screen now. And let's talk costumes.

Jojo  

Yay, our favorite part.

Sarah  

Ahh, pictures.

Jojo  

Oh, boy.

Sarah  

Oh, and JoJo and I were saying that we both have a lot of photos this week. So we're gonna see.

Jojo  

[laughs] I was just looking at all of yours.

Sarah  

I know!

Jojo  

I had the same thing. I was like, "1A, 1B, 1C..." [both laugh]

Sarah  

Okay, so this is Eliza in her first look as her flower seller. And I don't have a ton to say about this. I like the color play between the burgundy scarf and sort of the greenish coat.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Very complimentary colors.

Sarah  

Yeah. And I think the silhouette is good period wise, it's pretty much... Yeah, a fitted waist, kind of a full skirt. You know. I don't think at any point she is corseted in this movie, which I think if the movie was made now that people would care about that kind of thing. But I think that they just didn't really care in the 60s.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

They're like, "why would we make ourselves uncomfortable?"

Jojo  

Fair, that's a fair point. [laughs]

Sarah  

Okay. And then what's next here? Oh, yeah. Here's Henry, and this is the first time we meet him. And I like that he is always in browns, because everyone around him is not, and I think that they did it on purpose, but it's like he has like a uniform. And I have hardly any pictures of him, because his outfits-- he does change, but they all kind of look the same.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And I like, in this scene... this is like, out in front of the Opera House when he's telling everybody he could make her over. To the right of him are some sort of working class guys, and then to the left is Colonel Pickering in his white tie and tails.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And so he doesn't look like the rich guys or the poor guys in this scene, he just looks like himself. So I like that he's standing apart. And he's in a trilby, which... I looked up the history of trilbies. Because I was like, "were they around at this time?" Unclear. I think they were. [both laugh] Wikipedia said it was possibly invented around the turn of the century, 1900s, but reached the height of its popularity in the 60s. So that makes sense why it's in this movie.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Yeah. So if anybody has more information than that, please tell me. Okay, this is Alfred, a.k.a. Alfie, Eliza's dad.

Jojo  

I forgot about him. I mean, I didn't, but I forgot how he was dressed. [laughs]

Sarah  

His songs are my least favorite. So actually, yesterday, as I was watching I got to the end and I was like, skipping through a couple songs because I've seen it so many times. I was like, "I don't need to watch this whole song."

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And his songs, I don't love. They're just like, not my fave. So he is a dustman by trade, which I learned is just a garbage collector. I didn't know that that's what that was.

Jojo  

That's such an interesting title.

Sarah  

Yeah! Dustman. And when I was young, when I was little... I watched this movie when I was little. And I remember being fascinated by this hat.

Jojo  

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. [laughs]

Sarah  

And I used to think that it was rubber, but it's not. I think this is some sort of felted wool, and then this part that goes over his neck and shoulders is leather.

Jojo  

Oh! That makes sense, though.

Sarah  

I looked it up, and according to an article on spectator.co.uk, "a dustman's hat had flaps over the neck so that a full wicker basket or dustbin could be shouldered without stuff going down his neck." So like, he could hold it on his shoulder, basically, without garbage going into his clothes. I think.

Jojo  

I feel like "dustman" sounds so much more refined than "garbage collector." [both laugh]

Sarah  

I kind of think it does too, actually.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Yeah. And then I just kind of like the play of color and texture that he has, and pattern... he has a striped shirt, and then different shades of brown. I think his pants might be corduroy? I don't know. I think he looks good.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. It almost even looks suede.

Sarah  

Yeah, could be. Could be suede.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And it's funny to me that he wears a dustman's hat, because he says multiple times in the movie that he doesn't like to work and he intentionally stays away from working. So I'm like, "Does he still have a job?" I don't know. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Somehow.

Sarah  

He doesn't seem to ever go to work.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Okay. Oh, and then later-- I cut this picture, but later he comes back and he's had a full makeover just like Eliza. Because Henry Higgins writes this American millionaire and tells him that Alfie is a great moral philosopher, and then that guy dies and leaves him a bunch of money. So he gets rich. [both laugh]

Jojo  

I forgot about that, too.

Sarah  

Very silly. Okay.

Jojo  

So funny.

Sarah  

Okay, so this is Eliza going to meet Henry at his house to say, "yes, I would like a makeover, please." And I really love both of their outfits. Eliza's is her... clearly like her fanciest clothes.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And I think probably, in all likelihood, she probably borrowed some of it.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

She has this brown velvet jacket on with frog closures. And it looks very moth-eaten, like... worn down. And then this absolutely garish hat. [both laugh] With really... like, hot pink ostrich feathers on it. Very funny. And then I love Henry's Mr. Rogers-type outfit. Is this tie knitted...?

Jojo  

So Mr. Rogers. It looks like it might be. It's kind of hard to tell.

Sarah  

I can't tell. Yeah, that feels like a 60s touch, if it is.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I don't think knitted ties were a thing in Edwardian London. But he's got a cute little cardi on... looking good. Okay, so let's talk about Eliza post makeover. Here's this dress. This is her... it's kind of purple, kind of gray. I really like the scallop shape that it has in the hem and in this sort of neckline/bib thing. It looks very schoolgirl, girlish, young. And she also has a giant bow in the back of her hair too, which just makes her look even younger. So I find that very interesting, that like... I guess it's like, at this point--well, at all the points we see--these are outfits that probably Henry has picked out for her. Because I don't think that she...

Jojo  

Knows how to dress yet. [laughs]

Sarah  

...is in charge of what she's wearing. Yeah, maybe his housekeeper Mrs. Pierce helped him pick some stuff out. I don't know.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. It also feels like a reversion to her being very young, because she is learning from scratch, almost.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

You know, like a school girl. So I think there's an interesting play on what the costume designer is trying to say about that.

Sarah  

Yeah. And she is... as a character, she is quite immature at this point in the movie. I mean, she's also being mistreated. I should say that this movie is-- he is not nice to her at all.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

For like, the first 80% of the movie. He's arrogant, and he basically-- I forgot that he basically is starving her. They're like, "Oh, he makes her work through meals. Oh my gosh." And she's like, so hungry the whole time. And that bums me out. Just give her some food! Okay.

Jojo  

Please feed her.

Sarah  

Oh, and I love this dress.

Jojo  

Mmm, one of my favorites.

Sarah  

This is the green one she wears for the "Rain in Spain" scene and in the "I Could Have Danced All Night." And this is a much less girlish look. And that makes sense because "The Rain in Spain" is the scene where she finally clicks, and the accent finally goes away, and she sounds like a lady now.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

It has these pretty flowers on the side of this belt. And then it's just like, clearly yards and yards of whatever this fabric is.

Jojo  

It's beautiful.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

It's got a nice reflection too.

Sarah  

Yeah. And I like the high collar on the blouse. Oh, it's just so lovely. All of it's lovely. All right. Now the main event. Ascot, here we are. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Ugh, my favorite.

Sarah  

I love this scene. So I have some notes. So this is... like, this scene is a very intentional mix of Edwardian fashion and 60s haute couture. So they took a lot of inspiration from like, high-high fashion in the 60s. And I looked it up, and Cecil was inspired by the "Black Ascot," which happened in 1910 after the death of Edward VII, when everybody who attended was wearing black.

Jojo  

Ahh.

Sarah  

Because Ascot didn't actually have a color dress code. It definitely has a dress code even now, today.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Like, if you sit in the Royal box, you have to wear a top hat if you're a guy and you have to wear some sort of headpiece, hat, or fascinator if you're a woman. So that's interesting.

Jojo  

I did not know that.

Sarah  

Yeah! I have a picture of  real people at Ascot. I love this picture.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah. Oh, it's so pretty. I know.

Sarah  

So that's... I mean, obviously, it's black and white. So we don't know what color they're wearing. But yeah, so that's some real ladies who are at Ascot in the time period. So you can kind of see what the period silhouette is meant to be.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

It was definitely a full bosom. I don't know if this is S-curve, I forgot to look up the actual silhouette of the 1910s.

Jojo  

1910s... itt would have been the Gibson girl and S-curve.

Sarah  

That's what I was thinking.

Jojo  

Or like, just riding out of it.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So yeah. So back to the film. Here we are. Love it. Everybody is in black, white, and gray, which makes for a very striking visual on the screen. This one-- this hat right here, on this lady, I always think looks like a mascara wand. [laughs]

Jojo  

You're totally right. I think that's what I thought when I watched it the first time too.

Sarah  

Yeah. [laughs] Oh, gosh.

Jojo  

So funny.

Sarah  

And then here's a picture of Henry talking to his mother. And then he obviously is still wearing his same sort of tweed brown suit.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And it makes-- obviously, he stands out immediately on screen because he refuses to dress in the, you know, in the dress code. And his mom's like, "couldn't you have dressed up?" and he's like, "I changed my shirt." So he doesn't care. He does not care. Here's a sketch of the scene by Cecil... I think by Cecil?

Jojo  

Ugh, so beautiful.

Sarah  

I know, right?

Jojo  

So much detail.

Sarah  

I know. It's gorgeous. And then here's Eliza, in the classic... her classic gown that we all know.

Jojo  

It's so beautiful.

Sarah  

So according to an auction website when this dress was auctioned off, it is constructed of a silk linen undergarment, overlaid with a fine lace which is hand embroidered in a delicate flower motif.

Jojo  

Oh my goodness.

Sarah  

Trimmed in black velvet striped ribbon. And the large picture hat is constructed of a lightweight cotton burlap. I think that must be the fabric covering it, because burlap is not...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...the structure part of hats.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

That's fabric. Trimmed in black velvet with white and black ostrich feathers as well as a small sprig of faux lavender pansies. And it sold in 2011 for $4.4 million. [laughs]

Jojo  

Oh gosh. I mean, I'm not at all surprised. But that's crazy.

Sarah  

If I had that much money, that's the kind of stuff I'd be buying. [both laugh] Audrey Hepburn stuff.

Jojo  

You wouldn't even be wearing it, it would just go into a museum case in your house.

Sarah  

It would fit me on like, one of my thighs. This would not go on my body. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Oh man, what a beautiful dress though.

Sarah  

I know, it's stunning. And it's... so it's not Edwardian, it's... you can see sort of the period inspiration.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

But it's very form fitting and sexy, even though she's completely covered. She's not showing any skin. It's really hugging her curves in a way that period clothing just didn't do. But that doesn't mean that it's not successful or good design because it's freakin' amazing.

Jojo  

Yeah. It reminds me of a lot of modern day wedding dresses, actually.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah. I mean, people are doing long sleeves right now.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah. Or even just that lace, kind of fitted with the mermaid trumpet.

Sarah  

Mermaid. Yeah.

Jojo  

So it definitely looks very much like that.

Sarah  

Here's a sketch of it.

Jojo  

So beautiful.

Sarah  

Love.

Jojo  

It's very charming. I like his illustrations.

Sarah  

Me too. I had more and I had to get rid of them. Maybe I'll put them up on Pinterest.

Jojo  

It's hard to filter.

Sarah  

Here's a close up so we can see her little hat... like, the little bonnet on one side that kind of holds it on, and then the flowers and stuff. Love, love this scene.

Jojo  

So beautiful.

Sarah  

Okay, and so I have some bonus pictures here...

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

...that will go up on Pinterest, or people can also just Google it. It's easy to find. But let's see. According to frockflicks.com, which was a helpful website, when Audrey Hepburn arrived at the studio for her first meeting with Cecil Beaton, she was so impressed with his costumes she insisted on trying on many of the extras' gowns, complaining that Eliza didn't get enough pretty clothes. Which is funny, because she gets a lot of pretty clothes. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah, she does.

Sarah  

And as a result, Beaton arranged with Warner to spend two days photographing her in many of the women's costumes. And these pictures ended up in the book "Cecil Beaton's Fair Lady," which was sort of like his backstage diaries and photos. So I have pictures of Audrey in these Ascot gowns.

Jojo  

Ahh, I love it! Oh, my goodness.

Sarah  

And they're so beautiful.

Jojo  

Yeah, she just look stunning in all of them.

Sarah  

I know. This one is like, vinyl or something on the bottom.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So cool. Oh, and the sleeves too.

Jojo  

Ooh, and with that backdrop.

Sarah  

Gorgeous.

Jojo  

Love it.

Sarah  

Amazing. Oh, that's it. I only kept three. There's more.

Jojo  

Still, though, I mean, just so elegant.

Sarah  

Yeah. And you can see, this one-- I kept this one because I kept... let's see. This is the gown. Yup.

Jojo  

I was gonna say, I remember the girl that was wearing it. Yeah.

Sarah  

So I just think that's so... she's like, she's Audrey Hepburn.

Jojo  

It's kinda sad 'cuz it's like, who wore it better? And like, obviously, Audrey did. [both laugh]

Sarah  

I mean, yeah, you can't really compete with Audrey Hepburn, no matter who you are.

Jojo  

It's true.

Sarah  

She's... yeah, I'm glad these photos exist, and when I was googling-- you know, Google imaging "My Fair Lady," these were coming up and I was like, "she doesn't wear those outfits. What are those from?" So I'm glad that we now know what those are from.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

All right. Okay, here is the embassy ball outfit. Which is another classic.

Jojo  

One of my favorites. So beautiful.

Sarah  

Frock Flicks... I learned a lot about this scene from the Frock Flicks website. It was just like a blog.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And this person was like, "this is the kind of the scene where the 1960s of it goes a little bit off the rails." Because like, there's a lot of lurex and lamé. And sort of like, very classic 60s fabrics and colors...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...that don't look at all Edwardian. But I think it's kind of like, he was just having a lot of fun. And he was like, "it's a crowd scene. I can put whatever I want in it."

Jojo  

Well, and this is her shining moment.

Sarah  

Yeah, and she definitely stands out because she's wearing all white, and pretty much nobody else is doing that.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

This is another outfit where you can see the period inspiration, but it's just a little bit off from it. So like, she has a sheath dress that is very form fitting once again, and kind of just skims her body. And then over it is a very loose, sort of chiffon with lots of beading and all sorts of stuff, rhinestones probably.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So you can see that it's supposed to be period, but it's just not quite the right period for this.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And then the hair is so 60s, but it's also so beautiful. I think it works. Edwardian hair was definitely-- this is very shiny and sort of hairsprayed, and the volume goes almost vertical on her head.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

In like, a bouffant. And then, so Edwardian updos were a lot softer and more romantic, and the volume would be on the back of your head and not necessarily standing straight up.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

I did look at some examples so that I could sound like I knew what I was talking about. [both laugh] And then... oh, this is her and Henry coming home. And I got this because I love this sort of...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...it's like a red velvet robe that she wears over it.

Jojo  

So beautiful.

Sarah  

Gorgeous. Oh, and then this necklace, I mean, come on. Look at that.

Jojo  

It looks like it's just floating on her.

Sarah  

I know, it's...

Jojo  

How is that held up?

Sarah  

I mean, she has a gorgeous neck and clavicle. So like, I can see why they emphasized it with a necklace like this. And I have a couple of shots of other people from the embassy, so we can talk about what I'm-- see what I'm talking about, with the colors and the 60s-ness. This is... I think she's the... is she the Queen of Transylvania? I can't remember. She's from Transylvania. [laughs] But her dress is basically like, tiered fringe, which is like... okay, that's a choice.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then I have a shot of a lady in the crowd. Like, look at this fabric. It's so 60s.

Jojo  

Definitely.

Sarah  

And then this lady to her right in the background is wearing a full lamé robe. So...

Jojo  

Yep. Definitely not 1910s fabric.

Sarah  

No, not at all. [both laugh] And then lastly... I have two more outfits. I mostly focused on Eliza just because she wears the best clothes.

Jojo  

Because her stuff is stunning.

Sarah  

Yeah. This is arguably her most period accurate outfit, according to Frock Flicks, and I would agree.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Because there are a lot of examples of illustrations--fashion plates--of the time that have jackets like this. It's the peach outfit that she wears to try to run away.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Oh, she does run away. She runs to Professor Higgins's mom's house, but it's this cute little jacket that has these points.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then it's like a walking skirt. It's really cute. This is her with Freddie.

Jojo  

Ahh, Freddie. [laughs]

Sarah  

I know, poor Freddie. [laughs] He's very handsome. Very dashing.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Do I have anything else to say about it? I kind of stopped taking notes at some point. Yeah, I don't have any notes on it.

Jojo  

[laughs] I kinda did the same thing. Like, "alright, I think I'm done now."

Sarah  

And then last is her pink outfit. And I also made sure to include Henry's mom in the shot because I love this outfit on Henry's mom.

Jojo  

Yes, I love that too, it looks so good. Those are two of my favorite colors too.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

It's like that really muted teal. But then also the really pale kind of lavender-gray. I think it's a beautiful combination together.

Sarah  

Uh huh. And just like a bright yellow huge necklace.

Jojo  

Yep.

Sarah  

And this over-- this is like a cocoon coat, almost, it's very drapey. I love.

Jojo  

It's almost 1920s.

Sarah  

Yeah, and she is-- well, that doesn't make any sense. [laughs] I was like, "she's older, so--" no, that's still doesn't... 'cuz 20s would still be the future.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Yeah, I don't know.

Jojo  

She's a very fashion forward older person. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Yes. I don't know what that inspiration was.

Jojo  

Well before her time, I guess.

Sarah  

Yeah, she's ahead of the curve. She knows what's up. And then this is Eliza's pink dress. Very cute. Very pretty. And then I have a picture of a promo shot of her in it.

Jojo  

Oh, so beautiful.

Sarah  

I know. I love how romantic this one is.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. You're right. They really do emphasize her neck and her decolletage quite a bit. I mean, with all of her outfits.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, as we discussed in the "Roman Holiday" episode, she was a dancer so she has this very elegant way of carrying herself and it definitely-- she has a very long, elegant neck.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So... I mean, yeah.

Jojo  

So beautiful.

Sarah  

I think this must be silk organza.

Jojo  

Yeah, looks like it.

Sarah  

Because of the way that it... organza has a lovely bounciness to it when you gather it and stuff.

Jojo  

A flounce.

Sarah  

Yeah. Oh my gosh. 3, 2, 1... timer goes off! [short alarm sound] Dang! Great job, me. Okay. That's it.

Jojo  

Right on time, Sarah!

Sarah  

That's "My Fair Lady."

Both  

Yay!

Jojo  

That's not even covering half of the beautiful costumes in there. It's so crazy how much we have to filter.

Sarah  

I know. Well, I mean, I think back to like, our first episode when I did "Moulin Rouge" and I was like, "okay," like, I think I picked five costumes to talk about or something. It's just like, I don't have that kind of self control anymore.

Jojo  

[laughs] It's too hard. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie cut out entire scenes for "Singin' in the Rain." Cuz I was like, these are beautiful costumes, but I can't talk about them.

Sarah  

Yeah, if this was an exhaustive coverage, we would do one episode per movie, but we like it to be light and conversational.

Jojo  

Yeah. Definitely. All right. Well, thanks, Sarah. That was fun.

Sarah  

You're welcome.

Jojo  

It's nice to go back in time to a movie I haven't seen in a while.

Sarah  

Oh, and they just added that to Netflix. So...

Jojo  

Yes, I did see that.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Exciting.

Sarah  

I love it when they add my favorites.

Jojo  

Okay. So I'm going to be covering "Singin' in the Rain." It was premiered in 1952. So a little earlier than "My Fair Lady." And it was actually co directed--so this was two directors now, instead of two costume designers--by Stanley Donen, who also did quite a lot of work with... ironically with Audrey Hepburn.

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

He did "Charade," "Funny Face," which are two of her bigger known films. And he also did "Two for the Road," "Damn Yankees," and also "The Pajama Game." So he's done some other big musical movies. So I think that definitely helped him in this case.

Sarah  

I love "The Pajama Game."

Jojo  

And then Gene Kelly was actually the other director, who I didn't really write any things down, because we know him mostly as a dancer, singer, actor.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And it was actually interesting, because there were a couple... I went kind of down a deep rabbit hole through some of the other actors and their comments on like, working with Gene Kelly.

Sarah  

Ooh.

Jojo  

And I think one of the other-- the guy who played Cosmo, I did not write down his name for some silly reason. But he ended up actually mentioning that it was really hard to work under Gene Kelly as a director, because he was kind of a tyrant on set. [laughs] I was like, "I can kind of see that."

Sarah  

I've heard that. Yeah.

Jojo  

You know, he's got such a big personality already, even as an actor, so I'm sure as a directing role, I'm sure it would have been 10 times more. So...

Sarah  

Yeah, I also think-- I mean, I know that there are a lot of famous people who are jerks nowadays, too. But I do think that back then, it was even more common and accepted for them to just be... because they're artistic geniuses, you know, so they can behave however they want, and people let them get away with it.

Jojo  

Yeah, so I thought that was interesting. So I didn't really have too many of his credits down just because... we'll be talking about his role in the movie as an actor, because he also acted in this movie. So.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

The costume designer, of course, for this was Walter Plunkett, who most of his work-- well, he was alive from 1902-1982. But his work has also been very well renowned... whatever the right pronunciation of that word is.

Sarah  

Renowned, you got it.

Jojo  

He also did "An American in Paris," which was the other movie I was going to cover, but did not. He did "Stagecoach," "Forbidden Planet," "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers," which was also done...

Sarah  

Oh my god, I love that movie.

Jojo  

I actually haven't seen it before. But I've kept hearing about it.

Sarah  

It's wild. [laughs]

Jojo  

I think he also did that with either Gene Kelly or Stanley. I can't remember which one. I think Stanley Donen also directed for that one. He also did "Kiss Me, Kate," the original. And then he also was well known for "Gone with the Wind."

Sarah  

Oh, yeah.

Jojo  

So his costumes are really incredible. So interestingly enough, just some fun facts about his background as a costume designer, he actually launched RKO Wardrobe Department, which I guess was... I didn't do enough research on what RKO actually was. But I'm assuming it was very similar to kind of like a Western, where it kind of was a costume department as well as a place where they could tailor and build.

Sarah  

Maybe... I thought RKO was a studio.

Jojo  

Might have been a studio. I don't know, that was my fault for not researching that more. But that was formed in 1927. And his aunt was actually the head cutter/fitter at that time.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, it was a studio.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So he probably just founded their... in addition to having a studio, they now have a costume house.

Jojo  

Yeah. Which I think is so cool.

Sarah  

It is cool.

Jojo  

But interestingly enough, in relation to this movie, in particular, the costumes were actually a redesign of looks that he had come up with 25 years prior to this movie. So it would have been around like the 1930s, around the time that he had just recently launched RKO.

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

So the movie itself is actually set in the 1920s. So you'll see a lot of the 1920s silhouette. But one of the things that I thought was so interesting is that the fashion in this movie--just because of Walter Plunkett and what he designed--actually became kind of the Hollywood extreme of what was worn at that time, and kind of what we today associate with the 1920s.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

It's that very glitz-and-glam, and kind of over-the-top, over exaggerated, over decorated surfaces. But that was something that I think Walter Plunkett had a lot of influence on at this time, because of what he designed in American-- I mean, sorry, in "Singin' in the Rain." And also a lot of these looks have become so iconic because of our association with "Singin' in the Rain." So I just thought that was really cool.

Sarah  

Absolutely.

Jojo  

Where you do start seeing a little bit of a period--where we were talking about like, a double period--in this movie, which I thought was so funny that you also mentioned that. You definitely see much more 1950s hairstyles, I think, in this movie.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

So even though they're wearing 1920s, I think that was where I was a little confused at first. Because I was like, "Oh, this is totally set in the 1950s." And then I was like, "wait, no, it's not." [both laugh] So yeah, I just-- a lot of the pictures I don't have a ton of notes on, but I did want to just kind of look at just the beauty of what he designed, and sort of the sensitivities that he had to all the different body types too. And I think he did that really well. And I kind of went in order, but also did a little bit by character, so just depending.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Okay, so I'll start off with the opening scene, and kind of to give you a little bit of a summary... I mean, there's a lot happening in this movie. So it's kind of all over the place. But the main premise of the story is that Don Lockwood is basically this kind of down and out actor who ends up making it big somehow. He starts off as a stuntman and then ends up in the movies. So he's become this big name for silent films. So because we're in the 1920s, this is sort of the era of we're still exiting the silent films, and we're just entering the first what they call "talkies," where their far... where they're first... Wow, I almost said "farting." [both laugh] Where they're first finally starting to introduce talking on the camera, and recording, and this is where sound is starting to come in. They're actually building music in. And so you know, it's that transition of Hollywood trying to figure out how to move from silent films, where you don't need to worry so much about your talking and singing ability, versus actually being able to sing and dance and do all of those other things. And of course, he ends up meeting this big movie star celebrity, Lina Lamont, who's played by Jean Hagen, and she's this horribly stuck up celebrity actress who has a horrible, horrible nasal voice. And has been his sort of love interest on screen for all this time, but is not actually his love interest in real life. But she's got this idea in her head that they're secretly fiances, even though he's openly told her multiple times that he does not have any kind of relationship like that with her. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Oh boy.

Jojo  

So it starts off with them entering on the red carpet, introducing one of their newest silent films. And so they're about to go watch their premiere. And of course, it kind of shows all these different scenes of different celebrities showing up to see the premiere. And then of course, Don Lockwood goes into his flashback of how he started. And then the premise of the movie follows actually his sort of boy-meets-girl story, where he ends up meeting this small dancer who ends up being one of the first to kind of criticize his acting career sort of in a very blunt but playful way. So he ends up obviously falling in love with her, and they start a relationship, and she ends up having this beautiful voice. So of course when they move to talkies-- speaking of people who sing for other actors, like an Audrey situation, this became one of those situations where she ends up being the voice--and the singing voice--of Lina Lamont, because they can't stand to hear her voice on the screen.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

So, of course, the first scene that I-- or the first couple of looks that I wanted to focus on was actually the red carpet. Again, totally random celebrities that don't really appear later. But I just thought their outfits were incredible. We have Rita Moreno who actually played the original "West Side Story"'s Anita, she played Zelda Zanders.

Sarah  

Ahh.

Jojo  

Again, not important, you don't really need to know that name. But I just love this dress. And she's actually got-- it's a jacket with a giant silver bow on it with all these layers of like, ruffled fur/feathers? And then this is the front of her dress.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

So like, it's just so over the top. And again, another reason why this movie talked a lot about how most of these costumes are not what they were wearing on a daily basis in the 20s. It was the extreme Hollywood over the top version.

Sarah  

Right. Yeah.

Jojo  

So yes, I just thought that was beautiful.

Sarah  

It's beautiful.

Jojo  

And then we have our Olga Mara. Again, she's not an important character to the script, but played by Judy Langdon... Sorry, Landon. And I just love this kind of spider web motif that she's got going on here in the middle.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And she actually comes out covered and then she just like, opens this cape, and then you just see the beautiful dress underneath. And I love that there's this green lining in there. Because I think there was... because of Technicolor being so big in the 1950s, I thought that's where you can see a lot of the small details that I think Walter Plunkett threw in, even though it's the 1920s. This was Don and Lina's first appearance, and they're in all white. So it really makes them stand out when they approach the red carpet.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And then just to get a little closer image of Lina's dress, just, you know... again, it's all those stereotype tropes of the 1920s. We've got the fringe. We've got the kind of shapeless sort of square rectangular body. Even, like... it's kind of weird to me because it's not quite a straight band, but they would wear in the 1920s. It's like, mixed in on the side with...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...with a very 1950s curl.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So yeah, I just thought that was interesting. But I thought this was a good kind of combination of how he was able to really match the period. And still give it beauty, I guess. I think he mentioned-- there was a quote that I wrote from him, was that "Singin' in the Rain"--even though he had just done "Gone with the Wind," which is a humongous feat--he said, "'Singin' in the Rain' was the most work I've ever done." Because he had to design-- and again, this is something that we talk a lot about with theatre, whenever you're having to design for musicals, you have to think more about not just the wearability and how beautiful it looks. But also, can they dance in it? Can they move in it? Can they do all their stretches, and splits and all those other things. And so him trying to design for a lot of these rigorous dance numbers, which was a huge part of this film, in addition to a whole scene that was just done in the rain.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh, yeah.

Jojo  

He was like-- that was a huge feat. And then I also wrote down that he had almost 500 costumes total for this movie, which... 500 seems like still so little, based on all of the costumes that I saw in this movie. I was like, "I still feel like there's more." But you know, who knows?

Sarah  

[laughs]

Jojo  

Anyways, so that's the red carpet. Then I wanted to do a quick shot of the outfits for Roscoe Dexter, who is the director that kind of first makes Don big. He ends up taking the place of an old stuntman who basically passes out during a stunt. And so he offers to step in as the new stuntman and basically ends up being abused. And, you know, the new director loves him for everything that he does, because he's just willing to do whatever it takes.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I just wanted to focus in on this look, because I just... I don't really have notes. I just love it. I think it's, you know, it showcases-- I mean, obviously a very over exaggerated 1920s news cap. But even the jodhpurs that were kind of on the tail end of the early 1900s and into the 1920s. I think of ...what's the movie? The movie's called "W.E.," but it focuses on one of the Dukes of Windsor, I think.

Sarah  

Uh huh.

Jojo  

And this was such a big look for him in that time... era. So I just thought it was a kind of nice-- I don't know if that was intentional or not. But yeah, it's just so ridiculous that this is what the director at this time would wear. And a lot of his looks are very similar to this with the kind of jodhpur pant. And then the longer blazer,

Sarah  

It is funny when like, equestrian wear becomes fashion. Yeah, I don't exactly know when that was either. But I do know that it was definitely a thing.

Jojo  

Yeah. And it's kind of this combination between what they call plus-fours, which was almost like...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...a longer version of this, where the drop would have been closer to the mid calf.

Sarah  

Sure, yeah.

Jojo  

And you do see that in some of the later looks. But I just thought this was an interesting characterization to set apart the director, because he's in a lot of this particular silhouette. So again, I just I think this was a really good way to kind of meet the period. I think one thing they mentioned was that he really had to design for a period that a lot of audience members remembered because they had lived through it.

Sarah  

Mmm, right.

Jojo  

And so he was saying that was one of the hardest things, is that he had to try and make it look realistic but also still be heightened and beautiful enough to kind of match the pace of of a musical. Okay, so first appearance of Lina. This is his flashback still, where he first meets Lina. And I just-- I don't know, again, I don't have a lot of notes on a lot of these looks. I just think this look is so great. It's like this beautiful kind of lavender, bubblegum pink. But then she's got this lace thing on top. And it's also got an Elizabethan sort of stand up collar.

Sarah  

Uh huh.

Jojo  

And it was interesting because they were talking about the lounge chair that she's on. And this was because at this time, they didn't necessarily have access to steamers and irons. So this was their way of preserving the costume from getting super wrinkled on set. And I was like, "that's genius!"

Sarah  

I think they call them leaning boards.

Jojo  

Oh yeah, Yeah, probably.

Sarah  

I think. And those those kinds of things are still used in, like... if you're really heavily corseted, and in something that's not easy to sit in. Yeah.

Jojo  

Yeah, that's so fascinating to me. I just thought it was funny that they showcased this and she's just sitting there.

Sarah  

Yeah. Looks comfy.

Jojo  

And of course she doesn't want to have anything to do with Don when he first approaches her, because he's still a stuntman. But then once he meets one of the producers of the movie, and they realize that he's got a lot of potential and got a lot of talent. So they reach out to him and basically try to offer him a bigger part. And then all of a sudden, she starts changing her tune and starts trying to like, suck up to him.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Which, you know, that says a lot about her personality throughout this entire movie.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Okay, so then, his first meeting with Kathy Selden, who's played by Debbie Reynolds. And she's our leading lady, of course. I couldn't get really a full shot of this. But I thought this was, again, a very good combination of kind of the 1950s as well as the 1920s. Because I think the suit itself looks much more 1920s to me. I think the hat is still kind of like a weird combination of... almost like it was trying to be a cloche, but it's a little bit more 1950s styling.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I just thought that was interesting. She's very cute. And again, I love that they kind of put her in this mousy brown when he first meets her, because she seems like a very shy, kind of naive... doesn't really speak up at first. And he ends up jumping into her car 'cuz he gets approached by all these fans. And so that's why his tux is all ripped, because they're all trying to grab on him.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So he ends up jumping into her car seat while she's driving. So of course, she's terrified. But again, this kind of contrast between the two of them, like how... even though he's got a ripped suit on, how nicely dressed and elegant he is. And then kind of her being in this very plain, and sort of plain Jane, color.

Sarah  

Yeah. Dirty dishwater kind of color.

Jojo  

Exactly. And then that, of course, contrasts to when she appears at the party that he's at later, where she is one of a group of dancers. And this is right after she's kind of insulted him about acting and how she thinks that, you know, he doesn't really need to do much work. Like, an actual actor has proper lines and has to learn how to dance and do all these other things. And then she lies about basically her having only seen one of his movies, because she realizes he's trying to hit on her.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So she very bluntly kind of kicks him out of her car. But then she reappears at the party that he's at later, showing up in this beautiful little bubblegum pink kind of romper/jumpsuit. And I just wanted to show this drawing that Walter Plunkett made of her.

Sarah  

That's great.

Jojo  

And it's interesting because they carried these baskets on the side, but it almost looks like it's part of the costume.

Sarah  

That's what I was thinking.

Jojo  

But she actually keeps grabbing stuff out of it and throwing stuff. So here's the picture of the actual thing. But like, look, it almost looks like it's connected to her pants/skirt.

Sarah  

It is. Yeah.

Jojo  

But then there's an actual basket portion of it. That looks like she's throwing stuff out of it as she's walking around.

Sarah  

It looks like it's almost like a an exaggerated pocket. That looks like a basket.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sarah  

That's so cool.

Jojo  

But it also has like a strap across the front. So it's like, also a purse?

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

I don't know. It's a very-- I just thought it was really creative. And like, all the girls have this. So I just thought it was interesting that he almost combined... like, it's almost like a swimming suit kind of look with this basket. Functional basket.

Sarah  

That's awesome.

Jojo  

So yes, anyways, I just thought it was beautiful. I don't know. No other notes. [laughs]

Sarah  

It is.

Jojo  

And then this is just like a group shot of all of them.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, it's totally part of it. Because the strap is like... it looks like it's just made of bias tape or something attached to the...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

That's so cool!

Jojo  

And it's like, built into the actual costume. So I just thought that was really cool.

Sarah  

That's adorable.

Jojo  

They also have this weird muff on one arm that they eventually throw off into the audience. But I just thought that was a cute little feature as well. So then these are the plus-fours that I was talking about earlier, that kind of over exaggerated... Like, it's a very young collegiate look, I think, from the time. And he wears a lot of this, where it's like the kind of matching two piece suit with the matching news cap. And then he's always got some sort of a really nice sweater vest underneath. Which, you know, again, he's a very important actor at this point. He's risen up in the ranks. And so like, I just love that that's the way he still chooses to dress. It's not like, over the top or stuffy, it's him being comfortable for this time period. I also just thought this was interesting, and I wanted to include this random costume here because like... I mean, this is one of the extra things that Walter Plunkett probably had to think about. But again, yet another costume that is just so far fetched and out there.

Sarah  

Yeah, that's funny.

Jojo  

Okay, and then I wanted to really quickly touch on his friend Cosmo Brown. His father was actually a vaudeville actor. And so he kind of grew up in that vaudeville tradition, and a lot of his numbers are very much sort of the second-tier funnyman. He's kind of the comic relief. And you can definitely see that reflected in the outfit. I love that they-- in this particular scene, he's dressed in such plain and kind of drab colors. And it's in such contrast to what he does in his scene, because he does a whole dance where he's like, down on his knees, and he's sliding across the floor. And like, tripping all over himself. It's very-- he has a lot of Fosse movements, but it's not quite Fosse. It's also him-- just a lot of kind of slapstick humor, where he's just sort of tripping over himself. Even the way that he kind of bends the hat brim, just sort of tells us a lot about his character.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And then I also love that he's almost got-- it's not quite a Members Only jacket...

Sarah  

[laughs] Yeah.

Jojo  

...which is very 1950s. But like, I think I was also thrown off because it's a little too long for the 1920s. But you can see where the influence of the Members Only jacket comes in from the 1950s.

Sarah  

Were Members Only jackets from the 50s?

Jojo  

I think they were more worn in the 50s.

Sarah  

I didn't know that.

Jojo  

At least that's when I kind of was seeing a lot of them. I mean, they probably existed a little bit before that, but I think that was when they were kind of at the height of when they were worn.

Sarah  

I associate them with like, the 80s.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah, they definitely came back in the 80s, too. But you see a lot of them...

Sarah  

I do think the 80s... yeah, the 80s and the 50s have a lot in common.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah. I mean, they say you recycle everything about every 30 years. So it makes sense.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

That tracks. Okay...

Sarah  

Let's see. I just googled it. The brand Members Only was created in 1975.

Jojo  

Oh, really?

Sarah  

But I feel like it definitely was echoing a...

Jojo  

Maybe that shape.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Maybe I'm thinking of that shape. Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah, style of jacket. That was common in the 50s. For sure. Okay, now we know. Interesting.

Jojo  

Thanks, Sarah. Always learning new things, even on our own podcast. [laughs]

Sarah  

Exactly. That's, I mean... why else are we here?

Jojo  

That's true.

Sarah  

You know, to have fun and to learn. [both laugh]

Jojo  

So just a couple other shots. I mean, you can see he's on the floor quite a bit. And ...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...this is just one of.. I think this... I also pulled this just because Walter Plunkett talks so much about how rigorous it was to create costumes that needed to hold up to all the wear and tear. And I thought this was a perfect example of that, because he really does slide across the floor on these pants and like, does all kinds of stuff. And I'm like, man, I don't know what those pants are made out of. But they made it, they survived somehow. [laughs]

Sarah  

It's always our worst nightmare when someone's like, "so he has to crawl across the floor. And then he has to slide on his knees." We're like, "Oh, crap!" [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah. Or he's like, walking over some really untouched surface-- like, wood surface, where there's just gonna be things ripping it up.

Sarah  

Oh, god.

Jojo  

That's always the worst. So then, there... I wanted to try and grab a group shot of this. And you know, this is probably about a month or so later. So after the whole moment where he sees... sorry, where Don sees Kathy dancing in the bubblegum outfit, he loses contact with her for three weeks. And then he finds out that Lina actually has banned this girl from the studio, because she does not like the competition, has realized that Don has kind of a thing for her. And so has become very jealous and basically has a little too much power in the studio, in other words. Somehow she ends up coming back to the studio by word of someone else. And so the producer ends up seeing her as one of the dancers. And you can see her right here, second to the right. And she becomes part of this big number where they end up... Oh, it becomes a "fashion montage," is what I wrote, called "Beautiful Girls."

Sarah  

Ahhh.

Jojo  

And so the main singer at the front is basically talking about all these beautiful women in his life. And then of course, there's a whole little moment where there's these individual shots of these women in different fashionable trends of the time. So I wanted to pull this just to sort of showcase some of the different fashions that Walter Plunkett designed for this, which I just love. Again, it shows kind of the height of extreme in the 1920s. But I just love how beautiful they've he's made all of these dresses, look at how flattering it still is on all of these actresses. I particularly like this dress in the back.

Sarah  

Ooh!

Jojo  

'Cuz it's just like, it's so shiny, but also it just flows really well on her and it just sits really nice on her. And then he also had a couple wedding dress options. I think there's also one that appears later in another montage... ensemble montage.

Sarah  

Cute.

Jojo  

So yes, so it just kind of shows you, again, the vast number of costumes that he had to make for this this movie, but also just the variety of different styles in the 1920s, of what was considered Hollywood trends. Then this is when Don finally sees Kathy again. He sees her as one of the dancers, and of course he tries to sneak in and basically say, "we need to keep hiring her." And this is their little special moment where he ends up kind of reuniting with her and apologizing to her. So I just thought this was a really beautiful scene, he actually brings her into the studio and turns on the lights and the fog machine and creates this beautiful backdrop. And then they have this really lovely kind of duet dance together. So I wanted to focus on a couple of these scenes, because, to me, this was also a perfect way to describe the relationship between sound and costumes.

Sarah  

[laughs]

Jojo  

And again, because this is the first time they're doing a talkie, they suddenly have to incorporate, you know, the microphone into the scene, because they need to be able to hear her speak and catch the audio.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And of course, Lina being the stubborn person she is does not understand what that means. And so this is the director being super frustrated with her, trying to tell her where the mic is. And it's not working because she keeps swinging her head back and forth while she's talking to the microphone, and not talking into the microphone. And I wanted to pull this, and the next shot as well, because you just see a quick shot of the costumer literally running to set attaching-- like, literally sewing on set this gigantic flower to hide the gigantic microphone that they now have to hide in her dress. And it starts off at her heart because they want to put it, obviously, in a place where she'll talk into, but then they realize they keep hearing her heartbeat. So then they have to move it to her shoulder. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

And you just see the same costumer run back and reattach the big flower piece onto the side of the shoulder so that they can hide. And you can see the giant microphone here...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...that the director has pulled out. I just thought that was a hilarious moment. And I wanted to capture that because that is...

Sarah  

It's a very funny scene.

Jojo  

...very apropos of sometimes how I feel when we're dealing with microphones and costumes. Even in a theatre show.

Sarah  

The struggle of the mic pack... they are the bane of my existence. I'm just like, "Ugh!"

Jojo  

It's so true. Like, where to put it? Where is it not going to show up? Where is it not going to have a giant square on the outside of the costume? [laughs]

Sarah  

"Oh, I roll on my back in this scene."

Jojo  

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah  

"I have to strap it to my thigh," oh my god.

Jojo  

Right. Or is it like, under the arm so that it doesn't hit anywhere else?

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

Yeah, but anyways, I just thought this was such a good moment for them to capture because it really is something that still haunts us today. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So then there's a little moment where... after their first premiere to the public of their first talkie goes horribly wrong. So they come up with this idea for him to pitch a musical for the talkie, instead of trying to do a straight talking show. Then of course, there's the iconic scene, which is what this movie is called: "Singin' in the Rain."

Sarah  

[laughs] Yes.

Jojo  

And this is that moment where Walter Plunkett talked a lot about how much he had to make this costume for movement, as well as holding up to the rain. Because...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...literally, Gene Kelly just sings this entire song just in pouring rain, and he gets soaking wet.

Sarah  

Yep.

Jojo  

But again, I wanted to focus on the fact that again, it's a Norfolk jacket, which is very of the time period, obviously. They kind of paired it with a very 1950s hat. And again, I feel like everything from the head up was very 1950s.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And everything from kind of the neck down was very 1920s. But I think it works pretty well. And with this suit, I think he looks very snazzy either way.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

For a modern eye who's just blending all the periods together nowadays, I think this was a really successful way to kind of tie all of that in and still make him look, you know, dashing and charming.

Sarah  

Right. Iconic.

Jojo  

Just another pretty dress, I don't really have any notes on this, I do love the way that this is cut, that is a very 1920s cut, and even just the pleated skirt. Obviously a much brighter and much more vibrant pattern for that time period. But I do also really love this green. It's like a-- it's a beautiful emerald green that I think was very associated with this time... or I should say, we now associate with this time.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

And that's where she's also starting to sing for Lina. So they're doing kind of their first recording of her singing in the background. So again, I tried to pull a big group shot of this. And he's envisioning this humongous musical number... modern portion of the movie, because now that he's pitched this idea and the producer likes it, he's kind of edging himself into that role of, "I can also be a producer." And so he's starting to think a little bit more like, "well, this is what I'm envisioning. This is what I'm seeing." And so this is all kind of in his head, and it's just these vibrant colors, vibrant patterns. Like, you can see how much more saturated the colors are here, and I think this has a lot to do with the Technicolor of the 1950s, while still kind of being the 1920s silhouette. So I just wanted to pull this because I liked this idea of how much there's already so much color in the movie. And then he kind of just like... Walter Plunkett just brought it to a whole new level and just pumped up all the colors. So I thought that was very successful.

Sarah  

So vibrant.

Jojo  

So vibrant, and probably so much work. Like, this only shows a corner of the room. I tried to get a bigger picture and there just wasn't a good, clear enough shot that could get everybody. And you can see how much fringe he used, which again, has become the very stereotype-1920s that we're used to seeing. You know, that kind of headband that a lot of them are wearing.

Sarah  

Uh huh.

Jojo  

This is almost like-- it's like a combination of 1920s and 1950s. This definitely looks more 1950s and not quite the finger wave...

Sarah  

The hair. Yeah.

Jojo  

...of the 1920s. But yeah, so I-- again, I just thought that was a really interesting juxtaposition that I still think works really well for this kind of this movie in particular.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And then just to focus in, there's a scene where he finally meets this beautiful woman who... I don't even remember the name of this actress. I should. I looked it up briefly and then forgot to write it down. So that was my fault.

Sarah  

Cyd Charisse, right?

Jojo  

Yes, I believe so.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But yeah, so she was actually a well known dancer, I believe, at the time.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And so she was featured in this, and in his other montage where it's just him and this girl. And I didn't even pull that scene, because it's so iconic that you can easily find it online.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But yeah, so I didn't have much to say about this. I just I really love the dress. I just thought it was very apropos of the 1920s as well, again, kind of indicating that sort of flapper-like fringe that we're used to, but almost like a wider fringe this time.

Sarah  

Yeah, like a carwash.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

That's what I think of, is carwash skirt.

Jojo  

So funny. It is a carwash skirt. And then again, the color I just really liked. I thought that was a nice juxtaposition, the all the colors that he has in this scene, even against the backdrop. Again, it's just sort of one of those things where it shows how important it is to talk to your production designer, or your art director, about what's being seen on stage.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I just thought this was really successful. And then just some quick, quick, quick things about his ensemble numbers, I just wanted to kind of zip through them really quickly. This is when he's-- I believe this is when he's singing "Gotta Dance." And again, it's still part of his kind of mental vision, and not necessarily what's happening in real life. But these are all the big numbers that he's envisioning. And this was sort of a Ziegfield Follies throwback.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And then there's a big number at the very end, which is when he sees the girl from the end, the girl in the green. But she's in her white dress at this point. So you see her in the distance with everyone else in color. And I just wanted to show this scene to just show the sheer mass of people that he had a costume. But also just how much he was able to pay attention to all the details of what everyone looked like, and the color palette, and how tight it was, again, in relation to the art direction. And then the final look, this is Lina at the very end. So once they've had Kathy singing for her, then of course the film becomes much more successful, it's much more well received by the audience. And they finally, you know, they're in the process of trying to... like, she's basically blackmailing the studio saying that, "if you reveal that it's not my voice, then I will come and sue the company."

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

And so they end up finally letting her make her speech so that the audience can see and hear her voice for what it really is. And then they come up with this whole ruse/plan to have Kathy singing in the background, and they open the curtain and obviously the audience sees Kathy singing instead of her.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

But I do want to say, I love this dress at the very end. It's not really 1920s at all.

Sarah  

No.

Jojo  

It's probably one of the ones that strayed the most from the silhouette of the time period. But I love the overuse of ostrich feathers and just... I'm trying to see if I have a... yes, there's the closeup of her dress. So it's just this beautiful kind of curtain fringe. And then even just her head piece, like... it just looks kind of ridiculous but also so beautiful at the same time. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So yes, I just love that even though she stands out in the room, this is sort of her most ridiculous moment. And she of course runs off stage when they hear her real voice. So anyways, all of that to be said, that is my final look for "Singin' in the Rain." I skipped so many really beautiful costumes that I wish I could've covered.

Sarah  

I mean... like I said, this is... we have to skip a lot. Like, we can't cover all of them, it's virtually impossible.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So, you did great. You picked the good ones, you picked the hits.

Jojo  

Thanks! Yeah, so I thought those were some fun ones that we talked about. You can see how much, like... Walter Plunkett's range of just the sheer amount of costumes, and also the variety of types of costumes, as well as the color palette, that he had to work with. Like, he really knew how to kind of fit it in with which scene, and which part of the movie, which I thought was really successful.

Sarah  

Totally.

Jojo  

And again, doing something this big, where it's such a huge undertaking, you know... I mean, he mentioned 500 costumes, but we look at that today and I'm like, "that doesn't seem like enough for the amount of costumes that was in this movie."

Sarah  

Maybe they made 500. And then the rest were pulled, rented?

Jojo  

Yeah, that's what I was wondering as well. Just because, you know, the extra scenes alone for the ensemble numbers at the end. It's just a sheer amount of people.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

There's-- I know there's at least more than 500 people in that room.

Sarah  

Totally.

Jojo  

It's crazy. But yeah, so...

Sarah  

So much work.

Jojo  

SO much work. And like, you know, his studio was doing a lot of it, I think. So... Pretty amazing. But yes, that's my coverage of "Singin' in the Rain." Hopefully you enjoyed it.

Sarah  

Great job.

Jojo  

Thanks! This was a fun episode to watch.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

Or, to cover.

Sarah  

I love... I need to watch "Singin' in the Rain" again. I live to watch an old movie musical. I just love them.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

The classics.

Jojo  

That one is not available for free anywhere. But I mean, it's easy to rent on...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...I think I ended up just renting it on Amazon Prime.

Sarah  

Nice.

Jojo  

So yeah!

Sarah  

Awesome.

Jojo  

Well, thanks so much for joining us, guys. We do have quite a few guest episodes this month. So I'm really excited for all the people we're going to be bringing in.

Sarah  

Yeah, we got some cool interviews coming up.

Jojo  

Yeah, super excited. And we actually have been approached by several of these people this month.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So it's great. Thanks so much for those of you who have been spreading the word. And for those of you who have been listening. It's definitely gotten our feet off the ground. And like I said, we're so excited to bring in all these guests artists. There's going to be a lot this month.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But we're excited to share with you guys what they have to say to you about, you know, just covering different movies that they're covering, and just talking about what they do as well.

Sarah  

Yeah, we're going to end up having three episodes this month, one of them will be a little bonus. So it might be shorter than the others. But we haven't-- we haven't recorded them yet. So we don't know. [both laugh]

Jojo  

But they're coming!

Sarah  

Yeah. And both of them are sort of like... we were like, "well, we want to get this done now." So it's gonna end up just being a bonus, which is good. We need more bonus content. So...

Jojo  

Yeah, for sure.

Sarah  

...that'll be exciting.

Jojo  

Yeah. And that way you guys can hear from other people besides us, too.

Sarah  

Yeah. [laughs] It's always good to hear... that's part of our goal, is to give voices to people in the industry.

Jojo  

Yeah. Definitely.

Sarah  

So I'm excited that they've started coming to us.

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

Like, that's really exciting.

Jojo  

It is really exciting. Cool! Well, thanks so much, everyone. Again, please rate and review us.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

And if you do have any comments or questions, or even concerns about things we're saying, we do ask that you guys, you know, talk to us on Instagram. Like, we're really good about responding.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And we love to be able to have direct communication with you guys. So yeah, we'd love to hear from you. Thanks so much for those of you who have been rating and reviewing us, and leaving us comments.

Sarah  

Yes, we appreciate it so much.

Jojo  

We do. All right!

Sarah  

Okay.

Jojo  

Well, we'll see you on our next episode.

Sarah  

See ya then.

Jojo  

Looking forward to our guest artists.

Sarah  

Yeah, look forward to that.

Jojo  

All right. Bye!

Sarah  

All right. Bye bye.

Jojo  

Thank you for listening to the costume plot. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the costume plot. If you have a question, comment or movie suggestion, you can email us at the costume pod@gmail.com

Sarah  

our theme music is by Jessie timp and our artwork is by Jojo see you please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[OUTRO]

Jojo

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 22: Captain Marvel & Scott Pilgrim vs. The World

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

And I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo

Hello, and welcome back to The Costume Plot.

Sarah  

Hi, how's it going?

Jojo  

Good, good. We did have a couple announcements to make at the top of this episode. And a lot of it has to do with just the reviews that we've been getting. And some of the following that we've been getting. We're so encouraged to see continual followers adding us on Instagram.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And the one thing we did want to also apologize for is being a little behind on YouTube. It's been kind of a crazy month.

Sarah  

For both of us. Yes. [laughs]

Jojo  

For both of us! Yes. So it's been a little insane. But thank you for staying with us. And thank you for continuing to listen and comment and leave us reviews. We did want to address the review that we did get this past week. And I wanted to apologize for using the term "whitewashing" last week on our episode about "The Impossible." I know that was probably an inappropriate term. And I wanted to just clarify that we are very aware that Eastern Europeans do...

Sarah  

Spanish people, not Eastern Europeans.

Jojo  

Sorry, Spanish people. [laughs] I'm tired.

Sarah  

Yeah. [laughs] We know Spain is predominantly Caucasian. We do know that. We just want to clarify.

Jojo  

Yes. Yes, I think one of the things that did distract me a little bit was... seeing the original family with such an olive tone and darker hair was something that I thought would be a little more reflected in the casting for the movie.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

And also the fact that their their names were very Anglicized. And I think that some of those choices may have been... yes, I guess for... well, we were told it was done for the purpose of being able to mainstream it a little bit more.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

And I think that was very successful. But again, it's a question that continues to be on our minds. And I'm really glad that we actually got some responses from one of the costume designers herself.

Sarah  

Yeah, Sparka Lee.

Jojo  

We're actually eventually hoping to get her as an interviewee on our podcast.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So hopefully, she can address some of those questions that we had and maybe talk a little bit more about the process, and how that kind of transitioned a little bit.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So yeah, again, this is a dialogue, we love to have dialogue with our listeners. So thank you guys for being so open with us.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And we just, we appreciate the reviews, we're always happy to talk. We do want and encourage more of you guys to leave comments on our Instagram, so that we can have that dialogue with you guys. Like I said, Sparka actually just messaged both of us directly on Instagram.

Sarah  

Yeah, she commented.

Jojo  

And she told us, yeah, she told us a lot about it. And again, it's a great perspective to be able to hear from the designers that are involved with these projects, because we don't always get to hear that. And I think that's something... you always have a new perspective, or a new insight, into different things that we maybe don't understand just 'cuz we're not in that situation. So...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So anyways, I wanted to publicly apologize. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

For using that term last week. And hopefully that addresses some of the problems that were coming up in our review.

Sarah  

I wanted to stress... because this review we got was three stars. So it wasn't like, one star. But I was a little frustrated because we couldn't reply to that review, except to record something as a response. So that's why we want to encourage people to email us, or DM us, or comment on our episode posts on our Instagram. Because if you have notes about one specific episode, we want to hear it, and we want to talk to you about it. And we were... in that review, they did say that we don't do enough research. And Jojo and I just want to emphasize that this podcast is a hobby for us. We both have jobs that keep us pretty busy. And we do as much research as we have time to do. And this podcast was always going to be a conversation, and it's always just for fun with us. And if you want really, really well researched costume content, it's out there on the internet. I recommend Bernadette Banner and Abby Cox. They're both YouTubers who do super thoroughly researched costume videos. Yeah, so our show is just kind of like a fun dialogue between us. And you know, there are some days where I'm like, "I want to keep reading about this, but I literally don't have time!" So you know, we come with what we're prepared with and... yeah, that's... that's it. [laughs] In conclusion, we appreciate the feedback but we also-- we want it to be a conversation between us and the listeners. And if it's just left in a review, we feel like it's not a conversation. We feel like it's just criticism, and we take criticism, but we want to be able to respond.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. It's all about the dialogue.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

This is a podcast that's a conversation, after all.

Sarah  

Exactly. Conversational. That's what we've always said.

Jojo  

Yes, very much so. And again, you know, it brings in a new perspective, right?

Sarah  

Sure, yeah.

Jojo  

So yes, totally, I will totally own up to saying "whitewashing," and that was not appropriate. But again, you know, let's talk about it. Let's have a dialogue about it. And I think that's something that's fun for us. But also, we want to be able to have that conversation with our listeners as well.

Sarah  

Yeah, because we are professionals in the industry. But that doesn't mean that we know everything.

Jojo  

Very true.

Sarah  

I learn a lot doing this show. So it's always going to be a learning experience, regardless.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. And we're always learning and still learning. And hopefully that continues.

Sarah  

Totally!

Jojo  

So anyways, back to our theme today. I'm really excited, actually, about our theme. We sort of chose this a little last minute. But...

Sarah  

Yeah. [laughs]

Jojo  

Like I said, it's been a very busy month.

Sarah  

We've been both just doing... doing stuff. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yes, it's been a good-- it's been a very productive month, but very, very busy. So I'm going to start us off, and our theme this week is... I think we ended up with "superhero geek movies"?

Sarah  

I don't even know what movie you're doing!

Jojo  

I don't know if that was officially our theme. [both laugh] I'm going to be covering "Captain Marvel". So I'm super excited.

Sarah  

Oooh! So, comic books... based on a comic book.

Jojo  

Yes, based on a comic book.

Sarah  

Both of ours, yeah.

Jojo  

That's our very unofficial/official theme this week. [both laugh] But yeah, so I'm really excited. I'm covering "Captain Marvel".

Sarah  

I'm excited.

Jojo  

It was premiered in 2019. And it was actually a codirector project. So it was directed by Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck, who actually started dating while they were in college, and were doing some short films together. And then, since then have pretty much done all of their projects together as codirectors.

Sarah  

Wow!

Jojo  

Which is pretty great. So a lot of their credits are the same, but include "Mississippi Grind," "Half Nelson," "The Affair," many of these I'm not as familiar with, but I recognized a lot of the covers. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So that was kind of interesting. "Sugar" is another one. "It's Kind of a Funny Story," which I think is a little bit bigger. But yes, I just thought that was really interesting. You know, it is so fascinating how our industry, because we're so tight knit and we're spending so much time together, it does often result in relationships. And sometimes that relationship turns into collaborations that are very successful. So... good for them.

Sarah  

Totally, I think that a lot of people... like, if you find someone who you know... like, you produce your best work with them, there's no reason not to stick together and keep doing that.

Jojo  

Absolutely. It's the same with your team too, you know, your design team. So anyways, that was the director-- codirectors. The costume designer for this was Sanja Milkovic Hays. I think that's how you say her name. She goes by Sanja Hays on the movie. And she's done a lot of huge things. So she did "The Mummy," the most recent "Tomb of the Dragon Emperor". She did "Independence Day."

Sarah  

Whoa.

Jojo  

She did "Stargate," she did all of the "Fast and Furious" franchise.

Sarah  

Oh dang!

Jojo  

I know, it's crazy. She did "Maze Runner," she did the new "Star Trek Beyond". So she's got some really big credits under her belt, which was very exciting for this.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And I also wanted to mention a couple just small facts about how she kind of came into this process, because as you-- well, maybe most of you don't know. But especially with Marvel comic--just the Avengers' comic world--and just comics in general, creating the superhero costumes has become very much a collaboration between concept artist and costume designer.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So it is no longer just the costume designer that's creating these, it often comes from a conceptual artist's drawing or illustration first, and then they kind of... the costume designer is able to sort of tweak and kind of adjust things on an actual body.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

So we're thinking about the kind of the 3D, and the conceptual artist is looking at the 2D initially.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So it talks a little bit about how she worked with Marvel's digital visual development director, Andy Park, who... I was just really excited that he was Asian, but--[both laugh] that was just me--to create Marvel's costumes with a very purposeful intent. And one of the things I loved about this movie is that... and again, I don't know a lot about Captain Marvel. I was asking my husband about this because he's, of course, the comic geek. But Captain Marvel is pretty much the most powerful superhero, and she basically can't die, or can't get destroyed or whatever.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. Yep.

Jojo  

But I just thought it was so interesting that when they put her in this... I mean, they did the movie last, because Matt literally reminded me that if they had done her movie first, they wouldn't have needed any of the Avengers. They would have just been useless. [both laugh] I was like, "Oh, that's a good point." But I just thought it was interesting that she mentioned she was very purposeful in her intent not to sexualize or over-fetishize the Captain Marvel costume. Because a lot of the original illustrations in the comics are her in a very swimsuit, or bathing suit, type of silhouette.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jojo  

So they worked really hard to try and get away from that. And I also found this really interesting blog, or I guess it's like a magazine. I'm not really sure what... the website's called Decider. But the writer Meghan O'Keefe stated, "Carol Danvers's superhero costume is maybe the first major lady's costume that feels designed for a woman literally on the go. By that I mean, it's not for the male gaze but for a heroine who needs to be prepared for a long chase, followed by high impact rolls and hanging off a lead without any kind of grip assist."

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And it's... it's so true. I think one of the things she mentioned was that she was very much in kind of athletic gymwear, and even the grip of her gloves just shows a lot. And all the pockets, also, was a functional thing.

Sarah  

Pockets, all we need is pockets.

Jojo  

So everything on her costume is very functional, very comfortable, very wearable and physical. So, kind of meant to withstand all the physical durability that she needs.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

This movie is also set in the 90s. So Captain Marvel is kind of way before all the other Avengers really kind of get on board, and the Avengers team is even assembled. So it's interesting also seeing Nick Fury, who... if you don't know the Marvel world, he's kind of the one that starts the Avengers Initiative. And it kind of shows his origin story, in addition to showing how Captain Marvel came to be.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I will start with our first look. And I kind of went in order with this movie. I just felt like that was the easiest. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty... Marvel movies are an undertaking, that's...

Jojo  

It really, really is.

Sarah  

There's just a lot of clothes.

Jojo  

It's interesting, because after I was watching this, it kind of reminded me that with the superheroes, they're... once you get them fitted and make them look awesome, their costume doesn't really change too much.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But then you have all the background characters and all the other alien creatures that you have to costume. So it really is like an entire city, you know, thousands of people that you have to dress, not just the leads. So anyways, I wanted to start with Carol Danvers, played by our Brie Larson.

Sarah  

Love her.

Jojo  

And then Jude Law, who's who's kind of her trainer at the very beginning. And the first thing they have is their fight scene. She can't sleep. So she goes and fights with him. But I wanted to kind of just look at how simplistic, but also how detailed, these costumes are. Because it's essentially just kind of a crossbody. There's a little bit of an Asian inspiration in it, almost like a kimono wrap kind of garment.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah.

Jojo  

Or even like... I think of the Taekwondo garments or the jujitsu garments, where they often are tied around the middle with a cross in the front.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jojo  

And I liked that they kind of made a nod to that. I don't know if that was intentional or not. But there's certainly a lot of that silhouette based there.

Sarah  

I feel like probably. Yeah, 'cuz they're doing basically alien martial arts. So I feel like that's probably a little nod.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah. And you can't really see their pants. But I did love that the top really incorporates the gym, kind of athletic wear that sort of wicks off sweat.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

And it still has that feeling of their athletic wear, so something that they would wear to their training.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So anyways, I just thought that was really interesting. Not too much to add about that. I wanted to focus on the original... you know, and obviously, Captain Marvel goes into American colors later, but she starts off in the green and the black and a little bit of the silver. And interestingly enough, I had no idea there was actually significance to this. I was just like, "Oh, it's a pretty color on her and on the rest of the team." But apparently, the original Captain Mar-Vell, so the original comic books, was actually a male character. And he was dressed in an outfit very similar to this that was in silver and green.

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

And so it's kind of interesting that they sort of gender-bent the actual Mar-Vell character in this in this movie, sorry, spoiler alert. And she is actually in the silver and green that's very similar to the original comic book.

Sarah  

Cool.

Jojo  

So I just thought that was really cool. And it was sort of a nice little nod to that, and obviously they were very intentional even about choosing that color. I also just love that, for some reason, her and the Black character... well, there are other Black characters, but it's interesting that three of them are blue, and then just the two of them are left with their natural skin tone. And I was just... again, it was a question, I had no idea why that happened. Or if there was an intention behind choosing specific actors to paint in blue?

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

And leaving, obviously, she has to be left as human. But I was just curious about that choice. So again, a question maybe for the costume designer or for the concept artist.

Sarah  

Yeah, or if anybody knows... I mean, I don't want to get legions of Marvel fans in our comments, who are like "You got all this wrong!"

Jojo  

[laughs] I know, we're probably going to get that. I apologize, Marvel fans.

Sarah  

We'll see if they can find us.

Jojo  

There's a lot of movies. [both laugh] But I did love that there was so much diverse representation here.

Sarah  

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Jojo  

You know, your actors, they definitely chose a diverse group of actors, which I was really excited about that.

Yeah.

Do I have anything else I wanted to indicate on this? Oh, I did write that they also wanted her to look like a serious superhero/warrior, but yet keep her looking feminine and like a woman.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

So I think they did that really well. And the fact that they kind of kept the uniform kind of straight across male and female. I thought that was really...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...I thought that was good for them to be able to say... neither one is more sexualized than the other, I guess. Like, all their uniforms are the same. And they still all look really cool as flightsuits.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I just thought that was really successful. So good job.

Sarah  

I agree.

Jojo  

Good job, Marvel team. Just a couple other shots of her. This is from the front. And that way, you can kind of see the full body and the boots that she has on too. Like, I mean, this is crazy. It almost looks like it goes over her boots, but I can't tell exactly.

Sarah  

I feel like yes? Yeah?

Jojo  

Yeah, I don't know if it's something strapped underneath.

Sarah  

I imagine there are many different versions, right? So like...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...she probably wears a certain kind for filming fight scenes.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And a certain kind if she's just kind of standing there. Like, I am so interested, maybe Kelly has some insight into that.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah, possibly.

Sarah  

Because she's worked on some Antman and stuff.

Jojo  

Yeah. Well, and the other thing that Sanja mentioned as well, was that when they were fitting her... because after they went from the concept art to the actual fittings, she actually had to keep adjusting regularly. Because at this time, Brie was also physically training for this role.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jojo  

And so she-- her body was just constantly changing, because she was gaining muscle in all these new places. And so like, them having to adjust the costume to that each time was yet another part of the project of trying to get her fitted and make her look good. So...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...so yeah, it is kind of a constant, ongoing thing. And it's so interesting with film. And again, we have a little less experience directly with film. But it is sort of one of those things where just having been in it, it's so fast. It's such a quick turnaround, you have literally less than zero time to do everything. So it's just amazing that this this was created with constant changing, you know, on the go.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, because Marvel movies are planned years in advance. But then like, you can't make a costume years in advance, because like you said, the body changes and then the design can be changing up until... you know. I dunno.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So it's... it is so impressive that it all kind of just comes together.

Jojo  

Yes, definitely. Okay, and then I also wanted to add in the the helmet that they created. So I had a funny... let's see if I can find it. I put it down here somewhere. So there was a really funny bet that was made over this helmet. And interestingly enough, this was a whole kind of redesign of Captain Marvel's character, because she was so pictured in all these swimming suits. It was this funny thing between... the writer DeConnick made a bet with an illustrator, Jamie McKelvie, that Marvel would pay for this redesign if he did a redesign of the suit, basically. And she had specifically... or sorry, DeConnick had specifically asked and requested Jamie, because I guess he's a very well known illustrator, who has been really big as a comic book artist, who happens to also really pay attention to fashion and what's in trend, and has really changed the face of like what it means for comic book heroes to transition. And what that means in costumes as well. So costume design, specifically so when she requested him it was with this knowledge knowing that he is one of the best one of the top. And of course, when he did the redesign, Marvel was in love with it. So she made this bet in the beginning basically saying like, if Marvel doesn't pay for this redesign, then I will pay you myself, because I really want you to redesign this and of course, You know, Marvel loved it. So they went with this redesign. And it's interesting because he created this helmet basically to hold up her hair. So it's actually her hair that's the mohawk and not just a random fringe that appears on the top. So again, just adding to that whole kind of not sexualized, but very almost androgynous, kind of look. Yeah, that is still very functional for this. So I just really love that. So I wanted to make sure we show show a shot of that as well. Okay, moving on. So my next one is actually a shot of Dr. Wendy Lawson, who, of course, is revealed as our Marvell so the original mentor of Captain Marvel in the comics. And again, they gender bent, it used to be a man in the original comics, but in this one, they they portrayed Captain Marvel as a as a female. And I really love that I think she did. She wasn't in the movie for very, very much cheap, you know, constant flashbacks to her. I just love that there's a lot of references to the flight suit. And even though it is the 90s there's such a 40s kind of bend to it. And just kind of that world war, sort of iconic silhouette, with the leather kind of aviator jackets and the flight suits, especially for her like just this very specific like logo that they included on there too was just was kind of a nice sort of detail that I think they included on the the leather jacket that Captain Marvel also sports later on. And of course, it's just her name tag, but I just thought it was kind of a cool shot of her and I couldn't find very many pictures of this. So this is the one we've got is very tiny. So then moving on to some of the more 90s were so obviously once Captain Marvel lands on Earth, she has to basically go back into plainclothes men clothing. So she ends up stealing an outfit off of a mannequin and stealing this guy's bike or motorcycle. And so she kind of dresses in this sort of distress. And again, you know, me and me and distressed garments, I just really love how, like loved this leather jacket. This jacket is so good. It's so good. Just everything about it even the way the lapels are like just kind of nicely scratched up. And then the sleeves and just the way that she's worn it. It's so funny, because this is literally grabbed off of a mannequin, but I was like, it looks like it's been loved for like 40 years.

Sarah  

She grabs the jacket too?

Jojo  

I think so, I don't think she had it before.

Sarah  

I can't remember.

Jojo  

Well, maybe she stole it from a motorcycle guy.

Sarah  

I've only seen it once.

Jojo  

It's been a while. But...

Sarah  

Yeah, cuz I feel like the outfit, the jeans and the T shirt, came from the mannequin.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

But then the jacket was from somewhere else? I need to re-watch this movie, I haven't seen it since it came out.

Jojo  

Yeah. I was trying to rewatch and take notes at the same time. So I might've missed that.

Sarah  

That's tough, yeah. [laughs]

Jojo  

But that would make a lot more sense, that this is kind of more aged in that way. I do also love that she doesn't start with the baseball cap. But once she's reunited with Fury, she kind of ends up having this Agents of SHIELD cap, which I think is also a nice little nod. I think one thing that Marvel does a lot, and just Disney in general, is all the different worlds kind of collide at some point. And there's a lot of different Easter eggs that are always hidden in the movies.

Sarah  

Well, does it count as an Easter egg? Because doesn't he worked for SHIELD?

Jojo  

He does. But this is so in the beginning that when you're seeing this, it's so interesting that they already have all the insignia, and everything's set up and ready to go.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, I think that... yeah, the logo just probably didn't change.

Jojo  

Yeah, so I just thought that was a cute little, you know, like he gave her a baseball cap to blend in.

Sarah  

I do like that. Yeah, "look like you belong here." [laughs]

Jojo  

Right, exactly. And so... and then she's got the Nine Inch Nails tee, and just kind of the ripped jeans. Very, very 90s. The designer talks a lot about how they decided to go more grunge with the 90s. Just because, you know, we've talked about the 90s a lot in a lot of our movies. But this was one particular aspect of the 90s that she really kind of gravitated towards for Brie's character. Which I think really fits very well, with a lot of the T-shirts... even the small, tiny flashbacks, which I didn't bring in here because it's too many photos. A lot of that stuff was references to 80s rock bands and things like that, that she would have listened to. Let's see, what did I put? Oh, she said she wanted to keep it so that there's an almost tomboyish image, an attitude that she has. And rather than going for the 80s kind of neon spandex or something silly, she wanted to go with grunge. So I thought that was really successful.

Sarah  

Totally.

Jojo  

And then they also talked a little bit about the fact that they went through multiple logos of rock bands and decided that Nine Inch Nails was subtle enough that it didn't distract from looking at Brie's face while you're trying to hear her talk. So I thought that was also... I mean, again, it's something that designers are always thinking about. It's not just about how cool the image is. It's about what's going to distract the audience from paying attention to the story.

Sarah  

Yeah, because probably not everybody recognizes that as a Nine Inch Nails logo.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah, and I've actually... at first, I couldn't see what it was initially. And then finally she took her leather jacket off. And I was like, "Oh, yeah." But yes, you don't really-- it's kind of a nondescript design, or very abstract at first. So I thought that was really successful and very subtle. So, good job.

Sarah  

I did that outfit for Comic Con in 2019.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And I didn't want to wear a wig because I hate wearing wigs. But...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...my hair is the exact right length.

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

So I was like, "my hair is tie dye. So I'm gonna make a tie dye version of this outfit." So I made like a colorful version of it.

Jojo  

Ooooh!

Sarah  

And like, two people got it. And I was like, "I'm at Comic Con!" You would think that people-- and like, the movie had JUST come out recently.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

You would think that people would recognize this as being Captain Marvel. Nobody got it. [laughs]

Jojo  

Right, right. Maybe because they were just so distracted by the tie dye. I don't know.

Sarah  

Maybe.

Jojo  

That's sad, though.

Sarah  

I know.

Jojo  

You were just trying to be recognized, Sarah.

Sarah  

I looked cute.

Jojo  

[laughs] I'm sure you did.

Sarah  

Thanks. [laughs]

Jojo  

Okay. I'm not going to talk too much about Fury in this, just because he's pretty straightforward. And again, I ran out of space for pictures. So.

Sarah  

Yeah, we gotta... just we gotta edit ourselves.

Jojo  

We do. I'll talk about him at the end. Okay, so the other big favorite of mine that I really loved in this movie was Maria Rambeau. So she's Marvel's best friend, before she becomes Marvel. And they were basically air pilots together, before she crashed and was taken over. But I love this outfit, because again, it's so simple, but it's such a nod to that flight suit of the of the Air Force pilots. And that's a big thing about this both of them were air pilots. And they talked a lot about how they were women in this role where it was mostly a man's world. And they were doing all kinds of stunts and things like that, because that's all they could contribute to the war. So I just thought that was really interesting that they were referencing a lot of those. Again, even though we're in the 90s. You know, it's sort of one of those things where there's so much going on, and you know, they're still trying to empower women in this way. While making a nod to essentially a kind of... almost a man's uniform, it's a very auto mechanic kind of look. So...

Sarah  

I mean, for a long time, in order to be a woman in a traditionally male field, you had to basically blend in and pretend to be a man. That's almost the idea of power dressing from the 80s.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

It's that women started wearing very menswear inspired suits, because they were going into the workforce more than ever. So it's like, you didn't get respect unless you dress like you were man, almost. You know what I mean?

Jojo  

Right, right. Yeah. And again, there's definitely feminine parts of this costume. Like, I love the little pop of color that she's included in there.

Sarah  

She's got a waist, too.

Jojo  

And then she's also... Yeah, exactly. And then she's also got the little necklace that kind of is sort of representative of her daughter, and how important she is to her. So I just love, you know, again, little details of the 90s that I think came back in this movie tenfold. I think she did a really good job of just making sure those details were there.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

The next picture is also a picture of her and her daughter, because again, I love that her daughter's just wearing her oversized t-shirt. And it's a US-- well, it's the US Air Force. But it's interesting because I did a show about the WASP, which were the Women Air Service Pilots. And basically they... again, because they weren't allowed in war, they basically had to do all the training and testing of all the pilot planes before the Air Force pilots actually took them out into war. So they were doing all the crazy stunts and stuff, and then not really getting the glory, for lack of a better term. So.

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

But yes, I just thought this was interesting that she put her in the T-shirt that we actually see Marvel in in her flashback. So it's... you know, it's kind of this nod to like, "oh, I've kept your T-shirt all these years in memory of you." So I just thought that was really sweet. Then I wanted to focus on the Skrull aliens. I don't have too much on this. I didn't do as much research on the notes of how this was made. But I just... these are just so cool. And like the fact that they spent probably a lot of time, or equal amounts of time, on these outfits. For the for the many, many aliens that showed up. [laughs]

Sarah  

There's a lot of aliens.

Jojo  

As they did on Captain Marvel. Just goes to show you how big Disney is and how big Marvel is. So again, all the detail, I love the asymmetry of this and just even the texture of this. I think it's leather, it looks like leather, or possibly a 3D printed fabric. Again, just all the patchwork of this. And of course, this is Talos, who's kind of the leader, and so his jacket is clearly longer. But as you can see in the next picture, some of his henchmen have varying levels of shorter versions of the same kind of jacket, just with different... you know, with different overlaps and things like that.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

So I just thought that was really interesting, that she tied everyone in together but still gave them such individuality, which we do a lot as costume designers, I think. You know, when you're trying to create a group, you still give them differences so that each of them has a personality and they're not completely getting lost in the collective.

Sarah  

Totally.

Jojo  

Okay, next one. So then, of course, we move to her official Captain Marvel suit. And actually, it's the same exact silhouette as her green suit. Basically, what happens is, she just has a little button on her forearm that Monica Rambeau--the young daughter--ends up changing for her, and styling for her. So it really is just a change in color on her actual suit. But of course, for the actual purposes of this movie, they probably made this suit separately.

Sarah  

I would imagine so!

Jojo  

I assume that it didn't just change colors. [both laugh] Like, you never know with technology these days, you know, maybe it did.

Sarah  

If only.

Jojo  

But yeah, so I just thought that was so interesting, they kept a lot of the same lines. And everything is so, so detailed here. But you see how much strength that they've emphasized. And this actually goes back to a lot of the original comic illustrations of this newer version of Captain Marvel. So, very similar, she had... I think she had less lines in the body suit. But it's got the same kind of red almost... shoulder capelet portion, in addition to the blue part of the body suit. So again, just really, really love it. I thought it was a really good break up of color. And I think she did a really good job of just all the lines still giving that femininity while still also showcasing strength.

Sarah  

Totally.

Jojo  

Okay... oh, and then this is the original redesign by Jamie McKelvie. So this was the design that he submitted, that they made the bet over.

Sarah  

Ohhh.

Jojo  

So I just thought that was so interesting, you know, all the stuff that he's even drawing in, like how everything functions, how her hair would be up without the helmet, and what it will look like. And this kind of sash, you can see, was actually more inspired by the original comic book drawings, because she did wear that sash across the bathing suit. And this is kind of what I meant by that red sort of... caped area.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jojo  

And of course, they did some cooler lines in there to sort of show the... like, kind of emphasizing the abs, I guess, on the actual bodysuit. So anyways, just wanted to show that so that we can see the concept to the final thing.

Sarah  

Cool.

Jojo  

We can ignore the picture on the right, because that's in "WandaVision". But there is some throwbacks to that. I did want to basically show a final image of Monica and Maria. And again, it's nothing huge, I don't have too many notes, I just thought they looked really cute. And it was just interesting that we see her in sort of a more feminine color at the end. Because I think Maria ends up being in a lot of kind of bright yellows, and bright reds, which looks really really great, actually, on the darker skin tone.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But I love that they kind of softened her up for this final scene where they're having dinner together. And they've kind of reunited with Captain Marvel, before she has to leave. So again, a much softer, and kind of more feminine, tone for the girl as well. She's got these really cute little jeans, and I couldn't find any pictures of them. I'm sure screengrab has them. But they've got this beautiful floral design that's patched on to the bottom of the of the jeans. And then she's got this cute little top. Which, again, they make all kinds of connections to "WandaVision" later on, of who she is. But I won't spoil too much of that 'cuz that's another episode. And then...

Sarah  

I love those little Easter eggs.

Jojo  

Yeah, so true. So again, just another close up of her. And again, you can't really see the close up of the mom in the back. But just seeing her in kind of a more fitted jean and a little bit more of a more feminine top that kind of shows off her body, as opposed to the flight suits that we keep seeing her in prior to this. And then... the final Captain Marvel look, you really don't see this leather jacket for very long, which is unfortunate. I mean, even the designer was kind of like, "I wish we had seen it for longer. I was hoping it would be on screen longer." But they talked a lot about it because the daughter, basically, is keeping her leather jacket for her. But I just wanted to show this quick shot of the back. Because this was one of the things that costume designer actually talked about having sort of a backstory that the audience might not necessarily know. But their backstory for it when they designed it, or when they came up with this idea, was that it was something given to her by her grandfather. So like, when he was in the war, he would have... a lot of times they would have had some kind of symbol either painted or etched or embroidered on the back to kind of indicate that it was their jacket. And so this was something that she would have maybe gotten passed down to her from her grandfather. So I just thought that was, again, a really nice little small Easter egg that we don't necessarily... I don't even think we really ever see the back of the jacket that often.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

You do see the front with the, you know, the wing insignia for the Air Force. So I thought that was kind of interesting. But again, you see that shirt that she's wearing, that we see later on on the daughter.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So there's a better, cleaner fake shot of it. [laughs] This isn't actually her, but...

Sarah  

What is THAT from?

Jojo  

I know, I was like, "uhhhhh, this is a better shot of the jacket." But I'm pretty sure this is a doll version that they recreated of her or something.

Sarah  

It does look like a doll.

Jojo  

But I wanted to indicate just the the winged fighter plane that she has on the back, which was something that the designer really talked... not too long about. But she mentioned that that was something that maybe her grandfather would have had put on the back. Okay, and then final look, this is the only one and only time I'll talk about Nick Fury. I just love this red on him. Again, I just I think I really like the color red on a darker skin tone, because it kind of brings out the richness, I think, in the skin tone.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And this is, again, kind of a nod to how we see Fury later on in all of the Avenger movies. This is very similar to kind of what he wears for the rest of the other movies. And this is also when we finally see him with his eyepatch, because in the beginning, he starts off with both eyes fully functional. So I just thought this was a really good look on him. And again, it also makes him... I think having made him look so much younger than he does in all the other movies, I think this was a really great way to kind of show how svelte he actually is.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

By just sort of, you know, again, making him look younger and making him look stronger. Emphasizing the body shape. Weirdly enough, not necessarily sexualizing him, but really showing, you know, that he's young and ready to go, and ready to take on this Avengers Initiative. So I just thought that was a really successful way of doing that. And a good way to end the movie. This was a short scene at the very end, but..

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jojo  

But I just thought this was good to take note of. So yes, that's my coverage of "Captain Marvel".

Sarah  

Awesome.

Jojo  

All right, Sarah, your turn!

Sarah  

That made me want to watch that movie again.

Jojo  

I know. It's good. And it's on Disney+.

Sarah  

Yeah, I love an action movie that has a lot of women in... not just starring, but in "in charge" roles like director, writer, producer. Like, you can really tell, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I feel the same way about the first "Wonder Woman". It's just like, you can really tell that it was directed by a woman.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah  

Anyway. All right.

Jojo  

Woohoo.

Sarah  

Let me share my screen. Okay, so, my movie this week is my absolute favorite movie in the world, which was really lovely to watch after a really emotional week.

Jojo  

[laughs] Yes.

Sarah  

To sit down and watch my favorite movie was really fun. And like, kind of with fresh eyes, too, you know, because I think I've seen it probably upwards of 50 times.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah  

But to see it with the intent of looking at the costumes was definitely a new experience for me. I'm gonna set... I'm gonna set my timer, because that served me well last time.

Yes, I need to start doing that.

It was good!

Jojo  

Next episode, next episode. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah, 'cuz you can look and see how much time you kind of... see how you're doing, and see if you need to speed up or slow down, you know what I mean?

Jojo  

Yeah, very true.

Sarah  

Okay, so this movie is from 2010 and it actually just had an anniversary. And...

Jojo  

Already?!

Sarah  

Yeah, 10 year anniversary was in 2020.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. [both laugh] It just doesn't feel like that long since we've seen that movie.

Sarah  

I know. It got rereleased back into the theaters with newly remastered sound and stuff...

Jojo  

Oooh.

Sarah  

And picture? I don't know, new edited sound of some kind, and it got delayed because of COVID. But they did it, they finally did rerelease it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I didn't go see it. I kinda wanted to. I used to go see the... they used to show it at the Frida Cinema in Santa Ana, they would do the Scott Pilgrim Picture Show. Kind of like Rocky Horror, no shadow cast, but like...

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

You know, people would come in costumes and there was themed snacks and contests and stuff.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Anyway, okay. It was directed by Edgar Wright, who in my opinion is one of our great visionaries in movies. He is one of my absolute favorites. You might know him from the Cornetto Trilogy, which is "Shaun of the Dead," "Hot Fuzz," and "The World's End".

Jojo  

Oh yes.

Sarah  

Which are all excellent. "Baby Driver," which I also love, even though it has Kevin Spacey in it, who is a creep.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

And then he has a new movie called "Last Night in SoHo" starring Anya Taylor Joy, who was in the new "Emma," who we love and it sounds really cool.

Jojo  

Oh, I haven't seen that yet. I keep seeing the trailers for it and I haven't watched it yet.

Sarah  

I don't think it's out yet.

Jojo  

Oh, I thought... maybe I'm thinking of a different movie.

Sarah  

Maybe. It's about a girl who loves fashion design, which I was like, "Okay, I'm on board." And it also has something to do with the 60s and I think there's some sort of time travel element.

Jojo  

Yes!

Sarah  

I didn't read it that closely. I was just like, "I'll see that no matter what."

Jojo  

I remember seeing the trailer and being thoroughly confused, but being like, "that looks really cool."

Sarah  

The costumes are by Laura Jean Shannon, who we have talked about before, because she did "Elf," which we have covered. Jojo covered it.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And she works a lot.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

She did "Iron Man". She does the TV show "The Boys," "Requiem for a Dream," "Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle". And she's been nominated for a couple of Costume Designers Guild Awards. So good for her. She's killing it. This movie was a box office bomb when it came out. Which is hilarious to me, because everybody I know loves it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

The budget is estimated at around $85 million, but it only earned $49.3. Which is bad.

Jojo  

Oh my gosh, it didn't even make half of it back. Yikes! [both laugh]

Sarah  

I think it was a marketing issue.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

I think the studio truly just didn't know how to market it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So it didn't really reach the people it was supposed to reach.

Jojo  

That makes me sad. It's so good. [laughs]

Sarah  

It became a cult classic, though on... you know, DVD and stuff.

Jojo  

Sure.

Sarah  

And it is now considered, you know... when it came to Netflix, I remember people losing their minds. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing.

Sarah  

So if you don't know, it's based on a graphic novel, a series of graphic novels. And it is really, really highly stylized in sort of like a comic book/video game format, where there will be text on screen that says like, "pow, wham, bam."

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then there's just all sorts of visual effects. And a lot of it is shot-for-shot panels of the graphic novel, which I was surprised by when I read them... years ago, they're on my shelf right there. I need to reread them.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. I want to read the originals. I've never actually read them.

Sarah  

They're fun! You know, there's a lot more that happens because, you know, there's six of them.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So they can't fit it all into the movie. But... from the Wikipedia, Edgar Wright cited and Italian movie from 1968 called "Danger Diabolique".

Jojo  

Oooh. [laughs]

Sarah  

Which is also an adaptation of a comic. So it was-- he said that he took "a sense of completely unbridled imagination," and that "they don't make any attempt to make it look realistic." So he didn't want it to look like real life, basically.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Yeah. And he says that the stuff that happens on screen, with the graphics on the screen and the text, he said that this is basically... how he sees it is a visual representation of what is happening inside Scott's brain.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So it's, you know, for example when Scott-- we see Scott go use the bathroom. And on the screen, there's a thing that says "pee bar" and it's like a little bar that goes "booooop" as he pees.

Jojo  

[laughs] Yeah.

Sarah  

So, that's just an example.

Jojo  

I forgot about that part. [laughs]

Sarah  

I know. There are six volumes of the graphic novel, but at the time of the production of this movie, the sixth one had not come out yet. So they basically didn't know how it was gonna end. So they kind of made up their own ending. So it's different than in the book. But Laura Jean Shannon says that one of the costumes that she invented, and did not directly copy, ended up making it into the sixth book. So like...

Jojo  

Nice!

Sarah  

...Bryan Lee O'Malley, the author of the book, saw it and was like, "I like that." So he drew it into the comic on one of Ramona's costumes.

Jojo  

That's awesome.

Sarah  

I know, right?

Jojo  

Very cool.

Sarah  

He like, immortalized her work. I love that.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah  

Oh, another thing that makes this movie interesting is that there are huge comic book movie stars in it. So Brie Larson is in this movie, which is so funny to me.

Jojo  

Yeah. [laughs]

Sarah  

Happy coincidence.

Jojo  

I forgot about that!

Sarah  

She was 18 years old when they made this movie.

Jojo  

Oh my gosh.

Sarah  

It was like her breakout role, basically.

Jojo  

Is she Ramona?

Sarah  

She's Envy. The singer in the band.

Jojo  

Oh, she's... Okay, that's why. I was like, "wait, that's not her." And I was like, "No, it's definitely a different person." [laughs]

Sarah  

Mary Elizabeth Winstead plays Ramona.

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

But then, Chris Evans is also in it. So it's like...

Jojo  

Oh my goodness, I forgot about that, too! Oh, he's one of the boyfriends.

Sarah  

Yeah, he's one of the exes. So there...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...there are a lot of references to other properties, and comic books, and movies. And it's so funny that now, the presence of those two actors is also in itself a reference. Because they are superheroes now.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

So funny to me. Oh, and then the last note I have before I start talking about costumes is that Bryan Lee O'Malley, the author, says that he regrets that there were not enough roles in the movie for non white people.

Jojo  

[laughs] Oh.

Sarah  

And they stay very close to the graphic novel, and Bryan himself is half Korean. So like...

Jojo  

Really?!

Sarah  

...they did it, they adapted it how he wrote it. [laughs] Yeah.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

He was just kind of like, "yeah, I probably could have put more people of color."

Jojo  

[laughs] In retrospect.

Sarah  

Oh, and shout out to my brother Jesse 'cuz he requested that I cover this movie.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah.

Sarah  

Hi Jesse.

Jojo  

Yay.

Sarah  

He composed our beautiful theme music.

Jojo  

He did.

Sarah  

We love him.

Jojo  

Thanks, Jesse.

Sarah  

Thanks, Jesse! Okay, so in terms of costumes... this is not like a costume-y movie. If that makes sense.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

They stuck-- I found like, one interview with Laura Jean, there's not a lot out there.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Of her just talking about the clothes. Because like, in terms of this movie, it's not really something people focus on.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

They focus on how stylized, and the action scenes, and stuff like that.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

But she said, basically, that she really wanted to stick close to the graphic novel. So some of the outfits are literal recreations of what is in the graphic novel.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then she kind of used that framework to make her own... to kind of be creative within that, and makeup her own outfits that she thought fit with the other ones that are directly from the source.

Jojo  

That's so interesting, because it is kind of like you're almost creating your own Comic Con. Right? You're creating all these characters based on something that exists in a comic. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it is so interesting to try to translate something from a 2D illustration into...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...a real person who wears real clothes.

Jojo  

Right. And something that's so stylized like this, you know, like this image. Because you think about the concept artists that go to our superheroes today. And they've created pretty much the same, similar look, maybe with the exception of some style lines. But like, with this when you're going from something so cartoony and non-proportional to something that's human shaped.... It's interesting. I feel like it's a creative challenge.

Sarah  

Definitely, definitely. Because the silhouette is always gonna look different no matter what.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

'Cuz your person who you're dressing has a person body.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And the cartoon is kind of triangle... or whatever. You know, whatever it may be.

Jojo  

Like a large head and really skinny body or whatever.

Sarah  

Exactly. This is Scott from the graphic novel. And he is great. [both laugh] I don't know where I was going when I started that sentence! Oh, I should probably just run down the plot real quick. It's about Scott Pilgrim, who is kind of a slacker. And he is dating this girl named Knives--who is in high school--and he shouldn't be dating a high schooler because he's an adult.

Jojo  

[laughs] Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then he meets this girl Ramona. And he falls for her and kind of cheats on Knives with Ramona. And then Ramona is like, "Oh, actually, I have seven evil exes. Who you need to defeat in order to date me." They formed the league, basically.

Jojo  

Right. [laughs]

Sarah  

And it's... Scott Pilgrim is incredibly good at fighting. And in the movie, and in the graphic novel, it's never explained why he's so good. [both laugh] It's just acknowledged that he is.

Jojo  

[laughs] Yep.

Sarah  

I always thought that was so funny. So basically, the movie is just him moving through the League of Seven Evil Exes, in order to date Ramona, and...

Jojo  

All for a girl. [laughs]

Sarah  

All for a girl. This one girl. Okay...

Jojo  

So funny.

Sarah  

It's funny, because I've seen a lot of-- since it's been getting more attention recently, I've seen some little clickbait-y articles, and it'll be like, "actually, Scott is the bad guy!" And it's like, "Yeah, he sucks." Like, we all KNEW that. He's not a good person for most of the movie. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Oh, so funny.

Sarah  

Like, you just realized that?

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

Okay, so here's him in the movie, and I have a picture of him in his parka later. I had to really be careful. Like, I arranged the photos very specifically so that I can fit them all in. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

But this is him and Knives, and... his basic uniform.... Oh, and I found this interesting, is that he's basically a superhero, almost. Because he has these weird, amazing fighting powers that are never explained.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

But his superhero uniform is like, a ringer tee and jeans.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

And sneakers, and wristbands, and a parka. Which I think is so funny.

Jojo  

I love it.

Sarah  

'Cuz he wears different versions of that exact exact same thing through the whole movie. And I love this Sharpie shirt a lot.

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

It's so cute. And then here we have Knives, and this is her school uniform, I think, because she goes to a Catholic school.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And we see her go through a pretty big transformation over the course of the movie. Because this is her when she's dating Scott, but then he breaks up with her and she cuts her hair really short and dyes it to look more like Ramona. And then by the end she looks more like herself again. So she's-- I always feel bad for Knives. She's great. She deserves better. [laughs]

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then this is Ramona in the comics. She's great. Love her.

Jojo  

I love the drawing style. It's so cute.

Sarah  

It's so, so cute. I love. And then this is her, basically, in sort of like what they interpreted this look into being in the movie, and this is what I like to call her "delivery girl" outfit.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And it's like an olive green sort of jacket with a hoodie underneath, with a sweater underneath, because they're in Canada and it's winter. But then a miniskirt and tights. [both laugh] Because she still wants to be cute.

Jojo  

As you do.

Sarah  

And then...

Jojo  

I find that that's true in all cold cities, though, they're always wearing the most impossibly cold things. But then everything is layered on top.

Sarah  

Yes, my sister always likes to talk about how she went to London in like, January, and all the girls who are going clubbing on the Tube would literally just be wearing miniskirts, and just like... soldiering through. [both laugh] No coats.

Jojo  

That was my experience at Syracuse, too. I was like, "why? Why do you do this to yourself?" [laughs]

Sarah  

Beauty is pain.

Jojo  

So funny.

Sarah  

And another element of her costume is this purse, which is her subspace purse. So it's basically like a portal to subspace, where she likes to store things. But she can also travel with it, into another dimension. And it helps her get across town faster in order to...

Jojo  

Whaaat!

Sarah  

....deliver Amazon packages, which is what her job is. [laughs]

Jojo  

I forgot about that! That's crazy.

Sarah  

It's literally a throwaway line. But then later she and Scott use it, they like... it shows them flying through space. I love this movie.

Jojo  

[laughs] I need to rewatch it again. There's parts of this that I forgot about.

Sarah  

So so good. So good. And then this picture of her with the purse is from later. I think I ended up cutting the picture of her in this full outfit. Yeah. But she this hammer, she pulls out of the purse, which is always a good time.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

We love a purse that's bigger on the inside. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yes. Mary Poppins that.

Sarah  

Exactly. Hermione Granger, Mary Poppins, and Ramona Flowers. Okay, so this is the first time they meet. And I love this because they're wearing each other's colors.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So basically like, she's wearing pink, and she often is wearing monochrome in the color that her hair is. So her hair starts pink, and then it goes blue, and then it goes green. And so she's wearing pink here, but she has a little blue pocket. And then he's wearing blue. But he has a little reddish-pink shirt peeking out.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So it's like they're visually tied together the first time that they meet each other, whichI think is so cute.

Jojo  

Yeah. Very subtle, but very intentional.

Sarah  

Exactly. And I don't know about Ramona, but every time I wear something that matches my hair, people go, "oh my god, your shirt matches your hair!"

Jojo  

I know. People say that to me all the time. I'm like, "it wasn't intentional." I promise.

Sarah  

I'm also just like... "I know." Like, I can see it. [both laugh] Thanks for noticing, I guess?

Jojo  

I'm not blind, I dressed myself this morning.

Sarah  

Yeah! [both laugh] So sometimes I avoid it because I don't want to have that conversation. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Ohhh. Anyway. Yeah. So anyhow, here's Scott and his parka. So this is the shot from the comic, this is the movie.

Jojo  

I love that so much.

Sarah  

And in that one interview I found, Laura Jean said they that they built these parkas, they had them made. And they made, like, 20 of them?

Jojo  

Whoa!

Sarah  

Yeah, she said they made about 20 of different levels of dirtiness. And then like, for different purposes, stunt wise, because there's a lot of action sequences, fight scenes, and stuff.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And this little patch right here is an X. So that's kind of fun, because it's he's fighting the Leage of Exes. But this is actually an X-Men reference, too.

Jojo  

Yeah. Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So that's cute. And then I have here a little handy graphic of all the T-shirts he wears. [laughs]

Jojo  

I love that so much.

Sarah  

I was happy to find this.

Jojo  

And with the matching shoes!

Sarah  

I know. I was happy to find this so that I didn't have to get pictures of all of them.

Jojo  

That's so funny. What a great way to do that.

Sarah  

Yeah, thank you.

Jojo  

And his little arm bands, I love that.

Sarah  

I know! So-- like, this green one, I don't have any pictures of him in it, I don't think. But it has an "SP" and it's actually a Smashing Pumpkins shirt.

Jojo  

Ohh.

Sarah  

But it's "SP" for Scott Pilgrim as well.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

I did a little research on these. This Match Pik one, that is a-- I think it's a brand of guitar picks, because he's a bassist.

Jojo  

Okay, yeah.

Sarah  

Plumtree is a band but like, a really obscure one.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Let's see... because his name, Scott Pilgrim, comes from a song by Plumtree. So that's a reference to that.

Jojo  

Ahh.

Sarah  

And this particular Plumtree sure is seen in the graphic novel, which I think is very fun. And then this little skull is from something called Diesel Sweeties, which I think is a webcomic.

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

And then he just has one that says "SARS," which is excellent. [both laugh] This is Astro Boy.

Jojo  

And Astro Boy! Love it.

Sarah  

Yep. I don't know what "zero" is. But like, I think people have said that he's zero in the League of Exes, or-- he also drinks Coke Zero, famously.

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

And then this is a Fantastic Four thing, but this is four and a half.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

And this is Guitar Hero, this red one.

Jojo  

Uh huh.

Sarah  

So I don't know what this guy is over here in the...

Jojo  

Oh. Okay.

Sarah  

...the circle that looks like it's made of CDs.

Jojo  

Interesting. I was... I know, I was thinking CDs as well. [note: it's the logo to the CBC.]

Sarah  

Yeah, I was a little bit late because I was on a website that was literally a breakdown of every single graphic tee in the movie. And I didn't get to that one. [laughs]

Jojo  

No worries. No worries.

Sarah  

So yeah.

Jojo  

Those are just fun.

Sarah  

Right? I love a graphic tee. So.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So here's him, this is the Plumtree shirt in action. And then this is one of my favorite scenes, just because like... this is him and his bandmates. So we have Scott... the singer... Oh my god, I just forgot his name. [laughs] I've seen this movie SO many times. What is his name? ...Steven.

Jojo  

It's been too long since I've seen it.

Sarah  

Steven. "He's the talent." [both laugh] This is Young Neil. And this is Kim, who plays drums, and it's funny 'cuz...

Jojo  

I do love Kim.

Sarah  

I love Kim. These guys look exactly like they look in the graphic novel. And I had a picture of that, but I had to cut it 'cuz I [singsong] didn't have enooough.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah  

I do have an extra picture of him...

Jojo  

So many pictures for this movie.

Sarah  

...in the Plumtree shirt, though. I don't know. So there's that. This scene is also one of the ones that is identical in the book, which I just love. And as you can see, there's text on the screen. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

But yeah, Kim, in her-- she's constantly wearing a jacket that's zipped all the way up to the throat. And it's, to me, like... she and Scott used to date, and she is a little bit closed off. She's very sarcastic and a little bit aggressive. So I think that having a jacket zipped all the way up shows that she's uncomfortable, you know, just always kind of like, ready to fight people.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Right.

Sarah  

And then I love Steven's sort of Western shirt with the guitars on it. That is so cool.

Jojo  

That's such a nice little touch.

Sarah  

I know, right? He's always wearing a Western shirt. And like, also in the comic book. So I just... I love how closely they stuck to it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

This is Matthew Patel. He's the first evil ex boyfriend. ....Yep. [both laugh]

Jojo  

[long sigh] That's all I have say about that!

Sarah  

I think the one thing I have to say is that the polo with the popped color, in 2010 I think was already dated. So...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...him thinking that he's cool by popping his color and having emo boy hair when it was already...

Jojo  

It's almost 90s.

Sarah  

I feel like it's very my era, like MySpace, 2005... sort of. This is the kind of boy that I loved on MySpace.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

When I was a teenager. [laughs]

Jojo  

Oh, so funny.

Sarah  

But in 2010 that was already a little bit like, "eurgh." So he's trying to be cool but not really succeeding.

Jojo  

Yeah. Right.

Sarah  

And then we have Roxy, she is Ramona's only female ex. Her outfit is rad and confusing. [both laugh] 'Cuz...

Jojo  

I don't know which. [laughs]

Sarah  

She.... it's like...

Jojo  

Oh wow!

Sarah  

...is it a dress? She has a little triangle bikini top that has spangles on it.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah.

Sarah  

Or studs. You can kind of see right here. And then she has sort of like a cropped hoodie with a giant hood. Love, love a giant hood.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then I think... like, a one-sided sort of dress.

Jojo  

It almost looks like it's falling off. A little bit?

Sarah  

Yeah, maybe it's unbuckled on one side or something.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then she has ripped up stockings and like, big furry boots. [laughs]

Jojo  

But only ripped on one side.

Sarah  

Yeah. And then the belt-- this belt is actually her weapon. And she whips it around.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah  

It's great. And I love her makeup so, so much. So cool. Okay.

Jojo  

[laughs] They did a good job.

Sarah  

So let's move on to Envy. This is Envy in the comic book. She's the lead singer of The Clash at Demonhead, which is a fictional band. And she is also Scott's "big ex" from the past, like... his only serious relationship from his past. Well, he also dated Kim, but they weren't that serious.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then this is Brie Larson as Envy.

Jojo  

Ugh, so great.

Sarah  

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say this was my bisexual awakening. [both laugh] Me being like, "Oh, I think I do like girls too." 'Cuz look at her!

Jojo  

She's so fierce.

Sarah  

She's stunning. This white trench coat. She pretty much just wears black and white, and then a little bit of red. And then I love her jewelry, because these earrings, I think, are snakes.

Jojo  

Oooh.

Sarah  

And then she has sort of like a bird skull and a dagger for necklaces.

Jojo  

Uh huh.

Sarah  

She just looks very dangerous and sexy. Which is the idea, right? Is that like, she's from his past and she's-- now she's really famous and everybody loves her. And she's a threat, basically.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

This is her onstage, singing...

Jojo  

Oh my goodness, she looks so young in comparison. So crazy.

Sarah  

I know! And so... like, she's so buff now because she's a superhero that her little arms...

Jojo  

They look so lanky! [laughs]

Sarah  

And then this is her shoes. I didn't get a full body shot because there isn't really one, but I'm obsessed with these shoes.

Jojo  

Yeah. Oh my goodness.

Sarah  

She's partially based on the lead singer of Metric. Because--

Jojo  

I love Metric.

Sarah  

Me too. And the song she's singing is a Metric song that I think Metric wrote for the movie.

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

But yeah, so she's partially based on the lead singer of Metric, whose name is Emily Hane. Okay, this is Ramona and Knives in the bathroom at that gig. And as you can see, Knives has transformed into sort of like a mini Ramona. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah. It's like she decided to quit halfway through. [both laugh] "I couldn't commit to the full hair."

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah. So Ramona has her blue hair now. So then Knives has sort of like a partially blue thing happening because she's mad and she wants to get back at Scott. Which is funny to get back at him by like, making yourself look like his current girlfriend. That's kind of a weird move. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

But she is, like, 17.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

I had more outfits of Ramona's and I just literally like... I didn't have... I couldn't do it.

Jojo  

It's so hard.

Sarah  

But she does wear a lot of blue when her hair is blue, fittingly. So...

Jojo  

I do love this color blue on her.

Sarah  

Me too. Me too.

Jojo  

I mean, just in general, but I mean, it looks great on her.

Sarah  

She looks good in any hair color. Yeah. Okay, so this is Todd. He's one of the evil exes and he's also in the band The Clash at Demonhead. And he and Envy, you can see that they're very clearly tied together because they both wear black and white.

Jojo  

Oh my goodness. She's so skinny there.

Sarah  

I know, she's little. She was 18!

Jojo  

So crazy.

Sarah  

She's already a petite girl, but she's definitely like...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah. It's funny to me that Todd also wear sweatbands. I don't know what that's about. Maybe Bryan Lee O'Malley really just likes drawing sweatbands on people. [laughs]

Jojo  

Or maybe he grew up playing tennis.

Sarah  

Oh, maybe.

Jojo  

So he's just used to having them on all the time. So he just assumed everyone else is gonna wear them.

Sarah  

And he has a three on his shirt because he's the third evil ex. Some things are that literal. [both laugh]

Jojo  

So funny. It works.

Sarah  

Yeah. And then.... Oh, also, I forgot about him. Oh my gosh, this is Brandon Routh, also known as Superman from the Superman movies that came out in the late 2000s.

Jojo  

Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.

Sarah  

Yeah, so he was like, the first...

Jojo  

I don't know if I've seen any of those.

Sarah  

I saw the first one and it was not good. Are there... is there more than one?

Jojo  

That's what I might've heard.

Sarah  

I don't know.

Jojo  

Possibly.

Sarah  

But yeah, I definitely saw it and was not impressed. But he was like, the first modern Superman reboot... Superman.

Jojo  

Oh, okay.

Sarah  

So it's funny that he's in-- this was also after that. So it's funny that he's in this, because it's like a comic book... superhero sort of thing.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

And then here's Envy in that same outfit. It's just a close up of the jacket, which I love.

Jojo  

I want that jacket so bad.

Sarah  

I know. And you can see her earrings, her little snake earrings. Oh, and she is blonde in the movie. But in the comic you can kind of see... this is kind of a weird... colorized. But she's redhead. And you can see the-- there are camera tests that I think were a part of the DVD special features.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And they camera test her in a bunch of different hair colors. So I think they decided on this one, just based on what she looked the best in, instead of sticking super close to the comics. And I think that that was a good choice because the super blonde hair is so striking, especially compared to everybody else.

Jojo  

Especially since she's wearing black and white.

Sarah  

Yeah. It makes her whole...

Jojo  

It keeps to that color palette.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, monochrome... sort of thing. So amazing. Oh, I forgot to mention when I was talking about Roxy that Laura Jean Shannon said that her costume was the most fun for her.

Jojo  

Oh, nice.

Sarah  

I think she's just kind of, you know-- it's more creative and weird and interesting.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Oh, I have a note about Ramona's hair. But that's-- look, here's a picture of Ramona and her hair. [both laugh] This is from a website called Moda Chicago. And that's kind of where some of the information I had about Scott's t-shirts is from too.

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

"Looking at the moments in the movie, Ramona styles her hair differently. She changes into the blue after the first time Scott sleeps at her house, and then into the green when she rekindles her relationship with Gideon, who was the seventh ex. And these are clues that link her hairstyles with her feelings about her relationship." So it's like she changes her hair when something major is happening in her life. And I can relate to that 'cuz I do that too. [laughs]

Jojo  

Isn't that the only reason you change hair color?

Sarah  

No, it isn't, but it's...

Jojo  

I know. [laughs]

Sarah  

It's a fun thing to do to distract yourself if you're going through something.

Jojo  

I didn't mean you, specifically, I meant in general. [laughs]

Sarah  

Oh yeah, the royal you. The general you. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I like that it's sort of like a visual marker of her emotional progress through the movie. So this is her last iteration. It's her green. Again, looking great. And then this is Gideon played by Jason Schwartzman, who is so funny. And my sister was watching this with me--and I noticed that too--she was like, "he's wearing, like, the same jacket as Envy." So if we look back at Envy's...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...it's white with black topstitching, and so is his. So, that's so interesting to me.

Jojo  

Fascinating.

Sarah  

Like, was that on purpose? I don't know. Did they just like it?

Jojo  

Yeah. I wonder what the choice was for that.

Sarah  

Yeah. I know that Jason Schwartzman has talked about this character. And he says that he played it as if he thinks that this guy wears silky women's underwear as like a secret to himself. [both laugh] So I think about that every time I watch it, and I'm like, "makes sense. Totally makes sense."

Jojo  

[laughs] "Now I understand your acting choices."

Sarah  

Right? He's very slimy and very, very concerned with being cool and hip. And... yeah. And he just wants attention. So this is definitely the outfit of a guy who wants attention: the white blazer with a red shirt, and he has a full cane.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah  

He's gross. And then Ramona ends the movie-- I don't have a full body shot of this because I couldn't find any good ones. But it's a really cute sort of fit-and-flare dress. Looks pretty poofy on the bottom. Great.

Jojo  

So cute.

Sarah  

And that's it! That's all I've got.

Jojo  

Woo!

Sarah  

I have five seconds to spare on timer.

Jojo  

"All" you got, I love it. [laughs]

Sarah  

...two, one.

Jojo  

We did good on time.

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

Awesome job, Sarah.

Sarah  

Nailed it.

Jojo  

It was so fun to go back through that movie. It's been a while since I've seen it.

Sarah  

It's the best.

Jojo  

I have to watch it again. That's definitely one that I watch over and over again as well.

Sarah  

Absolutely. It's a comfort movie for me, for sure. And I have a lot of it memorized. [laughs]

Jojo  

Love it. As you should.

Sarah  

It's great.

Jojo  

All right.

Sarah  

This was fun!

Jojo  

Definitely. That's all we have for today. We'll see you on the next one. And if you have any comments, like we said, you know, please do review. And please do comment on our Instagram. We do respond pretty quickly to, actually, anyone who's left any messages or comments.

Sarah  

Yeah, we see them.

Jojo  

And we do love to hear from you guys. You know, we're nothing without our listeners. So we love having comments, and even just insight from you guys. Like I said, we don't know anything... I mean... [both laugh]

Sarah  

We're ust a couple of dumb-dumbs.

Jojo  

Let's rephrase that! We don't know everything. [both laugh] That's what I meant. Yes, we don't know everything. And it's always great to hear, you know, people that have the insight or have actual information about all of these little quirky things. Especially for movies and comic book worlds like this where...

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, there's a lot of lore.

Jojo  

...there really is such a-- I mean, you know, camaraderie between fans.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jojo  

They really know so much more information than we know. So, anything you can tell us.

Sarah  

It's overwhelming. Yeah.

Jojo  

Yes. So some of these things we've been asking questions about, we'd love to hear from you.

Sarah  

Yeah. And I want to do a quick thank you to anybody who might have voted for me in the Her Universe Fashion Show. I did not win. But I am very happy for those who did and I'm happy to possibly get the chance to do it again in the future, you know?

Yeah! Every year is a learning experience.

So thank you if you did. I appreciate it. I had a lot of fun. I'm really proud of the work I did. So.

Jojo  

Yay! I voted for you, Sarah.

Sarah  

Thaaanks! [both laugh]

Jojo  

I meant to tell you, but I was like, "I'll just tell her in person."

Sarah  

Appreciate it.

Jojo  

But yes. All right. Well, we will see you on the next episode. Thanks again for joining us, and we'll see you on the next one.

Sarah  

Thank you. Bye!

Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 21: Walk the Line & The Impossible

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

And I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Sarah  

Hello!

Jojo  

Hello, welcome back.

Sarah  

How's it going?

Jojo  

Yay. We actually recorded more often this month, and I still feel like it's been forever. [both laugh]

Sarah  

I know! We're curring it fine again, too, where we're not that long from release. But that's okay. We have time. It's great. Here we are. We made it.

Jojo  

Sorry. It's been a busy month.

Sarah  

Jojo's had a lot going on. But we're glad. I'm glad you've made it. Here you are.

Jojo  

Thanks. Still surviving somehow. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. So I have a thing that I want to talk about at the top of the show today. It's a little bit of self promotion. So I hope our listeners are okay with that. I am competing in the Her Universe Fashion Show, as you guys might know. And it's virtual this year, and there is an audience vote. [editor's note: Votes are now closed! I didn't win!] So I'm campaigning for votes right now! I need your vote. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yay!

Sarah  

If I win, if I win, I get the chance to design a line with Her Universe that gets sold in Hot Topic. So it's a really big deal. My look is "Hamilton"-inspired. And if you listen to the show, you know I am a big fan of "Hamilton".

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

I'm really proud of it. And I got to shoot in a theater, like an abandoned theater, from the 20s. So like, I'm just so excited. So all the links that I have so far will be in the description of this episode. We haven't given been giving a lot information. It's on... I'll back up. It's on July 23. [laughs] At 5pm pacific time.

Jojo  

Very important.

Sarah  

Yeah, that's the important information. And it's part of Comic-Con@Home, San Diego Comic Con. And so we don't have any specific links for where to watch it yet. But I do have a link that will hopefully be updated as the info gets released. And then that will hopefully also have voting stuff. But yes, please watch. And then please vote for me, if you like my look.

Jojo  

Yay! Definitely vote for Sarah.

Sarah  

Thank you so much.

Jojo  

I'm so excited to see it in person.

Sarah  

I'm so excited too.

Jojo  

I've only been seeing snippets of it.

Sarah  

I know. If you follow me on social media, I've been trying my best to kind of like build some suspense. I made a little trailer in iMovie. I'm doing the thing.

Jojo  

I saw that. I love it.

Sarah  

I'm working hard on trying to get people interested, because I mean... more power to them, but I'm competing against some people who have multiple thousands of followers. Like, 25-100k. So I gotta find a way to stand out, you know, when I don't have that big of a fan base.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Right.

Sarah  

Which, like, I'm excited for them that they have that. I just don't.

Jojo  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah  

So.

Jojo  

We'll get there eventually.

Sarah  

I mean, maybe I'll win and then I'll be... my followers will just "whoosh!"... through the roof.

Jojo  

That would be great.

Sarah  

So then I'm Instagram famous. [both laugh] Okay. Yeah.

Jojo  

Perfect. Onto our theme!

Sarah  

Our theme this week! I'm going first this week, our theme is... are we calling this "based on real life events"? Is that what we're...?

Jojo  

I think so. I think that's what we ended up deciding, like, based on true events.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And however loosely that is, that is true.

Sarah  

Yeah. So real people or real historical events. So I chose "Walk the Line". Because I'm not usually a biopic person. I often find them to be a little bit... I don't wanna say "heavy handed," but it's sort of like they're always sort of Oscar-bait movies. And they're really melodramatic sometimes, but I really like "Walk the Line". And I'm not even a giant Johnny Cash fan. I just love this movie.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I think I also just really love Reese Witherspoon. So that helps a lot. She's...

Jojo  

She's pretty great.

Sarah  

...one of my faves. Okay, so I'll just dive in. It was released in 2005. So I was like, you know... it still feels like a very current movie to me, but it's very much not. Because that was...

Jojo  

I know, I forget how far away 2005 was. Like, that really wasn't that long ago, but...

Sarah  

Once again, just facing our own mortality on this show. Going, "What? ...Okay."

Jojo  

How have we passed this many years already?

Sarah  

[laughs] Exactly. It was directed by James Mangold, who is a very prolific director. He's done "Logan," "Ford v. Ferrari," "3:10 to Yuma," "Girl, Interrupted," and he's also a producer. So he produced "Greatest Showman," lots of blockbuster movies. And the costumes were designed by Arianne Phillips, who works a lot with James Mangold. So she designed a lot of those movies that I just mentioned, in addition to "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood," "Kingsman: The Golden Circle," "Nocturnal Animals," which I heard is not a very good movie, but the costumes are great. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then she also has a really long-standing working relationship with Madonna. So she has styled basically everything Madonna has done, like in the last...

Jojo  

That's amazing.

Sarah  

...decade, at least. So, good for her. That's great.

Jojo  

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah  

Oh, and she also did a couple of really iconic movies that I haven't even seen. But if I can... I can imagine the looks from them. So those are "Tank Girl" and "The Crow". And I'm like...

Jojo  

[gasps] Ooooh.

Sarah  

...I know both of those visually, even though I haven't seen them.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah  

So she's done a lot of great work.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

She has been nominated for three Oscars, one for "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood," one for "W.E.,", which makes sense, because didn't Madonna direct that?

Jojo  

I think so.

Sarah  

And then this movie. And she has not won an Oscar yet, but she probably will eventually.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And she has been nominated for a lot of Costume Designers' Guild Awards, and she won one for "W.E.". And then she also has a Tony for "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" on Broadway, because I think she did the movie as well.

Jojo  

Oh yeah, I forgot she did that one. Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah. So it's cool... I like when-- it happened with my movie last week, too, where the designers also got to design the stage adaptation of the movie that they designed. I think that's cool. Okay, so the movie itself was in part based on two autobiographies, "Man in Black" from 1975, and "Cash: the Autobiography" from 1997. Although they say that the film goes deeper into some painful sort of subjects that Johnny Cash himself didn't really dive into in those books.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I don't really have any other like background on the movie itself. I think they were trying to get it made for a really long time. And it just like, finally happened in 2005. So let me share my screen. I have a lot of pictures this week. So I think that, you know, I'll obviously put all of them on Pinterest, but I might have to weed out a few for Instagram, or I might have to do two posts, we'll kind of see how I feel.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Partly because I have some real life pictures, as you can see, to compare to the movie.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then also because we go through, like, three decades. We go from the 40s through to the late 60s. So there's a lot of periods being represented.

Jojo  

A lot of period wear.

Sarah  

I don't know why put this one first. That doesn't go first. That's not it. [both laugh] That one's first. Okay, so we open in 1944. I mean, basically, the story of this movie is Johnny Cash's life, which is... he starts growing up in rural Arkansas. And he loses his older brother very young, in a tablesaw accident, which is really sad. And it seems like it informs a lot of his life, and his trauma, throughout the movie.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then he joins the military and gets married. And then he kind of hits it big in music. And then it's basically just about his musical career, and also his struggle with drugs and alcohol. And then also his eventual relationship with June Carter, who he falls in love with when he's already married to his first wife. And he doesn't exactly stay faithful to her. But then he and June...

Jojo  

[laughs] As we well know.

Sarah  

[laughs] Yeah. He and June eventually do get married. And, you know, after the events of this movie, they were married for like 35 years. Until they both passed away. So that's the story. It's Johnny Cash's life. Okay. So here we are in 1940s Arkansas, and I like these sort of first scenes, they're very warm in color, I feel like. Everything looks kind of dusty, but also really hot, you know, and it kind of sets the mood of this. They're very poor. So this is him and his brother, he... Johnny is on the left. And when he's young, he goes by the name JR. And he has a lot of guilt because his brother, he says, is the good son. Basically, his brother wants to be a preacher and is really good at minding his parents and is really helpful, and JR just feels lesser-than, like he's not as good as his brother. So.... Oh, also his dad is abusive. And his dad even says, after his brother dies, he says,  "God took the wrong son," basically.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah  

So that's gonna really impart some trauma on your child, to say something like that.

Jojo  

Just a little bit.

Sarah  

Just a little bit. Yeah, so this is them going fishing. And their little relationship is so cute, they're clearly very close. And so it's even more heartbreaking that one of them dies. And then this is his mom, who is the one who teaches him to sing and stuff. And this is... oh, I have this, and I was thinking about cutting it, but I have a picture of her later in the movie. So I wanted to compare, you know, her. Because she's not in a lot in the movie. But we see her go through a big change, you know, after Johnny is successful and is probably like, paying for her to have a happy life. A happy, comfortable life later in life.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So, yeah... oh... yeah, I put these in a dumb order. Okay, this one. [both laugh] Sometimes I label them wrong.

Jojo  

I do the same thing.

Sarah  

So this is Johnny thing after he goes and serves in Germany. And that's kind of like... not really focused on in the movie. But... this is... he has a job, basically, as a door to door salesman, and he's not doing a very good job at it. So this outfit really says to me a real lack of personality, because he hasn't really found who he is yet. He hasn't found his own identity. He hasn't found even-- he knows that he likes to sing. But he hasn't really let himself think that maybe he could be a successful music artist.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And also, when he first tries, when he first starts a band, they do exclusively gospel music. And the radio guy who they meet with is like, "Gospel music doesn't sell anymore. What do you have?" And so he like, on a whim, plays him... the famous song about shooting man in Reno. Can't remember what it's called. [editor's note: "Folsom Prison Blues"]

Jojo  

You're asking the wrong person, I'm so bad with names. [laughs]

Sarah  

I don't know.

Jojo  

I know what you're talking about, though.

Sarah  

I honestly... "I hear a train a-comin'." I don't know. Anyway, I really liked this soundtrack in high school when it came out.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I just don't remember the names of the songs. So this is them playing for that radio guy.

Jojo  

Mmm.

Sarah  

And it's not really communicated why he chose black. But black becomes, obviously, his signature color. Maybe it's just like, they all had black in their wardrobe. So they were like, "let's all just wear black."

Jojo  

Right. Pretty standard color.

Sarah  

Yeah. And his wife says, "It looks like you're going to a funeral." And throughout the movie, people tell him that. And he's like, "maybe I am."

Jojo  

[laughs] "Maybe that's exactly what I'm doing."

Sarah  

Let's see. So there's an LA Times article that's an interview with Arianne Phillips, and she says, "You can read a lot into it. Black is a very humble color, and Cash was a working man's man. He was also an outsider who didn't belong to the rock world, or the country world. And there was something shocking at the time about wearing all black. It's what you wore to funerals. So it worked for him on many levels." So he just becomes... he becomes the man in black, you know.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

This is his wife, Vivian. And I have a lot to say about her.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

Because... so she's played by Ginnifer Goodwin, who we can see here, I like this. I really like this pattern of this gingham with the stripe, with the cardigan on top.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I pulled it because it's like my favorite look of hers. But I want to talk about stuff that isn't even costume related when it comes to her character. So his wife, Vivian, let's get into it. She was...

Jojo  

[laughs] Let's dive deep.

Sarah  

I'm ready. She was a mixed race woman. And I found this out because a Twitter thread came across my page recently where it was like, "can't believe they cast Ginnifer Goodwin to play a black woman," basically. And I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are we talking about here?" So I did some research. Her grandparents were from Italy. And then Vivian, according to her at the time, her grandmother--I mean, her mother's family--was like, German and Irish.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So in real life, Vivian was photographed at a court hearing with Johnny when he was arrested for drug possession. And in the photo, she looks darker skinned than him. And so at the time, I found an article... oh, in the Washington Post, and it said, "at the time in the eyes of most Americans, you were either black or you weren't." And interracial marriage would not become legal until 1967. So leaders of the racist National State's Rights Party in Alabama ran an article in their newspaper "exposing" Johnny for having a "Negro" wife, basically being like, "they're trying to hide the fact that she's black."

Jojo  

Ahh. Right.

Sarah  

And they were connected to the KKK, this organization was, and they boycotted him for like a year. So he had to basically file a counter attack and sue them for this, because Vivian at the time thought that she was white. She had gone to all white schools, and on her birth certificate, marriage certificate, it says Caucasian, because...

Jojo  

Ah, right.

Sarah  

That's what their whole family thought they were. So in THIS year, February of 2021, Roseanne Cash--Johnny's daughter, who is also a country star in her own right--went on the show "Finding Your Roots". Which is about genealogy and DNA tracing.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And they found that Vivian Cash's--so Vivian, the wife's--maternal great great grandmother was an enslaved black woman named Sarah Shields, whose white Father, in 1848, had "granted her and her eight siblings their freedom and their passage into whiteness." So she married a white man. And by the time Jim Crow arrived in the 1930s, all of her children and their descendants were listed as white. So...

Jojo  

Wow.

Sarah  

...she had basically erased her own blackness, Sarah Shields did, from her descendants.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So Vivian Cash did not even know that she had a black ancestor.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So, I was ready to come on the podcast and be like, "Can you believe they whitewashed this character?" But in 2005...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...we were still taking Vivian's word for it--and her whole family's word for it--that she didn't have any black relatives.

Jojo  

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah  

So isn't that interesting? [laughs]

Jojo  

That's so crazy. Like to, I mean, to not know that, too. I feel like...

Sarah  

I know.

Jojo  

...that's such a huge part of your identity, to not know for your entire-- I mean, for your adult life too, not even... like, it's one thing if you didn't know as a kid, because you just didn't know any better. But to have have that all throughout your adulthood, like, that's crazy.

Sarah  

Yeah, it probably made the real Vivian's life easier that she had been passing, you know?

Jojo  

Oh, yeah. Right.

Sarah  

But it is kind of heartbreaking to know that, like, this enslaved woman's story wasn't known until now.

Jojo  

Yeah. Until many, many, many years later.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

That's crazy!

Sarah  

I know! So I just thought it was really interesting. The other thing I'll say about this character is that... this is the thing I don't like about biopics. It's that there's often, in the stories of great men--like, genius men--there's often a first wife or a first girlfriend who is just seen as a long-suffering wife, who has his children. But basically, the audience is kind of meant to see her as a complainer who's holding him back from achieving his destiny.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And I definitely think that she serves that role in this movie. And it kind of is a disservice to her, because they were married for like 12 years.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And probably a lot of those years were really difficult for her. So I think it sucks for her to just be portrayed as like, she's holding him back from being the real Johnny Cash, and also holding him back from his relationship with June, which is also problematic.

Jojo  

Right, right. I think that's a lot of biopics, too, it's like, you know.... Oh, you're right. She definitely... she definitely looks like she has some sort of Black in her history.

Sarah  

Yeah, she looks darker skinned. And like, you know, at the time, she was probably just like, "Oh, I have olive tone. I have Italian, you know, Mediterranean DNA."

Jojo  

Right, right. Right.

Sarah  

Yeah. So that's the real life Vivian and Johnny. Okay.

Jojo  

So interesting.

Sarah  

I know, right? So I... that just kind of gave me the lesson of, like: don't get mad about things you see on Twitter without actually reading what they're about. [laughs]

Jojo  

Do the research first.

Sarah  

Yeah. All right. Moving on. Moving on. So this is Jerry Lee Lewis, and I love him. He's sort of... he has a more flamboyant style, obviously. My brother was watching this movie with me and said he looked really 70s, and I could agree with that.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Even though this is the 50s at this point. He has sort of, like, unbuttoned... very rakish hair. And then this is him in real life. So I feel like it's a pretty good job casting.

Jojo  

Ohh. Yeah.

Sarah  

Okay, let's talk about June because let's get to the main event, honestly.

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

This is a picture of Reese on set. So her hair is not... like, I think her hair is in rollers.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And she's just walking to or from. But this is the best picture I could find of this whole dress. There's not a lot of really good high quality pictures out there.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And Arianne talks about this costume. So she says for June Carter Cash, she referenced 1950s Howdy Doody culture and Minnie Pearl, who... I don't know really who that is. Didn't Google it. "She found her talisman for the character at the Santa Monica Vintage Expo, a ruffled red organza dress with a sweetheart neckline and Swiss dot overlay," that she wears in basically her first scene. And they had to rework it, and redo it, because it was rotting, apparently.

Jojo  

Ohh.

Sarah  

So I wonder if that means that they replaced the whole lining, or did they take a pattern off it and basically make a replica? Unclear. Yeah. And she says, "the dress summed up for me the place that June Carter comes from as a child performer, as this comedic character at the Grand Ole Opry. I knew we would see her transform into a woman but the starting point was this cartoonish country girl." So June says in the movie that her sisters are the pretty ones and the talented ones, and that she had to learn to be funny.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And so we can see, sort of, it's a little immature and young-looking, and definitely sort of cartoony.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Very comedic.

Sarah  

Yes, exactly. Here is that dress onstage. And they said... I watched an interview with her on YouTube as well. She said that they did a screen test in this video.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And the... not the network. The... the studio! That's the word I'm looking for. [both laugh] The studio got worried because the sleeves were really poofy. And it was just this sort of... it was more cartoony than they were originally... thinking.

Jojo  

...Expecting. Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah. And when you book a name as big as Reese Witherspoon, the studio definitely wants Reese Witherspoon's fans to come to the movie and see Reese Witherspoon.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Like, people are expecting to recognize her. So they don't want the costume to swallow her and be all that people can focus on. So...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...studio notes are often like, "Oh, make the lead sexier," or "tone this down."

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And I think that they took some extra ruffles off the sleeves from what it originally looked like. But it looks pretty-- they showed some footage of the screen test and it looks pretty much the same.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. I mean, they still kept that poof sleeve too. I feel like there's still that. It doesn't take away enough from her, that you're not like, "oh, who is that?" Or like, "I'm so distracted."

Sarah  

Yeah. Exactly. Agreed. So this is Johnny onstage. And he goes... we see a few of his sort of onstage outfits before he starts only wearing black. It seems like he started wearing exclusively black on stage in the 60s. So this is him in the 50s, it's this lovely red- burgundy.

Jojo  

Yeah. Oooh.

Sarah  

I like that.

Jojo  

Does he have a design on his lapel too?

Sarah  

Oh, it... does it say JC?

Jojo  

Or J... oh yeah, that's pretty cool.

Sarah  

It's hard to find pictures of this movie, which is surprising.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Like, I always expect, if it was nominated for costumes, that I'll be able to find really good pictures of the costumes.

Jojo  

That's what you would think!

Sarah  

Not so much.

Jojo  

Nope.

Sarah  

So this is June later on when they're on tour. And they're kind of just walking through town, having some time off. And so we see this in contrast to her stage persona, her real life wardrobe is a lot more subdued. It's still very sweet and feminine, but it's definitely more grown up, and as she goes through the movie, it definitely gets more and more grown up as she evolves and comes into her own. Oh... do have a picture? I don't think I do. So in the interview Arianne said she found an orange and green flowered dress, a vintage one, because apparently the budget was pretty small for this.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So she used a lot of actual vintage, borrowed... you know, found for cheap. And one of them she found, she found an actual picture of June Carter Cash in that exact same dress! Like, she found the actual dress.

Jojo  

Oooh. Yeah.

Sarah  

But I couldn't figure out which dress it was, because she wears two that are orange and green floral. [laughs]

Jojo  

"Which one?!"

Sarah  

And it's not this one, but they're later in the movie. So I think I got rid of the pictures because I was like, "I don't know which one it is." So I can't really hold this up and be like, "See?"

Jojo  

[laughs] Right. Right.

Sarah  

So that was frustrating.

Jojo  

I do love the floral motif that she has on a lot of her stuff.

Sarah  

Yeah, I like the colors that she wears too. She doesn't stick to certain colors.

Jojo  

Right. Right.

Sarah  

I would say generally it's pretty warm. She does wear a little bit of blue. But yeah, it's just like a nice... you know, wardrobe.

Jojo  

Fun. I would wear this skirt.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's cute.

Jojo  

If I wore skirts more often. [laughs]

Sarah  

I wear too many skirts. Like, when I go to thrift stores I go to the skirts first and I ended up with... I have so many of them, and I keep buying them because I love them. Anyway.

Jojo  

[laughs] They're great.

Sarah  

So this is her onstage singing later in the movie. I think we might be moving into late 50s at this point. And then I have a full body shot of this. So once again with a floral motif.

Jojo  

So cute!

Sarah  

I know, right? She's got a little bit of a bouffant happening.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And this is definitely more streamlined in silhouette than that frilly one was at the beginning. So she's moving away from her cartoony image and into more of a serious singer.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

This is her onstage again. Once again, could not find great picture. I found some on a mannequin.

Jojo  

So sad!

Sarah  

I think it was auctioned, so here's this.

Jojo  

So cute.

Sarah  

And I thought, looking at this picture of her onstage, that it was beaded.

Jojo  

Yeah, I was gonna say that's what I thought too.

Sarah  

Yeah, cuz it's sparkly. But I found this, and you can see that it's like a metallic embroidery?

Jojo  

Oh, yeah. It's almost like a trim.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's very sparkly, but it's not actually beads. It's the fabric.

Jojo  

I wonder if it's real metal, because you know how they used to have that on some of the trims?

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

That's probably what's creating that extra sparkle

Sarah  

Could totally be. Okay, so what's next? We're moving into.... Okay, I have this picture, it's called "John is a mess."

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

Because he's a mess. This is when he basically has lost everything, he had a breakdown on stage. He's drinking too much. He's doing drugs. Vivian has left him at this point. So he's living in this nasty apartment.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And he's wearing this, it looks like a tux shirt, because of the pleats.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah.

Sarah  

But it's clearly very... he hasn't showered, it's very yellowed. Looking pretty gross. And then... oh, I liked this. Because we got to see some period children's wear. This is an upsetting scene, as you can see, the children are crying. [laughs] But...

Jojo  

It's so funny to me, because it's always those little scenes of children that we're always like, "Okay, we HAVE to get these images." Because you just don't see them very often.

Sarah  

I love period children's wear!

Jojo  

I know. It's great.

Sarah  

Children look so cute in vintage clothes.

Jojo  

So cute. I can't wait.

Sarah  

I was at a party the other day and one of the kids running around was wearing... it looked like a little Oktoberfest dirndl, but it was vintage.

Jojo  

Yes!

Sarah  

It was like a three year old girl wearing a vintage dress.

Jojo  

Love that.

Sarah  

And I was like, "that girl looks so good."

Jojo  

On point, mom! On point.

Sarah  

I know. I was like, "you're doing it correctly." I love that. Yeah, I mean... I haven't anything to say about them. They're just cute. And I like seeing period kid's clothes.

Jojo  

Yeah. Yep. Agreed.

Sarah  

Okay, how am I doing on time? I'm doing great on time! Yay.

Jojo  

Woohoo!

Sarah  

This is Thanksgiving, later when Johnny is starting to get his act together, but hasn't quite. But he invites basically his parents and then June and her parents, and it ends up getting very awkward because his dad is very... his dad sucks, basically, his dad is really mean. But this is in the 60s, as you can see from the hair, and such. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yep.

Sarah  

And on the left here, this is Johnny's mom. So she's gone through a big transformation since we saw her in the 40s, of course. She has money. She's hopefully happier, even though her husband sucks.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then June in the middle is... oh, I have this dress. Here it is.

Jojo  

So beautiful.

Sarah  

It's pretty.

Jojo  

It's that lantern sleeve that I love again!

Sarah  

I know, we love a lantern sleeve.

Jojo  

So funny. I keep seeing that everywhere. I'm like, "just looks good every time I see it."

Sarah  

It does. And also, in my opinion, it's timeless.

Jojo  

Yeah, I agree. It's a really elegant look.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

Especially, I mean, most of the ones I've seen happen to be transparent or some kind of see-through material. So maybe I'm just a little more biased, but I just think it looks really nice. And it's just, I don't know, it's kind of secretive and seductive while also being classy.

Sarah  

Yeah, you're covered up, but you're not.

Jojo  

Right, exactly.

Sarah  

Totally. So this dress is, I think it's probably chiffon. It's this gorgeous burgundy. It looks so good with her brown hair.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And it's totally free of surface decoration, you know? So it's like her final sort of evolution into a more mature adult woman. And then, I would say, we talk a lot about how in period movies you can kind of tell what era they're made in, because they don't quite go all the way to the period.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And I think that we can see that in Reese's hair for a lot of the movie, and probably a little bit in the makeup too, because her makeup looks pretty modern for the time in a lot of the shots, like this one right here. I mean, she has a maybe a little liquid eyeliner on. And the lipstick is definitely pink. You know, that's definitely a 50s/60s color. But...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

I think the way she's styled, they clearly wanted to make sure ...like I said, the studio wanted to make sure that people saw her.

Jojo  

...It was a good enough balance that it still felt like it could relate to contemporary audience.

Sarah  

Exactly. They don't want to make... they don't want to alienate her from her audience by making her look too removed from the Reese that we know and love. So I think that that's a pretty good balance, actually, that they struck, because this hairstyle is pretty period looking. But it's also... it also looks kind of 2005, so there's that.

Jojo  

Yeah, seriously.

Sarah  

All right. Oh, I was close to cutting this picture. But I was like, "couldn't possibly do it." This coat.

Jojo  

I love it. Love it so much.

Sarah  

So good.

Jojo  

I do love a good pea coat. in general.

Sarah  

It's... I love all coats. I love codes from all periods. I think everybody looks good in coats. I like summer a lot, but I will say some of my best outfits involve a jacket, because I love jackets and coats.

Jojo  

Yeah. That's why I miss fall so much. All the pea coats you can wear.

Sarah  

This is when she she takes him to... she's basically helping him get his his life together. And she takes him to church. So here they are going to church. And he's kind of like, I don't know... I like a lot of his offstage wear and I would have pulled some of it but this movie stays really tight on like, heads and shoulders. So there weren't any good screencaps I could find of most of the stuff he wears offstage. So, you'll just have to trust me that a lot of it's really cute. [laughs]

Jojo  

I trust you, Sarah.

Sarah  

All right. And here is his freakin'... like, he's back. He's at the record label being like, "guess what? I'm gonna play a show at Folsom Prison." And they're like, "Say what?" And actually, I enjoyed this because there was a scene of him getting dressed. So... ta-da. Close up on that fabric. I love it.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.  Ooh, yeah.

Sarah  

Arianne said that while they had a small budget, the money they did spend was getting a lot of his stuff custom made. So...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...you can kind of tell, you know, it looks great, especially this outfit.

Jojo  

That's usually how we prioritize, you know. The lead character usually is who gets kind of the more custom made items, or at least the ones that are... a little more focus are put on them.

Sarah  

Exactly. And I think she probably saved a lot of money on shoes, because like I said, hardly any shots of anybody's full body in this movie. [laughs]

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Okay, and then here's him performing at Folsom. And I like this because of the the stark visual contrast between all of the inmates in blue, and then him in black in the middle. I just think it's a really effective picture.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah  

And then I have one last one. This is when they're performing on stage. And he proposes her onstage, which is a very sweet scene. But she also had said no to him so many times. Like, obviously, he knew that she was in love with him. And he could feel that and probably could feel that she wanted to marry him. But he also... it's also just a little bit like he pressures her into it. Just a tiny... it's still very sweet, though.

Jojo  

Juuust a little bit.

Sarah  

It's... Yeah.

Jojo  

I mean, anytime you do something that public.

Sarah  

Right, you're like...

Jojo  

They don't really have another option.

Sarah  

Exactly. You're like, "Oh, so you won't say yes on the tour bus. So you'll say yes onstage in front of hundreds of people." [both laugh] I like this outfit on June. I think it looks a little bit 2000s-y. But I wonder if it is vintage. And it just kind of happens to look contemporary?

Jojo  

Yeah, like maybe a repeated silhouette or something.

Sarah  

Yeah, exactly. But it's very nice. Oh, and then this is when we come to this picture, because this is them onstage in the 60s.

Jojo  

Oh, cute.

Sarah  

I know. As we can see, the hair; very different. They did not go for a full 60s bouffant on her.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

For reasons as we have discussed. But I love this little dress. Look at this kicky little skirt. So cute!

Jojo  

Very cute.

Sarah  

Okay, so the thing I just wanted to finish up saying, is I watched... like I said, I watched an interview with her. It was at a film festival of some kind, and it was her and James Mangold.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

The director. And she just brought up a couple points. And I was like, "let's chat about that a little bit." She talked a lot about how the wardrobe department is an actor's, basically, first foray into their character.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

It's often the first thing they do on the movie, having a costume fitting and meeting with the costume designer.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So lots of times, the movie actor is coming from another project, they're really busy. You know, this is the first chance they've had to kind of stand there and be like, "oh, who is this character? What did they look like? How do they stand?"

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So I just thought that was really interesting, that costumes are often their first chance to see themselves as the character.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And they also they find a lot of their physicality in costume fittings, how are they going to stand? How are they going to walk?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So I just thought that was a really good point. And probably something that average people don't necessarily know, is that like, the first thing is not a rehearsal, sometimes. Sometimes the first thing is costumes.

Jojo  

Yeah. And that happens often very late in the game, especially for theatre. So it's like, sometimes... I mean, they have been doing their own research into the character, but once they actually see themselves. And I had that conversation with a few actors too, where they're like, "I was getting into my character, and I was understanding them a little bit. But it wasn't until I got into the costume that I fully embodied, like, who this character was." So that's always a kind of rewarding moment, I feel like, for designers. Because it really does mean you've thought about it... I mean, you both have thought about it. And you've clearly made those choices very intentionally. But to see the actor really get into the character that you've created for them too is a really nice part of the collaboration, I think.

Sarah  

Totally. And things can change, obviously, that's what fittings are for.

Jojo  

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah  

And so something that you as a designer might think was perfect for the character, the actor might be like, "Well, I'm not sure, you know, if this is right, because of these reasons," and then you find, and you explore it together. And that's how it should be. It should be a dialogue and a relationship between you--the designer--the actor, and the director. It should be a collaboration and that's what I love about it.

Jojo  

Right. And that's what makes it so collaborative, is that you are having an open dialogue about it, and that it's not just "you just do whatever I want." Although that sometimes may be the case, if you've had a really extensive conversation with a director. But yeah, I think that's very important. So that's cool.

Sarah  

Yeah. And then the other thing she talks about is like, she said that she specializes in distracting actors during fittings. And I was like, "that's interesting." Because actors can often feel really objectified.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And I think it can be dehumanizing, especially, to be in a costume fitting when people are staring at your body, talking about your body, like you aren't in the room.

Jojo  

Right?

Sarah  

So it can be really hard when you make your living off of partially how you look.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So she said she likes to just chat with them and get them out of their head and get them out of focusing on the flaws they see in the mirror and just really work on her relationship with them in the fitting. And I was like, "yeah, that's a good thing to do." Because you don't want them to feel like they're just a mannequin being dressed.

Jojo  

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like sometimes those are the most.... Well, I guess I'm a little more biased, because most of the costume designers that I know, that I think are really successful, are the ones that do build that rapport with their actors, and sometimes become friends with their actors, because they've built up that relationship. And they've built that trust. And that's also-- I mean, you never know, an actor sometimes can be the one getting you the next job, too.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Even though people don't necessarily think about it that way. But you know, it's such a small industry, you really don't ever know who's going to get you your next job.

Sarah  

Totally.

Jojo  

So I think building that relationship with whoever you're working with, and in this case with actors, it's the most intimate relationship that you can have. It really does go a long way, when you're able to build that trust. I mean, you know, Arianne is the perfect example with Madonna, building up that trust and being that person that becomes her go-to. That's how she got a lot of her other work.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So it's kind of a cool... like, you get to see sort of how the relationship changes and shifts and builds and still kind of benefits both parties, because of that trust. So that's always important.

Sarah  

Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Jojo  

So excitiing.

Sarah  

So that's "Walk the Line". And those are my little side tangents that I was like, "let's chat about this, this will be fun."

Jojo  

Good sidewalk conversations. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Yeah. We like sort of diving into stuff that, you know, average, people who don't necessarily work in the industry might not think about or know. And it's all about shedding light and opening people up to what they might not know about.

Jojo  

Yeah. And hopefully that's, you know, that's what makes our podcast interesting, too, is...

Sarah  

I hope so too. [laughs]

Jojo  

... hearing more of that stuff. And even though it is costume related, but yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Opening it up to other things, because we don't just live in a vacuum of costume.

Sarah  

Totally, it's not just about the pretty dresses, even though it we like those too.

Jojo  

Yeah, very true.

Sarah  

All right.

Jojo  

Okay, let me...

Sarah  

Are you ready? What's your movie?

Jojo  

I'm doing "The Impossible," which... I'm just trying to get my stuff loaded up. So I can see my notes, as well as my pictures.

Sarah  

Yeah, no problem.

Jojo  

And I don't have a ton of pictures for this. Because again, very similar to Sarah, even though this movie actually got quite a few nominations, and Oscar wins, there were just really not a ton of pictures of this. And I mean, some of it is kind of understandable. Because it is a movie that is about a natural disaster. And so, you know, a lot of the costumes are naturally very, very distressed.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And it's not like it's some beautiful thing that you see on a mannequin that you can put on afterwards. It's really more about kind of seeing the realistic, I guess, and natural way that costumes can break down over time. So I kind of wanted to choose it for that reason, because as many of you know, I am really into distressing costumes. And I've talked about this in the past. So this, unfortunately... there were not a lot of pictures of all kind of the step by steps, which I wish that I could have gotten. But I'm going to try and at least get some kind of important beats throughout the movie, where we can actually see how the costume kind of changed, at least. And sort of how the the costume designer-- it was actually multiple--how they were sort of coming up with, you know, where these outfits came from and that kind of thing.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Okay, so really quick, just talking about some of the background for "The Impossible". The director is J.A. Bay... Bayona? I think that's how you say his name. I believe he's actually a Spanish--like, from Spain--director. I don't know exactly what his ethnicity is, but he did projects like "The Orphanage," which was his directorial debut. He also did "A Monster Calls," which I've never...

Sarah  

Oh yeah.

Jojo  

...I've never actually seen the movie but I have a whole book on all of the the creative visual effects that they did for that movie, which is phenomenal.

Sarah  

I've read the book that that's based on, but I have not seen the movie.

Jojo  

Okay. Yeah. And then he also did "Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom". So one of the newer ones.

Sarah  

Okay! Wow.

Jojo  

So his choices of what he directs is very, very eclectic and very versatile. So that was kind of interesting. But his directorial resume actually is not super long. But the fact is, even though he hasn't done a ton of projects, they've all been pretty big and well recognized at least. And then in terms of the costume designer, it was actually three people. And again, they're all... none of them are very big designers. Anne Bingeman, I think is how you say her name. She did "Deception". And she also did the the comedy "Bachelorette".

Sarah  

Oh yeah, I've seen that.

Jojo  

Yeah. Which I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." Very different movies.

Sarah  

Did we watch that together?

Jojo  

We might have! I feel like we did.

Sarah  

With Jessica?

Jojo  

Oh yeah, I think we did.

Sarah  

[both laugh] I think we did!

Jojo  

That's so funny, because I was like, "I know I watched it with somebody."

Sarah  

That's really funny.

Jojo  

And then Sparka Lee, which I thought was a very interesting name, literally spelled "spark" with an A at the end. She's mostly a costume supervisor and assistant. And I think that was kind of her role in this as well.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But she did "The Constant Gardener". She was an assistant, I believe, for "Resident Evil," "Speed Racer," "The Reader," and then she was a supervisor for a lot of "The Queen's Gambit".

Sarah  

Oh, nice.

Jojo  

So she's probably had a little bit more of a recognizable career than the other two. And then the third costume designer was Maria Reyes. And she does a lot more foreign TV shows. So I don't think... there was a lot of stuff that I didn't recognize, I wrote them down. But they're not things-- they're not titles that I recognize. They're "Merli," "Oh Happy Day," which is also a TV show. And then "La torre de Suso," which I think is also a movie. But again, all titles that I was like, "I've never heard of any of these things." But maybe it's just because it's in a different country. And I've just haven't seen them.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So yeah, so that's just a little bit of background. Just to tell you a little bit more about the actual event that this was based on... it follows a tourist family who ends up heading to Thailand, and this was back in like 2004. So there was a huge tsunami, which is actually... it said that it was one of the largest tsunamis in record, even to today. And that occurred in the Indian Ocean. So basically it pretty much wiped out the entire coast of Thailand in 2004. So there were, let's see, what were the statistics that I wrote down? It was considered the deadliest tsunami in recorded history. It was a 200 foot wave. It wiped away entire towns and the lives of over 200,000 people across 14 countries.

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

So this thing was huge. And it was traveling from Indonesia. But this this particular movie focuses mostly on Thailand. And then the death toll in Thailand was nearly 5400, including 2000 foreign tourists.

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

So this focuses on one specific tourist family who, miraculously, all five of the family members ended up surviving. But there were obviously a lot of other tourist deaths that were also happening at this time.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So just to give you a little bit more background, because again, I don't have a ton of pictures. But I was curious how well they translated, I guess, what happened in real life versus what happened to this family, because it is a very isolated event. And actually, it only took place over about two days.

Sarah  

Oh, wow.

Jojo  

But of course, the entire time during the movie, you're just like... I was like crying and tense and all these other emotions, just because I was like, "I don't know what's going to happen to these people, even though I kind of do."

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And also you're just watching them almost drown multiple times. And I think he spends a lot of time focusing on them underwater, getting hit and all this debris and everything. So of course, all those moments, you're kind of just sitting in tension, waiting, and hoping that they're going to resurface and and be able to breathe and survive. But the original family... and this is what I wanted to kind of touch base on, because I was a little confused. And there is a lot of critiquing about how they portrayed this movie, because the original family that survived was actually Spanish.

Sarah  

Oh.

Jojo  

And of course, all the actors that they cast for this were all well known white actors. And I think there was a back and forth of like, well, they chose these white actors. And there's a lot of white savior complex in there, even though there is you know, obviously they were in Thailand, and so they took a lot of the locals to portray, you know, the hospitals and the nurses and all the people that ended up helping. But the big critique was that it was essentially at the very end of it, the white family that survived while they didn't really focus on how much it actually affected the Thai people in the aftermath.

Sarah  

Do you know if if the family, the original family, was Spanish from Spain? Or were they Hispanic?

Jojo  

I believe they were from Spain. So yeah, not Hispanic, sorry.

Sarah  

There are white people in Spain but like...

Jojo  

Correct.

Sarah  

...it still would have been better to cast actual Spanish people.

Jojo  

Yeah. And I mean, it's very clear, the original lady was named Maria Belón. She was a physician. And then her husband's name is Enrique Álvarez. So you know, it's interesting the choices that they made. And you know, in justification, they actually did have the original Maria Belón come back, and literally be an advisor on--and guider on--the entire film.

Sarah  

That's good.

Jojo  

So she had a lot of, like... she was telling a lot of her own experience. And they said that their first interview with her... because I think she was also trying to figure out if these filmmakers were the right people to tell her story. Her first interview with them was actually five hours long, just her telling what happened.

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

And I was like, "five hours?" Like, I can't even imagine. So a lot of, actually, what happened to Naomi Watts in the movie did in fact happen to Maria, in very much the same way. Even the way that the tsunami originally, or initially, approached them or attacked them. Like, they said that they actually had the family members standing in the same exact spot at that resort, where their family was. And I was like, "yikes." Like, I don't-- as an actor...

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

...I don't know that I would.... Like, that would have been so mentally like... I'm not ready for this.

Sarah  

That's a... that's heavy. That's like...

Jojo  

It is.

Sarah  

...that's a lot.

Jojo  

Definitely. And they actually, so they were from Japan originally. Sorry-- they lived in Japan for Álvarez's job. And then they ended up going to Thailand for Christmas. So they were actually there for holiday.

Sarah  

It was Christmas time?

Jojo  

Yeah. So crazy.

Sarah  

That is heartbreaking.

Jojo  

And then they said that in terms of the actual injuries that she suffered--because I was also curious about how much of that they translated--Belón apparently suffered severe thigh and chest injuries, which is also what they did in the movie for Naomi Watts. So like, very, very much exactly like what she experienced was what they kind of recreated.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Both parents ended up being separated from their children. So they had three sons, Lucas, Simón, and Tomás were the original names. They changed them to very white names of Lucas, Simon and Thomas.

Sarah  

Ooh.

Jojo  

And then even Enrique, they changed to Henry. Maria, they kept as Maria. But their last name was actually Bennett instead of, you know, Maria Belón and Álvarez.

Sarah  

That's...

Jojo  

So like that part of it, I was a little bit like, "uhhhh..."

Sarah  

How do you excuse that? Like, how do you... we wanted to get the movie made, and we didn't think that they would fund a movie with no white people in it?

Both  

[editor's note: our apologies, we do know that Spain is primarily Caucasian. Our use of "white people" in these exchanges is incorrect. We meant that instead of casting people who looked like the familiy--dark hair and olive skin--they cast very fair people and Anglicized their names, essentially changing the fact that the family is Spanish.]

Jojo  

Right. And I think that was the one person that critiqued it. They were like, "why did they choose not to use a, you know, a more well known celebrity that was from Spain?"

Sarah  

There are a lot, yeah.

Jojo  

Like, I think they had mentioned Penélope Cruz as an option, you know, things like that. And it was interesting because Maria, the original lady, actually said that when she talked to Naomi Watts, she felt the most... like she could relate to her the most when they were talking about the role.

Sarah  

Okay.

Jojo  

So I was like, "Oh, that's interesting that she connected the most with a white lady to represent her." Like...

Sarah  

Yeah, I'm glad that basically she gave her blessing on it.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Like, I'm glad she's not upset by the decision. Yeah, but it is kind of bad optics, you know?

Jojo  

Very much so, especially now. I mean, this was created a couple years ago, but like...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...you know, it's just weird to think about it now, when everything is so much more sensitive about that.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Okay. So let's see. One thing that I did want to mention, Naomi Watts quoted Belón when they spoke, she said, "Belón felt completely sure of her instinct." And this was like, during the time of the tsunami, everything that happened. She said, "Nothing got in the way of her instinct, and she'd never had that feeling before." So I think that was something that really helped Naomi kind of get into her character as well. Which you definitely do see that, like they make Naomi a little bit more fearful, I think, in the movie. Like she... when they start off on the plane flying to Thailand. She's already nervous about all the bumpiness on the plane.

Sarah  

Hmm.

Jojo  

And then when she goes into the actual... when she actually has to save her son, or try to reach her son, there's a little bit more of a jump of her anxiety, becoming a mother and trying to save her children. So moving on to costumes.

Sarah  

Costumes!

Jojo  

Sorry, I spent way too long talking about that, but I figured I would at least show some background. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah, it's good to have that information.

Jojo  

Before we talked about it.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I wanted to show you the original family. And you can tell they're... they look very Spanish, like from Spain. Like, all their features are very "from Spain." And then you have the white family that represents them. So... so yeah, it's quite a big difference. Ewan McGregor plays Henry.

Sarah  

[laughs] I'm sorry.

Jojo  

Naomi Watts plays Maria, obviously... I know.

Sarah  

We couldn't even put them in dark hair? Like, we couldn't even dye their hair? Okay. All right.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah  

They had to be blonde.

Jojo  

And then we had, interestingly enough, this is actually Tom Holland.

Sarah  

Oh my god!

Jojo  

So funny, because I was like, "Oh, yeah, I forgot he was in this movie!"

Sarah  

Little baby.

Jojo  

He's so, so young in this movie. And he plays our oldest child, Lucas. And then we have our middle child, our little blond, blue eyed kid, who I believe is Simon. And then our youngest is Thomas. So I kind of wanted to pull this picture out, just because throughout the movie, the designers actually kept a really, really tight palette for them. So it was a lot of really nice earth tones. They're mostly in... like, if it's white, it's a kind of cream. I mean, this is probably the lightest white, and it's only the mom.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

The rest of the time, most of the guys are either in blues or greens, you'll see a lot of kind of deep grays, or kind of cooler tone grays. So I think they really did a good job of kind of sticking to that.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And then... and this is all, of course, before everything happens.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

This is a little out of order. But this was the original outfit that Maria is in. And this is pretty much the outfit she's in the entire time she's suffering through this tsunami. So she starts off, obviously, in this white tank top and the blue shorts. And of course, throughout the movie, there's so much that's happened. She's like, drowning in muddy water. So this totally looks like a completely different outfit by the end of this.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

But this is sort of where she starts.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Okay, and then... so this was actually supposed to be before the other one. But this was basically one of the nights before the tsunami hits. They actually have a little lantern, which is very famous in Thailand, they do the lantern release.

Sarah  

Oh yeah. Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Where they're seeing the lanterns fly into the sky. And this is kind of their last calm and nice moment as a family. So I love that, again, it's still earth tones, but these beautiful greens that the costume designers decided to use here really kind of ties them into the the natural setting of Thailand as well.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

She actually ends up putting these kind of tropical flowers in her hair. So it's this very tropical feeling, you know, they are on vacation.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So I did love that they kind of tied everyone together very tightly, in terms of color. Alright, so...

Sarah  

Oh boy. Here we go.

Jojo  

...after the tsunami hits, you can already see her white tank top has turned yellow.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

She's already covered in mud. And even her blue shorts have kind of turned sort of a gray. It looks like they've kind of given her some... almost like salt stains.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Because this is after the water has kind of died down. But she's sort of still... kind of trying to find her way to help. They end up picking up this kid, which apparently this also happened in real life. They actually found a stray kid that they helped for a little while named Daniel.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

And in the movie they totally just make it a happy ending where he finds his dad, and they see him reunite with his dad. In the real situation, apparently Daniel was never found again. Like, somehow he got separated from them a second time and they never found out what happened to him.

Sarah  

Oh, no.

Jojo  

So it's like... it's just this really heartbreaking moment.

Sarah  

That's too dark, too dark for the movie, I guess.

Jojo  

It really is, it really is.

Sarah  

Oh, that's so sad.

Jojo  

And you can kind of see even with Lucas, he, you know, he's still got that kind of blue swimming shorts. I mean, like I said, there's not a ton of costume, interesting things here because they're in swimwear.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

They're at the pool when the tsunami hits. So it's like, very kind of bare minimum clothing.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But you do start seeing how much this kind of changes, even just seeing all of the different details of what water does to our clothes, after being in a muddy tsunami. And the other thing, too, that's interesting is she was wearing a swimming suit under this when everything happened, and somehow the swimsuit has just sort of disappeared.

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

Because during this time, she actually... underwater, gets stabbed in this, in the rib cage. And also a whole chunk of her back thigh is just missing. So there's a scene where-- I didn't want to show it because it was just very, very graphic.

Sarah  

That's fine. [laughs]

Jojo  

But you see the kid walking behind her, and he just sees a chunk of her leg just flapping down and he's like, "I can't."

Sarah  

Ugh!

Jojo  

He's like, "I can look at you right now," and so she makes him walk in front of her, so he doesn't have to look at it. And that's why she has this little thing tied around her leg, to like, keep the skin up. And I'm like, "oh my god."

Sarah  

Oh god. [laughs]

Jojo  

But yes, it's a lot of... and again, this is where it kind of gets down to the nitty gritty of like, this costume crafts person had to understand what each of these steps were. Like, everything that hits her has to somehow show up on her clothes.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

So you know, you start seeing the blood kind of dripping and staining from the side-- the side injury, but then you also see the blood kind of getting on some of her pants.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

It's just like, I don't know, it's so much to think about. Especially in a natural disaster, this where literally everything is making you dirty. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yes, that's the daunting part of distressing, I think. Like, you must have to completely storyboard it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then that's how you figure out how many duplicates you need. And you must have to like, just lay it all out.

Jojo  

Yeah. And I... you know, even in this, it's like, they must have had to have, you know, 15 or 16 copies of this shirt alone.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Like, even just for a 20 minute segment, just because she goes through so much trauma, and she's still wading through water even after it kind of subsides. So like, there's still things that are happening, because she's still trudging through terrain, so...

Sarah  

Well, and then you're like, "Okay, so how many times does she have to do to the take," you know.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

"Do we need a fresh one at the beginning of every take, so that she can get wet?"

Jojo  

Right, exactly.

Sarah  

So yeah, it's so much to think about.

Jojo  

And that also makes me wonder why we have, you know... it's probably why they had three costume people.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And also why they had a supervisor in addition to, you know, maybe a more seasoned designer, because someone who's a supervisor understands more of that craft stuff. And usually, they'll either at least have someone on hand that they know who can do that, or they're often the ones doing some of the craft stuff.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So it's, you know, it's sort of interesting how they pulled together their team. Like, it makes a lot more sense when you're looking at the amount of craziness that has to happen to these costumes in terms of breaking them down.

Sarah  

Yeah. And you need people on set who know exactly what is supposed to be happening when.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So I think that is... that's kind of probably what a supervisor would do too, right? Is be, like...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...in charge of knowing which one is for which scene.

Jojo  

Right, right, and making sure everything is organized in such a way that they don't get those mixed up.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But yeah. Okay.

Sarah  

Wow, oh no.

Jojo  

So this is the next stage. She gets basically dragged through... I mean, there's quite a few things that happen in between this, of course, but a big part of this--the original story, too--was that a Thai man actually ended up dragging her through the mud. And like, this is so hard to watch, because she's just screaming in pain the entire time. And they just-- they're just dragging her through grass, and like...

Sarah  

Ohh.

Jojo  

...mud and all these other things. And she... you know, it's the back of her leg. So it's just getting ripped up even more. But that's his only way of trying to get her to a hospital and get her to somewhere safe.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And you see her son in the front. Like, it's interesting, because clearly the people making this movie did not want to hurt children or make them look hurt. So like, the two youngest kids, don't look distressed or dirty or anything at all.

Sarah  

[laughs] Not bloody.

Jojo  

You see maybe one or two scenes where Tom Holland gets kind of beat up under the water, but you know, in terms of the amount of pain and injury that he sustained, it's much, much less than...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...what Naomi Watts goes through.

Sarah  

People don't want to see kids getting hurt.

Jojo  

It's so true. So yeah, they definitely kept them pretty clean in general. But she, again, she gets stabbed right in the side. And then it's really gross. Like, they actually show her boob all sliced up underneath. And so, you know, her son's obviously freaking out because she's like, falling apart in front of him.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And so she ends up having to tie one of her tank top straps to the other side, just to, like, cover herself.

Sarah  

Uh huh.

Jojo  

So yeah, it's just, you know, this looks so horrible here. But again, it just shows you this is sort of the next few steps that our craftsperson had to pay attention to.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

She's getting dragged through the mud. She's also got all the blood on top, she's probably bleeding more because she's being dragged through other stuff. So it's just all those things that you have to pay attention to. Because as humans, that's what would happen in real life.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So yes, so she ends up wearing pretty much this outfit for the rest of the time until she's she's able to get to the hospital.

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

Okay, so Tom Holland. Obviously when he gets to the hospital, somehow he finds a shirt. Or like, they end up... so when they get to the actual Thai village, where it's a little safer, they actually have a-- it's basically like all the local people end up coming and, you know, putting... they end up giving her a shirt. They end up, you know, giving Lucas another shirt. But one of the reasons I wanted to pull this image is not just because it's like, "Okay, great, now we have a costume change." But it kind of also goes to show the kind of clothes that are overseas. Because a lot of times, overseas countries do end up just getting, essentially, the waste that America gets rid of.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So it's interesting that we're looking at graphics that look a little bit more American, but it's almost like it's faded out, or it's not quite there anymore.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Like these are old clothes that have been discarded from elsewhere.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I kinda want to just pull that in. Because I mean, it just says... even with how kind of dingy it looks, it tells you a lot about what's actually in the rest of the world, and how other people manufacture clothing, or even get clothing from other places. Or wealthier places.

Sarah  

Yeah, I think, you know, Americans at large don't necessarily think about what happens to our clothes when...

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

...you know, they can't even be sold in Goodwill or whatever.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

That's what happens, is that we ship them to other countries and just... make it their problem instead of ours.

Jojo  

Yeah. Yeah. And like, he gets this as a new shirt, but you can see how torn up the collar is, and how the sleeves are all torn up.

Sarah  

Yeah. And the graphic is faded.

Jojo  

So yes, I just thought that was a really interesting way to kind of introduce that.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Okay, so then the second half of the movie, they kind of go... I mean, because the first half of the movie you're really focusing on how Naomi is able to find her son, and they stay together, and how they're able to get to the hospital.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And hers is probably the much more traumatic experience, because I think she obviously went through a lot more injuries. Somehow, Ewan McGregor stays fairly intact and untouched through all of this. Which is weird. But he's also in the pool with his kids when he starts.

Sarah  

Oh.

Jojo  

And I wanted to pull this image, even though it's the dirty version of this, because he has these pretty standard Hawaiian blue swimming trunks. But in the beginning, his kids are just making fun of how ugly they are. [laughs] And so it's just funny that, you know, it... obviously, it's not a huge thing, but then they just get so dirty and ripped up by the time he gets through the tsunami. And yet, somehow, the only injuries he sustains are maybe a few scars here and there on his face.

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

And when they find him, or when he starts his kind of portion of the story, he's still back at the resort. So somehow, he's survived enough after the water has kind of subsided, to still remain at the resort. And he's somehow found his two kids. So like, apparently, they were also clinging to a tree. And that's how he found both of them. Like, they were both, you know, just holding on.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And so at this point, the water has subsided. The rest of the movie, his goal is to just basically find his wife and his kids, because he feels like they're alive, even though no one else seems to think so. So I just wanted to pull that image really quick, because that's mostly what he's in until he's able to find a shirt.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Later on, this is still him looking for his wife, he's kind of talking to his kids and trying to convince his middle child that he has to take care of Thomas, because you know, they're going to go somewhere safe to the top of the mountain so that it's far away from the water. And then he's going to keep looking for his wife. So basically, this is sort of like a "grow up, you gotta man up and take care of your younger brother."

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Because he's also the kid that's afraid of everything at the beginning of the movie.

Sarah  

Aww. I relate to that.

Jojo  

Okay, so moving on. This is actually... I believe this is one of my last ones. I wanted to pull this because she's one of the few characters that kind of gets a little bit more screen time, other than the guy that drags Naomi Watts through the mud. And she actually does speak pretty fluent English, because she's one of the ones that finally kind of is able to converse with Lucas when he's trying to find... at a certain point in the hospital, he loses his mom temporarily. So she finally is able to converse with him and calm him down and try to help him find his mom again. And so she's kind of... it's still a really, really small role. And again, another big critique is that the local people just aren't given much of a character in this movie. But she ends up kind of having this big long conversation with him and she ends up kind of being his trustworthy, like, go-to nurse.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So she has a very small part, but you do see her represented a little bit more. And I kind of just wanted to show, again, their uniform is clearly not pristine, like we are used to seeing in the States.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

It's clearly like, this is the shirt that she got. And it's probably whatever "Goodwill" version that she got out of wherever she could find. And that's their uniform for the hospital.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I just thought that was interesting, to sort of represent kind of what the local people were wearing. And I didn't do enough research to find out how accurate this actually was.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Or if this is just something she wore on her own, versus an actual, you know, hospital issued uniform.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And then last one.. they talked about-- like, I just kind of pulled this image because again, they haven't really changed. But this is sort of where they finally find each other. And this is after a very long like hour and a half of the movie. So within that last half hour, Lucas finally finds his two brothers, and then they finally find their dad.

Sarah  

Aww.

Jojo  

So there was this really heartwarming moment. And again, it's sort of like a double edged sword, right? There's so many other people that die during the tsunami that aren't focused on in this movie. And yet, the white family is the one that survives. So I think that was one of the biggest critiques of this movie, of how whitewashed everything was.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But you know, it's at the end of it, it's still a very heartwarming happy ending, I think. Unfortunately, audiences don't... well, I shouldn't say "unfortunately," but audiences don't really like to see a sad ending for things like this, where it is a natural disaster that's totally out of your control.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

But it is also one of those things where, you know, it makes you wonder, what about all those other families that didn't make it? So... Yeah, anyways, that was the last thing I had for this movie. Again, a really hard thing to watch.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But I did like that they at least brought the original survivor into the discussion and didn't just try and like, fake it or make something happen that wasn't really happening.

Sarah  

I feel like if I was making this movie, which... I don't make movies, so whatever. But I would probably try to tell a bunch of family's stories, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Instead of... you can get the real life testimony from the survivors and try to do justice to their actual story.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

But you could also add in some side characters who are on their own sort of struggle and journey, and maybe not all of them have happy endings, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Like, you could tell the story in a way that was sensitive to the actual family who survived this. And then... but also sensitive to everybody else who didn't find their family.

Jojo  

Right. Which... I think, you know, they did do a little bit of that.

Sarah  

Yeah?

Jojo  

When Lucas is running through the hospital. Because while his mom is laying kind of in the hospital ready for surgery, he ends up... just because he doesn't know what to do with himself. So he ends up running around the hospital, and all these people end up reaching out to him and being like, you know, "have you seen this person?"

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

Like, most of them are parents asking for their sons, or their kids.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And so he starts going around, he starts taking their names down, and walking around the hospital and just yelling out names, being like, "anybody recognize this name?" So there is a little bit of that, that I think they tried to throw in there to like, redeem some of it.

Sarah  

[laughs] Yeah.

Jojo  

But yeah, you know, it is one of those things where I think you see maybe two families reunite-- including that kid Daniel, who in real life, we never find out what actually happens to him. But there is another family who... the son and the father get reunited, because Lucas ends up finding him.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And then there's another mom who also goes, like... she has a similar situation and ends up having to go into surgery kind of right next to Maria's character. And you never find out what happens to her. Like, she goes into surgery. And she, I think she writes her name on Maria's arm, so that she won't forget her name, because she was like, "I have a family too. And I just want to say bye to them one last time before... I don't know if I'm going to survive this surgery," kind of thing.

Sarah  

Oh, wow.

Jojo  

And then she goes into surgery, and you never see her come back out. So you know, there's a lot of unfinished stories, which, you know, I think they tried to do that. Which is probably why this movie lasted two hours. Like, I forgot that that was long it was. [laughs] And I was like, "how are they going to make a movie about a tsunami last two hours?" [both laugh] But you know, they did it. So... so yes, it was interesting to see how they were able to kind of translate some of that. And like, show all of it. I think, you know, again, at the end of the day, I'm kind of like, "what was the reasoning behind switching to a white family when it didn't have to be done that way?"

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Like, you know, it's one thing if you're resonating with that particular actress. But like, they could have even kept her husband, you know, Spanish. Or... I don't know, something like that.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

I'm not a filmmaker. So who knows? But...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...but yes, it does make me wonder what their choices are, what their motivations behind those choices were.

Sarah  

It's hard to justify that, you know, in a way that really makes a lot of sense. Other than...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

"...we were worried about money. We were worried that people wouldn't pay to see a movie about people who weren't white," which is like... [grimace sound] [laughs]

Jojo  

Right. And then last fun fact I wanted to share was when they did the tsunami, apparently he built a water tank. And that's how they filmed the whole movie. I think it was very similar... I can't remember the other movie you said that they did that for. But there was another one.

Sarah  

"Parasite"?

Jojo  

Yes. Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah, I just transcribed that one.

Jojo  

They built a water tank. And like, they just... you know, they kind of just did most of their swimming in there.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And then they just added some digital, you know, extra effects or visual effects afterwards for the extra stuff. But I was like, "That's so crazy," because I can't imagine trying to film. He tried to use as much real water as possible, though.

Sarah  

Oh, wow.

Jojo  

He was like, "I wanted it to be as authentic as possible." So a lot of the tidal waves that come in, and things like that, all of that happened for real. And I was like, "yikes," that's... that's so crazy and scary. Like, I can't imagine.

Sarah  

Yes, I feel like that would be very hard. But also I think about actors and I'm like, "a movie where you're wet the whole time?" That just has to suck to shoot.

Jojo  

Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Sarah  

Just wet for two months.

Jojo  

And where you have to constantly change costumes, just to make sure you're continuous. Like...

Sarah  

They're like, dumping buckets on you before they start. Ugh.

Jojo  

Yep, yep. So yeah, must have been a very grueling process. For sure.

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah.

Jojo  

But yeah, that's my coverage of "The Impossible."

Sarah  

Great job.

Jojo  

Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah  

I'm glad you covered that, because I am glad I know about that movie now. But that's the kind of movie that would stress me out deeply to watch. So now I got the experience of watching it without having to actually watch it. [both laugh]

Jojo  

So funny. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I will definitely say, the scene where she reunites with her son--and she's trying to get back to him because they're so far apart--and they see each other and they're both screaming for each other, but they can't get close enough to each other. And there's a whole scene where they're reaching across a mattress, but they can't touch hands, because it's too far away. And they're still also trying to avoid debris under the water that they can't see. And I'm just like, "this is so stressful!" And I feel like I don't know what I'd do if this was me, and my parents. Or like, me and a child that I cared about. [laughs]

Sarah  

I hope we never have to find out what that's like.

Jojo  

Agreed. Agreed. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Oh, man.

Jojo  

But yes. So yeah, that's our coverage of true event movies.

Sarah  

Very different films we picked, from each other. [laughs]

Jojo  

Absolutely.

Sarah  

That's good. We like to keep it spicy. Keep it fresh.

Jojo  

That's true. It's very true.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Keep your interest peaked.

Sarah  

Exactly. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Oh, man. Well.

Sarah  

Okay.

Jojo  

Thank you so much, Sarah, that was so much fun.

Sarah  

Thank you, JoJo.

Jojo  

Thank you guys for joining us. And again, if you have any comments or questions or just other things you want to add, maybe more information about either of our movies that maybe we didn't cover, please feel free to add or comment on Instagram.

Sarah  

Yes! Totally.

Jojo  

We are behind on YouTube. So I will get back on that this week. Sorry. It's been a crazy month. But thank you for being patient with us.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

And we look forward to hearing all of your comments and notes and questions and everything else.

Sarah  

Yes, we appreciate your patience as we, you know, try to fit doing this podcast around our regular lives. [laughs]

Jojo  

So true. Well, thanks again and we'll see you on the next one.

Sarah  

See ya. Bye.

Jojo  

Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 20: The Birdcage & The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert

Please consult these links for accompanying images: The Birdcage: Instagram, Pinterest Priscilla: Instagram, Pinterest

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo 

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

And I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo

Hello, hello. And welcome back!

Sarah  

Hi! Welcome back. Nice to have you here.

Jojo  

Yes, definitely. Hopefully you guys have all been doing well since two weeks ago. It feels like an eon ago.

Sarah  

But it also snuck up on us, because we were like...

Jojo  

It did!

Sarah  

..."oh, god, we have to record!"

Jojo  

"Oh yeah, that's this week!" So funny.

Sarah  

We're gonna be more on top of it. It's gonna be great. [both laugh]

Jojo  

I know, we've already tried to schedule for the next recording ahead of time.

Sarah  

Yes. Yes. And we're not doing two today, so we won't get punchy toward the end. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yes. Which is our norm. 

Sarah  

Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Jojo  

All right. So Sarah, you want to tell us what our theme is today?

Sarah  

Absolutely. So we're doing a late Pride Month theme, because technically, this is coming out in July. But I think that pride is year round. There doesn't have to just be a month for it. So we we watched a couple of classic gay movies, basically. Yeah. And we're really excited to talk about them, you know, because it's important to.... Well, I personally think I watch a lot of stuff that references both of these movies. So like, it's good to know where those references come from, for sure.

Jojo  

It's so funny. Yeah, I will say I don't necessarily watch stuff that references these. But for my movie, at least, I've heard it referenced in many other ways so often. So I am starting today. 

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

So I guess I can introduce my movie, I will be covering "The Birdcage," the 1996 version with Nathan Lane and Robin Williams. And actually, this is based on "La Cage aux Folles." I think that's how you say it. I am not French. [laughs]

Sarah  

Sounds great. Oui oui. [laughs]

Jojo  

Which is basically how I heard it, because that's the one that's really well known. It's originally a French-- I believe a French play.

Sarah  

I think so. 

Jojo  

Or a musical? I can't remember if it's French, I have it somewhere in my notes. So I'm sure I'll come across them later. But that's what this was based off of. And the director, Mike Nichols, who was also very famous in his time...

Sarah  

He was very famous, yeah.

Jojo  

I was not as familiar with him. But of course, he was part of an improv stand up comedy act with Elaine May in the 50s and 60s, so they were really big comedy duo. And so he was a pretty big deal when this was made. So when Robin Williams signed on to the project with him, it was also kind of a huge deal for all the actors involved as well. So there's some some cool background information that I found about the movie. And it is actually their 25 year anniversary this year, I believe-- that this movie was made.

Wow, great timing on our part!

I know! I was like, "Oh, that's perfect timing." I think they actually made a bigger deal about it when it was the 20 year anniversary. 

Sarah  

Sure. Yeah.

Jojo  

So like, I didn't necessarily find a ton of articles about the 25th. But I just thought that was interesting. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

So again, directed by Mike Nichols. He really wanted to do a kind of very American version of "La Cage," so this was kind of his take at that. He's directed "Charlie Wilson's War," "Closer"... he did an "Angels in America" TV miniseries. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And then he's also done some great classics back in the day, like "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" 

Sarah  

Oh, wow. 

Jojo  

In 1966, like, way back when.

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

And then in 1970, the original "Catch 22" was also directed by him, and then he also did "The Graduate" in 1967. So...

Sarah  

Is he still alive? 

Jojo  

Ah, you know, that's a good question. I did not check that, which I probably should have. 

Sarah  

Hold on, lemme Google real quick.

Jojo  

But it's kind of crazy... I mean,, again, I didn't necessarily have this kind of previous attachment to Mike Nichols. 

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But just hearing about all of these movies that I clearly know very well--and are really huge classics--it's pretty amazing, what he's done. And the interesting thing about this movie is that he really wanted to get improv actors, right. So when he hired Robin Williams, and he originally actually was going to hire Steve Martin for the role... 

Sarah  

Oh, wow! 

Jojo  

...that Robin Williams played. 

Sarah  

Oh, wow. 

Jojo  

And then scheduling didn't work out. But he wanted them both to be able to improv whatever they wanted in this movie. 

Sarah  

Cool!

Jojo  

And the only rule he had even, after he got Nathan Lane, as well... it was the same rule. The only big rule he had was that they always had to do at least one take just straight from the script. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And then everything else was just, they could improv whatever they wanted. Which I was like, "That's insane!" Like, I can't even imagine as a-- you know, as someone who's trying to follow a script, especially nowadays you have like a script supervisor, right? 

Sarah  

Oh god, yeah.

Jojo  

If you're improving everything, I can't imagine trying to follow that, when nothing they're saying is in the script. [both laugh] 

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Can you imagine being in a room, though, with Robin Williams and Nathan Lane just improvising a whole movie? 

Jojo  

Oh, my gosh.

Sarah  

I'd be like, "This is the best day of my life," and forget to call "cut." [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah, absolutely. I just could listen to them riff all day.

Sarah  

Oh my God. 

Jojo  

The funny thing, too, is this was kind of Nathan Lane's big break too. 

Sarah  

Really?

Jojo  

So when he came on to this movie, there were a couple of interviews I was reading about-- I got really into the research for this, just about the movie itself, not necessarily even about the costumes. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

But Nathan was like, "I was just so enamored," because you know, he knew he was working with Robin Williams and Mike Nichols. And I was laughing because there were all these quotes about how Robin Williams didn't want to do Nathan Lane's role, because Nathan Lane is again playing the kind of "dressed up as a woman" and very matronly role. Which he was like, "I already did that in 'Mrs. Doubtfire.'" 

Sarah  

Oh, yeah. 

Jojo  

"So I don't really need to do that again." So of course, when he didn't take that role, and Nathan Lane just kind of stepped right into it so naturally, there was a little quote about how the both of them were really insecure about trying to figure out their character and figure out their humor. And I was like, "this is just adorable." I'm just picturing the two of them talking to each other. And then I think there was a quote Nathan Lane said about, like... "we're the most insecure men I've ever met." [both laugh] But yes, it just sounded like a really fun set all around. 

Sarah  

Oh, I'm sure it was.

Jojo  

And then moving on to the costume design. Sorry, that was such a long intro. 

Sarah  

No, you're good.

Jojo  

But this was by Ann Roth, who, of course, anybody in the costume world knows who Ann Roth is. She is...

Sarah  

I don't. [laughs] 

Jojo  

[laughs] Oh, sorry. She one of the oldest costume designers out there. And she's kind of done everything. 

Sarah  

Oh, okay. 

Jojo  

She's the oldest woman to win a competitive Oscar. That was what I wrote recently. 

Sarah  

Cool! 

Jojo  

She actually just won for "Ma Rainey's Black Bottom." 

Sarah  

Oh, damn.

Jojo  

Which I also want to cover at some point. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

She's been working since 1964. So even before Mike Nichols's first movie, which is crazy.

Sarah  

He has passed away, by the way. He passed away in 2014. I looked it up.

Jojo  

Oh, he has? Oh, man. Well, RIP Mike Nichols.

Sarah  

It's amazing that she's still working, though. Wow. 

Jojo  

Yeah, she is still working. It's pretty insane. But she-- one of the things that she is well known for, too, is that she actually was one of the first designers to really pull a lot of vintage stock, like truly vintage stock. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Because I think she has some kind of a quote when she was working back in the day... she was like, "a lot of the West Coast designers at that time were mostly pulling from, you know, from stock--or costume stocks--and things like that. And I had like, authentic vintage pieces that I wanted to put into my clothing." And she says a lot-- and I think a lot of designers nowadays are really sticking to this, as well, of how authentic she wants the character to be. And how informed the character costumes are. She really delves really deep into, where did this costume come from? Is it something that they grabbed from, you know, a high school Goodwill? Where did that... where did that travel from to get to that Goodwill? Like, all the kind of backstory of really creating a character behind a costume was kind of... I wouldn't say she invented it, but she certainly takes a lot of care into thinking about all those details. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So anyways, so she's done "The Girl on the Train" in 2016. I'm kind of moving backwards at this point. She did "Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close" in 2011, "Julie and Julia" in 2009, "Mamma Mia" in 2008...

Sarah  

Wow. 

Jojo  

..."Stepford wives" in 2004. She also won an Academy Award in 1996 for "The English Patient." And then she was also nominated for the Academy Award for "Talented Mr. Ripley," but she's also done a lot of Broadway theater, she won many, many--and was nominated for many, many--Tonys. She did "The Book of Mormon," she did "Shuffle Along." 

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

She did "Carousel," she won for the show "The Nance," which I don't know very well, but that's another one she's done. 

Sarah  

Yeah, I've never heard of that.

Jojo  

So yeah, so she's got a lot of like, really great credits under her belt.

Sarah  

Amazing!

Jojo  

So yeah, that's why a lot of people know her. She's just this tour de force lady.

Sarah  

Now I do, too. Now I can be like, "Yes, I know who Ann Roth is!" 

Jojo  

[laughs] Yeah, she was one of the names that I just constantly heard. She's, like, really scary to work for, is what I've heard. 

Sarah  

Oooh.

Jojo  

But she's pretty phenomenal. It's kind of like Julie Taymor, but of the costume world. [laughs] 

Sarah  

Oh, yeah. I feel like if you've been working long enough, and you had to kind of fight for your place and fight to have a long career, you kind of have a no-nonsense attitude that can seem really abrasive. And sometimes it is actually abusive. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

And I don't want to excuse that, but definitely, I do think that-- especially women of a certain age, who had to claw their way...

Jojo  

Oh, true that.

Sarah  

...into that Hollywood career just have an attitude where they have to keep fighting, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah, it's kind of unfortunate, actually. But you know, it makes a lot more sense why they are the way they are. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

Because they've had to kind of trek through all of that. 

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So anyways, I surprisingly-- and a little sadly, I did not find a lot of interviews with her about the costumes for this. So I will mostly be talking about how just pretty I think everything is.

Sarah  

Great. [both laugh]

Jojo  

But yes... so I'll give you a quick summary of the plot, for those of you who have not watched this movie. I kind of very briefly stole this off of another website because I didn't think I would be able to do this very well. But Armand Goldman, who is Robin Williams, he runs a successful drag club in South Beach, Miami, and he has a life partner Albert, who's played by Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane is also the star of his club, known by the name of Starina. Not very creative there. But so anyways, that's kind of where the start is. Armand's son Val, who's played by Dan Futterman... I don't know how to say that name either. 

Sarah  

I don't either.

Jojo  

...Is engaged, or gets engaged, to a woman named Barbara who's played by Calista Flockhart, who you might know better as Ally McBeal. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And what ends up following is Armand and Albert's attempts at appearing straight laced--or straight--in order to try and meet Barbara's very conservative parents. The father is a senator, Senator Keeley, and he's played by Gene Hackman. And his wife is Louise Keeley, played by Diane Wiest. So really pretty big all star cast. I don't know if this is where they... well, I know at least Nathan Lane kind of got started here, but the rest of this cast is pretty well known. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

And one thing that I did write in an interesting quote by Nichols... or sorry, it was by the Gainesville Sun. Which, I don't know where that is, but it said, "Nichols wanted to shoot the movie as much like a play as possible without much editing." So again, it was just so interesting that not only does he have them improv-ing the whole time, but he wants to try and just shoot a straight shot of this movie. So I was like, "Wow, that's pretty amazing." So... anyway.

Sarah  

That's pretty cool, I like that. I like that idea.

Jojo  

Yeah. Agreed. It was a lot of fun to kind of find out more information about that. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

I had some fun facts, but I'm gonna kind of skip those because I think I want to try to move-- talked so much about this movie already. [both laugh] I wrote a lot of notes because I was just so curious and fascinated about everything behind it.

Sarah  

You have way more research than I have about mine. I watched mine late at night last night, and I was like, "This is good. That's enough info." [both laugh]

Jojo  

So funny. Okay, so I'm gonna start off with-- and I had to filter it out a lot. I was really sad. And I still had more than 10 costumes. So I apologize in advance. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. [laughs]

Jojo  

And I wasn't even able to focus on all of the characters. Because really, even just between Armand and Albert, there's so many costume changes, and they're all so fascinating and fun. So I didn't want to skip on any of them.

Sarah  

Yeah, because we don't have to focus on all of them, you know, but then you go, "Oh, I like this one. I like this one. I like this one, too." And then it becomes very hard to pick.

Jojo  

Pretty much! Okay, so I will start off with the opening scene. And basically we start off right in Armand's... in his club. And they're trying to convince Nathan Lane to get on stage. And he has this whole dramatic breakdown moment where he's like, "I can't go on," and he's sobbing. And he thinks he's ugly, and all of this other stuff. Eventually, they convince him to get on stage. And this is his first Starina costume. So his first performance costume. I just love it. I don't know, there's not much I have to say about it. I'm not even normally a leopard print person, but I just love that he's got this matching leopard print hat plus the muff, which he makes this whole joke about. And then he's got this beautiful kind of glitter, it almost looks like chiffon, just wrapped and draped around him.

Sarah  

I feel like it must be-- it looks like it's a reference to something, but I don't know what it is. You know, with the cowl?

Jojo  

That's kind of how I-- I feel like there were a lot of references in this movie that maybe I'm just too young to, like, get?

Sarah  

Sure. Yeah.

Jojo  

Or I just missed. So I wish that I had caught... I'm sure there are things that I missed, and wish that I had caught more but by itself either way, I just... it's just so fantastic. And I did find... I think this is it. Oh, it's very tiny. I'm really sorry. But this was the full, the whole getup. And there's even a whole joke that he makes about having the tail appear, and he just pulls the tail out of his muff.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So he's like, "Oh, I caught her by the tail." There's this big joke with that. And even like, the matching leopard boots, I don't know.

Sarah  

I love the boots. And I love that it has a tail.

Jojo  

Just... everything about it. Yes, so much.

Sarah  

So funny.

Jojo  

I need to start doing that with all my muffs. Not that I carry muffs around, but you know, if I did. [laughs]

Sarah  

I got my wardrobe of muffs that I just... one in every color.

Jojo  

My fur muffs. [both laugh] Okay, so moving on. The other character that I very briefly wanted to touch on--again, I did not have enough room to do all of these photos--was Agador. 

Sarah  

I love him. 

Jojo  

And I can't remember the name of the actor that plays him. I forgot to write that down.

Sarah  

Hector someone, right? Is that...

Jojo  

Yes. Hector...

Sarah  

Alon... sa ...

Jojo  

Ansari? No, that's not his last name. Ah. Anyways, they will come back to me at some point. 

Sarah  

Hector... 

Jojo  

I'm gonna look-- I'll look it up.

Sarah  

Alonzo. No, that's not Hector Alonzo... shoot.

Jojo  

What's his name?! 

Sarah  

Hank Azaria!

Jojo  

Hank Azaria. Okay, thanks.

Sarah  

He has the same initials as Hector Alonzo.

Jojo  

I was like, "I know there's a Z..." Oh, okay, that's why.

Sarah  

I get those names confused. Yes, I love him. He's great.

Jojo  

[laughs] But I wanted to pull all of... and again, this is only a few of his looks. Not all of them. But I love that Ann kind of gave him sort of like a Dukes of Hazzard look.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

Where he's always got the jean cutoffs, and the little crop tops. [laughs] Just that he's got this giant rip in the side of his jeans.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. Basically underwear. 

Jojo  

Showing off his legs. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

Basically. Yeah, exactly. So I just thought that was kind of funny. It was... you know, it's interesting. There's so many interviews about him and how he felt like he was worried about how he portrayed, you know, the gay Latino population at the time. And I think they were trying to do a sequel, and he refused because he was like, "I just don't think I can represent this culture, or this demographic correctly." 

Sarah  

Wow! 

Jojo  

And this was also-- I think it was this was more recently. 

Sarah  

Right, right, right.

Jojo  

Now that they've had all of these talks about representing the right group.

Sarah  

Well, yeah, because I mean-- this is definitely a conversation we can have about both our movies. It's that like, at the time, being an openly gay person was not really synonymous with being a successful actor. 

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So like, anyone who was gay was usually closeted. So the people who portrayed gay people in media were usually straight, or at least straight-appearing. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And nowadays, people try to cast, you know, queer people to play queer people. And I think that that's generally pretty important, especially since it's hard for gay actors to get jobs. So they should be in those roles.

Jojo  

I think it's very similar to the same conversation we're having about diversity, right? 

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

Like, you know, an Asian person should be playing an Asian, not that we have to stereotype it. But like, I mean, even in these, the straight people are also... these roles are very stereotyped. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

I mean-- and again, I don't necessarily... I mean, I know people that are homosexual, but not necessarily all of them act like this. 

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

So again, there's a lot of misconceptions about this. This is one of the first times they're really putting it out in the open. So, you know, how much of that leeway are they taking? And how much of it is Hollywood trying to create a persona, right? 

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And, you know, it's the same problem that we're having even today with diverse voices and trying to represent equally all of those voices. 

Sarah  

Totally. And I've heard a lot of people be like, "Oh, well, you know, actors can portray... they're actors. They can, you know, they can dive into whatever role." And it's like, sure, but if it's "give this gay actor a job" or "give this straight actor a job," queer actors have a harder time getting cast. So they should be cast in these roles that are basically FOR them. They're made for other queer people to see themselves on screen. So... yeah, that's... that's it. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah. I think that's definitely an age-old argument that I'm sure will continue for a while. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jojo  

All right. Cool.

Sarah  

Anyway! 

Jojo  

Moving on. We went on a very...

Sarah  

It's an important convo! 

Jojo  

...very important tangent, but yes. So this outfit is not necessarily in the movie, but I did want to pull this out because one of the first scenes that Armand is seen in, he's in this Versace, which he wears a lot of. He wears a lot of these kind of Versace shirts, which also is very Miami.

Sarah  

Very Miami, yeah.

Jojo  

So I thought that was really very appropriate. And I think, you know, not necessarily having lived in Miami or having had experienced that, but there is sort of a visual image of that. 

Sarah  

Well, 'cuz... 

Jojo  

...when you think of Miami from this time as well.

Sarah  

Yeah, 'cuz that's where he lived. That's where Versace lived. So...

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

...especially in the 90s, in the 80s and 90s. It was very Versace all the time. 

Jojo  

Yeah. And same with Dolce and Gabbana, I think?

Sarah  

I don't know. 

Jojo  

Is that correct? I'm not sure. But I know Dolce and Gabbana is also very well represented in this movie, so a lot of their clothes were used. 

Sarah  

Nice.

Jojo  

So again, you know, this idea of Ann Roth really taking realistic things that they want to pull from that area, and from the brands that are nearby. I just thought that was really appropriate. So anyways, I just really liked this shirt. And he-- Robin Williams is often portrayed in this kind of a silhouette, where he's always wearing this very loose open shirt over a white A-shirt. Or for many of you, it used to be called the "wife beater." We do not call it that anymore.

Sarah  

We do not!

Jojo  

We call it an A-shirt. [laughs] So that's what he's wearing most of the time underneath, or sometimes a black t-shirt, or a black A-shirt. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And then he's always got these  really wide kind of... they're almost like palazzo pants? But they're very billowy and it's great watching him just like, run around everywhere and kind of inwardly panic. 'Cuz he's sort of the one that needs to be kind of controlled. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

I had this interesting quote from Nichols that said, "what I wanted in our mind was the kind of suppressed hysteria. Someone who could appear perfectly straight and ordinary, but with a little something just under the surface that he can't completely control."

Sarah  

Uh huh. 

Jojo  

"Robin played that brilliantly." So I think that was absolutely accurate. And I just thought that was so funny, that he really is obviously very, very flamboyantly dressed, but he still tries to kind of keep everything under control. Whereas Nathan Lane is kind of overly dramatic, always crying. 

Sarah  

Right. 

Jojo  

Always screaming, you know, so it was just kind of a funny contrast between the two of them. Okay, next one. So I pulled this image, and this is probably the only image I've pulled of the senator-- or sorry, the Keeley family. And the only reason I didn't pull more pictures of them is because most of the movie they are in these pretty conservative, you know, suits. The mom is always in some kind of a conservative suit dress. And then even Calista is-- she's always in these braids, and it's very preppy. There's one scene where she's in, like, a flannel. And I think that's her only time she kind of dresses down. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But the rest of the time, very, very preppy looking until the very end. And so one of the things I wanted to do with this image is just to kind of show the color contrast. Because I think Ann did a really good job of keeping this family--this nuclear family--in a very Earth tone, kind of grays--and some monochrome charcoals and grays--but it was mostly in the gray family. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Or maybe some beige, but that was about it. So like, you don't really see them go anywhere else. And then in contrast, when they arrive in Miami to meet Robin Williams and Nathan Lane, then it's this huge contrast of just colors, patterns, everything.

Sarah  

Yeah, Miami is a very colorful place, just like... on its own.

Jojo  

Yeah. Okay, moving on. So this is all within maybe the first, like, 30 minutes of the movie. [both laugh] So this is why I had such a hard time filtering, but I just love this outfit. Like, again, this is still him kind of not necessarily dressed as Starina, but it's another one of his acts in the performance, and he's supposed to be playing a clown. But I just love that he's got these-- the pink gloves are just like... I just think it's such a great touch. And then the top hat, and he's kind of got this clown... it's almost like a cross between a sailor with the striped vest. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

Versus like, you know, the traditional clown with the oversized flower and the patches on his jacket. And I also have a full body shot of this.

Sarah  

[laughs] Look at those shoes. 

Jojo  

I just thought it was-- I mean, you never seen his shoes in this movie.

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

But I just thought it was so funny that, you know, they have the full look. 

Sarah  

Wow. 

Jojo  

But yes, what a character. I mean, Nathan Lane must have had so much fun with all of these costume changes. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So... not too much to add to that. Yet another Nathan Lane. And this is when they find out Val is is home with them. 

Sarah  

Uh huh.

Jojo  

So he goes out and basically is shopping in the... it's basically this really quick shot of him just walking through the marketplace in Miami. And I just-- I don't know, I just love this whole outfit. Again, there's not much notes that I have for any of these costumes really, except that they're just... they're just so great.

Sarah  

I love how his vibe is kind of... Golden Girls-y? 

Jojo  

Yes, very much so. 

Sarah  

He has a glasses chain and like, a little collared shirt. [both laugh]

Jojo  

It's so cute. Yeah. And then the little bag. And I think these are... I think they're pink, or like a peach color, kind of pant. And in the-- again, I don't know if this is Versace, but it looks very Versace pattern?

Sarah  

The chain. Yeah. 

Jojo  

In terms of-- yeah, the chain, and then the vest. It's kind of a vest. I don't know.

Sarah  

I mean the chain print, the chain print is very Versace.

Jojo  

Yeah, yes. 

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Jojo  

So I just-- I just love it. And then this is when he arrives home, and again Agador is just in his little Dukes of Hazzard jean shorts. [laughs] And again, this contrast of the two of them, obviously Robin Williams is still very flamboyant. But he's kind of-- he's got like, it's almost like a... it's not a smoking jacket. I know it's a robe. But it is sort of one of those things where I feel like he feels like the more austere of the two of them.

Sarah  

Sure. 

Jojo  

And Nathan Lane is just kind of like the flighty, always waving his hands everywhere and always saying something in high pitched voices.

Sarah  

But that creates a balance the relationship. Right? You can't both be like that. You need one... 

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

...you need to balance each other out. [laughs]

Jojo  

Absolutely, absolutely. Even just  the little glasses, I think it's just such a great touch, all the little details that she includes on there. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

One of the other things that I wrote down, too, is that he's-- Robin Williams is always wearing these three gold chains. And both of them are always wearing a ton of gold rings. So I don't know if-- and again, this is kind of where I feel like I'm not the expert in terms of like, what is culturally appropriate for this group, or this community. But like, all the gold rings that they're wearing, it just felt like a very... I don't know if it was just something associated with their specific club, or just the two of them, or if it was something that is common in Miami in the homosexual community. I don't know. So that was kind of a question, I guess, that I had. 

Sarah  

Yeah, I don't have an answer. I don't know a lot about Miami or gay culture in Miami in the 90s. But if anybody does, feel free to tell us! 

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely. It was just-- it was an interesting choice. I mean, because it definitely worked with their character, but I wasn't sure if that was just a character thing.

Sarah  

I've definitely watched the "American Crime Story" on Gianni Versace. And I feel like he was constantly covered in rings. So maybe it's just like a style thing. A late 80s/early 90s Miami thing of lots of gold jewelry. 

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely, because Nathan also makes a comment about how he takes off all of his rings in order to become the straightlaced, conservative man. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

So I just, you know, I thought it was it was an interesting question that I had about, you know, the character. But back to the necklaces that-- or the chains that Robin Williams is wearing. It's interesting, because I couldn't figure out what two of them were, but there is one that's clearly a Jewish Star of David, which you don't really... I mean, they don't make any comment on the fact that they're Jewish until, like, the last maybe 10 minutes of movie. 

Sarah  

Interesting. 

Jojo  

But it's, you know... again, it's such a tiny detail. But like, clearly Ann Roth has thought about like, okay, even though he... you know, he doesn't necessarily exude like, "I'm this Jewish," whatever. It's like a little kind of commentary on what's important to him, and that he still wears that as a symbol. 

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

So yes, anyways, that I just thought that was interesting. Moving on. Okay, another great Nathan Lane look. [laughs] Again, just prepping for performance. But I also just wanted to pull in, even though this movie was made in in the late 90s, there's definitely a lot of late 80s references and the kind of-- you know, the leotards and the workout gear from the 80s. All of that kind of gets carried over. And again, you know, these are... they're clearly very flamboyant. And they're clearly very comfortable in who they are. But I just thought that it was so interesting that she had set a lot of their costumes in... back in the late 80s. And setting isn't really ever established in this movie. 

Sarah  

Right. 

Jojo  

But I think there's so much more fun prints, and things like that, that are happening in the 80s. So part of me wonders if they were setting it in that time, or if she was just trying to bring back those things, because it was so fashionable and trendy,

Sarah  

I think it's probably carryover. I think that we forget, kind of, because we look at the... we look at the decade as a whole and we say, "Oh, well, these are the hallmarks of this decade." But we kind of forget that a lot of things carry through, you know. It doesn't end at '89 and go into '90 and everybody's like, "we're gonna dress completely differently now." You know, things kind of bleed into each other. So I definitely think that aerobics gear was still happening in the 90s. It was probably just like, different colors, different cuts, kind of thing.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely. So yes, I just-- again, I just love this look. Not too many notes, like I said, just really fun outfits for Nathan Lane. And just interesting seeing him in this kind of a role, too. I mean, I think he does play a lot of these kinds of roles. But I think it's just fun to see him, you know, really own this character. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

So there's another-- I think this is the Dolce and Gabbana shirt...

Sarah  

Mmkay. 

Jojo  

...that he's wearing, because I think there's actually... there was some kind of an auction that I found the same image on. And they were like, "there's a label that says 'D&G' on the inside." 

Sarah  

Hmm!

Jojo  

But he's also got these... you can't see it in the picture. But supposedly, they're actually silk yellow-and-green striped pants. 

Sarah  

Ooh.

Jojo  

So like, even though the color doesn't read as bright here, it's just... you know, again, this idea of really bringing in color. And the mix of patterns, I think, is so fun too. And again, still holding to that same silhouette. I think it tells us a lot about Robin Williams's character. And again, it gives us so much about who he is. And yet when he plays the character, because again, there's so many stereotypes about what a homosexual character acts like, and looks like, and all of these things. And I think Robin Williams really made a very balanced acting choice of kind of carrying him a little more subtle.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

As opposed to like, the traditional and stereotypical homosexual man. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So I pulled this image because this is one of the ones that I think was probably my least favorite. And not because I think it didn't add to the comedic factor. Like, I think that part of it was very successful. But this is when they're out on the beach. And it's this picture and, I think, this one.

Sarah  

Hmm. 

Jojo  

This is kind of a better idea of what they're wearing. 

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But I think I was just a little confused about this. Like, it almost looks like pajamas.

Sarah  

Pajamas, yeah. [laughs] 

Jojo  

And I know, obviously, that is my contemporary look at this matching set. 

Sarah  

I don't know...

Jojo  

But I was also trying to find images of this in the 80s. And I was like, "everyone around them is wearing these..." you know, there's a whole scene at the end where senator Keeley is driving into Miami, and there's all these people rollerblading in little thong bikinis and stuff. 

Sarah  

Yeah. [laughs] 

Jojo  

And I'm like, "who is wearing this to the beach?!" Like...

Sarah  

Just, like, full long sleeved pajamas.

Jojo  

Yeah. And like, even Nathan Lane, I think when I first looked at him, it almost didn't register that the bottoms were white. It almost looked like he was wearing also a matching set of pink gingham and pink on the bottom. 

Sarah  

Huh.

Jojo  

So yeah, I think-- I mean, at least for him, when I see the full suit, it looks a little less weird. Like, he just kind of looks like he's trying to cover himself up at the beach. And maybe this looks a little more like "Miami Vice" or something? Like, he kind of was sort of wearing a suit? 

Sarah  

Yeah, it looks like maybe it's linen, you know, summer weight. But still, on the beach, you would think that they would look like they're on the beach. [laughs]

Jojo  

Right. And like, he's only in this outfit when he's under the umbrella. The rest of the scene, he's just in this. And I'm like... I'm very confused. [laughs]

Sarah  

It just seems like a lot of clothes.

Jojo  

With everything else they're wearing.... Yeah, with everything else they're wearing in the rest of the movie, I think this look for both of them... I was very just kind of thrown off. I was like, "this seems very 'not them.'" 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

So yes. I'd be curious to hear what Roth's thoughts were on this choice. 

Sarah  

Yeah. Me too.

Jojo  

Or like, where these outfits came from. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

Okay, moving on. So... another great look for the two of them. So halfway through when they basically are trying to meet Senator Keeley and his wife.... So the son Val basically doesn't believe that Nathan can play a straight man, because at first their idea is to have him play the uncle who's just kind of, you know, close...

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

...close to the family. And then they just-- they don't think that's gonna work. So Robin Williams--or Armand--ends up deciding to come up with this idea to contact Val's true mother, who was how Val was conceived. 

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

And so they try to get her to come for the dinner. There's all kinds of mishaps that happen with that as well, so Nathan Lane ends up dressing up as a woman to play the wife. However, when they go to visit the mother, this is the outfit that they show up in. And I just love that, you know, Nathan Lane's just-- I love the yellow, first of all. I think that that was a really nice touch of tying them together. And I think, again, Ann Roth does this really great thing about being able to tie groups together so you can really associate them together by color. So the fact that, you know, he's got this kind of matching yellow patterned shirt, and then he's got a little tie there. What did I write on my notes? Let's see. I put, "Albert's personality sort of reminds me of a little bit of a 50s/60s housewife." Still very "Golden Girls," I think, with the neckerchief. And even the little hat, and again, the rose-colored glasses. Or... I guess they're not really rose, they're kind of more yellow in this case. 

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And then kind of comparing that to Armand's very masculine suits, which remind me a lot more of the very quintessential 80s. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So I just think it's so funny that he really does play the part of kind of the traditional housewife to a certain extent, and even when he dresses up as the woman, too. Obviously very opinionated about certain things, but I think he definitely plays the part very well. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So I think this is just another picture. Yeah. So just to show the bottom pants that he wears with this beautiful yellow outfit on top.

Sarah  

I love the yellow.

Jojo  

I do, too. I was like, "I'm not normally a yellow person." But this yellow just looks so great. And I love his little hat too, the little short brimmed hat.

Sarah  

You always say you're not into yellow, and then you always are excited about the yellow looks. [laughs]

Jojo  

I think it's really just-- it's like, there's specific colors of yellow that I really like. Like, I'm really into ochre. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

And I really like that kind of... it's almost like a buttercup yellow. 

Sarah  

Uh huh. 

Jojo  

Like, those two yellows, I think I'm more okay with. It's like, when you go into neon, that's usually when I'm like, "No thank you." [laughs]

Sarah  

Ooh, I love a neon yellow. I love neon anything. 

Jojo  

[laughs] Yes. Okay. So in contrast, I wanted to show a quick shot of Val. And then Armand when-- you know, when he finally dresses up to look like the straightlaced man. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

The sad thing is, they end up taking down all the decorations in their house. They basically take out all the inappropriate statues and artwork and all these things to basically try and make the house look a little more conservative, to try and trick the girl's parents. And this is Nathan Lane, when he's in his suit. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

So this is when he makes the whole joke about removing all the rings. And then, you know, it's so funny because he spent like five minutes trying to figure out how to sit down, because he doesn't know where to put his hands. [laughs] Without looking super femme. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

And then, of course, Robin Williams asked him about his pink socks. And he was like, "well, I just thought a pop of color would be helpful." [both laugh]

Sarah  

Aww. 

Jojo  

So yes, again, this was obviously-- he did not end up going and showing up like this. But it was just funny that he made this attempt to try and look like a straight man. And then of course, this is his female version, when he finally shows up as... you know, the missus. They pretend their name is Coleman instead of Goldman. 

Sarah  

Uh huh.

Jojo  

So then he comes in as Mrs. Coleman. And it's interesting, because I think when they interview Nathan, he mentioned something about being inspired by Mrs. Bush.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah! 

Jojo  

I just thought that was so funny. It was like, "Yeah, I can see that." 

Sarah  

Yep.

Jojo  

So like, you know, just the way that she's dressed, the pearls. But just the tie--the bow--around the neck. And yet, still a ton of pattern. So... So yes, I just thought this was hilarious, and I think this was just such a great moment, because he kind of just shows up out of nowhere and gives them no warning. Like, they are not expecting him to dress up like this.

Sarah  

Amazing. 

Jojo  

And then Senator Keeley and his whole family is like, totally just... they have no idea. They just totally think he's the wife and don't even bat an eye at the fact that he's dressed up as a woman. Like, they just think he's a woman. [laughs]

Sarah  

Love it!

Jojo  

It's great. Okay. And then the final scenes, there's a couple I just wanted to-- I wanted to show more of the performers in drag in the club, because there is a scene at the beginning where they enter as well. But this last scene I just thought was just so funny. Because this is also how they get the Senator Keeley family to escape. Because right when they're about to say like, "okay, no, we're not going to have you guys get married"... When they find out the ruse is all up, they find out Nathan Lane is actually a man. Val finally--the son--finally stands up and says "this is my mother." Whereas he's kind of a jerk throughout the movie. Because he's constantly like, "you have to change this. You have to be this other person. You have to... you know, you have to get rid of these, you can't do this." And then it's finally at the very end when he takes the wig off and basically says "this is actually my mother." And then Senator Keeley basically is like, "you can't marry my daughter." But then he gets stopped by the paparazzi outside and so, of course, to avoid even more scandal their idea is to dress up the Keeley family as drag queens and basically waltz them out the front door. 

Sarah  

[laughs]

Jojo  

So this is the final performance. I just wanted to show some fun photos for our audience and listeners. They decided to do a black and white theme, but it's also very like "Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend" kind of incorporated in there as well. There's a lot of glitz. And this-- I just wanted... I don't even know who this is. This is not anybody that shows up anywhere else in the movie. [both laugh] But he just somehow shows up at the very beginning...

Sarah  

That is quite a jacket. 

Jojo  

Sorry, at the.... Yes, I just really like his jacket. And also, I don't know what's going on with these pants. 

Sarah  

I don't either.

Jojo  

He's got like, I can't tell if it's on a side pocket or if that's actually how it closes? Or if this is just giant safety pins, or if he's just got rhinestone right at his crotch? 

Sarah  

Ooh!

Jojo  

Like, I don't know what's going on. But it's a lot. And then of course, all the ladies that you can see, varying levels of very 80s prom dresses, almost. 

Sarah  

Stunning.

Jojo  

With all the glitz and glam. And then the last three shots are just-- this is our Gene Hackman and his drag. [both laugh] He's clearly the most uncomfortable. But it's funny because actually, when they pulled him out in this first shot, I was almost like-- I almost didn't recognize him. I was like, "who... which... who is who is that? Which character is that?" But yeah, so I just thought that was really funny. And then the mom, Dianne Wiest, and each of-- it's funny because then Robin Williams, Nathan Lane, and Val all end up dressing up very gentlemanly. So Nathan Lane is in one of his more masculine looks for the very end, which I find ironic. 

Sarah  

[laughs]

Jojo  

So that they can pair with their drag queen to lead them out. 

Sarah  

Uh huh. 

Jojo  

So he ushers Dianne Wiest out. And then of course Val, at the very end, leads Ally McBeal. I'm gonna keep calling her Ally McBeal. [both laugh] He leads Barbara out in her outfit. And I think she's one of the ones that I was a little bit like, "I'm not..." I feel like they overpowdered her a little bit. Just a little more vampy, scary.

Sarah  

Something looks very severe about it. Yeah.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely a little more powder and white makeup than I think was necessary, especially since the other two still look very... I don't want to say "normal," but they look a little bit more natural. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

So it's like, what's going on with this look? Was this an actor choice? 

Sarah  

Huh.

Jojo  

But I do love her dress. I love all the sequins and... 

Sarah  

It's cute. 

Jojo  

And just everything over the top. 

Sarah  

We love a sparkle. 

Jojo  

So yeah, that is my coverage of all the things "Birdcage."

Sarah  

Great job! Yay!

Jojo  

Thank you! Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Like I said, I think the biggest thing that was successful was... Ann Roth really did a good job about separating with color. The different families, and even  the two groups. 

Sarah  

Totally.

Jojo  

Minus Val. I think Val was probably the most normal looking. 

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I spent a lot of this movie just being angry at Val. 'Cuz he's kind of a jerk. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Well, yeah, it's... yeah, I mean, it's tough because at the time, I guess, it was normal to be ashamed if you came from a family like that. But like, nowadays, we're like, "come on, man." Like, it's your parents. Have some respect. 

Jojo  

So funny. But yes. So... I'm glad they redeemed him at the end. 

Sarah  

Me too. Me too. Okay, let's do it. So I'm very excited to talk about this movie. Oh... come on computer, you can do it. 

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

Because I had never seen it before. And when I said that at work, there were a lot of gasps in the room. Because it's both an iconic gay movie and an iconic costume movie.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So this is "The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" from 1994.

Jojo  

I also have not seen this movie. So I'm excited.

Sarah  

It's... I went in not knowing what the plot was at all. And it wasn't about what I expected it to be about. 

Jojo  

Ahh, interesting.

Sarah  

'Cuz I saw the costumes and I expected it to be this fantasy thing. And it's not, it's about three drag queens--well, two drag queens and a trans woman--who are on a road trip, basically. 

Jojo  

Ooh, okay.

Sarah  

Like, that's kind of all it's about? The plot is not... like, not a lot happens. They're just on a road trip. That's the whole story. So it's from 1994. Directed by... I don't know if it's "Stephan" or "Stephen" Elliott. Sorry to Mr. Elliott. I don't know which one it is. 

Jojo  

[laughs] That's okay. 

Sarah  

So this is an Australian movie... so I pulled it up, because I have forgotten. Okay. I don't recognize any of his other titles. He did a movie called "Swinging Safari," "A Few Best Men," "Easy Virtue." These sound a little bit like they could be porns, not gonna lie. [both laugh] 

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

I don't think they are. I don't think they are. [laughs] Okay.

Jojo  

Yes, I definitely don't recognize any of them either. So...

Sarah  

Yeah, and I think that Australian... you know, some movies don't make it across to us from Australia or the UK or any other country. 

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Some of them do, but not all of them. So the costumes were by Tim Chappel and Lizzy Gardner, they're a little team. Tim Chappel has done some "Masked Singer," a 2006 "Red Riding Hood," and he also just has a lot of credits as not the designer, but just in the costuming department. Or as the assistant, on things like "Miss Congeniality." 

Jojo  

Ooh!

Sarah  

And he is the associate designer on "The Dressmaker," which is a movie I've heard a lot about, it's a Kate Winslet movie. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

And I have not seen it, but it's on my list. 

Jojo  

I haven't seen that one either. 

Sarah  

And then Lizzy Gardner did "Mission: Impossible 2," "Peter Rabbit," "Hacksaw Ridge"... so she works a lot. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

And my first picture, actually... depending on how I can squeeze my images, this might not be on the Instagram slideshow. 

Jojo  

Okay. 

Sarah  

But this is Lizzy Gardner at the Oscars when they won. 

Jojo  

Whooooa!

Sarah  

So this movie won Best Costume Design at the Oscars. It is the last contemporary movie to win for the costuming Oscar. And we've talked about this a little bit, I talked about it in my "Roman Holiday" coverage, which is that there used to be a black and white costume design Oscar and a color film one. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And it used to be that the black and white movies were often contemporary. And then the color ones were the big spectacles, the fantasies, the musicals. So when they combined the two in '67, I think, contemporary movies basically stopped winning the Oscar because it's hard for them to compete against big spectacle movies. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm. 

Sarah  

Yeah. So, you know, this was in the 90s. So it's kind of wild to me that no contemporary movie has won since then. 

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

So... anyway, back to this dress she's wearing. 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

This is... where's my note? Here we go. She gained worldwide attention when she picked up her award wearing an unusual dress consisting of 254 expired American Express gold cards. [laughs] So let's zoom in. 

Jojo  

Oh my god!

Sarah  

Look at that. 

Jojo  

Whaaaat! 

Sarah  

And they originally made this dress for the movie. And then they cut it because American Express was like, "You can't do that," basically.

Jojo  

[laughs] So she wore it to the red carpet instead.

Sarah  

Yes! And after the dress was worn by her, the company saw its marketing potential. And they were keen to showcase the dress throughout its travel offices in the United States. And then it was-- the dress was auctioned off for charity. And the proceeds went to AIDS research. And it has been cited as amongst the worst Oscar gowns of all time, which I think is a load of baloney, because it's great! [both laugh]

Jojo  

That is hilarious. 

Sarah  

Isn't it? 

Jojo  

I mean, it fits her super well. Like, maybe it was if it was on a different body and it didn't look right then it would be a different story. But I feel like...

Sarah  

It looks like a 20s sort of fantasy, just made out of gold cards. I could see maybe shortening it?

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah  

To make it just...

Jojo  

I was thinking that too. Like a little sheath or something. 

Sarah  

Yeah, to make it just sort of less of a column. But I think it's iconic.

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

And does not deserve to be on any worst dressed lists. Okay...

Jojo  

So funny. So funny. 

Sarah  

So another tidbit is that there's an iconic scene where they are basically... there's like a scene where he's like, "I've always wanted to climb this one rock in full drag." In a showgirl costume, basically. Climb in the Australian outback in drag. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And initially, they tried to get permission to film on Ayres Rock, which has now been renamed to the indigenous name Uluru. But it was rejected by the organizations responsible for the monument, as it would have been in violation of Indigenous Australian religious beliefs. So basically, since it was a queer movie, they were like, "No, no, you can't film on our rock." 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So I thought-- I just thought that was kind of interesting. So they had to-- like, in the script, it said... I think it probably said Ayers Rock. And they had to rewrite it to be a different... they filmed... I didn't write down where they filmed instead. But they filmed somewhere else.

Jojo  

Okay. 

Sarah  

So yeah. Okay. 

Jojo  

Interesting. 

Sarah  

Yeah. And it's like, nowadays, if someone did something like that they would get so much heat and flack for rejecting a movie just because it had gay people in it. 

Jojo  

Right, right. 

Sarah  

The budget for the costumes on this movie was $20,000. 

Jojo  

....WHAT?!

Sarah  

Which is... hardly anything. [laughs]

Jojo  

That's nothing! Oh my gosh. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

That's crazy.

Sarah  

This is a low budget movie. I don't have the numbers for how much the movie itself cost. But it was basically like an Australian indie flick that they didn't expect to blow up as much as it did. 

Jojo  

Right. Right.

Sarah  

So yeah, these costume designers were working with a budget. They were doing basically like dollar store couture. You know, thrifted sort of stuff. 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Lots of DIY. 

Jojo  

Well, if they took American Express cards that were expired, I get it.

Sarah  

I know. It's like, okay, so where'd you get all those expired gold cards then? Where do you get those? [both laugh]

Jojo  

Sourcing everyone she knows! [laughs]

Sarah  

Okay. Oh, they later went on to design the stage show. So there is a stage musical of this story. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And they designed the costumes for it, which I think is wonderful. And their costume budget for the stage show was $1 million. [laughs]

Jojo  

That's crazy. I mean, that sounds a lot more closer to normal. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah, could not be more different. And then, I actually watched some clips from the stage show. And I was like, "Oh, yeah, this is way more expensive." Like, so many more people are in drag and in huge looks in the stage show. 

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

Okay, what else do I have here before...? Oh, right. Just... I watch a lot of Drag Race. I'm a Drag Race fan. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So I know a bit about drag just from that. And I have seen this movie referenced more times than I can count, and so I knew some of the visual references to it. And I especially was struck by how similar it looks to the HBO show "We're Here," which is like a reality series with three "RuPaul's Drag Race" drag queens, who basically go into small towns, and they sort of do a "Queer Eye" makeover, except they do a drag makeover. And it's sort of like a little docu series. And so a lot of the shots of them basically walking through these small towns-- they literally get off a bus and they walk through small towns in full drag. I did not realize that that is a direct reference to this movie. So I just got really excited. 

Jojo  

Ahhh.

Sarah  

Because I was like, "dang, everyone references this movie!" 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

So yeah, that's my... 

Jojo  

Now it makes sense. 

Sarah  

Yeah, it totally does. Okay, so basically, your basic plot. It's not that complicated. There are three people--two drag queens and a trans woman--who are on a road trip because one of them... whose boy name... his nickname is Tick, but his drag name is Mitzi. He books a show. But what he doesn't tell the other two is that he has a wife, he's technically still married, and he has a son. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So they're basically going to... I did not quite catch some... okay. I don't know if I'm just, like, stupid. But some of the plot details completely went over my head. So I don't know if the wife runs the place that they go to. It's like a club, or like a hotel. 

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

She works there. I know that for sure. Also... the accents. A little bit, sometimes, hard to understand. [both laugh] 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I'm very sorry if I get these details wrong. So basically, he tells them sort of after they're already on the road, like, "oh, also, we're going to see my wife and kid" and they're like, "wife and who what now?" So... yeah. And so then along the way, they kind of-- they break down and they meet people in these tiny little Outback towns. They have some incidents with homophobia, a lot of homophobia. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And basically, yeah, it's kind of just like a slice of life, almost, because nothing huge happens. It's just a roadtrip movie. Kind of like "To Wong Foo," which is also about three drag queens on a road trip, but that's an American movie. So... parallels.

Jojo  

Oh, okay.

Sarah  

It came out after this movie.

Jojo  

Interesting. 

Sarah  

Okay, costumes. Let's do it. This is Tick, a.k.a. Mitzi. 

Jojo  

Oh!

Sarah  

Yeah. And this is the quickest shot, which I was like... they made this costume for the smallest little scene. But I had to grab it because I'm obsessed with it. It's a chandelier.

Jojo  

Yeah! Oh, my goodness. 

Sarah  

And this is basically the scene it flashes back to when he finds out that his son is being born. So he's in the hospital. And he's clearly like, come from performing in this costume to go see his son be born. So he's standing in the hospital dressed as a chandelier, which I think is wonderful.

Jojo  

Is that an octopus on his head? 

Sarah  

It looks like... yeah, looks like a face. A face of some kind. And then it goes. 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then I was like, is it touching an actual chandelier on the ceiling? I don't know.

Jojo  

It's so hard to tell! It's pretty amazing.

Sarah  

I LOVE this. Ugh! 

Jojo  

That is insane. 

Sarah  

And it lights up! How did they... how did they make this movie for $20,000, costumes? I don't understand.

Jojo  

Yeah. Seriously.

Sarah  

Did they borrow this from someone? 

Jojo  

I feel like this one alone, cost... that's crazy.

Sarah  

I know. I think a lot of people involved in the movie didn't get very big paychecks either, you know.

Jojo  

Probably.

Sarah  

So like, maybe the cost was a lot of sort of unpaid people who were just working on it because they knew the people and were like, "sure, we'll work on a movie." 

Jojo  

Yeah, or volunteers or something. 

Sarah  

Yeah. Okay. So this is them. I kind of skipped over everything before the road trip, because it's not really all that interesting costume wise.

Jojo  

No worries.

Sarah  

These are the looks that I immediately recognized. I was like, "Yes, I have seen these before." So on the left, we have Mitzi. In the middle is Bernadette, who is the trans woman. On the right is Felicia, I can't remember his boy name because they, like, never say it, but played by Guy Pierce. And then this one in the middle, oh, I forgot...

Jojo  

That's Guy Pierce?!

Sarah  

Yes!

Jojo  

I do not recognize him at all. That's insane.

Sarah  

Here, I have this. That's him. That's Guy Pierce. Isn't that wild?

Jojo  

Whaaat! That-- yeah, I totally did not... did not expect that

Sarah  

Yeah, my sister was like, "I don't know what I know him from," and I was like, "'Mare of Easttown,' the HBO show we JUST watched." [laughs] 

Jojo  

That's awesome.

Sarah  

I can't remember the actor who plays Bernadette's name, but he's a very well known British actor. Apologies to him. 

Jojo  

Okay. 

Sarah  

I don't want to look it up. And then this is Hugo Weaving of "Lord of the Rings."

Jojo  

Oh! Oh my gosh.

Sarah  

...And "V for Vendetta" fame.

Jojo  

I can definitely see that. I can see, it's his cheekbones.

Sarah  

And the brows, he has very angular brows. Yeah.

Jojo  

[laughs] Yeah, yeah yeah. 

Sarah  

So this is them basically in their first sort of like... small town stop. They're going to stay in a hotel. And I think they just decided to dress up just because this is how they live their lives. And they're like...

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

 ..."we won't be stopped from being fabulous." I like that Bernadette is clearly sort of... she dresses very purposefully and is always really made up. And I think she is sort of like old Hollywood glam inspiration. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And yeah, I think if this movie were made today, she would not be played by a cisgender man, I think she would be played by a trans woman. But this is from 1994. So. And then I love this flip flop dress. 

Jojo  

I do, too. I was just looking at that.

Sarah  

They said they made it for $17. [laughs]

Jojo  

I mean, they probably just took old flip flops... 

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah. I have a feeling that they were really scrounging, you know, whatever they could do.

Jojo  

This must have been a fun craft movie, almost.

Sarah  

Yes! 

Jojo  

Because you're essentially stringing together things-- like, found objects almost. 

Sarah  

Right. It looks like they're held together with maybe like a zip tie or something. 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

This flip flop dress is what you will see recreated a lot. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Like, I just watched Australian Drag Race, "Drag Race Down Under."

Jojo  

Ohhh. 

Sarah  

And there were "Priscilla" references, including one of the queens... they always do a makeover challenge, where they make over-- usually it's a straight man. I can't remember who they made over, honestly, I have the worst memory. But she basically had the flip flop dress and this blue dress, little sort of like... homages to them. And they were very cute.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Sarah  

And then this wig. I love it. What is it made of? 

Jojo  

Straws? 

Sarah  

Straws? It looks like phone cord or electrical wire?

Jojo  

Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh, I can't. 

Sarah  

I love it.

Jojo  

That looks so crazy. 

Sarah  

I love. Love, love, love. Okay, and then there are several scenes where the bus-- the bus is Priscilla, by the way. I had no idea. [laughs]

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

I just assumed one of them was Priscilla. 

Jojo  

Yeah, I definitely would not have known that.

Sarah  

But Priscilla is the bus. [laughs]

Jojo  

Got it. Got it.

Sarah  

She's a character. 

Jojo  

Thank you for explaining that. [both laugh]

Sarah  

You're welcome. They said that, and I literally was like, "Ohhhh..." I felt kinda dumb. 

Jojo  

Like, all this time I'm expecting a person. 

Sarah  

"Where's Priscilla? Oh, she's the bus." Okay. So basically there's two scenes where Felicia, Guy Pierce's character, is sitting on top of the bus in full drag while the bus is in motion. In these amazing-- so I'm gonna start with sort of the faraway shot. Look at that. 

Jojo  

Whaaat!

Sarah  

Yeah, and then this is sort of like the profile of it. I love it.

Jojo  

Oh my goodness.

Sarah  

I know. Oh, I should-- I'm gonna have to censor that when I put it on the Instagram. It has the F word on it. 

Jojo  

Oh, got it. 

Sarah  

As you can see, the bus gets vandalized by some homophobes. Oops, what did I just click on? Sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, there we go. [both laugh] Ohh, technology. Okay, so then this is what he's wearing as he's...

Jojo  

Oh my goodness.

Sarah  

It's just like a head to toe silver sequin.

Jojo  

Every time I see a new costume, I'm just like, "I can't believe they did this for $20,000!" 

Sarah  

It gets crazier as you go! I even-- I had screencaps of the second, because he does this two times. He does it in a pink look too. Oh, and he's sitting in a giant silver high heel. I don't think I have a picture of that. Oh, there it is. You can see, yeah.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sarah  

Giant silver high heel. 

Jojo  

I was trying to figure out what that was around him. That's insane.

Sarah  

Yeah, so he does it in a pink outfit too. I cut it because I had too many pictures. But... I just love. And the scene is like... for no reason, either. It's just for fun.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

He's lip synching to a song. He's just living his best life. 

Jojo  

Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Sarah  

I also really like... so I didn't really pull any of their boy looks, except for him, because I loved his boy wardrobe. This is one of this outfits.

Jojo  

Ooh! Yeah.

Sarah  

This is when he's painting the bus pink. It's like, overalls, but then he rolls it down and... Guy PIerce is extremely hot, like... that really helps. [laughs]

Jojo  

He's got a good body.

Sarah  

Yeah. I just love-- I love the boots and these yellow glasses/goggles. And then the green plaid, I just thought was really fun. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

It's almost like he's like, "this is my work outfit," you know? 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

So then they do-- this happens, this is Hugo Weaving's character. [laughs]

Jojo  

Oh my goodness.��

Sarah  

This is them performing. They basically happen upon a bunch of people in the desert who are sort of like camping out, and they perform for them. And then they perform with them. And I think they're Aboriginal people [correction: Sarah should have said "Indigenous". Apologies!] because it kind of... they sing "I Will Survive." And then it sort of mashes that up with sort of a tribal sort of song. 

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

So they're performing together. And this is a wig made out of fake flowers, I think. And it's fantastic. I love it. And then they're wearing these, which are sort of like the other one where I was like, "I recognize this," you know. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

They're basically jumpsuits and they're bell bottoms, except they're-- the fabric of it is like... at the bottom of the bell bottom, it's stretched around something. And I have a picture of them walking. So you can see.

Jojo  

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. 

Sarah  

I've def-

Jojo  

It's almost like mini hula hoops or something. 

Sarah  

Yes! Yes, yes, it looks... 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And it sort of-- it shows the sole of it. And I had a picture of it, but once again, I cut it because I was like, "too many pictures." It's like, flat and sort of like a half circle. So it's like, when they stand together, it makes almost like a circle shape. Their two feet. 

Jojo  

Okay. 

Sarah  

And I really want to know what it looks like on the inside. Like... 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

...I want to know what sort of situation you have to do on the inside of this to...

Jojo  

To make it sit out like that.

Sarah  

Yeah! 

Jojo  

So crazy. 

Sarah  

It's so cool looking, and when-- you know, when they're dancing, it's super effective. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

In the stage show...

Jojo  

I'm laughing because the flower wig makes me think of the "Midsommar"...

Sarah  

Yeeeeeaaah!

Jojo  

...flower dress that you did-- or, that you were talking about. I was like, "Whoa, it's so weird." [laughs]

Sarah  

That's true. Oh, my gosh, callback. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

Callback to a previous episode. 

Jojo  

Not quite so scary on this one. 

Sarah  

Right. Right. And then in the stage show, the whole ensemble comes out in these jumpsuits. 

Jojo  

Whoa. 

Sarah  

Yeah. So it's quite a sight, to see a whole ensemble where the people are walking around in these crazy, crazy outfits. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Okay. So this is Cynthia. And I think that we need to have a discussion about her. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Okay. 

Sarah  

Because I learned... I was reading the Wikipedia, and the movie has gotten some heat and some controversy because of this character. She's basically the only character of color. Besides the Aboriginal [Indigenous] people that they talk to. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

And she is Filipina, I believe. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And she's... I thought at first that she was like a mail-order bride or something. 

Jojo  

Uh huh.

Sarah  

But I think that they-- he meets her somewhere, and they're partying and drunk and then they drunkenly get married. This guy, he's sort of like a... oh, he's a mechanic, I think he works on the bus for them. So that's how they meet him. 

Jojo  

Okay. 

Sarah  

And she's basically portrayed as extremely erratic. She's like, very high and low. Like, she'll be really manic, and then be crying the next second. And she's kind of portrayed as just like a party girl and very weird. And so a lot of people have said that this is a really problematic representation of Filipina women. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And I think that that's probably a very fair criticism. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

And I read-- on the Wikipedia, it said that the filmmakers were like, "Well, you know, everybody in the movie is a misfit. And we just saw her as another misfit." And it's like, okay, well, if you can't see it, then that's a bit of a problem too. Like, you need to at least be like, "okay, you might be right."

Jojo  

Or at least bring in consultation. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

I think that's something I've been... you know, I mean, I'm glad we're having this discussion, because that was something that... what was that new reality TV show? It's the one with all the Asian people in it, and I can't remember what it's called.

Sarah  

Oh! Is it the rich one... where they're really really rich? 

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah  

Oh shoot, what's that one called? I didn't watch it. Let me try to Google. 

Jojo  

But again, it's like all these Asian characters are portrayed as these kind of very vapid and sort of... you know, party people that do that do kind of go through all the different emotions. And there was a lot of conversation about, you know, "are we excited that this is how we are being represented as Asians? Or were we excited that we're even getting represented at all? And that we're showing that Asians can play any role, including maybe the not-so-likeable"... Or maybe the more vapid, you know, or stuck up or whatever.

Sarah  

Yeah. So the Netflix show is "Bling Empire."

Jojo  

Yes, thank you.

Sarah  

Yeah, I've seen clips from it. 

Jojo  

I was like, "I know there's a 'bling' somewhere." But yeah, so it is-- that's something that I think I've been... it's been making me kind of re-wrestle with my normal, like, "what do I normally think about Asian representation?" Because like, yes, we aren't represented enough. But also, we don't just want to be represented as the smart Asian or the fetishized Asian, or whatever, you know? Because we don't want to be stereotypes. So that means we should be able to play every role. 

Sarah  

Yeah. 

Jojo  

Just like a white person would be able to play any role. 

Sarah  

Exactly. Yeah. 

Jojo  

So I don't know, I guess that is something that I think I always... I still have a question about. So it makes me wonder, even with this role, that having her show a different side of Asian representation... obviously, if it's something that's not accurate at all, that's a totally different story. But yeah, I guess I mean... not trying to justify, necessarily, what the directors and producers were doing. 

Sarah  

Right. 

Jojo  

But it makes me wonder what the intention behind it was. 

Sarah  

Right. And the other thing that is problematic is... so this is her later, in the bar. 

Jojo  

Mmm. Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And at first her husband is like, "Oh, she's not coming to the show at the bar, because she has problems with alcohol." And then it shows her later, breaking into this locked cabinet in their house. And we're meant to assume that that's where the alcohol is. But it actually turns out to be full of ping pongs... ping pong balls.

Jojo  

[laughs] Okay. 

Sarah  

And then she shows up at the bar in this outfit and starts performing. And it turns out that she's doing a show with the ping pong balls. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

I think by your face, you might know what I'm saying. We're keeping this a family friendly podcast. 

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

She does something inappropriate with the ping pong balls. 

Jojo  

[laughs] Uh huh.

Sarah  

So I think that was another part of the criticism, is that like, she's doing this weird exoticized... sideshow, almost. You know? And it turns her into sort of a caricature. 

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

And not a real flesh and blood human. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah, I can definitely see that.

Sarah  

But... I do love this outfit. [both laugh] I love her zebra outfit. 

Jojo  

Yes. So funny. 

Sarah  

Yeah. So this pink dress is from when they're at dinner. And the first time we meet her, she's very dressed down. Almost like, you know, she's sort of acclimated to the bush, her Australian outback lifestyle. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

But then when she has people over for dinner, she's gonna dress up. And so she wears this very skimpy, little revealing hot pink dress. And this is also sort of meant to communicate to us, like, "Oh, she might be a little bit-- what's up with her?" Like, she might not be normal, or she might be a little... I don't want to say "slutty" because I don't use words like that.

Jojo  

Risque? 

Sarah  

Yeah, risque. You know.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I feel like the audience is meant to judge her a little bit. And I'm definitely uncomfortable with with that. 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

'Cuz I saw her and was like, "ooh, she's cool." And then my sister said-- so my sister has seen the stage show. And she said that she does do the ping pong ball number, but it's turned into a whole song. She gets her own song. 

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

And she has way more of a backstory in the musical, apparently. 

Jojo  

Ahhh.

Sarah  

So I think they fleshed her out a little bit more--tried to flesh her out more--and made her less erratic... made her behavior less... yeah, erratic-seeming. I don't wanna say "crazy" 'cuz I don't call people crazy. [laughs] Just dancing around all the words I'm trying not to use. Ah, anyway. Okay, so yeah, those are my thoughts on that. I really like her outfits. So she's got that going for her. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

When she leaves, she-- so her time in the movie is very short. She basically drives off and leaves him. Which it's like, "yeah, you probably should. He doesn't treat you well." She's wearing a very amazing silver spangled bra.

Jojo  

Oooh. 

Sarah  

Which I also didn't have space for in my pictures. [both laugh] 

Jojo  

Too many photos. 

Sarah  

I know. Maybe I'll throw it up on the Pinterest.

Jojo  

Pinterest board. 

Sarah  

Just add a bunch of bonuses to the Pinterest board. Okay, so all that we have left now is basically sort of the finale. And this is...

Jojo  

Oh my goodness. 

Sarah  

I know. This is their number that they perform at the hotel. They finally arrive, and they perform this number. And at first I thought that it was showing a passage of time, like they were doing the show multiple days. But then at the end of the scene, it's clear that it's the same night. So they do these quick changes that are literally humanly impossible. [both laugh] So it's sort of-- that is sort of a fantasy, where it's like, "oh, and suddenly they're in a different outfit," you know? 

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

These ones...? Not my favorite. They're... you know, they're very campy and fun, just like everything else. But I'm unclear how they relate to each other. 

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

And they're performing, you know...

Jojo  

Kinda looks like a dandelion in the middle.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But like, crossed with a lion? [both laugh]

Sarah  

A dandy lion. Yeah, yeah, it looks-- it's clearly sort of floral. The theme with the two on the right is floral. But then Mitzi on the left is just wearing a flapper-y... 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

...sort of number. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

It's a little disjointed. 

Jojo  

RIght.

Sarah  

I like the looks... I mean, I like the yellow one the best. And then the other two are just kind of wacky, but fun. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then change into these. [laughs] So these are like, ostriches or emus? I don't know. 

Jojo  

Emus, yeah.

Sarah  

Do they have...? It's emus, right, in Australia?

Jojo  

Emus are in Australia. Yes.

Sarah  

So that's amazing. I don't really have much else. 

Jojo  

I also love that they're different colored feathers. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. And it's like the feather of the breast of the bird is their wig. 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Very nice. Very nice. They have really fun makeup in this, too. It's very frosty and blue. Love. ...Oh, I was-- I haven't been looking at my notes at all. And I forgot all these things I wanted to say. [laughs]

Jojo  

That's great. No, you're good. 

Sarah  

I want to briefly talk about sort of maybe how drag has evolved and changed since this movie was made. Because, A... obviously these--I think all of these actors are straight--men would not be playing, probably, drag queens in a movie if it was made nowadays. But also, I noticed that a lot of the drag looks are not heavily padded, there's not a lot of like, female illusion that is happening. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

You can tell, you can always tell, that they're not "passing" as women. 

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

And I think that drag nowadays... so in my extensive "Drag Race" watching, I've noticed that in the early days of drag race, queens used to get critiqued if they didn't wear a lot of padding, and if they still sort of looked like a boy. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

But nowadays, a lot of queens are not padding at all, and they're still... and they're excelling at drag. So it's like, we've gone from extreme to extreme. And then now it's like, they can all sort of coexist.

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

Because some queens really care about looking feminine, and then some kind of don't. So I think that that's really cool. Because like, it creates diversity in drag, you know, and diversity is important in all aspects of life. And all forms of drag should be acceptable forms of drag. So I found it interesting that like... the makeup, too, in this movie is like... it's not fooling you. [laughs] Does that make sense? 

Jojo  

Yeah. Right, right.

Sarah  

And this is pre... you know, I've heard older drag queens be like, "you know, before YouTube, before beauty tutorials, you kind of had to just figure it out on your own or learn from your fellow drag queens, your drag mother or your friends," you know? 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So it's like, they were kind of just making it up and going, "Well, this looks good." And ...it did. It looks good! 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So that's what I wanted to say. I just found it very interesting that like, it's never... the drag in this movie is not really about looking super feminine. Even though one of them is a trans woman. It's clear that she's being played by a cisgender man who is not on hormones or anything. 

Jojo  

RIght.

Sarah  

So he's still looks very masculine, even though he's playing a woman. So... that's that on that. I felt like that was really a long monologue. [laughs]

Jojo  

That's okay. 

Sarah  

I just really like drag, okay?

Jojo  

I think we both went on very long monologue today. [laughs] 

Sarah  

That's okay. That's good. That means that we're excited to talk. I also feel like when I clock myself, I'm always like... I always feel like I'm talking for a really long time. But lots of times, I could talk longer. So this is me talking longer.

Jojo  

Right. 

Sarah  

Anyway, okay. I only have a few pictures left. Okay, so this is also from the finale number. And this is like, they're lizards. Like, [puts on very bad Australian accent] Australian Outback lizards. [both laugh] That was my accent.

Jojo  

Thank you for that accent. [both laugh]

Sarah  

You're so welcome. So this lizard look is like... it's down, and then they like, put it over their shoulders so that it's like a... you know those lizards that have the crown... 

Jojo  

Oh, yeah, yeah. 

Sarah  

...that sort of puffs up?

Jojo  

Like the old dinosaurs? 

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly like that. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

So that's what this is. And then I assume that those lizards also have black tongues, because their tongues are painted black. [laughs]

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

Very fun. This is my favorite, coming up here. So this is sort of like a Marie Antoinette homage?

Jojo  

Oooh. 

Sarah  

Light up wig up here, and then a cage crinoline with hardly any skirt over it. I love that. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

And then they make the Sydney Opera House out of them!

Jojo  

Oh my gosh. 

Sarah  

Isn't that cute?

Jojo  

That is really cute.

Sarah  

So it's like, organza and some sort of hoop thing, and then they're holding it and they're dancing around and then they make this little formation and it's the Opera House. I think that's really fun.

Jojo  

Ohh, so cool. 

Sarah  

So Australian.

Jojo  

Is this a stage that they're on? 

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Like, what's happening in the background? Okay.

Sarah  

This is at the...

Jojo  

Like, where are they?

Sarah  

...club/hotel that the wife works at, which is where he's booked the gig. 

Jojo  

Okay. Got it. 

Sarah  

Oh, and then basically at the end, she comes-- she and his son come with them back to... I think they're from Sydney. So like, they go back so that he can spend time with his actual son. And then Bernadette, the trans woman, actually stays behind with this guy who was married to Cynthia, but... his name's Bob. But they basically-- it's implied that they're like, going to start a romance and live together and so she stays with him. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Okay. 

Sarah  

It was sweet, but I was also kind of like, not really willing to forgive him for how he treated Cynthia.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

'Cuz he was not nice to her. Okay, only a couple more. So this is them finally doing the rock climb in drag. And I pulled these pictures because I love... I think what makes this movie iconic is the juxtaposition of these really extreme showgirl-y, campy drag outfits and the wilderness of the Australian outback. [laughs]

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah  

There's just something so amazing about them in full getup just against, like, red rocks. I just love it. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

And then here's sort of a close up of those outfits. Very nice. Very nice. 

Jojo  

Oh, my goodness. 

Sarah  

And then I have one last boy look of Guy Pierce's to talk about because I'm obsessed with these pants.

Jojo  

Oh my gosh, those are great. 

Sarah  

Look at them! I would wear these.

Jojo  

They're like leggings. 

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah, they're clearly stretchy. Once again... 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

...his body looking very correct. Love it. 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I love his lil' headscarves he wears. Oh, he's wearing a bracelet around his bicep, which I was like... 

Jojo  

Like a cuff?

Sarah  

Yeah, you can kind of see it in this picture right here. It's metal. And it's like, around his bicep. [laughs]

Jojo  

Oh, I see, I see.

Sarah  

Is that it? Yeah.

Jojo  

A fun one to end on.

Sarah  

Yeah. Oh, and I just wrote-- so they... at the end they change into outfits that are like, not as good compared to all the other ones. So it's definitely like, it helps you sort of... it keeps that sort of DIY. Like, clearly these are not rich people, but they love the art of drag. So they're just excited to wear sequins and stuff. I pulled them and then I had to cut them because I just...

Jojo  

Not enough. Not enough space.

Sarah  

...wasn't willing to sacrifice any of these. Exactly. 

Jojo  

Yeah. 

Sarah  

So yeah, that's it. That's "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert."

Both  

Woohoo!

Jojo  

Good job!

Sarah  

Thank you.

Jojo  

Those are some fun costumes for sure. 

Sarah  

It's super fun. And now I'm excited to be like, "Yes, I understand the reference completely," when other people reference it, you know.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah, I mean, even with "The Birdcage," I'm kind of like, "Oh, now it makes so much more sense." Like, I understand. 

Sarah  

Yes. My favorite part of that movie is when Robin Williams is in the dance rehearsal. And he's like, "Martha Graham, Martha Graham, Fosse, Fosse!" That's the best part. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah, that's the one that's, I think, quoted the most too. So I'm always like, "Oh, yeah, that makes a lot more sense." [laughs]

Sarah  

As a dancer, I always just really loved... I appreciate a little dance joke, you know? [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah. I'm not gonna lie. The whole time. I was watching the movie, all I could think of is like, RIP Robin Williams. Like, why aren't you here anymore?

Sarah  

I know. It's...

Jojo  

Made me very sad. 

Sarah  

It's truly heartbreaking that like, someone who brought--especially people of our generation--so much joy, suffered from depression so much. 

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And it's just like a real reminder that like, even if someone is really good at comedy, and makes other people laugh, it doesn't mean that inside, they aren't suffering. I think a lot of people who are really funny actually, like...

Jojo  

There's such an inner struggle.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah. I think that a lot of comedians struggle with mental health stuff. And it's like they use comedy as a coping mechanism, you know? 

Jojo  

Yeah. Scary and sad. But anyways, I did appreciate the movie.

Sarah  

Good! I'm glad you liked it.

Jojo  

Not to end on a sad note. [both laugh] But yes.

Sarah  

My friend Kayla and I, pre COVID times, were trying to get together and have gay movie nights. Just because we're both fans, you know? 

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And we watched... I think we managed to have two, because we're both really busy. We watched "Mamma Mia," and then we watched "The Birdcage." And we need to reinstate...

Jojo  

Oh, "Mamma Mia."

Sarah  

"Mamma Mia" is so good. 

Jojo  

That's a fun one, too. 

Sarah  

It's-- I mean, it isn't good, but it is. You know what I mean? [both laugh] 

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, that is our episode for today. 

Sarah  

We did it.

Jojo  

How did we do on time? Oh, we went a little over. 

Sarah  

Yeah, we can cut... I'll, you know...

Jojo  

That's okay. We'll cut some things out. [both laugh]

Sarah  

We'll see what ends up getting cut. Yeah, don't forget to rate and review us. That's how people find us. And we are still donating $1 to Dress for Success for every review we get. And also, if you don't have time to leave a review, you can just hit that five stars and that counts anyway.

Jojo  

Yeah, absolutely. Still a review.

Sarah  

Yeah. So please do that. We appreciate it. 

Jojo  

Definitely. Well, thank you so much for listening. We hope to see you on the next one. 

Sarah  

Yeah. Take care! 

Jojo  

We'll see you soon. 

Sarah  

Okay, bye. 

Jojo  

Bye.

Sarah  

I almost pressed the "leave" button. [laughs]

Jojo  

I did too. I was like, "Oh, end!" [both laugh]

Sarah  

I was like, "BYE, Jojo!" [both laugh]

[OUTRO]

Jojo

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 19: Black Mirror #4.1 & Doctor Who #5.10

coming soon

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 18: Poldark #3.7 & Outlander #1.7

coming soon

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 17: Josie and the Pussycats & Pitch Perfect

Please consult these links for accompanying images:  Josie & the Pussycats: Instagram pt.1, pt.2; Pinterest Pitch Perfect: Instagram pt.1, pt.2; Pinterest

Sarah Timm & Jojo Siu: 0:00

Welcome to the costume plot.

Jojo Siu: 0:01

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah Timm: 0:02

And I'm Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo Siu: 0:13

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in the Costume Plot.

Sarah Timm: 0:35

All right, Hello.

Jojo Siu: 0:38

Hello. Welcome back to the Costume Plot.

Sarah Timm: 0:41

Here we are again. So nice to be here.

Jojo Siu: 0:45

And just one episode today. Yay!

Sarah Timm: 0:47

Yeah, it always feels a little more relaxed when we only have to record one at a time.

Jojo Siu: 0:53

The back to backs definitely feel like a lot more pressure.

Sarah Timm: 0:56

Yeah. And it's just...yeah, it's more homework too, even though it's enjoyable, homework.

Jojo Siu: 1:02

True. Very true.

Sarah Timm: 1:04

So JoJo, and I were just talking about this, but I'm gonna say it to our listeners. I think we've decided we're going to, in addition to having our photos on Instagram and on the YouTube slideshows, we're gonna start a Pinterest account, so that each episode has its own Pinterest board. Because we're finding limitations in Instagram, only being able to post a certain amount of images. And we don't really like cutting ourselves down as much as we have to.

Jojo Siu: 1:33

Especially for some of these more fun movies with fun costumes.

Sarah Timm: 1:37

Yeah, there's some where I'm just like, "I'm not willing to make any more cuts." I have to talk all about all of these. So that'll be going up soon, hopefully. We'll obviously link to it. I'm probably going to have to put a link tree in our Instagram bio. So that

Jojo Siu: 1:54

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 1:54

You can access all of the stuff you have to access.

Jojo Siu: 1:57

Absolutely.

Sarah Timm: 1:58

So yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:59

Thanks for doing that, Sarah.

Sarah Timm: 2:00

Sure.

Jojo Siu: 2:01

Sarah's been working hard.

Sarah Timm: 2:03

Yeah. And then we're working on transcribing, too. We want to make the podcast more accessible. And we're, you know, trying to fit it into both of our busy schedules. So we're doing it as fast as we can. It's kind of slow going though.

Jojo Siu: 2:17

Thank you for being patient with us.

Sarah Timm: 2:18

Yeah. Currently, we have transcripts for episodes 11 through 15. Up. And those are linked in the episode descriptions. And then they're, they're all in a Tumblr blog. So it's just thecostumepl t.tumblr.com if you want to go look at all of them. Perfect. So that's all of it.

Jojo Siu: 2:37

Thanks Sarah! I was looking at some of your Instagram, our stories that we were posting about how it translated to coffee pot instead of the costume plot. And that definitely happened to me on more than one occasion. It was like "Yep, we are now the coffee pot, and not the costume plot."

Sarah Timm: 2:57

I could not stop laughing and every time I think about it, it makes me giggle. Welcome to the coffee pot.

Jojo Siu: 3:05

I mean, I guess if you're listening to us in the morning, it's a good coffee pot waker upper,

Sarah Timm: 3:11

It's almost like it was...that sounds like something that you feed into Google Translate and it translates it wrong.

Jojo Siu: 3:18

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 3:19

The Coffee Pot.

Jojo Siu: 3:19

That's how we get other language translations incorrect. 'Cause Google just translates it to the wrong thing.

Sarah Timm: 3:26

Exactly. That's what it...Yeah, I love it. Anyway, welcome to the coffee pot. Thanks for listening.

Jojo Siu: 3:33

Yes. So I'm really excited about our theme today, Sarah, You want to tell our audience what our theme is?

Sarah Timm: 3:40

Yes.

Jojo Siu: 3:42

Very excited about this since last episode.

Sarah Timm: 3:44

I've been stoked because the theme might as well be two of Sarah's absolute favorite movies in the world. But our theme is...we were going to do movie musicals. And then we started talking about movies that just have music. So I think we're calling this theme comedies with music.

Jojo Siu: 4:00

Yes.

Sarah Timm: 4:01

And so I have chosen...

Jojo Siu: 4:03

Very appropriate way to describe that.

Sarah Timm: 4:05

Right. And there are a lot of other movies that I even thought of that could fit in this theme. So we could do a repeat of this theme, because there's a lot of fun movies like this.

Jojo Siu: 4:15

So many.

Sarah Timm: 4:16

I have chosen one of my absolute favorite movies in the world, "Josie the Pussycats".

Jojo Siu: 4:23

So good.

Sarah Timm: 4:24

So let's dive right in. My personal history with this film is that...I don't know if I saw it in theaters. But my best friend in seventh grade, Rochelle, owned it. So every time I went to her house, I made her watch it with me. Because I didn't own it.

Jojo Siu: 4:42

I love that.

Sarah Timm: 4:43

And then we would...I remember us walking to class quoting it back and forth and people teasing us, because we wouldn't stop giggling and quoting Josie and the Pussycats. So that's...it's very special to me. And also it's recently sort of in the news again, because it had its 20th anniversary, this last month.

Jojo Siu: 5:01

I didn't realized that!

Sarah Timm: 5:02

Yeah, which makes me feel ancient. You and me both, Sarah. Yeah. And also I think that Gen Z has kind of discovered it a little bit because Gen Z are really into Y2K stuff. And...

Jojo Siu: 5:20

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 5:20

Early 2000s. So, I'll just say this right now, it was a pretty big budget movie and it bombed at the box office, but it's become a cult favorite now. And

Jojo Siu: 5:30

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 5:31

It's only getting more popular as it goes, as the years go on, which makes me very happy because I have loved it since 2001. And I feel validated.

Jojo Siu: 5:41

It makes me laugh too, because the new show Riverdale on CW has kind of brought back that whole Archie Comics and Josie and the Pussycats world back into play. So people that are watching that now, I don't know that they realize there was an original Josie and the Pussycats and an actual comic that all of that whole world was based on, but I don't know, I just really loved that whole concept of focusing on the characters from that world, and from that comic.

Sarah Timm: 6:09

I love the Josie in Riverdale too, I would watch a spin off about her.

Jojo Siu: 6:13

I do too.

Sarah Timm: 6:13

I think she's great.

Jojo Siu: 6:14

Yeah, absolutely. It's great.

Sarah Timm: 6:16

So yeah, it was based on Archie Comics, like you said, and it's also...there was a Hanna Barbera cartoon series of Josie the Pussycats in the 70s. So they took some of their visual inspiration from the cartoon as well. It, like I said, it came out in 2001. The directors are Harry Elfont and Deborah Kaplan, who are a team who work together a lot. They also wrote it, and they also wrote and directed, "Can't Hardly Wait". And they have a couple of other projects too. They don't...their IMDb's were not substantial, but what they had was good stuff, you know? The costumes are by Leesa Evans, who is kind of a go-to designer for comedies. So she did "Train Wreck". She did "Bridesmaids", which is one of my favorites, "American Pie". She's done a lot of Judd Apatow stuff. And then her most current credit is the new live action "Powerpuff Girls" show, which...

Jojo Siu: 7:14

I can't wait. I'm so excited.

Sarah Timm: 7:17

I was like, oh, man.

Jojo Siu: 7:18

Chloe Bennet is gonna be the pink Powerpuff Girl, I think...Blossom?

Sarah Timm: 7:23

There's bubbles...yeah, Buttercup is the green one right? Blossom is...

Jojo Siu: 7:26

Yes

Sarah Timm: 7:27

Is the pink one, yeah.

Jojo Siu: 7:28

Blossom's the pink one...

Sarah Timm: 7:29

Then Bubbles is blue.

Jojo Siu: 7:29

But Chloe Bennet from Agents of SHIELD is going to be playing Blossom.

Sarah Timm: 7:34

Oooo.

Jojo Siu: 7:34

So I'm very excited.

Sarah Timm: 7:36

I know that on Twitter, there was like a set picture and everybody was really upset with the costumes. But it seemed to me that maybe, I don't know what they're doing with it. But it seems to me like it was sort of,, you know, in the very first Tobey Maguire Spiderman, his first SpiderMan outfit is like sweat pants. I feel like that's...

Jojo Siu: 7:56

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 7:57

It's like their first iteration.

Jojo Siu: 7:58

Yeah, kind of how they started.

Sarah Timm: 8:00

Yeah. And I was not ready to freak out with everyone else. I'm like, I'll wait. I'll reserve my judgment.

Jojo Siu: 8:07

Well plus, it's so early right now that it's possible that they just posted some promo material that has nothing to do with the actual...

Sarah Timm: 8:15

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 8:15

What's going to be in the film.

Sarah Timm: 8:16

or it could have been to...I don't even know if it was officially a released photo, or if it was like someone had snuck the photo like a paparazzi thing.

Jojo Siu: 8:23

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Timm: 8:24

So who knows? But

Jojo Siu: 8:27

That's exciting, though.

Sarah Timm: 8:29

Yeah. Yeah, so like I said, it was a bomb at the box office. It had a budget of around $30 million. But it made like 15, which...

Jojo Siu: 8:38

Oooph...

Sarah Timm: 8:38

Is upsetting...

Jojo Siu: 8:41

Barely half.

Sarah Timm: 8:42

Yea. I think it's because...it's a really smart satire. But a lot of reviews at the time, didn't quite get that it was a satire. And it was self aware. And even...I read in the Wikipedia that it has been sort of re-reviewed by critics over the years and they're kind of...they've come around to it actually being smarter than they gave it credit for in 2001, which is very...

Jojo Siu: 9:08

So sad that it happened later.

Sarah Timm: 9:12

Another notable thing about this review is that it's full of product placement, which is part of the whole message about capitalism and branding. And pretty much all of that product placement was not paid for. They just did it without getting...without the companies giving them money for it. So it was...they were basically advertising these companies for free, because they wanted to do this whole branding thing, which I thought was funny.

Jojo Siu: 9:40

Interesting.

Sarah Timm: 9:41

Yeah. And it's a pretty prescient look at how the media landscape has evolved.It's a satire and it's sort of a hyper...

Jojo Siu: 9:54

Hyper-realized?

Sarah Timm: 9:54

Yeah, version of media and stuff and I think it's actually...it was pretty ahead of its time in terms of now what we see with celebrities and people being a brand and everything about being selling yourself. So I think that it was pretty ahead of its time there.

Jojo Siu: 10:13

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 10:14

Okay. Let's get into these costumes. Yeah, okay.

Jojo Siu: 10:24

Ughhhh. This is just so good.

Sarah Timm: 10:27

Okay, so this is DuJour, the boy band. Oh, so just a brief plot rundown. This is about... Josie the Pussycats are a trio. They're a rock band. And they basically...they get signed, spur-of-the-moment by this record label guy. But it turns out that the record label "Mega Records" is sending subliminal messages through the music that they sell, to get teenagers to buy stuff, basically. And it's like a government operation. And it's like this whole underground secret thing, where they're they're conspiring to make the youth of America into mindless capitalist drones basically. So DuJour is the boy band at the opening of the movie that are the, you know, they're the band DuJour of the moment, and they figure it out. And then Mega Records basically crashes their plane to kill them, so that they don't spill the secret of the subliminal messaging, but they don't die. Thank goodness for

Jojo Siu: 11:32

Whew. that.

Sarah Timm: 11:35

So, and this is actuallyfun cameos too. Cuz this is Donald Faison from "Scrubs".

Jojo Siu: 11:40

Yeah, I was...I know I was like, ohh! I forgot he was in this movie.

Sarah Timm: 11:44

And then Seth Green is in the top hat and then Breckin Meyer from "Clueless" is in the bandana. I don't know who the fourth guy is. So sorry to that man.

Jojo Siu: 11:53

Sorry, no name.

Sarah Timm: 11:54

I like...oh, I'm Lisa Evans said that she's a big fan of monochrome, she likes to kind of tell a visual story by dressing characters all in the same versions of the same color. And I can see that all over this movie. She uses it to tie people together. And especially the pop groups. They're basically...every time you see them together, they're dressed all in a theme. So DuJour here has a red and black fire theme. I like the the ohm symbol right here, because it's so typical like early aughts, faux-spiritualism kind of thing. And then the the boa and the top hat is a little bit out of left field.

Jojo Siu: 12:43

Yeah, definitely. Especially against everybody else.

Sarah Timm: 12:47

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 12:47

I can see the color matching, but the silhouette is definitely very different.

Sarah Timm: 12:52

It makes me wonder if they made a decision about this specific character, that the audience just isn't aware of. Is he...

Jojo Siu: 13:01

Right.

Sarah Timm: 13:01

A fan of...I don't know...Elton John, or something? I don't know.

Jojo Siu: 13:05

Could be. I will say that the no name character makes me think of Kevin from Backstreet Boys.

Sarah Timm: 13:11

Oh, yeah. Yeah. He has a similar face.

Jojo Siu: 13:14

Sort of just the way he dresses and kind of body structure and also face shape and structure as well.

Sarah Timm: 13:21

Very Kevin from my Backstreet Boys. I will also say this soundtrack is nonstop bangers and is not on Spotify. So this is my formal application to Spotify.

Jojo Siu: 13:35

Oh...

Sarah Timm: 13:35

Get your act together!

Jojo Siu: 13:36

So disappointing.

Sarah Timm: 13:38

I'm gonna double check right now, because I...it wasn't. What if they have added it recently? Josie....

Jojo Siu: 13:44

Maybe this is the final push.

Sarah Timm: 13:47

Oh my god. It's on, it's on Spotify now. Oh my god, I take it back.

Jojo Siu: 13:50

Ah Yes!

Sarah Timm: 13:51

I take it back. It's on Spotify

Jojo Siu: 13:52

Your phone heard you Sarah.

Sarah Timm: 13:56

Maybe they added it for the 20th anniversary or something. They were like, Yeah, we got to get it on there. Okay.

Jojo Siu: 14:01

That would make sense.

Sarah Timm: 14:01

Sorry. Sorry Spotify, for yelling at you. Okay, so moving on. This is the Pussycats before their superstardom, when they're playing at the bowling alley. I their various sort of thrift store fashion. And I learned from there's a NYLON article that came out last month, an interview with Lisa Evans, which I was really grateful for. Because if the 20th anniversary hadn't happened, I wouldn't have these tidbits from Lisa, because this is an older movie it's not always easy to find interviews. She said that she and her team built 90% of the costumes, which was surprising to me.

Jojo Siu: 14:46

Wow.

Sarah Timm: 14:48

Because it's like a contemporary movie. But she said that it was important to her that... she was looking into trend forecasting and stuff and looking ahead of where they were when they were filming it, and she couldn't buy what she wanted off the rack, which is super low rise. They wear a lot of bell bottoms. And apparently those were not quite out in 2001. They were coming. You know, we spent a lot of our time in the early aughts in bell bottoms. At least I did. So yeah, so she built a ton of this, which I was just...I mean, it makes sense because it's a big big budget movie, but you don't automatically look at a contemporary movie and think, oh, they built all of it. So we have on the right, we have Josie--she's a jeans and T-shirts kind of girl. A lot of her stuff looks like it has raw edges, like she's cut it up and DIY-ed it. And then in the middle, we have Tara Reid at a career best, doing her best work.

Jojo Siu: 15:52

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 15:53

It's kind of all downhill from here for Tara Reid, unfortunately. She's sort of like a hippie. Oh, she said. Lisa said about...her (Tara Reid's) character's name is Melody...she said, "Oh, Tara Reid's characters' case: her whole thing was tripping upward. So there's this idea of 'Oh, her pants are so low, but somehow they stay on.' And her top seem like they just have a tiny piece of tape attached. She had a free spirit and there wasn't anything about her clothes that was encumbering her experience." So that's her vibe.

Jojo Siu: 16:25

I can definitely see that.

Sarah Timm: 16:28

Yeah, a lot of her clothes are just one single string holding it on, kind of thing.

Jojo Siu: 16:33

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 16:34

And then on the left, we have Rosario Dawson as Valerie, and she's a little bit more...she wears a little bit more structural stuff, but she also wears dresses and the other two don't really wear dresses. So she'll...you see her in sort of a MIDI length dress, right here!

Jojo Siu: 16:52

Ooooo! I forgot how many dresses she wore in this.

Sarah Timm: 16:55

Yeah, yeah, this is right before they get their big makeover. So they're about to be attacked by the John Frieda stylists. Which is a fun scene.

Jojo Siu: 17:07

Isn't that Alan Cummings in the back too?

Sarah Timm: 17:09

Yes. He plays Wyatt.

Jojo Siu: 17:11

He keeps popping up in our movies.

Sarah Timm: 17:13

I know. He's a prolific actor. He does a lot of good work.

Jojo Siu: 17:18

Mm hmm.

Sarah Timm: 17:19

Yeah, he plays Wyatt, the Mega Records manager guy, and he's very funny.

Jojo Siu: 17:25

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 17:26

Okay. Oh, I'm going to talk a little bit about the makeup. So speaking of the makeover scene, I can only find good shots of Melody. So I'm gonna use her, kind of as an example. This is her before the big pop star makeover. So she has green eyeshadow, which seems really 70s to me. And that kind of fits with her vibe. You can really see the 70s inspiration in her clothes.

Jojo Siu: 17:50

Right.

Sarah Timm: 17:50

And then Josie and Valerie are very like natural barefaced before the makeover, and then their makeover is very typical of early aughts. It's really frosty colors. Lots of lavenders and pinks and pearlescent stuff and then a lot of body glitter, which just takes me back.

Jojo Siu: 18:13

Oh all the body glitter.

Sarah Timm: 18:15

So this is her in the makeover scene. You can see the lavender...

Jojo Siu: 18:18

Oh my gosh.

Sarah Timm: 18:19

...of it all. I know. And then I have a few pictures of them in their super popstar iterations. This is from their music video for their single.

Jojo Siu: 18:31

I forgot about this.

Sarah Timm: 18:33

You can really tell that they built these ones, because obviously they're all made of the same fabric. Yeah. It's kind of like a Destiny's Child vibe, where they're all made of the same fabric, but they're all wearing something different in it.

Jojo Siu: 18:44

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 18:45

I like it.

Jojo Siu: 18:45

Some of us are very Destiny's Child as well.

Sarah Timm: 18:48

Yeah. I like Valerie's a lot--her dress with the cutouts and the chains--and then I have this shot, because she also has jewels just going down her arm.

Jojo Siu: 18:58

Oh my gosh. So funny. I still see that at raves though. People will put the body jewels all over. I mean, maybe not necessarily in that same pattern. But...

Sarah Timm: 19:08

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 19:09

...it's pretty common.

Sarah Timm: 19:10

I don't know if I've seen just a straight line of jewels. I like it.

Jojo Siu: 19:13

Yeah, that's true. I do too.

Sarah Timm: 19:16

I think Y2K because it was, you know, a new millennium, it was very spacey and futuristic--was kind of a lot of the stuff that people were designing. And does that count as retro futurism now, since it's been 20 years? I don't know actually.

Jojo Siu: 19:38

It's interesting because I'm seeing this too and thinking of all...how big silver was at that time as well. Gold was kind of out.

Sarah Timm: 19:45

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 19:46

And we went we went straight to silver and everything silver. So I think that had a lot to do with that futurism and kind of new "Space Age" type of look.

Sarah Timm: 19:57

Yeah, I feel gold was out for...especially, I feel like a lot of people my age--I would have friends who are like, "Oh my god, I never wear gold", you know?

Jojo Siu: 20:06

I definitely was one of those people, until probably a year ago when rose gold started coming back in. But that's the only reason I was kind of like, "okay, gold is somewhat acceptable".

Sarah Timm: 20:20

I think with sort of more bohemian stuff, gold came back in and now the thing is, very tiny layered gold stuff. I feel like gold and silver are equally popular right now though.

Jojo Siu: 20:32

Yeah, definitely.

Sarah Timm: 20:33

So yeah. Anyway, yeah. Love it. Super cool. This is another one of them in all metallics. These are sort of like promo images.

Jojo Siu: 20:44

I love this look.

Sarah Timm: 20:46

I mean, they look so good. They look so cool. They...Josie wears a lot of these, clear...I'm gonna call them stripper shoes, because that's...

Jojo Siu: 20:58

...what they are.

Sarah Timm: 21:00

It's like a clear platform with a clear stiletto.

Jojo Siu: 21:04

Mmhmm.

Sarah Timm: 21:04

But...

Jojo Siu: 21:05

Beautiful.

Sarah Timm: 21:06

It's because she's tiny. She's very petite. She is. So, gotta give her some height. And then this is the classic image of them. It does show up in the movie as their Rolling Stone cover. And then it's basically the image of them that's on the poster for the movie. Look at Terry's low, low, low rise pants.

Jojo Siu: 21:28

And her barely their top.

Sarah Timm: 21:31

It's really commando probably, under there. I'm just saying.

Jojo Siu: 21:36

I do remember that being a very big trend in the 90s too--that top that she wears?Where it was kind of almost one handkerchief. It's like they took the handkerchief and made it into a shirt.

Sarah Timm: 21:46

Yes.

Jojo Siu: 21:47

And that's what she wears a lot of.

Sarah Timm: 21:49

Yeah. I do remember that from the movie. I remember those too. I remember...and they're coming back. I mean, I feel like we're repeating ourselves, but it's all back. It's just a square or a diamond with one string ar und the back. And that's a op.

Jojo Siu: 22:05

Yep. Yep. I've been seeing that a lot lately.

Sarah Timm: 22:08

Yeah. As someone with a big chest, that's never really been part of my personal journey tops like that.

Jojo Siu: 22:13

I feel...I don't have a big chest, but I have big, wider shoulders. So it always made me look really like I had gigantic shoulders, more than normal. I was like, "Oh, this does not look good"

Sarah Timm: 22:25

More power to you, if that looks good on you.

Jojo Siu: 22:28

Yep.

Sarah Timm: 22:28

Great job. Mm hmm. Oh, and then also, I have not mentioned yet their headbands. But obviously they're the Pussycats and then they turn into Josie and the Pussycats and they are always wearing some sort of ear. Which I think is very cute. I like that they're on studded headbands.

Jojo Siu: 22:48

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 22:49

You would think that it would be cheesy looking. But I don't think it is.

Jojo Siu: 22:53

Especially with that cheetah print. I think sometimes I think older, kind of outdated with cheetah print. But I think it does...it....They do it very tastefully.

Sarah Timm: 23:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they have tails too. A lot of the time, they have tails. You can see it in this picture.

Jojo Siu: 23:07

I keep forgetting that.

Sarah Timm: 23:09

It's pretty cute. What else? Let's see. My pictures are kind of in a weird order. But I'm going to move to the party. So this is a record label party that they throw for them. And this leopard gown is chef's kiss. Amazing. Like the stuff of my seventh grade dreams. Is this leopard gown.

Jojo Siu: 23:34

Yes.

Sarah Timm: 23:35

Here's a shot of the back of it.

Jojo Siu: 23:37

Yes, I do remember that.

Sarah Timm: 23:39

Yeah. And there's a whole scene where we're Alan, you know, the guy that she likes, has to fix the chain for her. And he's all sweaty and fumbling about it. It's so cute. But she also says--there's a line of dialogue where she's like, "Oh, they sent over this dress. I didn't pick it out", but she holds up her hands and she's like, "but I cut it up and I made wristbands". So I think it's funny because the front of it--It looks like maybe it's sequins of some kind. And the front of it doesn't look like it was cut up by her in her hotel room.

Jojo Siu: 24:09

Definitely not.

Sarah Timm: 24:10

So she must be a good seamstress then. Here's another shot--this is of the chain and then look at this glitter tattoo thing she has.

Jojo Siu: 24:20

Oh my gosh.

Sarah Timm: 24:22

Blast from the past.

Jojo Siu: 24:24

I love it.

Sarah Timm: 24:25

It looks like a pressed flower almost with glitter on it and then just glued on to her.

Jojo Siu: 24:31

But then it's got little dots on the middle too.

Sarah Timm: 24:34

Yeah, maybe those are little gems

Jojo Siu: 24:35

That little kind of raised so it almost looks like they've bejeweled the inside.

Sarah Timm: 24:40

I think it's wonderful.

Jojo Siu: 24:41

Dedication.

Sarah Timm: 24:44

And then at the party, we can see Mel & Val also sort of in their pop star versions of their regular clothes, which is Val in a long dress and then Mel in a matching little halter top and super low rise pants, once again. And then she has a really cute headband on. I like this headband on Melanie.

Jojo Siu: 25:07

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 25:08

It's great. And then of course Josie's hair is so of the time. I...when I cut my hair short in my junior year, I would totally do the little flip with my hair straightener.

Jojo Siu: 25:22

I think there were a couple times, I literally showed pictures of Rachel Leigh Cook to my hairdresser and just said, "Do this. I just want her hair".

Sarah Timm: 25:34

The other example I find I always think of is Reese Witherspoon in "Sweet Home Alabama". She has that flippy, flippy blonde, short cut.

Jojo Siu: 25:42

That's another great movie.

Sarah Timm: 25:43

I love that one. Oh, yeah. And I wrote down here that compared to Josie, the other two don't look quite as glamorous.They look great, but I feel the, you know, throughout the movie, the record company is trying to basically pit them against each other to make Josie into a solo artist. It's not really clear why.They clearly do really well as a threesome, but...

Jojo Siu: 26:08

Right.

Sarah Timm: 26:09

There's a whole plot where they try to...they give Josie a CD of they're single, and she listens to it and it has a subliminal message track in it, that's basically like, "you should have a solo career. The other two are dead weight". So it's clear that Josie in this equation--three of them all together--is the one that stands out, because this dress is just like so, so good.

Jojo Siu: 26:32

Yeah. Well, I was noticing too, even for the other two, they've almost dropped the waistline way low. So even the emphasis of where is...I mean, I guess to a modern I looking at this now....it's definitely two different silhouettes, in comparison to the way that they've clearly emphasized the small waist and the wider hip for Josie.

Sarah Timm: 26:56

That's a good point. Totally. Totally. So I'm going to move away from Josie for just a moment. And go to Fiona played by... Yes! ...The incredible Parker Posey who, every time I see her in anything, I'm like, "thank god Parker Posey is here". So with her character from the nylon article, Lisa said, "I thought of her character as wearing things that were so artistic, they almost couldn't be worn as streetstyle. Like you would see them in a museum or in a runway finale. Every single one of her outfits is like that, I was thinking of things that would have an element of Avante Garde high fashion with equal parts whimzy, and a sense of the ridiculous", which we can see here.

Jojo Siu: 27:42

This is one of my favorite dresses of hers.

Sarah Timm: 27:45

I cut...so the cuts that I did make were a couple of her other outfits, because all of her outfits are excellent. But this one I think is the best. It's....to describe it--it's a pink dress of some kind. But the important part is she's wearing a choker that has all these feathers suspended from it, via wire, I assume.

Jojo Siu: 28:07

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 28:07

So it looks like she's just surrounded by falling feathers. And there's a funny gag where she keeps whipping around and it makes a little sound every time she whips around.

Jojo Siu: 28:17

And whips people in the face.

Sarah Timm: 28:19

Yeah, it's so funny.

Jojo Siu: 28:21

So good.

Sarah Timm: 28:22

Yeah, so she's basically like the head of the record label. So she's clearly very wealthy and can spend all of her money on the most current fashion. But she's also in charge of the subliminal messaging department. So she's kind of an evil mastermind at the same time. And then this is her at the record party.

Jojo Siu: 28:44

I forgot about all these looks. So good.

Sarah Timm: 28:49

I know!

Jojo Siu: 28:50

Every time.

Sarah Timm: 28:51

It's a really fun...it looks like pleather sort of dress, and it's got all these suede polka dots. And then she has suede polka dots glued to her clavicle.

Jojo Siu: 29:05

I'm gonna start doing that again.

Sarah Timm: 29:08

They're on her back too.

Jojo Siu: 29:10

Oh, God.

Sarah Timm: 29:11

It's great. It's just great.

Jojo Siu: 29:13

I love it.

Sarah Timm: 29:15

No notes for improvement. And then here's Alan Cumming in a bronze snakeskin suit, which I enjoy. It's funny because suits don't really change that much. But then also 20 years later looking at this suit, the cut of it looks dated to me. So, clearly suits have changed. It's just in small ways that we don't really think about.

Jojo Siu: 29:38

They're so subtle, that you almost don't notice until it's way later.

Sarah Timm: 29:42

Right.

Jojo Siu: 29:42

It's a completely different silhouette.

Sarah Timm: 29:44

Totally. I think that what makes this one look a little bit dated is how high the break is. Which is, for those who don't know, the break is basically where the lapel ends and the buttons start. So it's where are the buttons start on your chest. And that moves up and down, you know, with the decades. And I think that right now, I've seen some on Oscar's carpets and stuff, like double-breasted suits with really high breaks. But I haven't quite seen this high of a single-breasted break.

Jojo Siu: 30:17

Yeah, single-breasted usually isn't that high.

Sarah Timm: 30:20

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 30:20

At least not nowadays.

Sarah Timm: 30:21

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 30:21

In contemporary.

Sarah Timm: 30:22

It looks so yeah! It...You say, a suit as a suit. But then, you look at this and you're like, "Okay, I can see that it looks...period, basically. It's weird to think of 20 years ago as period, but it is.

Jojo Siu: 30:36

I think also the shoulder pads, giving it that kind of stand out look, definitely help that dated look as well.

Sarah Timm: 30:43

I think the late '90s, early 2000's were a boxy time for for suit jackets, for sure.

Jojo Siu: 30:48

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 30:50

What else do I have? Let's see. Oh, I have Alexandra and Alexander ,who are siblings.

Jojo Siu: 30:58

Oh, yeah.

Sarah Timm: 31:01

Alexander is their manager. And they're basically just comic relief and excellent comic relief. So the Alexandra played by another of my favorite comedic actresses, Missi Pyle. I love her. I love her.

Jojo Siu: 31:18

I haven't seen her in a lot of stuff recently. But yeah, so funny every time I've seen her.

Sarah Timm: 31:24

I want her to have... You know how Kathryn Hahn is having a moment because she was in WandaVision.

Jojo Siu: 31:30

Mmmm. MmHmm, mmhmm.

Sarah Timm: 31:32

I want Missi Pyle to have that.

Jojo Siu: 31:33

Which I still have not seen yet! But I need to see it.

Sarah Timm: 31:35

I haven't seen it either. I know.

Jojo Siu: 31:36

This is another one we should watch together, Sarah!

Sarah Timm: 31:39

I know, I know. And I've had a couple people ask if we're gonna cover it. And I'm like, "I gotta watch it, first".

Jojo Siu: 31:45

Maybe that'll be our next mini episode.

Sarah Timm: 31:48

Maybe! That would be a good candidate. We can at least watch one or two episodes and cover the pilot or something, because I know that...well. I know that the show itself goes through a lot of time periods. That's why people like it.

Jojo Siu: 32:00

Right. That's definitely one we could do multiple mini episodes on. One for every decade.

Sarah Timm: 32:08

There's so much to watch. And honestly right now, I'm so busy with the Her Universe Fashion Show, that when I come home, all I want to do is watch a baking competition that I don't really have to pay attention to.

Jojo Siu: 32:18

I've been doing a lot of going back and rewatching stuff that I've already seen, because I don't have the capacity to pick up something new and process something new right now. I just need something in the background, that either does not require a lot of extra thinking or is not going to require a lot of extra effort on my brain to process what's happening.

Sarah Timm: 32:40

I totally...Yes, I'm right there with you. And I don't think that that's a bad thing. I think that it's been a stressful year and we should take comfort wherever we can. Absolutely. I am watching a couple new HBO shows though, including "the Nevers", which if you...is a really good costume show.

Jojo Siu: 32:56

I keep hearing about that! I don't have HBO, so I need to find someone who can let me borrow or something. But I've heard really good things about that though.

Sarah Timm: 33:07

It's really good. And I didn't know it was Joss Whedon. And I got kind of mad. He's, you know, been in the news as like, maybe not a great person. And I was like....

Jojo Siu: 33:18

That made me really sad too, because there's a lot of his other shows that I actually really, really love. And then the fact that they're associated with him, I was just like, ugh....

Sarah Timm: 33:27

Yeah

Jojo Siu: 33:29

That makes me sad.

Sarah Timm: 33:31

Anyway, we digress. Okay.

Jojo Siu: 33:34

Other story.

Sarah Timm: 33:35

So yeah, this is the Alexanderrrr and Alexandra. I want to come up with like a combined name, but that doesn't work.

Jojo Siu: 33:43

It's too close. The Alex's.

Sarah Timm: 33:45

The Alex's. I like the production design too. I kept this...I was gonna cut this photo for you know, brevity and all the photos, but I love...this is the house that the Pussycats live in before they get famous and it's just so cool inside, that I needed to keep this photo. And then the Alex's kind of are representative of what is currently fashionable, which in the course of the movie changes several times, because the subliminal messaging will be like "Orange is the new pink, you have to go buy orange clothes now. Throw away your pink clothes".

Jojo Siu: 34:21

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 34:22

So this is them in tones of pink at the beginning. And then as the movie goes on, you see them in different monochrome outfits and that's whatever color is popular and I have a couple of crowd shots at the end to kind of show that too. Which is more of Lisa Evans' monochrome thing coming in. It's everyone.

Jojo Siu: 34:40

Okay.

Sarah Timm: 34:41

Okay, so this is Alan and Josie on a date at the aquarium. And I got this because this is after she's a superstar. But she kind of dresses down for this date with him. So she's wearing...this is a shot for when they run away from the crowd, but she's wearing her stripper shoes again.

Jojo Siu: 35:03

Those clear heels!

Sarah Timm: 35:03

Yeah. And she's still so much shorter than him. She's so tiny. But she's kind of dressed down and it's almost like we can see that when she's with him, she feels like she can be herself and she doesn't have to be this superstar version of herself. She can be in jeans and a T-shirt again and still in a heel, you know, because she is a celebrity now and that's what she...I mean, she wears heels at the beginning too, there just different, but...

Jojo Siu: 35:30

Right.

Sarah Timm: 35:30

She's with him. She's like a reminder of where she came from. And he's like her constant. So that's why I wanted to talk about this outfit.

Jojo Siu: 35:41

I'm trying to figure out what's on his shirt, because I can't tell if it's in another language.

Sarah Timm: 35:45

It says "Old Fords never die", maybe?

Jojo Siu: 35:50

Okay, 'cause for some reason, I couldn't see the top of the "F" for "Ford", so it almost looked like Arabic alphabet...

Sarah Timm: 35:59

Oh

Jojo Siu: 35:59

...for a second. And I was like, "What is that language?"

Sarah Timm: 36:03

It's like a hot rod. So maybe it's a Ford...I'm trying to look...

Jojo Siu: 36:10

Maybe if I stand a little further back.

Sarah Timm: 36:13

Okay, yes. Anyway. Yeah. So back to Josie. So this is in her mega beeyotch mode. When she's...you can see she has the headphones on. She's listening to subliminal track. Oh, and then also I like this shot because you can see all the windows. This is her hotel suite and it says "Revlon" across the window.

Jojo Siu: 36:31

So much.

Sarah Timm: 36:32

So much product placement.

Jojo Siu: 36:33

So much advertising!

Sarah Timm: 36:35

And the next to her is a whole bowl of candy and snacks. It's all brands, all the time. One of my favorite scenes is when Tara Reid is...she's in the shower singing and it's a McDonald's shower. And her little sponge/body sponge that she's using is french fries.

Jojo Siu: 36:52

Oh, God. Oh, I think I do remember that.

Sarah Timm: 36:54

So funny.

Jojo Siu: 36:56

Funny.

Sarah Timm: 36:57

So yeah, so this is Josie's final form almost, as a popstar. It's a suit, a leopard print suit. And I have a full body shot.

Jojo Siu: 37:06

Which also...it just fits her so beautifully.

Sarah Timm: 37:08

It does. You can tell that they made this. And she's got her clear shoes on again. She loves those clear shoes.

Jojo Siu: 37:15

For the third time.

Sarah Timm: 37:17

What else did I write about this?

Jojo Siu: 37:19

She still looks so small here, though.

Sarah Timm: 37:21

I know she's little! Rachel's so tiny. Oh, I wrote it's a Pokemon evolution of her previous leopard print outfits. I don't know anything about Pokemon. So...hopefully I used that correctly. Oh, and I wrote... I'd say so. I wrote, "she is a product now. So she is the thing that the record company has created to sell". So she's...this is what they want to sell. This is what they want her to be. Not necessarily what she wants herself to be.

Jojo Siu: 37:49

Right.

Sarah Timm: 37:50

So let's move to the last sort of scene. This is before the big concert, where they were gonna really brainwash people, I guess. And I love this outfit. I have considered making this outfit for myself. And I still might do that.

Jojo Siu: 38:08

I think you totally should.

Sarah Timm: 38:10

My pants might be a little more high-waisted.

Jojo Siu: 38:15

Not quite so low-waisted

Sarah Timm: 38:17

Because I don't have Rachel Leigh Cook's abs. But I love it. It's like this blue leopard. It looks see-through, kind of. But the pants probably have a nude lining in them, I would imagine.

Jojo Siu: 38:33

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 38:33

And then it's a duster made of the same fabric with a lovely fur collar.

Jojo Siu: 38:40

I love that it's black around her neck, and then it goes into the blue.

Sarah Timm: 38:44

Yeah. It looks so good against her orangey red hair, too. I think it's really smart and really cool. And even though this is on an outfit she picked for herself--they're forcing her at this point to go to the concert--she looks great. Anyway.

Jojo Siu: 38:58

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 38:59

So this is her facing off against Fiona--Parker Posey's character. There's a lot happening.

Jojo Siu: 39:07

This is why we can't limit it, guys.

Sarah Timm: 39:09

I know! You can see...actually I love how in the background of this, you can see the Alex's tied up, and they're in leopard print because Josie has popularized leopard print. Now it's the thing that's in.

Jojo Siu: 39:20

Right.

Sarah Timm: 39:21

And then Fiona's dress is so cool. It's basically a gown made of Mega Records logos. You could see...

Jojo Siu: 39:30

Ohhh okay, that's what it is.

Sarah Timm: 39:32

It's almost like a...

Jojo Siu: 39:33

Yes,

Sarah Timm: 39:34

...punk Vivienne Westwood kind of thing because they're very loosely stitched together. And they look like patches. So it looks like Vivienne Westwood to me.

Jojo Siu: 39:45

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 39:46

And then she also has a little glitter tattoo right here of the logo. I want glitter tattoos now.

Jojo Siu: 39:54

Oh, man.

Sarah Timm: 39:55

So yeah, that's all I have to say about that. It's great.

Jojo Siu: 40:00

I love it.

Sarah Timm: 40:01

Have I....? I have two more pictures and they're just of extras showing us the monochrome of, this is the color that's in. So this is what everybody's wearing. And this is at the aquarium when everyone is in blue. And then this is from the record store, when everybody's in pink. So yeah. And then I have just a couple more quotes from the NYLON article that I liked. Lisa said, "I found a unique opportunity to raise the bar of what comedic fashion might be conceived as, like comedy equals funny. Costumes should be funny, acting should be funny. But what I realized was creating more drama and fashion reality in the costume sometimes balanced out the comedy in a really good way". So I think that's interesting, because it's not all contemporary movies can support the crazy fashion like this. You know, like this Mega Records dress, something like this would be totally wackadoo in a more straightforward, not satirical or hyper-reality sort of movie.

Jojo Siu: 41:04

Mmhmmm.

Sarah Timm: 41:04

But when everybody is crazy, than the fashion can also be crazy.

Jojo Siu: 41:09

Yeah, it's very true. It's a nice one. There's the capability to be able to do that.

Sarah Timm: 41:16

Oh, yeah. This is another quote that kind of just reinforces that. She said, "sometimes as a costume designer, you're really focusing on character and fashion is too much for a character. But when it came to the heightened world of Josie and the Pussycats, this was one of the rare opportunities where fashion could really be infused in the characters in a profound way". So that's all I have. Oh, I feel like I went long.

Jojo Siu: 41:38

ALL I have.

Sarah Timm: 41:40

I feel like I went long.

Jojo Siu: 41:41

It's okay.

Sarah Timm: 41:41

So that's Josie and the Pussycats. I love it. It's the best movie ever. The end! It's okay. I'm pretty sure mine will be fairly short. It's okay if it isn't. Sort of short, but not really short. Okay, I will get us started on mine. I'm so excited about yours too! I haven't seen this movie forever. I used to watch it all the time.

Jojo Siu: 42:05

That's how I feel! It was funny, because it's been so long since I watched it. And then I rewatched it again. And I was like "still just as hilarious as the first time I watched it". I was still laughing out loud on multiple occasions.

Sarah Timm: 42:17

It's so good. It's one of my faves.

Jojo Siu: 42:19

And let me actually take out my notes first. So my notes are going to be fairly short on this today. Because for some reason, even though this movie is fairly new, I could find no interviews or notes with the costume designer, on the first movie. All of his interviews are relating to the second and third one, because obviously he had more budget. He was really going a very specific direction. And I kind of feel like with this movie, there was a lot more, sort of, I mean, obviously he put thought into the characters, but I think he was still kind of figuring out who they were, because you don't, you don't really get as much of the development. I don't want to say until second and third movies, but he's done so much more in terms of high fashion with the second and third, which we're not even talking about today. So my notes are very minimal.

Sarah Timm: 43:06

They go to more places in the second and third movies, too. It's like they go to Europe and stuff.

Jojo Siu: 43:11

They do. Yeah, it's crazy. So yeah, and he definitely pushed

Sarah Timm: 43:12

It's like a whole thing and heightened the fashion very similar to Josie and the Pussycats I think in the second and third. But let me give you some little facts about the movie. I am covering "Pitch Perfect", of course. So fun. And I love I love mashups. I'm just a big...I love when I hear good mashups. And this was just the perfect movie for that. So that's why we decided to talk about these today. So the director, of course, is Jason Moore, and he doesn't have a huge resume. But he has done...he did "Sister" with Tina Fey and... Oh!

Jojo Siu: 43:48

I just forgot her name. The other one that she's always in movies with

Sarah Timm: 43:51

Amy Poehler.

Jojo Siu: 43:52

Yes. Amy Poehler, thank you. She's always in movies with her! So he directed "Sisters", and then prior to that most of his resume is filled with random episodes directing "One Tree Hill" or "Everwood", so a lot of teen movies and sort of that college or high school to college age group. Yeah. So that might have helped him with this particular like age group that they're focusing on, I guess. But yes, definitely a much more heightened kind of almost over exaggerated world with "Pitch Perfect". And then our costume designer was Salvador Perez, who is actually the president of the Costume Designers Guild.

Sarah Timm: 44:35

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 44:36

Interestingly enough. This doesn't relate to this movie in particular, but he did come in with a good deal of costume manufacturing background and so that's how he ended up on a lot of these shows, because he was working in a lot of fashion workrooms because that's where he started, so he actually, I can't remember where it said he went to fashion school, but it was somewhere in Cali, and then of course, he's done "Never have I ever", he did a lot of the costumes for "the Mindy Project". He's now done all three of the "Pitch Perfect" movies. He's done "Zack and Miri Make a Porno". He also did all of "Veronica Mars", which is great.

Sarah Timm: 45:18

I had no idea.

Jojo Siu: 45:19

I know, right? I was looking at that. And I was like, "oh, Sarah will love this news".

Sarah Timm: 45:23

I'm a Veronica Mars fan, it's true.

Jojo Siu: 45:26

And he's...you can tell that a lot of his work...He's definitely very fashion forward thinking. And because, I mean, I could be making this assumption because he is of, I want to say Spanish background or possibly Hispanic background. I mean, I'm just assuming from his last name, but because of that culture, I think there's a lot of color that he uses in his work, and specifically in this movie. So again, a lot of this I was making speculations, on just because there wasn't a lot of interviews specifically about this movie. But you can see a lot of that kind of cultural color palette that shows up in a lot of, in a lot of the characters.

Sarah Timm: 46:06

Um, he and Mindy Kaling are like...have a real working relationship. I don't know how they met, but he dresses her for everything. He...

Jojo Siu: 46:15

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 46:15

Anytime she's on the carpet, she's wearing a gown designed by him.

Jojo Siu: 46:17

There is an interview about that, because I think they met on "the Mindy Project", and then necause she kind of designs a lot of her own, fashion trends, and she wants it to be very fashion forward, so she gave him a lot of flexibility to be able to do that. And then it turned into designing stuff for her for the red carpet because of that. So yes, they have a very, very close relationship because of that previous work. So it's all about networking.

Sarah Timm: 46:43

It really is.

Jojo Siu: 46:45

I did...I was...again, I didn't find anything specifically about this movie. But there was a quote he said about the second movie that I thought was interesting, because it did reference this first movie. And he...basically it mentioned that the Barden Bellas, who is the acapella group that Anna Kendrick becomes a part of in this first movie, if you haven't seen this movie. He talks about them having kind of very "sweet collegiate styles", which I thought was kind of interesting. The other thing that I wanted to talk about with this movie, and it was interesting that you brought up with Josie and the Pussycats that they use so many brand names without really getting the funding from the companies, is that nowadays with filmmaking, you're not allowed to use those brands, unless they have given you permission, because it's kind of like breaking copyright if you're just representing the artwork, on a film. Especially something that's this big, where you potentially have the money to pay them in order to use their brand. So you can tell that with this particular movie, you don't really see a lot of brands, except for a few t-shirts have some logos that look like they were personally designed by Salvador. Because for example, the Treblemakers who is the the male acapella group that's kind of the counterpart to the Barden, Bellas, they actually, in the first scene where we meet them, at least three of them have a giant logo that just says "Treblemakers" on their t shirt. So clearly, it's something that was created for this movie, as opposed to using another brand. So of course, that might have been just rules that changed over time. I don't know if that was in place, of course, when "Josie" was being made, but nowadays, it's very, very hush hush, if you if you use a brand name and aren't technically allowed to represent them.

Sarah Timm: 48:37

That's so interesting.

Jojo Siu: 48:39

Yeah. So you'll see a lot of really solid tees and, kind of, stripes are fine. You'll see a lot of kind of non-committal patterns and prints. And even...And I'll talk about this in a little bit, but some of the characters have very specific prints. And I don't know, I mean, those things might have been a fashion forward thing. And maybe he had some kind of connection, to be able to get or use that artwork. But most of the characters have pretty nondescript and not very...they don't tell you a lot about the character, if that makes any sense. They're kind of more solid and sort of everyday things that we would buy at a target, you know, without the target brand.

Sarah Timm: 49:21

Right. Off the rack kind of stuff.

Jojo Siu: 49:23

Yes. Okay, so move on to our costumes. The first thing I did want to talk about was his representation of Asian characters in this movie, and I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't super happy with the way that he represented Asians. And maybe that's just because I'm coming from an Asian perspective.

Sarah Timm: 49:44

That's important though!

Jojo Siu: 49:45

It's interesting, because I actually really love how he costumed the Japanese beatboxer character in the group. Oh, yeah. She's got some really fun and kind of unusual and unique sort of fashion forward looks. And because she's one of the main characters, I get it, I get why he put a little bit more, I don't want to say effort into that, but I wanted to start with the roommate, because every time we see her--and again, I had a dilemma about whether or not this was a good or bad thing--but he always has her in these button up shirts. And it's always very, it is a very preppy look. But then all of her friends are also in very similar...they're always in some sort of button-up shirt, or a very JCrew look. And I get that he kind of groups all of them with Kimmy Jin as her posse, but it felt a little offensive that he was dressing every single one of them kind of the same. And it was always that model minority look, right? Where it's kind of, I have to dress as if I'm making straight A's and you know, completely--I mean, yes, that is true of some of us--but it felt a little bit like it was too stereotyped.

Sarah Timm: 51:01

Right.

Jojo Siu: 51:02

And this movie has a lot of stereotypes that they make fun of. So you know, maybe it was appropriate at this time. But I guess now with everything happening in culture, it just felt very outdated. And I would, I don't know that I appreciated it that much. Also, the fact that he puts all of them in a lot of very bland, khakis, whites, and really pale blues. I mean, you can see her friend here is wearing an olive color, I guess. But for the most part, every other look that they have is either really, really disappearing khaki or white, or really, really disappearing gray, which I will show you in the next shot. Yeah, not a lot of personality to be had in these costumes. Right. So this is a very, very brief scene of them. But it's

Sarah Timm: 51:47

Very homogenous, like they're all the same her and her four friends. And I was a little confused, because they're supposed to be playing a video game. But then two of them are just wearing what looks like regular sunglasses. And then on their phones instead of an actual game player. And she's the only one with...also sunglasses, but slightly person. different...? Like, nothing is connected. So as someone who's

Jojo Siu: 52:06

Right, exactly. So anyways, that was my one beef married to a gamer, this doesn't look correct all. But again, not even the point that I'm trying to make. The fact that they're all a lead...literally in the same color and almost essentially the same exact silhouette. And Kimmy Jean is in the middle. But again, she's got a button-up kind of more formal shirt. So it just felt a little weird to me that she's this fres men who's come to college and, Yes, she's got her Korean co munity, but it felt weird tha he almost dressed them as i they were, the elite Asian gr up. with this. With this beginning part.

Sarah Timm: 52:54

That's a very legitimate beef.

Jojo Siu: 52:56

So yes. Okay, moving on. So...oh, the other look that I was not a huge fan of, and I love these colors on Rebel Wilson and I...tt's just a funny, you know, she's a funny character. She's got a lot of, kind of, you're not sure if she puts things together, right. Because she makes this whole funny joke about her hairstyle to you, which is also very strange to me in the beginning. But then she jokes about how it's this Orthodox Jew hairstyle.

Sarah Timm: 53:24

Oh, yeah.

Jojo Siu: 53:25

Anyways, that whole thing I was kind of like, "Oh, right. That's, that's where that comes from". So that clearly is part of that joke. But my big issue with this outfit is that she's on a college campus. It's kind of their first day and they're visiting the campus fair. But this is such a weird outfit for me, for her to be walking around in. She's in these high heels. And also when she stands up, you can't really see it in this picture, but that shirt actually is not very flattering on her. And I don't know if that's just, you know...because I get it, as a person who is much smaller, I'm sometimes not used to thinking about a bigger body size, because that's just not what I'm used to dressing. It's easiest to dress myself, if I see someone else who's my size. So I was I was trying to figure out if it was just, "Did he purposely try to dress her not in a size that fit her, or that was flattering? Or was this just because he didn't understand how to dress that body size or body type?

Sarah Timm: 54:24

I think it's probably the second one. I have not heard specifically about Rebel Wilson. But I know that on this show "Shrill", which stars Amy Bryant, they had to make a lot of her wardrobe especially in the first season because plus size clothes are so limited. They really wanted her to be trendy and cute and their selection was just really bad. So I think a lot of costume designers do not know what to do with bigger bodies.

Jojo Siu: 54:51

It's true. Very true.

Sarah Timm: 54:52

Unfortunately.

Jojo Siu: 54:54

Yeah. And you can kind of see that through a lot of her looks. So it was really unfortunate. Granted, this is, you know, one of her bigger breakout films in the beginning of her career, I think, before she got really big with a lot of other stuff. But I kind of just felt like this was a really unfortunate sort of first impression. And also this black pencil skirt doesn't do her any favors.

Sarah Timm: 55:15

It looks casual

Jojo Siu: 55:16

Especially with this...right. Especially with this top, it was just...a lot of it, I was kind of like, "this was kind of a big miss". I feel like we could have really told the audience a lot more about who she was...

Sarah Timm: 55:28

Right, right.

Jojo Siu: 55:29

...In this first moment. Because I mean, she does tell us in what she says in the dialogue in this first scene, but it kind of feels like her outfit doesn't match her dialogue and the way she would have dressed.

Sarah Timm: 55:40

I agree. Yeah, yeah.

Jojo Siu: 55:42

Yeah, cuz she's from Tanzania. And she's kind of this crazy, kooky personality. And she knows that about herself. So why would you dress like this?

Sarah Timm: 55:50

Right.

Jojo Siu: 55:51

If you're so comfortable with your body, you know, well, so she says, right? So yeah, I don't know, I guess this was just one of the...I don't think as successful looks in the movie.

Sarah Timm: 56:02

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 56:04

Okay, but moving on. So I did want to go kind of by character, as opposed to, you know, in order through the movie, just because it's a little easier to kind of track the characters in this. I put this photo up because speaking of talking about tattoos for Josie and the Pussycats. You don't really ever see this tattoo in any other scene except for this. But this is when she first comes to campus. And then, this is kind of when they find her and discover that she can sing, right? So they're trying to recruit her for their acapella group. But I just thought this was interesting that she's got, you know, she kind of has this tough exterior that she keeps giving off. And one of the successful things that I think Salvador did very well is that he did place her in very, very specific monochrome colors for most of the movie. So she doesn't really adopt too much color, or it's not as visible. It's mostly grays and kind of blacks, 'cause she's supposed to be sort of this goth personality. And I just love that she's got this kind of tattoo where it's sort of hidden, but it's also still very feminine. Again, kind of indicating that she's sort of put up this facade that she's this tough character, even though they're flowers on her tattoo. So yeah, I just I put that in there just to kind of go along with again, her first look, which is this look here and again, it's that kind of...It's like a draped sweater vest almost. And she's got black skinny jeans and black combat boots. And the only color she's wearing is this really deep, dark red, which also comes back later on. And also, I mean, even with the makeup, they've been very clear about making her look kind of alternative and goth.

Sarah Timm: 57:52

I wouldn't say goth. I would just say she's...she looks like she's trying not to fit in. You know? She's trying to be...

Jojo Siu: 57:58

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 57:58

Different and alternative. Adn her whole vibe is that she doesn't want to be there, right? So she's communicating that.

Jojo Siu: 58:07

Right. Or not communicating, I should say.

Sarah Timm: 58:10

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 58:12

Yes, she's on her headphones quite a lot.

Sarah Timm: 58:14

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 58:16

So then, as we go through the movie, and again, just to kind of show the progression of how Salvador starts introducing colors, and it's kind of not shown well in this picture, but the stripe is actually Maroon. So she actually has a maroon and mustard color, that she starts introducing as she's starting to get to know her Treblemaker counterpart, Skylar Astin. So Becca is her name and then Jesse is his name. But of course they are both on opposite acapella groups. So he's in the boys group. She's in the girls group, but they become friends, just because he's kind of the first weirdo that she sort of greets in the taxi of the very beginning. So this image, I just wanted to kind of showcase that even though she's wearing a lot of the same colors, and it's still a very deep and kind of dark color. That she's starting to introduce colors as she's starting to open up a little bit more. And then at the same time, I also wanted to showcase that one thing Salvador did with Skylar's character is that he is in mostly blues, other than when he's singing with the Treblemakers, which the Treblemakers--their color is kind of the maroon, sort of maroon red.

Sarah Timm: 59:29

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 59:29

Or like a deep red. So the only time he's ever in that, is when he's singing with them. But otherwise, his color palette throughout the entire movie is a lot of different varying shades of navy blue and kind of a deep slate blue. And he's always wearing some kind of either blue dark blue jeans or black jeans. So his consistent character stays pretty much the same throughout. AH! Did not mean to zoom in on that. Okay, so then furthermore, we keep progressing she goes into yet another Maroon. And this is when she finally decides to watch "Breakfast at Tiffany's" during spring break

Sarah Timm: 1:00:10

Breakfast Club, right?

Jojo Siu: 1:00:12

I mean sorry Breakfast Club. Not Breakfast at Tiffany's. Yes, Breakfast Club. And I thought this was interesting, because it's still in her color palette, but we're starting to see some of that black and gray kind of disappear. She's wearing a lot more color and only the color. And again, it's kind of the...it's sort of the opposite, as she's going more red, Skylar or Jesse kind of goes more blue. And then at the very end when they perform, the Barden...the Barden Bellas are all in a kind of a deep, almost navy blue. And then all the Treblemakers are in that bright or sorry, that deep red, right. So it's kind of an interesting color crossover throughout the movie, which I don't know if that was intentional or not, but it was just something I noticed. And then this is her final outfit when she is...when they finally...the acapellas get kicked out of regionals. But then, because they find out one of the performers had a high schooler performing, so then they're back in for finals. So this is after she's been kicked out. And she's kind of learning her life lessons of how to make friends and how to keep them. But this is kind of where you're starting to see a little bit more of the color. She's not really wearing just gray anymore. She's starting to introduce a little bit of green in her olive jacket. And then she's still got that red top, while still keeping the same kind of black skinny jeans and combat boots. Yeah. And interestingly enough, you can't see it in this picture, but the boots actually have a flip over that's red on the inside.

Sarah Timm: 1:01:52

Oh cute!

Jojo Siu: 1:01:52

So again, it was kind of a nice little tie-in of color, just introducing more color to her palette. Okay, so...I totally lied. He's totally not in blue all the time. This is when it's towards the end as well for him. And I did want to bring this up because he starts going more towards brown and going a little closer to the red color that he ends up in with the Treblemakers. But I also just chose this because Skyler Astin just looks really good in this jacket.

Sarah Timm: 1:02:20

He's pretty handsome.

Jojo Siu: 1:02:22

Yes, very handsome. And I think Salvador did a really good job of nicely layering all the things while still giving him a very kind of macho look.

Sarah Timm: 1:02:30

Yeah, totally.

Jojo Siu: 1:02:32

That's all I had to say about that. And then I wanted to show some quick images of Benji, because he's just so nerdy. And I didn't pull too many. I got rid of a lot of looks. But I did love this T-shirt that is actually a painted on tie. So it's literally just a T-shirt that he clearly put a tie onto. And that just says so much about his character because he really is the classic nerd. So the fact that he doesn't even wear a button up shirt, he's just paints on a tie instead for his audition. So this is his audition shirt. And then, he's actually in quite a lot of other stripes as well. I wanted to post this first image because this is one of the examples where you do see more of that specific graphic. And again, because he's our leading man, of course, this would make sense that he would have the one graphic on his T-shirt, but everyone else is kind of in these nondescript stripes. You can't see it in this picture. But one big difference that Salvador did to change the silhouette between the two guys is that Benji wears his shirt way tucked into his very high-waisted pants. Whereas all the other guys are clearly just you know, wearing their T-shirts like a normal guy would wear just out, and you know, don't bother tucking it in. But yes, it's just so cute. Benji is one of my favorite characters.

Sarah Timm: 1:03:53

Benji's adorable.

Jojo Siu: 1:03:56

Okay, I wanted to pull this up because again, just some of other examples of kind of the more nondescript non-brand ways of Salvador being able to kind of color code the different characters. This is our audition character. He's kind of the one that's announcing the auditions. And again, very, very nondescript, very vague. This looks like it could have been bought from Target. But he's also kind of the only one in this sort of purple at the very beginning. So just thought that was interesting.

Sarah Timm: 1:04:24

That's McLovin. Yes.

Jojo Siu: 1:04:28

Yet another big picture.

Sarah Timm: 1:04:30

Oh my god. Is that an otter?

Jojo Siu: 1:04:32

He's got an otter on his sweater!

Sarah Timm: 1:04:34

So cute.

Jojo Siu: 1:04:37

But yes, I just so again, I think...it almost feels kind of like Salvador had the most fun with Benji's character, just because he's...there's so many ways to just be creative and make him look nerdy. So I just really loved this. This is when he's cheering them, cheering the guys for regionals, because he hasn't gotten in, but he still wants to support them. You know, because he's their biggest fan so...

Sarah Timm: 1:05:01

Oh Benji!

Jojo Siu: 1:05:02

So cute.

Sarah Timm: 1:05:03

He wears a lot more color too.

Jojo Siu: 1:05:04

He's also got the shirt underneath so it's kind of

Sarah Timm: 1:05:06

Oh, yeah. preppy but also nerdy because you're kind of like, "why is he wearing a sweater with an otter n it?" So then moving on to th other Asian character that he ressed, and she is probably o e of my favorite characters that he dressed in this mo

Jojo Siu: 1:05:20

They look very young. It's a very babydoll kind of ie just because she's got su h crazy stuff. It feels ver Emilio Pucci, is kind of what i reminds me of. It's that v ry, very bright colors and a lo of really fun prints. But also, you can tell he's taken a lot o Japanese sensibility and m king her look very, very much l ke the kind of...I forget what silhouette, but I feel like he uses a lot of that little girl the name of the the type of dress is...but I know there' Mori girl, which is basically they dress like woodland girl . aspect in her costumes. She's got, you know, the giant bows and the headbands. And she's always fixing her perfect bangs. And she has pigtails a lot of times as well. So a lot of her looks seem very inspired by kind of, I want to say '70s, maybe a little '60s too, but again, that Emilio Pucci look of the very loud prints, mixed with the kind of, almost Mary Quant, as well, the very '70s turtlenecks and stuff.

Sarah Timm: 1:06:31

Yeah, and the long straight hair makes me think like '60s, '70s too.

Jojo Siu: 1:06:36

Yes, very much so. And then some of her other looks. So this is when she finds out that they got back into finals. I just think this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Like she's wearing a striped...

Sarah Timm: 1:06:49

Is that a vest?

Jojo Siu: 1:06:50

It is. So it looks like...I can't really tell because this is, again, such a fast shot and she never wears it again. Yeah, but it almost looks like it's denim on the side. And then it's got these kind of crazy yarn. It's got a crazy yarn trim. And then I got a hopefully...Yes, a kind of interesting shot of the back. Wow. So again, it looks very 70s in terms of the vest silhouette.

Sarah Timm: 1:07:15

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:07:15

But it's just...it's such an interesting, weird pairing of these two things. So I just thought that was really interesting. So nothing much to say about it. Just...

Sarah Timm: 1:07:25

Fun texture.

Jojo Siu: 1:07:26

It's an interesting, kind of funky look. And then again, another look of hers, she's got a lot of the florals. This looks a little more normal for her. But even then you've got the really fun colors, and she's probably a little bit more kind of bright in terms of her stripes, and then kind of pairing it with mismatched pattern and prints. So I thought that was interesting. So this is right before she falls into the throw up.

Sarah Timm: 1:07:51

Oh god. Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:07:53

Yeah. It's real bad.

Sarah Timm: 1:07:54

Ohhh.

Jojo Siu: 1:07:56

So going back a little bit, this is kind of a back shot of Anna Kendrick's first look, so you can kind of see that it's almost like belted in with that kind of draped vest that she's got. But then in comparison to our Brittany Snow character, who's in this really bright blue. So speaking of blue going really well with that kind of orange hair, I thought they did a really nice job of pairing that as well. And she's got a slightly more unusual dress shape. In comparison to everyone else. It looks a little bit more like this was very particular...either it was made for her or he shopped at a high end boutique where this isn't like on the streets.

Sarah Timm: 1:08:34

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:08:34

Because even the pleating that's up on the top of her yoke, which is sort of that top portion of the dress, is very specific. And then she never really...she does wear this color a few times in the movie, but I love that her first introduction to Anna Kendrick's character Becca is her in this kind of Barbie pink. Because that's very much her character in the beginning, I mean, but like uptight Barbie, if that makes any sense?

Sarah Timm: 1:09:03

Yes, perfect. Almost pageant-y

Jojo Siu: 1:09:05

Yes, and everything is very in place. And it's kind of the brightest thing that you see on screen. So I thought that was a really interesting way of kind of focusing in on her character. And also kind of talking about how uptight she is, because everything has its place and it's still a very formal kind of look.

Sarah Timm: 1:09:26

Fussy.

Jojo Siu: 1:09:28

Yes.

Sarah Timm: 1:09:28

Peter Pan collars always say fussy to me.

Jojo Siu: 1:09:32

And then the last...well, I don't know if these are the last ones, but I did want to pull a couple of shots of each of the other groups just to kind of show how Salvador has sort of separated all of them.

Sarah Timm: 1:09:42

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:09:42

So this is the the BU harmonics. So they only sing Madonna songs, which it's interesting to me because they're all in such a preppy look but in such vibrant colors.

Sarah Timm: 1:09:56

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:09:56

Which I think is a great look for an acapella group, but it seems weird that they're the group that sings Madonna songs, because...

Sarah Timm: 1:10:03

Yeah Madonna's not preppy.

Jojo Siu: 1:10:04

This does not scream Madonna to me at all. And so I wonder what his thought process was for this, I guess I'm just curious. Yeah, I wonder. And then moving on. So these are the "High Notes". And very clearly, I feel like this was really successful. I think he definitely gives off that...I mean, not to stereotype but this particular hoodie...

Sarah Timm: 1:10:29

Stoner hoodie.

Jojo Siu: 1:10:29

It just screams stoner and even her vest here, it's very kind of hippie '70s.

Sarah Timm: 1:10:36

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:10:37

It makes me think a little Woodstock, even the way that he's got like the striped V-neck and the kid with the afro and the tye-dye. So a lot of that...I think he very meticulously picked out these these patterns and shirts and pieces very well. So this I think was definitely successful. Then the Treblemakers....

Sarah Timm: 1:10:59

Tells us who they are

Jojo Siu: 1:11:01

Yeah, exactly. And then the Treblemakers, you can see here it's a lot of vibrant colors, but really, really a lot of stripes. A ton of plaids.

Sarah Timm: 1:11:12

Yes.

Jojo Siu: 1:11:12

He uses that over and over again for the Treblemakers. And they're always in some kind of...or there's some inclusion of either mustard yellow or that kind of deep red, maroon red.

Sarah Timm: 1:11:25

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:11:25

So it's very Gryffindor colors.

Sarah Timm: 1:11:27

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:11:28

And they...you know, the...like I said, the kind of rust or deep red is something that is their common color throughout all of their performances. So in their...in regionals, as well as finals, and I'll go over that in a second, they're always wearing some sort of outerwear that's in the maroon color. But I thought this was really...it was a really nice contrast to show you in comparison to the vibrant colors of the BU harmonics, they've got a lot more pattern. And then this is the the image that I was talking about where they clearly made up this graphic, which it says Treblemakers when I think there's only two of them that have some kind of other graphic on their T-shirt. So for whatever reason they're wearing something else, but most of them look like...besides Bumper, who's the kind of lead...

Sarah Timm: 1:12:16

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:12:16

Acapella leader.

Sarah Timm: 1:12:17

I forgot his name was Bumper.

Jojo Siu: 1:12:18

But everyone else...yeah, but everyone else is wearing that Treblemaker logo. Okay, so I wanted to pull a couple images of the Barden Bellas in their performances versus the Treblemakers and their performances, just to kind of show you some of that contrast. And again, to kind of indicate that difference of color between the blue versus the reds that the Treblemakers are associated with. And this was...this is kind of an old picture of the Barden Bellas. And it's so interesting to me, because this...these are...their shirts are worn so much lower. It's clearly very much about the sex appeal of these women. Even though they also do sing well. But there's there's definitely a standard of what they look like and what they're selling, if that makes any sense. Versus when we see the newer Barden Bellas, I mean, they still have that kind of low, low shirt. But you can see on each of them, it kind of hits at different levels. Yeah, and not all of them have it opened all the way down. This shot happens to show a lot of them down. But even when we first see Anna Kendrick putting on this uniform, her shirt is actually a lot more closed. So I thought that was kind of interesting that obviously, we're representing very different body shapes as well. It's not so much about selling what the first version of the Barden Bellas was selling.

Sarah Timm: 1:13:45

Well and it's almost...

Jojo Siu: 1:13:45

And it's clearly not about that.

Sarah Timm: 1:13:47

Yeah, it's almost like they dropped their standards, you know, because...

Jojo Siu: 1:13:51

Right.

Sarah Timm: 1:13:51

They couldn't really recruit the way they usually did. So it's...you know, how...the Rockettes, you have to be a certain height and everybody's the exact same body type. It's almost like they were like that, but now they can't be choosy. So they just take whoever they can get. So now it...it's actually more diverse.

Jojo Siu: 1:14:08

Agreed. And it's it's interesting too 'cause there was an interview with Anna Kendrick talking about how the producers kept saying, "Oh, we need we need your costumes to be tighter and sexier and fit, you know, fit better" and she was kind of like, "okay, but people that are coming to see this movie are not looking for that. They're here to see women who are strong and are different and are representing different body types and are not just there to be sexy. They're strong because they sing well and they have talent and they can do all these other things. And it's not about how they look, you know, that kind of thing". So I just thought that was really interesting that she said that and...and awesome that she fought for that. But it made me...it did make me wonder, you know, who came up with that uniform, or who asked for that shirt to be buttoned...unbuttoned so low, that kind of thing. So how much of that was Salvador's choice versus the producers pushing for that?

Sarah Timm: 1:15:10

It's interesting. 'Cause I would say that the main audience for these movies is probably women, young women. So...

Jojo Siu: 1:15:16

Yeah,

Sarah Timm: 1:15:16

Asking for the clothes to be tighter, especially if it's coming from a male perspective, that's making it for the male gaze, but you need to...it's like they didn't know who their audience actually was. Because that's not what the female gaze wants, you know...

Jojo Siu: 1:15:31

Right

Sarah Timm: 1:15:32

Usually. It's not about sexy. It's about seeing a wide representation of different types of women being funny and talented and stuff.

Jojo Siu: 1:15:42

And it's funny, too, because in the movie itself, I mean, the people that are announcing, I mean, that are kind of overseeing all these regionals--the announcers--There's so many comments between the two of them about how the male announcer is being totally misogynist. And he's making all these stupid comments that are clearly sexist, or whatever. So they do poke fun at it, which I think is so funny, because in most cases, I feel like a lot of people end up just ignoring that. Really, it's a very satirical comment on what's actually happening, potentially, I mean, behind the scenes, but also, you know, in real life. So, yeah, I just thought it was funny. There's a lot of comments on it. And it's interesting hearing the behind-the-scenes opinions about it, and kind of seeing what sort of eventually happened in their costumes.

Sarah Timm: 1:16:34

And this one was directed by a man but it was written by Kay Cannon, I believe, who was a writer for "3 Rock" and then produced y Elizabeth Banks, who I thi k directed the sequels.

Jojo Siu: 1:16:44

Yes.

Sarah Timm: 1:16:45

So it's interesting that this one has a man at the helm, but the other ones do not.

Jojo Siu: 1:16:50

Right. Right. And you know, you can kind of see some of the shift in the second and third one too, once Elizabeth took over. But Elizabeth does play the Female Announcer who keeps calling out the male announcer for all of his misogyny. So, interestingly enough.

Sarah Timm: 1:17:06

Very interesting.

Jojo Siu: 1:17:08

Okay, moving on. So this is the the Treblemakers at regionals. So again, this is not right at the final, so you can see he started off with kind of a more casual look for them, but they still have the Treblemaker logo on all of these jackets. So I can only imagine all the copies that he had to make of this...it looks like it was an embroidered patch that they probably made up. But I love that they all kind of have, you know, our two main leads that kind of lead the group have the same undershirt in the same color. But then everyone else has that same kind of jacket, and sort of silhouette too, all of them have that kind of either v-neck or crewneck. There's one guy who has the Polo but... generally speaking, he's kind of created a uniform look for all of them. And then I love that this girl in the front just has like....

Sarah Timm: 1:18:01

That's WILD.

Jojo Siu: 1:18:02

She's like a high--hot fan for them.

Sarah Timm: 1:18:06

She's in it.

Jojo Siu: 1:18:06

It's just funny.

Sarah Timm: 1:18:07

She's here to support.

Jojo Siu: 1:18:09

Yes. So we start off with Bumper leading them into "Don't stop the music". That's their first number in there kind of local competition, before they go into the regionals and finals. But you can see here, this is the jacket standard that they use for their bigger competitions. Oh, and sorry, this was regionals from the year before. So they only really wear this, you know, more tailored blazer in the same color of maroon for the final performances. And then you can kind of see it's almost like he's created this hierarchy of what is deemed each level, you know, what kind of uniform do you wear for each level. So this is the final level. And then the hoodie is sort of the regional level. And then I wanted to also show...again, not a huge difference, but this is the following...this is the final scene where Skylar Astin and Benji are in their final blazers. So it's the same blazer as we see in the first one, but we're a little bit more done up here. I think in the previous one, Bumper's wearing more of a casual shirt underneath, whereas here they're really wearing a button up shirt and the tie. It also has to do with the songs they chose. Because...

Sarah Timm: 1:19:27

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:19:27

It's interesting because Benji's in it now, they choose, you know, "I've Got The Magic In Me" because he's supposed to be a closet magician, but not really closet. So it's a very appropriate kind of end song, once they include him.

Sarah Timm: 1:19:42

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:19:43

But I just thought it was kind of interesting to see that progression of the type of clothing they wear. And then going back...Okay, so our two announcers Elizabeth Banks, and I can't remember his name.

Sarah Timm: 1:19:56

He's great. Yeah I don't remember his name either. He's in a lot of stuff. He is!

Jojo Siu: 1:20:00

I just...can never remember his name. But this is their finals outfits, which I think is just so funny, because it's so incredibly formal. It's almost like a black tie event.

Sarah Timm: 1:20:11

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:20:12

Even though it's a singing acapella competition.

Sarah Timm: 1:20:15

And they're not on c mera either. They're...It's j st announcing so...

Jojo Siu: 1:20:20

Right.

Sarah Timm: 1:20:21

Who's gonna see them?

Jojo Siu: 1:20:21

Right! Exactly like no one will ever see them. All they hear is their voices.

Sarah Timm: 1:20:26

Maybe they're taking a good pic.

Jojo Siu: 1:20:29

Could be, could be, but it's funny, because they're also not even the people that are announcing the actual competition, because there's a guy on set, who's like the MC. So he's on stage announcing all the groups. So they're literally behind the scene.

Sarah Timm: 1:20:44

Commentators.

Jojo Siu: 1:20:45

Right, exactly. So it's almost like they're treating this like a spectator sport, which is funny, but they're in black, and white tie.

Sarah Timm: 1:20:54

Gotta keep it formal.

Jojo Siu: 1:20:56

Yeah. So this is them getting ready, and warming their voices up as if they're part of this, even though they're not actually singing. So I just thought this was a really great shot. And I just wanted to include it because it was very fun. And then the final last two looks is the Barden Bellas, and you can see, they've obviously changed out their kind of airplane/flight attendant, uniform from before, and they're still wearing all the same colors. But it's almost like he's allowed them to include other pieces, in the same color palette, but now he's given them each their own personality.

Sarah Timm: 1:21:32

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:21:33

So, you know, for our, Japanese character, Lilly, she's got kind of more like leggings and sort of...because she's our beatboxer, so it looks like he kind of dressed her more streetwear. We've got Rebel Wilson in sort of more like exercise gear, which again, I still don't think he was very successful addressing her body type, which is very unfortunate. And she's also the only one kind of in more of a black.

Sarah Timm: 1:21:59

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:22:02

So yes, anyways. I will not go on and on about how I don't think Rebel Wilson's costumes were....

Sarah Timm: 1:22:08

They don't do her justice...

Jojo Siu: 1:22:09

well done here.

Sarah Timm: 1:22:09

She's great. She's deserves better.

Jojo Siu: 1:22:11

Yeah. Yes, anyway, so then we see, kind of, I can never remember her name either, but our other lead lady

Sarah Timm: 1:22:21

The actresses' name is Anna Camp. I don't know what her character's name is. That's... Her name's...

Jojo Siu: 1:22:24

Anna Camp, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, Aubrey...that's her name. But she's also got a lot more saturate colors normally, so it's interesting here that she's got kind of the darker blue and then she's gone back to a pretty neutral black cami.

Sarah Timm: 1:22:38

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:22:40

And then the big thing here is with Anna Kendrick--Becca's character goes into that more vibrant blue that we see a lot of on Jesse's character. So Skylar Astin's--the male character--he wears a lot of this kind of color. So I love that that last scene, she's actually kind of gone back into his color. Especially when she's also singing the finale song from "Breakfast Club".

Sarah Timm: 1:23:04

It's like her olive branch to him, right? Because they're mad thought or whatever. And it's...

Jojo Siu: 1:23:09

Yes, exactly.

Sarah Timm: 1:23:10

She's like, "hey, I'm actually...here I am. Let's date".

Jojo Siu: 1:23:14

Yeah, so I love that Salvador put her back in the color that he's kind of been seen in throughout the entire movie. And that's really all I had to say about that. This is just another shot of her in the blue.

Sarah Timm: 1:23:27

I like those pants with the buttons. They're cute.

Jojo Siu: 1:23:29

I do and she actually has, there's another scene at the very beginning where they have their initiation party, and she's wearing a military coat that's kind of got those same sort of double rows of buttons. So again, I don't know if he did that on purpose, but I just thought that was kind of an interesting little nod.

Sarah Timm: 1:23:46

Cute little motif.

Jojo Siu: 1:23:48

Yeah, just a repeated motif. And it's only really repeated there, in addition to here. So, I think Becca's costumes were probably the most successful overall and oh, and Lilly, the little Japanese girl. I think those two are probably my favorite in this movie.

Sarah Timm: 1:24:04

Agreed.

Jojo Siu: 1:24:05

Everyone else...it's interesting because this movie blew up so much and the costumes that he's got in Pitch Perfect 2 and 3 are so...it's 10 steps above this.

Sarah Timm: 1:24:16

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:24:16

'Cause he probably had more budget to do stuff with it. Clearly with this, it looks like he tried to be as creative as possible, in terms of the color palette, but because he couldn't really scream too many brands, he had to be very thrifty with what he put on people, while still trying to keep it vague enough not to scream a brand.

Sarah Timm: 1:24:39

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:24:40

So in that sense, I can see the challenge of that. I think that was still done very well. You can still kind of figure out which character is who. But yes, I think Rebel Wilson, he could have done a lot more with her. And I think he did end up adjusting things in second and third movie, but... Yeah. For this movie, unfortunately, it felt a little bit like this was sort of a guessing game with her.

Sarah Timm: 1:25:03

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:25:03

A little bit more.

Sarah Timm: 1:25:04

It was just like, "This will work, I guess".

Jojo Siu: 1:25:07

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Timm: 1:25:08

"Good enough!" Which is sad.

Jojo Siu: 1:25:09

Exactly.

Sarah Timm: 1:25:10

She deserves better than that.

Jojo Siu: 1:25:12

So true. And I can't remember...there was another movie I was watching. It's the one with her and Anne Hathaway. And it's based on...do you know what I'm talking about?

Sarah Timm: 1:25:21

Do I know what you're talking about. It's...what is it based on?

Jojo Siu: 1:25:25

"The hustler" I think that's what it's called. Or "The Hustle"?

Sarah Timm: 1:25:29

Are they...? I have not seen this, but I think I know what you're talking about.

Jojo Siu: 1:25:33

Yes. But her costumes in that movie are phenomenal. That is another one we have to talk about at some point.

Sarah Timm: 1:25:41

Good.

Jojo Siu: 1:25:41

But after seeing her in that, it's kind of...coming back to this and being like, "Oooh, she really could have...he really could have fit her better". But yes, so anyways, that is my coverage of "Pitch Perfect".

Sarah Timm: 1:25:54

Yay! Great job!

Jojo Siu: 1:25:55

Hopefully you all enjoyed that. It was a lot of fun colors. And it was...of course it's you know, it is mostly about the music. So I did love the music. But I do love that there were still very clear costume choices that Salvador made.

Sarah Timm: 1:26:10

It's an interesting challenge to have group...different groups, you know, all the different acapella groups and "how am I going to visually make them distinct from each other?"

Jojo Siu: 1:26:20

Yes. And it's, you know, I think that's one of the reasons I put those group pictures in the front. You don't really see that clear distinction as much in the rest of the movie, unfortunately, because most of the other scenes where you see all the groups together are like the riff off, which it's so dark that, you know, I think he had to be very specific about blending them together. And the only reason you realize they were groups were because they were like standing and singing together. So yes, that first shot I think was really, really great in showing us how these groups were differentiated and what makes them who they are.

Sarah Timm: 1:26:55

Yeah.

Jojo Siu: 1:26:55

And then of course, we see more of that differentiation in the sequels.

Sarah Timm: 1:26:59

Totally. Great job.

Jojo Siu: 1:27:02

Thank you. You too! These were fun movies to rewatch.

Sarah Timm: 1:27:06

Yeah, clearly, we had a great time with these. What a joy.

Jojo Siu: 1:27:10

Yes, so true. Well, thanks, Sarah.

Sarah Timm: 1:27:14

I'm excited. Me too. This was a fun one. And we don't know what our next theme is. But we'll figure it out. And I'm sure it'll be equally fun!

Jojo Siu: 1:27:24

Yes. So please remember to rate us. We are still taking. We're still taking people's ratings, and I believe we are still putting $1 towards...what's it called?

Sarah Timm: 1:27:34

Dress for success.

Jojo Siu: 1:27:35

Yes, Dress for success. My brain is starting to like close/shut down now.

Sarah Timm: 1:27:39

Yeah. Yeah, please do. That's the single best thing you can do for the show, if you like our show, is rate and review. That's, for any podcast, if you like it and you want to support it, that's how you can do so. So please do that.

Jojo Siu: 1:27:55

Yeah.

Sarah Timm: 1:27:56

Helps us get to more people.

Jojo Siu: 1:27:58

Yes, definitely. Yeah. And we've definitely been having a slow and steady stream of followers that have added us, so, it's really exciting.

Sarah Timm: 1:28:07

Yeah. We're glad that people are enjoying it, because we enjoy making it so that's...

Jojo Siu: 1:28:13

Absolutely.

Sarah Timm: 1:28:14

That's what matters.

Jojo Siu: 1:28:15

Well, we're looking forward to sharing more movies with you guys in the next episode. So we'll see you on the next one.

Sarah Timm: 1:28:22

See you then. Bye!

Jojo Siu: 1:28:24

Bye! Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion, you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah Timm: 1:28:37

Our theme music is by Jessie Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcast.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 16: The Fall with Kelly Cercone

Please consult these Instagram slideshows for accompanying images: The Fall Part 1 The Fall Part 2

Sarah Timm & Jojo Siu Welcome to the costume plot.

Jojo Siu   I'm Jojo Siu

Sarah Timm   and I'm Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo Siu We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo Siu Hello, and welcome to the Costume Plot again.

Sarah Timm Welcome back. What an exciting episode. Let's dive right in. We have a very exciting guest with us today. She's a friend of mine from FIDM but you may know her from "Avengers Endgame", ever heard of it? Thor Ragnarok. American Horror Story. These are just some of her credits. She's a brilliant costume maker and many other things. You may know her from her Instagram "Anachronism in Action:, or as the winner of the "Her Universe fashion show". It's Kelly Cercone!

Jojo Siu Welcome, Kelly.

Kelly Cercone   Happy to be here.

Sarah Timm   Thank you so much for joining us. We are stoked to talk to you. What movie have you brought us and our listeners today?

Kelly Cercone   I am super excited to be talking about "the Fall", which is probably my favorite movie of all time. And when you guys mentioned it during the "Mirror, Mirror" episode I was...I just got really excited and I messaged you pretty much a day later.

Sarah Timm   And I was really excited because you are...I just want to say you're a great get for a podcast guest about a podcast about costuming because

Jojo Siu   Absolutely!

Sarah Timm   You're legit and amazing. But also I was saying this you off mic but everything that I know about the fall for the most part I know because of Kelly's posts and her cosplay of it. And I've just been an admirer of the costumes from afar, so I'm excited to deep dive into them today.

Jojo Siu   Absolutely. I'm so glad we're covering this  in a different way. Even if we don't cover another episode normally.

Kelly Cercone   This movie has so many costumes in it. It would...it....There's a lot of ground to cover.

Jojo Siu   Absolutely. Perfect for one episode.

Sarah Timm   Totally. Yeah, we can really take our time. This is exciting.

Jojo Siu All right. So I already gave you power to share. So whenever you are ready, Kelly.

Kelly Cercone   All right. Okay, so...should I...I'll just start by talking about the movie. A little bit?

Sarah Timm   Yeah, tell us whatever you feel like we need to know before we get into the clothes.

Kelly Cercone "The Fall: was directed by Tarsem Singh and costume designed by Eiko Ishioka, which...this was the second movie that they collaborated on. The first being "The Cell" and then "The Fall", "The Immortals" and last "Mirror, Mirror" for which Eiko won her Oscar. The movie was loosely based off of a 1981 film called "Yo, Ho, Ho" which was a Bulgarian language film. It was released in 2006 at the Toronto Film Festival and theatrically released in 2008. And it had pretty mixed reviews when it came out. I guess a lot of people went to go watch it thinking it would be like a comedy and then were very surprised when it was not.

Sarah Timm Was it marketed more as a comedy? Because sometimes that's all in the marketing, you know?

Kelly Cercone   I mean, I think people just thought it was gonna be like, oh, a fantasy adventure, you know, they weren't expecting it to be as sad as it is. The movie was largely funded by Tarsem himself. Because a lot of people were very confused when he tried to explain that he wanted to make a movie that was partially written by a four-year-old. And one of the things that he wanted to do, because he did "The Cell" because there was so much CGI in it, he really wanted to try and do the opposite of that. So all of the locations in the film, they're actually on location. And they filmed in 20 different countries over the course of four years. And he said of working with Eiko, "we heard Eiko was really difficult to get, but we fell down on our knees. It turned out to not be so hard. She worked on every one of my films." Oh, and "I had enough of that in my first film. As much as I enjoyed it. I decided in this one, the art direction was going to be in the landscape and in the costume design and nothing else." And I feel like you really see that in "The Cell" because it really is the setting...the places that he found. And then the costumes. There's not a lot of other bells and whistles until it comes to the storytelling. And this movie really is a love letter to storytelling. Because it wasn't very popular when it came out. It was very hard to research. I couldn't actually find any quotes from Eiko herself about the movie, which was really disappointing.

Sarah Timm   We've had a few of those sometimes there's just no information to be had, you know?

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu I actually feel like I kind of had that with "Mirror, mirror" too. She just...there's not a lot she says about her work, because I think she sort of lets it speak for itself.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. Oh, I did find one quote. This was right before she did "Mirror, mirror". She talked about how she wanted to try doing something computer generated, like "Toy Story", but in real life.

Sarah Timm Whoa!

Jojo Siu That would have been so cool.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. And she she said that she was actually disappointed that she got so famous for doing costume design, because she...I mean, she was a production designer and she had a really long award winning career as a graphic and advertising artists. So when she got really famous for costumes, that's the only thing people wanted to hire her for.

Sarah Timm   Wow, I didn't know that.

Jojo Siu It makes a lot of sense. Like where that artistic vision comes from. Because of the graphic design background. Yeah, I can see a lot of that translation. That's so cool, though.

Kelly Cercone   Because this movie is kind of hard to explain. I'm just going to read a plot synopsis. Because I feel like if we go costume to costume,

Sarah Timm It's gonna be bonkers.

Kelly Cercone You'll miss a lot because a lot about this movie is...it's like playing with archetypes, like storytelling archetypes. So a lot of the characters are those archetypes but they're also...it's kind of like the Wizard of Oz where it's double cast. So you'll see the real life person, that character in the story that's being told, shows up as.  So, in 1915 Los Angeles, heartbroken stunt man Roy Walker is hospitalized and possibly paralyzed after taking a jump in his first film. He meets Alexandria, a young Romanian born patient in the hospital, who is recovering from a broken arm and begins to tell her a story about her namesake, Alexander the Great. Alexandria is told she has to leave, but Roy promises to tell her an epic tale if she returns the next day. The next morning, as Roy spins his tale of fantasy, Alexandria's imagine brings his characters to life. Roy's tale is about five heroes, a silent Indian warrior, and ex-slave, an Italian explosive expert, Charles Darwin, a pet monkey named Wallace and a massive swashbuckling bandit. An evil ruler named Governor Odious has committed an offense against each of the five who will seek revenge. The heroes are later joined by a sixth hero--a mystic. It quickly becomes apparent however, Roy has an ulterior motive for telling the story. He wants to gain Alexandria's trust, so hecan get her to steal medicine for him that he can use to commit suicide. I feel like this entire movie needs to have a trigger warning for suicide.

Sarah Timm Yes.

Jojo Siu Absolutely

Kelly Cercone   It is riddled throughout the movie, from Roy's depression and suicide ideation, when he actually attempts to commit suicide. And some of the other characters also commit sort of suicide in different scenarios later on towards the end. And there's also child abuse, child manipulation and child death. There are parts of this movie that are really intense and they kind of sneak up on you. So for anyone who wants to skip the, the more emotional part of it, I would stop at the one hour and two minute mark or when Roy asks Alexandria if she likes chocolate.

Jojo Siu   It's a good marker.

Sarah Timm   Yeah

Kelly Cercone Yeah. Well, I looked it up because I...the movie. It's so pretty and fun. And then it just takes a hard turn, and if you're not expecting it, it can be a lot. Okay, so getting to the actual costumes now.

Sarah Timm Whoo.

Kelly Cercone   This is Alexandria. And she spends the whole movie in this cast, which is really cute because she's always walking around carrying this box that has all of her special things in it. And a lot of the items in it show up in different ways throughout the movie. I know you guys like a good sweater. And she has a really cute sweater.

Sarah Timm   We do!

Jojo Siu She knows

Kelly Cercone like it has this nice little detailing down the side and it's so cute. And I think it's supposed to be winter in Los Angeles, like they're definitely in LA, but I think it's supposed to be winter because otherwise, you would be way too warm to wear a sweater.

Sarah Timm   Like a breezy 65. You know?

Kelly Cercone   Yeah, exactly. And she spends most of the movie in various sort of dressing gowns, and they usually have a little bit of lace around the collar and sometimes some pin tucking. And they're just...they're super cute.

Sarah Timm She's adorable.

Kelly Cercone   She IS adorable.

Jojo Siu   I love how she's wearing this sweater around her cast.

Kelly Cercone Well, it wouldn't fit! It wouldn't fit otherwise.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu Right. So cute.

Kelly Cercone   And here's Roy. And you pretty much only see him in this shirt. And then later on another sweater. He basically in the real world, he wears the same outfit the whole time. And you never see him from the waist down, which I think was to sort of help sell that he was paralyzed. And I guess when they were filming, they didn't tell her that he could walk. She actually thought that he was paralyzed.

Sarah Timm   Oh my gosh.

Kelly Cercone   They they went really above and beyond to try and get a very authentic response from her. I guess, even though she didn't necessarily have lines, Lee Pace, who plays Roy, would say his dialogue and then she would respond...like improv respond. And then he would play along with her. So a lot of the dialogue in the movie she made up on the spot. And she didn't speak English. So a lot of her...you're actually watching her learn and speak English over the course of the film.

Sarah Timm   Wow, that's amazing!

Jojo Siu I had heard that.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah. And you can I mean, you can tell to like cuz you can, when she's speaking, you can kind of see that she's trying to figure out how to phrase a question.

Sarah Timm Mm hmm.

Kelly Cercone Um, but yeah, his shirt...I did notice, compared to some of the other characters that you see later on, that are wearing more modern shirts. He's actually wearing a slightly, what feels to me like a sort of Pioneer-y shirt. And I wondered if that was a nod to the fact that he's a stuntman and westerns. And maybe this is more what he's comfortable wearing. Because he's usually wearing something like this in a film.

Sarah Timm Interesting.

Kelly Cercone And all of the textiles in the hospital are very worn in, you know. They've probably been washed a million times, it looks very soft. And here is the two of them in bed. As they they spend pretty much the whole time storytelling in various snuggly positions, talking back and forth to each other.

Sarah Timm I did notice when I was watching it last night, I was like, wow, her. She's such a good actress. And you know, like children are not always really good actors. So I was definitely impressed by her. And it makes sense why it feels so natural is because it was it was because right being really natural. That's so

Kelly Cercone yeah. And the curtain that was around his bed, I guess sometimes they would cut holes in the curtain and film through the hole. So that it was just like sort of the two of them interacting. One thing that's worth noting, when you're watching the story unfold in this movie, Roy is the narrator. Like you're always hearing him speaking but what you're actually seeing is from Alexandria, his imagination. So there ends up being some kind of like funny visual dialogue jokes, because they're clearly thinking of different things.

Jojo Siu That's okay. So that was really fun part of the movie that I remember, I think they did that really well.

Kelly Cercone   Oh, this is maybe more for later, but because stunt men are really important in this film. I wanted to show you guys this photo of the stunt men.

Sarah Timm Yes!

Kelly Cercone ...who played all of the main characters.

Sarah Timm   Shout out, stuntmen.

Jojo Siu That's so great. That's awesome.

Kelly Cercone   All right. First up is the bandit. Now this...three different characters wear this costume over the course of the film. The first person we see wearing it is Alexandria's father, and this is when Roy has decided to make him this character in her story. And he starts talking about him being one of the two brothers that bandit brothers. Later, Roy takes over that role when it becomes clear that Alexandria either doesn't understand what he's trying to do or doesn't want her father in the story. So Roy takes on the role of the bandit. And then finally towards the end of the movie, Alexandria inserts herself into the narrative and she becomes the bandits' daughter. She literally shows up and it's like "It's me! Your long lost daughter!"

Kelly Cercone And that's the two of them here.

Sarah Timm Oh my gosh.

Jojo Siu   It's so cute.

Kelly Cercone   It's...It's so cute.

Jojo Siu   I very distinctly remember when I watched this movie, when she comes out with her little red mask, I was just like, "Yay!"

Sarah Timm   Everything is cuter when you make it small.

Kelly Cercone And she's so cute. Like, I think she does.. she tips her little mask up, like "See! See!" This costume...First they start off by saying that he's Spanish, and later the bandit is switched to being French. So there's some sort of mishmashing of elements happening in his costume. But notable is the overly wide suede chaps. And I think that's kind of a nod to him, you know, as the bandit is riding a horse and stealing stuff. But they're very over the top.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone There's a lot of very subtle texture in his robe. It's a silk habotai. And the mask that they all wear is like a raw silk. And his belt has a lot of tooling on it. And the braid is also...I mean it has a very decorative pattern when you zoom in on it. And for how decorative his costume is...I mean, it's silk...you don't think of a bandit wearing a silk outfit riding a horse, but it's still very functional. You see him fighting and swashbuckling in this costume throughout the whole movie and it moves really beautifully.

Sarah Timm Yeah. Silk can really be...I think people associate silk with being really fragile and it's you know,

Kelly Cercone   It's super strong!

Sarah Timm   ....People associate charmeuse and chiffon and floaty and light, but it is really strong. It can be a real workhorse fabric.

Jojo Siu   Definitely.

Kelly Cercone   Next up is the  slave Otta Benga. And the name that they gave him, I feel is a very intentional choice. This is something that Roy probably would have been aware of and why he chose this name because he's based off...er not based off of, but Otta Benga is the real last name of a real life enslaved man who was put on display in the Bronx Zoo in 1906. So Roy probably would have heard about this in the news and maybe that's why he chose the name. I also feel that he was an intentional choice because the real life Otta Benga died by suicide. So I think the director, you know, wanted to pay homage to him and also just thought that it tied in with the themes of the movie. Otta Benga, he broke out of his chains when Governor Odious killed his brother. So his headdress: I actually found some photos from the craftsperson who made the headdress, Adam Howarth, and he said that the beaded headdress was made from iron, iron pyrite or fool's gold. And the horns are resin. I tried to see if they were from any specific animal. And the closest I could find was a Scimitar Oryx.

Sarah Timm Mm.

Jojo Siu Mmm! It's a beautiful shape. And pattern.

Kelly Cercone   The beading is also on the belts of his costume, along with some fur and some more suede. This is his real life counterpart. He is an ice delivery man to the hospital. And he teases Alexandria, because she comes and tries to eat some of the ice. And I noticed that he's wearing a hat. His hat is gray in both worlds. And he's wearing a little shawl here, which sort of comes back later. So I'm just pointing it out. But I like that they have these shots of him with a cart in both versions of the story.

Sarah Timm   Right.

Jojo Siu   Mmhmm. A lot of parallels.

Sarah Timm I had a whole watching that last night with the ice delivery. I had a whole like mental journey. I went on thinking about ice deliveries and how it used to be something that was like part of people's everyday lives and how wild that is.

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu That and milk delivery.

Kelly Cercone Yeah!

Sarah Timm There is a man who came and brought you the ice.

Sarah Timm Anyway. Blew my mind a little bit.

Kelly Cercone Next up is Luigi. And he is very stylish and tailored compared to everyone else. He has this long mustard cloak with little red lining that's visible periodically. And the back of the coat has this really beautiful raised embroidery applique and I love the neckline and  the collar and the cuffs of his coat. It's these like circular pieces that have a lot of movement, like when he's, you know, pointing his gun or running around.

Sarah Timm   I've never seen that sort of cuff before and it looks so cool.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, I, I was trying to like find if there was any historical reference for it. And the closest I could come up to is in the 17th century, like sometimes you saw those kind of overlay circular shapes on shoe pieces.

Jojo Siu   Mmm, mmhmm. Yeah.

Kelly Cercone   I mean, it could not be that and....

Sarah Timm   Right. The closest.

Kelly Cercone   Spoilers, but in his death scene, he opens up his coat, and it has pockets!

Sarah Timm All the pockets!

Kelly Cercone   Pockets full of dynamite. And I also don't...he has, what you think is a shirt is actually an asymmetrical vest that's open on one side?

Sarah Timm   Look at that.

Kelly Cercone   That's his shoulder and it goes down to his stomach.

Jojo Siu I was just thinking that. It's almost like a halter top.

Kelly Cercone   It's just really unexpected. It's like the most...the most buttoned up covered character, when he's like, "Surprise!"

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm Secretly sexy inside.

Kelly Cercone And this is his real life counterpart, which is a friend of Roy's on a fellow stunt man, who has a prosthetic leg that shows up in various symbolic forms throughout the movie. Oh, yeah, I also like this one, because it shows that his real life counterpart is also more tailored than some of the other characters we see.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Kelly Cercone   He's also wearing a nice suit and nice shoes.

Sarah Timm Tied together like the fantasy and real world versions.

Jojo Siu   Yeah.

Kelly Cercone Next we have the Indian. And he's a really good example of how Roy and Alexandria are interpreting the story differently, because it's clear from the phrasing that Roy uses that he's referring to a Native American. But Alexandria is picturing her friend from the orange groves, who is an Indian immigrant from India. So it becomes a bit of a joke.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone And his costume is beautiful. The outer shell is an emerald green organza that there's a lot of pleating  in the skirt, and in the stylized turban, and it's worn over an underlayer that's sort of a rust, maybe cotton or linen. And at one point he rips...he pulls out a piece or rips off a piece to make into a blindfold, because after the death of his squaw, he made a vow never to look upon another woman. And the reason that his wife died was because of Governor Odious, which is why he wants to kill her.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone It's actually really really sad. He...Governor Odious...furthering the theme of suicide throughout the movie, Governor Odious kidnapped his wife. And when she wouldn't, I guess, love him, he put her in a maze that has no escape, except to jump off of a tower and kill yourself.

Sarah Timm   Ugh. That's so dark.

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu   Trigger warning number like 20 at this point.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah, basically.

Sarah Timm   I love that sheer green over the rust. That's...gorge.

Jojo Siu   Yeah

Kelly Cercone     Yeah.

Jojo Siu   That's one of my favorite color greens too. That emerald color. Ugh, It's so gorgeous.

Sarah Timm   Love.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah. And I mean, I have to think it was intentional, but his beard. I love his beard. It always looks sort of styled. They got it to go in the different directions. And when he takes off his turban later in the movie, he has this gorgeous long hair that you're just not really expecting to have been tucked up in there.

Sarah Timm   I love that.

Kelly Cercone   And next we have the naturalist, Charles Darwin.

Sarah Timm   This coat.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah. Again, Adam Howard was one of the craftspeople who worked on it and he said that the coat...the reference for the coat was a highly magnified photo of a butterfly's wing, and that the shape was made with foam. And that the fur was hand colored.

Jojo Siu   Oh my gosh!

Sarah Timm   Wait, so underneath there is foam. Oh, that's amazing.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah, to get it to have that structure and shape and to hold away from his body.

Jojo Siu   Mm hmm.

Sarah Timm   Wow.

Jojo Siu   Even the arms.

Sarah Timm   Yeah are the sleeves foam too?

Kelly Cercone   Maybe I it didn't specify.

Jojo Siu   There might be some in there.

Sarah Timm   Yeah, it looks like it.

Jojo Siu   Just the way it's kind of holding up.

Sarah Timm   Yeah. That's so cool.

Jojo Siu   Mmhmm.

Kelly Cercone And here's Wallace who spends most of the film being carried around in a little bag. Under the coat. He is wearing a white shirt and pants, which his real life counterpart is a hospital orderly, and he's pretty much wearing the same outfit. Like this is what Alexandria sees him wearing on a daily basis. And to remind the audience that he's British, I guess they put him in a bowler hat and jacket. Which makes...it makes a very nice look with the the coat. I'm not mocking it. It's just funny.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm It looks a little bit clockwork orange-y too.

Kelly Cercone   I was thinking that, but I don't think that was what they wanted. Because Darwin is so not edgy.

Sarah Timm   Yeah.

Jojo Siu   Definitely not.

Sarah Timm I guess it's just the white outfit with the black bowler.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Timm   That automatically calls it to mind, you know?

Kelly Cercone   Yeah, no, the second he takes the coat off. You're like, Huh.

Jojo Siu Throwback.

Sarah Timm   I've never seen Clockwork Orange by the way. I don't think I need to.

Jojo Siu It was a pretty disturbing movie. I watched it once. And I was like, mmmm...I don't need to see that again.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, it is. I mean, it is really pretty. The production design on that movie is so good.

Sarah Timm   Yeah.

Jojo Siu   Mm hmm. Yeah. Beautifully done, but hard to watch.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, for sure. Um, so next is the mystic. And he's sort of a combination of two characters. The other orange faker that Alexandria is a friend with and then Otto, who is an old man who is in the hospital. And he sort of...he comforts her at various points in the movie when she's afraid. And he makes jokes about having magic teeth and how to make monsters go away by saying oogly googly. So she sort of combines these two characters into, you know, a magic man who can kind of do a little bit of everything. And they meet him when he literally comes out of a tree. I forget if it's hit by lightning, or just spontaneously bursts into flame. But he crawls out of it and his hair are part of the tree and sort of scrambles out like roots. And he's slowly become sort of more human looking throughout the movie. Since they're all trying to find Governor Odious. He...I mean, he eats Darwin's map, which is poisonous. So then he goes to his friends and they do a ritual to make the directions to Governor Odious show up on his skin. So his skin becomes the map.

Sarah Timm Cool.

Kelly Cercone   And the ritual that they do is based off of a real life chant called the Kecak. And it's a Balinese Hindu dance that is part of Ramayana and is traditionally performed in temples. The checkered robes that they're wearing is actually part of the rituals. So I like that they included that in the movie, even though they're using this ritual in a very non-traditional way.

Sarah Timm That's nice, like a little...

Jojo Siu That's so fascinating.

Sarah Timm Yeah, like a little nod to the real life thing. That's cool.

Jojo Siu I'm trying to remember now, because my family went and saw an original Balinese temple dance, but I assume it was not the same thing because they weren't wearing exactly this, but a lot of the movements now are making me try and remember if they did anything similar when I watched it, but it's so fascinating, though.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah. Well, I mean, from what I read, it's part of a specific story, that it's part of telling the story. So I mean, maybe they don't perform it outside of telling that story.

Jojo Siu     Right, right.

Kelly Cercone   So Governor Odious' soldiers are based off of....At one point in the movie Alexandria sees a man doing x-rays, and it really, really scares her so the soldiers become the nightmare version of the 1920s X-ray outfit, which is a leather apron with a metal breastplate and helmet. And they take that and they sort of...really dehumanize it by blacking out the face and the eyes. And they take away their hands, they take away features that make them recognizable as humans.

Sarah Timm   Right.

Kelly Cercone   And they sort of move in a pack in the movie. Like they have very stylish movements and all of the noises they make are hyenas.

Sarah Timm *gasp.

Kelly Cercone So they're like, cackling.

Jojo Siu   So creepy.

Sarah Timm   Wow. That's...that's extremely creepy. I feel like I should explain to the listeners that I tapped out at the 40 minute mark of this movie, but I definitely intend to go back. I've had a long week. And I was like, I can't pay attention this tonight. It deserves my attention.

Jojo Siu   Save it for another day.

Sarah Timm   So some of these are a surprise to me and some are not.

Jojo Siu Yeah, I can only imagine as a four-year-old.

Kelly Cercone   They're...I mean, they're definitely...they're not in a ton of scenes. But they're...I mean, they're just so beautiful. In a creepy way.

Sarah Timm   Oh, yeah.

Jojo Siu Creepy to a four year old, but really beautiful for us.

Sarah Timm The helmet almost...it looks almost like, I don't know, a kitchen appliance or something. But like a very evil one.

Jojo Siu   And almost like it's formed to the head

Kelly Cercone Like a coffee grinder or a pepper grinder. Or a blender.

Jojo Siu Like a deformed one, that's gotten kind of crushed in.

Sarah Timm   I just went to IKEA today. Maybe I just have home furnishings on my brain. The gloves are very creepy.

Jojo Siu Yeah, it's like they have spoons for hands.

Sarah Timm That's how I draw my hands because I can't draw. So I just draw like a little diamond.

Jojo Siu   A little spoon or spade.

Sarah Timm   It's just kind of like this.

Jojo Siu   Very creepy.

Kelly Cercone So next up is Governor Odious. So part of what is feeding into Roy's depression is...the movie that he was in, he was dating the lead actress in the film. And she breaks up with him and starts dating the lead actor in the film, who is Sinclair. So Sinclair takes on the role of Governor Odious in the story, because Roy really hates him and Alexandria picks up on that. So in real life, he's wearing a striped suit jacket, which is very warm and kind of soft looking. and stylish white pants, and then the story counterpart of him. He's wearing also a stripe coat, but it's very shiny and slick and colorful. And it's just a little over the top. And I don't know if they...he ends up dying in a pool. And I don't know if that was meant to be a "Great Gatsby" reference or not. But it is the 19-...he's very 1920s.

Sarah Timm I feel like 1920s man dying in a pool is...you can't help but think of "Great Gatsby".

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu Very true.

Sarah Timm I like that fabric.

Sarah Timm Smart fabric.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah. And his vest...

Jojo Siu It's a really nice color.

Kelly Cercone   I don't know, it's very hard to see but it does....this vest also has stripes.

Kelly Cercone Hmm. Love it.

Jojo Siu Beautiful. It's got a nice play of textures.

Kelly Cercone So after they have the map, they...they're trying to find Governor Odious. And they come upon this big wagon and they think he's inside, but they open it up and surprise. It's actually Evelyn. And Evelyn is a very complicated character, because she embodies a lot of the heartbreak and mixed feelings that Roy is having about his girlfriend and she's played by nurse Evelyn or sister Evelyn, who is a nun who works in the hospital. So she has...you first see her in her cute little nun outfit, nurse outfit, which is very starched and clean. And you only see Roy's ex-girlfriend for a second and she's wearing a very simple linen sort of driving suit. When I think of pictures of Edwardian ladies wearing driving suits with the big hats, but she has hair that is a little more 1930s.

Kelly Cercone Mmhmm

Jojo Siu   Mmhmm.

Kelly Cercone   When she appears in the story as Princess Evelyn, she's wearing this...

Jojo Siu   Ugh. My favorite.

Kelly Cercone   Beautiful gown.

Sarah Timm   There it is.

Jojo Siu   So beautiful.

Kelly Cercone   This costume is very Chinese inspired, from the reference pictures that I looked up. I am going to guess that it was inspired by the Ming Dynasty specifically. And then it has very stylized Lotus embroidery down the front and these bands that...they're sort of... when you look closely, they're not completely attached. They're kind of floating on the surface of this sleeve to make this...just her sleeves very structured and a focal point. And she has this very elaborate hat with a veil of fans that then open.

Sarah Timm   Oh, that's so cool.

Kelly Cercone   And surprise! She has pants underneath, I think.

Sarah Timm   Beautiful and functional.

Kelly Cercone   Oh no wait that's just her sleeves. I'm wrong. Oh well this...this scene is funny, because I...Oh wait, you didn't get that far!

Sarah Timm   I'm sorry.

Kelly Cercone She's like....Roy's telling this story, right? And he can tell that Alexandria has to go pee. But Evelyn is acting out that she has to go to the bathroom as she's talking to him. And it's so funny.

Sarah Timm Okay, yeah. That's hilarious.

Jojo Siu You must watch the second half of this movie soon Sarah.

Sarah Timm   At 11 when I was turning it off. I was like 'Kelly's gonna beat me up'.

Kelly Cercone   Well, now you'll just have a greater appreciation when you watch it.

Jojo Siu It's true.

Sarah Timm   Exactly. Yes.

Jojo Siu   You'll catch all the little trips.

Kelly Cercone   So next, Alexandria has decided that she wants romance in the movie, or in the stories, so she sort of pushes Roy to make this a romantic love interest. And we see Evelyn in this very, very over the top sort of fairy princess. And there's a corseted bodice, so I'm like, maybe it's a little bodice ripper, although she's probably way too young to know what that is. I mean, this just screams romantic heroine. And she has a line about how feeling like, "I was like a bird in a cage". And then there's music playing and Alexandria is singing her lines. And then she literally has birds. So the story is like...because you find out she was betrothed to Governor Odious. And she's like, "Oh, I've been rescued now by this bandit, and he loves me!" So, you know, this is their great moment here.

Sarah Timm   Classic romance novel sort of story.

Kelly Cercone And her locket that she's wearing is the same locket that Roy gave his girlfriend in real life. So a lot of his...he's having a lot of feels in this scene. And he's taking them out on her, even though, I mean, it's really his feelings about his ex-girlfriend.

Sarah Timm   Right.

Kelly Cercone I tracked down the patternmaker--the woman who originally made this costume--her name is Jane Law, and she has some pictures on her website and surprise! The costume apparently originally had sleeves.

Sarah Timm I was gonna say...

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm What're those?

Kelly Cercone They're never in the movie. So I think they must have just decided they didn't want to use them for whatever reason. And I found another picture of the same costume in a museum. And there, it only had one sleeve.

Jojo Siu Only one sleeve. Interesting.

Sarah Timm That's odd.

Jojo Siu It's like seeing all the different options of what you could and couldn't do with this.

Kelly Cercone   But I mean, I love this costume. It's my favorite costume. And I mean, I just love like when you zoom in on the bodice, there's all of this texture from this lace that was clearly hand-painted and just very lovingly applied everywhere.

Sarah Timm   This is the one you've made.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. Or the one I cosplayed. I didn't make this one. But I made a cosplay of it. Yeah, 'cause...right.

Sarah Timm   Right, right, right, right. Yes.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah. I pretty much watched this movie and then instantly lost my mind.

Jojo Siu It makes sense.

Sarah Timm   We all have those moments.

Jojo Siu Especially with how beautiful these costumes are.

Kelly Cercone   Oh, I forgot to show you earlier. But when...on the anniversary of Eiko's birthday, the year after she passed away. Google did a Google Doodle of her and the costumes they did were from "The Fall". So these were the three little Google doodles that they did, so it's Evelyn's Lotus dress, Luigis coat, and then, her wedding dress, which I will show you in a minute.

Sarah Timm That's so cool.

Jojo Siu   So exciting!

Sarah Timm What a nice little tribute.

Jojo Siu   Yeah.

Kelly Cercone So yeah, after...

Sarah Timm   Somebody at Google has taste.

Kelly Cercone   After their little love fest, they decide to get married. And I love that each of the characters...they get slightly more dressed up. So Otta Benga puts on a orange, iridescent orange robe. The Indian puts on a little jewel brooch on his turban and The Mystic puts on gold face paint.

Sarah Timm   Just a little gussied up.

Kelly Cercone It's very simple, but they really made an effort for their friend and this scene is very surreal because at this point, Roy has taken what he thinks is a whole bottle of morphine. So he's kind of tripping out and is spinning, and then they're surrounded by Sufi's...like Sufi dancers who are doing a meditative dance, and it's very surreal and beautiful.

Sarah Timm I love the big skirts.

Jojo Siu And can you just explain to us what the Sufi dancers are for our audience members who do not know what that is

Sarah Timm I don't know what that is. I was nodding my head like I knew, but I don't.

Jojo Siu   Sorry to put you on the spot, 'cause I realized I was like "oh I don't think I know what that is."

Kelly Cercone   I knew I wouldn't remember everything, so I tried to take notes.

Jojo Siu   Totally fine.

Kelly Cercone   It is a meditative practice for a certain branch of Islam. So that, I guess it's a ritual.

Jojo Siu   Very cool. Thank you, I'm sure we would have one person out there asking that.

Kelly Cercone In this movie, it's probably very stylized and not how it is in real life. I would assume...

Jojo Siu Right

Kelly Cercone ...because I feel like I have seen videos of Sufi dancers before and it does not look like this, and one thought that I had about the colors of their outfits, which I will come back to, after we talk about her wedding dress, but I think that this color choice of the white over the blue was intentional. So, This is Evelyn's wedding dress. And as you can see, it is just...

Sarah Timm That's so beautiful,

Kelly Cercone It has sleeves similar to her Lotus dress but they're much more structured, they're almost padded, or I think they are padded or quilted with rolls. The fabric is a very 3-D jacquard, and maybe even trapunto like here on the sleeves, you can see there are these raised portions. And it has sleeves like her Lotus dress but it's much more fitted and even has like a bustle in the back. These pleats fan out over something, doing support here and I see maybe an outline of a hoop. And yeah and I mean her headdress is just amazing...

Jojo Siu   Just phenomenal.

Kelly Cercone This film has a lot of use of veils and masks, as I'm sure you've seen, which I can only assume is symbolic of hiding one's true feelings and emotions and motivations, and so there's a lot of duplicitousness in this movie.

Sarah Timm Yeah, the padded rolls remind me sort of, of kimonos. We had to make one for M. Butterfly that you would have to you know, like roll a whole thing of batting, you know, every hem is like this padded rolls.

Kelly Cercone I mean, you can kind of see, it does look like it is also padded at the hem. You can see kind of a little tulle down there.

Sarah Timm   Yep, It's a cool effect.

Jojo Siu I think a lot of the kimonos have that layered sleeve look too, so it's kind of...it's very reminiscent of that.

Kelly Cercone   I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure even if she wasn't thinking of that, it was in her design aesthetic, obviously.

Jojo Siu   Yeah.

Kelly Cercone So, going back to the Sufi's for a second. When I was also looking through her scenes, it kind of made me think of like a bed comforter, which then led me down this thought train of like, "Oh well, maybe the white over the blue is supposed to be symbolic of the weight of his relationship, and heartbreak is smothering him, like a too-big blanket. It might be a stretch, but I was like, "hmmm, it's just late night" .

Jojo Siu While you're in bed. It makes sense. I can see that connection there.

Sarah Timm Even if it's not something that was intended by the filmmakers, it's fun to sort of find those little, maybe symbolic things that you can read into as a viewer,

Kelly Cercone   Yeah, I mean, this movie has so many things in it that you can take symbolism from and I'm sure there's even more, 'cause I'm watching this as a Western person, and the director is Indian, and I'm sure there's a lot of cultural references in here, that I'm not picking up on.

Jojo Siu   Right.

Kelly Cercone   And a lot of people that actually pointed that out is that there's so much interplay of different points of view, like from Roy and Alexandria and then....When you're talking about this movie being about a love letter of storytelling, it's sort of also the collaborative process of storytelling because the story changes so much throughout the course of the movie based off of the different points of view.

Jojo Siu   I think that's a very non-western trope as well, of storytelling because we talk about passing stories down through generations. And I think that also carries through this movie, very very well, not just from his perspective but also from Eiko's perspective too, I think, 'cause having all those different layers, there's so much symbolism and kind of religious mysticism, that's a very big part of Eastern culture and Eastern sensibilities that I think definitely shows up. So I think that's a great point. So beautiful.

Kelly Cercone   I mean, this is kind ofthe last big costume. There are a few minor things after this but, I mean really after this, it's kind of like a cartoon where a lot of the characters stay in the same costume the whole time.

Sarah Timm   I like it.

Jojo Siu   I think this touches on so much of what's in there though. This gives us a really good smattering of all the characters and how we see each of them in the real life, and also the fantasy element in that parallel is really fun. And what a great challenge for a costume designer to be able to kind of come up with two very distinct, but "they need to tie together" looks.

Sarah Timm   Yeah.

Kelly Cercone   And I guess...oh yeah! I just thought of this right now: she's wearing a very structured white hat, and when she's a nun, she's also wearing a very structured white hat. There's just so many parallels. I love it.

Jojo Siu   Yeah, Eiko really thinks of everything, like in all of her movies, that's all I've ever seen.

Kelly Cercone   I mean this movie... this movie had a $30 million budget! That's nothing...like it's insane that they made this movie was so little money. I know $30 million sounds like a lot and it's not for a giant movie.

Sarah Timm   Not for a movie with this...

Jojo Siu   Especially with all those locations too! It's insane.

Sarah Timm   Well, it's like we were talking about earlier the triangle of cheap, fast and good. They picked cheap and good, and it took them four years.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah.

Jojo Siu   Yep. It took them a very long time, but it was worth it.

Sarah Timm   The correct decision.

Jojo Siu   Yeah. Very, very true. Well thank you so much, Kelly this was so much fun. It was nice to kind of revisit the costumes, especially since I hadn't seen it in so long and I was like, "oh yeah that's what happens in this movie!" But yes, it was fun to see all of them again, and all the characters again and kind of be reminded of what happened.

Kelly Cercone   I was so happy to have a chance to really dig in and research this movie because I learned even more about it and it just made me love it more, so to hear about all of the behind-the-scenes work that went into it, like what I actually managed to find, made me just love it even more.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm That's half the fun of making this podcast is the research part. I know that I have had such a good time, especially if it's one of my favorite movies, you know, finding out all these tidbits that I didn't know before, and it just deepens your appreciation for it and especially not even just as a film but it makes you appreciate the craftspeople who put their work into it and made it what it is.

Jojo Siu   For sure.

Kelly Cercone Because they shot in so many different countries, they hired...a lot of times, it was a local crew, so when I was looking at the costume crew, it would be like "Seamstress: India, Seamstress, Italy". It's really...they pulled from a huge talent pool to make it happen.

Jojo Siu   That's awesome. Yeah, that's great. I feel like that adds so much more of that authenticity to the process to knowing that you're not just getting one team working on everything and not saying that they can't make it beautiful, but you're getting a little bit from every country, and seeing some of that sense based on that seamstress or that team or whatever is going to whoever is going to be around.

Kelly Cercone   One of the themes of the movie is collaboration and different points of view. You're actually getting input from all of these different people from all these different countries.

Sarah Timm   Yes.

Jojo Siu   Yeah.

Sarah Timm   Yes, completely.Well, great job.

Jojo Siu   I know. Yay for all the prepwork!

Sarah Timm Expertly done.

Kelly Cercone Thank you.

Jojo Siu It was.

Sarah Timm   So do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about...maybewhat you do in, you know the entertainment industry? What do you do?

Kelly Cercone   Yeah so, I am a member of the Motion Picture Costumers, local 705, and I am a table person, which is really the equivalent of a firsthand for people who are in theater and know what that means. But on a daily basis, I will assist the cutter/fitter or pattern maker with easily whatever they need help with, whether that'sfinishing patterns or cutting out fabric, stitching, sort of like organizing prioritizing projects, I mean, I'm essentially an assistant to the cutter/fitter.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu Very cool.

Sarah Timm   That's kind of what I do in theater, so it's funny that we sort of are parallel, but in different industries. So what have been some of your favorite projects? You could say some of your favorite films you've worked on or even favorite pieces that you're really proud of having a hand in.

Kelly Cercone   There's so many. I mean I was like, over the moon when I got to work on the Mandalorian, because I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and

Sarah Timm   Yeah!

Kelly Cercone   I was...when I found out that they were me filming it in Los Angeles, I was snooping hardcore to try and get any information, so that I could get on that show and then I was working on Avatar, and we were walking around the studio and I looked over and I saw a poster with Boba Fett's face on it and it was like, "They're filming it here?" Literally it was two stages over.

Sarah Timm   Oh my god, "I'm just gonna walk in and pretend like I already worked there."

Jojo Siu   Just show up and sit down and start working.

Sarah Timm I've been here the whole time I'm sewing this thing, what are you talking about?

Jojo Siu   What do you mean you don't know who I am?

Sarah Timm That's rad.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah,

Jojo Siu   That is pretty awesome.

Kelly Cercone   That was very...

Jojo Siu   Very cool.

Kelly Cercone   All the Marvel films I've worked on have been really great. Yeah, and there was one pilot that I worked on that we got to make so many amazing costumes and the pilot never came out. I just get sad every time I think about it, but I mean that just happens

Sarah Timm It does.

Jojo Siu   Yeah.

Kelly Cercone I don't even know what the ratio is, of pilots that get canned versus into shows, but I mean it happens.

Sarah Timm   What was it called?

Kelly Cercone It's called "Hieroglyph", and it was gonna be the Egyptian version of Game of Thrones.

Jojo Siu Fascinating!

Sarah Timm I would watch that.

Jojo Siu That makes me sad that it never went anywhere!

Kelly Cercone   The trailer used to be up on Hulu. I don't know if it still is, but it was for a while, which surprises me. Why would you put up the trailer, if you're never going to make the show? But, okay. I mean I'm still happy to see it

Sarah Timm True. Those are for advertising things.

Jojo Siu It's true. So sad.

Sarah Timm   I assume that the costumes you made for them are hopefully...hopefully they'll be used for something else lovely right.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know where they ended up. They could be in a rental house somewhere.

Sarah Timm Yeah.

Kelly Cercone They don't tell me these things.

Jojo Siu   They just disappear. You never see them again.

Sarah Timm So what brought you to costuming? Do you have a specific experience in your life? Or did you always know that it was something you wanted to do?

Kelly Cercone I always knew that it was something I wanted to do, or I knew I wanted to do something, sewing related. I remember my mom telling me when I was like six or seven.We were in the car going somewhere and she turns to me and she's like...or...I turned to her and apparently I claimed that I was going to become of corset maker one day, and she was like, "okay, honey, that's...that's great".

Sarah Timm   That's hilarious.

Kelly Cercone I mean I did! I become a corset maker! But yeah, I mean I think...it didn't really...it stupidly didn't really occur to me until I was in high school and saw the Lord of the Rings movies, I was like, "Oh right! This is like a JOB, job." And then I was like, "I'm gonna do that". I had a brief stint in high school, where I was like, "Oh!" or...No, I would say in junior high, where I was like "Oh! Maybe I'll become a marine biologist" and then it was like, "No I want to make costumes".

Sarah Timm I feel like...

Jojo Siu I think I had that in ninth grade too, like, "I'm gonna be a doctor".

Sarah Timm I know a lot of people who are like, "Oh yeah, I had a marine biologist phase". Everybody has a phase like that when they remember they're like "The ocean is rad. I'm gonna be a marine biologist".

Kelly Cercone   Well, I mean it's like...I grew up watching National Geographic. Glorious.

Jojo Siu   So fascinating. The ocean IS fascinating. There's so much in there.It's magical.

Kelly Cercone I actually met a marine biologist, and she's like, "I had literally the opposite experience. I was in school and I thought I was gonna become a fashion designer and then I became a marine biologist.

Sarah Timm     Oh my god.

Jojo Siu   How funny. When do you ever hear that?

Sarah Timm     Did you have a Freaky Friday at some point?

Jojo Siu   And just never switch back.

Sarah Timm Wow.

Jojo Siu That's so funny. So how, if you don't mind me asking, how did you kind of first get into, you know, costuming for movies? I know you said you went to FIDM with Sarah, but what was your kind of first transition between?

Kelly Cercone   While I was still in school, I interned for a local stylist Mildred of Mother of London, and a lot of...she had a clothing line, but she would also do custom pieces for a lot of musicians, and then that sort of rolled into making costumes for small independent movies. And once I graduated, I mean not immediately, but...'cause you have to get 30 days to join the union, and it took me a while to get 30 days. But I was working at an all local costume house, off and on, and kind of just...I think my first...actually "hieroglyph" was the first big pilot that I worked on. And it was through people that I had met at FIDM through Paul, our teacher, and he put me in touch with Christie, who is the costume designer on "heiroglyph".

Sarah Timm It really is all about who you know.

Jojo Siu   Yeah.

Sarah Timm All of my jobs pretty much have stemmed from my first internship that I took after college, you know it's because I met that person through that, and I met them through that and it's, you know, people I've met, just through one single job.

Jojo Siu   It's true. Very, very true. Very cool. Well thank you so much for telling us all about that Kelly, it's been really fascinating to hear about all the perspectives of how people get into our industry. Because I think that's also, like...We are hitting people that are obviously in our industry, but we're also hitting a lot of people who totally have no idea what we do so it's cool to be able to hear both perspectives.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah, and it's very opaque from the outside. I get a lot of people messaging me asking for advice and, you know I explain it as best I can but it's really not a clear process, or even just to explain to people. They're like, "do I need a master's degree?" and I'm like, "No, you just need to be able to do the job."

Sarah Timm   Yeah.

Jojo Siu   Right.

Kelly Cercone   And that's the opposite that most industries, you know, tell students.

Sarah Timm   Right.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm   Right.

Kelly Cercone I mean, not that education is bad, I think education is amazing but it can feel very backwards sometimes.

Jojo Siu Yeah, very true.

Sarah Timm I feel left out a lot as a costume as a theater costume designer specifically that I don't have a master's, because so many working costume designers do, and I'm always just like, I have the same skill set, you know, it's just an extra thing that I didn't do. So it's interesting, what industries that matters,  and then what industries it doesn't.

Jojo Siu   Well, and...to be honest, where you're working Sarah, I don't really think it does matter that much. If someone DOES have an MFA, there's sometimes where I'm just kind of...I don't...It was like an extra thing. It's certainly not something that's getting me more work.

Sarah Timm   Right.

Jojo Siu I mean, I shouldn't say that it's gotten me some, but it hasn't gotten me all of my jobs.

Kelly Cercone   Yeah.

Jojo Siu For sure.

Kelly Cercone It's probably more...I mean, more networking.

Jojo Siu Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Cercone Showing people that you can work hard and, you know...do the work.

Jojo Siu   Yeah, totally. I think it also is about how well you work with other people right. We keep talking about collaboration and that's such a huge part of our industry too. It's not just about getting the job done. It's also about getting along with the people you're working with. so that they'll want to hire you. No one wants to work with someone who's horrible to work with, regardless of how good your skill is. Unless you know...unless you're really that far above and beyond. But most of the time., if you have a reputation for being that horrible on every job, you kind of start, you start filtering out a little bit.

Sarah Timm   Yeah I think if you're established you can be a jerk to people and still get jobs, but if you're not yet, then you're not gonna get hired back.

Kelly Cercone   If you've won an oscar, you can be a jerk.

Sarah Timm   I should tell that to some of the jerks that I've worked with. Be like, "Excuse me, you didn't win an Oscar? Then you don't need to yell at me. Thanks so much.

Jojo Siu Yeah, totally agree. Well, thank you so much, Kelly. I hope you had fun.

Sarah Timm   Yay!

Kelly Cercone   I'm was just like, oh god I love this movie so much. I was like, I hope I'm not giving way too much information, and that this makes sense. Because there's so much in this movie to love.

Sarah Timm   It's very dense.

Jojo Siu Yes.

Kelly Cercone   But worth really diving into the nitty gritty of. I think.

Jojo Siu   That's the fun of these podcasts too though. It's where you really do get to kind of dive in deep and take the time to talk about it. I feel like when we have an hour to talk about two movies, it always feels really rushed, but it's nice to be able to take our time through one and really go in.

Kelly Cercone   I'm really are impressed with how much ground you guys manage to cover in one episode with two things. I'm always like, "How are they being so succinct, and descriptive?"

Jojo Siu   Thank you for saying that because we certainly don't feel that.

Kelly Cercone   No it was great. It's great.

Sarah Timm   That's the best feedback we've ever gotten. I'm so thrilled to hear that. I'm leaving this in the episode.

Jojo Siu   Especially when half the time we're like "Sarah I feel like I've talked too much. Did I cover everything? I don't feel like anybody knows what we're talking about."

Sarah Timm   It's funny because a lot of the times, we'll alternate. The one episode JoJo will talk for 40 minutes and I'll talk for 20, and then we'll switch the next episode. So it's like...we kind of just fill in the spaces as needed.

Jojo Siu Very true.

Sarah Timm But yeah. Thank you for joining us to nerd out about costumes, It's the best.

Kelly Cercone Thank you for having me.

Sarah Timm   You're so welcome. Can you tell our listeners where to find you on the internet, if they feel inclined? They're probably...I think, based on discussions there's only one place, but tell them where that is.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, I am sort of taking a break from social media. So really the only thing I have right now is Instagram, which I periodically update. But a lot of my prior work and tutorials and whatnot are still on there for people to look at and I respond to questions, almost all the time, as long as they're not creepy.

Sarah Timm We'll link you in the episode description, so that people can go right to you in the profile.

Jojo Siu   Yeah.

Sarah Timm Awesome.

Jojo Siu Cool. Well thanks again, this was really successful. Great job Kelly!

Kelly Cercone Thank you

Sarah Timm   All right, so that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it.

Jojo Siu   Yeah, and join us next time.

Sarah Timm Yeah we have some good movies coming up.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm I'm excited about it!

Jojo Siu I'm excited!

Sarah Timm Alright, that's it.

Jojo Siu Thanks everyone. We'll catch you on the next one. Bye!

Sarah Timm Bye!

Jojo Siu   Thank you for listening to the Costume plot. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment or movie suggestion, you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah Timm Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 15: What Happened to Monday & Tron: Legacy

Please consult these Instagram slideshows for accompanying images:  What Happened to Monday Tron: Legacy

Sarah and Jojo: Welcome to the costume plot. Jojo Siu I'm Jojo Siu Sarah Timm and I'm Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description. Jojo Siu We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in the Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo Siu Hello, and welcome back. Sarah Timm Welcome back to the costume plot. Jojo Siu Second episode of the day. Sarah Timm We record these back to back so it's been two weeks for you guys, but it's been about five minutes for us Jojo Siu It's weird to think about that. Sarah Timm A little bit, huh? How's the future? Is it fun? Jojo Siu I know. Tell us. Tell us all about it. Sarah Timm Is Coronavirus over? Jojo Siu Finally. Oh man. Oh, yeah. Did you get your vaccine? Sarah Timm I did! Yeah. And by the time this episode comes out, I will be fully vaccinated meaning that the two weeks will have passed. I got it on the 29th of March. Jojo Siu Woohoo! I'm super excited. So excited! Then we'll both be fully vaccinated. Sarah Timm Yeah Jojo Siu And we can actually have a hang out! Without masks! Sarah Timm Imagine that. I know. Our friend Ramsey has gotten his vaccine and his boyfriend has, and we're planning to have dinner parties. And we're just so excited to finally DO stuff. Jojo Siu I know. I'm very excited. Matt's supposed to get his on Friday. Sarah Timm Exciting. Jojo Siu Yeah. All right. Well, I will I will get us started on our our next episode, Sarah Timm What's our theme today? Jojo Siu This one is not as scary as I last episode. Sci-fi is a little less creepy for me. Although, you know, it is also something very near and dear to us in the future. So that COULD be scary. Sarah Timm Sometimes, Sci-fi is scary. Jojo Siu It's true. But I'm very excited to talk about this movie. It's something that I watched a long time ago. And I will say the storyline is probably not the most new or interesting for a sci fi kind of thriller. But I also really just love the actors that are in this movie. And it's a pretty big all-star cast. So I will get started. Let me share my screen. Okay, so I will be covering the movie "What Happened to Monday. And this movie, it's probably not as well known. But again, it's something that I've really come to enjoy. And it's a very fun movie. So if you're looking for something kind of, I don't want to say on the lighter side. I guess there's some light parts of it, but it is kind of a darker movie. It's directed by Tommy Wirkola, who wrote and directed "Dead Snow" as well as "Dead Snow 2". You probably know him the best from the new "Hansel and Gretel" movie. So he did that action "Hansel and Gretel" . And then he also did--I wrote this down because no one knows what it is--but it's "Kill Buljo" which is a parody of "Kill Bill". Oh, and apparently, there's also a sequel for that. So I thought that was funny that, you know, that was on his list of things. So he hasn't done a ton of work. But the few things he's done--it looks like they were more in the sci-fi genre. So he tends to kind of lean towards that. And then the costume designer for this was Oana Paunescu. I hope I'm saying that correctly. She did several versions of "Dragonheart". And then she was also the wardrobe supervisor for a show called "Mirrors". And then she also did "Seed of Chucky", which is probably the one that most people know. But yeah, so this was an interesting kind of adventure for her, she talks a little bit about how she really had to figure out how to dress seven versions of the same person. And I should probably go back and tell you what the premise of the story is. So the idea is that we are in a kind of not-so-distant in the future. The setting is 2043. And I don't know what city it's supposed to be, because again, this is in the future. I think it's supposed to be kind of a representative of any urban city setting. But it's the idea that at this point, they've been doing all of these things to kind of solve all the environmental problems that we've had, that have been created by you know, world global warming and all those other things. But in order to do that, it's actually created a new defect, where humans when they get pregnant, are actually coming out with multiple births. So people regularly will have septuplets or you know, quintuplets or whatever. So basically this idea of overpopulation has now happened. And so in order to control that, the character Glenn Close, who is not necessarily a councilwoman but she's kind of representing this new age of science, where she is fighting for putting all the siblings or having one child in each family that exists in the world and then having all the rest of her siblings or his siblings put into cryogenic sleep until sometime in the future. So that's their way of kind of controlling the population and trying to keep that in control. And so of course, that means that you know, every sibling is supposed to be put into cryogenic sleep, but of course there is the main character is played by Noomi Rapace. Is that how you say her name? Sarah Timm I think it's "Rapas". I'm not 100% sure. Jojo Siu Noomi Rapace, who is infamously known for "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" Sarah Timm The Swedish one, not the American one. Jojo Siu Yeah, yes, Sarah Timm She's so good in that, Jojo Siu Yes, very good in that one. But she plays our leading lady. So basically, her mother died in childbirth, giving birth to her and her six other siblings. And Karen Settman is the name of the mother. And so the grandfather, father of this mother, who gave birth to these sevenchildren, he decides discreetly, he finds a hospital where she's allowed to deliver them safely and ends up keeping them. And so the grandfather ends up coming up with this whole system. Where because there's seven of them, he names each of the kids after a day of the week. And so he trains them and basically protects them, and actually builds a whole space custom made for them. So he teaches them to go out each day of their week, and only go out, but always as Karen Settman. So each of them has their persona inside the house. But when they leave the house, they are always representing one only child--Karen Settman. Sarah Timm So they each have their own day of the week where they get to leave the house. Jojo Siu Yeah, exactly. But you know, one of the things too, is that the grandfather recognizes that this is a very dangerous world. They actually COULD be taken by the police, and he doesn't want them to be put into cryogenic sleep, he wants them to be able to grow up together. But of course, because of that, he has to train them to realize that whatever happens to one of them outside on the streets, has to happen to all of them, because they all have to be Karen Settman--the ONE Karen Settman. So they kind of lose their own identity. He talks about them being able to be themselves at the house. And there's a lot of flashbacks to him, training them as kids. And what happens if they can't have two of them out on the street at the same time in case someone sees a second twin, or suddenly realizes they have seven of them in the same house. And then he also builds in basically a cry of a panic room. And has them train what'll happen in case the government comes to the door and they have to hide. Sarah Timm Wow. Jojo Siu So basically, that is the the starting premise of this story. And of course, we show the flashbacks of how they came to this place. But then the movie starts off with Sunday returning home. And she is basically you know, she's she's lived her life, she's come back from work. And they have a very specific dress for what she looks like everyday when she goes to work. And then when she comes back to her very kind of shoddy looking hotel, you finally realize she's got six other siblings and their practice is, at the end of every day, that she introduces, or sorry, they all have bracelets where they check in to each of the locations. And it actually--the bracelet goes to the government and tells them this is a one child only. So there's a lot of things that you know, the grandfather has clearly done to tamper with all of this technology that's in the future to make sure they're safe. So the movie is called "What Happened to Monday?" Because on Monday, "Monday" goes out she has this big presentation where she's supposed to get promoted at work. And she goes and is very worried about her job on Monday. And then she suddenly goes missing. Sarah Timm Oh! Jojo Siu ...and shortly before she goes missing, you find out that one of her co-workers is kind of threatening her and says "I know. I know your secret. You better. You better listen to me. You better give ME the promotion so that you don't get ousted" Sarah Timm Right. Jojo Siu And then she just disappears so she never comes home. The rest of the sisters don't know what's happened. And that's kind of where we start the movie. So let me move on to our costumes. Sarah Timm Oh, wow. Jojo Siu So I'm going to start actually breaking this down by character because I've given you quite a lot of backstory. So I'm not going to necessarily go throughout the movie because they mostly stay in very similar costumes pretty much throughout the entire story. And again, this takes place pretty much over a week, because we go through each of the days. This is just a quick, quick close up of Glenn Close, I wanted to focus very briefly on all of her costumes. Because she, at least in this picture, she reminds me a lot of Margaret Thatcher. Sarah Timm Yes. Jojo Siu And sort of the new age of the future. She's kind of trying this changing of a lot of what's happening and trying to really do good for, for controlling this overpopulation problem. And so she's kind of the face of, of this overpopulation. It's called the... Collection--I should know this--Collection something Bureaucy. But it's called CAB for short. So she runs CAB. And basically, they're the people that collect the siblings, if they find out there are more than one. Sarah Timm This hair. Jojo Siu I know, it's crazy. Her hair isn't like that the whole time. That's just the introduction, we see her in at the very beginning of the movie. So then we go to the second image of her and this is when she's in her facility. So in the CAB facilities, and you see her kind of peeping into a room full of children. And these are children that they've collected, when they found out they were siblings of other parents. So she, she looks in the room, and it's just this group of small kids that are kind of playing around. And so she keeps talking about, "they're not going to be in pain, it'll be great." And so this--I just wanted to focus on how beautiful this coat is. She's in a lot of like blues and greens throughout the movie, kind of very earthy tones, which is very ironic, because she's kind of she's actually kind of our villain until the very end. But I love how clean cut her look is. And again, very, very, like Prime Minister; a very "Margaret Thatcher" look. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu And then this is the final scene. So this is actually towards the end of the movie when she's about to run for council woman. So BIG SPOILER alert, you find out that she has not been cryogenically freezing any of these siblings. She puts them into this pod, and then gives them a shot to basically, either put them to sleep or make them unconscious or whatever the series is, and then they actually get burned to death. So they all get incinerated. So you find out that she's actually just been killing all of these siblings. Sarah Timm I mean, that's not surprising. But the mess is..... Jojo Siu Right, right. Right, exactly. So, you know, you find out that she has been lying about all this stuff, she has been the face of this cryogenic, you know, CAB thing for so long. And so she is trying to run for counselor. And she's made this deal with one of the sisters to let her live in order to help her. To give her a huge donation basically to become council woman. So this is that final scene where she's talking to the sister. And this is also just a quick show of whatall of the Karen segments were when they go to work. So this is the typical outfit, every single one of them has the same exact clothing, they wear their hair exactly the same way. And you'll see kind of when we go to some of the other characters, how different they are when they're back at home. But this is kind of the image. And Monday was the first one that was born out of the seven. So she is the one that kind of starts the week. And so, when she disappears, her outfit actually is the closest to what she wears inside the house in addition to outside the house. So I wanted to kind of show that, because that's basically what you see most of them in when they're out on the street. Okay, moving on. So this is just a quick family shot. And you can see how different each of the different family members are. Sunday is actually right at the end of the table Monday you see here is right on the...kind of right of center. And she you can see here she's got green on, but it's actually the same exact silhouette as the blue blazer that she's wearing in the previous scene. This one is Saturday, so she's kind of the party girl. Sarah Timm Basic, 'cause she's Saturday! Jojo Siu Exactly, exactly. And I'll talk a little bit more about how the costume designer decided to break up the days of the week too. Friday is right here so she's kind of got the beanie and the plaid flannel. Thursday is sort of our tomboy, skater girl, so she's kind of the one that always questions the system; doesn't understand why they have to do this; feels like she wants to break out and always wants to have her own voice. Wednesday is our kind of athletic gym rat. So she is the one that's always working out and you know, doing stuff, and then you can't really see your face, but we'll we'll get some close ups on her later. But Tuesday is kind of our hippie pot smoking nerd. So she's the one that's always smoking and always whatever--very chill. She's also the only one with red hair out of the... Sarah Timm Oh. Jojo Siu Seven of them. Okay, moving on. So just another quick shot, this is just what she's wearing all the time when she goes out. So she's got that dress underneath with the blue, but then she always has this blue trench coat that she wears on top. And you see her in that all the time--she's always in the same earrings. So there's a whole scene where they have almost like a technology grid, and it actually will take a look at all the blemishes on their face to make sure that they look exactly the same. Sarah Timm Fancy! Jojo Siu ...whenever they go out, which is so crazy. So you have acne "here", or you're a little red "here", or your eyes are really red today or whatever it is. And then it helps them kind of figure out what they need to make up or cover up in order to look exactly the same. So again, this look is very, very contrived, every single one of them has to look exactly the same when they leave the house. The other big part is they have to tell each other what's happened in the day. Because if there's anything any conversations they had with another, you know, coworker, or they have to be consistent, they need to know exactly what the conversations were about, and all of that. So that part of their bracelet is that they actually have a little camera in there to kind of walk them through what's happened throughout the day. And Friday, who's the tech geek is the one that kind of helps them figure out all of that. Sarah Timm I was thinking how hard it would be to only get to go to work once a week and have to pretend like you've been there the whole time. That's a lot of work to keep up with! Jojo Siu It is. SO much. And I think you know, they all start kind of feeling that eventually, because they've been growing up in this system for so long. So losing that individuality anywhere outside the house can be really hard. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu So it was really hard to find pictures of of these costumes. So I pulled up all of these posters. So there actually won't be as many pictures for this one, Sarah, you'll be very excited. But I wanted to kind of just go through some of the costume designers' notes on what each of the days meant for her. So like we talked a little bit about Monday. So for her "Monday would wear something a little bit softer in color, and you wouldn't necessarily think that she's softer because of what her character does." And again, SPOILER alert, Monday actually sells her siblings out in order to try and stay alive. And she has good reasons at the end of the movie, but the way that it's portrayed in this movie, it makes it seem like she's the villain. When you find out at the very end that she's actually fallen in love with one of the CAB officers, who doesn't know that she's a sibling, but he and her basically have been together for months. She finally decides that she wants to just be free of this life and doesn't want to have siblings. And she's also pregnant with twins. So, in order to protect her twins, she signs this, you know agreement with Kaman who is played by Glenn Close. And so, in order to give her that huge donation to become the Councilwoman, she will be protected, her kids will be protected, and not taken. And so, in addition to that, she has to obviously reveal that she is one of seven, Sarah: Right. So they basically the the rest of the movie is Glenn Close and all of the agents that she sends to try and kill the rest of them. Because the fact that seven siblings have existed and have escaped her notice and not gone into cryogenic sleep, is really bad for her reputation. So rather than trying to like suddenly throw them into cryogenic sleep and make it okay, she just opts to send people to kill them. So, of course, when Monday disappears, then Tuesday tries to go in, but has no recollection of what's happened the day before because she wasn't there. And so she gets she's the first one to kind of get taken by CAB. And so, everything after that kind of trickles after that. So Mondays, you know, we talked about that--Tuesday comes after a Monday. So she said, "which means for example, you may need to smoke more." 'Cause Monday's always the hardest. She said Wednesday, "you're realizing you smoke too much and you have to work out." So again Wednesday, it's like our gym rats. On Thursday, she said "we reboot ourselves". So you find out it for this version of Thursday. She's almost kind of like the Butch femme. So she's always in black t-shirts or white t-shirts and skinny jeans and black combat boots and she's got the short pixie cut. So she's kind of our leading lady out of the seven, if you can really call it, that besides Monday, but she's the one that kind of leads the rest of the sisters in trying to find Monday and save everyone. So Thursday is the reboot day and then Friday. She said "Maybe we choose to study more". So again, Friday is our kind of tech nerd/geek nerd. And then Saturday, "Let's drink" and Sunday: "We choose to behave and go to church". So Sunday is actually the first one that dies. Sorry, SPOILER ALERT. But she also is the one that they talk about, that has to believe. She was always the believer, she always believed in better, she always believed in, you know, better hope for the future. And she's also always dressed in these kind of cardigans and sort of Sunday church dresses. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu And so again, very--on the surface--very perfect and hopeful in her dress and in her costume. So when we first see her in the first scene with the sisters, she's always in these like floral prints, which I really love too. And I think the costume designer actually, I think she was the only one in really a print, everyone else was in kind of more geometric blocks or, or just plain tees. So the fact that Sunday is always our very floral and kind of natural and organic prints, this idea that she's sort of the the hopeful one. And I think that's reflected in her costume. So Monday, again, you know, this was really the only other close up that I could find where we don't see her in the blue, because again, the rest of the movie, she's pretty much missing. And at the very end, we'll see a picture of her back in kind of like a version of the dress that she normally wears. But the way that they differentiated is the costume designer blocked off different parts of the costume, which I really loved. But again, she's she's always kind of in the same type of silhouette each time, even when she's at home. So always this idea of needing to look perfect, always being perfect. And she talks a lot about that. She's the one that's the oldest. So she always sets the example for everyone else. Sarah Timm Right. Jojo Siu This is another picture. And again, this is sort of the way that they differentiated, you know, Monday from Thursday later on, because Thursday also ends up in a dress very similar to this, but the different cut outs is how the costume designer was able to show difference. So, I think Thursday doesn't have the pink on top, it's just the the darker pink and fuchsia on the sides. Alright, so this is Tuesday. So again, kind of the very hippie dress, she's got a lot of off-the-shoulder kind of baggy sweaters, she's always wearing sort of the hippy skirts. It's a very boho look. And again, she always wears a ton of bracelets and a ton of rings. And her hair is always in two pigtails. And she's, again, the only one with red hair. Yeah, so this is just another kind of close-up picture of that soft draped sweater that she has. Okay, so Wednesday, again, is our workout girl, she's always in a black hoodie, and some sort of sports bra, and sweat pants. Most of her scenes are her jogging, or punching a punching bag in the apartment. And when she goes out, so this is after they found out that Tuesday has been taken. Tuesday's eye has been sent back to the house with... Sarah Timm Oh Jojo Siu ...agents to kill them. And so Wednesday is the first one who goes out on Wednesday and tries to escape in order to find out more information because this is when they find out that the co worker has some sort of blackmail on them. So she goes to try and find out what's happened. And of course, she's being chased around the city at this point. Because she knows that they're after her. A lot of agents have been sent after her to try and kill her. And so the other three sisters--it's Tuesday, Friday and Thursday--the tech nerd at home is basically helping her figure out where to go, how to escape all of this stuff. And she gets so close to escaping and she ends up obviously getting killed, but it's the saddest way to get killed. So all of it, of course is very athletic. She gets the most athletic time because you know, she's working out all the time. So she does the most punching and running. Sarah Timm You would think that if they have to make sure that they havethe same zits and stuff that one of them working out more than the others would be an issue. Jojo Siu Yeah, exactly. Sarah Timm Why does she have a bicep? Jojo Siu Yeah. The dress does hide a lot of their outfit. Sarah Timm I guess she's not in a midriff top when she goes to work. Jojo Siu Exactly. Most of the shape is hidden. But yeah, it's mostly face shape. You know, obviously after this scene, when she goes out on her day, she's kind of gone off the deep end. She's like, "I'm not even going to bother wearing the dress anymore", because she's got so gotten cut up at this point. They've somehow defeated the first round of agents. So her coming into this is just, "I just need to find out what's happened". And so she's kind of gone out and gone rogue a little bit. But at this point, they also know CAB realizes that there are seven of them and is trying to kill them. Sarah Timm Right. Jojo Siu So she's kind of the first one out there. So this is just some other running shots. But again, you can see she's just, you know, her athletic day, I guess, of her just running everywhere. And there's another one. Again, just kind of showing all the T-shirts and hoodies that she wears. Alright, so Thursday, again, very much the rebel. They show some flashback scenes of her when she is a child. And she's the first one that actually kind of messes up the system. And she talks a lot about that when she kind of confronts Monday at the very end. But there's a big scene where, as a child, she actually escapes. When it's someone else's day, she goes out andskateboards, and then comes back after the dad has realized she's gone missing. She's out there and everyone else has returned. And she comes back with her finger hanging off because she got into a skateboarding accident. And so of course, because her fingers cut, hanging off, the grandfather ends up having to cut all the other siblings fingers off. So there's this whole like, you know, this big scene just talking about the seriousness of like, Whatever happens to one of you has to happen to everybody. And she's always the one that's like, :I want to get out of the system. Why are we doing this? None of us are living a real life". Sarah Timm Right. Jojo Siu But she is also the one that ends up...I thought I had more pictures of her. Unfortunately, I don't. There were very few pictures of her, but again, she's always the one in black. A lot of tech gear. And when I say tech gear, I mean theater tech wear: black t-shirt, black pants, black combat boots. Sarah Timm like she's a stagehand. Jojo Siu Yeah, exactly. So then Friday is our--like I said--tech geek nerd. And she's always in these kind of oversized sweaters or oversized flannels, and everything is very hidden about her. And she's she basically is the tech geek that gets everyone, you know, where they need to go at the very end. And she and Friday do end up lasting kind of the longest. Until Thursday finally escapes. So sorry, Thursday is our Pixie girl. And then she finally, in order to let Thursday escape, she actually sacrifices herself at the very end, which is really sad. But she talks about how she needed this family. "I'm not like the rest of you. You guys are all independent, and you could do your own thing. But I never thrived without you. And like I wouldn't survive without you". So she decides to sacrifice herself instead. And takes out some of the CAB agents with her. And then we get to Saturday. Sarah Timm I love her hair! Jojo Siu So cute. So Saturday--She's always kind of a schmoozer. So whenever she's at work, she's the one that's really great at networking. She's really great at going to parties. They have this whole thing in the very beginning where she comes back and pukes in one of the buckets and so the guy at the front desk is like, "how do you do it? You were puking yesterday, and today, you look so fresh". And that was Sunday walking out. Sarah Timm Right. Jojo Siu And so of course, it was this idea that she also didn't share all the information with everybody. But you actually find out that even though she talks big about sleeping with everyone, she actually is a virgin, because you find out she runs into the guy that Monday is in love with and has been sleeping with for months. And she doesn't realize that he doesn't know it's not her or that it's not "Monday". So she tries to also find out information about what's happened to "Monday" by pretending to be "Monday" from within. So anyways, it's this whole thing where all the sisters sacrifice for one another, which I just thought was really interesting. But again, she's always in some kind of pink hoodie or really bright red kind of bra or bralette and some kind of jeans. This is one of the last scenes and you can see here, this is Thursday, and this is Monday. And so this is where you find out that Monday has basically betrayed all of them. Thursday is trying to save everyone and get her out. But you find out that, obviously, she has signed off this contract to basically protect her babies. Okay, and then just a couple other shots. You can kind of see here again Thursday, she's always in black. She's also got a black hoodie, very similar to Wednesday. And then you can see the yellow kind of oversized cardigan, and the really bland colors on Friday. And then the pink, and she's always wearing some sort of denim and the red bra for Saturday. And then I believe this was the last one that I pulled, but I wanted to pull the last little quick image of the grandpa and then one of the kids when they're doing the training at the very beginning. And I just wanted to pull this image because again when they got into the street--so this is the first day that he finally lets the first kid go out into the street. So prior to this, he hasn't let any of them leave the house. Sarah Timm Wow. Jojo Siu They've all been confined to the home to try and learn, you know, what their skills are. And also make sure that, you know, they understand the system; that they only can go out one day at a time. And it's funny to me that they're still wearing that dark blue blazer. This idea that they belong to the masses. And I think that was something that the costume designer talked about, too, you know, "I picked a color that kind of blended into the mass and didn't stand out because they needed to kind of disappear. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu And also the fact that Willem DaFoe was in grandpa's comfort wear. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu In all grays. So interestingly enough, when he's training them, there's quite a few shots with him in actually more vibrant colors. And at one point, he's actually wearing that yellow sweater that Friday's wearing, which I thought was really lovely. Sarah Timm That's cute. Jojo Siu But, you know, the rest of the time he's wearing these blacks and grays. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu And you don't really ever find out what's happening to him either. So it's a little sad, but you know, they don't really go further into that side story. I think that was the last of it. So again, not too many photos for this one. But I just, you know, how do you make seven different characters with the same actress? And how do you make them all look different enough and have their own character? I mean, Noomi is pretty amazing. She was basically acting against herself for most of it. And she mentioned that this was one of the hardest products she's ever done, because she didn't have other actors to work off of or to bounce ideas off. She had to create who that other actor was going to be. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu And that carried over, I think, into her conversations with a costume designer as well, right? Sarah Timm They probably use--lots of times when they're doing stuff like that they use like a body double, but it's not someone who's going to be acting and giving you the same energy that a fellow actor would give you. Jojo Siu Right, right. Yeah. And they did us a couple body doubles. But I think, you know, it definitely was like, "I had to figure out who all those characters were". And I think she said she actually secluded herself for five or six months, so that she could get into the headspace of who these characters were. She was like, "it was really hard because I couldn't talk to anybody for five or six months". And I was like... Sarah Timm Commitment. Jojo Siu "That's worse than quarantine! Sarah Timm I feel like we always hear about famous male actors who goes super method. Why aren't we talking about Noomi Rapace? Clearly she's... Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm Super method. She's committed. Wow. Jojo Siu But yeah, and you definitely see how different the little ticks are in each of her characters, even for this movie. So yes, I would highly suggest it. Again, the story plot--there's a lot of plot holes. So I think that's what a lot of critics have said about this movie. And again, it is very close to whatever the episode of "Black Mirror" was... Sarah Timm I was thinking it sounds like "Orphan Black". Jojo Siu Maybe that's what it is. Maybe they meant "Orphan Black". I could have...misquoted that. Sarah Timm "I've seen "Black Mirror", but it's been a long time since I've seen certain episodes. So it might be an older one that I don't remember. Jojo Siu Yeah, that's true. Sarah Timm Orphan Black is the one where Tatiana Maslany plays clones. Jojo Siu Oh, yes, then that's the one. Sorry, I misquoted that. So it's definitely "Orphan Black". But yeah, I know, they took it off with some other idea because that was one of the big criticisms that they got. They were like, "well, it's nothing new. And the storyline is kind of unfinished." Sarah Timm Interesting. Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm Interesting concept. Jojo Siu Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely one of those movies that I kind of stumbled across and then I was like pleasantly surprised. Sarah Timm Cool. Well, great job! Jojo Siu Thank you! Sarah Timm Okay, are we ready for me? This was a request--my movie that I'm covering. My dear friend Christie messaged us and requested this movie, I think, over Instagram. I'm covering "Tron: Legacy", which is a movie I hadn't seen since it came out. And I forgot how fun it is. It's very fun. So, a little bit of background. It's this is a Disney movie. So take with that what you will. It's directed by Joseph Kosinski. And this movie is his directorial debut, which blew my brains. I could not believe that this high budget and big of a movie was somebody's directorial debut. And I I did a little googling because I was like, How on earth did he get the job, then... Jojo Siu Yeah! Sarah Timm ...if he's never directed anything? so I found a New York TimesNew York Times article that says, and this is a direct quote, "it sounds corny, but it all started back in 2007, with one guy who believed in him--Shawn Bailey, a Disney producer, who was trying to figure out how to reinvent Tron. Mr. Bailey had heard through the Hollywood grapevine about a director of commercials, which is Joseph Kosinski, who had an unusual visual style." And the article kind of went into how this happens sometimes with really big studios; they'll give a big budget movie to somebody who has only done a few commercials. And some people think it's because a first time director will be easier to control by a big studio, you know. A bigger name will come in with an artistic vision and be like, "Well, I'm not conforming to your corporate Disney whatever. I'm going to do what I want." But then also, like, the more optimistic view of that is, it doesn't matter, your resume if you have the right vision and the right, you know, artistic gumption to go and get it. But I will say that, like, I don't think that if he This might sound cynical, but I think that like, especially in 2010, when this movie came out, I don't think if he were non white, and not a man that he would have gotten this big of a chance. Jojo Siu Agreed. Sad, but true. Sarah Timm Yeah. When I've heard of that kind of thing happening, where it's like, oh, my god, he's only directed five music videos. And they gave him a superhero movies indirect like it's usually a white man that they're talking about, unfortunately. So yeah, that was an interesting thing to learn. Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm Yeah. The costumes were co-designed. So two people--Christine...Christine, Bieselin Clark. I'm just gonna say that's how you pronounce that, who has worked on "Star Trek Picard", "Maze Runner" and "Ender's Game". And then the other designer is Michael Wilkinson, whose name you might recognize because he did "Jingle Jangle". Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm So he's done a lot of Zack Snyder's like "Justice League" franchise movies, "Aladdin", "300" and "Garden State". Jojo Siu "Oh Garden State". I haven't seen that movie in so long. Sarah Timm That's a good one. So yeah, interesting. I think it kind of makes sense that like two people do the costumes. This is it's, it seems like a very collaborative design these costumes, because like, the visual style of the movie is so distinct that like the production design, and the costume design, and the special effects are all kind of hand-in-hand. So it's a real team effort. It seems just, that's just my view of it. So let's begin. This is... Yay! ...the beginning of the movie. Oh, I will say I have not seen the first "Tron". So Neither have I. So one of my first notes was, "I need someone to explain to me what the grid is, because I still don't quite really know." I don't know. Jojo Siu I am probably just as lost as you are. So I don't know that I'd be much help. Sarah Timm It's a virtual reality space. That's what I've, that's as far as I got. It's like a computer--digitized--but it's like a world you can enter, but it's in the computer. Jojo Siu That was a very good explanation, Sarah. Sarah Timm Thanks so much. So this is the opening. Basically, the basic plot is: Jeff Bridges who's in the first "Tron" was the founder of this, sort of, tech company. But he went missing in 1989. And his son is now technically the head of the company, but isn't involved at all, I think, and he's kind of like a rebel guy, he doesn't care about the company. And it seems like these people--the suits--are interested in making money and exploiting the technology. Whereas Jeff Bridges--his character, Flynn--was interested in open source software and making it available for everybody and sharing it. So that's kind of where we come in, is in this board meeting, where they're gonna release this program, I don't know, whatever computer thing. Jojo Siu We are so not sci-fi, tech nerds, Sarah Timm Computer thing, great. Jojo Siu Whatever that is. Sarah Timm So I this boardroom scene is interesting to me, because they're all wearing the same color, which is sort of like a slate gray, black. And it's funny to me, because, you would think that we would really want to differentiate this world--the real world--from the grid that we enter later, but the color scheme is kind of the same, which is kind of funny. And interesting that the corporate world doesn't look that different from the sci-fi computer world. I didn't realize that I would sound so dumb describing this movie. Jojo Siu It's okay, you and me both. I was like, I can't help you with any of those technology terms. Sarah Timm It doesn't really matter to my understanding, like costumes, I think, right? I don't feel too bad about it. Okay, so this is actually Killian Murphy who I was like, Killian Murphy's in this movie? Jojo Siu Jojo: I almost didn't recognize him. Sarah Timm Apparently he's uncredited, this is an uncredited cameo appearance. Yeah! Jojo Siu Uncredited? Sarah Timm I know Jojo Siu Did HE put that in or did someone else? Sarah Timm Did he wander by the set one day? How did this come about? He was just like walking by in the scene and said "Okay, I'll be that dude." But this look is interesting because he looks different from everybody else because he's like the young, hotshot guy. And this already looks very dated to me, even though it's only 10 years old, and I think it's the hair. Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm It's very floppy Jojo Siu I was gonna say it's that very wind swept look for guys Sarah Timm Yeah. That sort of Justin Bieber, Zac Efron, late 2000s...*hand motion* Jojo Siu I love how THIS is, ...This is the hands motion Hand motion over the forehead to portray the bangs. Sarah Timm Yeah. And you can tell he's so cool because he's not wearing a blazer, unlike everyone else. He's so cool. Jojo Siu Less layers, equals cool. Sarah Timm My arms are out so I'm cool. Moving on. So, this is Alan and apparently he's in the first "Tron" as well. So he was like Flynn's right hand man, kind of guy. And he comes to Sam the son with his pager and he's like "I got a page from your dad". And it's like, what? First of all, you got a page in 2010? Okay. And I like his look because he's bringing with him sort of the old school, into the modern day, sort of like a rumpled trench coat, almost film noir because his collars up a little bit, Detective-y sort of land he brings an air of mystery right? Because he's like, "I got a page from your dad who's been missing since 1989. You should go to the arcade to see where the signal's coming from or whatever. So he basically gets the plot going, and I like that the person with the mystery looks like a Noir detective. I think that's kind of a fun little touch. Jojo Siu Yeah it was a lot of Noir in this movie, and I don't think I thought about that until you said that. Sarah Timm I think, yeah, ...is sci fi noir a thing because that could be Jojo Siu ...It could be, because they definitely bring in elements of that kind of Noir,like 1930s. I think of like the 1930s Film Noir. But yeah, I definitely feel like I don't know that I realized that until I was looking at this picture again. I was like "oh yeah!" Sarah Timm I think he is the most Noir out of the characters for sure. Jojo Siu Trench coat definitely says that, Sarah Timm Yes, yes. And I also like how he's less corporate, you know, but he's sort of--I don't know what color exactly this trench coat is; it looks brown in this picture, I'm not sure if it is--He looks a little bit earthier, you know, so he's not the corporate greed machine that everybody else at the company is. He's still got the original vision in his heart. Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm so this is Sam, the son, before he goes into the grid. This is his everyday look. And I, I like it. I think it's a little bit generic, it's a little bit like Disney version of a bad boy. Which makes sense because it's a Disney movie. Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm I wrote in my notes that I think if this movie was made today this outfit would have more personality than it does in this. I like the aging of the jacket, maybe it was his dad's, you know. It's old, but otherwise, he's just kind of wearing jeans and a hoodie and I feel like he could have something, you know, a little bit of pattern. Jojo Siu Yeah Sarah Timm ...little bit more texture to kind of, because I really don't know anything about him still after watching. Jojo Siu Right Sarah Timm he doesn't have that much of a personality to speak of. So, I think he... Jojo Siu Does he wear this the whole time? Sarah Timm He wears it for the whole opening scene, but once it gets into the grid they put him into a light suit. Jojo Siu Right, right. Okay. Sarah Timm So this is all we get to see of like his own wardrobe. So Jojo Siu yeah, Sarah Timm This is it? And later in this shot, he's in the front right here. It's blurry, but he's just wearing a gray t shirt and I'm like, Jojo Siu very indistinct Sarah Timm You couldn't at least do like what transformers did and Shia LaBeouf was wearing like a "Strokes" t-shirt. Like it couldn't even be like a Rolling Stones t-shirt or something. It had to just be a solid gray--that makes me sad. Jojo Siu I wonder how much of this was budget too though, although it's...you know, it's Disney, so I don't really know. Because I know sometimes with other brand names, you have to be really careful that you're not stuck with a copyright but it's Disney. So you think they'd have a lot more budget Sarah Timm A stripe? or a Plaid? Jojo Siu Yeah, some kind of pattern. Sarah Timm A color? I don't know, maybe it's to communic-I mean, he's supposed to be like the rebel though, so hhe shouldn't fit in with the nondescript corporate-ness and he lives in this cool, under the bridge, apartment thing. So I think he could be cooler, his outfit could be cooler. That's all. Okay, so here we are in the grid. Welcome, Jojo Siu So different. Sarah Timm So this is him. He basically enters the grid by accident and then just kind of gets ferried along to different places and things happen to him and he's not he has no agency things are justbeing done to him. So this is them getting him ready to compete in some sort of games against other things on the light cycles and stuff. These characters--these female characters are called "sirens", which I was like, of course they are. Sure, Jojo Siu yeah. Sarah Timm And they basically are in charge of outfitting him for, for the games, and I feel a bit conflicted about the female characters in this movie, because they seem pretty over-sexualized in their appearance. But I had to remind myself that like this digital world was made by a man in the 80s, technically. So like... Jojo Siu Right Sarah Timm ...if it's all this one guy his vision, and he's just a straight dude in the 80s Of course he's like "well, the girls and it all have to be super sexy, you know" Jojo Siu Right, right. Sarah Timm I don't know, I don't I'm still not sure how I feel about it because I was just like, why? what? You know, you can kind of see on the right here, this little shell thing. They basically come out of these little holes in the wall. And this little door closes over them and theyhibernate, until it's time again, and the shell that closes over them, has boobs on it, it's like molded to look like a lady's body. Jojo Siu Yeah Sarah Timm So it's things like that was like did we have to do that I don't think we did. Jojo Siu That part was unnecessary. Sarah Timm And even their, their outfits so they're unitard, you can see on this second-from-the-right girl. It has the outline of almost bikini underwear, and none of the men's costumes have an outline. Jojo Siu Right, right. Sarah Timm So it's...And then they're wearing these high heels and it's like why would that be a thing? Why do they need high heels? Is it because Flynn designed this world and was like, "the gotta be hot." I don't know. Jojo Siu Yeah, yeah, exactly. The 80s. Sarah Timm Yeah I mean it's is it like is it supposed to be like the 80s vision of a future and if so then yeah it makes sense. Jojo Siu Right. Sarah Timm And I have a shot of the high heeled too, which is very interesting--has a bar thing on it. Jojo Siu Yeah, it's crazy because I think on the one on the right it looks shorter, and then on the one on the left, it looks taller, and I don't understand. Yeah, 'cause her... yeah her heels are shorter! Sarah Timm Also hers looks like it doesn't have the... Jojo Siu Doesn't have the bar. Sarah Timm It doesn't look like the same girl... Jojo Siu Yeah, Sarah Timm That's weird. Maybe she was taller than the other one? Maybe they had to make them all the same height. And they were like nobody... Jojo Siu Oh yeah. Like at least in the image, they needed to look the same height. Sarah Timm Yeah, because I think they're supposed to be...you know, they're digitized, they're not real humans. They're digitized right programs or whatever they're called. So... Jojo Siu right, Sarah Timm they had to be the same. But, yeah, maybe that was to make them all the same height. Because that girl comes back later, she has a speaking role. Jojo Siu Oh, okay. Sarah Timm I don't know. Yeah. Interesting. Jojo Siu Interesting. Sarah Timm So here's Sam and his life suit, I have a couple shots of it. It's cool. These, I think that these costumes are very successful these light suits. It doesn't look new to us now, but I remember in 2010 thinking like how cool and futuristic it looked. Jojo Siu Yeah, I remember that too. Sarah Timm And I have some information about how they were made because I was like... Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm Is the light, practical? And the answer is yes! Which blew my mind! Jojo Siu So cool! Sarah Timm All the light on all the costumes is practical. It's real; it's not added in CG. Yeah, Jojo Siu I love that it's like. Sarah Timm So I watched... Jojo Siu Was it like E-L wire? Sarah Timm Well I'll read to you! I watched some YouTube videos and I'll link the YouTube video that I watched because it's really interesting to see them sort of like building them, they had a couple shots of their shop. So, this is from Wikipedia, "the skin-tight suits are reminiscent of the outfits worn by the actors in the original film. They designed the lighting costumes, which used electro-luminescent lamps, derived from a flexible polymer film, and featured hexagonal patterns, the lights pass through the suit via light tape, says something about lamination and phosphorus I don't understand. To make it a different color, they put different colors of vinyl. Prior to lamination, so apparently... this kind of...I thought about this too was, nowadays you can get fiber optic fabric and lights can basically be fabric now, which is amazing. But in 2010, flexible light that you could use in costumes was a really new idea, so they basically....it was a very new invention and they had to kind of just like figure it out as they went along, because they didn't Jojo Siu Yeah Sarah Timm they were talking in this behind the scenes thing about how they didn't know how they would make flexible lights and I was like, don't they make strips that you can put on whatever? And then I was like... Jojo Siu Yeah I was gonna say, LED tape is very available now. Sarah Timm Yeah, so that must be, you know like within the last 10 years that that has been so common and easy to get. So, it was just fascinating to me I was just thinking this is great! Jojo Siu Leave it up to Disney to be the first ones to figure it out though! Sarah Timm right. So, these suits were kind of like a collaboration between the special effects department and the costuming department, because, the shell part, especially the torsos, they're made out of foam latex, so they're basically sculpted. If you've ever watched "Face Off" the special effects makeup show where they sculpt, and then they mold foam latex, it's basically like that, where you pour it into a mold and peel it out and it's one piece, you know, and then they applied the lights and stuff, and then they would have fabric Jojo Siu Wow Sarah Timm ...suits underneath. I know can you believe? Jojo Siu So many layers! Sarah Timm Yes! Jojo Siu It's why you gotta have a big budget for this movie! Sarah Timm Good segue, because the blonde lady from that siren scene, who talks about her. Her character's name is Gem. She said, it showed her sort of getting dressed and she said that there was, they're basically wearing four layers, so their first layer is foundation garments so the women would be in sort of like a waist cincher and you know Spanx and stuff to hold you in. And then there was a, just a body suit over that. And then there was the electronics layer, and then there was sort of like a latex-y outer layer that felt sort of like balloon rubber, apparently on hers, and the sirens. Jojo Siu So....they're giant....condoms? Sarah Timm Well, it showed what behind-the-scenes and one of them was getting wiped down. Somebody was shining it with a cloth. Jojo Siu Oh gosh, that just sounds so crazy. I mean these look phenomenal, they don't look like they're wearing four layers of clothing, right. I can't imagine what that feels like. Sarah Timm I mean Beyonce literally wears three layers of tights doesn't she? So, you do you have to. Jojo Siu True, true. Sarah Timm So yeah! Jojo Siu That's funny. Sarah Timm I mean, it literally blew my mind to watch that. I would encourage everybody to watch the video. And the other important thing is that this is a digital world, so the clothes don't exist in a real way so they had to think about what clothes would look like if they weren't made like clothes. How does...What do clothes look like if they haven't been sewn together? If they've just been Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm Created out of... Just been created out of pixels. Pixels...Yeah, so they tried to hide seams. There was no visible closures, no buttons and zippers, stuff like that, because, as you can see in the picture with the sirens it just materializes on to him, you know. He doesn't need to step into it, in the movie. Just...It's super fascinating. I learned a lot, Jojo Siu So cool. Sarah Timm ...On this, Jojo Siu I mean this is why we all thought it was so exciting when we saw this movie because it was just, it really was nothing we had ever seen. Sarah Timm Yes, yeah. Jojo Siu So yeah, it's pretty cool. Sarah Timm Yeah, I think cynically I was like well it's all probably CG, you know. And then I watched it and I was, I felt, you know, I felt so much excitement and wonder, like it wasn't just digital. So, moving on. Jojo Siu Sorry I side-tracked us. Sarah Timm This is "Clue". Yeah Clue, which is like a version of Jeff Bridges, but it's like a computer that just looks like him and I pulled this because I hate the young face that they did. It.... Even now... Jojo Siu It's sooo creepy. Sarah Timm Yes, it looks like a SIM and even now, when they do the aging down digitally, I've never seen that and been like, "well that's convincing and not creepy". It's ALWAYS creepy to me. So I pulled that just so everybody else can be creeped out as well together. I love this outfit, it's very Kylo Ren, Darth Vader, but Tron version it's like a cool asymmetrical cloak with...and he has yellow light, and I think that the colors of light had something to do with their ranks, you know. I didn't, super look into what was what. But you know, the regular programs have just white and then he and his right-hand man over here kind of have different colors. And then I got this of it on display, so that we can kind of see more what it looks like. Jojo Siu Yeah, I was curious was the other side of that jacket looked like. Sarah Timm Yeah, and it's funny because it looks... Jojo Siu It's so crazy it looks like paper. Sarah Timm I know it looks a little bit cheesy just, you know, it looks like masking tape or something. Jojo Siu Right, Sarah Timm but in the in the movie, it looks so rad, Jojo Siu so crazy. Sarah Timm Yeah, I want to wear one. Jojo Siu I know. Disney can you rent out some of your Tron outfits so that we can just have a dress up day? Sarah Timm Can I borrow it um....real quick, real quick, just like five minutes. Jojo Siu I just need like a selfie andthen and then I'll be good. Sarah Timm Did I read anything else I don't think I did. I just wrote he looks very evil. There's something about a long black coat that looks pretty evil. So this is Cora played by Olivia Wilde. Jojo Siu She's so pretty. Sarah Timm She's one of like, you know, five women that we see. Those are my feelings on that. She's one of two who speaks. Jojo Siu Let's pause and hesitate... for a moment of silence, Sarah Timm and I feel kind of the same about her as I do about the sexy siren girls, which is like...Yes, her outfit looks really good--she looks great--but did it have to be...you would think in a future world where gender doesn't really matter that outfits between men and women would look more similar, but like I said, if Flynn invented it, and he was a straight man and he wants to see sexy women then the women look sexy. So, here's the classic shot of her on the weird couch thing. And of course she's in a high heel. She has, you know what, what else do we expect? And then she has a cold shoulder and nobody else has a shoulder cut out. So I thought that was interesting. Jojo Siu Yeah, some differences. Sarah Timm I like her hair a lot, too. Jojo Siu I like the asymmetrical being. Sarah Timm Yeah, I think that haircut is really cute. And interestingly, she and Gem--the other woman--both wear really heavy, black eye makeup. And this is another thing, where if they made a "Tron" today, I think more of the men would be in makeup too, 'cause I think that today we're more free and open with gender expression in a way where, I think if we were inventing a cool sci-fi world where there was cool makeup, it would be on all genders of people, not just women. Jojo Siu It makes me think of...well, just because you were saying that, I was thinking of Aqua Man, because, he wears so much eye make-up. Sarah Timm I've heard that that's a fun sort of like campy movie. Jojo Siu It is...it...the storyline is like, whatever. I wouldn't watch it from that but, he's definitely got some dark eye makeup. It's very Egyptian-looking almost, 'cause he's got like the Kohl, you know, kind of outline of the eye. Sarah Timm Well Jason Momoa--him in a smoky eye , I'll take that all day long. Jojo Siu Yeah, it looks very good on him. But yeah, it made me think of that when you said, it's more acceptable across genders, Sarah Timm Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm going to talk about Michael Sheen...well....no...in a second. When he wears makeup, but h e's also sort of like a flamboyant character so it's sort of, she was in this movie. Yeah, he's really good too. So this is Gem, the siren from before. And she kind of comes along to sort of help him get to his next destination or whatever and talk to the people he needs to talk to, to help his dad escape. Because he does find his dad, inside the grid. I feel like the details of the plot are not that important. We, you know Jojo Siu I don't remember much of this plot from this movie. Sarah Timm The plot is we're in the grid and we got to get out. That's basically it. Jojo Siu Yep. Sarah Timm I love. So where...did I pull--Yes. So this is how we see her approaching. She has this really cool clear umbrella. And this feels like a very direct "Blade Runner" reference for me, which I have not seen, but I know that they have light-up umbrellas in it. I know that It's been a very long time. We watched Blade Runner, at school. And I haven't seen the new one. But the old one messed me up so bad that I was like I don't know if I want to see the new one. It's just one of those--it's like--I don't know you feel very unsettled but in like a different way than a horror movie, you know what I mean. But yes, that was one of those movies that I walked out of that room being like, "I feel like my soul has been sucked from my body" Wow! I've seen some like feminist critique of it so it hasn't made me super excited to watch it just because I like watching feminist movies but I feel like as a reference point, it's kind of an important thing to know, you know to be familiar with. Jojo Siu yeah, there's a lot of film references that go back to Blade Runner. Yeah, which is why it was such a big deal, but yeah, it... Sarah Timm right Jojo Siu it makes you very sad at the very end. Sarah Timm I believe it. Jojo Siu 'Cause...everything is just sad in that movie. Sarah Timm Yeah, we'll get around to it eventually. Yeah so... Jojo Siu Maybe we'll make a movie night at that one. Sarah Timm That coud be fun! And then we can cover it... Jojo Siu If I watched it with someone else, maybe I would have like a redeeming something or other for that movie. Sarah Timm It would be one to watch it together as an activity for the podcast and then think about it. Jojo Siu yeah, absolutely. Sarah Timm Imagine. Jojo Siu Future podcast episode. Sarah Timm Future plans. Yeah so that that's...even though I haven't seen it, I know about the umbrella and the rain and Blade Runner so that feels like a little nod, a little homage. Yeah. And then she has this clear sort of rainbow thing which I thought was interesting, it's fun to see the play of light coming through it. And then there's her with her little bikini outline on her unitard Jojo Siu Of course. Sarah Timm Yeah. This is Michael Sheen. Jojo Siu Yes, I forgot about that. Now I remember his character. Sarah Timm Yeah, so his character name is Zeus, and he's kind of...He's a bad guy. He ends up being a bad guy, but at first we don't know he's a bad guy and he's kind of just at this party, at this sort of nightclub thing, where there's a Daft Punk cameo--very fun because they did the soundtrack--and he said that his character is sort of inspired by the MC from cabaret, or Dr Frankenfurter Jojo Siu I can see that. Sarah Timm Yeah, a little bit David Bowie, sort of flamboyant glam rock, sort of, circus-y guy, and I like how his outfit is obviously in the same world as everybody else's, but it's not exactly the same. He's got a unitard, but it's not as skin tight as everybody else's. It kind of looks more like what we know of as a tail coat. Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm And see, like right there, it's got...It does have tails and then he's sort of wearing a flair. And a bit of a heel too, which is fun. Jojo Siu It's a little 1970s. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu But in.... Sarah Timm A little Ziggy Stardust, action. Jojo Siu Tech white. Sarah Timm Yeah. So I thought that was cool and apparently he could not really sit in his costume, which is interesting to me because it doesn't look like it's made out of something he couldn't sit in. Jojo Siu Skin tight. Sarah Timm But what do I know. Jojo Siu Right. Sarah Timm And then he has this lightup cane, which is really fun. It's, you can see right here, it's clear, and then it lights up and then he shoots lasers with it, which is kind of cool. So then this is a shot of his face, so you can see his got these crazy contacts and makeup and then, you know everybody is really pale, because there's a whole plot point with Cora where she's like, "what does the sun look like," you know, "I want to see the sun." Right, so they're all pale, Jojo Siu They don't know what it looks like. Sarah Timm They dont' know what the sun is. And then, this is my last costume I want to talk about. This is Flynn. So, I didn't talk about him much because I had to kind of edit myself down, I had too many pictures, but the costume designer said that he is more organic, whereas he's against this very tech non-organic backdrop. Everybody else looks very sci-fi and futuristic, and he looks a little bit earthier, and they said, "Eastern influence" I think and I can tell, kind of, because in this shot, this garment scene looks Asian, so that's interesting. Jojo Siu The double layering of the crossed...cross-body robe as well. Sarah Timm Yeah, but I love this cloak. So this cloak is just kind of a hooded cloak, but it has this facing of the light strip. So a facing is on the inside for those who don't know, it's sort of like this strip of fabric that folds to the inside of your garment. So here's a shot of just you know, with the hood so when he has his hood up, it just lights his face and I just think it's so freakin cool. I want one. Jojo Siu I feel like...there was a project that I wanted to do way back when, where I wanted a hood with just the inside lit up. Oh it was for "Into the Woods". Sarah Timm Oh. Jojo Siu I was trying to create a hood for for my witch that just had lights on the inside, and I wasn't even thinking about this, but now that I think about it I was like, "oh, maybe that's what I got the inspiration from." Sarah Timm I mean, it's a new idea, but it's not. I really love Disneyland parades, and I love when a light for the actor's face is incorporated into their costume so if it's a nighttime parade like the "Electrical Parade", or "Paint the night", the fairies will have a little antenna, and then the antenna have tiny little spotlights so that you can see the performers face at night. I love something like that that is very...it's practical. It has a function, but it's also really cool looking. Jojo Siu Yeah, that's like intentional, they make it look like it's part of it. Sarah Timm Yeah, it's part of the costume but it also serves a purpose and it just looks really rad, so it's like, ding ding ding you got all the things you need. Jojo Siu Yep! Exactly. Sarah Timm And then this coat has sort of a split. It has different panels and all of them are sort of outlined in it, so when he swishes around, you can see the light fans out, and it just looks really rad. Jojo Siu That part is really cool. I mean, the hood too, is very cool, but I like that he's got all the, all the edges kind of lit up. Sarah Timm I saw it and I was just like, *gasp! Jojo Siu So cool! Sarah Timm Let's see. Did I say anything else about...I think I pretty much covered everything. Yeah, I did. It was fun to watch this movie and like I said the plot: I didn't really pay super attention to it and I was just like "okay we're in the grid, we got to get out of the grid, I'll just look now at the costumes. It's a fun, you know sci-fi adventure sort of movie and that tidbit about the light on all the costumes being practical really made me have a new respect for it. Jojo Siu Yeah, for sure. It shows you a lot, I mean it's, it's different. It doesn't mean that CGI isn't also a lot of work but it's, it's different when you know that it's actually working on the costume, built into the process, as opposed to an after effect. Sarah Timm Yes, and I respect CGI artists so much. I saw this whole Twitter thread recently about how so many directors nowadays are using it as a point of pride to use less CG and act like they're not using CG, where in reality like CG can be used for anything from getting rid of pit stains, to fixing the color or something so acting like movies don't have CG when they do is kind of insulting to the artists who spend hours doing their work. So, I do respect CGI artists and obviously this movie has a ton of that in it. Jojo Siu Right. Sarah Timm But it is really exciting to know that there were other art types of artists who got to innovate and collaborate on this sort of new technology that ended up being used for the movie. Jojo Siu Yeah! Super exciting, and we should celebrate all that! Sarah Timm Yes, yeah, I mean everybody's role in the movie is really important, you know, down to the down to the grips and the PA's and stuff. Jojo Siu Absolutely! Sarah Timm That's the beauty of entertainment, is it really is always a group effort. Jojo Siu Yep, very true. Sarah Timm Yeah, so that's "Tron Legacy". Jojo Siu Yay! So exciting! We picked some good Sci-fi ones. Sarah Timm Yeah, this...this was a fun one! I liked both of these movies that we covered, Jojo Siu I have to rewatch this movie again it's been a while since I've seen it. Sarah Timm I was shook to find out that it is not on Disney plus, and the first one... Jojo Siu Really! Sarah Timm is, and then some animated Tron thing is also on there, and I was like "Excuse me! What?" Jojo Siu Theyr'e still under Disney right? Sarah Timm Yeah, so I watched it with a method I will not discuss. I did watch it. That's just being real there. Jojo Siu Thanks Sarah. Sarah Timm But it's not on Disney plus. I mean, at least it wasn't when I looked. Jojo Siu Yeah. Sarah Timm You know, a few days ago, Jojo Siu Well, maybe someone will hear this podcast and put it on. Sarah Timm Disney plus if you're listening, put it back. Jojo Siu Give us back our Tron Legacy. Sarah Timm People need to see it and look at the costumes! Jojo Siu All right, thank you so much, Sarah. That was so fun. Sarah Timm Thank you Jojo. Jojo Siu I'm glad we covered some fun movies today. Sarah Timm Yeah. Jojo Siu You know, even with the horror movie. Sarah Timm As always, get in touch. Let us know if you agree or disagree with us. Give us feedback, or requests: movies or TV shows or theater pieces, or even something else. I don't know SNL sketches, music videos, anything you Jojo Siu Yeah Sarah Timm want us to talk about, let us know. I know eventually we'll cover some non-traditional things I'm excited. Hopefully we'll have time, yeah, to record another bonus episode soon. And maybe Jojo Siu Yeah, definitely. Sarah Timm we can do a smaller something, because I definitely would love the opportunity to talk about BTS. Jojo Siu Always! Always, Sarah, I expected nothing less. Sarah Timm Thank you so much. Jojo Siu Oh yes. Yeah, please, keep writing us and keep reviewing us and keep spreading the word to your friends, we are nothing without our listeners. So we love having people chime in and give us comments and notes and just tell us more information because we're always learning. Sarah Timm Oh yeah, that's that's the whole, the fun part of this and also I say this to my friends and people who listen all the time. I'm like, I think we have something really good, and there is an audience for this, we just need to find them. So if you have people in your life who you think would enjoy this podcast, please share it with them. Jojo Siu Yes. Sarah Timm Get us into their ear holes. We would really appreciate it. Jojo Siu Absolutely. Thanks again, and we look forward to talking with you guys in two weeks. Sarah Timm Yep, see you then. Bye. Jojo Siu Bye. Sarah Timm Oh, I guess I can stop sharing my screen.

[OUTRO]

Jojo:

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah:

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 14: Midsommar & Crimson Peak

Please consult these Instagram slideshows for accompanying images: Midsommar Crimson Peak

Both: Welcome to The Costume Plot!

Jojo: I'm Jojo Siu

Sarah: and I'm Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers! Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo: we hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo: hello and welcome!

Sarah: welcome back!

Jojo: It feels like it's been forever.

Sarah: I know!

Jojo: every time.

Sarah: that's okay, I was listening to a podcast today and they were like, "we never know what to do in the intro!" so I think it's pretty common that people just... it's a little bit awkward just to start talking.

Jojo: socially awkward for the first five minutes.

Sarah: exactly. Well... welcome to The Costume Plot, we're glad you're here.

Jojo: Yay!

Sarah: We have a quick plug at the top, um, Jojo and I, just yesterday we were just on our friends' podcast. Tim and Ashley Espinosa. It's called Breaking the Fourth Wall...

Jojo: Yeah!

Sarah: ... and we had a really lovely conversation with them about theater, about design, our jobs, what we want to see change in the world of theater, you know... what we love about it, that kind of thing. So go check it out!

Jojo: Yeah there'll be some--there'll be some plugs and things to kind of get you guys to know where to go. To listen to our little interview.

Sarah: yeah. I'll put the link in the description of the episode and then there's also going to be a post in our instagram feed like, you know, showing you where to go. So yeah, it was really really fun and I'm excited to listen to their podcast, actually.

Jojo: Yeah!

Sarah: Because the conversation was so great that I want to keep listening so...

Jojo: they've got some pretty good interviews. And apparently we were their first designers on their podcast!

Sarah: Yeah!

Jojo: So that's really exciting. But yeah, shout out to other podcasts, and really we love to support other podcasts that are talking about theater as well!

Sarah: Totally.

Jojo: So, really exciting. Great! So you want to get into our topic, for our theme for this week, Sarah?

Sarah: so today's theme is has been a little bit exciting for us because, um... it's horror and neither of us watch a lot of horror. So it was a bit of an adventure for both of us.

Jojo: to say the least.

Sarah: I'm a scaredy cat. I'll speak for myself, I don't watch a lot of horror 'cause I'm scared.

Jojo: oh me too, me too!

Sarah: So yeah, I'm going first and my movie is Midsommar.

Jojo: oh, so scary.

Sarah: it was SO scary, I was ... shook.

Jojo: for those of you who are also not horror movie watchers, I tried to watch 10 minutes of this movie and then like, very promptly had to just find the Wikipedia explanation and promptly decided that I wasn't going to watch the rest of it. So Sarah is very brave for taking one for the team.

Sarah: I am VERY brave. I went in blind. I was like, "you know what? I'm not going to read any plot synopsis." I had no idea what it was about. I knew it was like, culty, and that's about it.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: I knew Florence Pugh's in it, I really like her.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: ...and I was SO scared. [both laugh] So I'll just dive in, uhhh... let me open my notes and THEN dive in.

Jojo: I'm already scared! [both laugh] This first image.

Sarah: I'm not going to jump scare you, Jojo!

Jojo: I know. [laughs] Thank goodness.

Sarah: so this movie, Midsommar, came out in 2019, directed by Ari Astor. Also written by Ari... I think he's a boy, written by him. He is known for Hereditary, which is another horror movie that made a big splash when it came out. Which I will not be watching, I'll just say that. [laughs] I'm sure it's great.

Jojo: I didn't even hear about it, so I mean...

Sarah: the costumes are by Andrea Flesch, who you might know as the designer of Collette, which was a Keira Knightley movie that came out a few years back. And then she's- she has had a lot of- she's been working a lot, but not a lot of titles I recognized. But this is obviously like— this is a really good costume movie. So I'm sure she'll be... we'll be seeing more of her. I think she's Hungarian. She lives in Budapest, I think. And this movie won for best costume design at the Fright Meter Awards, which I think is a horror awards thing.

Jojo: sounds like it.

Sarah: yeah, Fright Meter sounds, yeah... it sounds like horror. So the setting is modern day. And we start in maybe New York? It's never said, but it looks kind of New York-y. You know, young millennial people, very hip. I always assume that they're in New York. [laughs] And then we go to a remote commune in Sweden. And so the basic premise-- I'll just do a quick run down of the plot--is that Florence Pugh's character Dani and her boyfriend are in a really tenuous, like... crappy relationship. Where he wanted to break up with her and didn't. And then she goes through this horrible personal tragedy where all of her family dies. By the way, this movie is very rated R. So I'm not going to go into a ton of detail because our podcast is not rated R! [both laugh]

Jojo: yes!

Sarah: yeah, so then he can't break up with her because she's going through this. And then his friends are in grad school and they're gonna write... one of them, played by William Jackson Harper, who we love from The Good Place. Chidi on The Good Place. Is writing his thesis on mid-summer traditions in Europe. So they're gonna go to this commune that their Swedish friend grew up on to see their mid-summer traditions. So that's where we go. And then, uh... horrible things ensue. Lots of death.

Jojo: so many horrible things!

Sarah: lots of gore. A lot of- it's been a long time since I watched a horror movie, and really felt the the build-up of the tension and the unease that they build. It was like, I felt unsettled for most of it. [laughs] Okay, so that's basically the plot and like, I'm not gonna give away a ton of stuff because, as I said, it's super rated R and I don't need to describe what happens. I think if you've seen it, you know, and if you don't like gore you won't like it. Uh... yeah.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: okay so let's start with Dani. This is kind of, um... this is after she's already had her horrible family, like... trauma. Tragedy. So she starts the movie in very drapey neutrals. Everything looks really soft. I think she's a student, so it's all kind of basic. It all looks... like, it doesn't look cheap, you know? She doesn't look poor, but it's... this is kind of dark, but that's- that's kind of where we find her. And then quickly we go to Sweden. And this is her and the group of guys, the American people.

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: And then the guy in the blue shirt in the middle, the light blue shirt, is the Swedish friend. So I found this really interesting, that like... how they look as a group together, nobody's wearing pattern at all? It's all just solid colors, like really soft muted t-shirts.

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: Which is, I think, unusual. Like, when you have a group of American people, usually somebody's gonna be wearing some sort of plaid or a stripe, right? A logo.

Jojo: Right, right.

Sarah: So that was an interesting choice, I thought. Here's a front view of her outfit. She wears a lot of these cuffed pants. And they look like they might be linen, which makes sense because it's summer, so it's probably hot.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: so then this contrasts with the people that they meet in the commune, which is called... Hårga.

Jojo: [laughs]

Sarah: I'm excellent at Swedish, as you can tell! [both laugh]

Jojo: I would not be able to help you, Sarah!

Sarah: so we get to the cult. And classic cult, everybody's wearing white.

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: I will say, this is not... this is gonna be a little different from our usual coverage, because there's not a lot of specific costumes that I want to call out. It's kind of just like, overall themes, and you know... because everybody in the cult is pretty much dressed the same. So I'll have the opportunity later to give some information that I got from articles with Andrea Flesch. Just like, how— her process and stuff.

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: So yeah, it feels, um... folky? You know, apparently this movie, the genre is technically folk horror. That's what I learned.

Jojo: I didn't even know that that was a category! [laughs]

Sarah: apparently it is. It's possible that Midsommar invented it.

Jojo: right, right. [laughs]

Sarah: It's also like, everything happens in the daylight? Which is so unusual for a horror movie. Everything is very brightly lit.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: you know usually horror is all about the, what's dark, around the corner.

Jojo: that's almost more terrifying.

Sarah: yeah!

Jojo: they're hidden in plain sight.

Sarah: yeah. So basically, their midsummer tradition is like a seven day feast? Like a feast every day. So the designer started everybody off in mostly all white, and then as the movie goes on, brings in sort of one color at a time. Adds like, little hints of color, and then by the end they've all got color mixed in. So I thought that that was pretty cool.

Jojo: oh! Interesting.

Sarah: yeah. Here's more, more cult stuff. [laughs] So then like, the first ceremony is the first real scary scene. It's like, it's basically like a suicide ceremony. And it's- so these two people end up dying. They're very visually divided from the rest of the group obviously, they're wearing special outfits because they are the special people in the ceremony.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: And then we've got everybody else bringing in sort of hints of blue along with the white.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: oh, I love this stripy vest right here.

Jojo: yeah!

Sarah: I kept noticing this guy in all the scenes and being like, "there's that vest!"

Jojo: and he's got multi-colored buttons!

Sarah: Mmhmm. Some stuff I learned from the articles that I read is that, you know, they're really cut off from like, modern society. So they make all their own clothes. So everything looks very homespun...

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: ...looks like they made it themselves. And she said she intentionally made some of it look better made than others, like to, you know... because it depends on who made it, or whatever.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: I'll get-- I'll do some more information from those articles that I read. So she said not everything that she used, like... the embroidery, textiles, colors, are necessarily specifically Swedish. But she borrowed stuff from other folk traditions, like other Scandinavian countries... Hungary. She listed other countries, but I didn't write them down, so good job... me. [both laugh] But she basically kind of pick-and-choose what she wanted to use, and made her own sort of folk look.

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: and I think it's super effective.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: they filmed in Hungary, and they didn't have a huge budget, so she did a lot of her shopping in Hungary.

Jojo: Interesting.

Sarah: And she said that she found 700 yards of this linen that was a hundred years old! So like, a lot of it is made of hundred-year-old linen. Can you believe?

Jojo: that's fantastic!

Sarah: I know!

Jojo: like, when do you get a story like that? Especially for a horror movie!

Sarah: also where do you find hundred-year-old linen?

Jojo: so true! I guess in Hungary!

Sarah: I gotta go to Hungary! I would love to fabric shop in Europe. I've never been.

Jojo: Oh, agreed.

Sarah: I can't even imagine how...

Jojo: that should be our next trip,

Sarah: Okay, great.

Jojo: maybe when we get rich and famous, this podcast can pay for us to travel. [laughs]

Sarah: we'll do a little Costume Plot tour, we'll do some live shows!

Jojo: that would be amazing!

Sarah: oh, that would be fun.

Jojo: so fun! Down the line, down the line.

Sarah: I feel like we could... okay not to go too off topic. But like, the movie analysis podcasts I listen to, they do live episodes, and all we need is a projector and we do a slideshow, and we do this thing live! Wouldn't that be fun?

Jojo: that would be so fun! Okay, ten year plan....[both laugh] Five-year plan! I'd hope that this would be happening in five years but...

Sarah: DM us if you want to come see us live, and then we'll, um... Venmo us ten dollars for your ticket right now.

Jojo: then you can finally see our faces. [both laugh]

Sarah: exactly. Okay. Anyway. The embroidery is all done by hand and like, she found teams of people in Hungary to do embroidery for her. So I just love that it all looks handmade.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: that's very effective.

Jojo: I love that lady's I don't know if it's a bodice?

Sarah: that one?

Jojo: yeah the one you're pointing at. Oh, that's so beautiful. And her hat!

Sarah: she had another bodice later on that I really liked, and I couldn't find any good pictures of it, and I got sad. But she's always doing a cute bodice.

Jojo: mmhmm.

Sarah: so what's next? Oh this is a nice little shot that we get of this girl who's going after Dani's boyfriend. She's like, carving something to put under his bed. But we can see the embroidery on her cuff, and...

Jojo: oh wow.

Sarah: it's just like, really beautiful little details. Really well done.

Jojo: it almost looks like it's printed on the fabric too. Like a stamp or something?

Sarah: this? Yeah, she's-- she mentioned that some of it is painted, so I think that this red pattern right here is painted on rather than embroidered.

Jojo: ooh.

Sarah: beautiful. Beautiful! I labeled this picture "death". [both laugh] Because this is from the death ceremony. And this scene was really visually striking. Because like, the white outfits really blend in with sort of the white rocky backdrop. And so the outsiders who have been brought in are so visible. You can see this guy back here, his name's Simon. He dies. Everybody dies. [both laugh] You can see, like...

Jojo: classic horror movie trope.

Sarah: everybody ends up dead. Except DanI, spoiler alert.

Jojo: right. [laughs]

Sarah: the Americans, and here they are, they're not... I mean, they're not next to the crowd in this picture. But like, you can see they're so much darker in color--their clothes are--than everybody else. So like, in the big crowd shots, you can really pick them out, and they really stand out as being different from everybody else.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: here's Dani. So this is toward the end, I pretty much skipped the whole middle of the movie, if that's okay...

Jojo: [laughs] no worries.

Sarah: it's more folk costumes, you know, more white. So this is her doing a maypole dance with the women of the community. And I'm going to talk about these symbols right here on the front of her blouse, let's see... where is it... here. This is from an article on fashionista.com. They used a runic alphabet to create their own language called Affekt. And every person in Hårga has a rune assigned to them that has meaning for their life or their role in the community.

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: So then they give her this outfit to wear for the maypole dance, and apparently the runes on the front of her blouse, the hourglass one means "helplessness or innocence" and the backwards R "forebodes crisis and death." [both laugh] So...

Jojo: you know, just in case you needed some foreshadowing. At the end of the movie.

Sarah: They're like, "your role is crisis and death! Here you go, enjoy your dance!"

Jojo: oh gosh.

Sarah: and then we've got lots of flower crowns happening. Beautiful.

Jojo: those are very beautiful.

Sarah: they made all of them, they made everything. You know you can't rent 500 white costumes and stuff, so...

Jojo: right, right.

Sarah: it's all very well done. Beautiful, beautiful.

Jojo: I do love those flower crowns. I feel like when I think about making flower crowns now, it's like... I don't think I have any flowers that would make it that full looking. Like, mine would just look really sad and droopy!

Sarah: I think a good flower crown is the fuller the better.

Jojo: yep, agreed.

Sarah: This is like, a full body shot of later because she...

Jojo: Oh my gosh, it gets bigger!

Sarah: ... she wins. She won the maypole dance. So they named her the May Queen, and they give her this, which is-- apparently this little flower cape is actually an actual real thing. They based it on real regalia from midsummer traditions. so that's cool. Oh yeah, but then later on they kind of make it into something that does not exist in real life. I'll show you that in a second. I like this headdress, it's like....

Jojo: oh there's a space! I didn't realize it goes up.

Sarah: yeah it's like a... it's almost like a...

Jojo: like the top of a basket, holder?

Sarah: yeah! Like a little handle. But in some shots it looked almost like it was horns. So it was a really interesting evil... foreboding... pretty...

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: like, contrast. I like that. And I like this, her skirt, too. It's got like, a little apron, so cute.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: honestly like, I would wear a lot of the clothes in this movie. [both laugh] I don't want to be in a Swedish death cult

Jojo: it's weird thinking about, "I don't want to be IN the movie, but..."

Sarah: I will take a cute linen skirt...

Jojo: "...but they look beautiful!"

Sarah: ...any day of the week. And then here's another shot of the side, where you can see the embroidery on her blouse. It's so beautiful.

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: such beautiful little details. And then this girl over here.

Jojo: yeah it is very like, I mean, forgive my ignorance. But it does look very Scandinavian or Norwegian. Which I think is so lovely.

Sarah: I thought that too, and I was like, "do I just not know?" Because she said you know, it's not necessarily Swedish. But like I think it looks pretty Swedish, based on Swedish stuff I've seen. I don't know.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: yeah. I'm not an expert but... yeah.

Jojo: that folksy, uh... folksy look that we all associate with east European countries.

Sarah: yeah!

Jojo: or like north European?

Sarah: oh and you can see in this, so this is toward the end of the movie. So like, we've got the white, and then we've got blue, red, and then there's some yellow that comes in too. To like-- as the celebrations continue the most important one has the most color.

Jojo: okay.

Sarah: And then so here we have this lady, who seemed to be in charge. I'm not sure what her role was, but she's like a priestess sort of role? She was like, doing the ceremonies and stuff, so um... I don't know what her rune means, but there it is.

Jojo: interesting.

Sarah: yeah, and then she has a cool headdress.

Jojo: yeah. Oooh.

Sarah: I don't know what that's called, looks good. And then this is her in her house, which is like.... crazy looking.

Jojo: mm-hmm.

Sarah: it's got, like...

Jojo: oh my goodnes.

Sarah: ...stuff all over the walls, yeah.

Jojo: it's like, tiles. But like, tarot card tiles.

Sarah: yes they do kind of look like tarot cards.

Jojo: but in white. [laughs]

Sarah: yeah. So she wears this for the whole movie. But I just wanted to show it because I like it.

Jojo: her hat looks very Danish almost.

Sarah: I'll take your word for it.

Jojo: But like, that could also be Scandinavian.

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: I don't know. Someone out there who's Scandinavian, please-- please educate us. [laughs] Because I would love to know.

Sarah: yeah, I did a little research but I didn't do that much research, you know. Like, I didn't research into what things are called.

Jojo: it's really lovely, it's a really lovely silhouette.

Sarah: Mmhmm. And it looks like it's really soft. I don't know what it's made of, maybe wool?

Jojo: mm-hmm, like a felted wool, almost.

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: Very cool.

Jojo: it does look very soft.

Sarah: what do we have next? Oh, these are… this is a scene of like, all the women that are— they're comforting her in a moment of scary… scary stuff happening. [both laugh] I'm not gonna talk about it. So you can see how they're ready for the party, so they're wearing super colorful stuff. I love these tassels. I love all of it. And you can see their hair too, very Swedish looking with the milk maid braids and stuff.

Jojo: Mmhmm.

Sarah: pretty.

Jojo: look at that blue trim!

Sarah: I know.

Jojo: so pretty.

Sarah: gorge. Yeah, I’ll also shout out— the production design is really cool on this movie. Like, even before we got to the Swedish commune, I really liked the color palette we were working with. Like, it's such a very clear visual language. You can tell that this director is one of those directors who has a vision, and I like that. It kind of gave me the same feeling as Parasite, where I was like, “this feels so well designed all of it.”

Jojo: right, right.

Sarah: So this is… this lady, how do I describe what happens to her in non-rated R terms? [laughs] She has a… fertility ceremony, let's just say that.

Jojo: Okay.

Sarah: And then after that, she she gets to wear this bodice. Which is— I think it's because she's like, more of a like a woman? She's like, moving into the next phase, or whatever. And she's wearing a red lip, which… nobody else is.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: so she must be special. [both laugh]

Jojo: I do love that vest, or like, bodice? It's not quite a vest. But it’s beautiful.

Sarah: I would call it a bodice, yeah. It's got like, tabs with lace around it. Floral print. Gorge.

Jojo: so pretty.

Sarah: what's next? Oh, here's more crowd people wearing all their colors. That's sad Christian.

Jojo: this is such a disarming movie because I feel like visually… if, you know, me just looking at all of these stills is like, “oh, this can't be a horror movie. Everyone looks so happy!” [both laugh]

Sarah: yeah

Jojo: it's like, that's what makes them more terrifying.

Sarah: that's why— okay so I had seen some pictures and I was like, “oh yeah, that movie looks beautiful,” you know. And I heard it was scary but I think I was… misled by the photos I've seen, about…

Jojo: [laughs] yeah.

Sarah: … like, it being scary. I was like, “it's probably like a little bit creepy, but not super scary.” It was SUPER scary.

Jojo: that's what I heard, yeah. Because I think when I first saw it on Netflix I just saw the the cover photo. And it's like, her crying. And so I was just like, “oh, maybe it's just like a really intensely felt emotion from the actual Midsummer Night's Dream?” Nope, that is not at all what it is. [both laugh]

Sarah: apparently Ari Aster originally was approached about making— well, I don't know if it’s his idea. Don't quote me. But it was originally just gonna be a slasher movie set in sort of like a Swedish cult…

Jojo: Okay.

Sarah: …and then he actually went through a breakup in his own life. And so he decided to make the movie about a relationship ending.

Jojo: yeah. Sarah: so that’s— you know, that's the central thing that's happening to the protagonist as she is also being tormented by these…

Jojo: right.

Sarah: …cult members. I mean, in this picture— so this is her boyfriend Christian. He's been given a paralytic and he can't move or talk, but he’s awake and cognizant.

Jojo: oh, that’s terrifying. Terrifying!

Sarah: yeah. Okay so… grand finale, are you ready?

Jojo: okay! I’m ready.

Sarah: boom.

Jojo: oh my gosh!

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: she just keeps growing!

Sarah: so this is… not a very good quality picture. But this is what I could find. It’s— for those who haven't seen it, it's like a conical dress made entirely of flowers. And there's no sleeves, it's like she's in a cone made of flowers.

Jojo: Right.

Sarah: So I have some information about it. This is the thing that they made up. Like, this is not something that exists, in…

Jojo: okay.

Sarah: …folk traditions. It has a structure underneath it of a hoop skirt which is, I— like, that's kind of what I would expect to be under there.

Jojo: yeah, exactly.

Sarah: yeah. And it's got fabric and then they used over 10,000 silk flowers. And the designer was like, “well, you know, in my in my dream world we would have used real flowers but it took us weeks and weeks to make so that wouldn’t have worked.”

Jojo: they would have died. [laughs]

Sarah: yeah. And apparently, based on the interview I read, it seems like the costume designer herself was working on this piece.

Jojo: Wow!

Sarah: Like, was there sewing on flowers and gluing the flowers with her team. Which I was excited to see;

Jojo: yeah!

Sarah: That’s kind of unusual.

Jojo: I feel like I do that so much, it's like… [laughs] it's like, nice to hear that other designers are doing that too.

Sarah: if it's a lower budget movie, you know, they're all on location in Hungary, they're getting it done. Like, if it needs to get done, I can make— it make sense that she'll get in there and help out, so…

Jojo: yeah, and contribute.

S; Yeah, I love that. So yeah it's it's very striking, it's very strange.

Jojo: [laughs] she looks so upset being in there, too.

Sarah: that’s Florence Pugh's signature face. She has a downturn in her mouth.

Jojo: she really does.

Sarah: it’s really distinctive. Yeah, she's basically watching everybody die during this scene so it's traumatic.

Jojo: Ahh, got it.

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: and stuck in this cone of flowers!

Sarah: apparently in between takes they would put a little chair inside the cone so she could sit in it. [both laugh] Because apparently it was really heavy and hard to move around in, which…

Jojo: right.

Sarah: …makes sense. So yeah, that's the end, I have one more picture and it's just a rendering. And I don't think that Andrea Flesch did this, I think she had them done, but they are beautiful.

Jojo: yeah!

Sarah: just a nice little rendering to cleanse our palates. Do I have anything else from the articles I didn't mention? No, I pretty much said everything! Yay me.

Jojo: yay! I know, it’s— it's funny because it's exactly like what you said, I think looking at all these images, anyone else would be totally fooled that this is a horror movie. [laughs] Because you don't see any of that, like…

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: you just get trapped, and then and then you find out it's a horror movie, and then it's too late.

Sarah: I will say, blood and gore is also very jarring against the background of these all-white costumes.

Jojo: yeah. Oh, yeah.

Sarah: …and landscape and stuff. It was— it's visually very striking.

Jojo: right.

Sarah: I'll just say that.

Jojo: right. Whew!

Sarah: so yeah, that's Midsommar. I'm not gonna say I'm traumatized, but— because I'm okay, I have not been having nightmares or anything. But it was it was quite an experience. To watch.

Jojo: that's good, that's good. I do feel like as I've gotten older, I mean— scary movies will still scare me. Which is why I still choose not to watch them. But I don't feel like I get nightmares as frequently as I used to when I was younger, because I— I don't know, maybe my overactive imagination was just more rampant when I was younger. [laughs] I don't know. But yes, I feel like there's a lot more scary movies that I'm able to kind of push myself through. And then at the end of it I'm kind of like, “okay great, now I know how to compartmentalize that and just put it away and try not to think about it while I'm sleeping.”

Sarah: I will say that this— I can handle the violence and the people doing bad things to each other. What keeps me up at night and will give me nightmares is ghosts or demons.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: Like, haunted stuff really freaks me out. I can handle like just like creepy humans but not ghosts.

Jojo: I think watching ghost movies is much worse for me, like you said. But I do feel like I've gotten to a point where seeing that much violence is also— it's starting to— it gets to me when I'm watching too much of it over and over and over again.

Sarah: yeah, I mean, I think we are all a little too used to violence in our media.

Jojo: yes. Yeah.

Sarah: so it is good to kind of take a step back and be like, “is it a good thing that I'm used to this and it doesn't bother me?” Like, probably not.

Jojo: Yeah. There's still definitely moments where, I mean, even action movies sometimes, I'm just like, “OH! I was not expecting that to happen.” So…

Sarah: right.

Jojo: yes, I know that feeling.

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: well thank you, Sarah! I'm glad I didn't get any information about what the actual scary parts of that movie were. [both laugh] But still got to see some beautiful costumes!

Sarah: yes, yes! I was watching it being like, “how am I gonna…?” And I was like, “you know what? I don't need to describe the plot.” Like, that's not what people are listening to us for. They're not listening to us for a plot summary.

Jojo: [laughs] it's true, very true.

Sarah: If they need to know what it's about they can go read Wikipedia or just watch it, because we're here to talk about the clothes.

Jojo: so very true. Okay, so…

Sarah: all right, I'm so ready to see yours. I've seen costumes from this movie and they're beautiful. I've never seen the movie, but…

Jojo: it's funny, because I had been talking about this movie, because I had covered it in class. And it was something that like— I was using a previous Powerpoint that had already been made. So I was kind of just talking about the same thing. But then I was like, “oh yeah, I forgot about this movie!" And I really really love Guillermo del Toro. I haven't seen Shape of Water yet, which I still really have to see, and would love to see. But I absolutely loved Pan's Labyrinth, which is also directed by him, if you don't know. But you know, just really really stunning. And again, I consider this a horror movie, but I really do feel like he's very much a kind of gothic romance type of director.

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: Because there's always a sense of romanticized fantasy about his horror stories. So yes, I will I will talk about that shortly. But I decided to cover the movie Crimson Peak, which again is directed by Guillermo del Toro, who's done Pan's Labyrinth, The Shape of Water. He actually also did both of the Hellboys, which I totally forgot about.

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: He did Pacific Rim, and then he actually got really into animated movies recently. And I don't know if you've ever seen the show Troll HunterSarah: Tales of Arcadia?

Sarah: no.

Jojo: it’s— I mean, every once in a while I’ll watch animated shows, and tv shows, and stuff. But this one was really really good, I would highly recommend watching that as well. The storytelling is just really really great and the animation is actually pretty good as well. And apparently he's down to do an animated stop-motion version of Pinocchio, which I'm very excited to see. Obviously it's going to be a much darker Pinocchio, because it's Guillermo del Toro, but I'm excited to see where it goes.

Sarah: I think that story is already dark, like…

Jojo: oh, yeah.

Sarah: …Pinocchio is not my favorite story. It's creepy and weird.

Jojo: It’s definitely creepy.

Sarah: so I think a creepy weird adaptation is appropriate. [laughs]

Jojo: yes. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see his take on it. And then the costume designer for Crimson Peak was Kate Hawley, who actually did Suicide Squad.

Sarah: Oh!

Jojo: she also did Edge of Tomorrow, she worked with Guillermo on Pacific Rim, she also did The Call of the Wild, and then she also worked with Guillermo quite a bit on the Hobbit trilogy. And so she has a lot of experience just working with creatures, and also just very fantastical elements, and also huge casts. So this was actually really great for her. And then she also did the movie Lovely Bones, which I included on there because that is also a kind of true crime, horror, psychological thriller-type movie.

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: But it's actually— it’s also a book written by someone who wrote about her experience at Syracuse University, where I went! So…

Sarah: oh!

Jojo: so there's some terrifying real life stories about Syracuse that she based on her first book. Sarah: Really?

Jojo: But anyways, I just thought that was really interesting, that she also did Lovely Bones. So, the setting for this movie, of course, is in two locations. Which, actually— while I was thinking about it, this is not in interviews or anything anywhere, but she sets it in Buffalo. Or sorry, Guillermo, who also wrote Crimson Peak, sets the story in Buffalo, New York, where they start. And then as well as Cumbria, England, where they eventually go. And it reminded me a lot of Dracula, actually. Because, you know, he does kind of— I mean, it's a little bit backwards because they start off in Transylvania and then he comes to America. But it's this idea that there's this haunted sort of otherworldly building or location that the two—antagonists, I guess you could call them—are from. And then they come to America, and our leading protagonist is from Buffalo, New York.

Sarah: cool.

Jojo: So it's set in the early 20th century, which is the 1900s and it's a very Edwardian silhouette, for those of you who are costume history buffs. Which I think is such a lovely silhouette.

Sarah: yes.

Jojo: And she really— Kate really, really did some beautiful work for this costume— or, for this movie, set in that time period. And obviously, she pushed some things in terms of color and fabrics, and just silhouette, and surface decoration, that is probably a little bit more exaggerated than that time period. But there's also some very, very traditional— like, you see them in all the fashion plates for the Edwardian era. And it's very, very clear that that's the setting we're in.

Sarah: I love Edwardian, and I feel like it— it doesn't get done enough? Like, I think Victorian is what everybody always thinks of as “oldey-timey.”

Jojo: yes! Yeah.

Sarah: But Edwardian deserves some attention too.

Jojo: yeah, and there there is some leftover 1890s silhouettes, and almost even bustle silhouettes? That kind of carry over into some of these characters, because this idea of this house being kind of left in its old history, and sort of stuck in a period, and never moving forward. That's a big part of where we land when we go to England. But I'll talk a little bit more about that. So just to kind of give you a breakdown of the story first of all, the idea is that Edith, who is played by Mia Wasikowska— I think that's how you say her name.

Sarah: sure! [both laugh]

Jojo: ...who plays Alice in the new Alice in Wonderland. But she is our leading lady, and she's from Buffalo, New York. She comes from a very wealthy family. Her father is— I want to say he kind of owns a lot of land, and he's head of this conference of men who basically help fund different projects. So of course, this very wealthy man Thomas Sharp ends up coming to Buffalo, New York to ask her father for funding for this big project that he's trying to take care of on his land in England. And he's basically trying to dig up clay from his land to create this big thing. And he's created this invention and he's made a little model of it to bring into this first meeting with her father. But of course in the meantime, as he's coming to Buffalo, New York, he meets Edith on her way to basically publish a book. So she's kind of the “Jane Austen of her time,” is what they call her, because she's sort of this bookworm. She's very intelligent, she's very smart, she's always kind of the bright light in the room. And she actually— again, we don't really go into backstory of a lot of the characters. So I can’t— it sounds very much like I'm kind of confused about who the characters are because there are a lot of characters.

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: so there's a lot of backstory here. But basically, she comes in, she's this very naive and very innocent character. So as our protagonist, she's always seeing the positive. And she starts off the story talking about how she believes that ghosts are real, and that she's basically seen them since she was little.

Sarah: Ohh.

Jojo: So she lost her mom to… I want to say it was the the black plague? Or, sorry, black cholera. So she lost her mom to an illness when she was very young. But her mom immediately came back as a ghost when she was probably middle school age. So the first scene is basically her in her bedroom, seeing her mother come into her bedroom as a ghost…

Sarah: that’s scary.

Jojo: …and telling her not to go to Crimson Peak. Or, “beware of Crimson Peak” is the first thing that she says.

Sarah: Ohh.

Jojo: And of course she completely forgets about all of that. Her mom never reappears to her again until she grows older.

Sarah: right.

Jojo: So that's kind of the premise of the story. The protag-- or sorry, the antagonists that come that come into this world are Thomas Sharp, who's again trying to build his invention. And he comes in with his sister Lucille Sharp, who is played by Jessica Chastain. And she is gorgeous in this movie.

Sarah: She’s beautiful.

Jojo: all of the costumes are gorgeous in this movie. But she really comes in, and she's very mysterious, and there's this very standoffish feeling that you get from Jessica Chastain. So I will go a little more quickly into our costumes. [both laugh] I’ve talked very much about the story. Let’s see, let me go ahead and open our first one. Okay, one big thing I did want to talk about is that the costume designer talks a lot about how she associated Edith and Lucille with different kinds of butterflies/moths. So Edith is kind of our butterfly, very colorful, very vibrant. A lot of her color palette is kind of golds, creams, and warmer colors, in contrast to the moth. Who is kind of a reflection. Jessica Chastain's character Lucille is kind of the colored moth, where everything is very dark, very muted, and much darker than you would see in a lot of Edith’s costumes. So let's move on, so this is actually the first scene that we ever see Edith in. And this is— it’s kind of like her nightgown…

Sarah: wow.

Jojo: …she’s in this quite a bit during the movie, because we see a lot of scenes where she wakes up at night. And she's always in this very— this looks a little bit more Victorian to me.

Sarah: yeah.

Jojo: and it's almost like a combination of a couple different periods. Because she's got kind of the Victorian sleeves, but she also has the frilliness of the 1890s. She's got the high collar, which is very turn of the century, but then they've also added almost like a ruff? Which is a little bit Elizabethan, almost.

Sarah: yeah. I was thinking that, yeah.

Jojo: and again, this is also— being the first image, I think this is the other reason why I thought so much of Dracula. Because, you know, there's the new Bram Stoker's Dracula with Eiko Ishioka's costumes, and it's very, very similar in silhouette and shape. This idea that it's kind of this transparent white nightgown.

Sarah: Classic.

Jojo: And again, this is a kind of jump forward to the very end of the movie. And then they don't explain how she got here, what happened, they just show her in this quick moment first. And then, of course, you repeat back to it at the very end.

Sarah: right.

Jojo: so, kind of a haunting image. And she's also surrounded by by snow, because in England it's snowing at this time. Another nightgown shot…

Sarah: Oh, wow.

Jojo: …but again, you can kind of see her body through it. And this is— I just, again, that naivety and that innocence of her. This image was actually I just wanted to show this because it's just so luxurious. Like, it feels like you can taste these fabrics. [both laugh]

Sarah: Mmhmm!

Jojo: Like, everything is just so luscious on this set. And this is when they're still back in Buffalo, and her friend who's the investigator, who… you're not sure if he's in love with her the whole time, but he never really says anything. And Guillermo never really touches on that whole relationship, but this is his mother. So she, of course, is talking about the Sharps coming to England. You know, this is her daughter next to her. And they're very high society ladies, and they're bragging about how they're gonna catch Thomas Sharp's eye, and how he's gonna marry the next wealthy heiress to his humongous mansion. So they're coming in with all of these beautiful fabrics, and just the… mix and shapes of all the sleeves that she put into these costumes is… oh, it's just so lovely.

Sarah: beautiful, so sumptuous.

Jojo: yes. And even the hats and all the decoration that goes into that. I mean, even the ladies in the back, who you see for two seconds. You can see how much luxury is on here.

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: Which is pretty incredible. And then in contrast, Edith is in this very, very turn of the century silhouette. This is pretty standard, it's in a lot of fashion plates, but I love again that she's put her in this butterscotch sort of yellow-golden color. And she kind of remains in that color quite a bit throughout the movie. She kind of goes back and forth between this and the cream-white kind of nightgown that she's in a lot. So I just wanted— I just thought this was pretty, there was nothing else I wanted to say about it. [laughs]

Sarah: it’s very pretty.

Jojo: so this scene, again, kind of going back with that butterfly idea. This is actually a scene pretty early on in the movie, where she's talking to her father. She hasn't really met Thomas Sharp yet, but she's just been talking about trying to bring her publishing notes to a publisher. And it's interesting, because I watched this movie after Little Women, but I'm pretty sure they made it before Little Women. But it's a very similar idea, of this woman trying to publish her book. And she's trying to write this kind of scary story. Like, she jokes about how she wants to be Mary Shelley, and of course the the publisher tells her that she needs to include some sort of romance in there in order for it to be published. So she has this whole big—

Sarah: that is very Little Women.

Jojo: it is! And so it was just funny that she kind of had the very similar conversation.

Sarah: I mean, Little Women the book is very old. So you know, maybe they took a little bit of inspiration from it.

Jojo: it is, it is. Yeah, very much so. And I i think that also speaks a lot to her character, that she is this kind of naive— you know, she wants— she has such ideas about, you know, being this great author in this society where that's still not really quite accepted yet. Even though we are a little further along than Little Women.

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: But I think that was part of her character too, is that she keeps experiencing all these things that she doesn't really understand. She's always very innocent, and even in the way that her clothing is very, very transparent. I think that was something that the costume designer really talked a lot about wanting to emphasize, in contrast to Jessica Chastain's Lucille character that we'll talk about later. So this was just another close-up of how beautiful it is, and just look at that beautiful lace.

Sarah: I love that.

Jojo: one of the other things that Kate Hawley also talked about was wanting to really stick as closely as she could to the traditional kind of mourning practices of that time. So this idea, during during the 1900s, this idea of having human hair. Especially hair from a lost one, or someone who died, made into some sort of a jewelry item or accessory item that you could wear. And that way, you could always keep that person with you. So she actually made this belt out of human hair.

Sarah: what!

Jojo: and then they actually— I believe she said she also had someone make… they made a mold out of ivory, of these hands that she she found. Which are very from that period.

Sarah: So the belt itself is all hair? Or it just has hair in it, or…?

Jojo: yeah. It's all hair.

Sarah: Wooooow!

Jojo: like so, the braided part on the side. I wish I had… I had a image, and then I decided not to pull it. But it's it's a close-up image of the the belt. Maybe I’ll include it on YouTube.

Sarah: yeah, we have to edit ourselves down, unfortunately. [both laugh]

Jojo: I know! And I was like, “well, this is enough.”

Sarah: I take your word for it. It looks great.

Jojo: but yes, so all the the braiding on the side is all from human hair. Which I was like, “terrifying!” But, you know, for this time period, is very normal.

Sarah: I mean, yeah. Super normal. Kind of a weird idea for us, but like it was so… it was so normal back then.

Jojo: yes, absolutely. And then just again, having these little kind of delicate lace patterns and embroidery on there, that I think was very reminiscent of the butterflies that she keeps bringing back as a theme, in the differentiation between the two.

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: there's actually a whole scene where they're in a picnic in the park, and they're just picking up these dead yellow swallowtail butterflies. Which I was like, “oh that's so sad!”

Sarah: Aww!

Jojo: yes, terrifying. But yes, you see a lot of that in Edith's costume.

Sarah: oh I've seen this! Yes.

Jojo: yes, so this is prior to her going to the first ball. And she's been invited by Thomas Sharp, he's come quite late to pick her up out of his way to pick her up. And her father and her friend who's the investigator have already left. So she's in this robe getting ready to go to sleep, she’s not planning on going out at all. And this is what she's wearing before Thomas comes to her house. But even the fact that she's got this sumptuous robe, and it's got these beautiful flowers. Which— they talked at length about how everything was hand done and all the flowers were hand sewn. Which again is just an amazing feat.

Sarah: so much work.

Jojo: so that's all I had to say about that.

Sarah: gorge. Love it.

Jojo: so pretty. I wanted to pop this quick photo in there, because it just goes to show how wealthy everyone else in in this town was. Like again, this is the mother of her investigator friend who's trying to sell her daughter off to Thomas Sharp. And she's the one kind of running the party, and she's trying to get everyone to dance, but she's introducing Thomas Sharp, to say that he's gonna introduce how to do the dance— or, do the waltz, for everyone. He's gonna do a demonstration. And so she, of course, is expecting that he's gonna ask her daughter to dance with him. And he's walked in with Edith already, so everyone knows he's going to ask Edith. Except for this woman, apparently. But I wanted to just in indicate— you know, again, these giant sleeves, this really thin fabric. I think everything about this world, the costume designer really, really took the time to give everyone this sense of fragility. And almost this lacy see-through everything, but also mixing that with these luxurious fabrics, either satin or velvet. Also very of this time period. And really to show off that wealthiness of Edith and this woman.

Sarah: beautiful.

Jojo: so these are a couple images… I'm not going to talk too much about this, because we're going to go into this later, but just some images actually from— I believe this is from the FIDM exhibit.

Sarah: it is. You can tell, the mannequins always have that paper hair. [both laugh]

Jojo: yeah, I was gonna say, also the the text of the Crimson Peak in the back. But yeah, so just a couple of the of the costumes from the exhibit that I wanted to talk about, and we'll go in more detail about those later. So going back to the red dress. Guillermo talked a lot about wanting Jessica Chastain's first appearance in the ballroom, and first appearance on the screen, to be kind of like this “drop of blood”…

Sarah: Ooh.

Jojo: …in this presence of, you know, all these different dancers. So of course, this is her first dress. Just again, the sheer amount of work that went into building this dress. It's so beautiful. And it kind of looks a little bit more bustle period, because again, she's sort of frozen in the past?

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: but this is also the first kind of intimidating experience that you see, when we first meet Jessica, whose name is Lucille in the movie.

Sarah: I would be very intimidated.

Jojo: and she's a very accomplished piano player, very talented, she kind of runs ship at her house with her brother. And she's very, very close to her brother, so there's this very weird but also very tight-knit relationship between the two of them, and you're never really sure why. It's just creepy throughout the whole movie. And that's part of the unsettling idea, is that you don't really know if she's on your side or not on your side, and you never really know if she's for Edith or against Edith. Actually, most of the time you're pretty sure she's against Edith.

Sarah: [laughs]

Jojo: but she's the one who wants Edith and her brother to get married. Yeah, so there's a lot of sidebar conversations at the very beginning that kind of hint at what's gonna happen, but you're still kind of left with a lot of questions. Of like, who is this woman really? And what is her relationship to the brother? This is just a little more close-up of just the detail that goes into her dress. And again, it's I think it's velvet. it looks like it's like a velveteen, almost. And then they actually hand made all of it. Like, she has the same kind of pattern of leaves, kind of decaying and dying leaves, on most of her dresses, if not all of them. But just in different colors. So on this one, it's all the red, and then she has a blue dress later on. And it's a brown—like, really looking like it's rotted—trailing down her dress.

Sarah: interesting.

Jojo: So again, all hand done, all hand sewn, just really, really lovely. So I wanted to also go through another dress of hers, this is actually when they're in the park. And this is kind of the first time we see the Sharp siblings. And whenever they're in Buffalo they're pretty much always in this black, very somber colors. And then when they go to their house, it's funny because they get more color. But it's supposed to look a little bit more like their house, which is kind of decaying, so they're in blues when they go into their house.

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: Which we'll talk a little bit about later. But this is a very, very bustle silhouette. But you can still see some of that same kind of decaying leaf pattern that is also on this outfit, and just sort of artfully placed in a very different way than in her red dress or her blue dress. So then, of course, Thomas ends up asking Edith to marry him, at the dismissal of her father. Her father really doesn't like him, doesn't have a good feeling about him, basically is totally against the idea. And then her father gets his head bashed in, and gets murdered.

Sarah: Oh no!

Jojo: So, of course there's no one to say that— you know, we don't know who's murdered him. But he gets murdered pretty much the day that Thomas is asked to leave town, and basically breaks Edith's heart. And so Thomas waits behind anyways, and says, “I want to marry you, come live with me.” And she says yes. So this interesting first entrance— he kind of goes back to the blue of his house, which you can see here. It's distressed in such a way that it's meant to look decayed.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jojo: And then in the meantime, she's kind of dressed, again, as this beautiful butterfly. All of these flowers were hand done and hand tacked onto this beautiful coat. And muff that she's got, matching muff. [laughs] But even the hat, and the detail, and the sumptuous velvet that you see all over her. She's in a much lighter color again, to kind of reflect this idea of her being the beacon of hope in the midst of this very sad mansion that he's been trapped in for a long time with his sister.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jojo: So I thought that was a really nice contrast that the designer did. Just some more pictures of the back, you can see it's all hand done in the back as well.

Sarah: Wow, look at that.

Jojo: so beautiful! But yes, very deep care was taken to every part of this costume.

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: …and all of her costumes. This was sort of a quick— like, I'm not going to talk too much about him, because he actually is hired by her father to investigate the Sharps. The friend right next door is the one that I was talking about, the scientist who's also the investigator. But one thing I wanted to just mention about this costume was that I love this kind of green plaid that he's in. He almost looks a little bit like a leprechaun? [both laugh] But it's actually a three-piece suit that matches. And I love that he's also next to a green chair. So again, Guillermo plays around with a lot of this color matching, and sort of tone-on-tone-on-tone. Or same tone-on-tone-on-tone. So I love this this image of him, and the fact that he's got these crazy side burns that are also very period. Which, again, just small details for costume historians. But I just— again, he's not a major character, I just really liked his outfit. One thing that is very creepy about this mansion is that all of the clay, and the land that the house is built on, is all a red clay. So everything comes out red, and it's this really vibrant, almost bad horror movie blood red. So everything that you see in the house is sort of covered in red, or in some sort— or you see stains of bleeding red. So the house just constantly looks like it's kind of bleeding.

Sarah: wow, creepy.

Jojo: Which is very, very creepy. [laughs] And all the costumes—I think that was another thing, too—because there is, I mean, it is a very gory movie. So there's a lot of— they had to make multiples of all of these things. Which is the other humongous feat. Okay, so I'm gonna skip to… well, not skip to, but this is just some more of Lucille's costumes.

Sarah: wow, look at that.

Jojo: this is her costume when she's in the house, so remember, we see her in that red first, and then we see her in black when she's in Buffalo. But once she returns back to her house, her brother and her both return to this really deep blue velvet. And this is pretty much the dress she stays in for the rest of the movie. One of the things they talked a little bit about was that they wanted this idea of the decay, and the molding, and everything dying, to sort of carry over into the costumes. And they joked about her train being, like— getting longer and longer each time. Almost as if it was… I think they said it was like “the umbilical cord tying her to the house.”

Sarah: Oh, wow.

Jojo: Because she is very, very attached to this house. There's this whole idea of— Thomas tries to go away at some point, because Edith tries to convince him to leave. Because something in the house is clearly trying to hold him back. And she just refuses, and she obviously gets very angry that he's even considering leaving the house, because there's something mentally wrong with her. So you see that reflected in her dress. So not just the long tail, but also just the bustle idea. Again, this very dated look for this time period. Even the fraying and the kind of dying leaves that you see repeated, it goes— not just the front, but it also goes into the back. And again, all hand done. So…

Sarah: wow, SO much work.

Jojo: I think the next—

Sarah: Oh my gosh.

Jojo: yeah, these are some close-ups of all of that kind of dead, decaying… like, it almost looks like she's got even bullet… it's like those bullet casings? I mean, it's not, but it's this idea that she's got these dead… everything. Kind of growing on vines on her. Which the costume designer talked about a lot.

Sarah: It’s SO pretty. Oh, wow.

Jojo: yeah. Okay! Then… reflecting back to the swallow tail color of Edith, this is just kind of in contrast with the darkness of Lucille. And I wanted to just focus on how beautiful this looks. I think this is also from a 1900s portrait, I believe.

Sarah: Oooh.

Jojo: There’s actually a dress that exists like this. It's funny that it kind of reminded me a little bit of Mirror Mirror too, with the bow in the back.

Sarah: oh yeah, yeah.

Jojo: but there's a close-up of the flowers that they also hand tacked on there.

Sarah: [gasps] wow!

Jojo: it's so crazy!

Sarah: so much work!

Jojo: but yes, just so much stuff. So much everything. A lot of embroidery.

Sarah: beautiful.

Jojo: So this, I just wanted to focus on this, because this is the last scene that we see Lucille's character in. And I don't know if you care about the spoiler, but…

Sarah: no. [laughs]

Jojo: I guess this is not a spoiler-free podcast, we’ve mentioned…

Sarah: it's not! We say it at the top.

Jojo: but you find out that Lucille is clearly sleeping with her brother.

Sarah: I … thought so.

Jojo: So there's like this whole incestual relationship between the two of them, and so she's been controlling him, and causing him to kill all of these other women in order for them to gain money. To uphold the house.

Sarah: Interesting.

Jojo: so the whole time, he’s basically been going around and marrying women, and then killing them after he's gotten their money.

Sarah: wow.

Jojo: which was going to be the case with Edith, but he actually ends up falling in love with Edith because of her innocence. And when he finally gets the courage to try to up and leave, she ends up killing her brother. So this is the last look that she's in when she's doing all of that. And it’s— I mean, not only do you find her in her brother's arms, that's when Edith catches them. But she remains in this for the remainder of the movie, when she's basically trying to… not just kill her brother, but also kill Edith, as she's trying to chase Edith out the house. And it just kind of goes to show, this sort of— now that she's opened up and she's free, and this is, you know— everything's out in the open. She runs around in this, and this is also a very sheer garment. So it almost is like— it kind of reflects what Edith is wearing in a lot of her nightgown scenes, but in a much more regal way, as opposed to Edith's very done-up and conservative nightgown.

Sarah: Mmhmm.

Jojo: So just a couple more pictures of it, you can see how sheer it is on the dress form.

Sarah: So beautiful. So delicate, the fabric.

Jojo: yeah, so crazy. And then all the delicate lace at the top as well, and then this was just another image of the little… sleevelet.

Sarah: those sleeves are gigantic!

Jojo: yeah, they are. [laughs] It's SO much.

Sarah: so much fabric.

Jojo: it's so full, but also because it's so light and so sheer, you kind of really see how free she really is. But also kind of the most terrifying moment, because this is when she’s— when she's in the final stages of her gore, blood bath. Yep, that was it!

Sarah: awesome!

Jojo: that was the last one.

Sarah: I bet that that was a fun garment to wear, it looked really flowy.

Jojo: especially in contrast to all the other stuff, because I think the other ones, she actually had all the extra layers.

Sarah: corsets.

Jojo: they showed an image of an old corset that she had to wear, but it didn't make it into the movie. But it was a very old S-bend corset…

Sarah: Oh, gosh.

Jojo: …so it was really really restricting, and I think that was sort of to help her get into the character. Of feeling like she's trapped in this house and that she has to be a certain way.

Sarah: for those who don't know, an S-curve corset is the hardest corset to wear, because the ideal silhouette of the time was a full bosom and like— your pelvis tilted back, so that your hips were full and your bum was full in the back. So it puts your spine in this really horrible position where you're always tilted forward.

Jojo: Yeah.

Sarah: So if you're ever going to wear a corset, don't pick an S-curve one. [both laugh]

Jojo: don't do it.

Sarah: don't do it to yourself.

Jojo: one really quick quote I wanted to leave off with that was by— I believe it was by Kate. It said, “Edith reflects the Buffalo sunshine, whereas Lucille's heavy dark gown absorbs it. She looks like she's in mourning with the red rose detail as the only blast of color, and it mirrors the family heirloom…” which is the wedding ring that Edith gets from Thomas. And ends up going to all of the people that he kills. “…While also matching the crimson of her ancestral estate, and it takes its place over her heart that belongs to her brother. Whereas Edith wears a cornucopia of floral adornments on her hat and blouse to reflect new life.” So I think that was definitely carried throughout the movie. I think she did a really good job very— very kind of symbolic in all of the costumes. And I think I didn't focus so much on the men because there was just so much to look at for the women…

Sarah: [laughs] yeah.

Jojo: …but I did love that Thomas at least reflected his sister in terms of color palette.

Sarah: it's funny because I hear about that symbolism and I'm like, “Oh, that sounds a little bit heavy-handed.” But I think that that's only because I'm thinking about it, you know?

Jojo: Right.

Sarah: Like, if you're watching the movie, it's something that you might subconsciously recognize, but only if you're analyzing it do you think about how literal it is. So that means that it's not heavy-handed.

Jojo: yeah, right, right. Exactly. And you do focus a lot more on how beautiful these costumes are, because she focuses on luxurious textures, which I think is done very successfully.

Sarah: cool, I want to watch it now!

Jojo: so yeah… I know, it’s— like I said, this one is probably not as scary as Midsommar. [both laugh] I think because I kind of was like, “Oh okay, something is off about this relationship,” and then by the end you're like, “Okay, I kind of saw that coming.” There's a few jump scares, but there's not too many. I think I had my volume low enough that it also didn't make it as scary. [laughs]

Sarah: I've seen the trailer, I remember the trailer came out and being like, “So the brother and sister are definitely together, right?” Like, it's pretty clear. [both laugh]

Jojo: yeah exactly I was just like, “Uhhhh… something is off!”

Sarah: “…And I think I know what it is!” [laughs]

Jojo: yeah!

Sarah: well, cool.

Jojo: I will say, I think one thing that did bother me was the fact that I think Mia Wasikowska's character still looks so young… that it does feel a little bit like he's marrying a child bride.

Sarah: gross.

Jojo: Like, I think that is— I mean, it's emphasized with her costumes too. But it definitely gives you kind of like a creepy, ��he's a little too old for you” vibe. Like, I mean, even though he's probably not that much older…

Sarah: yeah, and not uncommon, especially back in the day.

Jojo: true, true.

Sarah: but maybe not…. super comfortable to think about that hard. [both laugh]

Jojo: yes, very true. So yes, that's our horror episode!

Sarah: we made it!

Jojo: we made it. [both laugh] I know!

Sarah: it might be a while before we do another horror episode.

Jojo: yeah very true. [both laugh] Keep those suggestions, maybe on the limit.

Sarah: yeah, keep in mind that we're scaredy cats.

Jojo: yes.

Sarah: we haven't actually— I don't know that we've gotten any horror requests yet, so… good.

Jojo: that’s true.

Sarah: continue… not doing that, thanks.

Jojo: we haven't hit the horror niche yet.

Sarah: yeah. I mean, I think that, like… horror costume drama is a whole other, you know… genre. Because it's not like we're gonna—

Jojo: very true.

Sarah: I mean, I personally am not gonna just be like, “Oh yeah, I'm gonna cover Friday the 13th,” you know?

Jojo: [laughs] right.

Sarah: Like, it's not something that— Crimson Peak I think of as a costume drama.

Jojo: yeah.

Sarah: …AND a gothic horror movie.

Jojo: yes, very much so. Cool, well thank you, Sarah!

Sarah: great job. Thank you, Jojo. [both laugh] Okay, well…

Jojo: thanks, listeners!

Sarah: thank you! Don't forget to check out Breaking the Fourth Wall, the podcast that we're on. Once again, it'll be linked in the description. and thank you so much for listening

Jojo: see you on the next one!

Sarah: See ya, bye bye!

Jojo: bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo: thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah: our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 13: His Girl Friday & Roman Holiday

Please consult these Instagram slideshows for accompanying images: His Girl Friday Roman Holiday

Both:  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo:  

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah:  

and I'm Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers.

Jojo:  

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

All right.

Sarah:  

[sings] Welcome back, welcome back.

Jojo:  

Welcome to The Costume Plot. [both laugh]

Sarah:  

It's us again!

Jojo:  

Yaaaay! what are we on now? Month four, five?

Sarah:  

Good question. Yeah?

Jojo:  

I've lost track. It means we're that far in.

Sarah:  

and we're still enjoying it...

Jojo:  

That's a good sign.

Sarah:  

...which is good.

Jojo:  

Yes. Some little bits of homework, but at least we're enjoying the process.

Sarah:  

Hey, it's-- every time I'm like, "Oh, no, I have to sit down and watch that movie," I end up really enjoying myself. And I do my research. And I like the research part. So I'm still having fun. Even sometimes I forget to make time to do it. [both laugh]

Jojo:  

It's true. All right. So today, our theme is going to be black and white movies.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

We haven't really covered this yet. So this is kind of a new platform to talk about costumes. And one of the things that we are going to talk a lot about, or I assume we're going to talk a lot about, Sarah, is that, you know, how do we do costumes? And how do we differentiate characters when you're limited to a color palette of only monochrome.

Sarah:  

Yep.

Jojo:  

Because you know, now we're not looking at 1000s of saturate colors and ways to parallel you know, characters and things like that. So there's a very fine art of knowing how to balance textures and patterns and things like that in a black and white film. So, really excited about that. I'm going to be going first today, so I'm super excited.

Sarah:  

Yay!

Jojo:  

I'm going to be covering his girl Friday, which features Cary Grant and Rosalind Russell. I'll tell you a couple fun facts about that in a second, but it was released in 1940. So there's a lot of 1940s silhouettes that you'll see in our costumes for this one. It was directed by Howard Hawks, who actually was a humongous conglomerate in the film industry. He did Scarface, Bringing Up Baby...

Sarah:  

Wow.

Jojo:  

... Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, Only Angels Have Wings. So he's actually worked with Cary Grant quite a few times. I think Russell-- or sorry, Rosalind Russell was probably not one of his regulars. But she got really famous through this movie. So we'll talk a little bit more about that. The costume designer was Robert Kalloch. I don't know if that's how you say his name, K-A-L-L-O-C-H? Someone can correct me out there. He was actually...

Sarah:  

"Kall-oak"?

Jojo:  

Kalloch...? [both struggle and repeat the name, laughing] Not good at that kind of pronunciation. But he ended up becoming the chief designer for Columbia Pictures. And actually, he was really, really the heyday designer of the 1932 to 1940 period, specifically for screwball comedies, which-- this is considered one. And he also did quite a few projects with Howard Hawks. So "It Happened One Night", he did "The Awful Truth", "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington", and he also did "Only Angels Have Wings" with Howard. So again, a lot of these are much older movies, so if you haven't seen anything prior to like, you know, 2000, then maybe these are some new titles for you. But just know that, you know, these two were really kind of big in their heyday of being in the film industry. And Robert actually went on to be one of the mentors for Adrian, who is well-- very well known for all of his costume designs, pretty much from the 50s on, essentially.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm.

Jojo:  

So I'm going to talk a little bit about the actors themselves, because again, the Age of Hollywood, especially in the 40s, it very much became about who you knew, the celebrities that you recognized. At least from the kind of common people became... I mean, celebrities are still very important for us today. But there's a lot more celebrities all over. So we see musicians as celebrities, we see, you know, advertisers and promoters as celebrities as well. Whereas this time, it was mostly mostly movie, Hollywood filmmakers, or-- sorry, Hollywood actors and stars that became really in the public eye. So this was actually a piece that focuses a lot on the groundbreaking look at women in a man's world and one of the things that made Rosalind so popular for this movie. Interestingly enough, she was actually-- she jokes that she was the 15th choice because Howard went through basically every other person. Irene Dunne, he went through, I think he went through a Berlin Irving, or I don't know, I'm...

Sarah:  

Irving Berlin?

Jojo:  

I'm making up names now.

Sarah:  

Irving Berlin?

Jojo:  

No, no, I'm thinking of the wrong name.

Sarah:  

Oh.

Jojo:  

...because that's not a female.

Sarah:  

That's not a lady, no.

Jojo:  

[laughs] But he basically went through the entire list of all the other Hollywood female stars at this time. And basically, I think only one of them was actually unavailable. But I'm pretty sure everyone else on his list basically said no to the project. So interestingly enough, when he ended up with Rosalind Russell, he, you know, multiple times told her and she knew that she was not the first choice. So she found out in the public, because I think it ended up in the news that he had gone through all these other people before asking her, so. What a weird way to walk into a project, knowing that you're not first choice, but she totally ran with this. She ended up actually-- because the dialogue is so snappy in this in this particular film, because it's about reporters, she actually ended up hiring... I can't remember who it said she hired. She hired someone to basically help kind of clean up the dialogue and help them make it faster and make it really-- paced really well. So because of that, Cary Grant actually ended up becoming really good friends with her while they were filming together and ended up asking for his own personal training with the same coach, basically.

Sarah:  

cool. It's almost like a script supervisor, but like, your own personal one.

Jojo:  

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So again, she really brought a lot to this project. And like, you know, didn't get discouraged by the fact that she wasn't first choice, she just totally jumped right in, and just really gave it 110%, which I really love. And that's very much like her character in the movie as well. So again, she is, you know, the most powerful female in this in this giant room of mostly male actors. And she really carries her own very well. And even in the, you know-- there's small scenes where you could argue that there's some sexism going on, and all of that. But she really holds her own gravitas very well throughout this movie. And I think that they did a really good job of not just making her this kind of meek female that's surrounded by all these other male reporters. She certainly knows how to stand on her own, she's very independent. And they actually do contrast her with another character who is a little bit more seen as weak and naive and more feminine, kind of drawn to her own emotions and overwhelmed by her own emotions. So seeing that in comparison to how she portrays Hildy, who is our main character, you really see a lot of that contrast. And they did that really well. And again, this is in the 1940s, when most women weren't really in what they call a professional environment. You know, they're the professions that were kind of given to women at this time, were either secretaries, teachers, in education, or in the nursing departments. And there's nothing bad about any of these departments. But it was a very limited place for the woman in the work field. And so having her in this role as a reporter really made her stand out against everyone else. So the fact that she made such a huge impression on on women everywhere after this movie, I think it just goes to show how much power she had, even though she wasn't first choice. And how much she made a positive out of this kind of negative start, for lack of a better term.

Sarah:  

Well, I mean, on "Drag Race" last week, Anne Hathaway was on and she said she was the eighth choice for "The Devil Wears Prada". So I think you just kind of have to look at it as like, "well, it was meant to be," you know, "none of those other people were right for it, but I am. So I need to take advantage of the fact that I'm here and they're not."

Jojo:  

Right, right. Instead of looking at all the negative...

Sarah:  

yeah.

Jojo:  

... that comes with that. Yeah. Okay, so let me go ahead and share my screen. Alright, so I am gonna pretty much go in order with this movie, there aren't going to be as many costume looks for this particular episode. But a lot of it was because most of this happens, within a span of less than 24 hours. Right? So...

Sarah:  

both of our movies do, which is so funny that we picked-- we both picked some, that are like that.

Jojo:  

[laughs] Yeah, it's crazy though, 'cause in the-- you know, in this time, you're not really looking at years and years of time. A lot of times you are focusing in on a moment in time, or a span of 24 hours, or even a couple hours. So it's kind of crazy when you're watching the movie because you're not thinking about how little time has passed because it just seems like so much is happening.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

And then you're like, "Wait, it's only been 24 hours." [both laugh] So yes, I do love that. So just to give you a little bit of background on the story, and again, there are spoilers. But Rosalind and Cary Grant play Hildy, who's the wife and-- or, ex wife. And Cary Grant plays Walter, and Walter basically runs his own newspaper company. He's really like-- he's always been a reporter that's always after the story. And the opening credits actually start with this whole quote about how, you know, when you're a reporter, it's all about the story. Nothing else matters, to the point where it goes to extremes, like murder, and all these other things in order to get the story. And it's very much kind of the presence of what this story is about. So Walter owns this company. Hildy used to work for the company. But they've since gotten divorced. It's been probably a couple months now since they've gotten divorced. And she's the one who actually asked for the divorce. And her argument in the beginning, or her justification was that Cary basically-- or, I should say Walter. I keep saying Cary, because that's the actor.

Sarah:  

'Cause it's Cary Grant, yeah.

Jojo:  

Yeah, everyone knows who Cary Grant is. [laughs] But she ends up asking him for a divorce because she believes that he's basically too tied to his work. So he hasn't paid enough attention to her as a woman, he hasn't taken the time to appreciate her and really show her what a husband doting on his wife should look like. And again, you don't really see that change for Cary Grant the entire movie, because I mean, even at the end, I don't think that he necessarily suddenly turns into this doting husband. But you know that because he's not the one who asked for the divorce, he still is very much in love with her. And so the movie is very much about his kind of sneaking around and trying to manipulate the situation so that he can try and win her back. And of course, all of that comes at the cost of a story that they end up breaking onto.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm.

Jojo:  

So the first scene, when she comes into the office, is actually when she's trying to tell Walter that she is about to get engaged to another man. So she has been dating someone else since they've gotten divorced. She's fallen in love with this man and you meet him. But you don't really know that he's the engagee until she goes into the office and talks about this engagement ring. And she's covered her hands with gloves, so you don't even see that she's actually coming in for this purpose. So the movie really just starts you right in the middle of it. But the first thing that you see her in is this beautiful chevron two-piece suit with matching hat.

Sarah:  

Incredible.

Jojo:  

I love that the designer has really created such a huge contrast, not just with her and the stripes on her, and like-- the black versus the kind of lighter color. Interestingly enough, they said that the actual garment is supposed to be black and pink, which... it's so funny that this is how it's reading to us, because we always see black and white, or gray. But to know that this is a pink suit gives us a whole different, you know, understanding of this garment. But the opening scene, she walks through the first kind of row of all these other reporters and she's the only thing that stands out. And part of the reason they're able to do that so successfully is because Robert Kalloch, I'm gonna say that name wrong every time, Robert Kalloch ends up keeping everyone else around her in these pretty solid colors, or they're really subtle patterns, if there are any. And because she's the only thing that's got any kind of a vertical--or even pattern--on her body, she's the only thing that you see in the room against everyone else that's in these kind of solid versions, or hues and tones, of gray. Let's see, I think-- I do love also that he has put a lot of the women in these scenes in very powerful colors, because there's only... I think there's maybe one or two other women that she passes in the office. And you can tell one of the other women, who may also be a reporter? You never really see her again after this first scene. But she's also in this really dark black.

Sarah:  

Oh.

Jojo:  

So that's not her, that's actually the assistant, but you can tell even the assistant is in this more subdued gray behind her really vibrant stripe. Uhhh... nope, I guess I didn't grab it. Well, anyways, she's in essentially a-- what looks like a black two-piece skirt suit. So again, she's one of the ones that kind of stands out against everybody else. But it's really-- in that scene, it's just Hildy and this other woman in this black two-piece suit. So really making our women very strong in this world of kind of... for lack of a better term, hazy looking colors for all the other men. So that way, they really stand out a lot more. So this was something that I wrote just for my own interpretation of this suit. Obviously, I think it's a beautiful stripe. During this time. They also mentioned that because they had to ration everything, since it was entering into World War Two. Robert ended up, you know, kind of changing the direction of the stripes in order to save every piece or scrap of fabric.

Sarah:  

Oh!

Jojo:  

So you see that not just in the lapels on this, but you also see that in her second suit that she changes into later, to travel. But one of the things I really loved is that, for me, I feel like the stripes in the vertical lines in both of her outfits--so not just in this one, but in the second look that we'll look at--it shows a very tight laced woman, you know, she obviously has to be extremely strong and like hold her own, in a world full of men who are constantly trying to talk over her. And that's a big part of this movie, too, is that every character is constantly talking on top of everyone else, but you really focus in on her verbal language and communication with her ex husband. And you focus on that not just because of their dialogue, but also because I think we see, and focus, on her in the image because of her stripe, too.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

So even though she does a lot of sarcastic joking with Walter, and I feel like she's constantly-- she kind of keeps up with his sarcasm really well. But I think, you know... that femininity comes from the fact that she wants to be loved as a wife, and she wants to be treated as a woman. But I think with the stripes, it definitely gives her that more masculine kind of authority or power that she has in the room. And it certainly makes us, the viewers, focus in on her her power a little bit more.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm. Totally.

Jojo:  

Moving on. So, Walter's first suit. So in contrast to her dark and kind of bold lines, you see Walter in this really kind of pale and subdued... it almost looks like linen? Or... I'm not sure exactly what the material is. But he-- in this particular scene, he's also the only person in this kind of double breasted suit.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm.

Jojo:  

So that also is another way to sort of stand them out, especially with the limited color, by changing up the silhouette of the jacket and looking at the way the lapels cross. He also-- you do see other reporters and double breasted jackets later, but he's the only one that kind of remains in this lighter hue. So I love that they've definitely kept that to his look the entire time. Again, this is all within 24 hours. So this is literally the outfit he stays in the entire day. [both laugh] So I was like, "great, nice and easy, one and done." I do also love that if you look closer, which... you can't see it as much here. He actually does have a pretty subtle, almost like windowpane, plaid.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm.

Jojo:  

And again, you don't notice that until you're looking up close and personal, and it's after you're staring at the jacket for, you know, a couple minutes before you notice it. So you don't see it when she first comes in. But that initial contrast of the really light suit versus her really dark stripe is just a really nice way of looking at their characters too. Because I think the light heartedness of his character is very much reflected in how vibrant--or, I say "vibrant," but, you know--how light his suit jacket is.

Sarah:  

[laughs] Yeah.

Jojo:  

Because even when we see him later with Bruce, who's the engagee, there's this really nice kind of play of different tones of gray. So you see the dark is with Hildy, and the almost black is with Hildy. And then you see the kind of medium tone with Bruce, and then Cary Grant is in the the lightest tone of gray.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm.

Jojo:  

When we first meet Bruce--again, just looking at the kind of difference in silhouette--you can immediately tell that Cary Grant is our very sharp sleek business man. And he's always in these very straight vertical lines. His suit is very cut. And it's tailored very nicely, and it's much more vertical and slim fitting. Whereas with Bruce, the first time we see him he's in a trench coat. It's almost a little baggy on him, we don't really see the shape underneath. And it also gives him a much more casual, and a little bit of a naive, vibe. And I think he definitely has that throughout the movie. We certainly see him as like-- it almost looks like his mother has kind of dressed him? Like, he's got a nice suit, but it's not quite the same fit. He doesn't take care of himself in the same way that Cary Grant does.

Sarah:  

Right.

Jojo:  

And even the way that Hildy does. And I think both of them are very Metropolitan in comparison. So yet another comparison of the two of them... this is not the best example of the light versus dark because you don't really see his gray suit yet. But again, just that idea of the the trench coat being kind of oversized on him versus Cary Grant's more tailored jacket.

Sarah:  

Oh, wow.

Jojo:  

So then, halfway through the day, basically, Hildy ends up telling Walter that she's heading down to Albany with Bruce later that day, like within a few hours' time. And they're basically going down to Albany to get engaged--or, sorry--to get married, and they're bringing his mother with him. So she's trying to plan this train ride to go down to Albany and get married, and get hitched. And of course Walter, you know immediately that everything is kind of working in his brain to try and prevent this from happening. He's trying to get the train schedule changed. Like, he literally is calling people to be like, "Can we stop the train from happening?" Which... it's kind of crazy that he's got that kind of power. But literally doing everything in his power to try and stop her from getting married to this other guy. So of course, the biggest part of this is that there's this big scoop that's happening that all the reporters are trying to get on top of. So the side story, and all of this, is that there's this man, Earl Williams, who has been... I can't remember the exact situation because it was very late at night last night. [laughs] But he basically ends up shooting someone that was unintentional. And of course, his argument is that he didn't do it on purpose. I believe it was a police officer that he ended up shooting, but he didn't do it on purpose. He thinks he's in jail innocently, and all of this other stuff. So all of the reporters are trying to find out what actually happened, why he's claiming himself innocent. He happened to also be talking to a woman, I think they had one conversation. But then the news reporters--and you'll see this a couple times in this movie--you know, the news reporters are all about writing his story. So whether it's true or not, you'll see a lot of them actually make up facts, or they'll over exaggerate what's actually happening. So there's a lot of, you know, false news out there. Which ironically, today that's very applicable. [both laugh]

Sarah:  

Buzz word!

Jojo:  

...and very, you know, kind of what's happening. So again, this idea that all of them are trying to get the real news out there versus the fake news. And so this huge story kind of falls into their lap. And so, Cary Grant's character knows this. And so he kind of brings it up on a whim, hoping that it'll basically get Hildy convinced to kind of come back and work for him instead of going and getting married. And he knows her well enough to know that that's probably what she'll end up doing. So she keeps getting stalled and stopped. And everything keeps going wrong. Like she-- you know, every time she tries to meet up with Bruce, or every time she tries to get him on the train, something else happens. So there's all these... it's like a series of different things that Cary has basically manipulated to get Bruce in trouble and prevent them from going down to Albany. So this is her in the news reporter room, and you see her with all the other news reporters here. And even though their colors are very similar, just the fact-- again, that she's got the most prominent stripe going on with her two-piece skirt suit. And again, this is another place where they talked about Robert really recycling the direction of the fabric so that he could still reuse essentially every leftover scrap of what they had to make this suit. And it's just so tailored, very well to her body.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm!

Jojo:  

It fits her beautifully. And again, it just gives her a lot of power in this scene, especially with all the other reporters in the room. I think the only one that really has any kind of texture is this more... dumpy looking character, for lack of a better term. [laughs] And he's kind of like... they're all a little bit goofy. And I think they're all a little bit cutthroat, but not necessarily in a bad way. They're just all trying to scoop the story.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

And it's funny, because you'll see all of them appear in and out of the room trying to get the newest scoop. And so they'll all just update stories, and a lot of them are made up, you'll hear them saying things that are totally in contrast with what's actually happened. And they'll just say some random statement to put in the, you know, the front line of their newspaper. So yeah, it's an interesting look at just how false news can travel so easily, and how it can easily be misinterpreted or just mis-told. And of course, Hildy is the one that's trying to honor the original story. So she actually befriends Earl Williams, she goes and talks to him. And again, very much pointing to the fact that as an independent woman in a man's world, she is really the go-getter, she takes a lot of initiative, she knows how to get the right scoop, she knows how to go to the right people to get the story that she needs.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm.

Jojo:  

Okay, so... one of the things-- we do see her in that pinstripe suit for a good chunk of this scene when she's with the other reporters. But when she first appears, we actually see her in this beautiful fur coat. And again, this is just... again, continuing to show all the different ways in which we have to find other venues, or means, of being able to differentiate characters. And he certainly-- Robert has certainly done that really well, with even just making her the center of focus, because she's totally got a very different texture than everyone else around her. And it's also a much lighter color. So she's the first thing we see in the room. And I think they mentioned this with the movie as well, but she's always kind of the center of attention here. So it's never-- you never lose her on screen. Let's just say that.

Sarah:  

Right.

Jojo:  

Okay, so this is another example of the contrast between Cary and Bruce. And you can see here Bruce's darker suit, which if you look really carefully, he does actually have a really subtle pinstripe in there. But when you first look at him, and you see the three of them eating lunch together, you can see the very clear contrast of color. So Cary is actually-- he normally would have his blazer on. But in this particular scene, this is when they're talking about Hildy. And it's interesting, because Bruce is talking very romantically about Hildy in this scene, but Cary Grant is trying to basically throw him off the scent by saying like, "Oh, yeah, Hildy, she does all these horrible things. You don't want her to, you know, she's gonna just fight you back." And like, basically trying to put a bad light on her. So that Bruce will always see that negative. And, of course, it's his sneaky way of trying to get Bruce away from her and get her back for himself, of course. But we see this scene where he's got his jacket off, and... how do we make someone in this period look sexy? And in this case, it's almost like different levels of undressed versus dressed.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm.

Jojo:  

And so whereas... the conservative look of Bruce in this fully suited, you know, blazer and vest and pants. And then we see Cary Grant here, who's still doing up his tie, and buttoning up his shirt, and kind of leaving a little bit more of the exposed neck. And then seeing a little bit of his body form through his shirt, without the jacket on. And of course, he eventually puts the jacket on, and even then it's much more clean cut. But just seeing that kind of level of like, "Okay, I have my kind of casual... my jacket's off," and then putting it back on to kind of get himself back together.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

So then I just wanted to show you a quick contrast of looking at textures on the screen. Because again, it's not just about... especially in a black and white movie, it's not just about what your costume looks like on the actor. You also have to look at, how are they up against the background and up against the other characters? So this was a good example of just-- she's obviously got this dark color, but it's enough of a block in the image that you still see her as the main prominent person in the photo. Or sorry, in the screenshot. And yet, you still have all these really dynamic lines in the background. And then this is Earl Williams, who she's questioning. And just trying to kind of befriend, so that they can get along, and that she can hopefully coax the real story out of him. So this was one of the other females that I wanted to focus on. And again, she doesn't appear for very long, and then--spoiler--she actually commits suicide eventually. Because she is... so this is Molly. Molly Malloy, I think is her name, let me check my notes. Yes, Molly Malloy. So she's kind of the representative of the overemotional female. She's very, very easily stressed out, easily anxious. She talks to Earl Williams once because, you know, he just he's very depressed. And he needs someone to listen. And so after that happens, of course, all the news reporters run this whole story about how they're lovers and how she is keeping a secret for him. And she's gonna bust him out of jail, and all this other stuff. And of course, she ends up being the butt of all of these lies. And so she gets understandably very stressed from all of this "fake news." And so she comes in and tries to just defend herself and explain herself. But I love that they've sort of contrasted her with with Hildy, because Hildy is such a strong image and presence in the scene. And then you see her come in with these very... I mean, again, nothing wrong with being feminine, but there's a much more softness to her look. In terms of just even the curls that she's got in her hair, the flowers that she's got. Especially the frilled kind of collar that she has, and then just little puff sleeves that she's got, and the fact that this is almost slightly transparent, even.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

It tells a lot about how waif-like she is as a character. And she is very... blown back and forth by the breeze, and by all the reporters in this very man's world, so it was a good way to sort of showcase what other women at this time were experiencing in comparison to this very strong character of Hildy.

Sarah:  

Well, and it's-- it's always interesting. I mean... this is a very "old movie, not very 21st century way" of portraying women on screen, or in any media...

Jojo:  

Right.

Sarah:  

...it's that... making one woman strong by making the other one look weak.

Jojo:  

Right.

Sarah:  

So that the strong one looks stronger by comparison. And she's very "not like the other girls," you know, she can hang with the men. So that's kind of tough to see. But it's very much... it's very much changing. So that's good.

Jojo:  

Yeah, yeah. And it shows you how far we've come, too, as women.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

So... but yeah, I just thought that was interesting, that they played such a... because there are other females in this movie, like I said, but you only see them for two seconds. And the one other really strong woman in black was at the very beginning, and then we never see her again. So the fact that they had this person, you know, as a contrast was was interesting. It certainly made you emphasize and respect Hildy a lot in that scene. So this was just another example of the different ways in which we can contrast different fabrics. I wanted to show just, you know, all the multiple ways we can even put black onto a screen. Like, this is not just a straight black, because obviously they would read as the same color. But the fact that you see a difference between this black and the gray stripe versus this black and a black pinstripe.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

And then even the difference in the two suits between the two gentlemen. we have this character Pettibone, who... he's totally just kind of the floppy character. And he's kind of our comic relief in this particular scene.

He's the clown.

Yeah, he's definitely our clown character. And he comes in... trying to remember what I wrote in my notes. Let's see, I wrote that he basically-- the three-piece suit gives him this sort of stuffy feeling, but then it's almost like it's suffocating and burdening him, because he comes in sort of all over the place and a little bit chaotic. And then even just the way that his hair is kind of askew. And then he's got the bowler hat, which is also-- it's not a comical hat. But I think in this scene, because everyone else is in these really sharp fedoras, just seeing him in the bowler gives him a very specific character. So I think the costume designer did that really well. But even being able to see the difference in the suit jackets, not just size wise, but pattern wise, and just being able to fine tune those little details in black and white. I think that was my last one!

Sarah:  

Okay!

Jojo:  

I might have put them out of order a little bit. But yes, so again, not a lot of different costumes. But you can see how subtle the costume designer was, with really making sure the emphasis was on the people he needed it to be on.

Sarah:  

Mmhmm.

Jojo:  

And even the characters that were more similar in silhouette or color, they didn't appear for very long. So you never saw them on screen for very long together, if that makes any sense.

Sarah:  

Yeah.

Jojo:  

But yeah, you-- I mean, you absolutely know that Rosalind is the center of attention in this movie.

Sarah:  

Those stripes really tell you.

Jojo:  

In every scene she's always the one that you focus on as the viewer.

Sarah:  

Yeah. Completely. Such an interesting challenge, like to try to differentiate your lead from everybody else when you don't have color!

Jojo:  

It's true. And I was actually thinking about that, because, you know... how often do we really do projects where you're only limited to black and white? I don't think I've ever even done that.

Sarah:  

I haven't either.

Jojo:  

So I was like, "Huh." I haven't really thought about how I would have to see color and what it reads like in black and white, versus me seeing it in color in front of me. [laughs] And trying to process. What does that look like? If I only have black and white as my color palette?

Sarah:  

You would have to be constantly doing camera tests, like taking pictures and desaturating them to make sure that it looks how you think it's gonna look.

Jojo:  

It's true. Well, and the thing that's interesting about this, too, is that... like I mentioned before, her first chevron suit, it's not actually black and white.

Sarah:  

Right.

Jojo:  

Like, it's black and pink. So how does pink read on a black and white camera versus seeing black and white on a stage? Because I've designed shows where they wanted the color palette to be black, white, and red or something like that. But it's like-- that's a very different-- you're making very different choices, as opposed to when the whole entire screen filter is black and white. And it's not just the clothing that's black and white, but it's also that the actor has to look, you know, filtered through black and white. So very different challenges to face.

Sarah:  

Yeah, totally. And it's... back then they didn't really preserve stuff as much as they do now.

Jojo:  

Yeah.

Sarah:  

So if we have stuff that's been preserved, it's not in great condition. So I wish that we could know what color things were originally, and I'm going to talk about that a little in mine, actually...

Jojo:  

Yeah.

Sarah:  

...because there are a couple things that I don't know what color they were.

Jojo:  

Right.

Sarah:  

So it's... I wish we could see, so that we could contrast that with what it looks like on the screen. But we can't because...

Jojo:  

I know, I do wish that was one thing that I found more information about. I just didn't find a lot of information about the original colors of these. So it's like-- I mean, other than the... and even the black and pink, it was like, it's supposed to be black and pink. Like, they don't actually know.

Sarah:  

But WAS it, yeah.

Jojo:  

So like, who knows what color it was in real life?

Sarah:  

Well, and everybody who worked on it has passed away so we can't ask them. [both laugh]

Jojo:  

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah:  

Well, great job.  

Jojo:  

[as if to people who have passed away] Tell me!

Sarah:  

Great job. I need to rewatch that movie.

Jojo:  

Thanks, Sarah!

Sarah:  

...that movie's so fun.

Jojo:  

Yeah, it's definitely fun, and it's free on Amazon Prime. So... that was nice.

Sarah:  

Nice! Nice.

Jojo:  

Woo-hoo, I'm so excited about this movie.

Sarah:  

Yay! I was-- it was really nice to watch this again. So my movie is "Roman Holiday". One of my faves. The great Audrey Hepburn, directed by William Wyler, it came out in 1953. And the costumes are by none other than Edith Head.

Jojo:  

Ah!

Sarah:  

Who is... I'm so excited to have the opportunity to talk about her, because she truly is the most famous costume designer of all time, I think. And probably the first famous costume designer.

Jojo:  

I know, I'm surprised we haven't covered her sooner.

Sarah:  

Well, I mean...

Jojo:  

But I guess we haven't talked about a lot of old movies.

Sarah:  

Her career was very long.

Jojo:  

Mmhmm.

Sarah:  

But she stopped working in the 70s. So we haven't really covered anything past the 80s....

Jojo:  

That's true.

Sarah:  

...yet. So I'm excited about it. She worked, like I said, for decades. She was nominated for 35 Oscars, the-- obviously, the most of anybody, any costume designer. And then she won eight, which is so many Oscars.

Jojo:  

Yeah, it's crazy.

Sarah:  

She is one of only two costume designers to have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. And the other one is Ruth E. Carter, who designed "Black Panther". And she just got her star last month! So until last month, Edith Head was the only costume designer on there.

Jojo:  

That's fantastic.

Sarah:  

I know.

Jojo:  

That's so crazy to me, though.

Sarah:  

We need to get more costume designers on there!

Jojo:  

I mean, awesome that, you know, the second person is a woman of color too!

Sarah:  

Yes, yes.

Jojo:  

But like, that's crazy.

I know. I read that, and I was like, "really?" [both laugh]

That's depressing!

Sarah:  

No Colleen Atwood? No Sandy Powell? No... come on. No Eiko? I mean, come on!

Jojo:  

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially, after she's passed.

Sarah:  

I know!

Jojo:  

I just feel like that should be, like, an honorable thing.

Sarah:  

I know, I don't know what qualifies you. Like, do you have to get nominated to do it? I don't know. I'll nominate... people.

Jojo:  

Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. Question for one of our listeners out there. Someone tell us. [both laugh]

Sarah:  

Yeah! So this movie did win the Oscar for Best Costume Design in the black and white category.

Jojo:  

Ooooh.

Sarah:  

So I learned this: until 1967, there were two different costume design Oscars, one for color, and one for black and white.

Jojo:  

Nice!

Sarah:  

The categories first started in 1949. Most of the Academy Awards for Best Costume Design in black and white were given to contemporary movies. Because the movies that were being shot in Technicolor were really big, bombastic musicals, fantasies, stuff like that. So... it's so interesting that since they got rid of the black and white category, pretty much all of the winners for Best Costume Design are fantasy, sci-fi, you know, some setting other than contemporary.

Jojo:  

Yeah.

Sarah:  

And that's how it's been since then. And like, only three movies that are contemporary have won since they got rid of the black and white category. So I just thought that was really interesting.

Jojo:  

Mmm.

Sarah:  

Edith also won Oscars for "Sabrina," "All About Eve," she also designed movies like "Funny Face," "White Christmas," one of my personal favorites.

Jojo:  

Mmhmm.

Sarah:  

"To Catch a Thief". So, she's really behind a lot of the iconic looks of her time. She's-- also, Edna Mode from "The Incredibles" is based on her. [both laugh]

Jojo:  

I know! I love it so much.

Sarah:  

Her iconic little round glasses, which were often dark, and it was said that she wore the dark glasses so that people couldn't see her eyes in meetings. So they couldn't really know what she was thinking, which I love!

Jojo:  

That's so smart, I need to start doing that. [laughs]

Sarah:  

I know! Just wear sunglasses as a power move, to a meeting.

Jojo:  

It's true. My problem is I smile too much, because... so even if you didn't see my face, I feel like you just read it in my mouth. [both laugh]

Sarah:  

That's funny. So yeah, that's a little background on Edith. The setting for this movie is 1950s Rome, Italy. The typical silhouette of the 50s is based kind of on... it kind of started with Christian Dior's New Look in 1947, which I think we've touched on a little bit. But the New Look was revolutionary at the time because it was such a deviation from the silhouettes of the previous decade of the 40s. Because like we said, in the 40s there were a lot of fabric restrictions and rationing happening. So the silhouettes were really streamlined, not very showy at all, very utilitarian, sometimes military inspired, even, because of the war.

Jojo:  

Mmhmm.

Sarah:  

So the New Look kind of exploded onto the scene as... quite literally, a very new look that people were not used to seeing. It's characterized by small waist and an hourglass silhouette, which emphasizes the feminine features of a woman's body: a full bust, full hips, small waist. And it uses a lot of fabric in the skirts especially. So it's-- it's a very joyful thing to have happen after so many years of being restricted, not being able to use as much fabric as you would like to use.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

So that's a little background on the 50s. So let's talk about Audrey Hepburn's character, Princess Ann. So in this movie she's she's basically this princess, and she's on sort of like a European tour. I don't know what country she's supposed to be from, didn't really look into it. [both laugh] I don't know if they ever say.

Jojo:

i know, I was like, “i don't know if I remember either.” It's been so long since i've seen the movie.

Sarah:

She has sort of a non-regional British sounding accent. But she's basically on this tour, and she feels very restricted by all the rules she has to follow. All the public appearances she has to make where she has to be polite and shake hands with people, and just be a perfect princess. And she's really struggling with feeling restricted by her life, which is kind of where we join her in the— at the beginning of the movie. So this is the beginning, she's at a ball where she's meeting all these dignitaries and stuff. So… she's beautiful, obviously. [laughs] She’s Audrey Hepburn. One of the most beautiful women of all time.

Jojo:

Oh, yeah. I just love Audrey Hepburn. Like, timeless. It's like Edith Head, she just lives on forever-ever in your memory.

Sarah:

Forever. Legend. And also just a really good person? Like, she was a real philanthropist.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

she was cool.

Jojo:

yeah, everything about her life was… I don't know, it's just so—

Sarah:

she seems rad.

Jojo:

…respectable.

Sarah:

yeah!

Jojo:

that's not enough of a good word to describe it, but you know what I mean. [laughs]

Sarah:

yeah just like… the embodiment of grace and goodness, in my opinion.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

so this is her gown that she's wearing. Very 50s silhouette, although the fullness starts at the hip instead of at the waist, which is… I mean, it was pretty typical of the time.

Jojo:

Yeah.

Sarah:

beautiful off-the-shoulder gown. It's got beading on. And apparently in real life, it was sort of silver? I saw a picture of it on display somewhere, and it has really yellowed. So I didn't pull that because I was like, “well, that's not actually what color it was. We don't need to look at that.”

Jojo:

[laughs] It’s not gold.

Sarah:

So yeah, is this…? Here's a full length. And apparently…

Jojo:

Oh, it’s so beautiful!

Sarah:

Yeah, it's it's really iconic. I love the sash, you know? It's sort of like a royal… sash on it. With some metal-looking…

Jojo:

It makes me think very Anastasia.

Sarah:

Yeah!

Jojo:

Even though I don't know if that's actually the country she's from.

Sarah:

Who knows? I sure don’t.

Jojo:

But that sash makes me think of Russian. [laughs]

Sarah:

Yeah. Apparently in her screen test, the people—maybe the director—was worried that it was too long. But Audrey was an accomplished dancer. They were like, “can you dance in it?” And she was like, “oh I can DANCE in it.” [laughs] Like, “WATCH me dance. Don't worry about it.”

Jojo:

Oh, again, just… good at everything!

Sarah:

And then she's got beautiful, you know, jewels on. Tiara. Just…she looks like a perfect princess. I love her hair, it's sort of like a crown of braids, beautiful. And then…

Jojo:

Ooh, yeah.

Sarah:

Yeah. This is kind of… i'll brighten this picture up when I put it on Instagram, it's a little bit dark.

Jojo:

Mmhmm..

Sarah:

And then this is a fun little shot, because during the scene her feet really hurt. So she starts to  shift her weight and take her shoes off and kind of stretch her feet out. And so you get this nice shot of what the underneath of her dress might look like. And I don't know if this is what it actually looked like, or if it’s… it's probably some sort of thing they made just to shoot this.

Jojo:

Like, doctored up.

Sarah:

Yeah, like a half a petticoat, crinoline thing. But I thought it was really fun, this little peek underneath the dress.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

Oh and here's the rendering. Beautiful.

Jojo:

Ooh.

Sarah:

Edith Head made beautiful renderings. I don't think she ever really knew how to sew herself, but a lot of designers don’t.

Jojo:

Yeah, I think there's a lot of articles about that.

Sarah:

Yeah. That's okay. I mean, it helps but you don't have to. [laughs] Clearly.

Jojo:

There's a lot of designers, actually, that don't know how to sew.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Jojo:

I would say more than… more than not.

Sarah:

Yeah, it's interesting that the sash is red in this picture. I wonder if it was red in real life. Probably.

Jojo:

Yeah, it's so interesting to me too, when you're rendering for a black and white movie do you render it in black and white?

Sarah:

Yeah.

Jojo:

Or do you… you know what I mean? Because you're not… you're never going to ever see that as red in the picture. So it just makes me wonder, where do you make that decision to… do I just do this in the black and white that I want to see? Or do I do it in the color I think is going to read as this shade of gray?

Sarah:

I think she she rendered in color.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

I didn't find any other renderings from this movie, but I have a big coffee table book that I was looking at, and it seems like all of her renderings were in color no matter what the movie…

Jojo:

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah:

If it was or wasn’t.

Jojo:

Oh, okay.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Jojo:

Oh, so beautiful.

Sarah:

So next we have her nightgown, and this is when she's in her bedroom talking about how much she's tired of her life, and she kind of goes into hysterics. And they end up drugging her with a sedative so that she can sleep, which is… makes me sad.

Jojo:

[laughs] Yikes.

Sarah:

Yeah. So this… it's definitely period, but it looks kind of young. It looks like childlike and very prim, and I think that that just tells us more about how she's kind of being restricted. She's not allowed to… she's not being permitted to be a normal young woman. She's kind of being held back and kept in this life that she doesn't necessarily… it's not that she doesn't want it. It's just that she's feeling like she needs to escape for a while. And I love this, this is her… I called her in my notes her “handler.” But I think she's a countess of some kind.

Jojo:

Her handler. [both laugh]

Sarah:

Yeah, she's just going over her schedule.

Jojo:

I do love that.

Sarah:

I was like, I don't know. She's in charge. I like her gown, it looks… I don't know what fabric this is.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

It could be some sort of faille, where it's got the little tiny ribbing on it.

Jojo:

Oh, yeah.

Sarah:

Or, is there one called moire or something, that has sort of like a…

Jojo:

Moire? Yeah.

Sarah:

It makes sort of shiny patterns? Yeah. I like it a lot, I think it's really cool.

Jojo:

It's beautiful.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Jojo:

It's funny, because like, her… if you just looked at her head and her face, she does actually look a little bit like Edith Head.

Sarah:

[laughs] Yeah, the glasses too!

Jojo:

Uh-huh!

Sarah:

That's funny, that's very funny. So then, she sneaks out of the palace while under the influence of a sedative. [both laugh] Hijinks ensue. And so this is the outfit that she puts on to escape, and I think she… the sedative doesn't kick in until she's on the back of a truck, escaping.

Jojo:

Oh, jeez. [both laugh]

Sarah:

Yeah.

Jojo:

Moving vehicle and sedative do not go together!

Sarah:

Honestly yeah, she's lucky she didn't get kidnapped and die. [both laugh] But this is… so, this is the outfit she puts on that she basically, she wears for a lot of the… most of the movie, in the middle. But it goes through kind of a transformation as her day goes on. So it starts very buttoned up, she's got sort of a little tie at the top. You can see her teeny, teeny waist.

Jojo:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And maybe I'll talk now about… I read some stuff in my Edith Head book about Audrey, and I don't want to make a habit of commenting on actors’ bodies. But this relates to the costume design, so that's why I'm going to talk about it.

Jojo:

Okay.

Sarah:

So anybody who's sensitive to that kind of discussion might need to skip ahead a little bit. So she suffered from—Audrey—suffered from malnutrition during World War II. She's Belgian. And she was very thin, which was not really the ideal body type of the 50s. Obviously, they were all thin, but they… like I said, the ideal was sort of a full bosom and full hips, hourglass silhouette.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

And so Edith talked a lot about like wanting to de-emphasize Audrey's thinness, so that's why she has sort of a long-sleeve shirt. She said her collarbones stuck out a lot, so she tried to cover those, and then she put her in full skirts. Like, no form-fitting skirts, because her hips were so slim.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

And then she had really muscular legs because she was a dancer.

Jojo:

Right.

Sarah:

And they were probably sinewy, you know? Like, thin and muscular. so she doesn't wear anything shorter than a midi length.

Jojo:

Mmm.

Sarah:

So that was… that kind of influenced Edith’s choices when she clothed Audrey. And then just another tidbit is that her waist was 19 1/2 inches.

Jojo:

Oh my gosh! That's crazy!

Sarah:

That's teeny tiny.

Jojo:

That's like, half of a lot of people's busts that I know. That's like, only measuring from underarm to underarm.

Sarah:

She was a petite lady.

Jojo:

That’s insane. So crazy.

Sarah:

Yeah. Very, very little.

Jojo:

So was she… well, and I don't want to spend too much time talking about this. But was she intentionally malnutritioned, or was it just something from when she was born, that she just didn't get enough?

Sarah:

Oh no, I think it was during the war,

Jojo:

Oh, okay.

Sarah:

A lot of a lot of people in the war did not have access to food.

Jojo:

Got it, got it.

Sarah:

So people went hungry during a lot of the war. I don't know specifically about Belgium during World War II, but a lot of the countries… I don't know if they were invaded, but if the Nazis came in… like, they took all their resources.

Jojo:

Well, and Belgium was known for being constantly overtaken by multiple countries.

Sarah:

That's what I thought, I read that in a book.

Jojo:

It was right in… it was that tiny one in the middle of everything, so every country was invading Belgium.

Sarah:

Yeah. So it’s… if she was sort of… she was probably a teenager during that time. Or a child?

Jojo:

Oh, that’s true, that’s true. That makes sense, then.

Sarah:

Yeah, if she wasn't getting food during the time when she was supposed to be growing and developing, then that's kind of what contributed to how slight she was.

Jojo:

Right, got it.

Sarah:

So yeah, that's it, that's all I want to say about that. Okay, so this skirt. I don't know what color it was in real life, I really wanted to know, just out of curiosity.

Jojo:

[laughs] Yeah.

Sarah:

On the poster that they colorized, they made it blue. But then in some colorized images it's beige-tan.

Jojo:

Okay. I know, I was thinking blue initially, but then I was like, “who knows?” [laughs]

Sarah:

I don't know. And I did a light Google, I didn't do a deep Google of it. So if the information's out there, I couldn't find it.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

Yeah, so this is— she's a princess in disguise, you know, she needs to look kind of normal and blend in. And then here's Gregory Peck in his one outfit that he wears. [both laugh] Just like Cary Grant, he kind of just sticks to… he sticks to a suit. And he's also a journalist in this movie.

Jojo:

Oh!

Sarah:

So he looks a little bit more rumpled, because he's definitely poor. Because, you know, they go back to his flat and it's one room, it's tiny.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

So he's kind of like a penniless American journalist in Rome, but he's still a heartthrob. So he still has to look good. Here's a picture of her, this is from her screen test. But this is kind of what the outfit transforms into? Like, rolls up the sleeves, unbuttons the shirt, puts a scarf on. I tried to figure out where she got the scarf. Could not figure it out. [laughs] Like, in the movie. In the world of the movie.

Jojo:

In the movie, you mean practically speaking? [laughs]

Sarah:

Yeah, so she starts in a pump heel, and then she buys the sandals from a street vendor. I love the sandals.

Jojo:

I do love those.

Sarah:

But the scarf just appears, and it doesn't explain where it came from. [both laugh] That's okay, maybe I just missed it, I don't know.

Jojo:

Oh, that’s funny.

Sarah:

And then she gets her hair cut too! Which is, like… this haircut is so iconic. So cute. Love it.

Jojo:

M. Very Audrey Hepburn.

Sarah:

Like honestly, I would wear this outfit, and there are probably some outfits I have worn that look kind of like this. It's so cute, so timeless.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

And also, apparently they shot during the summer and Rome was very hot. So I think it's also very practical for shooting outside in the summer.

Jojo:

Yeah.

Sarah:

Here’s another picture, this iconic picture of them on the stairs.

Jojo:

So cute!

Sarah:

Yeah, just adorable, I love it.

Jojo:

I know, this makes me want to go back out and get more blouses again. [both laugh] I’ve run out of a lot of— because we've been stuck in quarantine, I'm just wearing sweaters and sweatpants.

Sarah:

I know. My sweatpants have like, holes in them. Because i've been wearing them for a straight year.

Jojo:

[laughs] That’s how I feel too! I was like. “I've had some of these pants for so long,” and I don't have the money to go out and buy a ton of new clothes. So all of my jeans have now gotten holes at the crotch and the knees and like…

Sarah:

I have powerful thighs, so that’s where it wears out.

Jojo:

…I really shouldn’t be wearing these anymore. [both laugh]

Sarah:

I just patch it. Patch it and move on.

Jojo:

I need to do that. [both laugh] It was recent holes, for the jeans. But yeah, some of my other sweatpants, I was just like, these don't need to be patched. These just need to get given away or thrown away.

Sarah:

My one favorite pair of jeans, I patched. Because I have thighs that rub together, because I got chub rub. And I patched them in the crotch so many times that I finally… like, there's no fabric left to patch, like it— and I still have them! Because I refuse to let go. But I can't wear them anymore. [both laugh]

Jojo:

That’s how I feel with some of my jeans! I was like, “but I love these jeans! They fit so well!”

Sarah:

It's so sad to have to let them go.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

Anyway.

Jojo:

Side note. [both laugh]

Sarah:

Yeah, so you can see a little bit more of her blouse in this shot. I think probably they had multiples of this, obviously, since she wears only this. But if you look at the long sleeve version versus the short sleeve, it doesn't look like THAT much sleeve is rolled up into that much roll.

Jojo:

Yeah, I was gonna say. I was like, “there's no way.” [laughs]

Sarah:

Yeah, so a little, you know… a little bit of movie magic. Switch it out for one that is shorter so that it doesn't look so bulky on the arm. What else did I say… oh yeah, throughout the day you know, as she's sort of going about her day and having fun in Rome, she gets a lot looser and more free. And that's reflected in the in the clothes, of course.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

She doesn’t— I don't think she stands out. I mean, she stands out on screen because she's Audrey Hepburn. But I think the idea is that she blends in because she doesn't want people to recognize her.

Jojo:

Right.

Sarah:

Love the sandals. I need to get some sandals like this.

Jojo:

I know.

Sarah:

…do I have anything else to say about his suit? No, he looks good. It's just… I think it's definitely… it's nice to contrast it to the one that Cary Grant was wearing, because I think it's a lot less sharp than that one was.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

A little more relaxed, you know? Probably summer weight, because it’s hot.

Jojo: Yeah, but still very much of that time period.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jojo:

Kind of, you know, the wider leg is starting to be— I shouldn't say “starting to be,” but it's returning in the 1940s, I think.

Sarah:

Mmhmm.

Jojo:

Or, this is 1950…?

Sarah:

’53, yeah.

Jojo:

’53, okay, yeah. So it's actually, yeah, it's getting wider in the 1950s. Because I think it was still pretty slim in the 40s because they were trying to save fabric, so…

Sarah:

Yeah, yeah yeah.

Jojo:

Yeah, tells you a lot about the period, for sure.

Sarah:

And it's fun to, like— it's fun to cover a contemporary movie, but that was contemporary at the time, you know?

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

It’s obviously not contemporary anymore. But it's so interesting to see. They're not trying to do any specific period, they're just doing their time, 1953.

Jojo:

Right, right. What's contemporary at this time is now period for us.

Sarah:

Exactly.

Jojo:

But then, what's contemporary for us will be period, you know, 10 years from now.

Sarah:

Yeah, exactly

Jojo:

So yeah.

Sarah:

Always makes me wonder, what will our decades be characterized by? It's hard to really tell when you're in the middle of it.

Jojo:

Yeah especially since— I mean, we have… we're going through fashion so quickly.

Sarah:

So quickly.

Jojo:

So it's almost it's hard to kind of pinpoint what is characteristic of our generation.

Sarah:

Yep, completely, so interesting. So this is her look at the end, when she's gone back to the palace and she's having a press conference. Because they lied and said that she was really sick, and she's just kind of out saying, “I'm better now and I'm going to continue my tour.” So Edith Head— I watched an interview with her from like, a thousand years ago, that they made about this movie. And she said this is lace, and I was like, “oh yeah I guess it is lace!” Because like I looked at it and I went, “is that organza?” But it's not, it's lace.

Jojo:

[laughs] Yeah.

Sarah:

It's very pretty.

Jojo:

So beautiful.

Sarah:

Back to the, you know, feminine, light, princess-y sort of thing. I love this little hat and how it emphasizes her new hair and her face. So pretty. And the pearls are beautiful too.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

Here's a full body shot of it, the silhouette is just gorge.

Jojo:

Oh my goodness, I can't believe the entire thing is in lace.

Sarah:

I know, so pretty!

Jojo:

So beautiful.

Sarah:

It's so romantic looking, so feminine and demure, but… still just like, “yeah I'm the prettiest in the room. What about it?” You know? [both laugh]

Jojo:

I'm not gonna lie, I love this sleeve, and I think— I mean, we've been working on this for the photo shoot we keep talking about. But that giant kind of like, lantern sleeve is just so… I mean, hers stops at her elbow. But I just I love that look, and it being transparent too, and being able to still see the delicate arm underneath is… I don't know, there's just something really beautiful about that.

Sarah:

I love the sleeve. I love the length of it, I love everything about it.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

And once again, we have the volume starting at the hip instead of starting it right at the waist…

Jojo:

Yeah.

Sarah:

…and that just calls more attention to her figure, you know?

Jojo:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And then this is her seeing them at the press conference and realizing that they actually know that she— they knew she was the princess all along. Oh no. [laughs] I was gonna talk a little bit— I did this in a weird order. This is his— he changes into this outfit on the second day, and it's more of a tweed blazer. I like it. You know, it’s…

Jojo:

I do, too. I love a tweed blazer.

Sarah:

It changes up the texture. Yeah. I think it's a fun way to be like, well, he's changing his clothes. It doesn't look that different, but it looks different enough that we know that he's changed.

Jojo:

Yeah, I feel like tweed is one of those textures that I always want to like… pet. [laughs]

Sarah:

Yeah!

Jojo:

Like, you can feel it even when you see it on screen. You know it's tweed, but you also— I feel like I get a tactile texture when I think of tweed, or when I see tweed.

Sarah:

It's also delightful to work with, because it's often very loosely woven and woolly. And things that are that way are really easy to manipulate and make them do what you want them to do.

Jojo:

Yeah.

Sarah:

So anybody who's ever made something out of tweed is like, “oh yeah. Piece of cake.” [both laugh] It just does what you want it to do, you don't have to even argue with it.

Jojo:

It's like the little slubby texture I love.

Sarah:

Right. So this is Irving, he's sort of our sidekick-y guy. He's constantly getting things spilled on and getting tripped, and it makes me feel very bad for him because he's nobody ever really apologizes about it. [both laugh]

Jojo:

Oh, no.

Sarah:

It's just like, he keeps trying to spill the beans. And Gregory Peck's character keeps stopping him from spilling the beans by pouring water on him, or tripping him at the restaurant, and it makes me sad.

Jojo:

Poor guy!

Sarah:

But I really like his outfit. It's a nice like sort of wide neck t-shirt with a high-waisted pant, and then sort of a jacket. And I like how casual he is compared to Joe… which is Gregory Peck's character's name that I haven't used until just now. [both laugh]

Jojo:

It’s okay, I kept using “Cary,” so…

Sarah:

So yeah, he's just like… he's just more casual, and I like the sort of other example of “1950s guy” clothes. Because it's a very tight t-shirt, it shows his chest very nicely.

Jojo:

It's funny because he actually looks very contemporary.

Sarah:

Yeah!

Jojo:

Because this fashion trend is kind of returning for menswear. So I just— it's like, we look at this even though it's from over 50 years ago, and it still looks like, “oh yeah, I could see that guy on the street today.”

Sarah:

High-waisted pants are coming back for men and I could not be more excited. I think they look so good on men.

Jojo:

Yeah, me too. Mmhmm.

Sarah:

I think they look so good on men. I… wear more of them, dudes. They look good on you!

Jojo:

[laughs]

Sarah:

Yeah, I mean— this outfit, I could see on a TikTok guy doing fashion outfits.

Jojo:

Yeah, uh-huh. Love it.

Sarah:

Yeah, totally. And then here's one more shot of them at the end. A little more formal because they’re, you know, visiting the palace. Just a nice— he's got a stripe, which differentiates him from everybody else in the shot. And then Irving is nice sort of compliment in his lighter tone.

Jojo:

Yeah, even in this last image he looks like— I think he just has a really contemporary face, too. Maybe that's the other thing.

Sarah:

Maybe that's it, yeah. Oh, the other thing I wanted to talk about a little bit is something I learned on Wikipedia. Which is that another designer had a big hand in this, in Audrey's daytime look. And her name was Sonja de Lennart, she was a European fashion designer and she was the inventor of the Capri pant.

Jojo:

Wow!

Sarah:

Which was a just a piece in her Capri collection, but it's the only one that has retained the name Capri, because it was distinctive, and it became famous.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

So Edith Head recognized how revolutionary her Capri collection was and put it in this movie. So this belt and this skirt are from the collection, I think.

Jojo:

Ooh, nice.

Sarah:

And Audrey Hepburn went on to wear Capri pants in “Sabrina” as well.

Jojo:

Mmhmm.

Sarah:

So Edith head introduced the Capri collection to the world, basically, through Audrey Hepburn. But the Capri pants are the ones that really made a lasting legacy. And Sonja didn't get any credit, in the— you know, in this movie. But…

Jojo:

Yeah.

Sarah:

…now we know that that was her contribution.

Jojo:

Right.

Sarah:

You know, I think that's pretty common, for them to have— it's like, Edith Head designed it. And by “design,” we mean she pulled whatever she needed to pull in and put it all together, and that's designing. And that's totally valid. But I think it's important to recognize the work of Sonja.

Jojo:

Especially for such a revolutionary garment like that.

Sarah:

I know, I know.

Jojo:

And that lasted for a long time.

Sarah:

And we still call them “Capri pants”! So like, clearly it's a legacy.

Jojo:

Right!

Sarah:

So I thought that was interesting.

Jojo:

So interesting!

Sarah:

Yeah, so that's “Roman Holiday”.

Jojo:

Yay, thank you Sarah! Good job.

Sarah:

Thank you.

Jojo:

I know, it's nice to always have those extra fun facts, especially when you… I mean, we talk about costume design so much, but we also both came kind of from a fashion background as well.

Sarah:

Mmhmm.

Jojo:

So it's like you have a little bit of that tie-in from both ends, and a lot of the same skills kind of translate through both. So I'm glad that it shows that they're working with fashion designers all the time. And even today, you'll have stylists on movies in addition to the costume designer. Sometimes they'll work together, sometimes it's kind of like they'll trade off what they work on, or what costumes they do. And so yeah, there's a lot of crossover between fashion and costumes.

Sarah:

Absolutely, and I think it's in the Wikipedia article, it was like, “she didn't get any credit.” I'm like I mean— that's not that uncommon. Like, it’s not that I think that Edith Head was stepping on her to take her success. I think it was just that she found clothes that she really liked and put them in her movie, and since she was the one who found them and put them on the actor, she was credited as a designer. And that’s— I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I do think that it's important now that we know where it came from, you know?

Jojo:

Yeah, and the hard thing, too, is that with costume designers a lot of times we are choosing clothes.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Jojo:

That already exist. So like, to credit every single designer brand that's on your clothing, you know… it's like, when you do have to do that project where it's like, you have no budget and you have ten dollars to your name to try and costume 100 people. It's like, well then, a lot of stuff is gonna come from Target or Goodwill.

Sarah:

Mmhmm.

Jojo:

And it's like, you can't just go to a brand and say, “okay, I got that thing from Goodwill. Sorry, Goodwill needs to be credited on the…”

Sarah:

[laughs] Yeah.

Jojo:

You know, it just doesn't make sense to be crediting stuff like that. Because clothes are just a natural part of our job.

Sarah:

Exactly, especially in contemporary movies, and it was a contemporary movie at the time. So it totally makes sense.

Jojo:

Right, yeah, so… but it's good that we're recognizing that now, you know, years later. [both laugh] Better late than never, I guess.

Sarah:

Yeah, and I think she was— she had a successful career, so it's not as if Edith stole this and she never had success again. She was a successful designer, so…

Jojo:

Ah, cool. That's a fun fact.

Sarah:

It is a fun fact, right? [both laugh]

Jojo:

Cool, well that's our episode. Hopefully you guys enjoyed that! I’m hoping we get to cover more black and white movies in the future.

S arah:

Yeah.

Jojo:

There's many more out there that we we probably have on our list.

Sarah:

Totally, and I'm sure we could find some examples of contemporary movies now that are done in black and white that would be interesting to talk about.

Jojo:

Yeah, I actually I was thinking about that when I was trying to pick up which movie I wanted to cover. Because I just watched “Malcolm and Marie,” which is also all in black and white.

Sarah:

Ohh.

Jojo:

And they're literally— again, it's like one scene that happens over less than 24 hours, it's overnight, and it's just two characters the entire scene. And it's just them going back and forth between fighting, and then making up, and then fighting again.

Sarah:

Wow.

Jojo:

So it's a really interesting movie. It's definitely one of those things where it's a lot— like, it's a deep thinking movie. You have to kind of understand what the director was trying to do. But again, looking at how black and white shows up on the screen and how to really costume for that.

Sarah:

Mmhmm. Totally.

Jojo:

Definitely more movies to cover in the future.

Sarah:

Yeah, so send them send them our way if you have suggestions as always. All right!

Jojo:

Perfect! Well thank you so much for everyone who's listening. Again, don't forget to review us, we're still donating a dollar for every review that we get.

Sarah:

Yes we are!

Jojo:

Sarah, do you want to remind them what… did we pick a charity that we're donating to?

Sarah:

I think Dress for Success is a good candidate. I think we should do Dress for Success.

Jojo:

Great.

Sarah:

Because they help people find professional wardrobes so that they can get employment and stuff. And I think that that, especially right now, is an important thing to be doing.

Jojo:

Yeah, absolutely. So yes, just if you're able to review us, I believe Apple Podcasts is where you can review us?

Sarah:

Please do.

Jojo:

I don’t think you can do it on Spotify yet, right?

Sarah:

I don't think so, I've looked into it and I don't know how to do it. If you know how to do it, please do it but I don't know how. [both laugh]

Jojo:

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah:

But the ratings and the reviews are what will get us to a bigger audience. So if you like us and you want us to find more ears, then that's the best thing you can do for us.

Jojo:

Yeah. Thank you so much, for everyone who's supporting us. We've been seeing even just new followers within the last week!

Sarah:

Mmhmm.

Jojo:

Which has been really exciting. So for those of you who are new and just joining us, we're hoping you're still as excited about costumes, to talk about them every week, as we are.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Jojo:

Or, I should say, every other week. Yeah, and if you guys have suggestions on any other topics or themes that you want us to cover, or just specific movies you want us to cover, know that we are adding them to our list. [laughs] Our very extensive list. And we'll try to get to them as soon as we can.

Sarah:

Yeah, we definitely will.

Jojo:

Thanks everyone!

Sarah:

Thank you!

Jojo:

So I'm Jojo.

Sarah:

I'm Sarah.

Jojo:

Thanks for listening to The Costume Plot!

Sarah:

Thanks, bye!

Jojo:

We'll talk to you next time!

[OUTRO]

Jojo:

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah:

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 12: Cinderella (1997) & Mirror Mirror

Please consult these Instagram slideshows for accompanying images: Cinderella Mirror Mirror part 1, part 2 

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

and I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo

Hello!

Sarah  

Hi. Welcome back to The Costume Plot!

Jojo  

Yes, it's weird. We're talking about kind of coming back to normal episodes this month.

Sarah  

Yeah, we had no idea who was supposed to go first. [both laugh]

Jojo  

It's been so many weeks.

Sarah  

I know. We hope that this podcast finds you well.

Jojo  

We're finally going to get the COVID vaccine. So that's exciting. Some new developments.

Sarah  

Life maybe slowly getting back to some semblance of normal at some point soon, hopefully. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yes! And you're going back to work next week, Sarah, so that's exciting.

Sarah  

I'm going to be working on a filmed production at South Coast Rep, which is very exciting. There are a lot of rules for even getting in the building. And like, not eating when I'm inside and stuff.

Jojo  

Yeah, you know, the every day thing.

Sarah  

It's gonna be a challenge for me!

Jojo  

Absolutely.

Sarah  

I'm a snacker at work. So that's gonna be challenging. [both laugh]

Jojo  

I know, there's a snacker in all of us, right?

Sarah  

Especially, I mean, this is true on film sets, too. But at theaters, there's always a snack table full of goodies.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So there's not going to be that during COVID times.

Jojo  

It's our sustenance!

Sarah  

I know. How am I supposed to get by without like, 15 Oreos in my workday? [laughs]

Jojo  

I'm also-- I'm always more of a salty snack person. Like, I love Goldfish.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah.

Jojo  

It's so bad at home.

Sarah  

Salty in one hand. Sweet in the other. That's how I like to do it.

Jojo  

True. That's why those trail mixes are the best. Gives you a little bit of both.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah. I love a trail mix. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah. Gonna be a weird new normal.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah, I am already dreading wearing a mask for eight full hours. Oh, I think I'm gonna bring multiple ones. So that it doesn't-- I feel like I'm gonna get acne on my chin. You know? Gross.

Jojo  

I've already experienced that a few times. It's just like, I need to not have this thing on my face for this long.

Sarah  

Or I need to remember to wash my face. Like as soon as I get home, you know, 'cause that's... that's gross.

Jojo  

It's a constant washing.

Sarah  

Yeah. So anyway!

Jojo  

Back to our podcast. [both laugh]

Sarah  

We wanted to do a quick reminder that we do have a YouTube channel. So if you're, you know, feeling limited by only looking at our pictures on Instagram, and following along there, you can go on YouTube and the full episodes are up. It's just the audio, but then it's a slideshow of all the pictures. So if that's how you prefer to listen then please go do that.

Jojo  

Yeah, it's it's a really nice way to be able to see the pictures pop up as we're talking about them as well. [beeping sound] So really easily followed along, which is nice.

Sarah  

I think my fire alarm just chirped. I hope it doesn't again.

Jojo  

Uh-oh, might need a battery change, maybe?

Sarah  

It's like... it's a fancy WiFi one. And it's like hooked up to my sister's... phone.

Jojo  

All right.

Sarah  

...Podcast!

Jojo  

So many distractions today. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Sorry!

Jojo  

It's been one of those mornings.

Sarah  

Yeah. Okay, so. So today's theme is fairy tales. And we're both really excited to talk about our movies. So let's just get into it.

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

Let's do it. Okay, so, you know by reading the title of the episode that I'm covering "Cinderella." I'm covering the 1997 TV movie.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Oh, my sister says it's a "monthly self test" that it does. Okay, great.

Jojo  

[laughs] That's good to know. I will say, I'm so glad that you're covering this version. I mean, I like the new version as well. But like, this is such a classic.

Sarah  

I was waffling between the two because I really do enjoy the Lily James, Kenneth Branagh live action one. But this one has been in the headlines recently because it just had an anniversary, and it just came to Disney+.

Jojo  

Yay!

Sarah  

So I was like, "well, it's it's the perfect time to cover it." And maybe I'll get to the other one eventually.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So yeah, let's see... it was directed by Robert Iscove, and the costumes are by our old friend, Ellen Mirojnick...

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

...whose name you might remember from the "Bridgerton" episode. I was really excited when I saw that. She clearly does excellent work.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And I looked at her IMDb to see what she's up to. And she's working on another "Cinderella". That's coming out this year, I think, and it has Camila Cabello in it.

Jojo  

Wow!

Sarah  

And I was like, "Why didn't I know they were making this?" [laughs]

Jojo  

I'm not sure how I feel about that. [laughs]

Sarah  

Me neither! People always be remaking "Cinderella," like there are never enough versions.

Jojo  

And I guess-- I guess the singing part of it will be great.

Sarah  

Well, I don't know if it's a musical. I mean, I assume it is if they have Camilla.

Jojo  

That's what I was thinking. Because I was like-- I'm assuming if they're putting a musician in there that they really want her to be able to sing well, but...

Sarah  

Yeah, I didn't read it to see if it's also the Rodgers and Hammerstein one or if it's like a Disney thing? I don't know.

Jojo  

That's so weird. I feel like they JUST came out with the other "Cinderella". But maybe that's my warped sense of time now. [laughs]

Sarah  

There's a lot-- I think, really, people just... they're really going for the nostalgia factor. And studios especially are like, "we know that this will sell tickets." So it's not a big gamble to do it.

Jojo  

That's true.

Sarah  

So like they always go with the safe one. Yeah, they know it'll sell tickets. And that's all they're thinking about, is money. So...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Anyway. So this is the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. And it's the only Rodgers and Hammerstein musical that was written for TV. And it was written for Julie Andrews, actually, she was in the original version in 1957, on CBS. And then it moved to stage after that, but it's had a couple more iterations on TV, it was done again in '65. And then this one in '97. And they added songs to this one, they added three songs that are actually-- I thought that they were written for this version, but they were actually borrowed from other Richard Rogers musicals, which is pretty funny. They're...

Jojo  

Interesting!

Sarah  

They weren't-- he was just like...

Jojo  

"I don't want to write something new." [laughs]

Sarah  

I didn't look to see if he was the one who was alive and said, "Yes, let's use them." Or if people were just like, "let's just borrow from his other work." So… Oh, and then this musical finally made it to Broadway in 2013, which is pretty late. And I saw it on its tour, and it was wonderful. I loved it. So-- and it has really beautiful transformation costumes, like magic quick-change costumes...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...and you can find some of them on YouTube, which is something I always want to do, is watch all of the transformations over and over again. [laughs]

Jojo  

All the magic moments.

Sarah  

It's... I have gotten to work on one magic quick-change dress, but nothing as big as the ones that are in that.

Jojo  

Yeah, it's pretty amazing seeing them.

Sarah  

There's-- it's like engineering, you know, it's a whole different side of costuming.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So, I have become sort of a Cinderella defender because this movie and the Kenneth Branagh one, especially, make her into a lot more interesting of a person than, say, the cartoon does. Also "Ever After," which is a great adaptation.

Jojo  

Oh, "Ever After" is so good. We'll have to cover that eventually, too.

Sarah  

Yes, yes. [both laugh] And then I'll cry about that white dress.

Jojo  

We'll just do another Cinderella episode. [both laugh] All the different versions of.

Sarah  

Like, "it's Cinderella year, we're only covering Cinderellas this year," and then we would never run out because there's so many.

Jojo  

[laughs] It's true.

Sarah  

I really like how she's-- she's basically an abuse survivor, right? So this one and the Kenneth Branagh one, and "Ever After" make her into this radically kind person who stays positive even though she's faced a lifetime of mistreatment. And she wants to find love, but it's because she wants someone to see her and appreciate her for who she is.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Not because she wants to be rescued, but just because she knows her own value, and she's waiting for somebody else to finally see it.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So I think that's wonderful.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Okay, moving into the costumes. This is the legendary Bernadette Peters as the step mom, and then the two step sisters. And you can see right away that this is a very colorful world. It seems to have no time period or setting, geographically. It's really just pure fantasy, which is fun. You can do whatever you want. It's just like a crazy mishmash of all of these styles. This is Calliope, the taller sister.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

She has a hobble skirt on, which is so named because you can only hobble in it, you can't really walk because it's so narrow. [laughs] And the step mom has one under this crazy tiered skirt too.

Jojo  

I love it.

Sarah  

This fabric looks maybe like velvet like upholstery fabric, almost.

Jojo  

Yeah, it really does.

Sarah  

So this is telling us-- it opens, basically, with these people. And it's like-- this tells us this world is crazy. It's fantasy. It's drama, you know, colorful. And then we have Cinderella who is... I couldn't get a lot of great shots of her in this because she's carrying huge packages for the whole scene. [both laugh] I have a... see, nope. That. That's it.

Jojo  

Oh yeah.

Sarah  

It's like a loose knit cardigan over just a very simple sort of muslin-colored dress. So this is a situation where everybody else is so crazy that she stands out because she's so plain, you know.

Jojo  

Right. I do love this color palette on her, too.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Like that really nice rust red.

Sarah  

Yes. So conveniently, the prince is also wearing that color in this first scene, which is a funny scene, because they're singing the exact same song pretending like they don't see each other. [both laugh] But they're, like, inches apart.

Jojo  

Yeah. Less than the socially distanced six feet. [both laugh]

Sarah  

And then they turn and see each other. It's like, he was literally right next to you this whole scene. So funny.

Jojo  

That's usually how musicals go, though. It's so improbable, but we just believe it anyways.

Sarah  

Yes, suspension of disbelief, and also it's shot in fullscreen. So the frame is small. So like, for two people to be together, they have to be quite close. [laughs]

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Yeah. So I like that they're both wearing the same color. You know, it tells us that they're-- they want the same thing. They're destined for each other.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I love his sort of-- I mean, this is his outfit in disguise. Like, people aren't going to realize that he's the prince because he's, what, because he's wearing a shirt and pants? [both laugh] He didn't even do a Jasmine-style cloak.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

You know, he was just like, "they won't recognize me if I'm not wearing brocade." [both laugh] I don't know.

Jojo  

Maybe it's the lack of embroidery and texture on his costume.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, when you see what the royal family wears, I suppose it makes sense. But you would think that since this whole-- the kingdom, the village, seems to be so obsessed with him, and the fact that he later gives the ball, they would know what his face looks like.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

That's okay. More suspension of disbelief.

Jojo  

[laughs] I guess it's not like they had TV or, you know, things where they could actually see his face plastered all over media all the time.

Sarah  

That's true. That's true. Maybe they've only seen illustrations.

Jojo  

Right, right. [both laugh] Pencil sketches, you know, a little-- little stick figure drawings.

Sarah  

Okay, so this is our king and queen, Victor Garber and Whoopi Goldberg, having a ball. You can tell everybody loved making this movie, which is like... that's always fun.

Jojo  

[laughs] It's been a while since I've seen Whoopi Goldberg in something.

Sarah  

I know, I love her.

Jojo  

I do .

Sarah  

I think they greenlit "Sister Act 3," which--

Jojo  

They did?!

Sarah  

I think... I remember seeing it on Twitter or something when it happened. I hope it happens because "Sister Acts" 1 and 2 are literally in my top 10 movies. [both laugh]

Jojo  

I do love them so much. So good.

Sarah  

So I love their color palette. You know, again, very bright. This hot pink thing on Victor Garber is so fun. And I read a little bit... I found a scan of a page from the book "The Art of Disney Costuming" that talked very briefly about this movie. And apparently they didn't have that big of a budget. And I think that you wouldn't know that unless you were told, you know, because the fabrics look very luxurious. Nothing looks cheap, I would say... for the most part. [both laugh]

Jojo  

There's there's a few exceptions.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, all looks pretty darn good. But it's funny because they actually-- most of the characters, at the end of the movie, go back to what they're wearing at the beginning. So they kind of recycle the first looks into their-- so most of the characters have two outfits, maybe three.

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

So that's kind of where we can see that there's not a lot of budget.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

But I like sort of the sari fabric that Victor Garber has on. And here's a wide shot where you can see it's nice and long.

Jojo  

That is almost like an Indian coat.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Very Indian inspired.

Sarah  

Yeah. And I think that using sari fabrics and using fabrics that have a metallic or an interesting pattern is an easy way to make things look luxurious without having to put a ton of trim or crystals on it. You know what I mean?

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Yeah, so I think they look great. Whoopi Goldberg wearing burgundy velvet. I love the natural hairstyle she has. Very good, very good. No notes. Looks great.

Jojo  

[both laugh] No notes.

Sarah  

So here we have the stepmother during the "prince is giving a ball" scene, and she looks cuckoo-bananas in this scene. I mean, everybody does.

Jojo  

Look at that floating thing around her head!

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

It's so great.

Unknown Speaker  

It's like a sheer sort of shawl. Except she's also wearing this large headpiece, which, don't worry, I have a picture of it.

Jojo  

Oh my goodness.

Sarah  

There it is. It looks like clock hands? Like, wacky clock hands.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Doesn't it?

Jojo  

Like all stapled together. [both laugh]

Sarah  

I think it's great.

Jojo  

She looks very-- for some reason, she just makes me think of Ursula. Like, I feel like these are things that she could have collected from the bottom of the sea and just fashioned into a little headdress. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Oh man, I love that visual. It's hilarious.

Jojo  

Maybe it's also that she's wearing that purple high necked collar.

Sarah  

Yeah, she does wear a good amount of purple. She does. So yeah, that's a fun look.

Jojo  

It's beautiful.

Sarah  

Yeah, I like this purple fabric. Once again, looks sort of Indian-esque.

Jojo  

Yeah, it's got that Indian trim  that's typically on the sari, as well. And then the small gold embroidery.

Sarah  

Oh, I don't have a picture of him. But I wrote down in my notes, "Jason Alexander doing the same inscrutable accent as the stylist in 'The Princess Diaries.'" Because he's doing this weird-- it sounds like New York, Brooklyn, and then it sounds vaguely European. It's, it's like nothing. It's just an accent but--

Jojo  

Whyyyy?

Sarah  

--it's not a real accent. [both laugh] It's pretty funny. So here we have the step family once again. And this is when they're getting ready to go to the ball. And I love that their, basically, dressing gowns and underwear are as exciting and interesting as their actual clothes. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yep.

Sarah  

One thing I didn't appreciate is, once again, there's a tight lacing scene. Because we always have to have one of those. And it was on Minerva, who is the shorter curvier sister and I was like, "okay, of course the curvy one is the one who has to be squeezed into a corset."

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Of course. Yeah, I love how elaborate this is. Like, this petticoat  she has is so many different fabrics and it's really voluminous and fun. And then I-- the other, the taller sister, is very Carol Burnett. She looks like Carol Burnett the whole movie. It's like she's doing an impression of her.

Jojo  

I love that a headdress that she's got going on. It's almost like she layered multiple shower caps onto it and like just attached them. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Yeah, it's like a bonnet? I guess.

Jojo  

Oh, okay.

Sarah  

I don't know... for like, you know, people wear to sleep or to put over their curlers.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

That's kind of the vibe it's giving me?

Jojo  

I love it. [laughs]

Sarah  

I love this peachy-apricot color of Minerva's outfit.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I think it's really nice. Okay, and then Calliope's is like-- it looks like burnout velvet, maybe?

Jojo  

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. It's almost got a slightly 1920s vibe to it.

Sarah  

Yeah! Yeah.

Jojo  

Like those draped... they're not really dresses. They're more kinda like capes, I guess?

Sarah  

Yeah, where it has sort of the the swag shape of like a... yeah, I know what you're talking about.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Also their house... is INSANE looking. Like, it looks like a Disneyland ride. [both laugh] It's wild.

Jojo  

Like, look at that wallpaper  and that weirdly shaped door..[both laugh]

Sarah  

It's... this whole movie is so fun. I-- it used to be on YouTube. And I watched it many times on YouTube. I think we watched it once in the shop at Fullerton, because--

Jojo  

I'm pretty sure... I feel like I walked in when that happened, with Rachel's class probably.

Sarah  

[both laugh] Yeah. That's the best, I love watching movies at work.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Okay. So now we are going to the ball. And here is Bernadette in purple again. This costume is so pretty. It's very much... so this is '97, so you can kind of see the '97-ness in some of the silhouettes.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I think that the volume starting at the hip instead of the waist is pretty-- it's very late 90s, early 2000s to me because like--

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I remember formal dresses at the time looking like that.

Jojo  

It's like almost a slightly dropped waist.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Which I always hated because I was like, "I'm too short for this." Like, "this is so unflattering on my body." [laughs]

Sarah  

Oh yeah, I have a pretty good hourglass, and then-- but dresses like that, I always felt like just kind of emphasized my belly. And made me look like I have a really long torso, so...

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

It's not my favorite silhouette on me.

Jojo  

Maybe for someone taller. [laughs]

Sarah  

Other people. Yep. And then here's a close up of her bodice and her jewelry. I think it's... I don't know how I feel. I think it's beautiful. But I also there's something about it that I can't quite articulate what what it's making me think, or how it's making me feel.

Jojo  

I feel like there's a very, almost-- maybe it is a very 90s thing, but there is a little bit of that craftiness that feels almost kind of kitschy?

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

So I think it is bordering on that like, not not quite bad, but it could go really bad. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

She walks a fine line with this design. Let's just say that. [laughs]

Sarah  

I feel like from far away it looks really good and expensive. And then when you zoom in, it looks a little bit like the stones are kind of hot glued on willy-nilly.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

You know what I mean?

Jojo  

It's like some mom decided to craft her own dress and decided she needed more jewels and got her Bejeweler set out. [both laugh]

Sarah  

The jewelry is very interesting. It looks like... I wonder if it's metal or if it's something else. It looks almost like gold plastic to me.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I don't know if that's true. I'm sorry to the people who made it, if it's not true.

Jojo  

[laughs] That could have been the effect too, though. Because, you know, I mean, there is something said about how she is trying to... I don't want to say "create this character," but she wants to look richer than she actually is. And maybe her version of-- it's kind of like how I feel about "Bridgerton," there's that mom who... her and her three daughters are in that really ugly kind of chartreuse color. And they're supposed to look kind of over the top and exaggerated and a little like they crafted everything themselves even though it's way too much for everybody else.

Sarah  

Right. It is unclear to me-- like, there's not a lot of background in this movie because it's only an hour and 20 minutes or whatever. So it's not clear if the step family is rich or if they are so desperate to marry the prince because they need to raise their status.

Jojo  

Right right.

Sarah  

Not sure. Not sure. I do like it from far away though, I love the swirls. I think it's very fun and fantasy.

Jojo  

It definitely looks much more luxurious from far away.

Sarah  

Yeah. And so here we have the sisters at the ball. And I love Minerva-- well, I love both of these dresses. But I love Minerva's especially, because it's this iridescent lamé that is just so pretty and sparkly. I have a second picture where you can kind of see the skirt.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

I know.

Jojo  

I love this shot.

Sarah  

Oh, this picture is bad quality. [both laugh] Whoops. I like it too much, I'm gonna keep it.

Jojo  

Oh, that's pretty great.

Sarah  

I love-- it's iridescent organza and lamé just layered on top of each other. I think it's so cool. And then Calliope's is like this crazy lampshade thing, which was probably really difficult to make--

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

-- but looks really cool. Oh, and the makeup in this movie is also very, very late 90s. Like, you can't really see it in these pictures. But they have full Bonnie Bell glitter gel highlights. And I'm like, "Oh my god, that was me." [both laugh]

Jojo  

I remember that from-- I do remember that from the when Brandy's character comes out at the end. Doesn't she have a whole bunch of glitter on her cheek too?

Sarah  

In her wedding dress? She may, I didn't get any pictures of it.  

Jojo  

Or maybe I'm thinking of Whitney Houston.

Sarah  

Yeah, I think... Brandi actually, I wrote in my notes that her makeup stays pretty matte the whole time. It's not very glossy, not a lot of dewiness, very matte eyeshadow. Very thin eyebrows, you know.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Very 90s. I have a couple pictures later on of the ensemble at the ball. And they are so different from what these step family are wearing. So they really stand out. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Because they look cuckoo. Okay, so next is Whitney Houston.

Jojo  

Ahh, Whitney Houston.

Sarah  

And she produced this movie, which is fun. I heard that she originally wanted to play Cinderella herself and then she was like, "Oh, wait, that might not be a good idea. I might not be the right age." [both laugh] That might just be a rumor though.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So I have complicated feelings about this costume. I think that it is kind of cheap looking?

Yeah.

It's effective. I like the fabric choice, it's kind of sparkly. But I think that the embellishment on it could look more expensive than it does.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I think it looks a little bit like-- if you're gonna use stones like this, especially on camera, they should be nice ones. They look kind of plasticky, and not--

Jojo  

This almost gives me the same effect as Bernadette's...

Sarah  

Right!

Jojo  

...front dress. It's it's kind of this hot glued on, giant Michaels gemstones, like... [both laugh] very kitschy.

Sarah  

Right. A little bit, as my friend Erik would say, "Becky Home Ecky." [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

Yeah, so I like the actual dress and her little cape that is attached to her fingers is cute.

Jojo  

I'm trying to figure out what this material is. Because in that last shot, it almost looks like-- it almost looks like latex. I think just because of the way that it's kind of see through and stretched over her bust.

Sarah  

Yeah. It's very shiny.

Jojo  

Yeah. Because in your second image, I can't tell if it's transparent or not? It doesn't look as transparent here. But with the other shot, because you can actually see the neck line...

Sarah  

Oh, look at this. Look, it has a pattern in it.

Jojo  

Ooooh, interesting.

Sarah  

I-- my guess would be... I feel like I had clothes made of stuff like this in the 90s and early 2000s. Sort of like polyester-y, stretchy, very slinky?

Jojo  

Yeah, it's like that cheap, spandexy kind of... I think I know you're talking about

Sarah  

Yeah, and I think it is sheer. I think it's two layers.

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

Yeah, you can kind of see right here in the skirt that it looks like it may be a layer of sheer on top of another layer.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I think that sort of the holographic sparkle effect is cool.

Jojo  

Could be, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Sarah  

But yeah, it's the embellishment that is problem.

Jojo  

They're also in kind of random places.

Sarah  

[both laugh] Yeah! Like...

Jojo  

Like, I'm curious what the goal was for how she laid those out.

Sarah  

Yeah, and the shapes are confusing, too. I mean, look, the wall next to her has the same shapes! [both laugh] I don't-- was this a trend, 'cause...

Jojo  

Match your wallpaper. [laughs]

Sarah  

It almost reminds me of home decor from a certain era?

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Do you know what I mean? Like, triangles and swirls were like sort of kooky decor?

Like, the geometric shapes.

Yeah, I... it's just a bit confusing. But I had a second sort of thought. Oh, I will say, I think this could be greatly improved with some Swarowskis...

Jojo  

Yes!

Sarah  

...but there are not many outfits that couldn't be. I do like how different she is, because everybody else on screen looks so cuckoo-bananas, that she comes in this streamlined silhouette. This all one color.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

You know? With this beautiful hair. And I think it really is sort of like a... she's sort of like a visual break from all of the insanity that everybody else is wearing. So I do like...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...I do like that, that she looks so different. And that helps her look more magical. And ethereal.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Good job, Whitney Houston.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, she's great in this role. She's great. Okay, so let's talk about Cinderella's dress finally. Beautiful.

Jojo  

Ugh! So beautiful.

Sarah  

There are so many iterations of Cinderella's, you know, classic blue or silver dress at the ball.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And this one is very of its time, you know, it's very late 90s.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

But I think it's very effective. It's... I had to kind of think about the fact that at the time in the late 90s there weren't nearly as many Cinderellas as there are now. So it had probably been quite a while since people had seen a live action Cinderella. So it needed to be something really fresh and exciting and of the time for it to make an impact. And also, it's exciting that she is black so that makes its own statement too.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And so it's like she's a-- you know, everything was all about the new millennium. She's like a Cinderella for the new millennium, the Y2K era. [laughs]

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So I think it's really pretty. It's really simple but it's very pretty. She's got crystals.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

This is where they spent their crystal budget.

Jojo  

Probably why they didn't have enough leftover for Whitney Houston! [both laugh]

Sarah  

Yes. And then here's her makeup, you can see. Like I said, very matte, just-- only blue, super thin brows, but she looks beautiful.

Jojo  

Also very 90s though. You know, it's like that really high contrast light blue eyeshadow was very common at that time.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. It's not as-- like, I think that makeup got a lot frostier, maybe the year 2000-ish. Because I...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I associate early 2000s makeup with really metallic and frostiness. But she doesn't have any of that.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah  

This is the-- this picture is from the "Art of Disney Costuming" book. So it's a nice shot of the silhouette from the side. I like how the bodice extends in the back.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. I do love that.

Sarah  

The sleeve detail is really pretty, love that. It's sort of got-- this little swag shape is sort of maybe a reference to sort of classic princess gowns, you know. Very pretty.

Jojo  

It's the little details.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, I wrote "it fits her perfectly," because it does. Yeah, I think it's really nice. I wrote in my notes, "I think it's okay." And I think I've warmed up to it a little bit more since I took that note. [both laugh]

Jojo  

The longer you stare at it, the more it grows on you.

Sarah  

Yeah, I think it's really pretty. So here's the ensemble at the ball.

Jojo  

Ooh!

Sarah  

And this is interesting, because if they didn't have that much of a budget, that makes me go, "where did they get all these dresses that are identical to each other?"

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I mean, in this shot, obviously, they're not identical. But like--

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

--everybody at the ball is wearing the same colors. So it's a variation of purpley-blue-turquoisey. And then we have Cinderella in very pale blue.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So it makes me wonder if they found all these gowns somehow, or if they just outsourced them.

Jojo  

I wonder if Ellen maybe had some sort of connection with a prom house or something like that.

Sarah  

Maybe, yeah.

Jojo  

Because that way they have-- you know, they have all the colors, and all the kind of nearby colors in one section. And they do some sort of a studio rental or something.

Sarah  

Yeah, maybe they purchased-- because it looks like a lot of them have sort of like a tulle overlay. So maybe it's like they purchased them and then added a bunch of tulle to kind of marry them all together.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

I grabbed this one because it has sort of a celestial star pattern on the skirt.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

On the left there. And then all the men are in sort of blue-purple tux, suit, things.

Jojo  

It's a really nice color palette for sure.

Sarah  

Yeah. You know, it does what we always talk about, which is: the leads really stand out, because everybody else is wearing the same colors. So I was really good, and I edited my pictures down. I have no pictures of the prince. I'm sorry.

Jojo  

It's real hard. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Yeah! I really wanted to talk about the ensemble and all the dresses, so I cut him. I'm sorry. You look very handsome. Okay, so I have some pictures of feet. [both laugh] Just to close out.

Jojo  

Some pictures of feet.

Sarah  

For all you fans... of feet.

Jojo  

Look at those stockings!

Sarah  

I know! So I like-- this is the scene where the glass slipper is being tried on all around the kingdom, and it's like a parade of really cute tights.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

That's why I pulled all these, because they're all so cute. And this is only three, and there's so many.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I hate the glass slipper. I hate it.

Jojo  

Yeah, it's super ugly. [laughs]

Sarah  

It looks like a loafer made of clear vinyl. [both laugh]

Jojo  

You're right, it doesn't really have very much of a nice sleek shape, which is what you'd expect.

Sarah  

It doesn't look like glass. It looks like Lucite or vinyl. I think the only live action glass slippers I've enjoyed are... the one in the new one. But it was heavily CGI'ed.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

They made them, I think they made them, and they look really like faceted crystal.

Jojo  

Uh huh.

Sarah  

And then I like the version in "Ever After," where it's kind of just like the heel is glass. And then the rest of it is really beaded silver. It's like a mule.

Jojo  

I have to rewatch the movie, but yeah, I think I know what you're talking about.

Sarah  

Yeah. And then when they do it on stage, a it's sort of like a stripper heel. But it's really crystaled. So I think that crystals really help sell the sort of...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...sparkly glass thing. This is like... not it. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Especially when you're zooming in that close to actually look at the slipper up close. It's like, you really want it to look dazzling. And this just does not do that.

Sarah  

Also, I don't have any pictures of it, but just imagine just Brandy's feet in these. She wasn't wearing tights. It's just like... toes. [laughs]

Jojo  

"It's just like... toes!" [laughs]

Sarah  

It's just like, "Welcome to my toes."

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

It doesn't look expensive. I'm sorry Ellen Mirojnick, I don't like them. [laughs] I just don't.

Jojo  

At that point, you might have as well wear, you know, flip flops, or like...

Sarah  

Well...!

Jojo  

If we're gonna see your toes anyway.

Sarah  

That transitions me into this, which is the shoes that Brandy takes off to put it on at the end of the movie. This is just like a full Walmart house slipper. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yep. I think I have those slippers.

Sarah  

I've bought these for shows where we have an old lady character.

Jojo  

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah  

Who shuffles around her house.

Jojo  

Oh, that's so funny.

Sarah  

I think it's kind of hilarious. And I want-- I would love to talk to someone about how they arrived at these.

Jojo  

Talk to me, someone. [both laugh]

Sarah  

I'd like to know why.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And my sister was like, "Maybe they didn't like whatever option they had," because earlier in the movie, she's wearing boots. And then she was like, "What if they grabbed these from Brandy's trailer," or from the costuming department, because they were like, "We need something she can just slide on and off really quick!"

Jojo

Right. It also makes me wonder, because, you know, a lot of the thing has to do with sometimes the shoe size you're working with. Because like-- I mean, I don't know what Brandy's shoe size is, but sometimes that can be difficult too. It's like, you'll find all these cool shoes that you want or that you wish you had, but then they don't come in the size of your actor. Or if your actor has particularly big feet, it's a lot harder to find a dainty looking shoe, or a dainty looking something-or-other that they can slip off. You know, that doesn't look like this. [laughs]

Right.

Jojo  

So wonder, you know, I wonder if part of it might have also been shoe size, or just, you know, the options of shoes at that time. Because I feel like nowadays, we've really come into a moment where we're really honing in on designing shoes in a very intricate way. And I-- not that they didn't have cool shoes back then. But I feel like, you know, the manufacturing might have been different back in the 90s.

Sarah  

Well, and they didn't have Amazon Prime. So...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...maybe it was a timing issue where they were like, "Shoot, none of the shoes that we bought for this scene are working." She can't take it off fast enough, or...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...it looks wrong on camera.

Jojo  

And we can't order something that'll arrive tomorrow.

Sarah  

Yeah, so they were like, "Run down to CVS and see if you can find some slippers." Or "go to the wardrobe trailer where they have slippers for people and just grab some," you know.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Like, it could have been, it could be... I just want to know. I just want to know what happened.

Jojo  

Just tell us!

Sarah  

Or if this was very intentional, and they were like, "Yeah, she's wearing house shoes because that's what people wear around the house." I don't know. [both laugh]

Jojo  

I mean, I guess in this house where there's so much crazy over exaggeration, it wouldn't be that far fetched.

Sarah  

Right! And it-- okay, I'm cautious to say this as a white person. But I know that a lot of people associate this kind of slipper with their black grandma. It seems sort of like... I don't know, I mean, my grandma wears shoes like this around the house too. So I don't know if it's-- if it's an intentional... if it's made to make us think about that, or...

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

...if it truly is just like, "This is what we had." I don't know. I don't know.

Jojo  

[laughs] So many questions. This is another one of those where we just need to bring Ellen Mirojnick on this podcast.

Sarah  

I know! Ellen, if you're listening, please get in contact with us. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Please answer our troubles and our woes. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, I imagine that they didn't intend for anybody to pull the screencap out and talk about the house shoes for five minutes...

Jojo  

True!

Sarah  

...but it's happened, so you can't stop us. [both laugh]

Jojo  

It's already out there.

Sarah  

Yep. So that's it for "Cinderella." Please watch it on Disney+, it's a delight. I think that... I am a Rodgers and Hammerstein super fan, and I think that it's a really sort of under-appreciated Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. I loved the 60s version when I was a kid and now I want to watch it again. And see...

Jojo  

I don't know if I've ever seen the 60s version.

Sarah  

I don't remember a lot of it. I remember that a lot of it looks like it was filmed indoors even when they're supposed to be outdoors. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Like, indoors in a studio? Or like, just in someone's house indoors? [laughs]

Sarah  

No, like a studio.

Jojo  

Oh, okay.

Sarah  

Like, sets that were made to look sort of outdoorsy, but they are not fooling anybody.

Jojo  

Ohhhh.

Sarah  

That kind of vibe. [both laugh] I wonder if it's out there. I wonder if it's on YouTube anywhere. But yeah, so...

Jojo  

I'm sure.

Sarah  

Watch it. It's a great hour and 20 minutes. And that's... that's it for me.

Jojo  

Yay, so exciting! Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah  

You're welcome! [laughs]

Jojo  

Okay, I will pull up... did we need to take a water break? Or you're doing okay?

Sarah  

I think I'm okay. Are you good?

Jojo  

I'm doing good.

Sarah  

I'm so excited.

Jojo  

Me too! Okay, so I'm super excited to be covering "Mirror Mirror."

This is another movie/live action that's been done quite a few times in multiple different varieties: the story of Snow White. I do love the way that this particular film, kind of similar to what you said with Cinderella--or your version of Cinderella--where they really emphasized kind of the strength of Snow White, and almost her independence. Whereas in the original Disney movie, she's a little bit-- I mean, this was their first Disney movie that they ever released, you know.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

I mean, cartoon, I should say.

Sarah  

Yep.

Jojo  

But, so her-- I think that time period, her character was not as as strong as we see women today. So I love that this version really emphasizes Snow White being able to do things on her own and being able to fight her own battles. And even though there is a love story involved and there is the Evil Queen, it's very much about her kind of finding her own strength and discovering that.

Sarah  

That's awesome.

Jojo  

So I really love that about this version of Snow White. This particular movie is absolutely a visual feast. It is one of my favorite costume designers. And I'll talk a little bit more about the release first. So, it was released in 2012. So not too long ago. The director was Tarsem Singh, who-- he's actually worked with the costume designer, that I'll talk about in a second, quite a few times. So this was their fourth movie together. I believe he's an Indian director who did, if you don't know-- "Emerald City" is one of the newer shows that he's doing about Oz, which I haven't seen, but I'm very excited because I just love Wizard of Oz stuff. He also did "The Cell" with Jennifer Lopez, "Immortals." And then one of his greatest passion projects, which I had to watch in grad school class, but it is the most beautiful movie I've ever seen... it's called "The Fall."

Sarah  

I have heard of-- I know the costumes for "The Fall." I've never seen it, but...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

... I've seen pictures.

Jojo  

Oh my gosh, it's just it's a beautiful movie. It's actually... they say it's his passion project, because it literally took him, I think, like 10 years to to film it.

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

Just because-- and that they were constantly, you know, running out of budget and running out of everything. But again, it's just so visually breathtaking. And that's very characteristic of a lot of his work, which is also why he continually works with the costume designer. So Eiko Ishioka, who's... she's Tokyo born, she actually started out as a graphic designer, but again, she's literally done all of these movies with him. So she did "The Cell" with him, she did "Immortals," she did "The Fall." And then of course, "Mirror Mirror." And I'm a little sad about this because "Mirror Mirror" was actually her swan song project. And she passed before she even got to finish the movie, or before it even got released. Which is, you know, very sad for all of us who lost her because she was such a visionary in terms of costumes, and you can definitely see the graphic design quality of her work. She also won the Oscar for Bram Stoker's "Dracula." So it was the newest version of the movie with Gary Oldman, and Winona Ryder, which is beautiful, if you haven't seen that, that's another great one. And then she also got nominated for a Tony for "Madame Butterfly." So she's kind of done, dabbled a little bit in a bunch of different things. But again, like I said, this was her final project. And what a beautiful project it is. I really love this particular movie, because one of the things I did want to talk about in particular was that this movie really showcases how costumes can really be about evoking an emotion, as opposed to just about the storytelling, because there's a lot of kind of impractical storytelling things that happen in this movie. A lot of the costumes don't necessarily make sense in like, a logical way, when we talk about why she's wearing certain colors or why she's wearing certain shapes and silhouettes. But, boy, you're going to be staring at how beautiful those costumes are. [laughs] And I think Eiko really paid attention to what her costumes look like against the backdrop in addition to just looking at, you know, what she's actually designing. And so just to give you a little bit of background about the sheer amount and number of costumes that she worked with... and I think she she tended to do this with a lot of her pieces. She worked on a really grand scale, and she knew how to do that very well. And she also was just one of those people who she kind of either went 100% or 110% full throttle or she did zero so...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...there was never really an in between for her, which is one of the things her director said about her after she passed. So the costumes were made in a combination of places; her shop in Montreal. It was also a combination of New York's Tricorn Costumes, Jennifer Love Costumes, Corelli Costumes, and Eric Winterland Costumes. Most of these places, I have no idea where they are. But I assume a lot of them are in New York, other than her shop in Montreal, of course. So then, in total, she had 400 costumes custom made for "Mirror Mirror."

Oh my god. 400?!

And then she had over 600 costumes that were rented and altered for "Mirror Mirror." Like, that's ridiculous. I can't even begin to talk about how many costumes that is. Like, we talked about the sheer amount of costumes in "Bridgerton"... this... this just overshadows that completely.

Sarah  

And this is one movie, and "Bridgerton" is a 10 episode show. That's crazy! [laughs]

Jojo  

Exactly! So it's like, the fact that, you know-- if you're going to make this your swan song, this is going to be the one. So anyways, I just wanted to start with all that copious amount of information about her costumes. [laughs]

Sarah  

She's a legend.

Jojo  

Alright, so I'll start with the-- this is kind of in order in the film. So of course, we see Snow White first in her princess dress. And one of the things that Eiko Ishioka talked about when she wanted to create this costume was that she wanted to tie Snow White in with nature. And it specifically is more seen in the beginning, I think. And of course, she's covered in these flowers. Her time period--because this isn't really set in a specific time period--it goes anywhere from the Renaissance, all the way up to probably the late 18th century. So you'll see a variety of different silhouettes, but again, because there's not a specific time period, and because this is such a fantastical environment, she really had pretty much free rein to kind of do whatever she wanted. So this particular one has a little bit more of a Renaissance silhouette. We've got kind of the the Tudor era little... petals? For her peplum?

Sarah  

Yeah, little tabs.

Jojo  

Yeah, the little tabs that she's got on her bodice, and then this skirt shape as well as is very Renaissance. Alright, so we've gone over this, she has a lot of florals on her dress and all over the top. It's weird because it almost feels like part of it is peeling off. And I don't know if that was intentional, or if they just use a fabric stamp or... curious. Who knows, that'll be a question, I guess, one day when I meet Ishioka again. [both laugh]

Sarah  

In... in heaven? [both laugh]

Jojo  

Okay, so this next one, there's a lot of kind of animal creatures that she uses in... there's a particular ball scene where she has everyone dressed in these beautiful dresses, and then she has them each having some sort of animal equivalent. So they have some sort of animal headdress. So this is actually from the ball scene. But Nathan Lane also plays kind of the assistant, very downtrodden assistant, to Julia Roberts, who is our Evil Queen. But I loved this outfit, because I wanted to emphasize the fact that his coat has actually been made to just stand out very much like a cockroach. And spoiler alert, he does get turned into a cockroach for a short period of time later on. So I love that she's already kind of given us this hint that he's gonna turn into a bug and that he already is kind of the bug of the piece because he's so abused the whole time.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And he's kind of like that bug that you just want to get out of the way. And I think Julia Roberts definitely treats him like that the entire time.

Sarah  

Aww.

Jojo  

So it works very well. Moving on.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

So this is the first dress that we see Julia Roberts in. So one of the things that I love about how well Ishioka has thought about this is that she's really thought about the entire big picture of this film. It's not just about how beautiful all these details are. She's really paying attention to how the colors of the characters really line up with each other. And I'll talk a little bit about this as I go through, but I love that she constantly has kind of parallel moments in both Snow White and the Queen's life happening in very similar--or pretty much the same--colors. So obviously this is her first appearance and you see that kind of same peach that Snow White is wearing reflected in the peach dress that's worn by Julia Roberts. I love that she's just sitting in this shell-like throne when you first see her, and she's just kind of laid back. The other thing I really wanted to zoom in on, which I think this picture captures really well, is her sleeve. Because it's got this built out almost heart shape.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But it's just standing there, and then she's also encapsuled that with an additional embroidered diamond, which is just incredible. So, I don't have a lot to say about these first two dresses, I just wanted to put it out there, because they're just so gorgeous. And this is the first thing you see. So it really does, again, introduce you to the world of Ishioka's work, and the remainder of her costumes are going to be pretty much just as spectacular as this.

Sarah  

Those sleeves are kind of giving me a Tudor feeling.  

Jojo  

Very much so.

Sarah  

It's like a reference, but it's not literal, you know, it's just kind of evoking sort of the vibe of a Tudor sleeve.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely. And this is kind of where it starts, she actually does get a lot more Tudor...

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

...in the other sleeve shapes that Ishioka puts on her. So she starts getting kind of those long, draped over-sleeves that are very common from that time period. So yeah, lots of influence from the Tudor period here. Okay...

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

Then we go to the scene... this is kind of a short cut in scene at the beginning to introduce our prince. And I don't have a ton to say about the prince because again, we have to, you know, filter down, but I wanted to pull this picture because I wanted to show just the dwarves and how creative Ishioka was with this. Because it's this fact that, you know, the seven dwarves are actually this band of thieves that kind of steal money from the rich that are crossing through their forest. And so their way of being more intimidating is to be walking, and kind of bouncing around, on these accordion stilts that they just run around through the forest on.

Sarah

That's crazy.

Jojo

And it's funny because you know, when you first see them, you don't think that they're dwarves and you're just kind of like, "okay, who are these random bandits?" And then you realize, when the prince finally gets bested by the seven of them, you just see them kind of all lower down their accordions, and then they shrink down to their actual size. And I wish that I had captured that whole movement down because it's just so hilarious. And you can tell the dwarves in this movie are certainly comic relief. I mean, there's quite a few bits of comic relief here. And it's interesting, because it's Tarsem directing, you can actually tell there's a lot of very Indian, kind of corny, cultural jokes, if that makes any sense.

Sarah

Mmm.

Jojo

Like, you're not necessarily saying things in Indian jokes, but I think there's something about Indian... what's the right word? Filmmaking. That kind of pushes that exaggerated corniness, that you definitely catch in this movie as well. And I'll talk a little bit more about the dwarves in a second. But I just love this image and seeing kind of this very acrobatic and very circus-like feature of Ishioka's work, because I think she's also designed some stuff for Cirque as well.

Sarah

That makes sense.

Jojo

So that having that knowledge definitely makes sense here.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Okay, so let's talk about the gold robe. So, like I mentioned before, this is totally impractical. anyone trying to sneak out of the castle would not wear something this bright.

Sarah

Bright yellow! That'll be incognito. [both laugh]

Jojo

Yeah, exactly. But I mean, it's so so beautiful.

Sarah  

Beautiful.

Jojo  

And we'll talk a little bit more about this later on. But there's a really nice foreshadowing moment, because when she wears this giant cloak, Julia Roberts actually wears a very similar silhouette in a cloak shape towards the end of the movie. But hers is in this vibrant blue, and she's kind of riding out at night. And that's when she's trying to actually go after Snow White and kill her. So in this first appearance that we see of Snow White and the gold-- and this is kind of my own notes to myself, so I don't know if this was actually Ishioka's intent. But I love that even though this is obviously not a good way to sneak out of the castle, I love that the gold that she's wearing in this actually sort of represents the sun. And then when Julia Roberts wears a kind of blue cloak to parallel that later on, it's sort of her representing the night.

Sarah  

Ohh.

Jojo  

So there's a very clear, kind of good-versus-evil. And the best thing... and I'll actually-- let's see, okay, so I pulled this photo, because it's her in the yellow cloak when she's going to visit the town. Because she wants to see the conditions of the town that her father has basically ruled over for a long time. And this is her first experience seeing how poor they've gotten, how the Queen has basically taken over the land and taxed them way too much. But again, it's this idea that she's sort of the golden sun in the midst of this really drab place. So I think, again-- very, very symbolic. I love that even if this wasn't Ishioka's intent, that's kind of what we're seeing here.

Mmhmm.

So yes... and still kind of matching with that same color palette, even though it's a much more vibrant and saturate yellow, it still fits in with the rest of the browns in this scene.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So then we go to the first gold dress that we see Julia Roberts in, and this dress is actually recycled quite a bit throughout this movie. And this is where I'm talking about that kind of Tudor draped over-sleeve that she's got, and one of the things that I really love about this-- it's actually even more Elizabethan...

Sarah  

Yup, that point.

Jojo  

...because she's got that really long bodice and kind of that lower neckline. But this is always the color that she wears whenever she enters the mirror world. So her way of entering the mirror-- whenever she says "mirror mirror, who's the fairest of them all," she actually walks through the mirror and then ends up coming up through the water into this deserted wigwam somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

Sarah  

I need to watch this movie, clearly, like... this sounds crazy.

Jojo  

[laughs] Oh, you haven't seen this movie yet?

Sarah  

I was gonna watch it because you're covering it! And then I never got around to it, which happens to me every time.

Jojo  

Oh no, it's good, please do watch it. Like I said, it's one of those stories where it's like, the storyline isn't the strongest.

Sarah  

Sure.

Jojo  

It's very like, okay... kids' Disney, you know, Snow White version. But costumes, man, it's, it's pretty phenomenal. So she's always wearing this gold dress anytime she enters into the mirror. And the way that they've presented the mirror is that it's actually her confronting herself.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

So it's a very kind of Dorian Gray moment where it's like she doesn't want to age. So her way of preserving her youthfulness is actually to trap another soul in this necklace that she has, that she's constantly wearing. And well, you know, I won't really spoil that part of it. But either way, whenever she's facing herself in the mirror, the mirror version of herself that kind of talks to her is this much younger version. And there's this whole joke about how the mirror version doesn't have wrinkles, whereas the real version, or her version, does. So again, every time she enters this kind of holy haven, she's always in this gold. But the interesting thing, again, is that right when we see Snow White kind of entering the town in this golden cloak, this is when we see her in the gold kind of going into her own haven. So it's like they're each kind of going to their own separate outside location outside of their comfort zone that's, you know, maybe their private safety. But they're in the same kind of parallel colors. Moving on.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

So this is the same yellow dress, or gold dress, but I wanted to kind of-- there's a zoomed-in picture of how much pleating they've done on her bodice and on her sleeves, which is incredible. And then, of course, they add even more, that giant Elizabethan ruff to just kind of give her that sort of "head on a plate" effect, which is very common from that time period. So I just wanted to show another quick picture of that.

Sarah  

So cool.

Jojo  

So let's go back to the dwarves really quick. I pulled this really nice vanity shot of them. Because I loved that Ishioka has really given each of them a character. And they don't necessarily-- like, we don't have a one-for-one. You know, it's not the same Seven Dwarves that are in the original Disney movie.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

But there's some crossovers here and there, but I wanted to kind of list how she sort of separated them and it's mostly with their hats, which I love.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So, the guy with the wolf pelt, I kind of equated him with our equivalent of Sneezy, but he's kind of the eccentric one. He just goes around pretty much howling like a wolf all the time.

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

And that's literally his name, so he introduces himself as Wolf. The metal knight's helmet, the guy in the kind of metal armor--or medieval armor--he's Will Grimm, and he's kind of our Doc equivalent.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

So he's kind of like the smart one. The whole joke at the end is that because his last name is Grimm, he ends up being the one to write all the little fairy tales.

Sarah  

Cute!

Jojo  

But he's also kind of our leader. And so, you know, he has the helmet to kind of symbolize that. The French leather beret, this is Grub. And he's... I kind of equated it with Dopey, but he's always the one that's hungry. So every line is him being like, "I want more food," or like... food is always the priority. [both laugh] Or he always has to be eating something. And then the leather cowboy hat, he's our Grumpy, so he's the one that kind of out the gate doesn't trust Snow White. We have Napoleon, who obviously is wearing the Napoleonic bicorn hat. And I kind of saw him as... well, he doesn't... I don't really know if I saw him as an equivalent. He didn't have a specific equivalent for him. I think he was the only one that I was kind of like, "I'm not really sure where he belongs." The leather kind of suede liripipe that we've got going on here-- and a liripipe is basically a giant long stocking cap, essentially.

Sarah  

Ohh!

Jojo  

So it's very much that kind of "Christmas Carol" Scrooge hat.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. Yep.

Jojo  

But it's all made out of leather here, and he is called Half Pipe. And he's kind of our Bashful equivalent. So he's the one that's sort of overly romantic, he's secretly--but not so secretly--in love with Snow White. And he's just constantly trying to trying to woo her, even though she's clearly...

Sarah  

I like how he has wa prince cape?

Sorry, I interrupted you.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah, he's definitely the romantic the entire time.

Sarah  

So cute.

Jojo  

And he gets weirdly jealous when he finds out she's in love with the prince instead of him. [laughs]

Sarah  

Aww.

Jojo  

So yes, and then the squished top hat back here, our little Asian one, he's Chuck. They also call him Chuckles, so he's obviously our Happy. And it's just funny because he doesn't-- he's not happy in the normal sense of the word. He does this kind of maniacal sort of crazy laugh a lot of the time. [laughs] But he's always laughing, so. So yes, I love that she's kind of given a hat to sort of symbolize each of these different dwarves and their characters.

Sarah  

They look great.

Jojo  

Okay, so that's all I had to say about that. I just, I wanted to spend some time on the dwarves, they're just adorable.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

Okay, so then there's a ballroom scene. And of course, the Queen has thrown this giant ball because her plan-- because she's run out of money, instead of just taxing the people which she has also done, she decides that she's going to marry the prince. Who somehow... because he's been basically robbed by these dwarf bandits. And so he ends up in the Queen's court totally in his underwear.

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

And this happens multiple times, he gets robbed by these same dwarves like three or four times. So it's this really funny running joke throughout the entire movie. But of course, when the Queen sees him, her... you know, her instant thought is, "great. This is a way to solve all my money problems. I'm just going to get married to this prince." And of course, he's not in love with her. He's in love with Snow White. But she holds this giant ball to announce to the public-- she's basically forcing him into engagement with her, right. So at this ball, the idea is that they're constantly changing partners, so it's very much like a speed dating kind of thing. So you dance with one partner, then you switch to the next partner and kind of shift around. And each of the ball members... I didn't pull too many images of the ball, just because I didn't have enough images, and it was too many. So I wanted to pull this particular dress for Snow White. One of the things that Ishioka talked about was that the swan wings almost... and actually, this was not necessarily Ishioka's words, it was someone else kind of making the suggestion, that it was almost like her wish to escape the cruel queen. So that's why she was represented by a bird. Everyone in the scene is actually in some form of cream, so she doesn't actually stand out. And the intention of this is that she's trying to sneak into this ball. So she's hiding, so the Queen doesn't recognize her. But of course, the prince ends up getting paired with her very last minute, even though the queen is trying to dance with him. And he ends up, because he wants to talk to her so long, he spends this whole dance basically pushing other suitors out of the way.

Sarah  

Aww.

Jojo  

So he just continues to dance with her every time they turn around to switch partners.

Sarah  

Cute.

Jojo  

So yes, she ends up getting banished into the woods. So this is where she basically gets exiled out of the kingdom. But instead of sending the Huntsman she actually sends Nathan Lane who's, you know, her kind of bumbling cockroach assistant. So of course he doesn't kill her, but basically she ends up in the forest without her wings, in her swan head, in this beautiful white lace gown. And you can see here, there's all this detail in her bodice and her incredible lace gloves she's got on.

Sarah  

I was staring at those. Those are beautiful.

Jojo  

Yeah, and the sleeves. It's just incredible.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Okay, I don't think I have it. But there's-- right after this, when she falls in the snow in white, is when the Queen hears back from Nathan Lane. And she is dressed in this head to toe kind of cream night gown.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

So again, parallel colors. I'm going to keep mentioning this, but... not very practical in terms of the story plot, but very much about the symbolic, you know, tying in of all the characters, so she's really looking at the big picture very well.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Okay, moving on to the peacock dress. So again, this is that same ball scene. She's the only one in the red. And I think I've got a bigger picture. Yep, there it is.

Sarah  

Ohh!

Jojo  

It's so beautiful. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

So, you know, obviously there's a lot of Rococo, 18th century, late Georgian era silhouette to this particular dress. But one of the things that Ishioka talked a lot about was that every one of the Queen's costumes has some sort of jagged or sharp edge, something to basically indicate that she's evil, you know.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Everything about her is very kind of sharp and pokey, and you don't want to get close to her.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And so that was very, very well done. And I think she was very successful with that. And also the fact that the Queen is constantly this very vain character and so the peacock feathers definitely helps emphasize that as well.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Okay, moving on. [laughs]

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

So you can kind of see the peacock feathers are actually the back of the Queen's dress, but I wanted to pull-- this is the one image I pulled of one of the ball dancers. But like, again, each of them was supposed to be some sort of an animal, but like, look at this costume! I don't even know what it is. It looks so gross.

Sarah  

It looks pornographic! Like, it looks like...

Jojo  

It does! [both laugh]

Sarah  

...you know what it looks like.

Jojo  

YUP! But I pulled this because again, he's like the fourth or fifth, you know, pairing or guy that's basically switched to dance with the queen. And she's of course waiting for the prince to show up.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

[laughs] But it's all these gross looking other characters.

Sarah  

Is it a walrus? Like, are those tusks coming down?

Jojo  

Yeah, I think this is supposed to be a walrus.

Sarah  

Okay.

Jojo  

But yeah, this particular shot. This was like all I could capture. Because there are no pictures of this online, of course. [both laugh]

Sarah  

That's... well, that's a thing... that I'm looking at. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah, but you know, you'll see that-- and I wish I could pull other images, I'll probably pull a couple extra to put on the YouTube page or something. But there's a couple other pictures of just-- there's a woman who's dressed as a sheep. And she's got these like, giant sheep's horns. And then there's a unicorn and like, it's incredible. I can't even describe the amount of sheer costumes that Ishioka must have designed for the scene. And all the other scenes. Okay, moving on.

Sarah  

Oh my goodness.

Jojo  

So then Julia Roberts has a green dress. And again, just sheer gorgeousness. I don't have too many notes about this one. But again, that same idea of the ragged edges and making everything look really sharp. This is when she's having breakfast with the prince and basically is trying to convince him that he needs to marry her, and that they're going to have this wedding whether he likes it or not. But one of the things I wanted to focus on was just, oh my gosh, this beautiful open petal that she's created, right in the front. And it just goes to kind of show how creative Ishioka was with the silhouettes that she used, because you're not really seeing this in any kind of history book, you know. Like, yes, you're seeing the silhouette, but just the ways that she reutilizes fabric and creates such structure and like-- it's almost like origami that she's created here. And she's very good at that.

Sarah  

She is really-- she was the queen of fabric manipulation and structure, and like, making fabric look the way you've never seen it look before. Like, really manipulating it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Like, this doesn't have any trim on it, you know, but it's so visually interesting.

Jojo  

Yeah! Yeah, ways to really create texture that we keep talking about without necessarily needing to have embroidery to showcase that.

Sarah  

Yeah, or crystals...

Jojo  

Even though she also has embroidery too.

Sarah  

...or spangles or whatever.

Jojo  

Yeah. So again, another color pairing that she's really really good at, I wanted to showcase that the prince is in this almost really deep purple, which he's in quite a lot of the movie. And then just in contrast with the green, she really used this kind of secondary color compliment.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Okay, so this is the only other gold dress that she's got on. And I wanted to showcase the back because again, just I love a good pleating. But I mean, look at that. It's her night robe! This is like her sleeping gown.

Sarah  

Amazing.

Jojo  

So this is when she's actually about to drug the prince because of course he's refused to love her. So she finds a potion to basically force him to fall in love with her, and she asks the mirror for this. And of course, the mirror warns her that there's going to be danger, you know, working or playing with black magic. So she ignores that and then ends up giving him this drug, and he drinks it, and she finds out after he's already drank it that she basically gave him a puppy love potion. So he basically ends up becoming like a human dog.

Sarah  

Oh no.

Jojo  

He starts licking her on the face, he starts jumping on her on the bed, and like-- so it's this weird... and she's like, "whatever, as long as you marry me" kind of thing, "because I just need your money." But again, just focusing on how beautiful the detail is in the work that she's created. And like, she only has the pleating on this train and this tail, and everywhere else is just immaculate. And I think she's also got some really nice knife pleats on her shoulders as well.

Sarah  

Beautiful.

Jojo  

So then we go to the wedding gown. One of the things I wanted to say about this dress: she's only ever in it for... I don't know. It's really not very long, it's maybe 10 minutes, not even.

Really? Oh, lord.

Which is so sad, because of course she comes to the wedding, and at this point Snow White has been living with the the dwarves. And she's been training, and she's learning how to fight and defend herself. Again, a very independent version of no white... Snow White, wow. "No White." [both laugh]

Sarah  

No white. No white allowed.

Jojo  

So Snow White finds out about the prince's marriage and basically goes and kidnaps him and tries to break the spell. So she shows up at this giant party, which we'll see some more pictures of the ensemble because they're also incredible. But she shows up at this party with this giant dress, walks in, finds the prince missing, walks back out. And that's the end of the scene. [laughs]

Sarah  

Oh lord.

Jojo  

I was like, "oh man." But one of the things I wanted to say about this dress is that apparently it weighed over 60 pounds.

Sarah  

[gasps]

Jojo  

And it was eight feet in diameter.

Sarah  

Oh my god!

Jojo  

And apparently it was so heavy and just so huge that Julia Roberts actually pulled a thigh muscle when she tried to turn in it! I was like, "wait, WHAT?"

Sarah  

Maybe that's why it was only on screen for 10 minutes, or less? [both laugh]

Jojo  

So crazy, but apparently this dress, in addition to Snow White's later wedding dress, which we will see, were all made up of up to 35 yards of fabric.

Sarah  

Oh my god, so expensive.

Jojo  

I was like, "that's insane!"

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

But again, I mean, everything was-- like, 400 costumes custom made, this is definitely one of them.

Sarah  

And she doesn't half-ass any of them.

Jojo  

No.

Sarah  

Eiko goes all the way.

Jojo  

Definitely not, there's no sacrifice of quality in any of these.

Sarah  

Nope.

Jojo  

Okay, anyways, moving on.

Sarah  

Amazing.

Jojo  

I'm talking too long about all of these, these are just so great. But this is the wedding scene. So these are all of her guests from the other royal, wherever...

Sarah  

Wow, cool!

Jojo  

...in the land. And again, just looking at the beauty of all of these costumes. One of the things that I will point out, which I think is so funny, is like-- at some point when the the dwarves and Snow White crash this party to kidnap the prince, you know, because they're all dwarves they all end up squeezing themselves under all the women's skirts to just hide themselves. And so this-- just this one lady that I'll point out, she actually has this giant bustle, and you find out one of the dwarves ends up hiding under her bustle to try and you know, stay hidden. And then she walks away from the bustle and the bustle just stays there! [laughs]

Sarah  

Ha!

Jojo  

And you realize that it's just a detachable, decorative bustle. [laughs]

Sarah  

That's cool!

Jojo  

So then you just see the door like pop out, and he's like, "oh, shoot." And so he tries to follow her and basically bumps into her back. But it's just this hilarious moment that she's like, made these very functional, but beautiful costumes.

Sarah  

I love it.

Jojo  

So just some other close ups, like...

Sarah  

Oh wow.

Jojo  

...how much color, like, ugh! It's so beautiful. And even the wigs.

Sarah  

That's cool.

Jojo  

And then she's almost got a pin cushion hat.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

And even his split hair, which is just so crazy. And then again, more pictures of...

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

...just the-- I mean, these are ensemble characters, like they're essentially background, and she's just put so much work into it. Okay!

Sarah  

Ooh.

Jojo  

So then moving on to Snow White's wedding dress. And I have a couple images of this. But again, just look at the sheer detail of that smocking.

Sarah  

[appreciatively] Ugh.

Jojo  

It's just so intricate. And like, I don't know if she did this by hand, or if she had a machine to do this, but like... so crazy.

Sarah  

So crisp!

Jojo  

And then just the sleeves that she's got. One of the things she talked about was that at the beginning, she's very much about connecting with nature, but by the very end, she wanted this wedding dress to be very much like she was a present, kind of a wrapped present.

Sarah  

Aww!

Jojo  

And so you'll see that when I turn her around...

Sarah  

Oh my god!

Jojo  

...so that's the back of the dress, it literally is like just a giant bow on the back of her dress...

Sarah  

I love it.

Jojo  

...which I love.

Sarah  

That's so pretty.

Jojo  

So I'm going to focus a little bit on her and the prince's-- this is probably one of the only times I'll talk about the prince's outfit, because it's just so beautiful. But she's in a lot of kind of blues and golden yellows, or oranges throughout this movie. And those are the two color palettes that Ishioka has kind of stuck to with her. And I wanted to focus on this sleeve because I mean... like, look at that ribbon that she's attached just on the bottom of that sleeve.

Sarah  

Wow.

Jojo  

It's just so incredible. Like, every inch of her costume is just coated in detail and texture.

Sarah  

I love the lace. The lace is so geometric looking and delicate at the same time.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So pretty.

Jojo  

Yeah. And it's like, you can tell she's chosen some very particular things. Like, it's not like this is lace you could just buy off wherever online.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

She's clearly made some very intentional choices.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Yeah. So just some more pictures of the back, I wanted to focus on the back of the prince's as well, because again, just even this ribbon is just so luxe looking. You know, and it's definitely-- it doesn't look like... there's a lot of ribbon that can look like this, but a cheaper version of it.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So clearly this is sort of a notch up. And then there's the front of his jacket.

Sarah  

Oh, I like that.

Jojo  

Me too. Like, all the little fringe. There's just a lot of movement, which I love. And then they have a really funny Indian-style dance at the end, where it's very clearly Indian music or Indian inspired music, but then it's just them dancing to the Indian music. So, I'm just picturing him with all these tassels moving back and forth. Okay, just another picture of the dress with her dwarves around her.

Sarah  

Pretty.

Jojo  

But you can see how vibrant the color is. And I think that's something that Ishioka was really good at, and kind of did magic with a lot of her costumes, because even in "The Fall," it's very similar. Like, she looks very much at the background that they're up against, and then really pushes the vibrancy of her costumes.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Okay, and then I think this is my last one. So the final picture I wanted to focus on was just a picture of one of the guards. Because again, it's such a minor thing, but even the guards have so much detail. Like, she's given them this very kind of fish-like mask, almost. And then they're just in this hardened kind of black leather for the rest of it. So yes, that's all I had. I mean, there's so many other beautiful costumes to look at in this movie that I just don't have the time to cover, but just the level of impeccable precision that she's put into every single costume is so amazing. So RIP Ishioka, we wish we could see more of your work and celebrate more of your work with the world. But yeah, this was just such a beautiful final project. And you know, what a huge feat for her and Tarsem to be able to work on all of these projects together, and be able to do some really beautiful work.

Sarah  

It's always so cool when you find out that they work with the same director over and over. And I-- it's always like, oh, that's really nice. Like, they like each other and they collaborate well together. It's always nice to find those people in your professional life, that you're like, "we really come up with good stuff when we're together." You know, that's always cool.

Jojo  

Yeah, I think Tarsem mentioned that too. He was like, "once I found Ishioka, I couldn't work with anyone else."

Sarah  

I don't blame him!

Jojo  

And I was like, "Yeah, that totally makes sense!" [laughs]

Sarah  

She was a legend.

Jojo  

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah  

Unparalleled.

Jojo  

And so humble too. I think that was one of the things a lot of the actors were saying. They were like, "she didn't talk very much, and she didn't have a lot of strong opinions. She was always just smiling." Like, all the time. And I was like, "Oh, that's just so wonderful."

Sarah  

That's... that's so nice to hear. Because you've, I mean-- a lot of us have... you know, like, "don't meet your heroes." You know, a lot of famous people are not nice people. So...

Jojo  

It's true.

Sarah  

...it's really reassuring to hear that somebody you admire was a was a good person, as well as being very talented.

Jojo  

Yeah, that's usually how it is. I feel like those are the people we respect more too. It's like, when they're so good at their art, they're totally and fully invested in their art. So it's not about the fame and receiving the recognition. It's about like, "Am I making something that's beautiful that represents who I am, and what I want to give to the world?" kind of thing.

Sarah  

Yeah, it should be about the work. It shouldn't be about you, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah. Yeah. There's too much ego in our industry. We don't we don't need more of it, if it doesn't have to be there.

Sarah  

Amen to that. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Cool. Well, that was our episode for fairy tales.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

I'm super excited. This was a fun episode to watch and record and pull together images for.

Sarah  

This was a really fun one. I have a feeling this will be a theme that we do several times, because there's just so much fun to be had.

Jojo  

Yeah, there's so many fairy tales out there, too.

Sarah  

Yeah, exactly.

Jojo  

Well, thank you so much for joining us, everyone. We're back to our kind of regularly scheduled movie coverage. But yeah, keep sending us suggestions. I know, we've gotten a few more suggestions already in our comments. So we'll add them to the list. And we'll try to get to them as soon as we can.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But thanks so much for listening. And don't forget to subscribe if you haven't already. And leave us a review if you can. We're still trying to donate $1 for every review that we get, and we've gotten some really nice ones.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, we really appreciate all of them, and I've been-- like, they make me... they touch my heart. Every time they come in, I get so excited. So thank you so much.

Jojo  

It's always so great to hear from people who are listening.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, I... you know, when we started this, I was like, "I think this is gonna be great. I think we have something, a really good idea." And you know, it's always really validating to know that other people actually like it. And it's not just us talking to each other and a void, you know.

Jojo  

[laughs] It's true. It's true. It feels like we are here with a group of other people and not just the two of us talking to one another.

Sarah  

Yeah! We want it to be a real dialogue between us and the people who listen, you know, because like we said, we are professionals, but we're not experts. We want to hear other people's opinions and you know, your views, and we want to hear about... we just wanna talk about costumes with you, because it's our favorite!

Jojo  

It's true. It's true. And as artists, I think we, you know, we're constantly learning. So it's like, yeah, we're not experts. We know a lot of stuff, but also we're always learning from from other people too.

Sarah  

Yeah, definitely.

Jojo  

So yeah. Cool!

Sarah  

Cool.

Jojo  

Thank you, everyone. So I'm Jojo.

Sarah  

I'm Sarah.

Jojo  

Thanks for joining us on The Costume Plot.

Sarah  

We'll see you on the next one! Bye!

Jojo  

Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo:

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah:

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 11: Dickinson with Bronwen Burton

Please consult these Instagram slideshows for accompanying images: Dickinson part 1, part 2

Both:  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo:  

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah:  

and I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers.

Jojo:  

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Sarah  

Hello!

Jojo  

Hello!

Sarah  

Welcome back to The Costume Plot.

Jojo  

We're so excited.

Sarah  

So today is a special episode because we have a special guest for the first time. Jojo and I know her professionally, she's the shop manager and resident costume witch at Fullerton College, and you might know her from her YouTube channel Queen DeLuxe. It's Bronwen Burton.

Bronwen  

Hello, friends.

Jojo  

Welcome, Bronwen!

Bronwen  

I'm so excited to be here.

Jojo  

Yeah, thank you for being our first guest.

Sarah  

Thank you so much for doing this.

Bronwen  

I'm super duper excited.

Sarah  

We're really excited.

Jojo  

So we are going to be focusing on a movie today. But we also had a couple questions for our guest artist, which is something that will be a common theme for all of our guests artists, as well. But we wanted to start with a show that Bronwyn said she wanted to cover. So we're really excited to be talking about the show "Dickinson" today. So... Oh, go ahead.

Sarah  

It's so interesting, because like when I was talking to people about being guests, I originally envisioned our guest episodes as not even being about TV show or movies. But then when I would talk to people about they'd be like, "well, I want to do this, and I want to do this." and like, oh... it makes sense. You want to do the show. [both laugh] That makes sense.

Jojo  

that's what we've started.

Sarah  

Yeah, that's exciting, though, that people want to join us in our thing that we do. That's... I like... yeah, I'm excited. So anyway.

Bronwen  

yeah, I am super excited. This is like, I feel like Dickinson is one of my like new obsessions. So.

Sarah  

I'm so glad to hear about it.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Jojo  

you've definitely been talking about it for a while. And I finally got to see the first two episodes. But of course, I'm excited to hear about your thoughts on it. Now that you've seen the whole... well, now in season two, right?

Bronwen  

Yes. And I'm not even sure if-- they were slowly releasing them. So I forgot to check to see if they're all... have been released, or if there's still a couple more. But it's a super interesting show. I'm super into it. But I've been reading a lot of things online and either people love it, or they hate it. There's no in between.

Sarah  

It's kind of anachronistic, right? Like they're doing some modern stuff.

Bronwen  

Super-- super, and super not anachronistic. So it's both. It's so weird.  

Sarah  

People get really spicy about that.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Jojo  

They definitely do.

Bronwen  

I'm super into it. So it was created by Alena Smith, who is a playwright. And she also has written for some TV. So I think that's why I'm enjoying it, since it's sort of got a playwriting kind of thing happening. So it's definitely got some theater-like background, but I think that's why I'm into it.

Sarah  

We love that.

Bronwen  

Yeah. The costume designer is John Dunn, who is-- he did "Vinyl" and "Boardwalk Empire". So he's done some big stuff.

Jojo  

Oh, I love that show. [laughs]

Bronwen  

And they had 40 people in their costume department. So it's kind of like a big...

Sarah  

Wow!

Bronwen  

Yeah. Which... I know, because you guys were talking about "Bridgerton"...

Jojo  

That's a really good size.

Bronwen  

...how many people did they have on "Bridgerton" again?

Sarah  

I don't remember.

Jojo  

It was like 208 or something like that.

Bronwen  

But like, this show is so much smaller than "Bridgerton". So I was like, "wow."

Jojo  

Right.

Bronwen  

They have a lot of people working on it. At any rate...

Sarah  

Well, “Bridgerton," they did it-- it was like-- it took them three years or something, didn't it? Like it-- it was in production for forever.

Bronwen  

Okay, I don't know--

Jojo  

Well, in terms of building, it was only five months.

Sarah  

Oh, really? Oh, yeah. I was making that up. [laughs]

Jojo  

It was a really, really short time period. [all laugh] I was like, "five months? That's like, nothing."

Bronwen  

Sorry, I don't have any of that information. But--

Sarah  

That's okay.

Bronwen  

And then, so I read an article with the costume designer, and he... so what did he say? He said... so, "Dickinson" is like a coming of age story about Emily Dickinson. So it's sort of based in reality, but then they don't-- we don't have a whole bunch of information about Emily Dickinson. So there's certain things we know, all the way through. And they hit those points, but then they're kind of making up the stuff that's in between.

Sarah  

Ooh!

Bronwen  

So and-- like, telling that story, I guess, through through the actual things that happened with storytelling. So it's super interesting. So when you look... when I look at her history, they're hitting all those points, so it's fun. Like, now it makes me want to read like all about Emily Dickinson. So, I don't know.

Sarah  

This is gonna make me want to watch the show for sure.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Bronwen  

Right. So it's kind of-- but like, for me, it's all about the costumes. So that's why I started watching the show. Like, I'm not an Emily Dickinson fan. So here we are, I might become one.

Jojo  

Yeah. [all laugh]

Sarah  

That's awesome.

Bronwen  

Yeah. So let's see, the costumes are deeply researched. So they're really historically accurate. I'm-- I was surprised because I thought they were going to be more inaccurate or anachronistic. But yeah, I feel like they did play with some color. But they're pretty... pretty right on. When I get to pictures I will show you. So he said that he wanted to sort of fix the warped idea that Americans have with the 1850s and 1860s. Because that's when it takes place. Because that's when we have all of those sepia toned photographs from the Civil War. So a lot of people think of it as this sort of dark and dingy thing. But actually there's lots and lots of color that's happening during this time, because this is when the new dyes were becoming available. So there's lots of bright colors and there's lots of plaid, and tone-on-tone, and pattern-with-pattern is happening. So he really didn't want it to be gloomy. He wanted it to be exciting. So that's what he said about it. So I guess I can go into a little bit of history of Emily Dickinson. So she was born in 1830. She lives with a middle class family. She has an older brother and a younger sister. So older brother Austin, younger brother-- or, younger sister Lavinia. And then a mom and a dad. And then her best friend is Sue, who is her best friend and her love interest. So...

Sarah  

Oh!

Bronwen  

Yeah. And Sue ends up marrying her brother because of lots of reasons. But her... basically, she ends up being an orphan, with no money and nowhere to stay. So her brother ends up marrying her and they live next door in a big old mansion. It's lovely.

Jojo  

Like you do. [laughs]

Bronwen  

Like you do.

Sarah  

Oh, to be best friends with adjoining mansions! [all laugh]

Bronwen  

Right?

Jojo  

Just a walk away.

Bronwen  

But at any rate, this show is weird, and I really like it. So I'm going to start, I guess I'm going to share my screen so you guys can start seeing...

Sarah  

We would love to.

Jojo  

Yeah! I'm really excited about this show too. Like I said, I only just started watching the first two episodes. But now that you said the playwright is, you know, a theater playwright, I was like, "Oh, that makes so much sense." There's a lot of just really nice beats in the actual-- I mean, just in the first two episodes, I think, that are very theatrical.

Bronwen  

Yes.

Jojo  

So I'm excited.

Bronwen  

Yeah, I want to know what you think about it.

Jojo  

Yeah, it's definitely-- well, and it's funny too, because I think I'm kind of like you, once I started watching this show, I was kind of like, "Oh, is this really what her life was like?" And I started going on a little rabbit hole of, who was Emily Dickinson, and were these things accurate? And how much of this is actually in our... what's the right word? Like, how much of this do we actually know about her life? And even the white dress at the beginning. Which, you know, I'll let you talk a little bit more about but I was like, "Oh, there's actually a story behind this!"

Bronwen  

Yeah! So okay, so here is the white dress. So she starts out in this white dress. So this is an actual picture of Emily Dickinson, and here's our actress.

Sarah  

Haley Steinfeld, right?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Bronwen  

Yes. Yes. So they actually look a lot alike. Or, they've made her look like Emily Dickinson. So I think that's-- it's really nice to see, they they got the ugly middle part of the 1850s going. For sure. The hair is surprisingly right, a lot of the time.

Sarah  

That's awesome.

Bronwen  

She does have her... yeah, she does have her hair down a lot, but it's okay. She's a free spirit.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Bronwen  

So the white dress, they have her start in this white dress. Because of this dress that is an extant example. So it is her dress. She started wearing white at the end of her life almost exclusively, which is pretty weird for the period. But this one, of course, is older. It's the end of her life where-- as we are talking about, kind of like her mid 20s.

Sarah  

Was there a reason that she started wearing white?

Bronwen  

There probably is but I don't, like...

Sarah  

We don't know.

Bronwen  

I think she-- I don't-- I didn't get too far down that rabbit hole.

Sarah  

Right.

Bronwen  

There was so much to research.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Bronwen  

So, but-- they would, in the show-- they do a seance and stuff, where everyone wears white to the seance, so they can be pure and connect with spirits and stuff. So it might have some spiritual wisdom connected to it. But it's nice that-- so they've basically taken the dress that Emily is wearing in the still, and almost recreated it in white, to sort of represent the white dress, or the white stuff, that she ends up wearing at the end of her life. So I think that's nice. And it's really pretty. Let's see if I can make this bigger for you guys. Like, you can see like the gathering and the smocking.

Sarah  

Ooh, lovely.

Jojo  

Yeah, it's really beautiful.

Bronwen  

Like, the detail that they're doing.

Jojo  

Even the sleeves. There's a really nice detail on the sleeves, too.

Bronwen  

Yeah, it's... yeah. And it's like the detail that is in the original dress. They kind of recreated that over here.

Jojo  

Yeah, so beautiful.

Bronwen  

Like, it kind of picks up over the under sleeve. It is so pretty. And like this teeny, eeny weeny piping around the neck.

Sarah  

Ooh.

Bronwen  

I'm like, into all the-- of course, the construction detail, so...

Sarah  

Of course! I love piping.

Bronwen  

All right... me too!

Jojo  

It's so beautiful.

Bronwen  

So that's what she starts out in. And then we got all the other-- her other people. I wanted to talk about Sue. So this is Emily in her white dress, and then Sue... her last sister has died. Basically her entire family dies slowly, one by one. Super tragic.

Sarah  

1850s, am I right? [all laugh]

Bronwen  

Right. So she is in full mourning here. But she's super poor. So she doesn't have a lot of different-- like, the Victorian era has all these rules about what you're supposed to be wearing when, and what they're supposed to look like, and how dark they are and all this stuff. But she basically wears this really dark navy blue dress the entire time, because she doesn't have an extensive wardrobe. But this whole scene is really nicely shot. I don't know... Jojo, do you agree? Like, I love this whole scene.

Jojo  

[laughs] Yeah, I do love that whole scene. She's like, in the tree.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Again, this is only in the first episode. But this is when Emily's in the tree, and then she comes in in black. And she's in the tree in white.

Bronwen  

Yeah, and this whole, I don't know... you don't know that they're kind of lovers before this. So you just think that they're best friends and she's consoling her, but also mad that she's gonna be marrying her brother. And so it's like, really, all this conflict is happening. And so it's really interesting to have Emily all in white, and then Sue all in black. So this dress is lovely, too. It's really hard to see all the details. But poor Sue.

Jojo  

Sue does have a really sad life.  [laughs]

Bronwen  

She does! Here's a picture of the two of them together in real life. So...

Sarah  

So is it from real life, that they were in love?

Bronwen  

They don't know for sure, for sure.

Sarah  

Oh, okay.

Bronwen  

Because we obviously weren't there, but there are a lot of letters, she wrote her extensively. It's almost like she would write her a letter instead of walking across to go to her house.

Sarah  

Ooh.

Bronwen  

So there's like, tons of letters of them corresponding.

Sarah  

I see.

Bronwen  

And there are definite overtones, so...

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

I think I also read that there was quite a few of her poems that were edited, to like...

Bronwen  

Yes.

Jojo  

...because a lot of them were dedicated to Susan.

Sarah  

Aww.

Jojo  

And then it was edited out that they were dedicated. Because, you know, obviously that was not kosher.

Bronwen  

Yeah, that whole thing was really interesting. Like, they didn't... they didn't publish her complete poems until 1955.

Sarah  

Wow!

Bronwen  

So like, all these, yeah, all of her poems were published, but they were edited and certain things taken out. And so the-- I guess, as respect for the family? So we haven't had-- we didn't have her full poems until 1955. Which I thought was interesting.

Jojo  

A whole century later!

Sarah  

Yeah!

Bronwen  

I know! Crazy, right?

Jojo  

Pretty crazy.

Bronwen  

So this is a picture of the main characters, sort of. So Emily in the red, Lavinia over here, her younger sister. So she wears a lot of florals and ruffles. It's kind of more of the, I guess, traditional Victorian gal in at least the first season. And then this is her brother, Austin, and Sue here. And Austin always has the craziest 1850s hair, and I'm here for it. [all laugh]

Sarah  

I love that kind of-- like, rumpled poet hair, Byron thing.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So funny.

Bronwen  

And then it kind of is on all the guys because it was super popular at the time. So but I-- and they usually don't really go for it in TV. And so it's really fun to see it going full out. Lovely.

Jojo  

It still looks very boyish and charming. And I feel like we're entering back into that kind of phase in our culture, of appreciating that look. [laughs]

Bronwen  

That's true.

Sarah  

We talked with Emma Fraser, the writer, about Harry Styles, and how he...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...really looks sort of like a 19th century poet a lot of the time. [laughs]

Bronwen  

I think, you know... we all have COVID hair too, like we all have a little bit more hair. [all laugh]

Sarah  

Right?

Jojo  

The length is no longer unacceptable, I guess?

Sarah  

I feel like-- I see my guy friends on Zoom for trivia once a week. And every week their hair is longer, and they all are looking like Lin Manuel as Alexander Hamilton. [all laugh] Longer and longer.

Jojo  

Like, just keep letting it grow out.

Bronwen  

It's true. So, okay, let's see. Alright, so this... is it the second episode? No, the first episode still. They introduce Death, because of this poem right here: "because I could not stop for Death, he kindly stopped for me, the carriage held but just ourselves and immortality."

Sarah  

Ooh.

Bronwen  

So she actually talks about how she sees Death all the time. And they go for carriage rides, and they talk and hang out. So in the show, they actually have a spectral carriage that comes to pick her up. And this is her imaginary dress that she wears to go see Death in. So a lot of the show is in her imagination.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Bronwen  

Yeah, Sarah's mouth is standing wide open. [all laugh]

Sarah  

I need to watch this!

Bronwen  

Isn't it gorgeous?

Jojo  

Even just the first two episodes! I was like, "WHAT?"

Bronwen  

It's SO good. I'm glad you're liking it, because it's super weird. But I'm into it.

Sarah  

I love weird! I need more things to be weird. [all laugh]

Jojo  

This-- this is a good balance of really, again, I think like Bronwen said, honoring the story. And because we have so little information, there is so much for them to kind of run with. But they do a lot of really cool-- and again, I think Bronwen and I have had this conversation a few times, about the difference between this kind of anachronism and the "Bridgerton" anachronism. Where... this show, I feel like they kind of intentionally-- you kind of accept that this world is not... it's a weird in-between of the period and modern. Because I think one of the things, actually, I told Bronwen a while back, was that with "Bridgerton" all the music that they played in the background was modern music, but played with classical instruments.

Sarah  

Yup.

Jojo  

Which I'm... I'm not a huge fan of that. But maybe that's just because I've had classical training and I just... I feel like that needs to stay there. But I-- you know, that's my opinion. But with this one Bronwen had mentioned that all the music was very intentionally modern and contemporary. And that was actually one of the first things that I was listening for, Bronwen, when I was watching the first two episodes. I was like, "Yes, this is a good balance of matching the modern with the period." Like, I can still get into the period. But I understand that it's with modern language and modern slang and modern, you know, music that they've incorporated into that. So I do love that about this show. And I think that's one of the things that makes it so charming, is that you're still able to enjoy the story while still using a contemporary lens.

Unknown Speaker  

Yeah, and there's a lot of contemporary language that happens also.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Bronwen  

So like, all the young people on the show end up using very contemporary language. Which is interesting since we're then like putting on top of that, totally... Emily Dickinson's poems, right layered on top of that, it's super interesting. And I'm-- I dig it all the time. I don't know. They're like-- they also project her poems in her handwriting on the screen as she's either thinking them or saying them out loud.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Bronwen  

To connect, so you have a visual and the sound that it's making. So it's-- I'm loving it. But at any rate, this dress is so gorgeous. I can't even handle it. So...

Sarah  

I love it.

Jojo  

Such luscious fabric.

Bronwen  

It is... they said it was charmeuse in this Vogue article, so...

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

Ooh. Yeah, I love the the upper part of the bodice too.

Bronwen  

It is pleated so nicely. Yeah. So it's like super tiny little pleats all the way up.

Sarah  

Is that Wiz Khalifa?!

Bronwen  

Yes, he's Death! [all laugh] He's like, so cool and so...

Sarah  

That's amazing!

Jojo  

I love the way they portrayed Death too.

Bronwen  

He is so perfect. Like, I can't...

Sarah  

He looks a little bit like Dr. Facilier, from "Princess and the Frog".

Bronwen  

A little bit.

Jojo  

I can see that.

Bronwen  

It's a little... it's a little more... less cartoony.

Sarah  

Well, yes. [laughs]

Bronwen  

I mean...

Sarah  

The top hat was giving me that vibe.

Bronwen  

Yes. And maybe the little green glasses, I guess.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Bronwen  

But yeah, he's he's very dapper. And he... the carriage itself is beautiful too. So every time the carriage comes, I'm like, "Yes!" Okay, so what else do we need to talk about? The ball. So they have a house party, where all of their friends come over in ball gowns, because like you do.

Sarah  

Lovely.

Bronwen  

The parents go out of town for the the week-- the weekend, or the night, or something. And so all of their-- her friends come over and they're hanging out. So this is everybody in their ball gowns, which are... look how accurate they are! [laughs] I'm always shocked.

Jojo  

I know, so beautiful.

Sarah  

Those are really pretty.

Bronwen  

Right?

Jojo  

I do also love that they've kind of placed the mean girl in this very specific color. [laughs] So the girl in the green is kind of like the mean girl of this season.

Bronwen  

At least in the first sesason.

Jojo  

I mean, you can tell from her stance too. I think this was the last episode I watched.

Bronwen  

Okay.

Jojo  

It was their ball scene.

Bronwen  

It's a really interesting episode because they end up-- she has that full... Emily has a full moment where she is seeing a bee and she dances with it. Like, a hallucination.

Jojo  

Because they take opium.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Oh my god!

Bronwen  

So, full hallucination in the middle of their living room. I don't know. It's crazy. So they're dressed to the nines at this little house party. And this mean girl is... she has an interesting backstory. So she's in love with Austin, the brother, and they ended up not getting married because she he marries Sue, and she's kind of sad about it.

Jojo  

Very sad about it.

Bronwen  

And then she... her husband dies, she ends up having a baby and her husband dies, of course, because 1850s, and... [all laugh]

Sarah  

Everybody dies.

Bronwen  

So in this episode, they're doing like a full on Victorian... line dance. And then it moves into hip hop dancing at the-- like, halfway through. As the night gets crazier.

Jojo  

They're like, twerking in it or something, aren't they? [all laugh]

Bronwen  

Yeah!

Jojo  

...at some point.

Sarah  

How do you twerk with all those skirts on.

Bronwen  

No problem, man!

Jojo  

I know. That's great.

Sarah  

How do you, like... you can't even see your booty under a skirt.

Jojo  

Like, they're twerking and then I think they're also doing the Doogie? I don't know.

Sarah  

The Dougie?

Jojo  

I'm... yes. [all laugh]

Sarah  

"Teach me how to Dougie," that one?

Jojo  

I'm born in the wrong century, Sarah! [laughs]

Sarah  

The Doogie Howser, you know? [all laugh]

Bronwen  

So Sarah, I was like... I wanted to bring this whole thing up, but I didn't want to name all the dances wrong. So thanks, Jojo, for doing that for me. [all laugh]

Jojo  

I did it for you, Bronwen.

Bronwen  

Thank you so much. So I don't look so old and...

Sarah  

Oh my god.

Jojo  

I have no excuse either, 'cause I really-- I'm like, I never learned the Dougie, but like... [laughs]

Sarah  

I honestly couldn't tell you what the Dougie is. I just know that it's a song and I know it's a dance. Is it like, this one...? [demonstrates] [all laugh]

Bronwen  

This is gonna be good for...

Jojo  

Something like that. I don't know. [all laugh] I I don't even know how to pronounce it right, so... you know.

Bronwen  

Alright, so here's...

Jojo  

We're about on the same page.

Bronwen  

...This is what Emily is wearing at that in that scene, in that episode. It's blue.

Sarah  

Pretty, pretty.

Bronwen  

Isn't it pretty? Like, cartridge pleated and has all this ruching up here.

Jojo  

All that smocking!

Bronwen  

And then her sister wears it in season two as a hand me down.

Sarah  

Love that!

Bronwen  

Right? So is I thought that was...

Jojo  

So realistic!

Bronwen  

So realistic. So cute.

Sarah  

Awesome.

Jojo  

It's cool seeing that up close, too. Because you can see how it's-- they've clearly arched each row.

Bronwen  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Even across the sleeve.

Sarah  

That looks hard to do.

Bronwen  

For sure, for sure. [laughs] It's really lovely.

Jojo  

So detailed.

Bronwen  

And then towards the end of the season, the circus comes to town.

Sarah  

Ooh!

Bronwen  

And she doesn't end up going, and she ends up having another like a dream sequence thing where she ends up being in the circus. Just as an escapism to everything that's happening in her own life. So... but this is her and Lavinia coming and being like, "Dad, we have to go to the circus!" [all laugh] But look at these...

Jojo  

Oh, I love those sweaters.

Bronwen  

Aren't they adorable?! I can't even!

Sarah  

So cute.

Jojo  

So cute.

Bronwen  

So she wears this sweater repeatedly.

Jojo  

Makes me want to knit something.

Bronwen  

I know. I think they're crocheted, technically.

Jojo  

Oh yeah, actually, you're right. That is crochet.

Bronwen  

It's adorable.

Sarah  

I love that they like recycled costumes. That's so... it's so... correct?

Bronwen  

Yeah, you'd only have a certain amount of dresses. It's not like you're gonna have an entire-- like we are today. Having, like...

Jojo  

Right.

Bronwen  

...drawers and drawers of stuff, you would have just a few things. So things do recycle over and over. And she wears that sweater a lot as... when the season changes to colder. And this is the dress she's wearing underneath, and it has this really pretty trim running down. And all of the paisley dresses she wears are so pretty.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

That's cute.

Jojo  

That's a really lovely shade of red too.

Bronwen  

Yeah, she kind of toggles between blue and red, depending on her mental state. So if she's feeling really good about herself, she's in red. And if she's kind of down on herself, it's blue.

Jojo  

What an interesting emotional visual.

Bronwen  

Right? So this is...

Sarah  

Oh, THAT'S rad.

Bronwen  

Right? So this is the corset that she ends up wearing when she goes... she's in the circus. And they actually have a little fitting picture of them figuring out all the tattoos, which I thought was interesting.

Jojo  

Oh, cool!

Oh, whoa. That's pretty cool.

Bronwen  

Right? And that's like... in this episode, she's just sort of feeling like a freak, right? Like, you know, her father doesn't get it. And she really wants to just be a writer and they want her to be a traditional Victorian lady. And it's not... it's not in her bones. It's just-- she's always writing poetry, and she just can't stop herself. So she's just feeling like she really does belong in the freak show and not in the house. So this is her little... it's so cool. I love these little striped acrobats on the side.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah.

Jojo  

I really do love circus wear, any kind of circus movie. I just enjoy how people reinterpret the circus each time...

Sarah  

Me too.

Jojo  

...in every era, every time. I do love that.

Bronwen  

It's really... it's kind of sad, because this is very-- a very... moment, thing at the end. And you're like, "wait, I need to look at all of this detail!" I just want to pause it, and there's so many fabulous costumes happening in this entire scene. But...

Jojo  

That's usually how it is.

Bronwen  

I know, right?

Jojo  

You know, the two seconds on screen.

Bronwen  

And there's one episode where they dress up like boys to go to a lecture. They look so cute.

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

So cute.

Bronwen  

I love all the textures that they sort of layered on top of each other.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Bronwen  

I don't know, the clothes just don't stop. They just kind of just keep on going forever. Everybody looks awesome.

Sarah  

I feel like I need to start this tonight. [all laugh] Like, I'm so excited to watch this now!

Bronwen  

Okay, well this is, I think, the show to watch. So... and this is Sue when she gets married at the very end of the season.

Sarah  

Pretty.

Bronwen  

She just looks so stinkin' pretty. It's ridiculous.

Jojo  

Look at that veil! It's so beautiful.

Bronwen  

Look at this necklace! I mean, I can't.

Sarah  

Gorge.

Jojo  

Super gorge. There are some really lovely bonnets that I just want to sort of shout out to like... it looks like they were built. So...

Sarah  

Is that Jane Krakowski?!

Bronwen  

It is!

Jojo  

It is.

Bronwen  

I know!

Sarah  

I am such a fan of her!

Bronwen  

There's lots of sort of star cameos that happen. So I don't want to... now that you guys are gonna start watching it, I don't want to like... [all laugh] it's so fun to see.

Jojo  

I was pleasantly surprised when I saw her as the mom. I was like, "Oh wait, what?"

Sarah  

I love her. Also, I met her when I saw "She Loves Me" on Broadway, and she was so nice.

Jojo  

Ooh.

Sarah  

She was SO nice. She is a true star.

Bronwen  

Yeah. And I feel like this is a very different part for her. Like, she's usually sort of glamorous, and she's very pious and kind of like closed and not fabulous?

There's still really funny moments that she has, which is one of the things I love about her.

Yeah. It's a very well-developed character.

Jojo  

She has a very sarcastic, witty humor.

Sarah  

She's a great comedic-- comedic actress, so I feel like doesn't get a lot of recognition for how good she is.

Bronwen  

She's so good. But like, there is... the straw work on this hat. It's braided and it has straw flowers that are three dimensional that are worked in the lace on the inside. Yeah.

Jojo  

So beautiful.

Sarah  

Good for them for doing beautiful bonnets. I feel like bonnets... we've talked about bonnets and how often we have films just either completely ignore them, or it's just kind of like an afterthought.

Bronwen  

Totally. And it's like-- they don't put a lot of bonnets on Emily. But I think that lets-- you know, obviously on purpose, but everyone else is wearing bonnets. So it's just to set her apart.

Sarah  

Yeah, it makes her look like more of a free spirit, and different from everybody.

Bronwen  

Exactly. Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Yeah, they do that really well. She definitely stands out in every scene that she's in. Pretty much the entire show.

Bronwen  

Yep. All right. I think that's all I wanted. I mean, the costumes do just go on and on. [laughs] There are-- I think in season two, there's some-- they go to the opera. And so everybody's in ball gowns.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah.

Sarah  

Ooh, yes.

Jojo  

Gorgeous.

Bronwen  

And her-- Emily's ball gown is blue velvet. And gold. It is so beautiful.

Jojo  

Oooh.

Bronwen  

It's probably in this ball gown section...

Jojo  

I can't wait.

Sarah  

I love velvet.

Bronwen  

So at any rate, I don't see-- if there's anything else I wanted to mention. I mean...

Jojo  

I think you did a really good job of paring down...

Sarah  

I do too, you did great!

Jojo  

...considering. [all laugh]

Bronwen  

Okay! I mean, there's so much-- so many beautiful clothes every moment of every show. So...

Sarah  

You understand our struggle now, of-- we have to edit ourselves down.

Jojo  

Yup!

Bronwen  

Yes I do. There's still way too many, still way too many.

Jojo  

Always, especially with TV shows.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah.

Jojo  

'Cause every episode can be its own, like... you could have 60 costumes.

Sarah  

I've been thinking about it. Like, my favorite TV shows. And I'm like... I really want to cover "Outlander," and I was like, "how about I just pick one episode, that I just think is..."

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

"...really a good example?"

Jojo  

I think you HAVE to for a TV show, because otherwise it just gets overwhelming. Especially for things like that, where she goes into so many different time periods and areas and locations and interacts with so many different people. There's just no possible way.

Bronwen  

Yeah, that show would be impossible.

Jojo  

Yeah, it for sure.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

Well, great job!

Bronwen  

Thanks! [all laugh] Thanks, "Dickinson"!

Jojo  

Thanks, Bronwen! I'm excited to watch the rest of it. Like I said, with just two episodes, it's... you know, it's been interesting just looking at the costumes. And seeing everything all together. I think-- I think you mentioned last time, production value is a big part of it. And like, you can definitely tell, they've really paid attention to all the details on this show.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Jojo  

I think they did a really good job.

Bronwen  

You know, that picture I showed of the of her dress, you can see what her room actually look like. And they really did make her room in the set look exactly like the room in the photographs. So...

Sarah  

That's so cool.

Bronwen  

They've really, really researched everything. And it's kind of nice to have the anachronistic be language, and music, and-- where the visuals are very anchored in the time period. So you don't feel like you're leaving the time period, really.

Jojo  

Yeah, I think that's what makes it so accessible too, because we're living in such an audio... I mean, of course, with the podcast. But also just in general. It's such an audio world, that to give us that grounding of the contemporary and what we listen to, while still being able to see a visual from the time period, I feel like makes us connect to the time period a little bit better.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Than if we were trying to do this weird mashup.

Sarah  

Yeah, like you were saying about "Bridgerton," how they-- it's basically like string quartet covers. And...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I appreciated what they were trying to do, but I personally don't love a string quartet cover of a pop song, because it doesn't sound good. It sounds like-- if you're-- I think one of them was "Bad Guy" by Billy Eilish.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And it's like, this song is really good. But there's not really a way to convey this song with only strings, unless you have a really good arranger, and I feel like it was just kind of... it doesn't sound like classical music, it sounds like something else. And it kind of took me out of it a little bit.

Jojo  

That's exactly how I feel about classical covers. Because it's, you know, especially with things like "Bad Guy," there's such a slam poetry kind of aspect to it.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

...That I think you just can't get with classical music, because it's just a different-- it's a different medium. So yeah, I think that's what I love about this show is that they let the music just be contemporary, and let that kind of feel what's happening in the scene.

Sarah  

I think that's cool.

Jojo  

Because you still get that sense of, you know, this is a contemporary feeling, without having to look contemporary in terms of historical accuracy.

Sarah  

Right. Yeah, totally.

Jojo  

Yeah, cool. Thanks, Bronwyn. Great job! Hopefully not too scary, as our first guest artist. [all laugh]

Bronwen  

Thanks though.

Jojo  

No pressure.

Bronwen  

No pressure.

Sarah  

So me and Jojo know what you do. But do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about what you do, in the realm of theater? Or about your YouTube channel? Or, like... what have you been up to? [all laugh]

Bronwen  

I know, it's a lot.

Jojo  

Self promotion!

Bronwen  

So I sort of, I guess... I don't know how far back I want to start. I guess I... you know, I went to school to be a-- I have a costume design degree from Cal Arts. And then ended up sort of not liking just being a costume designer. And I really wanted to build stuff, because that's really what I love. And so I ended up working in different shops starting out as a stitcher, and then ending up as a cutter/draper. And now I run the costume shop at Fullerton College, where Jojo and I work. And then the pandemic happened. And I had kind of started a YouTube channel, sort of on the side, because I wasn't seeing kind of the YouTube stuff that I wanted to see. I wanted people to know the right ways to do things, and that they're accessible and easy to do. And so I started that, sort of on the side, which was really actually great, because then pandemic hit, and we ended up needing to teach people how to do this stuff through Zoom, or whatever. So I kind of had a leg up on teaching far away. [laughs] On video.

Sarah  

Yeah, you didn't really have to teach yourself how to record yourself doing things...

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...'cause you were already doing it. That's awesome.

Bronwen  

Yeah. Pretty awesome. So that's kind of... and then, so my YouTube channel is pretty... I don't know, it's silly. And I do do some silly things. But there is a lot of educational stuff happening, as well. I try to make it as fun as possible. So, you should check it out.

Sarah  

I love your YouTube videos. I think they're adorable.

Bronwen  

Aww, thanks. [laughs]

Jojo  

And seeing the final product too, all the stuff you've built has been so cool to watch.

Bronwen  

Yeah, I hope so. And then, yeah... I just entered in the Foundations Revealed contest. We'll see how that goes.

Sarah  

I saw that, yeah!

Bronwen  

Yeah. It's a big...

Jojo  

So exciting!  

Bronwen  

...Worldwide competition. So we'll see. I probably won't win, but you know, it's fun to enter and at least have a goal and something to do.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Bronwen  

In these times.

Sarah  

Totally. Hey, who knows, you might win!

Bronwen  

I dunno!

Jojo  

I'm rooting for you, Bronwen.

Bronwen  

[laughs] I think regular people get to vote. So at least you should check out what everybody worldwide has done.

Sarah  

I'll vote, I'll vote for you.

Jojo  

I wanna vote! [all laugh]

Bronwen  

I don't think they're technically up, but it's gonna be on the Foundations Revealed website in March.

Sarah  

And we will post that on our social medias when it's around so that people can vote for you.

Bronwen  

Oh, that'd be great.

Jojo  

Yeah, we can definitely do that.

Bronwen  

Or they can vote for whoever they want.

Sarah  

Well, yeah.

Jojo  

Vote for Bronwen!

Sarah  

We'd prefer that they vote for you. [all laugh]

Jojo  

If you're listening to this podcast.

Sarah  

I'm sorry, we don't make the rules. It's a legal requirement that you now vote for Bronwen. [all laugh] Since you're listening to this podcast.

Bronwen  

Oh, my gosh.

Jojo  

So funny. Bronwen has been teaching me a lot too, even of recording and how to do all of that and teach online.

Bronwen  

It's bananas. It's been crazy. But fun.

Sarah  

I mean, yeah, I know a lot of teachers. My mom is a vocal teacher and a choir teacher. And she has been having to teach vocal ensemble over Zoom.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And she's really been adapting to. So it's-- it's like everybody's learning a whole new set of skills.

Jojo  

Absolutely.

Bronwen  

Yeah, I think it's been kind of awesome. Like, in a way, it's really a lot of work and a really different way of doing things. But it has been good, and examining how we teach and sort of fine tuning what we're teaching and stuff. So I think it's been good on the most part. I mean, it's been real rough for our industry, but...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

For sure.

Sarah  

So, what is your history with theater? Like, we want to know if there's one specific show that maybe you saw when you were young? Or the first show that you worked on that made you go, "Oh, this is definitely what I want to do."

Bronwen  

I think this is an interesting question. Because I think-- so, I grew up-- my parents were artists that made liturgical vestments.

Oh!

So, "liturgical vestments" is fancy word for the stuff that hangs in churches on the altar. Alter cloths and stuff. And it was in the 70s, when they were allowing women to be preachers and ministers and stuff. And they didn't have-- no one was selling robes for ladies. So my mom started making robes for women, and then they sort of ended up doing the art part and the liturgical vestment part. So I grew up in like-- a basic factory kind of setting where there was always silk and stuff in the trash cans. And I would put things together, just crafty. And I was always into costumes and clothing. And I thought for a while I'd be a fashion designer or something. But then-- and my parents, my parents were kind of artists. They always took us to different things that they could take us to, so we ended up going to a "Peter Pan" show when we were pretty little. And I remember it because my mom was actually crying when Tinkerbell died.

Sarah  

Aww!

Bronwen  

I know. And I was like, "What are you doing?" [all laugh] Like, you know, hard hearted me, I guess. I don't know. Like, watching the audience-- because that moment is so strange in theatrical... I don't know, experiences. Where the whole audience kind of has to buy into what's happening.

Sarah  

Yep.

Bronwen  

So I think that was the first moment that I felt that like, whatever was happening on stage was actually affecting people, and that we're having a communal response to that. So... which is a weird, kind of existential seven year old thing to be having. [all laugh] But I think that was the first moment that theater... how important theater is. And then I ended up working with a children's theater group, doing mostly building and helping with that, behind the scenes. So that's kind of what-- and then I ended up going to college and stuff. So it's not... it wasn't like... there's not a direct line from that show to theater. But I think all of my love of history and sewing and all that stuff sort of ended up coming together in like, "this is what you should be doing."

Sarah  

I love that.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely having that history is great.

Sarah  

Yeah, I do feel like a lot of people who work in theater, it's not It wasn't like a... "I've known I wanted to do this forever, and I just went and did it." It's like we all kind of have a meandering path where we try this and we try that. And then it just kind of-- we eventually arrive at theater. We go, "Oh, here it is." Like, "this is what I want."

B:

Right. Yeah.

Sarah  

But it takes us a while to figure that out.

Bronwen  

Yeah, and then I did-- you know, I tried some film and it was just... the pacing was strange and it just felt... I don't know, theater is so much better! [laughs] For me, I would say.

Sarah  

I completely agree. I've been on a couple of sets and they weren't even professional sets, they were small films, and I was like, "this is the most stressful thing I've ever experienced." [laughs]

Bronwen  

Yeah, they're just sort of badly organized. Like, you're-- you're prepared for the thing they're going to shoot and then all of a sudden they're like, "Oh, we're gonna shoot this," and you're like, "But we're not prepared for that, we're prepared for this!" So yeah, it was very stressful and...

Jojo  

Constantly changing.

Bronwen  

Yeah, wait-- a lot of waiting around for, like, "I could have been preparing for this all day if I had known."

Sarah  

Right, exactly.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's like intense boredom followed by the most stressful 30 minutes of your life...

Bronwen  

Yes.

Sarah  

...and then another five hours of intense boredom. [all laugh]

Jojo  

"Hurry up and wait" is basically the entire motto.

Sarah  

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Bronwen  

But mostly theater, you're just busy the entire time. So, no sitting around, there's no sitting around in theater. So...

Sarah  

Except for during tech. [all laugh]

Jojo  

Unless it's just one of those shows.

Sarah  

It's true, there are some techs where I'm like-- I hardly sit in the house at all because I'm just running around like a headless chicken.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Yup.

Bronwen  

That does happen.

Jojo  

Very true. Well thanks Bronwen! It's cool hearing that-- I mean, because I know you've talked to me a little bit about some of your background, but it's cool hearing the full story.

Bronwen  

I'm glad. I feel like I've not had the most normal childhood, or whatever. [laughs] And I guess, that's how you end up in theater for sure. [all laugh]

Sarah  

That's a very fair point. Do you want to tell us a bit about maybe, like... your favorite show you've ever worked on, if you have one?

Bronwen  

I always say "Edward Toulane." That was at South Coast Repertory. Really... I don't really know why, I guess, because it's not like I got to fit actors. I made tiny little clothes for this rabbit that was in the show, it's kind of like the star of the show. But he is a stuffed rabbit, that was about, what, two feet high or something? So it was like making doll clothes and getting paid for it, so I think that was my seven year old heart being like, "THIS IS THE BEST!" So... but, you know, and I've made tons of gorgeous dresses and fun stuff, but I-- that is the thing that kind of gave me the most joy.

Jojo  

And you've talked-- I mean, you've talked about this before, Bronwen, but I know you really wanted to work for Jim Henson for a while, with The Muppets, too.

Bronwen  

Yes I did. [all laugh]

Jojo  

I mean, you probably still do.

Unknown Speaker  

I want to, too!

Bronwen  

Still do, yes.

Sarah  

Me too, Bronwen! Yeah, every time-- so my parents, my family and I all watch "The Muppet Christmas Carol" together on Christmas every year. And every time, I stare at the tiny clothes and I'm like, "I want to make them." And then every year around Christmas I end up on the Jim Henson website looking to see if they have job openings, and they never do. [all laugh]

Bronwen  

They never do. "The Muppet Christmas Carol" has beautiful costumes!

Sarah  

It does! And I actually-- like, it's not oh, you know, it's a little false front vest, a false shirt underneath. It's like they've layered all the actual clothes, they're wearing everything that they should be wearing for the period, and it's all beautiful!

Bronwen  

Yeah, absolutely!

Sarah  

And it's like, wool and silk...

Jojo  

It's alomost more historically accurate than some things you see today, on real people.

Sarah  

Yes!

Bronwen  

Honestly. Like, they're-- I think Rizzo wears this little smocked shirt.

Sarah  

He does. Yes.

Bronwen  

And it's... you can see all the hand smocking and it's all super tiny and you're just like, "oh my god, this is mind blowing."

Sarah  

Yes!

Jojo  

Uh-huh.

Bronwen  

So, at any rate, I would love to work with The Muppets, since forever.

Sarah  

We should do that. [laughs]

Bronwen  

Yeah, of the things I've done, I've done a lot of weird things in my life but that is not one of them. [all laugh]

Jojo  

Can we just start a small company and just like, market? Just say "Hey, we already do this for, like... just hire us as a team."

Sarah  

I actually-- I know some people who did some work with All Puppet Players in Fullerton, and for a while I was like, "Can I please...?" They were gonna do a puppet version of "Pride and Prejudice"...

Jojo  

Ooh!

Sarah  

...and I was like, "I need to be involved in this," and then I don't think they ever ended up doing it. And it was a huge disappointment to me because I wanted to make puppet clothes so bad I was like, "I will do this for free." [all laugh] "I desperately need to do this."

Bronwen  

Who knew that so many costumers are desperate to work at Jim Henson?

Jojo  

In small scale. [all laugh]

Sarah  

I know! It's fun because it's-- it's a different shaped body than we're used to.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Sarah  

It's tiny, and everybody loves tiny things.

Bronwen  

Yeah!

Sarah  

And then they can't complain.

Bronwen  

Yeah!

Sarah  

Like, the doll or the puppet can't talk back to you, to tell you that their neck is too itchy. You know?

Bronwen  

Right! Right. It's kind of the best of all worlds.

Jojo  

Right, yeah.

Sarah  

Exactly! [all laugh]

Jojo  

So funny. I never even thought about it that way but that's so true.

Bronwen  

I don't know I guess if you're...

Jojo  

Working with an inanimate object that doesn't talk back to me.

Bronwen  

I'm sure Miss Piggy would talk back to you.

Sarah  

Yeah, that's... yes. I wonder if-- that makes me wonder how Muppet fittings are run. [all laugh] Does the person who is the-- is the person operating it while you're doing the fitting, just to see how it... moves?

Jojo  

Talking back to you.

Sarah  

Yeah! And like, can they help themselves from talking while they're...

Jojo  

No.

Bronwen  

I'm sure they can't. I'm sure they can't.

Sarah  

Yeah, puppet people are like that.

Bronwen  

[laughs] "Puppet people."

Sarah  

We all know puppet people.

Jojo  

We know puppet people. [all laugh]

Sarah  

Some of the weirdest, and I mean this in the most loving way, some of the weirdest people I've ever worked with are the puppet people.

Bronwen  

I don't know if I've worked with a lot of puppet-- I don't think I've worked with any puppet people.

Jojo  

I was gonna say, I think both of you have worked with a lot more puppet people than I have. [laughs]

Sarah  

We've been doing a lot of puppets at SCR, for some reason. We did "Amos and Boris," and they made a giant whale puppet for that. I mean, it...

Jojo  

Wow.

Sarah  

...it was more of a... like, a vehicle? But they called it a puppet, you know, and it had to have a mouth that opened and stuff.

Bronwen  

Awesome.

Sarah  

And then we did "Mr Popper's Penguins," which had a bunch of penguins in it.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah.

Sarah  

Oh, and then I did "Flora and Ulysses," I was the assistant costume designer on that, where the squirrel was a puppet. So I feel like I've worked with fair amount of puppet designers. They're always really weird.

Bronwen  

Hmm.

Jojo  

Interesting.

Bronwen  

Well, that's fun. Good to know. I always like working with the weirdos, so.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean...

Bronwen  

I fit in, you know.

Jojo  

We click together.

Sarah  

That is the beauty of theater, is that like... it's almost like joining the circus, right? Where it's a bunch of misfits coming together.

Bronwen  

Exactly. Exactly.

Jojo  

Very cool. Well, I don't know if I had any other specific questions, but I know we're nearing our time as well. I'm running at 52 minutes on my time.

Sarah  

That's pretty good, I think. We usually like to stay to an hour...ish. [all laugh] You know.

Bronwen  

Okay!

Sarah  

It's easy to get excited and then just get carried away.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Especially when there's beautiful costumes to be looked at.

Bronwen  

I know, and every episode is honestly so well put together and everything. Like, I have favorite episodes that don't necessarily have my favorite costumes. So it was hard to choose what to talk about. So...

Jojo  

Yeah, I feel like the show also keeps it-- it keeps the storyline moving, but you're always-- there's always something in each scene. There's not a lot of dead space.

Bronwen  

Yeah.

Jojo  

If that makes any sense? Because I feel like sometimes--especially with historical period shows--sometimes they focus so much on the dead space, and the waiting, that you're just kind of like, "why is this in here?"

Bronwen  

Right.

Jojo  

Like I'm just sitting watching nature happen for 10 minutes. [laughs]

Bronwen  

That's definitely not happening. [laughs]

Jojo  

Definitely not.

Sarah  

I do feel like some period period pieces have a pacing issue.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Bronwen  

Mmhmm. I mean, Jane Austen... like, they're often just waiting for a letter, right, that's part of the book.

Jojo  

Right.

Unknown Speaker  

It's true.

Jojo  

But you know, I feel like... so I guess this isn't the best example, but the new "Pride and Prejudice." There's very intentional reasons for why she has those waiting periods. But then there's there's other versions of "Pride and Prejudice" where I'm just like, "Okay, we just watched them walk across the courtyard for 10 minutes." [all laugh] Like, let's get to the other side of the courtyard already.

Sarah  

Pick up the pace!

Bronwen  

It's hard to get away from our modern pacing, right?

Jojo  

[laughs] That's true.

Sarah  

Yeah, we're used to a lot of instant gratification and 10 minute YouTube videos, so...

Bronwen  

Yeah, yeah.

Jojo  

It's true.

Bronwen  

Definitely, I think it's hard.

Sarah  

You've got to find a way to get people to not stare at their phone while they're watching your show.

Bronwen  

Right. That's interesting you say that. "Dickinson," I never-- I never pick up my phone when I'm watching that show.

Sarah  

I feel like that's as good a testament as any to how good it is, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah, very true.

Bronwen  

But I will say, it's not for everybody. [laughs]

Jojo  

For the weirdos, maybe?

Bronwen  

It's definitely for the weirdos, it's for us weirdos.

Jojo  

Yes. Yeah, I definitely-- like I said, I'm only two episodes in but I'm really enjoying just everything about it right now.

Bronwen  

I'm so glad because I was wondering.

Jojo  

Thank you for the suggestion, Bronwen.

Bronwen  

Okay, good. Nothing worse than being like, "this is the best show!" And then everyone else was like, "no, this show is terrible. I don't understand why you like it." [all laugh]

Sarah  

Well if they don't like it, that's on them. That's not your fault.

Bronwen  

No, it's not. [all laugh]

Sarah  

So do you want to tell people where they can follow you on social media if they feel so inclined?

Bronwen  

Sure, so I'm on Instagram @queendeluxesew. And then, on YouTube at Queen DeLuxe, or you can look up Bronwen Burton. I don't know if you guys have swipe up yet, on your Instagram.

Sarah  

No. We sure don't.

Bronwen  

I don't either.

Sarah  

But we can tag you. We'll tag Bronwen on Instagram, and we'll also have it in the episode description, her social media and stuff.

Jojo  

I'll probably post it on YouTube as well. I might be able to just link it to your actual YouTube page.

Bronwen  

Yeah, so if you want to learn some sewing, you can check out my channel.

Sarah  

Or just watch her make cute vintage-y clothes.

Jojo  

It's pretty great.

Bronwen  

Yes, or some historical things too, way back there. Yeah.

Sarah  

Awesome.

Jojo  

Perfect! Thanks Bronwen.

Sarah  

Thank you so much for joining us. We had so much fun.

Bronwen  

Oh good. I did too, and my dogs didn't bark, which was a miracle. [all laugh]

Sarah  

I forgot about your dogs momentarily. Good dogs!

Jojo  

That's a good sign.

Bronwen  

I was waiting for them-- and we're going to have to stop our recording, or whatever, you're gonna have to do tons of editing, so I'm glad.

Sarah  

Yay!

Jojo  

I know, it worked out very well.

Sarah  

Good job, puppies.

Bronwen  

Good job, puppies.

Sarah  

Okay well.

Jojo  

Perfect!

Sarah  

Thanks for listening to The Costume Plot.

Jojo  

We're looking forward to next month where we'll be sharing a couple more movies. We're going to go back to covering movies again, but I know we're going to have more guest episodes in the future.

Sarah  

Most definitely.

Jojo  

Thanks for joining us.

Sarah  

Okay, bye bye.

Jojo  

Signing out!

Sarah  

Bye!

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 10: Meet Me in St. Louis & Hamilton

Please consult these links for accompanying images:  Meet Me in St Louis: Instagram Hamilton: Instagram

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

and I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo

Welcome!

Sarah  

Hello!

Jojo  

Hi, everyone. I'm very excited, because today is our first live theatre production. So that's really exciting. It's the first time I've actually done a musical. So, Sarah and I are really excited.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's really our... our more area of expertise, more than film. Which is funny, we haven't even gotten, like... but I'm excited. I'm excited to do it finally. [both laugh] But real quick, before we jump in, a couple of things, I just want to remind people to please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts especially, we're doing a thing where we're going to donate $1 for every review we get. We haven't picked a charity yet, but we were just talking about how we have a couple in mind, for maybe specifically COVID relief for our industry. So that's exciting.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then also a little shout out to a podcast called the Podcast Review Show. They tweeted us yesterday. And they are a show that reviews other podcasts. And they reviewed us! Which was just a delight!

Jojo  

Yeah! No pressure. [both laugh]

Sarah  

I know. Immediately, I was like, "Uh oh!", but...

Jojo  

"Is this gonna be good or bad?"

Sarah  

Yeah. They were very sweet and had nice thing to say about us. And it was just... what a treat to be reviewed by another show! So thank you to them.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely. We're very grateful for other listeners as well.

Sarah  

I know. Yeah. I think that's a good way to reach other people, is for other shows to mention us. You know, cross promotion kind of thing.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah, definitely.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Absolutely.

Sarah  

So Jojo's starting us off today. What are you covering today, Jojo?

Jojo  

I'm going to be covering "Meet Me in St. Louis," which we kind of mentioned a little bit last time. So if you guys are able to, it's actually still showing, all online and it is technically free. They try to get donations to support the theater, of course. And their next showings are going to be February 11th and the 21st, which is very exciting. And it's... Sarah and I were talking a little bit about this, we were really pleasantly surprised, because you know, now that we are in the world of Zoom, there's a lot of productions out there who don't do a great job of figuring out how this medium works online. But I feel like this show did a really good job of kind of meeting that middle ground that we're sort of in right now of figuring out how to produce live theater, in an online platform...

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

...without it really being film. And how to honor, you know, the techniques and things about live theater that we all love. So, I'm going to cover... most of the images that we actually got from this show were from the theater directly, it's a lot of their marketing and promotion images. So there are going to be a couple costumes that I will touch on and talk about that were not in the photos. So I apologize for those of you that didn't get a chance to see this production. But just be aware, a lot of it's going to be talking about kind of how we were able to get costumes in this-- this modern age of no contact and no fittings in person. So just to give you a little bit of background, "Meet Me in St. Louis," was actually adapted-- this version was adapted and directed by Charlotte Moore, who actually was in the original production of "Meet Me in St. Louis"...

Sarah  

Really!

Jojo  

...on Broadway. And she's also the artistic director of Irish Repertory Theatre. So she really comes in with a lot of insight for this particular production. The costumes, of course, are by Tracy Christensen. And she's done a lot of work on Broadway. But we were lucky enough to be able to actually interview with Tracy, which we don't have that recording today. But I got a lot of insight into just how her process was for this. And that's one of the things I'm super excited to talk about. Because, you know, how do we do a Zoom costume design when we're all online and we can't do fittings in person, we can't take measurements in person, and even sending costumes can be a whole 'nother debacle or aspect of that. So yeah, I found a lot of information from her. She was really, really open and willing to talk to us about just her process for this, which I'm really excited about.

Sarah  

Well, I wasn't there, but I'm really excited to hear what she told you. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yes. So I wanted to start with a couple quotes from her, just before I get into the costumes. One of the things she talked about with the director is that Charlotte really wanted to tell a really clean story. So I mentioned to Sarah, this is a show that I'm very familiar with, because we actually did it when I was in high school way back when. And it's a little bit longer than the actual production that they've given us online. But she definitely took out kind of the bigger filler parts and kind of gave us the the bare necessities, essentially.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So there is a little part at the very end that she kind of skips a big portion of the show, but she kind of gets the major plot points that get us to where we need to get at the end of the show. So she said she wanted to try and "evoke the period anywhere we could. However, it's definitely modern, we're going to try and convey the character and what their objectives are." So she talked a lot about like the objectives in terms of their relationship with one another, in terms of, you know, who they liked. In terms of-- and you'll see a lot of that in the pictures as well, she definitely kind of groups couples, in a way, with colors and patterns and textures and things like that. One of the things she talked about with the costume process-- because I asked her a lot about what it meant to be the costume consultant on this, as opposed to being listed as a costume designer. She definitely said, "I was mostly dealing with what people had in their closets. You're working within the parameters of this Zoom thing." And she said, "I have a fraction of the control I would normally exert as a costume designer." Which, you know, that's one of the things... as a costume designer, there's so much under our job description that's included in creating a design, putting it all together, and actually doing all the fittings. And I love that she kind of talked a little bit about that, you know. There was some lack of control, but it was sort of-- she described it as like a puzzle, that she had to sort of figure out how to make those pieces work together.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's just a whole-- it's like a whole different skill set, practically. Like, it's a whole different job.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the things she talked about, being a consultant, she actually was brought in quite late to the process.

Sarah  

Really?

Jojo  

Because I think she said that there was possibly some sort of misunderstanding about whether or not they needed a costume designer, which happens a lot in our industry.

Sarah  

Yep. Yep.

Jojo  

And of course, you know, they realized they needed a costume person to at least be controlling the language and the vocabulary that was being used. And so they brought her in, but she said she had about 10 days, I think, to put everything together?

Sarah  

[gasp] Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

So it was a little crazy. But one thing she said... you know, one of her actors--actually the girl who played Esther Smith, so kind of the main... one of the main leads, who's in love with the neighbor, John Truitt--she said she actually had no access to things when she came to New York. Because I guess she was in the midst of traveling or moving, so a lot of her stuff was packed up. So you can kind of see that a lot of her blouses that she wears, which I'll talk about in a second, are much more kind of in line with the style of the period, than maybe some of the other characters. And I think that's partially because Tracy was actually able to shop for her, and had some money to kind of purchase those items for her. Let's see, what else did I write down? Oh, she also mentioned, and I think this is a really important thing to bring up, is that she-- the actors are suddenly in a position where they have to deal with all kinds of things that they don't normally deal with. So like, because she can't be there and be fitting the costumes on them, and be telling them what to wear, and be telling them how to style their hair...a lot of this stuff they had to do on their own. So it wasn't just recording themselves on the screen, it was figuring out where they need to stand, figuring out how to make their costume look continuous every single time they wear it, making sure that their hair is the same as the day before. Even makeup and all of those things that they normally have a little bit more help on, or at least assistance on, backstage. A lot of this was taken-- a lot of that burden was taken on themselves.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I think that was one thing that she made mention of, that I think is really important to take note of, before we start talking about the costumes. So that being said, all of that was just to kind of help us understand the Zoom world and understand what's going on. When we actually get to the costumes... let me share my screen. The first image I have here, of course, is the first opening scene. So "Meet Me in St. Louis" is their opening number. And it's really where you kind of get to meet all of the characters, and see all the characters, and it's the first introduction to all of them. And I really love that you can tell the sisters are kind of tied in with each other, specifically because she's put all of them in sort of a floral pattern. So we have Rose here on the left in the kind of more saturated blue, and then we've got Agnes in the light blue, and Tootie in the yellow. I think the only thing that I was a little thrown off-- again, because I think she had the chance to actually purchase these items for her. Esther, even though I think this costume fits her so well for this character and for this role, it felt a little bit in the beginning like she kind of didn't belong with the rest of the girls.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

But I can-- I can understand why Tracy decided to sort of group the other three girls in that kind of same color palette. And you certainly start seeing Rose transition a little bit more, she's definitely the most saturate in all of her colors throughout the show, as opposed to the other two girls who we see a lot less changes in terms of the actual outfits.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

One of the other things that I really wanted to take note of in this, and again, she mentioned that she tried to put in bits and pieces and hints of the period wherever she could. I feel like the mom really was the most successful in this particular way, not just her outfit in terms of the puff sleeves that were very reminiscent of this time period, but also her hair. So she's got kind of a Gibson hairstyle that was very popular at this time.

Sarah  

It's like, turn of the century, right?

Jojo  

Yes! Yeah, I think it's like 1905? 1904-1905, I believe.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I think that was really, really successful. And it was interesting also, that she put the mom and the dad in this kind of gray monotone-- or monochrome palette.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

And I think that was also very purposeful, and I think that was really successful. Because she kind of kept them in more neutral tones throughout the show. Whereas the daughters had a little bit more color vibrancy. Lon, I think, was-- in the beginning, I feel like he was probably the least strong for me. I don't think it was that he didn't necessarily fit, but-- and part of this might also have had to do with the fact that this is what he had in his closet. And he, you know, I feel like for men, it's a little less common for them to have like period items, unless it's a suit jacket.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Or period-looking items, I should say. Because, you know, once we get to like the 1940s, 1950s, most people are wearing very casual polos. And so this was probably like the closest? But I also feel like he kind of threw me out of the world the most, out of everyone else.

Sarah  

I agree. Yeah.

Jojo  

And again, with the limitations, and understanding Zoom and what's in your closet... all of this is, you know, said with a grain of salt, of course. But I think in the beginning, I think he was the least successful for me. In terms of Katie, who you see in the background, she's our maid, I do love that the costume designer kind of kept her consistent throughout the whole show. Not that we ever lose who she is, because I think she's a pretty big character in this in the sense of, like... her personality is very clear. But I like that we kind of kept her in the one look, which would have been very, probably, common in that time period as well, to have the maid dressed in sort of a similar outfit or uniform each time. Okay, moving on to the next one. So this was their looks on the trolley. And in the actual show-- it's interesting, because "Meet Me in St. Louis," again, I have a very personal connection to this show. So I know a lot more of the songs. But one of the things Tracy mentioned was that like most people who have seen this show only really remember "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas."

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Because you know, that's-- it's a Christmas song, it's already well known by most people. But for me, "The Trolley Song" was actually the most memorable, just because...

Sarah  

It's my favorite!

Jojo  

...it's such a big big to-do in the original production that we did. So this is, again, where we have a lot more of the vibrancy. I pulled up this image... or, I should say I kept this image that they sent me, because I really love how she's put Rose and Warren in kind of very subtle matching tones to kind of tie them together.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Just that small hint of the red bow tie for Warren, and he's in quite a lot of neutrals as well, but more kind of the brown neutrals as opposed to the black and gray. Whereas, you know, now that we see Lon here, he's back in kind of the gray traditional suit that would have been characteristic of that time as well. I do love that they put Rose in this red. I think at first when I saw it, I was a little thrown off because it was just the first thing that kind of drew my attention more than anything else on stage. But I can see again, just how she sort of tied in the characters together. And keeping Rose in more of those kind of vibrant saturate colors. Whereas when you look at a lot of the colors for Esther, she's in a lot more pastels. There's a lot more ruffles. I think Rose is kind of the satirical character, in the sense that she's very sarcastic in everything that she says. She has a lot of attitude whenever she talks to Warren, and there's this constant, like, sexual tension and feud going on between them. And she's got a lot of lip, I think.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But I love that that's been reflected in not just her character and her choices, but also in her closet. I'm not going to talk too much about this character, just because you know, she has a lot of extras that-- there were two actors that had to play kind of the "everybody else" roles.

Yeah.

And I think that was-- I think she did a good job of just giving them different enough looks that you did didn't get confused with who they were.

Sarah  

Yes, agreed.

Jojo  

Okay, so this was a picture of Tootie. And, you know, it's funny, because in the movie version, as well as the original show, Tootie's sort of a weird child. [laughs] And I think this one, I love that they cast her as an Asian girl. But also, I think this-- I think she did a really good job of just the weirdness of Tootie. And I think yellow is also just a really nice color on Asian skin. So I don't have too much to add about this. [laughs] But this is definitely her common dress.

Sarah  

She was so funny and cute.

Jojo  

Yes, definitely. And I think just the expression-- I think she did a really great job as an actor, but also just in this kind of smocked look, I can see why she chose this particular dress out of this girl's closet. Because you can see some of that sort of smocking that also would have been common at that time period. Like, this certainly doesn't look as period as some of the other outfits or tops. But you can see where the hint of that period comes in, and why Tracy made that choice.

Sarah  

Yeah, gives you like a little flavor of period.

Jojo  

Yes, yeah. And it helps that her hair kind of helps support that as well. I mean, not just her hair, but the hair of everyone on the show. I think they did a really good job of reminiscent-- of being reminiscent of the time period.

Sarah  

Yeah, totally.

Jojo  

Okay, so then John Truitt. So he's our, you know, leading boy next door. And I think this was really, really successful. Again, going back to the idea of the gray suit that was so common at this time. I think the bow tie reads a little more contemporary, but I can see how it ties in with the colors of, you know, the other characters on the trolley. Also, the hat is is very much, you know, kind of turn of the century, the straw boater that he's wearing.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And I think that was-- that definitely adds kind of the final touch of making him look very in-period. This particular suit obviously has a much more contemporary fit. But I think at that time, slim was also very popular and very attractive. So I think it works very well.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I think Tracy did a great job on this one.

Sarah  

Yeah, and it's not, like, glaringly modern, you know?

Jojo  

Yes. Yeah, very true. And he certainly has a couple-- I think he was one of the ones that actually had the most suit jackets. Which again, I don't know this actor, but he just seems like the kind of person who would just have that in his closet anyways.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But I think in terms of choices, it looks like Tracy had more choices to pull from, in terms of his suit jackets.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I think that was in her favor, for sure. So just another quick look, closer-up look, at Anna Smith, the mom. Again, just the reminicent sleeves. I think that's very, very period. I think her outfit in particular, even though it's obviously a modern turtleneck, definitely looks the most period in terms of things you can pull from your closet.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And then she also styled her hair very period. So I think this was one of the more successful looks that I think worked throughout the entire show. So back to Esther, this is only one of the shirts that she wears. But I love that this was kind of the styling that Tracy went for; a lot of her blouses are very similar to this. It's got a lot of that ruffle in the front, it's a very Edwardian silhouette. It's kind of a slightly higher collar as well, with a lot of the lace, and even the lantern sleeves is very common. She also-- she mentioned bows in a lot of her... like, you know, the "hints" that she tried to put in for period. And I think she definitely did that with both Esther and Rose, the two sisters. You can tell that in this case, she's obviously put Esther in mostly pastels. Like, she's in this pink one. She's also in mostly white, I think, for a lot of the show. And then there's one other scene where she's in a light blue, and it actually-- I think it's... trying to remember if it's the scene that's with John, when he's in another gray suit, but they complement each other very well. It's a very cool toned gray suit. So again, you can see how Tracy's kind of solidified those choices and been very careful to make sure that language stays there throughout the show. And then the final look for for Esther... this was actually one of my favorite looks for her. It's this beautiful rich blue velvet kind of blazer coat. But it definitely kind of throws back to the Edwardian coats of that time, the very tailored look, and the very slender sleeves and shoulders. And then, you know, the polka dot is a little bit more on the contemporary side. But again, it's kind of throwing back to all of her other blouses, which have that kind of neck ruffle, or neck tie, that I think was very common-- a common through line for all of her all of her costumes. So yeah, I think-- I think that was the last one. Yep. So it was super short today. But I wanted to talk a lot about, I think, how successful I think these costumes were in the midst of having to choose something from someone's closet. I think the actors did a really great job. The singing was gorgeous.

Sarah  

It was.

Jojo  

And I think whoever did the audio for this did a really great job. In light of the circumstances, like-- there were a couple technological things where it felt like the actors weren't on the same plane, because sometimes actors would look bigger than others. But I think in terms of how they placed everyone into the shot, and also the fact that Tracy really, really paid close attention to how not just one character looks in what they're pulling, but also how they look together on the screen. And how much more involved I think the costume designer, or costume consultant, had to be on this process in order to make sure that that was all staying consistent. I think that was a huge feat. So great job, Tracy. Thank you so much for sharing these costumes with us. I think it was a really good job in terms of selecting from what you have and working within those parameters, which-- that always makes it difficult. But it's also it's also the fun part of figuring out that puzzle of how to make it work and still make it a memorable design.

Sarah  

Yeah, I think she did a great job with what she had to do. And clearly there was a time crunch. So it's impressive under those circumstances, too.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Just like, coordinating something like this. I mean, shout out to Irish Rep, because like-- I said this to you, but I was prepared to be, like, underwhelmed. And I actually was very pleasantly surprised by how cute it was. And just how fun it was to watch.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

It was just a really cute little production.

Jojo  

Definitely. And it's, you know, because we aren't able to see real theatre right now, it's nice to be able to have those little things that you're not like, "I just want to leave" halfway through the production. Because there have been a few that I was like, "why am... why am I here? This is..." [both laugh] "This is not what I signed up for." Oh, there was one thing that I-- we don't have pictures of, unfortunately. But I did want to make mention of some of Warren's other suits. I just loved how well done the men's suits were. So specifically for-- John Truitt, of course, we have some pictures of. But there were some other suits, I think that we don't have photos of that I want to just say-- it didn't do enough justice because we don't have pictures, but I think Tracy did a really good job. And again, some of that might have been just suits that they already had in their closets. But there was another one where Warren-- who's Rose's love interest, who was basically the one feuding with her the whole time, and like, won't ask her to marry him until it's too late. But there's another scene where he's wearing an Oxford suit. And it's a very specific Oxford uniform that's very characteristic of the university, it's kind of that blue blazer with sort of the Oxford insignia. And then it's like the red and blue striped necktie, which is so common, but I think she did a really good job of of using that as a way to identify with him. Because he is sort of the Oxford University man who's kind of the-- I wouldn't say "frat boy," but he sort of is like, you know, dragging Rose along a little bit until finally he admits that he's in love with her and wants her to marry him. But I love that she used that. And again, it was also in one of the scenes where I believe Rose is wearing a pretty saturated blue dress. And so again, just really tying the two of them together. And the other couples too, Esther and John as well. There were multiple scenes where I felt like the color combination that she had them in, and seeing them on screen together, she did a really good job of paying close attention to how all of those characters unite with one another and combine with one another in their costumes.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's enough of a challenge to be like, "Hey actor, what do you have in your closet that could be this?" and then to even narrow it down to colors, and group them by color, and make them visually alike? That's a big challenge.

Jojo  

Yeah, for sure. Especially when you have actors who, you know-- because there are some actors who literally just are not color people, you know, especially in New York, you'll get a lot of actors who just have a lot of monochromatic black, white, and gray in their closet.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

I mean, that was pretty much my closet before I moved out here. So it's, you know, it's an interesting challenge to think about trying to color coordinate when you have someone who doesn't even have that option. So yeah, I think she did a really great job.

Sarah  

Yeah. Great job, Tracy!

Jojo  

Yeah, shout out to Tracy Christensen.

Sarah  

Woohoo!

Jojo  

So if you get a chance to watch this-- again, you know, you have two more days. So the... I guess... what's today?

Sarah  

This will be going up the night of the 11th. So...

Jojo  

Okay. [laughs]

Sarah  

...after that, they'll only have one more, but we'll put the link in the description so you can...

Jojo  

Perfect.

Sarah  

...reserve your tickets to watch it.

Jojo  

Yeah! Yeah, definitely. And support local theatre!

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

I guess not local to us. But...

Sarah  

Well, they're local to somebody.

Jojo  

Local somewhere. [both laugh]

Sarah  

I'm sure we have listeners in New York.

Jojo  

Yeah, so that's all I had to say. I mean, again, this is one of those shows where she had a huge feat because she had to cover an entire year. I mean, the entire show is supposed to last from July, all the way to the following July.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So trying to show that through costumes when you're limited already with what you can use in their closets-- again, brava. Very good job.

Sarah  

Brava, Tracy.

Jojo  

That's all I had to say.

Sarah  

Great job!

Jojo  

Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah  

You're welcome! [both laugh]

Jojo  

Now it's your turn.

Sarah  

So I'm covering "Hamilton," and I picked it because it's on Disney+, and so I feel like people can access it pretty easily. That's gonna be our challenge with picking theatre productions, it's like, are we only going to pick ones that are out there on video that people can access? Or, in the future are we going to actually go to live stuff? We'll see. We will see. It'll be...

Jojo  

Or there's all the, you know, musical films too.

Sarah  

That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

Jojo  

So yeah, it's a lot of options out there.

Sarah  

I'm a big fan of professionally shot stage productions. I think that more should be released.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Because it makes theatre accessible to everybody. And not just people who can afford a Broadway ticket, you know?

Jojo  

Especially right now with COVID.

Sarah  

Especially right now. Yeah. [laughs] Okay, so yes, "Hamilton" opened in 2015 on Broadway after being off-Broadway for a few months. And it's directed by Thomas Kail and written by, and starring, Lin Manuel Miranda, if you guys don't already know, if you've been living under a rock. [laughs] The costumes are by Paul Tazewell, who-- he won a Tony for this. This show won a million Tonys.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And he has a total of six nominations. He also did "Memphis" and "In the Heights," "The Color Purple," and "The Wiz Live." Those are just a few of his credits. I will say, I looked at the rest of the production team for this. And it's a very male production team, which is... sadly not that uncommon on Broadway. But hopefully...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...it's at least...

Jojo  

Hopefully changing.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's at least not an all white production team. Like... they have that going for them. [laughs]

Jojo  

One step closer.

Sarah  

Yeah. So this is obviously the story of founding father Alexander Hamilton, but told through a very 21st century lens, you know, it's like a hip hop musical. It's-- the language in it is very modern. So it's making a-- like, a story from history accessible to 21st century audiences, which... I think we've talked a lot about that kind of thing.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And I think it's really important. Like, I know that I didn't know anything about Alexander Hamilton before I got into this show.

Jojo  

Yeah, very true.

Sarah  

And I think I'm going to out myself as a "Hamilton" stan a little bit in this because I... I think that "Hamilton"'s impact on theatre... really, like, can't be overstated. I think it's perhaps the most important piece of theatre at least in my lifetime. I've never seen a show--like, a Broadway show--have such a big cultural impact, as "Hamilton" has had.

Jojo  

In such a short amount of time, too.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's 2021. So it's been six years. And I think, you know, even like before Broadway shut down, it was still the biggest ticket on Broadway five years into its run.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So it's made a really big impact. And I can see that even in the shows that I've worked on. Which is a real push toward diversity and casting people who are not white, who are, you know, in minority groups. And in regular, everyday productions, I think it's really put diversity to the forefront of people's casting decisions, which is so exciting.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Because it's proved that you don't have to cast a white person to play a historically white person, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah. So I'm a big fan, obviously. [laughs]

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So this first picture is from the opening number, and this is the whole company, basically. And everybody, you can see, has a base costume of sort of this beige, parchment-colored ensemble.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And the leads, you can see, are in sort of like a white version of what they wear through the rest of the show, and then the ensemble are in what they wear through the whole show. So I'm going to talk about the ensemble a little bit, because I think that their costumes are really interesting and well done. They stay in this, like, parchment color family, like I said, and so it makes them immediately distinguished from the leads, which is important because the ensemble kind of never leaves the stage.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And they're often moving scenery or moving props, or becoming the scenery or the prop. So to have them so easily distinguishable from the rest of the cast, I think is important.

Jojo  

I think this was around the time when a lot of that was being done too, where ensemble became a part of the world, as opposed to just ensemble.

Sarah  

Yeah. I will say as a dance nerd, the choreography in this show is just impeccable. And it kind of never stops, like...

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

...there's hardly any break in between numbers, because it's a sung-through show, there's not a lot of dialogue in it. So like, the ensemble is always dancing, which I live for, obviously. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yep.

Sarah  

So the women are in sort of like-- oh, this takes place, you know, 18th century, founding of America. 17... 76 was when it was founded. [laughs] It takes place before and after that.

Jojo  

[laughs] It's okay, Sarah, I feel like my brain is still like, "what?"

Sarah  

They say the years in multiple numbers, and I forgot-- I've forgotten all the years now, that they say. Even though I've listened to it a jillion times.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

The women are in these... they're in like an 18th century stay, or corset. But they move so much that they... I sort of like, I looked up interviews with Paul Tazewell. And he said that, yes, they are fully boned. But they're not doing the work that a corset would do. They're not tight laced into them.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Which is good, because you don't want to tight lace someone who's doing that much dancing.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And they have stretch panels in the side so that they have more free range of motion, too. And I think this is a very common thing for people to do, which is like, put people in underwear, basically? Like, this is-- it's 18th century underwear, but now it's outerwear. Which is a way to evoke the period, but do it in a way that's like, I don't know... like, cooler, I guess.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Well, we are seeing a lot more undergarments being worn too.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

On the outside, I mean.

Sarah  

Working women in the period would wear their stays as outerwear sometimes, but most women were not.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

This is a shot from an ensemble member's Instagram, Sabrina Miko. I like this because it's sort of like a backstage shot. You can see, it's made of a lovely sort of taffeta. I really like this shot.

Jojo  

So beautiful.

Sarah  

The ensemble all have different pieces that they add to their base costume according to what scene it is. So like, if they're at the ball, they have a skirt that they add. The men will add... they add shirts later on. They have jackets for when they're in the battle scenes. And then the women also have a vest that they'll put on that looks like the man's vest, because the male ensemble members are in vests the whole time. And so the women have their own version of that, for when they are basically playing men, like in the battle scenes.

Jojo  

I do love that, a very transformable uniform.

Sarah  

Yeah, very versatile, like... takes them from scene to scene without having to leave the stage for that long. [laughs] Because like I said, they're always on stage. This is a shot of a couple of them in little Spencer jackets that they add later on.

Jojo  

I did love those, those are some of my favorites.

Sarah  

They're so cute! Lovely surface decoration, but it's made of the fabric that the jacket is made of, which is common across the board in the show. Paul Tazewell said that he basically stripped all of the ornamentation off of these 18th century fashions, and we're left with the silhouette. And so he plays a lot with like, decoration that isn't gaudy or sparkly or... too much, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah. It's very subtle, but makes a statement.

Sarah  

Yeah. I also grabbed this because I want to say that this is like, my least favorite line in the show. Because Philip Hamilton is talking to these ladies and he's flirting with them, and he says, "You look good in your frocks." And it bothers me every time because "frock" means "dress" and they're not wearing dresses! [both laugh]

Jojo  

Right. Oh, so funny. It's the little things.

Sarah  

Lin Manuel, why'd you write that? [laughs] Or like, if I was Paul Tazewell I'd be like, "Okay, well, the script says frocks, so they gotta be wearing skirts for this part."

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

So that's... that's that. And then this is a fun little behind the scenes shot I found of their corsets, and you can see the stretch panels in them.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah.

Sarah  

And you can see the big honkin' zipper that goes up the back, which is... that's very theatre to just have, you know...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...There's no lacing. There's not like a bunch of tiny little hooks. It's a big zipper. It's gotta be durable.

Jojo  

You gotta get in and out of that thing fast.

Sarah  

Yeah, exactly. Okay, so moving on to the rest of the people. This is Alexander Hamilton,

Jojo  

Lin Manuel!

Sarah  

The man himself. This is his white outfit that he starts the show in. So like I said, everybody has sort of a white version of their costume, except Aaron Burr, which I'll talk about in a minute. And then he changes into this brown coat.

Jojo  

Ooh.

Sarah  

And he puts it on onstage, which is-- that happens a lot in this show, because it's all sung-through. Everybody's just like, constantly moving to the next scene. Which... I don't want to say it's stressed me out. But it...

Jojo  

[laughs] As someone who has had to do that a lot in the past, yes, it's very stressful.

Sarah  

Like, everytime someone's like, "So they have to put it on onstage," we're all like, "Oh, God. Oh no." [both laugh]

Jojo  

"How are we going to do that?"

Sarah  

Because, like... for those who are not maybe seamstresses or in the theatre industry, a lot of times the inside of a theatrical garment does not look like the inside of a regular garment. The seams will often be very visible, and that makes it so that they're very easy to alter, which is important for theatre because you're constantly reusing stuff. So you need to be able to alter it easily. So if he takes it on-- puts it on onstage, the seams can't be visible. So that means that it's more work, which is impressive from a construction standpoint.

Jojo  

Right. And that's when we do have to make it look kind of like a real garment. Because you will see the inside of this.

Sarah  

Yeah. And I found out, actually, this is a good time to segue into a video I watched by Bernadette Banner who is a very popular costume YouTuber.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

She had sort of like a little interview with Paul Tazewell. And it was about also the Costume Industry Coalition, which is like a New York coalition to help keep the costume industry in New York afloat. And he said that the costumes are built by several shops. So like, Broadway shows are interesting because they don't have their own shop.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

They have to like, outsource it to a bunch of different shops, and Tricorn Costumes is one of the shops that was responsible for "Hamilton," and they built a lot of it. And they said that they everything is made to order. So it's like, once they get a new person, a new cast member, they basically make a whole set of new costumes for them.

Jojo  

Wow.

Sarah  

I know.

Jojo  

That's insane. I mean, Broadway... but yeah.

Sarah  

Well, it's like the work never stops. You know, once the show's open, it's not just like, "We have the costumes we have." Once the show is open, you're constantly changing cast members, they have to have their own set of costumes. I found that very interesting. Because it's like, are you not altering the ones you have?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So yeah.

Jojo  

It's a lot of money, too!

Sarah  

I know!

Jojo  

I mean, that's why Broadway has money.

Sarah  

Yeah. "Hamilton" especially has money. They...

Jojo  

Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Sarah  

They are doing great.

Jojo  

Their tickets are so expensive, they better!

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so... carrying on. I was gonna say about this brown coat, it had a bit of like, aging in it. And it's because like, this is his when he's young. He's an immigrant. He has nothing, basically. So it's almost a little bit droopy, this coat, so it makes sense that he's not established yet. It tells us that story. And then as the show goes on, he moves into green. Green becomes sort of like his signature color for the majority of the middle of the show. After the war, which... I didn't pull costumes--I mean, pictures--of the uniforms, because I was like, "They're uniforms. It's fine." I have enough other stuff to talk about. [both laugh]

Jojo  

We've had that conversation a few times. [both laugh] At some point, we'll probably have to cover like a military uniform movie.

Sarah  

Yeah...

Jojo  

So funny.

Sarah  

Not today! So, confirmed Slytherin Alexander Hamilton... [both laugh] has this lovely bottle-green color.

Jojo  

I do love that green.

Sarah  

It's nice, right?

Jojo  

It's such a rich color.

Sarah  

Like I said before, it's like the classic-- it's the silhouette of the period, but stripped of ornamentation, extra decoration, surface detail, just to give you the feeling of the period as opposed to a carbon copy of it.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Which we like. I like that. And then he moves into black at the end of the show. And this is like a lovely velvet, and you can see that the style... I mean, yeah, the green one, it goes... it's like a cutaway. So it's long. And then the black one sort of crops at the waist in the front and then has tails in the back, which is an evolution of the period. So that's the way that they show that time is passing, is that the silhouettes changed a little bit. Lovely, beautiful.

Jojo  

Almost like, a little more reminiscent of the modern day tuxedo coat.

Sarah  

A little bit. Yeah, because it has like a satiny lapel on it. And this is, I mean, it's called Regency but I think in America... what did.... Bernadette Banner called it-- Oh, Federalists, she called it Federalist era.

Oh, Federalist. Okay.

Yeah. Which is like empire waist, you know, the Jane Austen period we've been talking so much about lately, but in America.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Okay. I want to talk about Aaron Burr.

Jojo  

Ah! Aaron Burr.

Sarah  

He is my favorite character. I have a lot of feelings, a lot of strong feelings about Aaron Burr. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Uh huh.

Sarah  

I love how... so I'm gonna click back to that first shot. He is the only one not in all white, and it's because he's the narrator of the whole show. So he starts the show, and you can immediately tell, you know, that he's different from everybody. He's not just a member of the company in this number, he's the narrator. He will be like, pulling us through the whole narrative. I love this eggplant purple.

Jojo  

It's so nice on his skin tone too.

Sarah  

I know. Leslie Odom Jr., this is like a tour de force performance. If you have not watched this, by the way, you need to if you have Disney+.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

It's a must.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

It's just very rich-looking without being showy or tacky. It looks very luxe.

Jojo  

I love the shape of his unique lapels, too.

Sarah  

Mmhmm, this like button-back.

Jojo  

Like, that's just not something you ever see. Very much a design choice.

Sarah  

Yeah, I wonder if Paul Tazewell found that somewhere in the research and was like, "Gotta do that lapel. Love that lapel."

Jojo  

Yeah, I'm curious because I was like, I don't think I've ever seen that specific shape. So I'm curious where he found that.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's beautiful. And then the front, kind of, of the skirt, buttons back to so you can see this beautiful silky lining. And I love-- he stays in purple and navy blue. And I like that they're very sort of like, dark and stormy colors. Because he is this... tightly controlled, like, exterior.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

But he has all this rage bubbling under the surface, he has this internal turmoil...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...the whole show. And so I like that that kind of hints to his-- to his true nature, that he wears these stormy colors.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Oh, and then in this picture, this is his other look. Later on.

Jojo  

Even that.

Sarah  

I know!

Jojo  

It's like, the stacked lapel is so beautifully done.

Sarah  

Gorgeous.

Jojo  

Because it's not just stacked. He's also like trimmed the stack. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yes. But it's very subdued trim. You know, like it's not... it's just quietly beautiful. It's not in your face.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And like, I think I saw a quote from Paul Tazewell that was like, you know, "successful costume designing gets out of the way of the storytelling." Which isn't to say that you should ignore it, you know, but it serves the story in a way that it doesn't pull you out. It doesn't alter...

Jojo  

Distract you.

Sarah  

Yeah, it doesn't alter your suspension of disbelief.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So yeah, I think that's something he's done so well for this show. So this is our other men...ses. I forgot his name. The... John Laurens.

Jojo  

Oh, I can't remember his name either.

Sarah  

John Laurens.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah, Lafayette, and Hercules Mulligan. And I love sort of the, you know, the color scheme we have going here, and then the textures too. The velvets. And then they each have a slightly different coat, so it shows their personality. Hercules Mulligan always wears like a knit beanie, which is fun. I heard a rumor that that was because the actor was wearing it and rehearsals and they just really liked it. So they kept it.

Jojo  

I will say I think that beanie he was actually one of the things that threw me out of the world.

Sarah  

Yeah?

Jojo  

I think no one else was wearing something like that. So it just felt so out of place for me. I was like, "Oh, this feels like an actor choice and not a design choice."

Sarah  

That's fair. [both laugh] That's very fair. Yeah.

Jojo  

But yeah, I mean, I guess it goes in with-- it ties in with the hip hop.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

But I think because no one else was wearing something like that, I felt very like thrown by his choice.

Sarah  

It's also-- perhaps also they liked it because the other two actors who played these, the Laurens and Lafayette tracks, changed their hair for act two to become their other characters, because they are double cast.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And he has really short hair. So maybe they were like, "We need a way for him to change his head too"...?

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

For act two.

Jojo  

I could see that.

Sarah  

Yeah, I don't know. Oh, I like that Lafayette is in velvet. Because later this actor also plays Jefferson, who wears velvet too. So it's like a fun little way to tie together the two characters he plays.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So let's move on to the Schuyler sisters. Lovely.

Jojo  

I love this shot.

Sarah  

I know, this is the classic.

Jojo  

Yep.

Sarah  

So these gowns are interesting, because like I said, they're free of the typical surface decoration that we see in 18th century fashion. And you're left with like, just the silhouette, and I think that's fun. It's really effective. And they each have their own color that they follow through the whole show with, except for Peggy who's only in two scenes. Sorry, Peggy. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Womp-womp.

Sarah  

But Angelica and Eliza both have their own colors. And I like how Eliza is in a cool tone, and she is sort of like a cooler head. Then Angelica is, she's-- Angelica is a little fierer, so I like that the their colors reflect that. You would think looking at these that they are corseted. But I think what's actually happening is that the bodices themselves are really heavily boned. And Bernadette Banner said that too, and I trust her. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah, you can see like the hint of a bone in the front of Angelica's... bodice?

Sarah  

Bodice, yeah.

Jojo  

I was gonna say "corset," but it's not a corset. But yeah, you can see like, a very tiny hint of it. Yeah, it's very well disguised.

Sarah  

Yeah, this is-- that's pretty common, I think, instead of corseting someone, to make the dress itself boned. That's what we have in our "Christmas Carol" at South Coast Rep. All of those bodices are really boned.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So I think that's a good way to sort of give you the period silhouette without restricting your actor's range of motion. And it makes quick changes way easier.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Sarah  

And it's just more comfortable.

Jojo  

Minimizing the amount of extra layers to take on and off...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...is always helpful.

Sarah  

Yeah. And they definitely have sort of like the period kick-out at the hip. The volume is really big horizontally at the hip, which is kind of-- probably achieved with like, bum rolls. I haven't-- I would love to see... maybe it can be found out there on the internet. Like a picture of them... their undergarments.

Jojo  

Like an under structure picture. Yeah.

Sarah  

So this is Angelica at the ball. And you can see like, she still has her same colors, but it's just like a different dress, you know? And for the ball they all have this style line that goes diagonally across the bodice that makes it look almost like it's a little jacket on top, but it's not. So they-- these are the other two sisters, and Eliza's actually looks like it's not just seamed together, it's laying on top of it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

To give it a little jacket-y feeling. And then Peggy's does too. So that's interesting. But I like...

Jojo  

Peggy's dress looks very "Beauty and the Beast" in this picture.

Sarah  

It does! Yeah.

Jojo  

It's very Belle, like...

Sarah  

[sings] Tale as old as time...

Jojo  

...this is the dress she should have worn in the movie.

Sarah  

Oh, God. [both laugh] Maybe we should cover that movie at some point.

Jojo  

I was gonna say, I was like, "Mmm, there are so many comments on that dress."

Sarah  

People have FEELINGS about that dress.

Jojo  

Yes, absolutely.

Sarah  

People get real pressed about that dress. [both laugh] Yeah, so... what do I have here? What's interesting, and that you might not know if you don't watch the show, if you only listen to it, is that the Schuyler sisters are on stage for a lot of numbers that they're not actually "in." They are... they act as members of the ensemble, and lots of times they're on the top level looking down at the action. So I think that's fun, gives them more stage time. The Schuyler Sisters, and sort of all of the women in this show, do something that is a pet peeve of mine, which is they pick up their skirts a lot. And you can see Peggy's doing it in this picture. I-- it annoys me because their skirts are not touching the ground. They're a good few inches off the ground. And I think that's for safety, and because they're on a turntable.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

So that means that they should be able to walk fine without picking up their skirts. [laughs] But they do it so much that it almost seems like it was an intentional choice?

Jojo  

Right. I wonder if that was an actor intentional choice versus a director saying, "They need to look like they're busy doing something," you know? Like, sometimes you get that and it's like, "...What?"

Sarah  

All three of them do it.

Jojo  

Oh gosh.

Sarah  

And I think the ensemble women, when they're wearing their skirts, also do it. And so I'm like, "Wha-- why?!" [both laugh]

Jojo  

They've been built so you don't have to do that!

Sarah  

It's a note that I will give to actors. If I'm designing a show and the actor is picking up their skirt too much, I'm like, "Stop it." If it's dragging on the ground, you need to tell me that you can't walk in it. Otherwise don't mess with it, unless you're going upstairs, but even then sometimes you might not need to do it.

Jojo  

I dofeel like sometimes that's a psychological thing, though, it's the fact that they aren't used to wearing so much skirt, and all of a sudden they have to think about, "I can't see my feet, and where am I going to put my foot?" And even though psychologically they know that it's not long enough to trip them, it's this fact that they have so much more volume than they've ever had to think about on a daily basis.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's true.

Jojo  

So that's a very real-- I mean, I've had that with an actor before, where it was-- it was horrible trying to deal with a skirt that was from the Victorian era, because she just couldn't figure it out. And it was always...

Sarah  

They're scared of tripping.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

Yeah, And no-- I mean, nobody wants to trip and fall onstage. So I understand that. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah. But yes, I can understand why that would be a pet peeve for us.

Sarah  

It's a pet peeve. [both laugh]

Jojo  

So funny.

Sarah  

So then moving on, we see the passage of time in the women's silhouettes, too. So this is going to be-- this is Eliza's dress that she wears, she changes into it around the Reynolds pamphlet scene. And then when she sings "Burn" she's wearing this, and then she wears it for the rest of the show. It's very pretty. I have a close up shot right here of the smocking on it. Gorge.

Jojo  

So pretty.

Sarah  

It's like, Swiss dot?

Jojo  

I do love a good smocking.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. It looks almost nightgown-y in "Burn," and then-- but then when she's on stage in it in other scenes, it doesn't look too much like a night gown. So it's like it's... dual purpose dress.

Jojo  

Yeah. Oh, and for those of you who don't know what smocking is, it's essentially a surface treatment that we put onto fabric and it creates like a... it's almost like running an elastic through the costume and kind of ruching the fabric a little bit so that it creates a really nice... I don't know how else... I'm explaining this very horribly. [both laugh]

Sarah  

It's gathers, tightly concentrated gathers.

Jojo  

Right, exactly. And it's usually in several rows. So you'll see like a series of gathered rows.

Sarah  

And it's a historical technique, it's been around for a really long time. Nowadays, people do it with elastic, but you know, in the olden days, it was just with thread.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

There's a lot of new techniques of smocking now.

Sarah  

Yeah. I've never actually done it. Which is funny.

Jojo  

It just takes a lot of time if you're actually trying to do it the right way. So I get why people don't do it as often.

Sarah  

My dear friend Tessa did it for a shirt that was going onstage for SCR's production of "Sweeney Todd." And she spent so long on it, and then...

Jojo  

Oh, I can imagine.

Sarah  

...it was covered with a jacket for most of the show. And we were all so sad for her. [laughs]

Jojo  

Of course! Yeah, I mean, there's so many books about smocking that I've seen that I want to try, but then I'm like, "Ah, who has the time to do this?" [laughs]

Sarah  

Not me.

Jojo  

Definitely not.

Sarah  

So yeah, she adds-- Eliza adds this black pelisse jacket on for "Quiet Uptown," which is when her son is dead. So like, everybody goes to black for that scene. Because it's very somber, obviously, very sad, and it'll make you cry... makes me cry in the car. This is not a very high quality picture. Whoops. Oh, well, but I like the sleeve.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

That's why I pulled it. Oh, this is Angelica's sort of traveling outfit, I like it a lot. It's a little more complicated, you know, it has more going on than her other outfits do.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

But I like... like I said, it shows you sort of the progression of the time period.

Jojo  

I feel like where we don't have surface decoration in this show, Paul Tasewell did a lot with the types of fabrics he chose.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

Because it still exudes richness and wealth without having to be overly decorated.

Sarah  

Yes, I love his combination of fabrics and trim. And it's so-- it's very monochrome, you know, because they have--these characters have--their own specific color that they kind of stay in. So that's its own challenge in itself, to make something interesting when it's all one color, or like varying tones of the same color.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

I think it's beautiful. So this is King George.

Jojo  

[laughs] My favorite.

Sarah  

This is the most historically accurate costume in the show because it is like a replica, basically, of a portrait, I think.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And Bernadette Banner said something that I thought was really insightful, which is that the fact that it's the only one that is so accurate makes-- is in itself a device, a storytelling device.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Because it represents that he is the old... old world, strict, buttoned-up Britain that these revolutionaries are escaping from.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So I thought that was really... a really good point, that it-- using his strict historical accuracy can be in itself a storytelling device.

Jojo  

And then to completely poke fun at that.

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, he's ridiculous. [both laugh]

Jojo  

It's so great.

Sarah  

He's ridiculous.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I also think this is a an interesting costume because that cape is probably very heavy, and he's wearing so many layers, and he has this big ol' crown on, that his movement is quite restricted. So the actor has to give a really big performance without really being big with his body. And...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...that's one of the advantages of watching it on video as opposed to live, which is that you can see his face!

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

So it's-- it's a different experience of seeing it live, you know. I don't think that one is better than the other. But I think that it's nice to be able to see Jonathan Groff's tiny little expressions that he does. He's so good.

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

And his spit. [laughs]

Jojo  

Definitely not something I would have caught if I was actually in the audience...

Sarah  

Right!

Jojo  

...in a live performance.

Sarah  

I mean, they're... the body language-- I'm lucky enough to have seen this show live twice. So the body language, you can see it. Like, I saw it once pretty close, and then I saw it again pretty far back. So...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...the body language you can read, but the facial expressions are a lot less hard to see. I mean, [laughs] a lot harder to see in person.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And he's also the only one in a powdered wig, which is notable too, because most of them would have been in wigs, especially like...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...when they're in their office or whatever, doing their...

Jojo  

Or deliberating.

Sarah  

Right, their cabinet meetings, that kind of thing.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

That's another thing I wanted to say about that, is that I love how there's no wigs in this show, except for this one. I don't know if Renee Elise Goldsberry is wearing a wig. But if she is, it's made to imitate a natural style.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So that's another way that he makes the show look so modern, is by the actors using their own hair, which is very unusual.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Especially when we have so many African American actors in this show. Like, they have the advantage of being able to style their hair in so many creative ways that I think lends itself to that hip hop movement, too.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like, natural Black hairstyles have for so long been suppressed, you know, they're... people see them as less professional or less elegant.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And I love that we're finally doing away with that nonsense. And celebrating different textures of hair! Like, let's do it.

Jojo  

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah  

Yeah, that's... is that all? I feel like that was a lot. [both laugh] Oh, I wrote in my notes...

Jojo  

It's a very big show!

Sarah  

It is a really big show. And I edited out some stuff, like I ended out Washington, even though he looks great, too. You know, everybody looks great. I could talk about all of them.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I did write in my notes that I think that the simplicity of the period looks is smart. Because the stage is often so crowded that if everybody was in super elaborate stuff like King George is in, your eye would be so overwhelmed, you would not know where to look. So I think that that's really effective. I already, when I watch this show, every time I'm like, "I don't know who to watch," because there's always so much happening on stage. I love the choreography, but I want to watch the leads, and they're singing and they're emoting.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then the turntable adds to it. So it's...

Jojo  

[laughs] Yup.

Sarah  

...it's just like a visual...

Jojo  

...every element of this show.

Sarah  

It's spectacular! So I think that Paul Tasewell was smart, did a lot of smart design in this show. I think that's my thesis statement of this presentation. [laughs] Very smart design.

Jojo  

Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, people think that with costume designers you have to go huge or really big. And I think sometimes simple can actually make just as much of a statement as someone or something that's a little more complicated.

Sarah  

Absolutely.

Jojo  

So yeah, I think a lot more of the simple is actually sometimes... I don't want to say "better," but like, but I've seen a lot of shows that I feel like the simple served much better than over-surface-decoration or just over the top exaggeration.

Sarah  

Yeah, sometimes less is more, you know?

Jojo  

Yes, absolutely.

Sarah  

In this show, definitely. So yeah, that's "Hamilton."

Jojo  

Yay!

Sarah  

Please-- I know that there are people in the world who haven't seen it, and I want to encourage them to watch it. Because...

Jojo  

Yes, definitely. I mean, I will say I didn't even get a chance to watch it until it went to Disney+. So like, I'm very, very grateful that they were able to get it onto that platform. Because I think it's like you said, it allows theatre to be so much more accessible to people who can't normally access it, including artists that work in the field.

Sarah  

Right, yeah.

Jojo  

Because like, we can't always-- one, we don't always have the time to go and see a show. And two, we don't always have the money to afford a Broadway show.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jojo  

So yeah, I think it's huge. I think that it's great that they did that.

Sarah  

I'm someone who is not anti-bootleg, either. Like, a lot of people who are in theatre are anti-bootleg. And I think that if a bootleg video is like the only way that a kid in the Midwest can see your show...?

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

You shouldn't be anti-that, because don't you want people's...

Jojo  

It's exposure.

Sarah  

Right! You want people who love it to be able to see it. And yes, it's probably about money but like, not everything is about money. People need to access art.

Jojo  

Well, and also for that kid who loves theatre and literally has no other access to seeing a show. It's kind of like stifling that creativity for them to be able to pursue a career in that, if they don't even know where to look for it.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

Or know how to get into it, or... you know, any of that. I think... it is all about education and access, I think.

Sarah  

And we don't want theatre to become a rich person's art form. Like, that's... that sucks.

Jojo  

And so ironic to me, I think. [laughs]

Sarah  

I know!

Jojo  

Maybe it's just because we aren't, I guess, considered established designers, even though we've been designing for a while. But like, I think there can be a certain level of elitism that comes with theatre that's only for the rich and wealthy.

Sarah  

Yep.

Jojo  

Whereas if you look at the arts, and the history of the arts, like it's... it's meant for the everyman.

Sarah  

Everyone, yep.

Jojo  

You know. So yeah, I'm totally in agreement with you on that.

Sarah  

[both laugh] Thank you.

Jojo  

I'm glad we're on the same page, Sarah.

Sarah  

Me too. I will say that I would have only seen "Hamilton" once if it weren't for my mom, who really wanted to go when she was here. We went in LA.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah.

Sarah  

And then the second time I was in Orange County, and that was-- I bought a season ticket to the performing arts center. And it ended up being like, $30 a show, which is so reasonable!

Jojo  

Oh my gosh.

Sarah  

Yeah! So...

Jojo  

That's crazy. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. And so...

Jojo  

That's like, unheard of.

Sarah  

I know. It was-- we saw a lot of other good shows too that year. So we were subscribers, up until the world shut down. So...

Jojo  

Right, right. That's awesome, though.

Sarah  

Look, if you guys are-- you know, local, look at your local performing arts center. They have really reasonable, you know, like weeknight tickets for tours...

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

That kind of thing, GoldStar's great. You know, find your cheap tickets.

Jojo  

So many options and sources.

Sarah  

Exactly. I mean, once the world is back, obviously. So... not right now.

Jojo  

Well, and I guess-- again, I'm hoping that this kind of exposes more people to the other ways that they can still see theatre, including, you know, online. Like, Irish Rep has been doing a lot of these Zoom productions, which has been really great.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And, you know, as we get more and more Zoom productions, you know, a lot of theaters are-- just to stay open, they're even... I mean, they have to offer it for free. But they're offering their productions online for free. So more and more people, I think right now especially, have access to seeing more shows online in a legal way, as opposed to trying to bootleg it.

Sarah  

Right. I love what the National has been doing. They will...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

They've been doing YouTube streams. And I've watched a couple of those and they're spectacular. And like, I-- you know, I haven't been to London since I was a teenager. Like, it's not like I can get over to the National to see what's on, usually.

Jojo  

Right, right.

Sarah  

So it's really nice to see those. I hope more theatres keep doing stuff like that.

Jojo  

I think that's how I watched a production of "Frankenstein."

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

With Benedict Cumberbatch. Oh, my gosh, it was so good.

Sarah  

That was the one where-- was that the one where they switched roles? Where it was like...

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

...the two actors played both and they would switch?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Each performance. It's cool.

Jojo  

I didn't see... I can't remember the name of the other actor, which I feel really horrible because he's actually a pretty big name.

Sarah  

It's the guy from "Elementary," right?

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

Is it Jonny something?

Jojo  

I actually watched it where he was Frankenstein-- sorry, he was the monster. And then Benedict Cumberbatch was Frankenstein, which I heard was actually... I don't want to say that's the better version. But I heard that was the one to watch. So... so yeah, it was really good.

Sarah  

I watched their "Jane Eyre" and I watched "One Man Two Guvnors," which was so funny.

Jojo  

Oh, interesting. I know Fullerton just did that show. So I've never actually seen it. But I heard it was funny.

Sarah  

It's really funny. His name is Jonny Lee Miller.

Jojo  

Oh, thank you. Yes, Jonny Lee Miller.

Sarah  

But we digress. [both laugh]

Jojo  

We got very distracted there at the end! But yeah, so that's our episode for today. Hopefully you guys enjoyed the coverage of live theatre, and hopefully we'll be able to cover more in the future once we figure out how this format's gonna work.

Sarah  

Yeah. If you know of others that you want us to cover, please get in touch. I know there are a few, like there's-- "Newsies" has a professionally shot one that's on Disney+.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

There are a couple other big Broadway shows that have professionally shot versions we could watch, or we could look into more live streams, that kind of thing.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

We'll keep you guys posted.

Sarah  

We sure will.

Jojo  

For our next episode of this month, we're really excited, we're going to be getting our first guest artist as well.

Sarah  

Woo!

Jojo  

So we will be bringing in Bronwen Burton. She works at Fullerton, but she'll give a more detailed introduction once we meet her on the next episode.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

But please join us for the next episode of this month. We're really excited to share other people's expertise with you all. And hopefully you guys also enjoy this episode.

Sarah  

Yeah! [laughs]

Jojo  

Thanks, guys!

Sarah  

Thank you! See you next time!

Jojo  

All right!

Both  

Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Episode 9: Emma (1996) & Emma (2020)

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

And I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo  

Okay.

Sarah  

All right. Hello!

Jojo  

Hello!

Both  

Welcome back...

Jojo  

...to The Costume Plot. I'm Jojo.

Sarah  

I'm Sarah. It's good to have you here.

Jojo  

We're so excited.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Today we're going to do something a little different. We're going to actually compare two movies. There's a lot of remakes, actually, recently. In the movie world, there's a lot of old movies that are getting revamped and redone. So we decided to take one of these movies and take two different takes on it and kind of break down how they do costumes and how we feel they were successful. Or maybe not so successful.

Sarah  

Yeah, and this is... so, we're both doing "Emma." I'm doing the 1996 Gwyneth Paltrow one. And Jojo is doing the recent one. And yeah... I love Jane Austen a lot. And I love watching any-- pretty much any version of Jane Austen adaptations, I'm on board. It's It's always a good time. And it's always gonna be pretty to look at.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. I do love the Regency era... period.

Sarah  

Me too.

Jojo  

I think it's a really lovely period. And it's a really nice silhouette on guys and girls.

Sarah  

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Okay, so I'll jump in. I'm going first. So yes, like I said, this movie is from 1996. It was directed by Douglas McGrath. And the costumes are by Ruth Meyers, who works a lot. She did "The Golden Compass" and "Ella Enchanted" and "The Addams Family." And she's been nominated for two Oscars, and one of them was for this. And then the other one was "Addams Family." She hasn't won any Oscars, but she's been nominated, which is always a big deal.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I didn't realize that this movie had been nominated for Oscars, but like, it kind of makes sense. Like, a period drama is always gonna attract that attention, especially for the costume design Oscar.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So our setting is, of course, England in the early 1800s. The novel was published in 1815. So that's about where people usually put it in time. And I couldn't find any interviews with Ruth Meyers about this movie, I think because it's old. So if there were any it'd probably be in a magazine and not online.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

But I did find one site that was like-- it was-- it's a blog, like a costuming blog. And they were comparing a bunch of different versions of "Emma." And I'm not going to say the name of the blog, 'cause it doesn't really matter. But they said that for this movie, the costume designer "abandoned historical accuracy..."

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

...which I thought was a hilarious thing to say. And also, I disagree. Because what she meant--what this person, the blogger, meant--was that like, a lot of the fashions are more like five years away from where they're supposed to be. And I'm like, "that's not exactly 'abandoning' accuracy." It's just kind of... fudging it a little.

Jojo  

Because realistically, they wouldn't have worn whatever is right at the-- the climax of that era anyways?

Sarah  

Right. She was picking out specific little things being like, "Well, this was from 1812, specifically, so it wouldn't..." and I'm like, "but that's still within 10 years!" Like, that's pretty darn good. It's not like they're all in mini dresses with their hair down. [both laugh] So that was... it was just like, that was kind of an extreme thing to say, I think. Because "abandoning historical accuracy" and picking something that's about five years away from where you set something; those are two different things.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

It's just very funny and nitpicky.

Jojo  

Very different.

Sarah  

So this is the Regency era of fashion, which is one of our favorites. We love it. It's very inspired by like, classical Greek styles. So the silhouette is very relaxed. It's like a column. We've really gone away from the big, crazy silhouettes of the late 1700s. So like, Marie Antoinette style: lots of surface decoration, and crazy colors, and huge wigs, and giant skirts; those things are of the past now, and we're in a more... I don't know, simpler, much simpler silhouette. And part of that is because of the French Revolution. And those big crazy fashions were associated with like, the French aristocracy and royalty. And no one wanted to be associated with that anymore. So it was like they had to swing in the completely opposite direction to get away from that period.

Jojo  

I love the little history lesson we're getting.

Sarah  

[laughs] Well, you know, it's for people who might, you know, hear "Regency" and be like, "What's that again?" You know.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

It's Austen times. That's a-- that's an easy way to remember.

Jojo  

It's typically around the years of, I would say, 1810-18, maybe latest 1820. But probably be even a little bit before that.

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah. I think people say, like, 1805-ish.

Jojo  

It's like 1816 or something like that.

Sarah  

Yeah. Once again, we're not experts. [both laugh]

Jojo  

And really, I mean, if you think about history of costume, everything kind of did overlap. Nothing ever just stopped right at a certain year.

Sarah  

Right, exactly. So yeah, I don't think that this movie is inaccurate, in a glaring way. I think whatever liberties that Ruth has taken serve the story and help evoke the emotions. And the blogger called it an "impressionistic" view. And I think that that's kind of accurate. It's-- you know, you want to evoke the feeling instead of making it a carbon copy. And so this first picture I have is a good example of it. This is Miss Bates. And she's like, the spinster. That's what they call her. You know, she's an old maid.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

She's unmarried, ergo... she is dressed a lot older than our leads are. She's wearing a much darker color than all the other young ladies wear. And everything is a lot fussier-looking. And she has another look. Let's see... yes, this one is from much later in the movie, but she's wearing a mob camp, which I read is usually associated with married women. But I think probably if you're like-- if you've decided you're an "old maid..."

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...you can probably wear a mob cap because you're like, signaling to everybody that you've given up? I don't know. [both laugh]

Jojo  

It does look kind of Amelia Bedelia in the image that you've given us.

Sarah  

Oh, poor Miss Bates. Yeah. And this color is like... it's just an oatmeal, kind of sad taupe and...

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

But I will say that this is this particular one, this beige one, is a good example of looking for historical accuracy in the character that the audience is supposed to see as mumsy or old.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Because she has a long sleeve on, and a lot of Regency dresses should have a long sleeve, and there are not a lot of long sleeves in this movie.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And she has a higher neck, and a lot of Regency styles have a low neck, but I think for everyday, most women would probably choose a higher neck than we're seeing in this movie.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I mean, it's communicating what it's supposed to communicate. Also, I felt really bad for her. I feel so bad for Miss Bates.

Jojo  

[laughs] I do too. They definitely made her look like a super nerd in this movie.

Sarah  

This actress is really good, though. I don't know her name. But like, there's that scene where they're all at the picnic and Emma makes fun of her. And she was so good in that scene. I feel like I should look up her name and shout her out. Hold on one sec. Just 'cause like she...

Jojo  

Do a little IMDb on her. Yeah, it's funny because I did not look back at the old "Emma" when I watched the new one to prepare for this. But it is interesting seeing even just the comparison as you're going through. I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's what she looked like in the original movie."

Sarah  

Okay, so this actress's name is Sophie Thompson. Great job Sophie.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Yeah, actually I wanted to watch yours too. But then I like... procrastinated and put it off, and I didn't feel like watching two "Emmas" yesterday. So...

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

I was like, "I'll just watch it later."

Jojo  

I know, I was gonna say, I was like, "that would be a lot, to compare the two." But it's cool to be able to see the before and after, or the... the first and the latter? [both laugh] Whatever you wanna call it.

Sarah  

The nineties and the now.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Alright, so let's move on to Emma herself, played by Gwyneth Paltrow, of course. I picked this pink look, for when she's doing archery, because I liked... it looks really billowy and tent-y in this shot, but it's just because it was windy, I think. She has this little... thingy holding up her skirt for archery?

Jojo  

Oh, interesting.

Sarah  

Which... I thought that was interesting and kind of fun. And you can see her shoes which is... also fun. [both laugh] She's wearing a little buttoned-up boot. And the color I think is... I don't know, like, a little bright. Here's another picture of it. I mean, it looks pretty washed out in this picture. It's like a pastel pink. I like the stripe on it a lot.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

She wears pretty much all pastels and whites in this movie, and it really gives her that youthful air. She also doesn't have a lot of surface decoration, trims, like... not a lot of sparkly stuff, not a lot of jewelry. And that gives her sort of the... she kind of doesn't have a care in the world, you know? She just kind of throws something on and goes about her day, because she's kind of frivolous and spoiled. But in a youthful, naive kind of way.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So I think that the clothes fit. Also shout out to the hair in this movie. I think the hair is excellent. I have a couple pictures where it goes kind of 90s.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

But like, this one, it's pretty dang good. She's got her center part. She's got her little curls coming down.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Pretty good! Lots of times, the place where you see the era that the movie was made is in the hair.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Which is always so fascinating to me. This is a cloak she wears. I liked this a lot. It's like, the party where she goes, and then Elton--Mr. Elton--like, assaults her in the carriage. [both laugh] Side note, as I was watching this movie I remembered I have already covered "Clueless," which IS "Emma."

Jojo  

Yep. Yep.

Sarah  

[laughs] It's so funny how "Clueless," it hits the exact same story beats. It's amazing.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yep.

Sarah  

I love that movie. Anyway. [laughs]

Jojo  

Also isn't... I'm trying to... yeah, it is Alan Cumming for Mr. Elton in this movie! [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah, it's Alan Cumming. I love him. He's--

Jojo  

I do too.

Sarah  

Listen, anytime he's on screen, I'm like, "he's welcome."

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I love to see him.

Jojo  

I forgot he was Mr. Elton. I do love him as as Mr. Elton in this movie.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. So this is one of the examples of the hair getting a little bit 90s. It looks kind of like a 90s prom updo.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I think it's because there's no part and it's pulled a little tight.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I think that Regency styles were a bit more relaxed than this.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

But I also pulled this because I like the cloak. But I'm also unsure of what this fabric is. Like, is it supposed to be fur or is it supposed to be high pile velvet?

Yeah, I was thinking about that-- or like, a velveteen or something?

Jojo  

Yeah.

I don't-- it is a little strange. It's hard to tell.

Sarah  

Yeah, it looks like a really plush blanket. Like, my mom is really into blankets like this right now.

Jojo  

[laughs] Love it.

Sarah  

So it looks exactly like those. [laughs]

Jojo  

She just needed to be warm!

Sarah  

Yeah, I mean, it's in the snow. So it makes sense. I like the big hood.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

That's fun. I liked it, you know, I didn't dislike it. It was just an interesting fabrication choice.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then here-- so, she wears so many clothes in this movie that I had to just kind of grab a handful and then just let the rest go. And I don't have a lot of specific stuff to say about...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...any of the individual looks after this. It's just kind of like, "Look at this! Look at that! Look at that!"

Jojo  

[laughs] "It's pretty!"

Sarah  

So this is one of her first looks, it's a nice white. She wears a lot of white. And then we have Harriet over here, who's very youthful, and even more naive than Emma.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And then this is another one. Like a green-y brown-y plaid with a red wrap. Very pretty. This is a party look. I like this one a lot. It's like a sheer with... it's like a chiffon with a satiny stripe in it.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And we're seeing once again, she's wearing jewelry but it's very simple jewelry. She's got her sort of 90s updo again. Don't have much to say. [both laugh] Then, I like this one. This is them in the carriage, and she has this little, like...

Jojo  

Capelet?

Sarah  

Capelet! Yes, that's the word. [both laugh]

Jojo  

I was like, "is that what that is?"

Sarah  

I was making a little motion, like...

Jojo  

[laughs] I did love that.

Sarah  

I like the fringe on this a lot, it's very pretty. I don't know.

Jojo  

Oh, I thought that was just an eyelet lace. That's cool.

Sarah  

It's like a lace with fringe hanging down, like a little...

Jojo  

Oh yeah, that's super nice.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

For those of you looking at this on Instagram, please zoom in.

Sarah  

Yeah, zoom in, zoom in. Also these are screenshots, and like, this is as HD as this movie gets. Which is not very.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

Do I have anything else to say about her? No. And then this is one that she wears to go to tea with Mr. and Mrs. Elton. I like the color of this. And the sort of, like, taffeta of it.

Jojo  

Ooh.

Sarah  

Also I like whatever...

Jojo  

That's a lovely green.

Sarah  

...whatever trim is happening on the neckline and on the sleeves. What is it? ...Unclear. It's pretty. It just looks like a little dashed line. But it's like...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...it's like a cord or something, maybe? Piping? Really skinny piping?

Jojo  

Maybe. I wonder if they did an actual basting stitch, or you know, a running stitch but with... with some kind of cord?

Sarah  

What's that called... couching? Couching is like when...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...when you sew around a piece of cord.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Yeah, it looks kind of like that.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Okay. My thing for this one is gonna be kind of short, because it's just kind of like, "Pretty! Great. Love."

Jojo  

[laughs] That's okay. That's kinda how I feel.

Sarah  

Yeah. [laughs] Here's some Harriet. She didn't wear a lot of things that I was super, like, "gotta talk about it." I do like this plaid number. It's got these really pretty frogs on the closures.

Jojo  

Oh yeah.

Sarah  

Which, if you don't know, frogs are closures that are made of cord and they're little knots that hook-- that loop into each other. I've made them before, it's very hard.

Jojo  

They're used on a lot of Asian garments as well, as closures.

Sarah  

Yes, yes. This is where she was in the rain.

Jojo  

Or, I should say, Chinese garments.

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah, specifically. Yeah, I had to make them for... I had to make frogs for "M. Butterfly," I think. It was really difficult.

Jojo  

Oh, you MADE them?

Sarah  

Yeah! [laughs]

Jojo  

Interesting.

Sarah  

We made the-- we covered the cord, and then you have to wrap it and stitch it in place. It was... I don't... I didn't like it.

Jojo  

That's intense.

Sarah  

I don't want to do it again.

Jojo  

[laughs] "I didn't like it!" [both laugh] I will say, the plaid on this does remind me a lot of the kind of color palette that they used in "Clueless."

Sarah  

Oooh, yeah!

Jojo  

For that character.

Sarah  

I also like how it's on the bias. The lines are going at a diagonal. It always makes it more interesting.

Jojo  

Great job, construction team, for lining up those lines!

Sarah  

Yep, it's perfect.

Jojo  

It's beautiful.

Sarah  

We love a good pattern match. Here's a shot of it standing up. So it doesn't go all the way down. Like, it's just the... oh, is it a jacket?

Jojo  

It might be a Spencer jacket.

Sarah  

It might be a little Spencer. Yeah.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Little cropped jacket. Oh, and I was gonna talk about bonnets. So, most of this movie, Gwyneth Paltrow is not wearing a bonnet when she's outside. And as we said in our last episode, in most periods, if you went outside, you had a hat on.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And...

Jojo  

And gloves.

Sarah  

Yes. Oh, I think that blog I was reading said that bonnet-less women were-- that was a look that was reserved for prostitutes? And I was like, "Really?" [laughs]

Jojo  

Well, I think it was kind of like a point of shame. I mean, it's the same as like, military men wearing their hats out of respect, right? You know, when they're uncovered by a roof, they're supposed to have some sort of a military hat on. So I think it's the same thing with women at this time? There was this idea of needing to wear one to show your piety or your status, I guess.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah. It's so funny. That's such a foreign idea now.

Jojo  

Right, right. 'Cause hats are just so not a thing. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. But like, even as recently as the mid 1900s, you know, 1950s-1960s, people were still... if they were dressed up, if they were leaving the house, they were wearing a hat and gloves.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah  

And it's so funny how quickly that that kind of just like left our public...

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

...you know, rules. Or our consciousness.

Jojo  

It's interesting to think about how that transition must have happened, too. Because the first people to not wear hats probably looked like they were being disrespectful. Or, you know... or a prostitute. [laughs]

Sarah  

Well, yeah, and that would probably be like... yeah, counterculture of the 50s and 60s. I feel like those were some of the first people to really do that. And like, they were definitely seen as disrespectful. As like, hooligans, you know.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Hippies, or like, beatniks, or whatever.

Jojo  

Anyway.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Side note.

Sarah  

I also think that the bonnets are a little bit small in this movie. Most of the time when I've seen this period, they're a little bit larger. But I'm also not sure if that's wrong or not. It's just like, what I've seen.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Usually. What do I have next? Oh, this is Ewan McGregor. Forgot he was in this movie.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

He plays Frank Churchill.

Jojo  

I forgot about that, too.

Sarah  

And I haven't talked about any men yet. But I will say he is a big contrast to the other men in the movie. He is a lot flashier, a lot more of a dandy. And it's like, his long, wavy hair, his fancy top hat. He just-- he looks like he's always really caring about what he looks like. Sort of like a fop. Is that what we call it? I don't know.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

This is a good example of this. It's what he wears to the party, one of the many parties in this movie. [laughs] I feel like they're always going to the party. It's like a burgundy velvet coat with a lovely patterned waistcoat underneath.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I think it's beautiful. And then I want to talk about Mrs. Elton, who is very silly.

Jojo  

Oh, Mrs. Elton.

Sarah  

She is a great contrast to all the other women in the movie, because she is kind of... she's rude. And she's kind of like-- I saw her described on the Wikipedia article for "Emma" as "nouveau riche," which means that she's recently wealthy, so she's kind of like, tacky about it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So she wears much darker colors than everybody else, which is an automatic way to contrast her.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

And then her hair is also like-- I don't know, it's exaggerated in a way that makes her look comical.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And these, like-- this style with the curls on the side, it's totally period. But it looks-- compared to the other women, it looks much more exaggerated.

Jojo  

It's almost heading a little into crinoline era.

Sarah  

Yeah. I think that when the curls move over the ear is when that's... a thing. I don't know, though. Somebody tell me if I'm wrong.

Jojo  

Regency era still had some of the curls over the ear. But it was starting to move kind of around the back of the head and the side.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

I think, in the crinoline era. It was kind of more ringlets all the way down.

Sarah  

Yeah. Like, yeah, that's definitely a hairstyle I associate with "Christmas Carol."

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Oh, and she has this really weird bonnet. Get ready for this bonnet. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Oh yeah! I did forget about that one.

Sarah  

Look at that!

Jojo  

It looks like she's surrounded by a clamshell. Like it's about to eat her head. [both laugh] And she's the pearl coming out of it.

Sarah  

Also, this actress is doing a great job doing crazy eyes in this movie. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

She's really selling it. This is a picture of the whole outfit. So like, compared to everybody else, she looks very silly.

Jojo  

Yeah, it literally looks like an oyster shell on her head.

Sarah  

Yeah, I've never seen a bonnet like this, if I'm honest.

Jojo  

[laughs] That's a pretty unusual one.

Sarah  

Yeah. I like her dark green outfit, though. It's pretty. She wears a lot of jewelry too. So that's another way that she contrasts with Emma and with the other women. She's like, very tacky and exaggerated. But that's... that's fun. That's fun to look at.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

All right. And then I'm just gonna finish up by talking about Mr. Knightley. And I don't have a lot to say. He just looks really good. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah, this I do love this rendition of Mr. Knightley.

Sarah  

He's good. He's really-- he's handsome, but kind of like in an understated way.

Jojo  

Yeah, I think that's one of the things I loved about him. I randomly saw... I can't remember what I was watching. I was watching something else completely unrelated. And this was like, years after this movie came out. But I recognized him because he was playing a completely different character. And I was like, "why does this guy look so familiar?" And then I realized this was the last movie that I'd seen him in, and I was like, "oh, duh!" [both laugh] But yeah, it's so weird to see them out of the element that you're used to seeing them in.

Sarah  

I feel that way about the guy who plays Mr. Darcy in the Keira Knightley "Pride and Prejudice."

Jojo  

Yes!

Sarah  

He's in "Succession," which could not be...

Jojo  

I have not seen that.

Sarah  

...a more different character. He plays an American guy who's like a total... I don't wanna say "twat." [both laugh] But he's kind of... kind of a putz.

Jojo  

I saw him in-- I don't know if you've ever seen "Death at a Funeral."

Sarah  

Yeah! That's an older one. Yeah.

Jojo  

Yeah. He's in that one. And that's the other thing that I remembered him from. So I was like, "This is so weird."

Sarah  

He's so dashing and so handsome in "Pride and Prejudice," and then it's like, you take him out of the Regency outfit and you're like, "oh, okay." He's just a guy.

Jojo  

"Oh, you're not as cool."

Sarah  

I mean, no offense, he's still handsome. But he's extra handsome in "Pride and Prejudice."

Jojo  

That's kind of how I felt about this Mr. Bingley. Or... not Bingley. This Mr. Knightley, as well. I'm mixing all of my Austens now.

Sarah  

They all end in Y! Bingley, Darcy, Knightley.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sarah  

Yeah, so he's in cool tones for most of the movie, which is, you know, nice. Like it. This picture is from when they're dancing. And I love how every Jane Austen movie has to have a dance scene where they're like, you know, touching hands and making eye contact as they kind of... step around each other.

Jojo  

[laughs] Yeah. It's all about what's unsaid.

Sarah  

Exactly.

Jojo  

And the almost-but-not-quite-touching.

Sarah  

Yep. Flirting in an 1815 kind of way.

Jojo  

[laughs] Yes.

Sarah  

And you can kind of see Mrs. Elton behind Emma over here. And she's wearing this very like... her dress kind of has a cape?

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

It kind of has a Grecian-like red drape that goes around the side, which I thought was fun.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah, yeah, I can see that.

Sarah  

I didn't pull any pictures of it. I think it's because I had too many pictures. And I counted all my pictures to make sure I could fit them in an Instagram post. And I deleted some.

Jojo  

That's good.

Sarah  

Yep, I learned my lesson.

Jojo  

I was trying to do that with mine too. I was like, "Alright, how many can I fit in one square?" [both laugh]

Sarah  

Exactly. And then-- yeah, so this is just from the final scene and he looks great, and I liked it. The end.

Jojo  

The end! [both laugh] Yay, Emma 1990s!

Sarah  

That's your 90s "Emma." I hope you enjoyed my really not-thorough analysis of it. [both laugh] Truly I was watching it and I was just like, "I don't know what to say except these are pretty."

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And I like 'em.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely. I feel like, you know, this movie in particular is very much about like, "how do we make these characters look pretty?"

Sarah  

Yeah, and I mean, Emma's world is-- like, the book opens by describing her as selfish and sheltered. So it is kind of like you're making a fantasy world. And I can see that in the sort of pastels and the dreamy landscapes and stuff.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

That was definitely successful in this version.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

All right, so...

Jojo  

Yay!

Sarah  

Your turn.

Jojo  

Do you mind if we take a quick break?

Sarah  

Yeah! [short musical sting]

Jojo  

So of course, we are still covering "Emma," I'm going to be covering the 2020 version of this movie. And this actually, this movie was actually a directorial debut for Autumn de Wilde. So she is typically a photographer and video artist. She's done a lot of music videos. She's also taken a lot of really famous celebrity photos. So that's kind of what she was known for before. And she also does a lot of movie posters. So actually, all the movie posters for this new version of Emma were photographed by her as well.

Sarah  

Oh, cool.

Jojo  

And that's actually-- it's a pretty clear visual that you see throughout this movie, like you can definitely tell it's from like a photographer's eye. And the visuals are very much about like, "how can we make this the most picturesque scene ever?" It's very apparent throughout this movie. The costume designer for this was Alexandra Byrne, who we have met before, she again did "Murder on the Orient Express," which we covered before. But she's also done "Mary Queen of Scots," "Doctor Strange" a lot of the Avengers movies, "Guardians of the Galaxy," "Elizabeth: the Golden Age." And so in terms of her variety and her scale of stuff that she's done, she's pretty used to this large scale, grand scale of things.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So I would probably say this is probably a smaller project for her, if anything. So one of the things I wanted to talk about... we've already talked about the setting, this is still England, we're probably between 1815-1820 or so. One of the blogs that I was looking at was called Willow and Thatch. So these are a couple of the things they were talking about with her costumes. They said, "Alexandra Byrne's thoughtful choice of various Regency era garments and textiles give us a better grasp of each character's role in the story," which was very accurate. And then "throughout the period drama we are treated to visually pleasing dresses. Their production's overall palette is pastel, as if the mood board started with a box of macarons," which you absolutely see with this. It's definitely a delectable delight of treats. The iconic white muslins of the Regency are everywhere, as are small scale printed cottons. The first image that I have here is, of course, my favorite. It's the first Spencer jacket that we see her in. And not only is the cut and the silhouette of this Spencer jacket accurate, but you can kind of see here, I've placed it side by side with an actual museum piece. Which is... basically it was essentially copied from this museum piece that was an 1817 garment at the Chertsey Museum collection. So this is kind of like the perfect example of how a costume designer sort of simplifies an already existing garment, or kind of changes up small details. So that we're not directly copying an actual garment that exists, but that we're putting our own spin on it without completely just scratching a new idea or... you know, because none of this is like original ideas. It's talking about real garments that exist in a real time. And I love that the costume designer really tried to honor the accuracy of the time period by doing that. So that she kind of still took her own take on these details and then was still able to make it this beautiful garment. So not only is the piping pretty, you know, it's pretty similar to the original. Obviously she simplified the collar of this coat. And you can see it's a lot more busy up top.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And that's one of the things I think that you'll realize with this newer version of "Emma," which I found really interesting, because she doesn't keep her in all pinks. She does have quite a variety of different colors that she kind of wears throughout this movie. But there is a sense of... she's always going to be done up very fancy. I think the costume designer talked a little bit about how basically she has, I think... sorry, I totally didn't write this down, which was me being unprepared. But Willow and Thatch also mentioned that there's, I believe, five or six total like Spencer jackets, and another six, what they called "pelisse." Which is another... it's spelled p-e-l-i-s-s-e. And it's also a formal type of outerwear that was worn during the Regency era. Which is basically kind of fitted on top, and it sort of still meets at the empire waist. So right under the bust, but then it actually flows all the way to the floor. So the Spencer jacket is sort of a shortened version of that without the tail-- the long, you know, floor length coat, part of it. And then the pelisse is sort of a longer version of that, with that same idea of the fitted top.

Sarah  

I didn't know that word. Today I learned.

Jojo  

Yes. So one of the interesting things about all of those outerwear things was that the blog actually talked a lot about how the costume designer really took the time to understand what this woman's real closet would have looked like. She's someone who is wealthier, she's someone who comes from an upper class, she would have had the money--you know, the spending money--for shopping, that would have been common at this time for ladies of her age to be going out and buying all of these things. And one of the other things that I do love about the way Autumn has directed this movie is that she shows a lot of that "behind the scenes" of how people get ready.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

And how people actually dress. So like, there's a scene where we see Emma actually getting a pelisse tailored to fit her. So she has, you know, they show the unfinished pelisse coat. It sounds like I'm saying "police coat."

Sarah  

PO-lice, yeah. [laughs]

Jojo  

But... it's like a pel... pelisse.

Sarah  

Pelisse.

Jojo  

I don't know how to say it properly. I'm probably saying it wrong. But the pelisse coat basically is left there with all the tailoring...

Sarah  

The tacks.

Jojo  

...stitching.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

That's in there. And then it also shows the pleating and all the different details that are on there as if she's getting it finished. And in the next scene, they show the finished coat after she's gotten it completed. So like, it really shows you that process of not just Emma's clothes, but also the world around how these clothes are made. There's a scene where they even show Mr. Knightley, how he gets out of his clothes and then puts on his next outfit.

Sarah  

Ooh.

Jojo  

So yeah, there's just a lot of like fine details. I think Autumn, as a photographer, is always paying attention to these things, I'm sure. And so you can see that detail is applied in the rest of the movie as well. So I've wanted to start with this because I do love the Spencer jacket. I think it's just so attractive. And it's so beautiful. And the fact that this much detail went into this. And even then, she's "simplified" this from the original. It just goes to show how much detail went into those garments at that time, because those were things you were wearing on a more regular basis. And the Spencer jacket was not meant to keep you warm, it was a typically a lighter fabric, or it was a lighter garment. So the fact that this is something that would have been worn probably out in public much more often than, say, a winter coat, it means it's getting a lot of screen time, for lack of a better word.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

So onto the next one. This is just another outfit because, again, we talked about bonnets with the old "Emma" as well. And bonnets were a very big feature in this movie, she's pretty much always seen with a bonnet anytime she goes outside.

Sarah  

Wow!

Jojo  

So again, really, really accurate to the time. Really paid attention to the world and how they lived and what they would have been wearing. This is also just another really quick zoom in of this beautiful sleeve.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Like, look at the way they've layered that, it's pretty incredible.

Sarah  

That's amazing.

Jojo  

And then the other thing I wanted to focus on, too, was just that attention to detail with the inside of the bonnet being covered in lace. Because most of the other ones... I mean, all the bonnets have a certain layer of lace on the interior of the brim. Which you'll see in a couple of the other photos I'm gonna pull up. But the fact that her entire interior is just lace on top of that pink is pretty incredible.

Sarah  

Pretty luxurious.

Jojo  

As are a lot of her other bonnets. It's just kind of... I think that's where she kind of over accessorizes, is on her hats.

Sarah  

And lace is expensive in this time.

Jojo  

Yes, very much so.

Sarah  

I feel like bonnets are usually like the first thing to go in these kind of movies.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Where people are like, "We want them to look beautiful to a young, modern audience."

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

"So the bonnets looks so stuffy and weird. So we're just gonna take away the bonnets." So, it's so interesting that this is a movie full of bonnets! [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely. So this was the next image I wanted to focus on. And again, this is a better example of a pelisse. So you can kind of see, it still has that sort of fitted top that we saw with the Spencer, but it continues down onto the sides here. Some of the pelisses actually closed in the front, this one just happens to close over the sides a little bit. But I do love this color. So this one, actually, was really important. Because one of the things that the costume designer did was she contrasted Emma's character to show her wealth by putting her in that fitted pelisse. And then for the Harriet Smith character, they actually put her in a red cape. So the red cloak was actually considered and called a "riding hood."

Sarah  

Hmmm.

Jojo  

Basically, that's what it is. But that was actually a typical standard for country outerwear. And so they actually showed a picture of a watercolor that was... I can't remember who it was written to be by on the website. But basically, it depicted life in the Regency era. So it was a whole book of things that people would wear, you know, the habits of that day. So the accuracy of just taking those garments, that not only put Harriet Smith at a very different class level from our main character, but also took accurate clothing from that time period. I just... again, kudos to this costume designer, she really did her research for this. And I love that she did kind of marry the idea of being as historically accurate as possible, while still taking her vision as a costume designer to a different level.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

The other thing that you'll see here, and you don't really see it in this image, and I didn't choose to focus on it specifically, is that they're in pretty much the similar color palette. But you can see that underneath, Harriet is actually wearing kind of... it's like a Spencer jacket shape. But it's actually a knit maroon cardigan.

Sarah  

Really!

Jojo  

So I just found that really interesting. Again, kind of just making... and we've talked about this in the past, how kind of knitwear--or sweaters--tend to make you a little bit more casual. Or it kind of brings down the classiness of a garment? I don't want to say that, because that's not necessarily always true. But there's a softness about knitwear that is not going to give you the same effect as something that's a little more structured, like this pelisse.

Sarah  

It makes you a little more homespun, a little more country.

Jojo  

Yes. And that is very much what Harriet Smith is. I mean, even in the way that her bonnet is decorated. It's so simple next to this ginormous, you know, velvet thing that Emma has on.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

This is probably one of her more simplified hats, which I just thought was kind of funny. But you know, again, it's such a striking and very saturate image that we see her in here. And I think that's one of the things that really characterizes this movie, in comparison to the old "Emma," is that it kind of feels like they've like pumped up all the colors, and it's much more saturate than the Gwenyth Paltrow version.

Sarah  

And do we think that that's like a... 1990s versus a 2020s thing? Like, the ideal of...

Jojo  

It could be. I do feel like, I don't know, I can't remember. I'm trying to remember if it was like, we just didn't have a lot of saturated colors. Like it just wasn't a thing to be super vibrant in the 90s?

Sarah  

I just-- I think that that one, you can definitely see... the 90s--a lot of 90s fashion--is really streamlined, you know, like Cher's white dress in "Clueless" that's literally just a tank top.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So, that kind of thing, I could see the 90s in the 90s "Emma."

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

So I wonder... I'm looking for the 2020s. I'm like, "What are the hallmarks of the 2020s in this movie?"

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

I feel like we won't know until 10 years from now, you know?

Jojo  

That's true.

Sarah  

But it's interesting to think about.

Jojo  

And I will say, you know, as we've been looking at a lot of the recent things that have been coming out, the other thing I was thinking about when you said that was "Bridgerton," right?

Sarah  

Yes!

Jojo  

It's a lot of that same... it is pastel, but it is that kind of "macaron color" world, where it's a lot of candy colored pastels, you know?

Sarah  

That one's making a big splash because of how bright the colors are.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And then this... that made me think of that Hulu series about Catherine the Great. Is it just called "Catherine"?

Jojo  

Oh, yes, "Catherine." Uh-huh.

Sarah  

Where she wears that hot pink gown. So like...

Jojo  

Or, is it called "The Great"?

Sarah  

"The Great." That's what it is. Thank you. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yes. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. But yeah, I think that's definitely coming back in, especially with period stuff. Like, we're seeing a lot of that period, but we're amping up the color so much more.

Sarah  

That's how we're making it look modern now, is by like putting a colorful twist on it.

Jojo  

Yeah. Which is so fascinating!

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

You color forecast, I guess.

Sarah  

But I love it. I love it because I love color. So I'm all for it.

Jojo  

Me too. So again, I think... you know, same thing. We apply the same kind of color saturation to the menswear as well. And this is our Mr. Knightley, who... I think they made him a little bit more rugged than the previous Mr. Knightley, which I love. Johnny Flynn plays our Mr. Knightley in this version.

Sarah  

I love him.

Jojo  

And again, I didn't show these pictures because it's a whole scene that happens where he gets into this outfit. And it's like, he comes from walking because he walks everywhere.

Sarah  

Aww.

Jojo  

So there's this whole thing about how he doesn't take carraiges because he just likes to walk outside instead. And so he comes into his house. And then he gets... like, the first scene, we see him and he starts off naked, and then he's putting on all of his clothes. So you literally see him put on, you know, his shirt first. And then his servant actually helps him put on his ascot. And then you see him put on the vest, and then you see him tuck the shirt into the pants, and then button up the front fly pants. So it's like you see that whole process, and then you see his servant, help him get his final coat on. And I love that the director has honored that process, because that is a part of what they were doing every day to get dressed. And that was a part of who they were, and a part of their society. And all of that made that culture. And why, that whole idea of flirting and dancing, all of that was part of that world. Like, they didn't have TVs to just sit around and watch like we do. So...

Sarah  

They spent a lot of time getting dressed. Getting dressed was like a big part of your day.

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

So I like that.

Jojo  

And it also goes to show his wealth, because he has a servant who helps him do all that. And he does live in this huge Abbey. And one of the biggest things that happens at the end of this movie is that he says he's willing to give all of that up so that he can stay with Emma. Because he knows she'll never leave her father's house, and her father will never leave his house. So it's this huge sacrifice, because you've seen all of the things that he's giving up, and you see the wealth and the prosperity that he lives in. And all of that goes to show, like when he puts on this final layer of his coat. It's this... I mean, I can't do it justice in this photo. But it's this beautiful, buttery, almost orange-yellow?

Sarah  

Caramel.

Jojo  

That is... yeah, it's a very beautiful caramel color. So when he first puts it on, he is wearing this dark navy blue underneath. And then he's got this complimentary yellow on top. Again, it just goes to show the level of wealth, the level of prosperity that he comes from, and he's a very educated man. So everything is very clean, and everything is very put together. Even when he walks to Emma's house in the first scene after he's gotten dressed, he talks about how basically he's walked through an entire field, and his boots have been left un-muddy, you know. So it's just this whole idea of his persona, like there's this very clean... he's very put together, he takes very good care of his appearance. And that's something I think a lot of this film focuses on, is the idea of each person and how they interact with everyone else. We talked about Emma being this, you know, kind of naive and sort of spoiled personality. And I feel like with Gwyneth Paltrow's version, it's a little bit more pithy? Whereas I feel like this version, Emma is very... I don't want to say "sociopathic," but it's almost like she just doesn't know how to empathize. Like...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...she just constantly gets annoyed at everything. And she's very like, "Well, you're not meeting my standard." And she just doesn't know how to interact. Like, she knows how to help people, because that's what she likes doing. But it's always for a specific reason, or there's always some kind of motive behind it. So I think-- I talked to a few friends who saw this movie after having seen the other "Emma," and a lot of the criticisms were that she just wasn't likeable. And I was like, "But that is kind of who her character is," to a certain extent, until we get to the end.

Well, she shows a lot of growth over the course of the story. So...

Yes.

Sarah  

...it's okay for her not to be likable in the beginning, because we need to see her learn her lessons, you know, and grow.

Jojo  

Yeah. And I think the other reason, maybe, that I like this movie a little bit more was because I also felt like I could relate a lot with this version of Emma. [laughs] Which sounds really bad. But like, I think I tend to have that mentality. Sometimes I'm kind of like, "Well, why can't you just do this?"

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, same. [laughs]

Jojo  

And I think that's very much how she's portrayed in this movie. It's that kind of like, "Well, you can't be right, because I'm right." [laughs]

Sarah  

Right, right. Yeah.

Jojo  

I think, you know, when she does finally get to that point where she's able to change, you see more of that redeeming factor, I think, at the very end. And even at the end, when they have their whole final talk, there's this cathartic moment between the two of them where they're both kind of like, "I know that you can never accept me because I'm this way. And I do all these things, I've lectured you, and I've been so blunt and blah, blah, blah," and then they still come together and say, "But I still love you, in spite of all that."

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So, again, I just felt like it was a really good portrayal of that relationship. Okay, so moving on. So this was the image that I meant to talk about earlier, where it's that watercolor scene of what they wore that time. And it was those white muslin dresses that were so iconic of the Regency era, and then those red capes that they talked about. So it was typically worn by students, which, in Harriet Smith's case--particularly in this movie--they basically have her because she hasn't... basically, they don't know who her parents are. And she doesn't find out until the very end who her father actually is, because she isn't of age yet. So she's very young, she's kind of student age. And so there's a couple scenes where they actually show Harriet Smith walking into a... it's like, it's not really an orphanage, but it's basically like a boarding house, I guess. Or a board house. And all of the students, anytime they walk outside with the teacher, are always in these red capes. So it's this line of basically like the Madeline girls, you know.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Where they line up in two lines, and they all wear the red capes and walk around.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So I wanted to put that in there, just because I think it does... [zooms in too far] Ooh, didn't mean to do that. [both laugh] Because it does show just the accuracy of the research that this costume designer took from. And there's a couple different looks, too, that are kind of like that. So then the other costume that I really wanted to focus on... one thing that I haven't mentioned with this movie is that there's... I think this has been kind of the case with a lot of recent movies. "The Favourite" is another movie that kind of does the same thing, where it takes a period and then makes it very comical-- kind of a parody, almost, of that period. While trying to be...

Sarah  

I would love to talk about "The Favourite" in the future.

Jojo  

Huh?

Sarah  

I would love to talk about "The Favourite".

Jojo  

Oh, yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Sarah  

The costume design in that movie is so interesting. And like, the story behind it is so... anyway. So cool.

Jojo  

Side note! [laughs] Next movie. But I do love that in this particular version of "Emma," Bill Nye... he is basically the comic relief. Like, there's nothing at all serious about him. And I kind of just feel like the director was just like, "Just be yourself and just do whatever you want!" Like, that's kind of how I felt with this movie. Because half the time he's, like, jumping down the stairs, and he sort of just makes this very comical idea of, like... doing his Bill Nighy thing. Where he sort of just says something, and then it kind of just disarms you a little bit. And then he kind of just moves on, as if he didn't say it. [laughs]

Sarah  

God, I love him.

Jojo  

One of my favorite looks for him is this. It's like loungewear. And you can't-- there's a couple other pictures, I'll show in a second, where it shows the full length. Because this only shows you the top. But I love that the costume designer just made him blend into his background to become his wallpaper, or his chair.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

And it really goes to show that he really is attached to this house, like he has become a part of this house, he will never leave this house. He was born and will die in this house. And he will become part of the house eventually, you know? So it's this idea that he's already starting to kind of blend in. And there's a couple moments where he kind of... he asks his servants to place fire separators... or like, they're room separators. But he has two different levels of room separators. So he's got the regular ones. And then he's got a kind of knee-height one. So there's a couple scenes where he's just like, surrounded by room separators. [both laugh] But he's created his own little room, and he's sitting in this chair and everything is sort of this over-patterned brocade. So he's just kind of blending into his own house. [laughs]

Sarah  

That's wonderful.

Jojo  

But the other thing that I wanted to say about this magical garment is that it's not just the vest that matches, but it looks almost like a long smoking jacket.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Obviously it kind of is double-breasted, kind of buttons over itself, but it actually reaches the floor. So then the moments where he basically comes into a room--there's a couple scenes where he either runs into the room very quickly, or he jumps down the stairs--he's in this look. So you kind of just see him sort of create a little Superman cape with it. [both laugh] 'Cuz it's just this long garment. It's so Bill Nighy, and I feel like it works really well for his character.

Sarah  

It's interesting because it's almost like it's a robe or a dressing gown. But I've never seen a robe or dressing gown with this style of collar. This very Regency menswear collar. So interesting.

Jojo  

Definitely not. Yeah, if anything, I feel like this might have been one of the looks that might have been more of a design... created look? As opposed to some of the other ones. Because I'm not sure how much historical accuracy was taken from this particular look.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So some of the other things that I wanted to focus on--and most of these I'm going to go through pretty quickly--but this was that kind of jacket I was telling you about, where they really show the tailoring. And you can see, a couple of her coats... there's a few of them that have this same kind of tuck-pleating that's in the back in a radial fashion. I dunno... how do you describe that? It's like small pinched tucks in the back of the clothing that you can top stitch over?

Sarah  

They're like a little... a little pinch, and then you sew it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Like a tiny little seam. If you need to know more just Google it. [both laugh]

Jojo  

But again, you also have the Instagram photos.

Sarah  

Yeah, you can see it.

Jojo  

That kind of gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. But she actually has this on two of her coats, on the yellow one that's in the cover photo for this movie, as well as this blue one. But she features that a lot, because a lot of the fullness that was happening from the 17th century--rather than being pushed out and kept full, like it was at the end of the 1700s--because we're going more column-like, all of that fullness was actually nicely pleated into the back. And so that's where all of that fullness ended up. So it kind of gave you almost a little train in the back.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So you see that with a lot of her pelisse coats.

Sarah  

That's also a way to add visual interest without putting a bunch of trim on something. It's just using the fabric and manipulating it.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

It's a way to make it look designed, but it's not fussy or complicated. I mean, it was probably was complicated to put together. But it doesn't look complicated. You know what I mean?

Jojo  

Right. It looks simple.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So another zoom in for one of her other Spencer jackets, this gray one, which I love. It's just... I think the sheer amount of detail on this is just beautiful. And even just the small pleated... epaulets?

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

They're not really quite epaulets. But it's like a sleeve puff that she's added on her sleeves. And she also has that same ruffling around her collar as well. So you can see it on her neck. Very, very delicate.

Sarah  

Like a cupcake liner, almost.

Jojo  

Yeah, exactly. So this is when she first meets Trank... Wow, can't talk. [both laugh] This is when she first meets Frank Churchill, or at least sees him. She hasn't officially met him yet. But I wanted to focus on just the detail of this coat, and just it showing the wealth and the prosperity that she comes from. As well as the-- again, the lace interior of her bonnet. Just... everything is so put together in this look.

Sarah  

Beautiful.

Jojo  

Then for this look, I wanted to show the comparison between Harriet and Emma. So Harriet, at this point has started to dress a little bit nicer. One of the things I was reading about on the same blog--that was kind of going through and sort of analyzing all of these historical accuracies--they talked a lot about how during this time, women actually would have worn a colored slip underneath.

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

Because the white was actually the iconic dress of that time.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo ��

So rather than wearing a colored, you know, white frock, they would actually have the color underneath for the slip. And then the frock would always be white on top. So it would allow for that color to show through. And it would be a much more subtle version of that colored version... frock, I guess.

Sarah  

That's so interesting.

Jojo  

So I love that they kind of showed this comparison between the two of them. We're still keeping Emma in her pinks. And likewise, they both have their outerwear, their gloves, as well as their bonnets that they're wearing everywhere. Harriet is obviously much more simplified in the... like, just the level of over-the-top that she's wearing. Specifically in their bonnets, I wanted to focus on how much more accoutrements Emma has on her bonnet in comparison to Harriet. And also just the fact that where Harriet has placed this bow makes her look even younger than she already is, in comparison to Emma. Whereas Emma's kind of more gathered look is much more classical, and it looks a little bit more mature, which... we kind of see that relationship between the two of them. What else did I write on here? Nope. That's all I had to say about that one. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Great!

Jojo  

Okay. Moving on to the next one. One thing they did mention in that, which I guess I should have mentioned... they were talking about how, you know, it's possible that Harriet didn't necessarily get all those for herself. Maybe they were things that either she got as a hand-me-down from Emma, and then she figured out trims and things that Emma maybe would have suggested when they go shopping.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Which is very common, I think, in this time, because clothing was so much more precious. It wasn't just fast, quick fashion, like we have today. Where, you know, once it's done being used, you just toss it.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Most of these dresses, you would either hand repair it yourself in order to fix it, or you change something up, add some new fabric, to try and make it more updated. As opposed to completely throwing out the whole dress and just saying, "Alright, well, time to buy a new dress."

Sarah  

Yup.

Jojo  

Because no one really has the money to do that.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So I do love that that could have been like a little backstory for Harriet, where she got some of these dresses. Because some of her dresses do look like they could be older versions of what Emma wore earlier in the movie as well.

Sarah  

That makes sense. I mean, clothing being disposable is a very new idea. Right?

Jojo  

Yes, very much so. Okay, so then for this one I really just wanted to pull this scene because... again, it goes back to that whole candy striper... you know, like pastel that we were talking about. Each of these girls is, you know... these are the girls--are the students in the boarding house that Harriet is staying with. But I love that amongst all these girls, she's the one wearing the most atrocious looking outfit.

Sarah  

[laughs]

Jojo  

I mean, it's just so mismatched. Like, she's got this very multicolored cardigan sweater.

Sarah  

Yeah, thats...

Jojo  

This isn't the best image of it, because it was literally... like, I took a photo of the screen. So it's a little more kind of warmly washed out.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But I love that you can see just how different she looks in comparison to even the girls around her. Which, you know, she's not that much lower class than maybe some of these girls are, but because she has no parentage, and because she doesn't know where she came from... the idea is that Harriet Smith's status is just so far below everyone else in that town. Because she has no way of knowing where she came from.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So yes, I just love that this is such a huge contrast to everyone around her. So that's why I pulled that image.

Sarah  

That's fun. It's very different looking.

Jojo  

Let's see. Okay, so the other thing that I wanted to focus on, too, was not just how this... you know, because this is probably one of the more muted palettes throughout this entire movie, in comparison to everything else. And this is when they're actually visiting Miss Bates's house, and they're first seeing... I just forgot her name. But... Jane! Jane Fairfax. [laughs]

Sarah  

I got SO confused. I had to have the Wikipedia up the whole time, because there's so many characters.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

And this happened to me when I read the book, too. I listened to it as an audiobook and I was like, "...WHO?! I forgot who all these people are!" [both laugh]

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

There's a lot of characters in this story.

Jojo  

So Jane Fairfax, in this movie, is the one that basically ends up marrying Frank Churchill. And so there's this whole hidden marriage that they have. But Miss Bates, I believe, is Jane Fairfax's cousin, or aunt, or somehow related to her. And so Jane Fairfax basically comes to the house, and Miss Bates as the town gossip... and interestingly enough, in this movie, she is not quite as plain as the one in the 90s version. But the way that they've made her kind of dull and not quite so interesting, I guess, is to put her in these like really tiny... I want to say "prairie flowers." I don't know if you know what I'm talking about. It's a very prairie-look pattern.

Sarah  

Like a.... what's it called? Is it called a "ditzy" floral print? It's like when it's teeny tiny?

Jojo  

Oh, I don't know if that's the official term.

Sarah  

I'm gonna look it up. Google it.

Jojo  

Maybe someone out there can tell us as well. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Is that her on the left?

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

Oh, okay.

Jojo  

So Miss Bates is the one that's to the very left. So Harriet Smith is in the middle, and she looks quite miserable here. Emma, interestingly enough, you know, this is the first time we really see her in this kind of plaid gingham. But I love that even here, she's kind of the most... the most nicely decorated, I guess, out of the three. Like, this jacket actually gets recycled quite a few times on Harriet, because it's probably the one coat that she owns. And then Miss Bates, a couple of her other scenes, she's always in something pretty dull and pretty muted or understated. Until Emma's wedding, where she's in a slightly more turquoise color. But most of her other looks are very similar to this, they all have that kind of really tiny floral print.

Sarah  

So I googled it, and "ditzy" refers to a very small scale print. And it's most commonly used for florals. So I don't know if that was a term at this time, but it is now.

Jojo  

Right. Okay, cool.

Sarah  

So now we know.

Jojo  

I'm learning new things too! [both laugh] So I do love that one of the things they feature on Miss Bates quite often, they do put her in this. And it's not quite a mob cap, but it definitely looks a little bit more like the mob cap that they had in the 90s movie as well.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Which, again, you can see a lot of the same translations, in terms of costumes, are copied over from the 90s version of "Emma," but they kind of updated it, they changed a few things. And I think she also tried to honor the historical accuracy a little bit more. But one of the other things that I find really great on Miss Bates is that they always have her in this kind of... it almost looks like an Elizabethan collar.

Sarah  

I was gonna say that.

Jojo  

But she always has this kind of like crazy frou-frou thing around her neck.

Sarah  

It's like a ruff.

Jojo  

Yes. But it's like... it's not a uniform ruff like you would see in the Elizabethan era. It's very organic and kind of just flies all over the place every time she talks, which is very much like her personality.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

In this movie, she talks so so much and the whole idea is that she's constantly annoying Emma, and she's, you know, she's kind of... I don't want to even say she's the town gossip, because it's not like anything she says is malicious. She just likes to share information about herself.

Sarah  

She talks in the book way too much. I would space out. Like, it would be five minutes. A whole monologue.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

I was like, "is this really in the book? I can't believe it."

Jojo  

I imagine that that's how these conversations must have felt, with whoever this real person was that Jane Austen was maybe inspired by.

Sarah  

[laughs]

Jojo  

But yeah, anyways, I just wanted to show this comparison of the three characters, because it really does go to show how much costume can, you know, identify character. And very quickly give us that first five second impression.

Sarah  

I mean, yeah.

Jojo  

Just from looking at this image.

Sarah  

She looks so different from the other two women.

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah. And in terms of class, you can already see the distinction between the three ladies as well. So I did want to point that out in this particular image. So I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this one, because I actually wasn't super hugely a fan of this dress. I didn't think it was ugly or anything, but I did... this is the dress that she basically goes to the first ball with. And it's... I believe it's Frank... no, not Frank Churchill's ball. It's another ball. There's so many balls in this movie.

Sarah  

[laughs] Like I said, they're constantly at a party.

Jojo  

Again, she doesn't wear this for very long. But I wanted to show this. So this is actually the museum version, I believe. And then they kind of essentially recreated it in the version that was used for the movie. So you can see very clear, like, she's definitely copied this dress. Almost exactly. But the other thing I wanted to mention here... nope, didn't write notes about this one. [both laugh] Sometimes that happens! But I think one of the things I wanted to say was that during this time, they mentioned that knitting was also created. Because the bobbinet machine... oh, I did write it down! So in 1809...

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

This is the fun fact I wrote down, the mass production of line netting was available, because John Heathcoat created, or invented, the bobbinet machine.

Sarah  

Oooh.

Jojo  

So it allowed for this kind of colored net that was used on the top layer of a lot of these dresses for this time. So not only was he able to get it in color, because it was be able to be mass manufactured much more quickly. But he was also able to create netting much more quickly. So again, just the idea of just having the accuracy of the time period, having history really imbue itself in this costume design and in the process of research. So I did love that.

Sarah  

I love the museum one, it looks almost like it's glowing.

Jojo  

Yeah. Yeah

Sarah  

I love that effect. It's so pretty.

Jojo  

Yeah, and you don't quite get the same effect on her dress...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...but I can see where she kind of tried to get that same idea. And obviously, having the layer underneath, it could have just been the fabric that she chose for this particular image. This is also just an Instagram image. It wasn't actually from the movie.

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

So lighting doesn't always do us any favors, unfortunately.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

All right. The next one I wanted to focus on was her ball gown dress, and this was for Frank Churchill's ball. So she's got this beautiful... again, going back to that cream-colored, the iconic white dress. In this case, it's actually not a muslin, it looks like it's almost a chiffon or maybe... not really sure, maybe an organza on top?

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

It doesn't look like it kind of drapes as well, but I love that on this one, there's such a three dimensional effect with the leaves that she's got on here. And the flowers, the three dimensional flowers also continue on the hem of this dress.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So it kind of encircles the hem. But I love, love this image, not just because it also showcases the traditional tuxedo on the men, but also just the kind of ethereal quality of the white on her. And even though this isn't the climactic dress that she wears, for any reason, the fact that this is the ball that she's trying to dress up for Frank Churchill--because she still thinks he's in love with her and doesn't know about Jane Fairfax yet. But yeah, so, I just love this image. And it's just so beautiful. And again, hair, I think we're pretty accurate in this time period as well. Or, the hair designer.

Sarah  

Looks lovely.

Jojo  

And again, just those small ringlets in the front, and even just the ringlets in the back.

Sarah  

There's... it's such a tight little curl. Really pretty.

Jojo  

Yeah, and she definitely uses that a lot in this movie for all the characters. So then, again, this is not in order. This is kind of just by whatever is on my Google Drive. [both laugh] So I love this idea for Frank Churchill because, again, it's almost like this watermelon idea. We talked a lot about green and that pink.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

When they're combined, it does give us that watermelon effect. And so this is when she first gets introduced to Frank Churchill and they're finally talking. So she's back in her kind of pink Spencer jacket, and then he's in kind of a complimentary, almost sage-colored green, as opposed to a brighter green. But I love that he's got this little pink popping out and then his vest is actually pretty elaborately embroidered.

Sarah  

Mmm.

Jojo  

And I love that the colors have been combined in this way. Because it definitely... it's their way of showing him as the dandy, without being crazy over-the-top, because most of his other coats are just... I would say just as colorful as even, say, Mr. Knightley is. Because Mr. Knightley has some pretty rich colors on him.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

But I think they tried to kind of give him that dandy effect by adding other things, like embroidery and topical surface treatments and textures. So one of the last dresses... this is actually the one that basically she gets proposed to in, by Mr. Knightley. And I love that we've returned to this kind of green, and the embroidered delicate, very detailed idea on her dress. We still have that white. But now instead of having the color underneath and showing through like we did in some of the other scenes, we have this new embroidered idea on both her puff sleeves, as well as on the actual skirt itself. We're also bringing in some, I think, more contemporary color palettes because we've got this kind of ombre dyed belt, which probably was not common during that time.

Sarah  

It's beautiful, though. I love that little touch.

Jojo  

I do. And it's interesting because, you know, we talked about her being more mature and having a more classical silhouette. But this is actually one of the times where she actually has a bow, but it's kind of off the side. It's not right in the dead center, like we saw with Harriet. So, a couple other photos of the dress. So this is the last scene of her talking with Harriet. So yeah, it's interesting because, again, this is also the period--or the point in the story--where Emma has finally kind of realized that she's made all these, you know, kerfuffles, with all of the matchmaking that she has been trying to do. She's messed everything up. And she's finally realized that, you know, she was standing in the way of her friend this whole time. And so now she's trying to be sacrificially out of the way.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

While also trying to come to terms with her own love for the same person.

Sarah  

Yep.

Jojo  

So again, that whole delicacy of the green and the flowers in particular, that motif--even though it does kind of hit a little bit more... the nail on the head--but this idea of growth, that she's trying to become this new person, that she's trying to understand from a different perspective and not just look at her own selfishness.

Sarah  

Also green versus pink. It's like green is more earthier, it's more natural, so going away from girly, frilly into more natural--of nature--colors. I mean, pink occurs in nature, obviously. But you know what I mean.

Jojo  

Right.

Sarah  

Like, it's almost like she's more grounded.

Jojo  

Yes, yes. Literally. [both laugh]

Sarah  

Literally. Like a tree.

Jojo  

Okay, and then, of course...

Sarah  

Oh my gosh.

Jojo  

...some of the final images, I just wanted to focus on her wedding dress. But yes, her governess at the beginning, Miss Taylor, we see her wedding in the beginning. And it's much more like... she's dressed much more down to earth. It's a very country wedding. Like, you can just see the level of sophistication that Emma has in this image, as opposed to Miss Taylor. And then I love that they've put Johnny Flynn in this beautiful rich blue.

Sarah  

Gorgeous.

Jojo  

It's like a blue velvet, for his tail coat, which actually he does wear quite a lot of that color--his vest underneath that caramel, buttery-yellow coat that he had on earlier is also in this kind of same color palette. So I love that the costume designer has put him in these really yummy colors that really contrast, and kind of compliment, his hair as well.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So I think she did a great job with that, so... good on you. [laughs]

Sarah  

He also has beautiful blue eyes. So I think that...

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

...putting him in a blue that kind of echoes his eyes, that's very nice.

Jojo  

Yeah, absolutely. So just really briefly, I just wanted to touch base on who becomes Mrs. Elton. And so in this case, obviously they've still made fun of Mrs. Elton. She's this, you know... like we mentioned, very she's recently come into all this money... with this crazy hair. Like, they've literally created a bow and slicked it back in her hair.

Sarah  

It looks like... like a "hair show" hairstyle. You know?

Jojo  

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah  

You've seen hair shows, right? Yeah, it looks like that.

Jojo  

Yeah, like I almost thought this was an actual fake bow that they put on top of her hair. And then I realized it was literally like they had slicked and like...

Sarah  

Shellacked.

Jojo  

...it almost looks like they glued hair? Around the shape? And then just left it there.

Sarah  

[laughs] Yeah. Wow.

Jojo  

So yes, they've obviously used a little bit of the curls on the side to indicate the time period, but like, the bow up there is just... it's just so out there.

Sarah  

It's so wacky-looking. [laughs] I love it.

Jojo  

And the fact that she, again, has these crazy eyes. And it kind of just looks like she's this weird goldfish with all these orange colors she's got underneath. [both laugh] So yes, I just wanted to focus on her because, you know... Mr. Elton, in this case, is already hilarious enough, but then he's got this even crazier, kookier wife now that has to rein him in. But yes, casting wise, I think this movie did phenomenal. Costume wise, it's so beautiful to look at. So if you haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend it. And it's also pretty historically accurate. So yes, that's my take on the 2020 "Emma"! Woohoo!

Sarah  

Yay! Great job. I'm excited to watch. I've been like meaning... like I said, I'm a procrastinator, and I never get around to watching movies. I've wanted to see it since it came out.

Jojo  

Oh, you and me both. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah, so I should watch it this week.

Jojo  

This is why we're friends, Sarah. [both laugh]

Sarah  

I just like... probably a lot of people can relate to this. But I'll be like, "I don't have te mental capacity for a movie right now." So I'll instead watch, like, six hours of TV. And it's like, how is that different? It's not. [both laugh]

Jojo  

I feel like I'm the same way. It's like I have to be in the right mood for a specific movie. [laughs] It's harder when it's a show, where it's like, "I have to find out what happens next!"

Sarah  

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, shows just... they keep you hooked.

Jojo  

Yep, yep.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

All right. So that's our episode for "Emma." Hopefully, you enjoyed the side by side comparison.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

And if you have seen both movies, you can let us know whether you feel like we were accurate or not accurate, or just tell us more about some of the things we had questions about.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

All right. Well, that's all we have for today's episode. I'm Jojo.

Sarah  

I'm Sarah. Thank you so much for listening.

Jojo  

Yep. Bye!

Sarah  

Catch you the next one. Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[thecostumeplot]

Bonus 1: Bridgerton

Please consult these links for accompanying images: Bridgerton 

Both  

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah  

and I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo

All right! Welcome to our bonus episode!

Sarah  

Surprise!

Jojo  

Extra episode this month. I'm really excited. We, of course, are trying to cover some smaller things around... you know, this is going to be our first of many bonus episodes, hopefully.

Sarah  

Yeah, this is gonna be a little more informal, like, not as much research. Just kind of a discussion about what we think. And of course, we're talking about "Bridgerton."

Jojo  

Yep.

Sarah  

We have-- I know that you said that people have been asking you. People have been asking me too, if we're going to cover it. So here it is.

Jojo  

[laughs] Yep!

Sarah  

You're welcome.

Jojo  

I know. It's finally here, the episode. [laughs]

Sarah  

Hopefully we're not too late in the game, I feel like it's still getting a lot of buzz. So I feel like we're right in the sweet spot to tell you about.

Jojo  

It is, it is. And like I'm-- you know, there's been so much other coverage of "Bridgerton." So this is certainly not going to be hugely different than maybe whatever else you were hearing...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...about "Bridgerton." But these are just kind of our thoughts as costume designers, as people who have been doing this for a long time. Just to kind of share, you know, instead of the bashing, maybe, that we've been hearing about the show. Talking a little bit about kind of... what are the purposes behind it? And how to really talk about design in an intelligent way. And maybe not so not spending so much time on the negative, I guess.

Sarah  

Yeah, I don't think we're gonna get too spicy, I don't think we're gonna have really hot takes about it. I think that...

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

...in general, we can usually find positives and negatives in pretty much everything and...

Jojo  

Very true.

Sarah  

...that doesn't mean that it's bad, or not worth our time.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. Before we get into that, I did want to make a quick announcement for our next month's episode, we are going to be covering our first musicals, which I'm super excited about.

Sarah  

Woohoo!

Jojo  

But one of the ones that we do want to cover is actually going to be "Meet Me in St. Louis." And the reason why we wanted to bring this up is because they do actually have online Zoom performances. So this theater, it's the Irish Repertory Theatre in New York, they're an off-Broadway theater, they do a lot of really great work. But for this particular production, they are doing a predominantly Zoom production. So it is going to be "live theater," but all over zoom. So I'm really excited about how this is going to be done.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And excited to see this take, because this is a really great show. It's actually one of my favorites, it was one of the ones I did in high school.

Sarah  

Oh!

Jojo  

And I was really involved on like, every aspect of the production. So it has a really special place in my heart. But it's gonna be directed and adapted by Charlotte Moore. And I'm really excited, it's gonna be more of a costume-coordinated piece. But we're in talks with the actual theatre to just, you know... eventually we will get in touch with the lady who's going to be coordinating. But she's going to talk a little bit more eventually about some of the the work that she had to do on a zoom production versus what we would typically do on a live production.

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah.

Jojo  

So if you get the chance to see it, it's completely free. They do try to ask for donations if you have the capability to give donations. But it is the... irishrep.org is their website, just look for "Meet Me in St. Louis." And you'll be able to get free tickets, and you just have to reserve your spot. They do have only a few remaining performances. So it's... January 31st is their most current upcoming one. And then they are also performing on February 3rd, the 11th and the 21st. So if you get the chance, please go and see that performance if you can, so hopefully you can kind of be involved with us. And that way when we go over the show in the episode, then you'll know what we're talking about.

Yeah, we're gonna have pictures, and the reason we got in touch with the theater is to see if they could send us some of their pictures. Because we were worried about whether we could take screencaps of the show, and if that would even interrupt our own enjoyment of watching it. Because it's not something that we can rewatch, I looked and it was like, you have to catch it. It's on YouTube Live, so you have to catch it at the exact time or you're gonna miss it. So...

Yeah.

Sarah  

...they were super nice and...

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

...seemed excited that we were featuring them, which is so sweet.

Jojo  

I know.

Sarah  

And we're hoping that the designer can answer a few questions before the episode, but if not, we definitely want to have her on for a future interview episode.

Jojo  

Yeah, definitely. What a great way to connect theater artists in this way, too.

Sarah  

Yeah. And I mean, I miss theater so much that I'm excited to talk about theater with people. So...

Jojo  

Yeah!

Sarah  

...that prospect is very exciting to me.

Jojo  

Very cool. So anyways, that's my little plug for next month. So hopefully, for our audience listeners out there, just be prepared to hear about "Meet Me in St. Louis."

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And hopefully go and see it online.

Sarah  

Mine is much easier to access. I'm going to be covering "Hamilton." So I think a lot of people have seen it on Disney+, so just... you know, gird your loins. Prepare yourself. [both laugh]

Jojo  

It's going to be an exciting episode.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So yeah, back to "Bridgerton." Just to give you a little bit of background about the show, for those of you who have not seen this yet, I wanted to kind of talk a little bit about the directors. Which, in this case, there were actually four different directors. So each of the directors took two different episodes each. We have Sheree Folkson, who has done the very obscure movie "The Decoy Bride," but it's got David Tennant in it. So any of you "Doctor Who" fans out there, she did that movie, which is great. Alrick Riley, who's done a lot of random episodes here and there for "NCIS," "How to Get Away with Murder," "The Good Doctor," "Lucifer." Julie Anne Robinson, who has also done kind of sporadic episodes on "Like Magic," "One for the Money," and "Brooklyn Nine-Nine." And then Tom Verica, who actually does a lot of acting, he was a main actor in "How to Get Away with Murder" and "The Closer," and then he's directed a few episodes of "The Umbrella Academy," "Scandal," and "Private Practice." So these are all directors, obviously, that come with a little bit of experience. The other thing I wanted to mention too is that for the costume team for this show, it was a four person co-costume team. But it was pretty much headed by Ellen Mirojnick, who of course is known for work in "The Greatest Showman," and the newer Maleficent sequel. Victoria Quelch is one of the other costume designers, or co-costume designers. She's probably the most brand new costume designer. She doesn't have other projects under her belt, but this was a great way for her to get involved with a really star team.

Sarah  

Oh, yeah, this is making a big splash. So this is a good...

Jojo  

Absolutely.

Sarah  

...thing to get your name out there.

Jojo  

For sure. And John Norster, who's done a lot of assistant and associate costume designing, but he also worked on "Maleficent," he did "Aladdin," "Justice League," "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales," and also "Inception."

Sarah  

Ooh.

Jojo  

Among many others. And then John Glaser, who did a lot of TV costume designing, so he's done "Gotham," "Person of Interest," and "Brotherhood," also among many other listings. So just to give you just the sheer volume of these teams, because this show is humongous.

Sarah  

Yeah, it makes sense that the team is so big, because, well, they built 7500 costumes. That's what we've learned in our research. And I could tell watching the show, I was like, "They built ALL of this." Like, you can just see it, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

Except for stuff on background and stuff.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. And I think... I can't remember where I wrote it. Oh, here it is. So it took them five months for a team of 238 people to build the 7500 pieces.

Sarah  

Whew!

Jojo  

5000 costumes, full body costumes, were in front of the camera, and 104 costumes were for Daphne Bridgerton alone.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So like, the sheer amout of just volume...

Sarah  

Imagine how many fittings! Like...

Jojo  

It's insane. Like, they must have had to-- like, no one slept for these five months.

Sarah  

That's like a month of fittings.

Jojo  

Pretty much. And like, multiple fittings.

Sarah  

Crazy.

Jojo  

'Cause, you know, even though these these costumes are not-- not all of them are quite as incredibly crazy to build as, you know, say... Queen Charlotte's costume.

Sarah  

Oh yeah.

Jojo  

In the 18th century. But you know, it takes more than one costume fitting for a lot of these. Sometimes you don't get that and you just gotta figure it out. So it's pretty amazing what this costume team has accomplished in this short period of time. Because, you know, five months to some people sounds like a lot of time, but for that many costumes, it's... that's nuts. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah. In my research, she said that she hired five cutters and two tailors just for the principles, which-- I'm not sure who counts as a principal in that case, but like... that's... that already seems like not enough people for that many costumes. [laughs]

Jojo  

I was gonna say, that team sounds so ridiculously small. For the amount of cost-- like, for 104 costumes for one of the leads alone? [laughs]

Sarah  

I know! Oh, it's just-- it's a real big-- like, it's hard to even wrap my mind around how big of an undertaking this show was.

Jojo  

Yes, yeah. So just to kind of introduce that before we really start talking about the costumes. Yeah, it's just, it's pretty insane. We did want to go over some of the designer's thoughts on this, because I think one of the biggest things that we've been hearing from a lot of other critics about the costumes is, of course, the historical accuracy.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

And there is nothing historically accurate about this show.

Sarah  

Well, the silhouette.

Jojo  

I shouldn't say... yes, I shouldn't say "nothing." [both laugh] I did want to read a really quick quote from one of the interviews with Ellen. She said her color palette was shifted, and this is paraphrasing, of course. But rather than doing the 1815, or 1811 to 1820, which is really the time period of the Regency era that we're in, she chose to be inspired by the more 1950s and 1960s silhouettes. And then she said one of the big inspirations was the "Christian Dior: Designer of Dreams" exhibition. And then she also had very specific restrictions and rules on set. So she banned muslin dresses, which, as you know from our last episode on "Emma," muslin dresses were very common for this time period. She totally did away with that because she felt that they were too limp. So a lot of the choices in fabric that she made for this show were definitely much more structured and not quite as light and... cottony, I guess, in feeling as as the typical muslin. And then she also got rid of bonnets.

Sarah  

Yes. Yeah, that's a that's a pretty big deal.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So you said that she she did 50s and 60s silhouettes? Because in the research I saw, she said she used the color-- that was the color inspiration.

Jojo  

The colors. Yeah.

Sarah  

Okay. Yeah

Sorry, colors, not the silhouettes. I have a quote here about the fabric. She said that silk and fancy stuff wasn't being imported from France like it usually was because of the war, which is why people were using cottons more often.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So it is very interesting to see Regency done in fabrics that aren't muslin, and you know, gauzy cottons and stuff, because that's what we're so used to. And I found it really refreshing. I think it's really vibrant and fresh.

Jojo  

Yeah. And I think a couple of her interviews talked a lot about her wanting the costumes to be really "accessible," was the word that she used. And, you know, "accessible" means different things to different people. But I think where she really saw that the most was with Lady Danbury, and Simon in particular. And we will be talking briefly about those.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And of course, we're only really giving you a snippet, because, of course, this is our bonus episode.

Sarah  

Yeah, yeah.

Jojo  

We don't have the time to go through every episode of "Bridgerton." Because there's so many costumes!

Sarah  

That could be a whole season of podcast episodes, is like, every episode.

Jojo  

Oh, yeah. For sure.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Breaking it down.

Sarah  

We're not doing that. [laughs]

Jojo  

So yeah, so we will talk a little bit more about what that accessibility really looks like visually. But yeah, it was just really interesting that she said that. And then the other thing I wanted to mention to you was just the fact that she really kept Queen Charlotte very accurate to the true Queen Charlotte, who decided to stay in the late 18th century silhouette. So apparently, the real Queen Charlotte did that in real life. And she wanted to honor that same idea by putting the queen and her court in all of these 18th century gowns, even though the rest of the lead cast is is mostly in kind of more Regency era, pushed about 20 years later.

Sarah  

I was wondering about that, because like, in my research for "Emma," I was talking about how people didn't want to be associated with the French aristocracy because of the revolution. And then I saw Queen Charlotte dressed in a Marie Antoinette silhouette. And I was like, "What?" [both laugh]

Jojo  

"What's happening?" [laughs] I think I had that same thought initially. So it's cool to hear what Ellen's thought process was behind that.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. Yeah. And I mean, her costumes were like, incredible. Obviously. All of them are incredible. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah, yeah. And I will say the other thing, and we've talked a lot about how much costumes can really affect different things when we change and shift color. And I think this show was a lot more about the color and the vibrancy than it was about historical period accuracy.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

Which, again, going back to that whole 1950s-60s color palette, that's exactly what she's done. She's really taken that and applied it over a period, you know, costume silhouette, and made it sort of more contemporary. Because that is kind of the trend we're returning to a little bit today, is we still see the 1950s and 60s as a very classic color and silhouette. So I think she did a really good job of marrying kind of a more contemporary style and emotion with that period, without making it seem too dated.

Sarah  

Definitely. I have a quote from her about sort of accessibility. She said, "The Shondaland aesthetic"--and "Shondaland" is referring to Shonda Rhimes, who's like the exec producer, right?

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

"...usually errs on aspiration, beauty and lusciousness in a way that makes the modern audience want to be in the story." So I think that's what the accessibility is. It's like, if you see a beautiful Regency gown, people like us will be like, "Oh, my gosh, I want it." But like, an average person might not feel that way. But when you bring it into 2020 with your fabrications and your colors, it makes people go, "Oh my gosh, I want to go there, I want to put on that dress, it's so pretty." You know?

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

So that's-- it makes the audience... it draws them in, in a way that strict period accuracy sometimes doesn't.

Jojo  

Mmhmm. And it's interesting too because, you know, we-- again, we're talking about color vibrancy, but I think about color psychology so much. And this-- the colors that she's chosen, and the textures that she's chosen to use, it kind of has that same feel as, you know... I mean, this is from a while ago, but that sweater that we talked about for Chris Evans, you know. It's things like that, where she's able to take the subtleties of the texture and color. And that's what draws the audience in.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Like, for some reason, I always think about this quote that like, you know, the McDonald's arch, the red and the yellow actually makes us salivate. And that's why people get drawn into McDonald's. And it's like, kind of the same thing, this vibrant color makes us sort of salivate over these costumes.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And kind of get drawn in and get sucked into this world. So I think she's done a really good job of that. And I did want to at least point that out, despite the kind of all-over-the-place historical silhouette accuracy. Like, I think outside of that she's done a really great job.

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah, we were talking about this before we got on mic, but a lot of the people who are talking about the costumes in the show make the whole discussion about the lack of period accuracy. And I think that kind of misses the point. Because the designer has straight up said that that's not what they were going for, so to act like you're sticking it to her by telling her that it's not accurate is just kind of beside the point. Like you're...

Jojo  

Right. Right. You've kind of missed the mark already.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

She straight up told us that that's not the point. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah, it's like, "Yeah, we know that." Like, let's talk about it in words that aren't those things, you know?

Jojo  

Yeah, that's not the language we're following here.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So. So yes! I think we wanted to focus on, obviously, a very specific scene. And this is sort of later in the season. So it's not really a spoiler scene, but it is something that we felt like was a good representation of kind of one of the more party scenes, I guess.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And we both focused on a female look, as well as a male look. And again, this is pretty casual. So we're not going as in depth as our normal episodes.

Sarah  

Yep.

Jojo  

But Sarah, why don't you start with your looks?

Sarah  

So yeah, we picked a specific episode. And we were talking about like, should it be the first episode? And then we were like, "We need people to know that we watched more of it than just the first episode." [both laugh] So we picked episode seven, because it has a scene that we both really like, which is the scene where Daphne goes to the married ladies' gambling night.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

So I'm going to talk about Daphne's dress that she wears there. Because I think it's a fabulous example of everything we've been talking about. Specifically color wise, the Bridgerton family are all in these cool powdery blues, and Daphne really stays in that land for pretty much all of the show. So this dress is a satin, and I just really loved the... it's like a powdery blue satin, and I love the-- where's my...? There it goes. I love that surface decoration on it. And... what's her name? Mirojnick? Is that how you say it? [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yeah. Ellen.

Sarah  

Ellen! Ellen did a lot of hand beading.

Jojo  

Oh my gosh.

Sarah  

So I think that this one might be an example of that. Because it has these beautiful iridescent Aurora Borealis sort of crystal beads on it.

Jojo  

Guys, this is one out of 104 costumes...

Sarah  

One hundred and foooour.

Jojo  

...made for this actress. And this was hand beaded! So crazy.

Sarah  

I think it's a great-- this is a great example of what we were just talking about, where she did the period silhouette, but out of modern fabrics. And I actually have a picture of her in a fitting, from one of the articles, right here. Isn't that fun.

Jojo  

Ooh! That's great.

Sarah  

Yeah. I feel like with 104 looks, that many fittings, the actress just kind of feels like a mannequin at that point. [laughs]

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

I got a picture of the back too. It has a nice long train. I noticed a lot of trains in the show.

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

And I was like, "Is that a thing that they did?" And I think it is, if you're just kind of around the house, or if you're going to a fancy occasion, you'd have a train.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

Yeah, I really like this. Her hair is down, which is like... meh. You know. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Very natural, very contemporary.

Sarah  

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about corsets, actually. I know this is not a picture of her in her corset. But I feel like it's a good time to sort of plug in this discussion that we want to have. And one of the first-- I think it's in the first episode, there's a scene of someone getting tight laced into a corset.

Jojo  

I think that's the opening scene.

Sarah  

Yeah, you might be right.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And I... this is where I'm gonna get a little spicy. [both laugh] I have a problem with, like, how corsets are portrayed in media. Because people nowadays think of them as this torture device, where everybody was squishing their organs and women couldn't breathe. And some people were doing that. It depends on the period, actually, like some of the ideal silhouettes had a tiny, tiny waist and some didn't. But to the women of the time, it was like wearing a bra. And most of them were not squeezing the daylights out of their own bodies. And it's not like a strictly unhealthy thing, to wear a corset. So...

Jojo  

Especially for this time period.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

I think that was one of the loudest things that I heard, was that that whole lacing situation would not have been appropriate for this time period.

Sarah  

Yeah!

Jojo  

Because, again, you're cinching in the waist in that image. And really, the silhouette at this time was not about the cinched-in waist.

Sarah  

Correct.

Jojo  

It was very much up at the empire, so...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...so that whole scene seems a little bit kind of illogical or irrational. Considering the dresses they're wearing.

Sarah  

It just contributes to the weird reputation that corsets have.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

And I think it's a little bit lazy, because every period film has one of those scenes now. And it's like, show us something else.

Jojo  

Yeah. Do something different with that. [laughs]

Sarah  

Yeah. And then the other thing is the lack of chemise, which-- for those who don't know, a chemise is kind of is an underlayer that goes under your corset. It would-- it's kind of like a little nightgown-looking dress--slip--sort of thing, usually made of cotton, you know, really breathable and comfy. And it's to prevent your corset from, you know, rubbing or irritating you.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And this show also shows... I can't remember what character it is. But someone is taking off their corset and has like, full like bruises or blisters from it? And I was like, "Give me a break!" Like...

Jojo  

That's not accurate.

Sarah  

Where's your chemise?! [laughs]

Jojo  

Right. And if you think about it, the chemise kind of acted like, you know... I guess our modern equivalent would be like the men's undershirt, right?

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

It's sort of that inner layer of-- you have something underneath the outer clothes, because that's the layer that would also be your sweat layer, essentially.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And that's what would be getting dirty and get rewashed over and over again.

Sarah  

Correct.

Jojo  

And then they wouldn't have to wash the outer layer as often.

Sarah  

Yep.

Jojo  

So the chemise didn't just function as an inner layer to protect you. It also was a very practical garment.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's like undies, it's your innermost layer. Yeah. So that's... that's our take on that.

Jojo  

That's our spicy level, guys. [both laugh]

Sarah  

That's as spicy as we get. And then I'll move along to Simon. He doesn't go to that gambling party because he's a man.

Jojo  

[laughs]

Sarah  

But I wanted to talk a little bit about his wardrobe broadly. I have a quote. The designer says, "He's traveled the world and has come back to London. So he brings with him another sensibility." And then also his sexiness was a big factor in deciding what he was gonna wear. And I think we can really see that in the fact that he rarely is wearing a stock, or a high collar.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

His throat is pretty much always exposed. So the stock is like the tie... that ties... it's like-- usually it's white for men in this period. And it would wrap several times around their neck and then tie in sort of like a bow at the front. And he, if he's wearing anything, he wears sort of like a loosely knotted cravat, which you can see in this picture of him in the gray velvet outfit. And he, like-- I think there's a real sexiness to the fact that his throat is always exposed. I mean, he's beautiful to look at, so... [laughs]

Jojo  

Yep.

Sarah  

...and then I love the, you know, luxe-ness of the fabrics here. I love gray. And-- but he also, as sort of like a visual foil to Daphne, is usually wearing something warm toned to contrast with her cool tones. So he's usually wearing burgundy, or butterscotch-caramel colors. And in this one, he has a red little cravat thing. And I think that that's really effective because he's like, sensual, you know, and worldly. [laughs]

Jojo  

It's very much a passion color.

Sarah  

Yes, exactly. Yeah. So that's Simon. Did I...? Oh, I think I have one of him... there. This one is him in his shirtsleeves and a different vest. And it's like a brocade, sort of paisley pattern.

Jojo  

Mmhmm.

Sarah  

And it's-- once again, it's like his necktie is open and he's looking very-- sort of half undressed. But like, very luxurious, because the neckties are silky, and then the waistcoat is very rich looking too. So it's just like, you can see sort of the worldliness and also like, the money, and the sexiness, all in his outfits.

Jojo  

Yay!

Sarah  

I think that's all I have to talk about.

Jojo  

Nice and brief.

Sarah  

[laughs] Yeah. We're just, you know, breezing through it.

Jojo  

Yeah.

Sarah  

We don't want to be here forever.

Jojo  

And again, there's so many characters in the show that it's not possible for us to cover every single one of them with the time we have. But yeah, we did want to touch a little bit on some of the, you know, main leads. So I love that you focused on our two-- you know, there really are our two leads in this story.

Sarah  

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Do you want to tell us what you pulled?

Jojo  

Yeah! Okay, so let me share my screen. So I focused on some kind of more peripheral characters. But I love that the characters I actually focused on are basically like the support system for Sarah's two characters.

Sarah  

Mmhmm. [laughs]

Jojo  

Anthony Bridgerton is the brother, the older brother, of Daphne, who... he's kind of taken over the family now because the father's just not in the picture. And so he's kind of had to take on a lot of that burden. And then of course, Lady Danbury is the one that I did want to focus on first, and Lady Danbury in the same way is kind of the the familial support, who kind of raises Simon.

Sarah  

I love her.

Jojo  

Me too.

Sarah  

I wanted more of her.

Jojo  

I just... I love her character, and I just wish that they had incorporated her more. She just-- she's like, a no-nonsense character. Everything about her is very... I wouldn't even say "masculine" because she's very, very feminine the way she dresses, but just the way she carries herself is very masculine in a lot of ways. And so the dress that I focused on at this gambling party... she appears in, of course, that deep maroon that's very reminiscent of Simon as well.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

And so I think Ellen did a really good job of really tying these families together by color.

Sarah  

Yes.

Jojo  

And that's really how she's separated each of the different worlds, and you really see the difference in class and status as well. So for Lady Danbury... let's see, I think the other picture is... yes, this is it.

Sarah  

Oh, I love.

Jojo  

And you never really see a full body picture of this, because this is film, but I love that this really does honor the Regency. One of the things that I really took into account was that they-- she's the only one at this party in full long sleeves. There's one other lady that I think is slightly older, and even she only had a quarter, like a three quarter sleeve. But Lady Danbury, as the host of this party, is the only one with the full kind of longer... and again, there's something very masculine about the sleeve that they've given her. And they've even kind of... what did I write? That they have a flared cuff on her sleeve, which you can't really see that well in this picture, but it's, you know, it's right at her wrist. And it's also actually even a little bit longer than her wrist, which I'm not really sure if that was like... what the intention of that was. It almost makes it look like it's too big for her? But there's something kind of masculine about the shoulder width that they've given her in this particular look. And then the fact that they've given her this really structured kind of pleated area that kind of like frames her bust. So again, this kind of very masculine, almost spencer jacket looking garment, or pelisse garment that we talked about from "Emma." That's worn over this really beautiful--same thing as Simon--that velvet kind of luxurious fabric for the dress underneath. One of the things that I did want to point out with her... it's interesting because even her hairstyle, it's sort of like a halfway between the Marie Antoinette kind of piled-up look...

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

...and the more natural look of Daphne and the more contemporary kind of Regency styling that they've chosen to give to this world. So she's-- it's interesting to me that she isn't quite the royalty character, but she's almost like the one step down from Queen Charlotte.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So there's kind of different hierarchies of who all these people are and what status they belong to, and what wealth bracket they belong to. So I wanted to focus on that. She again is also in those really warm kind of passionate colors, because I do also see her character as very passionate. So I really loved that. And I think they did a really good job of tying her in with Simon very well.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And even though they're not in the scene together in this particular frame, you can definitely see the association between the two of them.

Sarah  

I want to say about that sleeve, I've seen that extended sort of cuff--that like sort of hits the knuckles--I've seen that happening. That's like a now thing, I think that they have added because I've seen it in like some high fashion menswear where like, it'll be like a blazer, like a tailored jacket, but then the cuff flares out at the bottom and like...

Jojo  

Right, right,

Sarah  

...goes past where it usually does.

Jojo  

It's like, intentionally longer.

Sarah  

Yeah. So that's a fun contemporary little touch.

Jojo  

Yeah. So this was a really good marrying of like, contemporary and, you know, that period.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

What else did I write on here? Oh! Well, I mentioned the kind of wider, more masculine shoulders. I think one thing that was really interesting was I was thinking a little bit more about Joan Crawford from the kind of late 1940s. And sort of that same idea of like, the really broad shoulders on a very feminine silhouette. And I think that was some of what I was getting... I don't know if that was what Ellen intended. But that was sort of the same feeling I was getting from this, especially knowing that she kind of was utilizing 1950s and 1960s colors. And that she-- I think there was something in one of the interviews that mentioned her looking at the new Dior look of the 1947 era.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

So just sort of bringing in even some small subtle details of that silhouette. You can definitely see that in this costume.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

And then to focus on Anthony... and like, you know, we've talked in the past about how interesting menswear is, in comparison to womenswear. And it's usually not... there's not... I don't want to say that it's not interesting, but there's not as much to talk about, I feel like.

Sarah  

Yeah, it's still pants and shirts and jackets. [laughs]

Jojo  

And I can't really say that, but even in this particular scene, you know, Anthony actually does feature a pretty standard tuxedo from that era, the Regency tuxedo, and it is a cutaway coat. One of the things that I do love about this is that in comparison to the luxurious velvets of Simon, he's certainly in more of a traditional kind of almost... it looks like wool.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

I don't know if that's exactly what the material was. But just based on the images that we're seeing here. You know, it's a pretty traditional black and white, that's pretty standard for tuxedos of that time. And like, you know, they would have dressed really nice. And I think Anthony's family is still at a level of wealthiness that he can afford, you know, nicer fabrics. Not that they're not all wearing really nice fabric, but just sort of styled in different ways. He really does have his neck mostly covered for a majority of the time. And I don't think that has anything to do with not wanting him to be sexy, because he certainly sleeps around...

Sarah  

Right.

Jojo  

...quite a bit in the show as well. [laughs] But there's this sense of, he constantly needs to look put together. And there's this uptightness about his character because he basically has the entire family's reputation on his shoulders.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

So they've really kept him--his neck--really wrapped up in the scene. And again, kind of going back to that separating of him versus Simon in this scene. I think it's a really good juxtaposition of the two of them across from each other. Because he's so well done up with his stock and his ascot in place. Versus Simon, who I think in this scene, he's got nothing around his neck. So it's essentially just kind of open, and it's almost like a modern sensibility. When we think about the unbuttoned shirt, right...

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

...that's a more casual look for men, when they leave their chest open.

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Versus when they have a fully done up button at the neck. So they definitely did that to separate these two men in general. I also love the shape of this vest, it is very Regency, and I think that's been obviously-- I think-- let me go back. [laughs] But I was gonna say, I really love that Ellen stuck to more of the traditional Regency silhouette for this, because I think this definitely looks much more Regency and much more close to the historical silhouette of that time for men especially.

Sarah  

Yeah, he looks so traditional too, and that makes sense with his character because he cares so much about the standing of his family, and their reputation, and adhering to tradition. So him wearing a more period accurate Regency thing makes sense, especially next to Simon, who is more modern and doesn't really care about that kind of thing, even though... I mean, he cares about his family, but not in the way of reputation or like...

Jojo  

Yes, definitely.

Sarah  

...tradition, or whatever.

Jojo  

It's very different priorities.

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

For sure. And then-- again, this is such a small detail, but the fact that he's got so many of those gold buttons, again, it's kind of a show of wealth. If you actually look at a lot of the fashion plates from this time period, his jacket is much more open than the ones that you typically see in that time period. Which... I don't know if it was just the designer being like, "Let's feature that thing." [both laugh]

Sarah  

Mmhmm.

Jojo  

Like, "We worked so many hours on this costume, let's do it." And you can't necessarily-- you don't necessarily see the color in this one. But there were a couple interviews I was looking at where you do get to see a lot more color for the menswear. And it is mostly like dark blues and navies, but they're very rich blues, that you see in other episodes of this season. This particular look is a little closer to the traditional black, but I do love that Ellen has thrown in some of those other deeper colors for menswear, and didn't just keep it all black tuxedos all the time.

Sarah  

Yeah. I like the blue that he wears. But I will say that I did not realize that all three of the white men were Daphne's brothers until several episodes in, because they're virtually indistinguishable from each other. And they all wear the same color. So I thought that some of them were the same person. I didn't realize there were three of them. Like... [both laugh]

Jojo  

So funny. Yeah. And I feel like they're kind of carbon copies of each other. I don't think there was as much of a distinctiveness between the three brothers.

Sarah  

Yeah. Toward the end, they develop more of their own personalities, but not at the beginning. At the beginning. I was like, "Wait, who's this one? Didn't we just see him?" [both laugh]

Jojo  

"Wait, they're NOT the same person?"

Sarah  

Yeah.

Jojo  

Yeah. So I think, overall, you know, obviously, this show was definitely one of those shows that you kind of get sucked in very fast. So that's why we wanted to cover it. But I think, you know, rather than looking at all the historical anachronisms that are in this... because, again, that is not the point of these costumes. I think just being able to enjoy how contemporary this is, and how Shonda has brought in a lot of the kind of diverse cast and the diverse... even the diverse culture that she's created in this world, I think is definitely the bigger point that we want to focus on for this show.

Sarah  

Yeah, I think it's a beautiful sort of like fantasy, you know? Because these-- it's based on books, and they're basically fantasy, bodice-ripper romances, and you want to be able to escape into that world. And I really like that the world she's created for us to escape into is so colorful, so diverse, so different and unique. And when's the last time a period drama like this made such a splash? I can't remember...

Jojo  

Yeah, it's very true.

Sarah  

...one getting this popular recently, so clearly, they have a winning formula happening.

Jojo  

For sure.

Sarah  

They're doing something right.

Jojo  

And they have eight more seasons left of this! So...

Sarah  

There's lots of books right?

Jojo  

There's gonna be plenty of material to cover.

Sarah  

Yeah, I like how it's sort of like a Regency era "Gossip Girl," basically. [laughs]

Jojo  

Yeah, I literally... when I started watching this, I was gonna ask my husband to watch with me and he was like, "Wait, so this is just 'Gossip Girl,' but set in the Regency era?" He was like, so disinterested. [both laugh] I was like, "Okay, you don't have to watch with me, fine."

Sarah  

Oh, man.

Jojo  

But yes, very much a "Gossip Girl" vibe.

Sarah  

Yes, yes. I mean, shout out to, like-- I have a couple of straight male friends who were really into it. So shout out to them, I hope they listen. Because they asked me if I was gonna cover it. So you better listen.

Jojo  

Yep, here it is! And that does conclude our episode, our little bonus episode of this. We're at 40 minutes!

Sarah  

Pretty good!

Jojo  

We tried to keep this short...

Sarah  

I'll trim some out.

Jojo  

...but pretty good.

Sarah  

And then it'll be like 35 or so. [both laugh]

Jojo  

Yes, exactly. So hopefully you've enjoyed our very brief coverage of "Bridgerton." It's a fun show to watch. It's easy to get sucked into, there's a lot that happens and now there's eight more seasons that are, you know, projected after this. So looking forward to that and more of Shondaland. So hopefully...

Sarah  

Yeah, it's a nice little escape from the real world for a while.

Jojo  

Definitely.

Sarah  

Watch pretty people fall in love. What could go wrong? [both laugh]

Jojo  

Exactly. In the Regency era.

Sarah  

Yeah. Beautiful.

Jojo  

Perfect. Well, thanks, Sarah!

Sarah  

Thanks, JoJo!

Jojo  

This was fun! And look forward to our musical theatre episode coming in next month.

Sarah  

Yep. Look forward to that.

Jojo  

Perfect.

Sarah  

And watch "Meet Me in St. Louis."

Jojo  

Yes.

Sarah  

Okay.

Jojo  

Thanks, guys.

Sarah  

Thank you!

Jojo  

We'll see you next time.

Sarah  

Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo:

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at thecostumeplot@gmail.com.

Sarah:

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.