thelogicofikeandsoren
thelogicofikeandsoren
The Logic of Ike and Soren
721 posts
Don't wanna be here? Send us removal request.
thelogicofikeandsoren · 12 days ago
Text
Here's my hot(?) take: Ike is a better power fantasy than the avatar characters, especially if you are noticeably different from your peer group, but NOT because you are richer or more popular.
6 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 16 days ago
Text
So let's recap:
Soren was abandoned, abused, sold to be abused more, left alone when his only guardian died with little to no communication ability, left for dead, separated from Ike, the one person who showed him kindness, for several years, witness to the aftermath of a bloody massacre, ostracized by passersby, reunited with Ike only to learn he didn't remember him at all, thrust into the forefront of two bloody wars where Ike was orphaned, almost murdered for speaking out of turn, convinced he will lose Ike forever due to his heritage, blackmailed into silence because of that same heritage... And these are just the things that always happened that he knows about!
We can also potentially add others depending on the situation:
If no RD A support, he could eventually have been left behind by Ike
He could have been wounded to the point he could never fight again
He could have seen Ike die and been unable to stop it
Assuming they spend the rest of their lives together AND live their natural lifespan, he would eventually see Ike grow old and die without him
Bonuses that he doesn't know and may never know:
Watched two of his own relatives die, possibly helped kill them, one of whom probably would have liked him IF he gave him a chance (big if, sadly)
Will never know the good relationships he could have had with one uncle and his grandfather
May never know the good relationships he could have had with his other uncle and mother
And honestly? Given this? It's a miracle that Soren is just highly neurotic, tactless, and prejudiced instead of evil, insane, or dead, let alone how much Ike has helped him get better between games and (hopefully) beyond.
20 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 1 month ago
Note
I do think the "Ike has two hands argument" has more to do with most of us being old enough to have seen the worst of the ship wars of ye olde days and are too damn old to have any interest in engaging in one. As lined out in your post it's pretty obvious Soren is the primary romantic choice for Ike and I could go to bat about it....but I'm tired.
I understand the sentiment, though there is a difference between a shipping "multi-verse" (which still wouldn't require a shipping war) and trying to reconcile multiple 'ships happening simultaneously in the same universe.
2 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 1 month ago
Note
Maybe I'm just irritated with any conversation I enter about RD endings getting shut down with "Ike has two hands!!!" instead of actually discussing the story and characters, but I genuinely don't understand Ike and Ranulf romantically or why it should be treated with the same level of canonicity as Ike and Soren. I went back and did two story playthroughs of both Tellius games this month and still don't see it. I really like your analysis on Ike and Soren, so what's your take on Ike and Ranulf?
My take is that it has the second-most support for it out of all Ike's potential partners BUT that the distance between first and second is orders of magnitude larger than the distance between second and third (Elincia probably, with Lethe and Reyson tied for fourth, not counting one-sided Aimee), if we discount the very existence of the support ending.
In the text of the endings, you can see proof that Ike and Soren leave together, whereas with Ranulf it's only implied because of the fact it changes with the support, and Ranulf's reason for leaving with Ike is significantly less personal than Soren's.
As far as textual evidence outside of the endings that Ike and Ranulf would be more than friends, there isn't much; mostly just evidence of them being good friends and lack of counterevidence (what besides the ending puts Ranulf above Elincia). Maybe when he ran up to defend Ranulf from the Toha villagers, but even then that's more or less on the level with what he does for Elincia, with whom he does not have an ending. And well, I definitely don't have time to go over all the textual Ike/Soren evidence right now, but you are familiar already.
Ike and Ranulf are very good friends and have a lot in common, similar to Ike and Soren, although Soren and Ranulf are foils to each other, so it makes sense that Ike would be interested in both. However, what I find hard to reconcile is Ike leaving Soren for Ranulf (even if they weren't officially "together" prior to the end of RD, they were still very entwined in each other's lives), as well as the compromise where they all end up together. I can absolutely see Ranulf suggesting the latter, but I doubt Ike would be poly and even more that Soren would be willing to allow that to happen. He MAY submit under pressure, but Ike would NEVER pressure Soren to do something like that. I can see Ike ending up with Ranulf sometime in the future if Soren dies in battle (which would have to be in RD endgame or between the endgame and where are they now epilogue).
2 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 2 months ago
Text
Thinking about ikesoren, as one does, and how it’s pretty inarguable even from antis that Soren is really really helplessly devoted and probably in love even if you don’t ship them or think it’s canon, so then they default to Ike being the one who doesn’t care as much or reciprocate any kind of affectionate feeling
and then playing the beginning of Path of Radiance it’s like. Ike repeatedly saying that he relies on Soren so much, he needs him there with him (even before Greil’s death), please don’t leave me, etc. …. Mist running to tell Ike that Soren came home without her knowing why but clearly the priority is telling Ike about it, Greil having to yell at them for stopping to talk to each other when they’re supposed to be talking as a group about the war that just broke out. The fight with Mordecai and Lethe where they’re both jumping in front of the other to protect them
Like it’s so clear he’s also super attached despite being surrounded by friends and family so it isn’t a trauma bonding “I have no one else” thing, he just really likes this mean little guy who showed up one day stray cat style
59 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 2 months ago
Text
I can't believe I forgot to mention Pelleas!
Saw an ask saying the fandom paints Soren's relationship with Ike as the only one that matters and that Soren deserves better than just being "the Ike guy".
I guarantee the fandom is much more interested in his potential relationships with the other Greil Mercenaries, Ashnard, the Goldoan royal family, other Branded characters, Skrimir, and even Ranulf than Soren himself ever is (ignorance of his heritage notwithstanding).
Meanwhile, Soren canonically states repeatedly that his relationship with Ike is the only one that matters and so do both of his RD endings (yes, even the one where he doesn't follow Ike, sadly.)
17 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 2 months ago
Text
The character people think fills the niche of "unrequited obsessive admirer of the lord": Soren
The character who actually fills the niche of "unrequited obsessive admirer of the lord": Aimee
I don't know if they just don't think Aimee can count because she's not playable, but I don't know how you could miss the whole "Ike and Soren have a proto-S support and a paired ending" thing
Now, you could make the argument that some characters like Tharja fit the mold more-or-less despite having those, but the difference is avatar characters have tons of support ending options. Non-customizable lords tend to have significantly fewer, and Ike in particular has two. And only one of them has a proto-S support or even explicitly states they are together in the ending--the one with Soren.
13 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 2 months ago
Text
Reasons to believe Soren likes girls:
He flirts with Aimee specifically so that Ike won't and to get a discount. Because this happens in Radiant Dawn, it is harder to read his facial expressions as he does so than it would be in Path of Radiance, and of course there is no voice acting, so this could be anywhere from "actually believable if you don't know Soren personally" to "said in the most bored/irritated tone ever and Aimee still swoons over it because she's just that desperate".
Reasons to believe Soren doesn't like girls:
Surprisingly, there was no direct counterevidence until Engage (as far as I remember):
Refuses to play Hortensia and Goldmary's flirty games (that said, he does the same with Rosado)
The ironic thing is, from the narrative choices they did make, it seems likely they already thought Soren not liking girls was obvious. I'm talking about two of the main characters who show an interest in Soren outside of Ike, Stefan and Skrimir, both being traditionally attractive masculine men, and Soren rejecting them specifically in favor of Ike. The only other characters who are that interested in learning more about Soren are related to him (or accidentally replaced him in the family), except for Micaiah, who is both in a committed relationship and pretty much only interacts with him as an enemy.
In other words, in order to make Soren's' solitary devotion to Ike clear, they don't need to show he isn't interested in women, but do need to show he isn't interested in other handsome men. Consider the inverse situations with Geoffrey (only interested in Elincia, not Calill) and Zihark (only interested in his lost love, not Ilyana or Meg).
It also helps that most women (except for Aimee and Hortensia's crew) seem to be able to tell they'd be barking up the wrong tree, ESPECIALLY Micaiah and Timerra.
4 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 2 months ago
Text
Saw an ask saying the fandom paints Soren's relationship with Ike as the only one that matters and that Soren deserves better than just being "the Ike guy".
I guarantee the fandom is much more interested in his potential relationships with the other Greil Mercenaries, Ashnard, the Goldoan royal family, other Branded characters, Skrimir, and even Ranulf than Soren himself ever is (ignorance of his heritage notwithstanding).
Meanwhile, Soren canonically states repeatedly that his relationship with Ike is the only one that matters and so do both of his RD endings (yes, even the one where he doesn't follow Ike, sadly.)
17 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 3 months ago
Text
Tumblr media
i unfortunately wasn’t able to get in-game screenshots of this scene, but ike’s dialogue here at the end of part 2 makes me believe that right after he calls bastian “crimea’s top tactician” he thinks of soren and then automatically changes his mind
47 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 3 months ago
Text
Not even Soren gets away with saying Soren isn't good enough for Ike without being called weird or stupid (unless he's already having a nervous breakdown), so imagine saying that to him when you aren't Soren.
14 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 4 months ago
Text
Reasons to think Ike likes girls
Calls Elincia a "good luck charm", defends her fiercely from the apostle, holds her hand, and is sad if she dies. Shinon and Ranulf make fun of him plausibly being in love with her.
Has in-game dialogue and supports with girls he becomes friendlier with like Elincia and Lethe.
Priam exists and is Ike's descendant. Probably. He and the flavor text say so but there certainly is some non-committal writing.
In Smash Bros, there's one clip where it looks like he's giving a flower to Palutena.
Reasons to think Ike doesn't like girls
Is extremely off-put by Aimee, but to be fair, she is acting like a creep.
Despite becoming friends with Elincia and Lethe and working with Mia for years, he can end up with none of them in the end and explicitly has no desire to pursue any relationship with Elincia even at the end of Path of Radiance.
In fact, he has no support endings with women at all, though he does only have two total.
He was so disinterested in the temple handmaidens, he just walked away without a word. He prefers the pretty flowers he ignores to do his job, which he prioritizes over absolutely everything except Soren's happiness. To be fair, Ike only prioritized making Soren happy over doing his job twice... Oh wait, it was three times but the second was unsuccessful because it was quickly interrupted.
Aimee is convinced if she didn't tell Ike she liked him, he wouldn't know. He tells her he wouldn't do anything about it even if he did know, which can be extrapolated to explain his non-reactions to Elincia and Marcia's potential flirting.
Aimee hypothesizes that Ike isn't interested in settling down yet, and Ike seems to believe she is wrong... He says she is delusional a few lines later, but to be fair, that was after she suggested she may have a chance with him in the future.
Calill, Goldmary, and arguably Hortensia try to get him to acknowledge their attractiveness. It doesn't work.
The art book explicitly states that he doesn't. Only, that's just supplemental material and a different translation of the same phrase could also mean that he doesn't notice their affections (see point 5).
These were the ones I could think of. If there are any others from Heroes, Engage, 3DS DLC, or other supplemental material (or even on the Tellius games that I forgot about), let me know!
Decide for yourself which is more likely!
Bonus:
Reasons to think Ike likes boys:
I can't list them all right now there's too many
Reasons to think Ike doesn't like boys:
6 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 4 months ago
Text
Someone made a great point for Team "Priam is not a direct descendent of Ike" that I had yet to consider:
Ike hates the spotlight. It would be extremely unlikely that he would brag about his exploits or make his lineage known in such a way.
On the other hand, his sister (or more likely, his brother-in-law) or opportunistic liars would be much more likely to bring those things up in a way where Priam would want to live up to the legacy.
12 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 4 months ago
Text
When did Soren realize he loved Ike?
I believe with near certainty that Soren did fall in love with Ike almost immediately. However, there is an argument that he might not have realized he did right away, so what are some moments he may have noticed?
There are a few moments that make sense to me:
Before the game even started, during the backstory. This is a very plausible option, considering he searched for years for a person he met once. He has had a lot of time to ruminate that we just never see.
During the Path of Radiance A Support, specifically after Ike reassures him he's fine the way he is. If Soren didn't know before, there's a very good chance he does now, and not just because of the line they censored in the localization, but also because he cuts himself off and then immediately starts giving Ike even more information about himself that wasn't asked about. This also provides the catalyst for Soren to admit to Ike that he only wants to be with him (at least platonically).
I find it highly unlikely that he doesn't know at least by Radiant Dawn, given his blatant wedding vow A support line, his defensive non-denial to Micaiah's "accusation", and his dramatic response to Ike being about to compliment Aimee. Not to mention the line "my only wish was to see you again" which definitely made Ike realize the depths of his feelings, if he didn't earlier.
What I do believe is that he would have a very hard time believing that Ike loves him back, even after Ike realizes he does, and you can sort of see that in the last scene, where Soren's first assumption is that Ike is only trying to hug him out of pity and not because he loves him. And of course, at least before the Path of Radiance A Support, Soren is convinced that this relationship is more precarious than it is. That might also explain why he doesn't want other people to know about his feelings, or try to advance the relationship at any point on his own*, because that could lead to him losing the relationship he already has, which is still more than he could have hoped for.
*In fact, during one of his bond conversations with Alcryst in Engage, he states "If you expect a refusal, don't ask". Now, granted, Engage was written long after Radiant Dawn, so this may not be entirely accurate, but it does seem consistent with what else we know.
7 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 4 months ago
Text
Slight correction to this: The first example under Layer 1 should actually be under Layer 2 because it is very possible to miss getting Devdan if not also Gatrie, both of whom are required to complete the transitive argument. Regardless, the conclusion is the same.
Layers of Canon
"Is Ikesoren canon" is a much more complicated question than a lot of people will give it credit for, namely because of all of the different layers of canon.
Layer 1: Obvious Canon. These are the things that anyone playing the game could see from standard cutscenes and base conversations including but not limited to:
Ike prioritizes making Soren happy over doing his job (PoR 13), doing his job over looking at flowers (PoR 17), and looking at flowers over looking at women (PoR 14)
Ike finds Aimee off-putting (PoR 13 and 23, RD 3-2 and 4-1)
Soren and Ike worry about each other constantly and protecting each other, including but not limited to Ike placing himself in front of Soren to protect him from a tiger attack (PoR 8) and Soren lashing out when he can't follow Ike to fight the Black Knight (PoR 27) as well as the bond bonus.
Soren knows how to woo Ike (PoR 23)
Ike, in no uncertain terms, does not want to marry Elincia (PoR epilogue and RD)
Micaiah and Yune both refer to Soren as the boy who is always beside Ike (RD 4E)... Confirmed when fighting Ike as an enemy (RD 3-13).
Ike is not (just) oblivious to love (RD 4-1)
Layer 2: Esoteric Canon. These are things that require extra effort to see but are either implied to always happen or have no long term consequences. This includes the entirety of Ike and Soren's PoR support path as well as Soren's battle quotes with Shinon and Micaiah and escape quotes. Here we also add...
Soren being able to recognize tiredness on Ike's face through a small tic Ike doesn't notice and Ike compliments him afterwards (PoR C)
Soren expressing that Ike is the only person he can rely on and Ike assuring him he will always stand by him (PoR A)
"There's only one place for me to be, Ike, and it's by your side" (PoR epilogue, if A supported)
A warm core is melting Soren's freezing heart according to Micaiah (RD 3-7)
Layer 3: Uncertain Canon. These are things that most likely happened according to game preferences, but can be avoided. This would include Ike and Soren's Radiant Dawn supports and paired ending as well as any new game+ exclusive material. Most of the nature of Ike and Soren's relationship is here, including:
"I vow to remain by your side as long as I draw the breath of life" (RD A)
"My only wish was to see you again" (RD 4-E)
The support ending where Soren sets off with Ike and Ike was never seen again
Layer 4: Implicit Canon: Sometimes things that should be obvious are not spelled out, so a lot of the disagreement happens between these two levels. Here are some good examples:
When Micaiah talks about warm feelings, she means romantic ones because both her and Sothe, and Naesala and Leanne, whom she also uses the terms for, explicitly get married. Soren saying "do not presume to understand me" is a dodge, not a denial.
When Ike says Aimee "has issues with reality", that is in direct reference to her theory that he's (just) not ready to settle down.
All of the Aimee, Elincia, and temple handmaiden evidence suggests that Ike, at the very least, does not prefer women.
Because Ike and Soren are emotionally closed-off, them sharing a tender hug (technically also an inference but not a controversial one) says more than it would for the average characters.
Ike and Soren leaving alone together forever heavily suggests a romantic relationship.
Layer 5: Word of God: At this point, canonicity starts becoming more nebulous. This could include anything from side materials such as the art book, which says that "Ike's sense of how dear Soren is to him is renewed" and that "Ike doesn't care for the affections of women." Both are already present in implicit canon. But this makes them explicit, if only outside of the work.
Layer 6: Improbable Canon: These are things that are present in the game, but require you to make choices counter to the best narrative. This will include any of the death quotes, for which all of Soren's and two of Ike's reinforce how much they care about each other. The one-sided reading could potentially fit here as well, as so much of Ike returning Soren's affections requires them to have a paired ending (and special scene if possible), so the two less-encouraged Ike endings (and by extension, one DIScouraged Soren ending) could come across this way.
Layer 7: Soft Canon: Anything that is supported not by PoR and RD or their teams, but is supported by FE crossovers such as Heroes, Engage, and the Awakening DLC. And yes, this does mean that Priam is more nebulously canon than Ike and Soren's support ending. Sorry not sorry.
Layer 8: Non-Canon: Headcanons that do not contradict any official evidence but aren't supported by it either. While some people will have these to connect Ike/Soren to Priam and/or Soren's relatives, to speculate on their future, or to further characterize either, this is NOT necessary to think Ike and Soren are a couple in general. This would also include more general crossovers such as Smash Bros.
Layer 9: Counter to Canon: finally we have this set. These are definitively untrue based on level 1 evidence and the aggregation of levels 2-6, but people will use them for a variety of reasons from trying to relate better to the characters to write a what-if scenario to... My entire "straight Ike arguments" and "straight Soren nonsense" tags.
Conclusion: Ike and Soren having their primary relationship is layer 3 at worst, it being romantic is layer 5 at worst, and being adamantly opposed to it is level 6 at best and 9 at worst.
29 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 4 months ago
Text
Soren criticizing Nel for moving across worlds for a "stranger" as if he didn't do the exact same thing.
...
You know he's thinking "But that's different because it was Ike" without realizing Nel feels similarly about Alear.
6 notes · View notes
thelogicofikeandsoren · 5 months ago
Text
Here's another Ike/Soren headcanon for you all. I'm sure that Ike has discovered Soren was in danger at least once by hearing or feeling a sudden storm. With or without, "Soren, are you okay? I heard a hurricane nearby!"
16 notes · View notes