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[tumblingxelian]

Regardless whether we're reading too much into it or not, the fact it can come off that way is REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE. Like, the fact you can say "this could be a valid interpretation" is just- UGH. Like, you know we keep saying "the only way Lila is like this is if she’s actually an adult" can be a valid read? IT FEELS VERY SIMILAR IN "OH, I HATE I CAN SEE THAT".

I was just writing a followup on it and my thoughts were:

With Andre putting his emotional investment in Chloé and having her essentially replace Audrey who is not often around

And then he realizes he actually hates Audrey and is 'stuck' with her and all of his unhappiness is her fault

I can easily see the jump he's making of how he put Audrey's duty on Chloé and sees her actions as just as much a failure of not his own fault.

And now he has Zoé, who has similarities to Audrey and Chloé ofc, but is nicer and more fawning and would praise him instead of demand things.

[tumblingxelian]

So, for context on that recent ask regarding Andre, here is how we got there: https://www.tumblr.com/tumblingxelian/749018893317783552/one-interesting-thing-regarding-chloes-shift-from & https://www.tumblr.com/generalluxun/749018433350500352/one-interesting-thing-regarding-chloes-shift-from

One can do a more extensive breakdown but this covers the gist of:

Chloe is living her life doing an Audrey impersonation.

Andre is/was low key obsessed with Audrey & encourages Chloe's mimicry in this regard.

Chloe sometimes fawns on Andre or praises him in a way Audrey never would and "Needs" him in a way Audrey doesn't and this again results in fawning from his Audrey proxy daughter.

Which just gives a really creepy undercurrent to their already messed up relationship given its like, sort of one sided pseudo emotional incest.

A friend reacted this way as well:

Off-hand, I feel like granting that it may not be intentional grooming, just Chloe emulating Audrey in a bid for her love, and Andre treating the situation as "like mother, like daughter" where Chloe is useful or… Okay, no, even from that angle, Andre is playing sugar daddy basically. Not the exact same vibes, but closer to aligned than comfortable.

But yeah, uncomfortable t say the least, but I can't like, stop seeing it now that I've acknowledged how off-putting it all is.

On one hand we might be reading a little too much into it as like. Yeah he's just considering this an acceptable way to act and enables this whole thing without purposely trying to make her act like Audrey but slightly better.

On the other hand. I'm kinda reminded of the whole 'Boymom™' thing. Where women aren't getting proper emotional connection with their husbands so they put the investment into their son instead.

[tumblingxelian]

some of my favorite replies to this tweet. happy lesbian visibility week!

[tumblingxelian]

worst relationship status to have w someone is “objectively they’re a fine person who is nice but i don’t enjoy their company as much as they enjoy mine”

[tumblingxelian]

@tumblingxelian MENTIONED HOW ANDRÉ IS USING HIS DAUGHTER'S WIFE IMPERSONATION TO BOOST HIS OWN SELF-ESTEEM, I CAN'T UNSEE IT NOW, IT IS SO FUCKED UP!! ANDRÉ IS ENCOURAGING HIS KID TO ACT LIKE HIS WIFE TO MAKE HIMSELF FEEL BETTER!!! I NEED TO DUNK MY BRAIN IN BLEACH!!! WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK IS THIS SHOW!?!? (xelian, not your fault for bringing it up, the show probably doesn’t even mean for it to be read this way, which. Is actually WORSE I would argue. good god.)

Hm. yeah tht. That's not healthy.

[tumblingxelian]

Had a realization regarding the Aware AU. The question of if Sabrina & Adrien are friends was asked and I think the answer is an emphatic yes.

Cos timeline wise, Emilie disappeared when the previous school year was still on. This was followed by the grief and then the revelation "Our parents don't care about us" crisis's, leading out the school year & a two month break.

Sabrina may not have met Adrien during the school period, but during the break. When Adrien's actively agitating to get out, when Chloe is aggressively trying to both reinvent herself and generally distance herself from her parents. That's when she'd meet him and given how easily Adrien makes friends its easy on his end.

For Sabrina it'd also be a neat experience cos if we go by season 1 she was both very game for anything and also really liked the idea of her & Chloe being thick as thieves. Chloe tended to stamp the breaks on that and remind her who was leading, IE the "We're awesome- sorry you're awesome" thing.

Here though?

That's less of a thing.

Not to say its not present, if anything overcoming her dynamic with Sabrina would likely be one of the hardest things to do. But she also pointedly cares about their relationship and Sabrina idolizes her so there's no shortage of second chances.

Plus she'd be actively trying to cut out some of her more overtly unfair behaviors by virtue of them being mimicry as opposed to her trauma bleeding through. So while she might need practice, some things do get intentionally ignored or rejected to make a point. "No Sabrina's not my assistant she's my friend and probably way smarter than you, Felix."

Adrien's presence would also help in this regard. He'd not see the dynamic itself as inherently terrible. Its Andrey & Audrey, Emilie & Gabriel, even himself & Chloe to an extent. A more gentle accommodating (Weaker) personality being led by a more aggressive, bold (Strong) personality.

His main contributions would be just highlighting when she's acting too much like her parents, especially Audrey & otherwise serving as a buffer for when she's too prickly to be anything but hostile. With the former call out leading Chloe to usually reverse course change thrusters and circle back and the latter giving plenty of bonding time.

Plus, Sabrina's respect for authority is pretty much only respect for Chloe's authority. So she'd be very happy to help in any scheming and generally be down for whatever they are up to in easy defiance of Gabriel or Andre.

So yeah I think they'd definitely be friends by the time school rolls around.

How cognizant she'd be to their situation or what brought the changes on... I think she'd have picked up enough clues that she knows their parents suck & they realized their parents suck & are now essentially in a constant state of low grade rebellion.

The specifics, extent or ways this manifest in issues would be harder to parse given her general reverence/dedication to people she likes/admires. But I imagine she'd have a pretty decent grasp of Adrien's situation mechanically, and knows/deduces far more of Chloe's than she realizes.

Honestly I love Adrien and Sabrina friendships and I really need to write more of that.

Also while Sabrina isn't in the 'rich' club she can be put in the 'oh I realized my dad sucks' club.

[tumblingxelian]

Some more arkos quickies. Also, shoutout to all the redditors who make threads about my fanart <3 love ya, you silly people

[tumblingxelian]

I did get @'d no worries :)

Mhm and like, Kagami is seemingly always something of an emotional maelstrom, she's one of the more Akumatized characters on the cast. So this scans very well! Also agreed, not sure what form this Akuma would take but instability and inherently contradictory seems very likely.

Honestly that'd be interesting, though I think a lot would depend on how much Chat knows regarding identities and such. It could also happen after the battle as being exorcised usually leaves one kind of worn a bit unless they are Audrey. So Kagami might give some context, Chat is upset but also like eyes wide open & Kagami goes to leave. Ladybug dips and is replace with Marinette on damage control mode.

Excellent summary on the nature of abuse too, kudos!

Was musing on the Aware AU and how the trio internalize and process the abuse and otherwise contextualize or understand and communicate it or otherwise maybe fail to do so.

Because realizing a parent is unfair or doesn't care or is cruel is one thing. It can often be another to straight up be aware of and say you are an abuse victim.

Be it because they are young and thus even with the spread of therapy speak, being able to use it effectively on themselves is hard.

Or because abuse victims don't often look like they do, IE, aren't usually mega rich heirs to powerful names. Even if being a rich child can be rather akin to being an exotic talking pet given none of that money is theirs.

Sad money also makes getting empathy hard and feeling there is a way out even harder. They may not want the former or at least not desire it consciously. But its also a case of, "If we were even believed what could anyone do?"

But then there's also the more personal takes on things, such as how:

Adrien may not blame himself for his fathers inability to love him (Or at least love him in a not terrible way) but he sure as hell blames himself for "Fooling himself" for so long. He's known Gabriel his whole life, he is his son, if anyone should have figured out what he was like it was Adrien. But he didn't so he can't blame anyone else for not seeing it.

Then there's stuff like media where cold and controlling parents get redemption arcs by being soft once or the like. Adrien's just throwing popcorn at the screen, "He's lying to you, its a trick, he'll never change!"

Kagami genuinely loves fencing, she loves how skilled she is, she loves that she is a world renowned fencer. This makes it hard to deal with when abuse is woven into training, such as with overly violent spars, or with training sessions that see her hit the ground and then be forced up again and again.

She's used to her body hurting after training, the issue isn't the punishment, its how arbitrary and unfairly her mother applies them Compounded with the social isolation, control and emotional repression which she has a hard time naming. Meanwhile you have Marinette just wanting to scream because Tomoe is intentionally harming her daughter as punishment.

She'd likely need an outsider to highlight the punishment spars themselves are a bad idea that hinder rather than help her. That the pain itself was wrong, not just when or why it was applied. Kagami is proud of who she is and what she can do. So to some degree she sort of.. Needs the trauma. Because if it was unnecessary, if it isn't how she got so good, then it was just pain.

Chloe has the. other victims do not look like me jacked up to eleven. Most victims are not rich, most people who are aggressive (In her research) are physical and were harmed physically. Most don't have mayor fathers who bailed them out of trouble, though be it to make her reliant on them and feed his own self esteem, hence encouraging her acting out as it fed him.

But its also because she chose to imitate Audrey. She chose this path in order to win her parents love and it didn't even work. She chose this and now she is not choosing it but something else. She had agency in this god dammit and don't you dare tell her otherwise! She is not a victim! She is not weak!

Feeding into that is stuff like Andre actively and outright teaching her, "Extortion, intimidation, bribery, these are how you win a campaign." Because even as she restructures herself, part of her still defaults to these, part of her still sees them as pragmatic and useful. Part of her thinks they will be needed for her and the people they care about. So again, was it abuse or just Andre being bad at parenting?

Plus on the physical side of things, there is some stuff that can be bled into headcanon, among other things... But one thing I would note is that canon Chloe grabbing Zoe and inspecting her like livestock before giving her approval. How she gets so aggressively close and into people's space when she otherwise seems to try and be distant. This screams learned behavior and we can't even blame it all on Audrey cos she was more of a: Fly in tear my daughter apart and leave parent. With likely a mix of social media, calls and streams, or rejection from and via those to compound things. So she's getting this heavily from Andre. But its not overt, its not hitting, it can't be abuse then, because Chloe is too different to the victims she finds, too different to be seen as a victim.

All true! I don’t think any of the kids would apply the words "abuse victim" to themselves. Like, their parent suck. They suck SO BAD. Their parents are awful people who aren’t going to change. They know this. They accept this. But I'm not a VICTIM. I'm not ABUSED. I'm not what that looks like. It doesn’t apply to me(derogatory).

Funnily enough, they might apply it to EACH OTHER. Chloé absolutely thinks Gabriel is emotionally neglecting Adrien. Adrien thinks André and Audrey emotionally abuse Chloé. They both think Tomoe abuses Kagami. But it doesn’t apply to themselves, and they don’t bring it up or try to convince each other.

[tumblingxelian]

You mean 'Showing Love' that you made in 2023? I read that fics and Instead of stopping there, the story might go further since Marinette's character could be expanded to show how, despite Chloe's wealth, not everyone is fortunate enough to have a family like hers.

Unfortunately, it seems that you have no desire to depict Marinette in a difficult situation or as a mistake-prone person when it comes to Chloe, who is genuinely this way because of her parents' poor parenting methods.

I don't understand this ask? It's anonymous so I don't know what you are picking up off of.

Canon shows Marinette making scads of mistakes related to Chloé. I don't need to invent new ones, I just need to address the ones that exist. Marinette does still make mistakes in regards to Chloé in my fics. Those mistakes are just generally addressed fairly quickly rather than drawn out for tons of angst.

[tumblingxelian]

Thanks for the response on the Andre piece.

I was worried I was reading too much into the potential one side emotional incest angle but it seems everyone I mention it too gets it off the cuff.

Like horrifying obviously, but also aligns way to fucking well with how the relationship operated in the canon for comfort actually.

ML is the single best show I've ever encountered for accidently creating realistic toxic dynamics and child abuse.

[tumblingxelian]

Thanks and ooh interesting response! As to the base question, not sure, it may happen all at once or one at a time, via someone else's hand or when it kind of hits a breaking point due to the constant push and pull of the evolving dynamic or something else. A lot would depend on what makes the most sense for the story thematically and narratively, were it written.

As to your observations, yeah Chloe & Adrien are way too close and way too used to each others stuff. Again in canon Adrien totally understands derailing a train to win love & while Chloe's deeply upset Adrien can't go to school she's not like scared for him exactly? It feels more like moving away kind of sadness than, "My friend is trapped with his abuser" sadness. Also yeah, Kagami even in canon can be subtly defiant, but she talks around problems if she talks about them at all, like the lack of friends, and does not touch on deeper, more dangerous topics.

Nino definitely feels like one of the better positioned characters to bring it up. Especially given Sabrina is more used to unbalanced dynamics and so might not key into the worst aspects that fast. Also agreed on Nino having high emotional intelligence and he can be very passionate and forward such as with Bubbler, though I agree he'd likely be leery of being so overt and may not even strictly have the words himself. Not right away at least. Also yes that would go over terribly XD Nino: Damn, your parents should just belike, in jail and die there. LOL (Is dead serious)

Gosh yeah Marinette would fucking GRAPPLE with this and not have an easy time. Like on a base default she'd just assume Tomoe is strict I think. But I don't think it'd take long into a friendship to start seeing patterns emerge or idle comments on things normalized to Kagami for her to click things together. Especially because its more overtly physical even if it is disguised as training, so it matches with her mental image of what abuse looks like better.

Also yeah, Kagami would like brace and rankle at the suggestion. Her mothers decision to punish her is unreasonable, the motives, are but the punishment is just harder training, or a aggressive spar. Its fine, she's fine, this is why she's strong! I love that "She wouldn't LET herself be hurt bit, cos it fits so well and hurts so badly! Also yeah I think she'd need to circle back and focus on just being her friend, she might need some guidance from her parents on that as Marinette is very problem solving oriented, but she'd get there.

Honestly that'd be an interesting way to have that sharp break in Marinette's conception of the blondes. Cos she knows Kagami, she likes Kagami, Kagami is a good person who has had bad things happen to her and she reached this conclusion seemingly in an instant. I don't think it'd... Stick right away exactly, but it'd shake her up, leave her contemplative.

Also yeah definitely an accident on her part, but she has limited social experience and even smaller pools of reference for parentage and childhoods like her own.

Recalling a scene from Queen of Secrets where Kagami muses that she fears her mothers anger & dreads her disappointment. But that she always knew her mother would at least do the bare minimum of acknowledging her existence and efforts by remembering her name.

Also gosh that would be a fascinating argument for them to have. Like Kagami is just maybe processing this idea, then also having the experience invalidated by the person pushing for it. & its painful to be conceptualizing herself as a victim in the first place and she places such value on her capabilities too. It could very easily get messy.

Plus Akuma!

Was musing on the Aware AU and how the trio internalize and process the abuse and otherwise contextualize or understand and communicate it or otherwise maybe fail to do so.

Because realizing a parent is unfair or doesn't care or is cruel is one thing. It can often be another to straight up be aware of and say you are an abuse victim.

Be it because they are young and thus even with the spread of therapy speak, being able to use it effectively on themselves is hard.

Or because abuse victims don't often look like they do, IE, aren't usually mega rich heirs to powerful names. Even if being a rich child can be rather akin to being an exotic talking pet given none of that money is theirs.

Sad money also makes getting empathy hard and feeling there is a way out even harder. They may not want the former or at least not desire it consciously. But its also a case of, "If we were even believed what could anyone do?"

But then there's also the more personal takes on things, such as how:

Adrien may not blame himself for his fathers inability to love him (Or at least love him in a not terrible way) but he sure as hell blames himself for "Fooling himself" for so long. He's known Gabriel his whole life, he is his son, if anyone should have figured out what he was like it was Adrien. But he didn't so he can't blame anyone else for not seeing it.

Then there's stuff like media where cold and controlling parents get redemption arcs by being soft once or the like. Adrien's just throwing popcorn at the screen, "He's lying to you, its a trick, he'll never change!"

Kagami genuinely loves fencing, she loves how skilled she is, she loves that she is a world renowned fencer. This makes it hard to deal with when abuse is woven into training, such as with overly violent spars, or with training sessions that see her hit the ground and then be forced up again and again.

She's used to her body hurting after training, the issue isn't the punishment, its how arbitrary and unfairly her mother applies them Compounded with the social isolation, control and emotional repression which she has a hard time naming. Meanwhile you have Marinette just wanting to scream because Tomoe is intentionally harming her daughter as punishment.

She'd likely need an outsider to highlight the punishment spars themselves are a bad idea that hinder rather than help her. That the pain itself was wrong, not just when or why it was applied. Kagami is proud of who she is and what she can do. So to some degree she sort of.. Needs the trauma. Because if it was unnecessary, if it isn't how she got so good, then it was just pain.

Chloe has the. other victims do not look like me jacked up to eleven. Most victims are not rich, most people who are aggressive (In her research) are physical and were harmed physically. Most don't have mayor fathers who bailed them out of trouble, though be it to make her reliant on them and feed his own self esteem, hence encouraging her acting out as it fed him.

But its also because she chose to imitate Audrey. She chose this path in order to win her parents love and it didn't even work. She chose this and now she is not choosing it but something else. She had agency in this god dammit and don't you dare tell her otherwise! She is not a victim! She is not weak!

Feeding into that is stuff like Andre actively and outright teaching her, "Extortion, intimidation, bribery, these are how you win a campaign." Because even as she restructures herself, part of her still defaults to these, part of her still sees them as pragmatic and useful. Part of her thinks they will be needed for her and the people they care about. So again, was it abuse or just Andre being bad at parenting?

Plus on the physical side of things, there is some stuff that can be bled into headcanon, among other things... But one thing I would note is that canon Chloe grabbing Zoe and inspecting her like livestock before giving her approval. How she gets so aggressively close and into people's space when she otherwise seems to try and be distant. This screams learned behavior and we can't even blame it all on Audrey cos she was more of a: Fly in tear my daughter apart and leave parent. With likely a mix of social media, calls and streams, or rejection from and via those to compound things. So she's getting this heavily from Andre. But its not overt, its not hitting, it can't be abuse then, because Chloe is too different to the victims she finds, too different to be seen as a victim.

All true! I don’t think any of the kids would apply the words "abuse victim" to themselves. Like, their parent suck. They suck SO BAD. Their parents are awful people who aren’t going to change. They know this. They accept this. But I'm not a VICTIM. I'm not ABUSED. I'm not what that looks like. It doesn’t apply to me(derogatory).

Funnily enough, they might apply it to EACH OTHER. Chloé absolutely thinks Gabriel is emotionally neglecting Adrien. Adrien thinks André and Audrey emotionally abuse Chloé. They both think Tomoe abuses Kagami. But it doesn’t apply to themselves, and they don’t bring it up or try to convince each other.

[tumblingxelian]

special fishes

*dies*

[tumblingxelian]

Okay so this is actually part of a much longer (series of) post(s) detailing/speculating on what I'm calling 'Ruby's and Yang's Family Reckoning' in Volume 10 and beyond, but I thought it'd be fun to throw this up as it's own little thing for now:

I actually completely understand WHY some fans keep defending Tai as a 'good'/'not-actually-a-total-fuckup' parent.

Because the show/writers are actually pulling a long-game, subversive narrative rug-pull with Tai just like they did with Ozpin, Ironwood and Qrow.

Think about it; Tai is introduced early on in the story as the seemingly 'Good Dad'. And he certainly LOOKS that way on the surface, given his lack of typical 'shitty dad' traits he see so often in stories. He's even first mentioned alongside what SEEMS to be a typical 'Bad Mom' who left her kids in Raven.

Just like Ozpin, Qrow and Ironwood were introduced as similar 'good-guy' archetypes; the Wise Teacher, the Quirky Mentor and the Heroic Soldier.

All while planting NUMEROUS and evergrowing hints, clues and red flags in the margins, between the lines and just outside our audience field of view, all in preparation for when the story is ready to yank the proverbial rug out from under both the audience AND our heroines that the adults they've been trusting this whole time are actually MASSIVE screw-ups who have been making a mess of everything.

The hints to Ozpin's general shadiness, the clues to Qrow's self-destructive alcoholism and depression, the red-flags that Ironwood was actually on the fast-track to fascism, and all the indicators that Tai was actually a complete and total fuck-up of a dad.

The only difference with Tai is that the show hasn't decided to shine the light of narrative focus ON all of his numerous problems and fuckups and force our heroines to confront them like it already has with Ozpin and Qrow in Volume 6, and Ironwood in Volume 7.

At least, not YET.

And do you remember how we actually had plenty of people who MISSED all those hints, clues and red flags surrounding Ozpin, Qrow and Ironwood? Specifically people who were denying that those meant anything right up until the moment they DID mean something?

Yeah, I'm not actually surprised at all we're seeing the same thing with Taiyang.

[tumblingxelian]

hi!! do you take commissions?

I do! I'll open them again next month ^^

[tumblingxelian]

Feminist Knuckles

Sonic Boom (2014-2017) / Knuckles (2024-)

[tumblingxelian]

Homophobes: But did the plot really need a gay relationship?

Me, a gay who’s watched seasons of unnecessary heterosexual drama stretched out:

[tumblingxelian]