underbardk

[underbardk]

So Zao Zhi, helping hold Yan when Cao Cao was away and that whole being credited with the prosperity of the state thing is admirable. However now he has finally achieved true greatness by being the figure whose page creation took me over the 500 edits mark to access Wikipedia library.

In all seriousness, history can be an expensive hobby if not got institutional access. It is great that Rafe De Crespigny, Xiaofei Tian and others put what they can out for free, there are libraries and places like academia.edu and jstor try to help. But subscriptions can rack up to the hundreds quite quickly, books often are expensive. Wikipedia's library gives access to 72 collections and a chance to apply to another 26. For three kingdoms history, Brill (De Crespigny works), Cambridge University Press (history of China), De Gruyter, Jstor (the unlimited version with downloads), Proquest, Taylor and Francis (publishers of early medieval China journal and other such journals). I successfully applied for the online library Perlego on top of that which contains books that aren't covered there. These include new books. Cambridge History of China volume 2, Imperial Warlord, Fire over Luoyang. Free. Some works on Jstor that the usual subscriptions didn't get like Michuad's work on the Turbans also free. Not 100% everything everywhere (pro-quest's Portraits of Ts'ao Ts'ao is not) but I have been really surprised at what has turned out to be free. Its search isn't the greatest, but you can back it up with Google to see if published by one or on one of the sites then go in via wiki access. Also, if you search, you can find works that you didn't know existed. If you find a citation that catches your eye, certainly worth trying the wiki library to see if there. If you know a book is published by one of those in Wikipedia library, go via the library and have a look.

It won't give you every book as there are other publishers, but access to the collection will save a lot of money on subscriptions or on books. Saving precious cash for other works or for other things. Access allows you not just to read works, current and archive, but (bar Perlego) to download them to keep. I know Wikipedia has a bad reputation among our community, but the rewards for sticking to editing (six months, 500 edits then ten in a month, no being barred) are a considerable way to expand access to resources and save money.

[underbardk]

Maps of the Three Kingdoms

Over the past few months, I embarked on a little adventure making 3K maps, and now that I have finished everything, I'm pretty excited to share all the maps!

The maps are based on The Historical Atlas of China map collection for the 3rd year of Jingyuan (262), with topography provided by digital elevation models from HydroSHEDS.

The problem with using modern topography on ancient maps is of course that sometimes labelled landforms do not match nicely to the local topography, since measurements may not be so precise in the past. I tried my best to correct when I could, but otherwise, I left them as it is when I couldn't find a clear possible correction (so don't be surprised to see some rivers flowing along mountain peaks!).

Tumblr compresses images quite a bit so for now the full collection (including overall and individual provinces) is on SOSZ here.

[underbardk]

Oh no the secret is out

Taylor & Francis is also available through the Wikipedia Library, most relevant for Three Kingdom purposes with their inclusion of the Early Medieval China journal. Project Muse is another significant one for it provides access to a number of books and articles about the period.

Hello Again!

So you might have noticed I am back. Sorry I have been away so long, life caught up with me and then slight worry of catching up what I had missed. Outside of that seen a few nice things, learned (to some degree) to edit Something that might of interest to people here: Wikipedia has, for its longer term contributors (500 edits, of which I'm short, 10 in last month, no bans, been there six months), an online library service. JSTOR and Pro-quest are the ones that stand out for possible resources (I have JSTOR, I know that has some very useful stuff on there) for those studying the three kingdoms.

Missed you guys

[underbardk]

This is a good time to dig up posts I had written back when I still have the mental clarity and attention span. Purported tiles from Cao Cao’s Bronze Bird Terrace that in all likelihood did not originate from the terrace were popular souvenirs of the literali of the Tang and Song dynasties. They were quite commonplace that at least one ended up in Japan.

Speaking of Japan, I do find Wei and Wu bronze mirrors unearthed in Japanese tombs fascinating. These were considered sacred objects in prehistoric Japan, and they might have ended up there due to Wei and Wu’s diplomatic struggle for legitimacy, a story untold through texts!

https://www.tumblr.com/underbardk/640728340238663680/the-bronze-bird-terrace-tile-inkstone-of-the

In the spirit of the latest Indy release, are there any relics of the Three Kingdoms era that are worth a spotlight in a similar way as many western artefact?

Seven Star Dagger comes to mind as a purely pulpy example, but I was wondering if there would be anything more grounded in reality? Or if not, what are some fun items at the time that "belong in a museum?"

Thanks!

I don’t know of anything in particular, but I don’t really study the material culture of the Han people. It’s a subject that is much too big for independent study (compared to the much narrower field of war and politics) and one that I don’t see any way I can meaningfully contribute to.

I study stories. Lives. Individuals. Every life has a narrative and the whole reason I study history is because I like to bring those stories to as many people as possible. My studies are very narrow because they are solely in the interest of telling these stories. I want the world to remember lives long lost.

[underbardk]

The translation “Stone Sentinel Maze“, needless to say, comes from Dynasty Warriors. It’s originally 石兵八陣 in the original Japanese, which is, as far as I can tell, Yoshikawa Eiji’s title for the chapter where that story happens in his adaptation of the Romance. This name became ubiquitous in Japanese popular media of the Three Kingdoms, to the point even the Chinese started to refer to the 八陣圖 formation with that name.

Did Zhuge Liang really invent the repeating crossbow?

No, it comes from very poor translation work as it is never said that he invented it, he merely made adjustments to it.

亮性長於巧思，損益連弩，木牛流馬，皆出其意；推演兵法，作八陳圖，咸得其要云。

[Zhūgě] Liàng had powerfully inventive thoughts, discarding and adding to the repeating crossbow, the wood oxen and flowing horse’s creation were all his doing; he investigated and discussed military methods, putting together Eight Formations Chart, all were to peak performance.

Also the usage of crossbow, and the idea of a repeating one is in the Mozi, 備高臨. The reason it is less known as both due to people just not reading Mozi, to my annoyance, or the fact that Needham hasn’t used the term “repeating crossbow”, but instead calls it “multiple-boltarcuballista”.

[underbardk]

You have no idea how triggered this ordeal has made me in the 75 minutes I have been made known of it.

The amount of digging for Huang Giugu and the sources on it has been absurdly funny, all things considered.

[underbardk]

Just wanted to add that the Sekitouba (Red Hare) character is also a reference to the real life Japanese rapper Ryofu Karma, who named himself after Lu Bu.

Anyway, Ya Boy Kongming is at its core an idol anime where character arcs are important than the plot. You probably can skip a few episodes and come back without missing much.

Probably the novelty of concept (of Zhuge Kongming producing aspiring musician) just weared off by episode five.

Or because they refer to RotTK more than Chronicles

No one watching the show is hoping for anything even remotely historically accurate. That'd be an insane thing to expect.

I haven't watched it and don't plan to but I would guess that the novelty wore off fast. Should've given him a dog and let him solve crimes or something. Or let him be a detective's weird consultant. That never gets old.

[underbardk]

It’s always worth the effort to ensure the information is correct where people actually go.

Should this Three Kingdoms community starts a project where you guys collaborate with each other and try to re-write as many TK Wikipedia articles as possible so they could have the most accurate info?

Saving 3K Wikipedia isn't worth the effort.

We could, however, coordinate contributions to the good wiki.

[underbardk]

Removed Xu Chang, since the Wikipedia article defines the End of the Han dynasty as beginning from the Yellow Turban Rebellion.

The problematic edits were placed only two days ago.

Most of these are outside of the timeline of the Three Kingdoms 184-220, the rest are badly redirect link that bring nothing like the conflict "Assassination of Dong Zhuo" is just a link to his wiki death. He also removed Chibi from what I have seen. There is the same problem with Three Kingdoms conflict.

I think it was four outside it? Xu Chang is also in the novel (if I recall rightly) despite being earlier, depends how literal @underbardk thinks the time line should be.

Removed (or fixed where possible) anything that has just a link to person or not actual conflict in both templates, added back Chibi.

[underbardk]

Thanks, Dongzhou.

Liu Shan having a mental disability is a popular Chinese narrative for the reasons mentioned above, usually uttered in the same breath as Liu Bei giving him head trauma after touching down at Changban. Needless to say this is a novel-based meme that got taken seriously.

I did some quick reading on Liu Shan (through wikipedia) and he was possibly described as mentally handicapped to an extend. How severe was this "handicap" if any at all? Was he able to feed and cloth himself or was it like talking to an adult child. He just could not handle "deep" conversations?

This is why we have the old saying: stay the hell off Wikipedia.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Liu Shan suffered from any kind of mental handicap. Quite the opposite, Liu Bei's final missive to his son compliment his growing wisdom and gives him some reading recommendations. Liu Shan was, at worst, a man of perfectly average intelligence and quite possibly above average.

The suggestion that he was otherwise comes from a number of extremely stupid assumptions. People who want to attack the state of Shu use it as an insult. People who want to justify the outsized influence Zhuge Liang and his successors held give that as a reason why it was fine. All of this is very dumb, of course.

[underbardk]

Dynasty Warriors: Who Is Zhurong?

It’s somewhat amazing that anyone even talks about Zhurong. Although she almost certainly has her origin in earlier folktales and operas, she appears in only one chapter of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms but has overshadowed many other individuals who had much more time on the page. Maybe the idea of a tough Amazon is just too interesting for people to overlook.

Despite being a very minor figure in a much, much larger story, Zhurong has had a steady presence in Three Kingdoms adaptations for over 20 years now; at least as far as gaming goes. She made her introduction on the scene with Romance of the Three Kingdoms IV in 1994 and has appeared in most installments of the series ever since.

Years later, in 2001, Zhurong was introduced as a playable character in Dynasty Warriors 3. She was removed in DW6 but returned in DW7 and has remained a steady presence in the franchise and its spin offs ever since.

Zhurong is also one of the few characters who has had a more or less consistent personality throughout her history in the DW franchise. She’s a tough woman with a temper, one who doesn’t tolerate foolishness. She is also fiercely protective of her homeland and very affectionate to her husband, Meng Huo. She doesn’t make many appearances in those games but she’s usually part of the more unique stages inspired by Zhuge Liang’s southern campaign of 225.

She’s popped up in a few other places too. Zhurong has the distinction of being one of few characters featured as a monster card in an odd 1999 Magic the Gathering set. I haven’t played enough MTG to know if these stats are good, but the mere fact that she is present is kind of wild.

She appeared in the famously bizarre Kessen II (2001) and you can also find Zhurong in Total War: Three Kingdoms. Though not included in the game’s 2019 launch, she was one of the unique officers added with 2020’s The Furious Wild expansion.

I’m listing all these appearances because when you look at her origin, it’s nuts that she has this kind of consistent (if small) presence.

These different versions of Zhurong are all inspired by her appearance in Chapter 90 of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. It’s difficult to stress how brief this appearance is. Not only is it limited to a single chapter, her part is so short that it all easily fits in this essay.[1] You can read along for yourself at https://www.threekingdoms.com/090.htm

Meng Huo was much distressed. Before he had recovered, they told him: “The army of Shu has come over and is encamped at the mouth of Silver Pit Ravine.” Just as he was in the very depths of distress, a laugh came from behind the screen.

A minor note, because this will come up later: Dynasty Warriors usually depicts Zhurong riding an elephant. As you can see, she rides a horse in the Romance story. That same chapter does have elephants, though, being used by the chiefs Mulu and Wutugu. For what that’s worth.

The novel’s version of Zhang Ni and Ma Zhong don’t get the clout their historical counterparts deserve, but Zhurong winning out against them though both strength and cleverness does make for an interesting character. In the context of the story, it has to be a compliment that Zhuge Liang decided it would take Zhao Yun, Wei Yan, and Ma Dai to bring her down.

The Historical Zhurong

It’s a pretty widely known fact at this point that Zhurong, as depicted in the Romance and its adaptations, is a fictional character. Nevertheless, stories generally come from somewhere, and we can point to at least one figure of the Three Kingdoms era who likely inspired part of the Zhurong tale.

Lady Trieu

In the year 248, local forces in Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen revolted against the state of Wu. Emperor Sun Quan appointed a man named Lu Yin (a relative of Lu Xun) as the head of the province and sent him to put down the revolt. Lu Yin did so with relative ease. After meeting up with friendly local forces, he marched to the troubled area, giving generous rewards along the day. This quickly satisfied enough of the locals that the rebellion fizzled out. Lu Yin remained in the south for the next 10 years, putting down at least one other significant revolt in Cangwu and Jianling.[2]

Vietnamese sources record that during this time, there was a rebel leader known as Lady Trieu (Triu Au). The more or less standard version of the story can be found in the Complete Annals of Great Viet, completed in 1479.[3] All accounts of Lady Trieu agree that she was a ferocious warrior who rode on an elephant. They also write that she had breasts that were so long she could throw them over her shoulders. I have no comments on that but it felt like something I should mention. She was worshiped by a local cult following her death in battle against the Wu forces.[4] A Vietnamese king, Ly Bi, dedicated a shrine to her in the 6th century.[5]

While there is certainly room to debate the specifics of these various accounts there is no particular reason to doubt that Lady Trieu was a real person, a warrior and rebel leader. The similarities between her and the character of Zhurong are broad but easy to spot. With Lady Trieu being a leader of indiginous rebels during the Three Kingdoms era, it’s fair to assume that the legend of Zhurong found some inspiration from her.

Lady Cuan

Other sources of inspiration for the Zhurong can actually be found closer to home. One of the most important families of the Nanzhong region was the Cuan family. A stele created in the 5th century and dedicated to Cuan Longyan states that the family was descended from the Chinese fire god Zhu Rong.[6] This is, of course, a claim made by the fictional woman and the source of her name.

The Cuan family was prominent in 225, when Zhuge Liang led his campaign against rebels in the south. Cuan Xi is described as an uncle to both Yong Kai and Li Hui; the former being the main leader of the rebellion and the later being the official Shu tasked with governing Nanzhong. Both of their mothers must have been of the Cuan clan. After the rebellion was subdued, the Shu government acknowledged Cuan Xi as a general with independent command and validated his family’s control over the territory around Lake Dian.[7]

In the Cuan we find a powerful family of Nanzhong who played an ambiguous role in Yong Kai’s rebellion. They were connected to other regional magnates through marriage and claimed descent from a fire deity. It may be that the Cuan have some foothold in the later legend of Zhurong.

It would be going too far to say that Zhurong was a historical person, but there is more truth to her story than one might expect. We can see the root of her legend in the Cuan family and in the story of Lady Trieu. That’s a firmer foundation than Zhou Cang, at any rate.

Though never one of the most popular figures of Three Kingdoms lore, Zhurong has still achieved an outsized presence compared to her very brief appearance in the Romance. I generally like these adaptations, but I would love to see them lean into her historical roots more, such as they are. Giving her the Cuan surname would be a very firm step in that direction, giving her one foot firmly planted in the real world. It would be a good way to represent one of Nanzhong’s local powers and it could be interesting to see her grapple with the Cuan clan’s conflicted loyalties.

Endnotes

1.  SGYY 90 2.  SGZ 61.3 (Yang) 3.  Ngõ, S. L. (2020, September 18). Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư - Ngoại Kỷ Toàn Thư 4: Thuộc Tấn - Tống - Tề - Lương. Lý Nam Đế. Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư. Retrieved March 25, 2022, from https://www.diensu.com/2020/09/ai-viet-su-ky-toan-thu-ngoai-ky-toan_1.html  4.  Taylor, K. W. (1983). The Birth of Vietnam. University of California Press. p.70 5.  Taylor, K. W. (1983). The Birth of Vietnam. University of California Press. p. 110 6.  Cuàn Lóngyán Bēi 爨龙颜碑 7.  For more on this campaign, see https://classicalamateur.wordpress.com/2020/08/21/the-laixiang-expeditions/

[underbardk]

I don’t exactly want to consider myself as apart of whatever this “community” is, but man oh man the novel derangement syndrome shit is so damn cringe, and we really need to do a fucking better job at not only discouraging it, but providing a proper avenue for historical research that isn’t just “Guan Yu bad”.

[underbardk]

My first article on wiki was approved yesterday. My thanks to the editors for cleaning it up and particularly @underbardk who helped me with the officer infobox template

[underbardk]

wikipedia is totally worthless for this stuff crap lol

The free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit?!

Wikipedia can be useful and folks like @underbardk have and are doing their best to clean it up and make it a better resource.

However, and this applies to everything including my answers and those of everyone else's, always double check what you read. Even if you find something it is best to go out and confirm it. There are dozens of mistakes that are passed around here, on wiki, on reddit, discord, wherever. Either it is intentional or genuine, these things do happen. Always check everything. Even if there is accompanying chinese text with it, get someone who can double check that text because it could still be wrong then too.

Never trust anything at face value. This is why it is important that everyone researches. Don't just rely on your favorite whateverthehellanyofusare. Even if I can be really confidant in my answer I can still make a mistake. So can anyone else. There are fuckers that got PHDs and are PAID for this and they fuck up a lot. Absolutely some chucklefuck on tumblr or the Three Kingdoms discord can make an error.

Is Wikipedia faulty? Sure it is. But don't take information from everywhere else as gospel. Some people try their best and fuck up. Some fuck ups try their best and ruin everything. At the end of the day it is on you to be diligent and check for yourself.

[underbardk]

My Ukrainian friends are writing on twitter about their experiences in a country that was peaceful yesterday and now turned into a war zone. When I see their posts I’m both scared for them - and relieved: they are posting means they are alive.

My husband’s relatives are dying under the Russian bombs. We can’t contact some of them.

My husband’s father is dying from cancer. He’s been urgently hospitalized - yet we can’t even travel there to see him, possibly for the last time!

Meanwhile people in my native city in Russia (as well as in other Russian cities, big and small) are being beaten and arrested for daring to protest against the war.

(Photo by @merr1k on twitter)

My mother who is living alone in Russia was scared and crying during our last call. She never supported Putin, she never voted for him or his political parties. Now she can’t stop watching the news, horrified. We haven’t seen each other since Covid, and now the EU borders for ordinary Russian citizens may be closed, as many countries start to deny them visas. It’s the Iron Curtain all over again, enforced from both sides.

There are Russians who support this war - but the majority of them are against it! They protest on the streets, they donate to Ukrainian charities, they spread news on social media, they support their Ukrainian friends however they can. Look at #нетвойне and other Russian tags on twitter, FB and Instagram.

Russia =/= Putin!

Citizens of the Free World, demand actions from your politicians! This war must be stopped!

Asking for direct military support is useless, as Putin threatened to use nuclear weapons in case of third party military intervention.

Please, don’t demand sanctions that harm common people! There is a misconception - or, worse, a comfortable lie spread by Western politicians - that if you put enough pressure on Russian citizens they will arise and remove Putin. What a bullshit! Just look at North Korea. Better yet, look at Belarus where people kept protesting en masse - yet Lukashenko is still there. And Lukashenko has only a tiny fraction of money, manpower and other resources that Putin has! 

A common citizen is helpless against armored soldiers and anti-riot vehicles. Those who go on the streets are being fired from work, expelled from universities, arrested and put in jail.  And modern Russian prisons are worse than Gulag: in Gulag prisoners were made to work, in modern Russia they are tortured and raped for money and fun. So yeah, people are afraid, many feel helpless. Yet many in Russia still have courage to protest!

If you demand sanctions against Russia insist on those that either stop money influx for Putin so that he won’t be able to pay the troops and continue the war, or create pressure on his close circle so that they would off him or remove from power.

EU, stop buying Russian gas! This is the main source of Putin’s power. The war in Ukraine is funded by European money!!! It’s been 8 years since the conflict in Ukraine has started, yet you continued to pay him all these years! First you make Putin the richest dictator on Earth - and then you hope that Russian plumbers, teachers, housewives and teenagers will overthrow him! What a joke!

UK, you’ve been for years thriving on investments from corrupt Russian officials, your capital is their biggest laundromat, they have palaces, football clubs, businesses and what not, London is their second home so that their children don’t even speak Russian, some of your politicians are known to be paid bribes by Russian oligarchs and Putin’s friends! Don’t tell me you didn’t know that these money are dirty! Perhaps, it’s time to investigate?!

I understand people’s anger but please don’t harass ordinary Russians leaving abroad, don’t destroy or boycott their small businesses. They chose to live abroad precisely because they don’t support Putin’s regime! Many of them literally HAD TO flee, despite their will - because of their political views or sexual orientation.

Many Ukrainian citizens are ethnical Russians. Many Russian citizens are ethnical Ukrainians. Many are of the mixed descent. Even President Zelensky’s native language is Russian! Are you sure you are harassing the right person?! (*that’s sarcasm as harassment is never ok*) Yesterday two of my friends living together in Czechia had their nameplates on the house splashed with red paint - yet one of them is Russian, the other is Ukrainian, and both are against the war!

If you want to be of REAL help for Ukraine:

- Donate to Ukrainian charities! - Demand actions from your politicians! - Help Ukrainian refugees! - Ask your governments not to close borders for Ukrainians! - Spread information on social media - but ALWAYS FACT CHECK! Be extra-careful for misinformation. - NEVER spread information about movements of Ukrainian troops! If you see such posts - either ask to remove them or report. - Don’t spread hate: by doing so, you are alienating Russian population and play in favor of the Russian official propaganda! Everyone who is against this war should stand united now, no matter ethnicity or citizenship!

We are living in a nightmare now, but this nightmare has to stop and never be repeated! Peace for Ukraine! And freedom for Russia!

[underbardk]

Hey, the wiki page for Zipingpu Dam has a massive error. It states it was created nearly 2,000 years ago in Shu-Han, dating back to 256 AD. However in the Shiji's treatise on canals it mentions the initial system being attributed to Li Bing during the reign of Qin's King Zhao-Xiang. 蜀守冰鑿離碓，辟沫水之害，穿二江成都之中。此渠皆可行舟，有餘則用溉浸，百姓饗其利。

it looks like someone vandalized the page and changed BC to AD. The main Dujiangyan page has the correct date. Fixed.