vopekoo

[vopekoo]

I agree with everything you said. I, too, disagree with some things BH did but the world isnt black or white. Most of the people that hate the company do it in a very childish way in the way the present their argument.

For example, am I annoyed that Tae was discouraged to sing the christmas song with Jimin? Yes. Do I think the reason was homophobia/heteronormativity? Yes. Do I think the producer who said it to Tae is homophobic ? Yes. But do I think the whole company should burn? No. We already know Bang PD is supportive of LGBT community, maybe even a part of it. Unfortunatly, one bad comment was enough to discourage Tae and I understand. It’s horrible to hear those worlds, even more if he is a part of the LGBT community and is in the closet. There are so many people who works in that company. The fandom only know a few, meanwhile there are so many ppl behind the scene. I am not naive enough to think they should all be good people and all open minded. 

People get angry at the least of disagreement. BTS showed time and time that when they want it they can stand their ground against the agency. Obviously, shit will never be ideal. Sometimes they might not get exactly what they asked for but that’s basic business relationship. BTS could have walked away, not renew the contract. I am sure a lot of agency would want to take them from BH hands. And BTS know the fandom will follow them. They could ruin BH if they wanted to. They arent as powerless as the fandom thinks. We say everyday “BTS built this empire”. By that logic, they can destroy it if they want to. 

BigHit Thoughts Follow-Ups

All right! Okay, here are a couple more follow-ups to my BH posts. These are the only additional asks I’ll publish about this, I’ve said all I wanted to on the topic really, and I don’t want to read any more anon asks about this.

If you have something to say, please put it in the comments. I’ll be deleting any asks that come in about this unread, because I want to move on to other things. Mostly, Vmin. I miss Vmin, and I had high hopes of finishing my vlive post today for the 5 year anniversary (*sobs*). Fingers crossed it happens tomorrow!

But. Anyway. These asks run the spectrum of different reactions folks have, and so hopefully resolve the remaining questions. If you still disagree with me, *shrugs* it’ll be up to you in the end whether or not you still want to read my blog, I guess: 

Original anon: I agree with you, but want to emphasize BH is a corporation [Drift: I actually 100% agree with your view, as stated in this ask. Yes, BH is absolutely a corporation! I think BH at a top-down level are a marvelous business case—that’s just my real-life job coming to the fore—at a bottom-up level they’re a company and I have my own gripes with them. The main point I wanted to emphasize is to not be black & white, to not make their staff into villains, and to not paint BTS as needing rescue. So in all that, we seem to be in alignment.]

I think Jimin did do some hiphop, he just majored in contemporary and had to “relearn” hiphop! [Drift: Edited previous post and added evidence for clarity and precision]

Taehyung & Jungkook have talked about having grand ambitions for their solo songs, do you not keep up with interviews? [Drift: They have, they just… haven’t yet? But they want to and plan to? Which is great? …I’m not sure I understand how this paints BH as stopping them from growing as artists, it implies the opposite since they can?]

As a long-time ARMY, BH has mistreated BTS over the years. What has been done aren’t BTS’s decisions [Drift: No, it’s not solely BTS’s decision, I’ve never said it is. We can understand it’s a compromise between BH, BTS, and broadcasters/the industry at large. We don’t know what they would ideally want, but we know what they consented to. Again, I’ll repeat myself: they told me to trust them and butt out, that’s what I’m doing and what I advise you all to do, rather than stewing needlessly about business matters we have no visibility into, thereby ignoring the vulnerability and strength they did want to share with us]. 

Magic Shop: 

Yes, I have this here because this whole series has maybe had too little joy. Also, it apparently really upsets people that I appreciate Bang PD, so… I wanted to share tidbits from his NPR profile, which I read for the first time as I was doing research into for these responses (see anon #4? xD I do make sure to research). 

it’s just so freaking delightful. More fun quotes below, but to kickstart with this. Remember this man is a billionaire (in USD).

Bang has said he is a huge fan of Duran Duran, reads anime [Drift: manga, NPR means, come on NPR, get your terms right xD] every night, and cries easily during corny movie scenes. “I’d bawl my eyes out, this forty-something man in only his underwear. I felt more ashamed when I was eating jajangmyeon at the same time,” he said in a 2011 interview.

Of course Jimin & Taehyung would gleefully call a man like this Shi Hyuk hyung. Of course.

More on this at the very end. 

Afficher davantage

[vopekoo]

Let’s Talk About Taehyung’s Christmas Song Vlive [181005]

Well, while I’ve made your heart warm with Tata, let’s break it a bit with the Christmas Song Vlive from October 5, 2018.

This is pretty infamously the vlive where Taehyung publicly complained a producer wouldn’t let him sing Happy Christmas with Jimin, and showed that post-it with the very Jimin-looking heart-face that he said meant, “I Purple You,” as I just wrote in my Tata post. But I picked up on two other things that fundamentally shifted how I think about what happened with Happy Christmas.

1. Taehyung actually specified the “producer-hyung” who told him to sing/record the guide with Adora: it was PDogg (48:20). This changes everything about how we should understand this incident.

I literally don’t know why I never knew this before? WHY IS THIS NOT THE FIRST THING PEOPLE SAY WHEN THEY MENTION THIS INCIDENT?! Is it because fandom doesn’t know how the music industry works & PDogg’s role in relation to BTS?

If you don’t know PDogg, you should. He’s the most important in-house producer at BH—honestly, one of the most important producers in Korea period (here’s an excellent profile/interview of him if you want to know more). 

It’s hard to overstate how instrumental he’s been to BTS’s success. He literally produced all the hits that catapulted them to each new stage of fame: Spring Day, Blood Sweat & Tears, Fake Love, Idol. And if you look at BTS’s interview for  The Immortal Songs PDogg special, it’s very clear they respect him deeply. RM dubs him the “8th member” of BTS, Jimin considers him a “teacher, friend, and colleague,” and Taehyung jokes (?) that he’s “the CEO of BH” (though I will say Tae’s attitude towards him is a bit harder to read—but they work closely, so I can’t imagine it’s a terrible relationship).  

Granted, Tae mentions “two” producer-hyungs in his live, the first (unnamed) who said the lyrics wouldn’t make sense between two men, the second (Pdogg) who told him to record the guide with Adora. It possible they’re 2 different producers, though the way he pauses, then slowly specifies PDogg indicates to me they might be one and the same, and Tae was simply hesitating about naming him (Again, it’s 48:20 if you want to check yourself).

And Tae definitely had cause to hesitate. By naming him, Taehyung was on some level criticizing BTS’s most important producer. That’s a big deal. 

First off, what a power move. 

Second off, no way was this “simply” homophobia. I would’ve believed that when the whole ordeal was possibly some random in-house producer that might’ve said something that hurt Tae’s feelings, maybe casually mentioned that the “lyrics don’t fit two men" or something.

But that PDogg - who works with the boys regularly, whom they respect - was the one involved? No way. 

That it was PDogg that recommended the guide with Adora (which, apparently, turned out great - Tae certainly likes it), and then the song stalled, indicates a call was made that Taehyung & Jimin couldn’t sing Happy Christmas. And logically, the call must’ve either come from PDogg or even higher up (and honestly, from a creative standpoint, you can’t get much higher than PDogg at BH unless you’re talking Bang PD himself) – and it was a call that Taehyung obviously disagreed with, so deeply that he went on live to make it known. While again, naming their most important producer in the matter - a producer they generally like and respect.  

So let’s ask ourselves the obvious question: Bang PD has said the boys balance creative freedom & commerciability on official releases (and the label helps craft that commerciability, obviously); but that they have free reins for unofficial releases, mixtapes, etc. And we can see, broadly, it’s true—else RM & Suga’s mixtapes wouldn’t be so explicit, and touch on topics as taboo in Korea as suicide ideation. 

So why did they interfere on Happy Christmas—a tiny passion project of Taehyung, in the grand scale of things, one that most likely would’ve just been released on Soundcloud, a simple Christmas song sung by two members as a gift for fans? 

Wouldn’t it, essentially, have been the same as Jimin & JK’s Christmas Day (adapted from Mistletoe by Justin Bieber), which BH had no problems with them releasing for Christmas, 2014?

Unless it wasn’t just a “simple Christmas song” sung by two members. Or they were afraid it might not be perceived that way.

If so, why the fear? 

I’m going to just leave the answer of why this might’ve been unspoken. But I think you know what I think.

2. On the live, Taehyung specified he started work on this song “last Christmas,” that is, December 2017 (which I didn’t know before). That’s nearly a full year before he came to live and said he wouldn’t do the song if it weren’t with Jimin. This makes it even more likely 1) it was always intended as a gift to Jimin; 2) that the song heralded some… relationship changes.

Remember how in FESTA 2018, while Jimin was ragging that RM & Suga wouldn’t give him a song, Taehyung—out of nowhere—piped up with, “I’ll give you one.” And to my eye, Jimin looked genuinely surprised that Taehyung was writing a song (I’ve written about this exchange before. At the time, I just thought it was cute Jimin & Tae were supportive of each other’s endeavors. Though I was surprised post-4 O'Clock that Jimin didn’t know Tae was writing).

Now? knowing this timeline? 

Doesn’t it seem highly likely this song was meant as a surprise gift for Jimin? Like, that it’s why Jimin was so surprised and Tae could so confidently say, “I’ll write you one!” in FESTA 2018?—I mean, he already was writing Jimin one, Jimin just didn’t know it.

And I’ll say this again, the song sounds like a “Jimin song.” Upbeat rhythm, the addictive hook and melody, bells instrumentation? Seriously, compare it side-by-side to Christmas Love, any similarities to you?

[This timeline, by the way, makes it more devastating that Taehyung spoke about the song again in December 2019. That means he’d worked on it for minimum 8 months, then kept it sitting around on his phone after it was denied for a year. So that’s two whole years, maybe more—for all we know, it might still be on his phone. It was cute when we learned that Tae’s dumpling park video from 2016 was still on his phone 4 years later. Happy Christmas? Not so much. It must be such a sad memory for Taehyung—like, think about putting that much effort into a gift, and then not being able to gift it. And yet still Taehyung kept it. Gosh, my heart]

And of course, we all know from the Share the Heart Vlive that Jimin wanted to give the person he loves a song for Christmas right? You can watch at 1:31. And you know I’m not big on body language, but Taehyung definitely registered the answer—he’s right next to Jimin, stares at him for a lot of it, even makes eye-contact with Jimin as he answers, and finally nods, claps, and smiles at the end (that’s probably the most significant gesture to me, it signifies in a clear and unambigious way that Tae registered Jimin’s answer and appreciated it (he didn’t clap for anyone else later)). 

Happy Christmas was not one he “whimsically” decided to duet with Jimin on, as others claim to try to minimize (*eyeroll*). I’m pretty darn sure now it was intended as a gift for Jimin.

And. Let’s keep going I guess, and take this to its conclusion. I’d say let’s put on our delulu hats but I don’t feel delulu, it’s that sort of night. If we’re trying to consider if there was a reason for the label to be nervous in Oct 2018, the timeline’s a little too… logical: 

Dumpling Incident where Their Relationship Changed happen in June 2016. 

The video above is from Dec 2016, during Blood Sweat & Tears era, when we know they were inseparable (*cough* Gucci sweater & Tae’s “what about it” when asked; ISAC 2017 in Jan). 

In summer 2017, BV2 & 4 O’Clock, both essentially expressing Tae’s care, love, and gratitude to Jimin. And according to Jimin, Tae cried for reasons only Jimin knows.

In December 2017, Taehyung began working on Happy Christmas, pretty obviously a gift for Jimin as I said. 

Summer 2018, BV3 in Malta - enough said on what they were like there.

Some time in Aug-Oct 2018, Taehyung must’ve spoken to the label in earnest about getting that song recorded in time for Christmas… and firmly told no. And Jimin either found out during or after the discussion, I assume (definitely by the vlive, when all ARMY found out). But as far as I know, Jimin has never commented on it.

I’ll leave that timeline for you to stare at. Wild, no? 

I’ll just conclude with these 2 thoughts: 

It looks less and less likely that Christmas Love & Snow Flower were released back to back “coincidentally,” and I’m now back to being a little sad they didn’t release a duet together—I assume that was Vmin’s choice, but who knows. Last year we know Tae was still pissed, this year we got these 2 lovely Christmas songs from Vmin, if separately, so… improvement?

I really, truly hope that KTH1, as Taehyung says, has all the emotions he wants to express to ARMY in it. That he mentioned in the 2021 New Year’s Greetings honestly made me a little nervous then, but I thought he might’ve just been speaking hypothetically—but now, knowing what I know about Happy Christmas? Maybe the delay is “normal”. EDIT: Or maybe, as a commenter posits, Tae was just referring to his artistic ability/capacity can express what he wants, that is, he’s being perfectionist about KTH1; or maybe his creative freedom might be a bit boxed in behind the scenes. I hope it’s not the latter. BTS/V is much more powerful and sophisticated as artists now, but also has much more to lose. For Taehyung’s sake, I sincerely wish his hopes come true. I can’t watch either of his 2 vlives involving Happy Christmas without getting upset, you can just see in those (and a ton of other things tbh, Tata, the Weverse posts, his answers on fansigns in 2017-18, Scenery, etc etc) that there are emotions he’s dying to express. 

[vopekoo]

I agree with everything you said. Also, more than upsetting the country and fans, I think they dont want to upset each other. Reading the translation of Outro : Tear (https://muish.wordpress.com/2018/05/22/bts-outro-tear-english-translation-and-ramblings/) which is about the group considering disbandment made me realise that it would hurt them as much as the fans. 

I think some of them considered leaving the group and others didnt agree. That’s how it sounds. They think a lot about the collective. And their bond is very strong. You know, I was a bit sceptical at first about the way they talk about their friendship. Sometimes, it feels like its too much. Like, they cant love each other so much, it must be for fanservice. But, when even their demonstration of love and admiration for each other are even subtile, I had to realise they are being sincere. They were so relieved that they managed to stay together that even the most stoic members cried like I have never see them before.

Not saying that 1D friendship is “clapped” but I think what helped BTS surviving disbandment  is their bond. If one of them feel weak, uncertain, the others will be there to push him forward and to comfort. Also, it helps that they can release solo works even tho its not being promoted. it helps letting out some frustration. 

And yeah, the weirdest thing is about the “no dating” rule which their industry loves to use as a marketing tool. Honestly, I have no idea how they feel about it. If they accept it because hey, its a part of the job. If they are tired of it. Honestly, with the size of their fandom I think they could date in public without losing much. I think even if they surely have the green light of the agency now they themselves wont date in public because they have been somewhat conditionned by the industry that is not a good thing and that they will upset fans even if it will only be a minority, their minds will obviously stay focused on the 0,1% who are upset.

And yeah at the end of the day its all about cultural differences. Both industry are bad. Self sacrifice, helping the community is honorable in Asia. Meanwhile in the west, ppl think only able themselves. Its good, because self care is important, but it can be bad because this mindset creates a lot of selfish assholes and sharks. I think we focus on the dark side of kpop because they are foreigners and everything that looks foreign seems weirder. Also we think western artists have more freedom when they actually dont and its years later when nobody care anymore that we find out they werent allowed to do some things and their contracts were awful. It’s just that the west hide their shit better and we also let them slide because we are too busy criticizing the others. 

Hey H! Don’t you think that BTS can fall into the same hole as 1D? I’m talking about the exploration, the mental health issues, and the imposible agenda in order to sell?

Bc one day I try to enter into Kpop but I saw what this carried for the idols and the pressure to be perfect, it was to much :((

Like 100% worst than the American industry

I’ve spoken about this a lot before, but both industries are highly exploitative. It’s clear that BTS have been pushed to work while sick and exhausted before, and it’s clear they’ve had periods of depression and not feeling good about any of it (songs like Blue and Grey and Black Swan tell that story). The weirdness around the idea of them dating or even being in the same space as a woman is a lot, and there’s definitely pressures to look a certain way etc. Idol academies are a really weird concept and clearly ripe for several forms of exploitation. 

I think there’s just...and I’m from the West and I’m white so I really can’t speak to this much...a different culture around work in South Korea, compared to much of the West. 

BTS have openly acknowledged feeling exhausted or not into several times before, but as Jimin once kind of said ‘you know I realised I would actually be less free out there than I would be here’. I think he was referring to the fact that money and status are such door openers, and even if he has to work very hard and even if there’s certain expectations, he knows the privileges that his current position affords him are, ultimately, a greater sort of freedom than not having to be in a band. 

Western cultures are often very into the individual, where as in the East, there can be more of an emphasis on the collective. With One Direction, I think they honestly mostly got sick of it and went after their individual interests and careers. Westerners often don’t really feel a sense of duty towards the ‘whole’ but rather a sense of exceptionalism towards the self. 

Where as I get the sense that BTS view their role as more...one of some kind of duty. Like it would be morally wrong to split up and disappoint everyone. They seem to take their role as ‘a bringer of joy and hope’ very seriously. 

BTS often come across as a group that feel like they have a purpose that’s more than individual. Eg they clearly feel like they are ambassadors for South Korea, they clearly feel like they are ambassadors for bringing up taboo topics like mental health and identities, they clearly feel like they have this duty to be charitable and somewhat political. I get the sense that they wouldn’t want to break up, maybe ever. I think they think BTS means too much to their country and too many people. 

I think both bands have likely been heavily exploited, but I just think BTS have a different way of mentally handling that. I mean...the members often cry off stage because their performance wasn’t perfect, which obviously isn’t super healthy, but it shows the cultural difference. 

In some ways, I think the way BTS views their situation is actually better. Eg I think Jimin (I think it was him) was right when he said that in reality, the freedom of his situation is more than he would have had in the real world. In other ways, I think their situation is more oppressive because they aren’t currently allowed to publicly date, they have to work an awful lot, there’s a lot of weird expectations on idols etc. 

I suspect BTS might end up staying together literally...forever. I mean, it was said the other day that they are one of the top two things South Korea has ever produced. The one thing that worries me is that if one (or several of them) are LGBT+...will they never come out because they don’t want to shame the band? Because the band’s legacy is just that big?

[vopekoo]

is it me or fanservice that plays into heterosexuality is harder to spot? fans dont give it a second thought because it's the norm?

by the way it can be still called fanservice even if the idols are straight. because who would want to discuss their ideal partner with strangers?

[vopekoo]

How did army turned "Jungkook called Seokjin yeobo" to "Jungkook called Seokjin yeobo because he was thinking about the person he shares his life with" ??

Why are they reaching so much and cant accept the fact? How many couples do you know that call other people darling? What is the excuse? Jin looks like the person JK is dating? Lol. Army are weird and so biased.

[vopekoo]

personally, even tho i have some preferences, i always remind myself any ships could be real too. everything is possible. nobody know more than the others.

[vopekoo]

also, it would be good if people stop thinking some ships are totally impossible or even be disgusted at the thought of said ships. it gives me bad vibes and already tell me if said ship is confirmed you're going to be very nasty to them.

[vopekoo]

a lot of people in this fandom aren't ready to welcome a lgbt member ... no matter what y'all try to say y'all arent ready and it shows.

[vopekoo]

the way i saw people trying to explain this all day, reaching left and right because they are scared of anything that sounds gay ...

[translation because bighit left out this part]

jungkook called seokjin 여보 yeobo, which means darling in korean. he said "yeobo, your solo song..." and then corrected himself to saying "hyung, your solo song...”.

i’m not okay...! jk just called jin „darling“ 😭🐹💕🐰

[vopekoo]

army always try to find a heterosexual explanation for everything.

they dont even notice how heteronormative and homophobic they look.

its upsetting.

[vopekoo]

The tragedy of Jang Bong Hwan

Thinking about it now, the biggest thing that irks me about Mr. Queen is that people are outright saying that the typical tropes of ‘Falling in love at first sight’ and ‘met as kids’ are the reason Cheoljong loves So Yong for the ending to make sense on why it’s actually happy. News flash: THOSE TROPES NEVER MATTERED.

Let me explain: 

Afficher davantage

[vopekoo]

Only a heterosexual would try to justify the horrible ending that mr queen had....like sis were we watching the same show? Cj fell for bh in everyway ! Bh character development was amazing and he fell for the cj too 😭

[vopekoo]

I hope one day army will have a discussion about why everytime they want to prove Namjoon is straight they always pull out a clip from a music video???

It's getting really weird. Y'all really cant imagine that man being anything other than straight and it's definitely problematic.

[vopekoo]

Hot Take:

Everytime Bong Hwan has feelings for the King or whenever he likes the "kisses" he blames So Yong, but in actuality those are just excuses he makes for himself because he actually likes it.

[vopekoo]

I love to think about Taehyung participating in drag competition. I would love to see current Taehyung doing it.

[vopekoo]

so they got afraid to end this in a BL way, so they went NO HOMO. right. Mr. Queen now feels to me like Call me by your name ending or any other western lgbt movie. I literally don’t know what hurts most, the last kissing scene between Cheol-jong and the Queen/Bong-hwan, in which cheoljong says we have plenty of time for this (!!!), the way the Queen/Bong-hwan stood in front of her king and took the shot, the scene where the king sees the Queen’s dictionary and says “i feel like i miss something” (this was so painful to watch), and finally the scene where Bong-hwan is in his own body and sees Cheoljong’s painting in the book and remembers the day they were being painted in the palace! and he was crying!

oh-my-god the feels!!!! the pain!!!!! how am i going to watch this drama again knowing they got seperated???? it’s not different than watching a lgbt movie with a bad ending! 

how is cheoljong going to live with his queen who, let’s be honest, it’s not Bong-hwan anymore but just So-yong and Cheoljong didn’t fall in love with her but with Bong-hwan!!! i mean, please!!! how is Bong-hwan going to live for the rest of his life remembering all this? 

how did they dare to tell us that Bong-hwan left some personality traits into So-yong’s body/brain/whatever? are they kidding with their own viewers? this was Bong-hwan’s story and they didn’t even finish it. they sent him back to his own body and didn’t even put a closure, nothing. and as for cheoljong he will never know the truth. i wonder if he ever questions why his queen isn’t the queen he fell in love with.

idk why but this felt like watching Game of thrones finale. Queen/Bong-hwan worked so hard with the King, for a purpose and now So-yong, a character we don’t even know much about, will take all the credit. i didn’t expect this ending and i’m really sad and disappointed. they could have had it all, but they wasted a massive opportunity to end this in a way that would made sense for the characters and that’s a shame. smh since last night, what a cowardice!

[vopekoo]

soft koobi 💛💜