#About how reintegration works and how the characters think about it

[nobodysdaydreams]

I have a theory about why Petey’s reintegration failed, what it will take for someone to properly reintegrate, and how this could complicate the endings they choose to give to Helly, Mark, and Gemma.

Haven't severance posted in a while, but I had to get this off my chest, because it fascinates me. Sorry in advance for a ridiculously long post/ramble.

I've been thinking a lot about Petey's reintegration and why it failed, and honestly I think the heart of it is the answer to the question: are the innies and outties two separate people, or the same person? Because I've seen arguments for both perspectives on Tumblr as well as third positions that say it's "kind of both/complicated", and all of them make compelling cases, but there's other aspects of the innie and outtie relationship that I don't think are talked about enough, and they could have very strong implications for how reintegration is going to affect our characters.

Let's start by using Petey as an example. Part of his reintegration problem was the timeline in his mind. Severance felt as far away as his fifth birthday, which makes sense if you take the perspective that the innies and outties are two people. This way of thinking certainly helps Lumon dehumanize innies as the “other” and pits the innies and outties against each other and appears to be what's happening from the viewers perspectives, as innies and outties disagree with each other and sometimes take steps to undermine each other.

But there's interesting implications when you reexamine the show's stated science behind it. While it seems like the innies are their "own separate people" that happen to share a body, it's notable that the innies aren’t created as a duplicate or other consciousness, not exactly. If that was the case, then the independent consciousnesses could theoretically be active in the same body at the same time, each with their own thoughts and unable to access each other's memories and experiences (though once aware at the same time, they would make memories and experiences together, much like a split brain patient). But thus far, as the science has been explained to us in the show, what severance does has nothing to do with duplicating or dividing consciousness in the brain, but memories, and that's an aspect of the procedure that could easily haunt many characters later and has interesting implications for what a successful reintegration could eventually look like if they decided to become "one person".

Let's take Mark, for example. Think of the moment he wakes up on the table. To Mark S, that's when "his life" begins, but "his life" is really just Mark Scout + amnesia at that point. His memories are there, but something is blocking his access to them, and when he goes up the elevator, his memories return, but now with something blocking access to other memories. So while an unsuccessfully reintegrated timeline might look the way Petey's did, with waking up on table = fifth birthday and he sees them as two separate lives he lived, a successfully reintegrated timeline for a character might look something like this:

"I was depressed so I took a job at Lumon, agreed to severance, and went down the elevator. Once down the elevator, I forgot everything, so I started working, and I hated my job. Then I went up the elevator. Once up the elevator, I forgot the whole work day, but remembered everything else, so I when home I made these decisions, which lead me back down the elevator. Once there, I forgot everything again, but remembered the day before. However, since I forgot, (for example) that I was married, I started falling in love with this person, or since I forgot that I have these values/fears/ideals, I did this action when I normally wouldn't. Then I went up the elevator and forgot the whole work day again, but remembered everything else...."

And it just continues like that. One perfectly integrated timeline for one person because the only thing separated was their memories. Sure, characters made different choices with access to different memories, but people make different decisions with different amounts of information, like stories where a character gets amnesia and acts different as a result because for better or worse, key memories are gone, but that doesn't make them "not them". The amnesia is part of their story arc, and the changes in the character are obvious, but I’m in multiple fandoms with that storyline, and we don't look at them and necessarily think "boom! It's a new person now, the old one died" and when/if the memories come back, it's not like there's suddenly two people now, even if the character might feel conflicted due to their new experiences when they couldn’t remember their previous life. It's just that unlike most amnesia stories where it happens in one big accident and characters forget one set of information they knew, the characters in severance are in a constant back and forth of "I forget this but I remember that, I forgot these memories, but I have these ones back now" and both innies/outties are selective amnesiacs.

This leads back to a debate that lies at the heart of severance the show: are these two different people or the same person? And while the "two people" answer is to Lumon's benefit (a house divided can't stand against them) and "one person" seems to be suggested if my theory about the science/process involved in a successful reintegration is correct, I think the answer is actually way more complicated and going to depend on the individuals themselves. Theoretically speaking, yes, all severance does is isolate and compartmentalize one person's memories (which we know because it's not like Helena and Helly R. can be awake and aware at the same time in the same body while simultaneously not accessing each other's memories or reintegrating into one person, at least that we know so far), thus implying that all the severed are really just one person with "spatially isolated memories" as the show says. But if a successful reintegration, as I'm theorizing, depends on accepting that reality, then some characters might not be able to do that and choose to continue living their lives as if they are two separate people who happen to take turns using the same body.

I think this will be hard for the outties and innies for a variety of reasons, and one general reason is that from the way Mark Scout and Helena speak to their innies, it's clear they don't really see them as people or a part of themselves at all. Their bodies aren't "Mark S. and Helly R.'s bodies" they are Mark Scout and Helena Eagan's bodies, and while Mark Scout and Helena Eagan's decisions lead to partial occupation of their bodies (and by extension, lives) by Mark S. and Helly R., from their perspective, they still have every right to evict them. From the outtie’s perspective, innies are just using/being loaned bodies and lives that don’t belong to them. Once the outties decide they don’t want their innie anymore, then it’s goodbye. Unpleasant for the innies of course, but what are they going to do? This isn’t their body or their life? Even if the outties do see the innies as people, they still don't see them as equal people with an equal right to the body they inhabit, and they certainly don't see the innies as part of themselves rather than separate people/parasites, and since I hypothesize accepting themselves as one might be what is needed for a successful reintegration, that’s gonna be a problem. And of course, the more hostile the outties are to their innies, the more the innies don't want to accept the outties are part of themselves either, because "hey, I get this is your body and your life and all, but uh...you did create me and put me in here, okay? So pardon me for wanting to live and be a person. You see me as an enemy, but I'm a enemy you made! Remember that? Remember you putting me in "your body"? Maybe you could be a little nicer?"

Of course as I said before, all this innie/outtie hostility only serves Lumon. The more they fight, the more divided they are, the most powerful Lumon becomes. Less memories per person at any time means less knowledge per person at any time. But even if an outtie and innie were to reach an understanding, that alone does not a successfully reintegration make. They wouldn't just need to get along as two separate people, if my theory is right, they need to accept (or decide if you'd prefer to think of it like that) that they're one person. For some characters, I think this will be easy, and a stitched together timeline where you accept yourselves as one person seems like the perfect solution. Take Dylan G. for example. He gets new friends, his wife, his kids and memories of being awesome and falling back in love. Who wouldn't want that? He better get reintegrated and live his best life.

But then of course, we have Helly R./Helena, Mark S./Mark Scout, and Gemma/Ms. Casey, which is a way more complicated situation. Personally, I do not care who "ends up" with who, though I do humbly think that the situation is far less simplistic than it often gets made out to be in terms of "oh but these two HAVE to end up together if reintegrated/severed", and will be talking about it, as this does factor into the decisions the characters might end up making.

For example, and this might be the world's most unpopular opinion, but I do not think reintegration = Mark automatically choosing either woman over the other, Gemma or Mark hating Helly, or even either woman insisting Mark should obviously be with them. Let's start with Mark. What would reintegration mean for him? What would his "stitched together timeline" look like? Well, it's the story about him getting severed because of the pain of losing his wife, and spending two years getting over her, then going to work, forgetting about that, falling in love with someone new, then going back up, forgetting that again, but mourning his wife some more and trying to maybe date someone else but it goes nowhere, then he goes back down, forgets all that, and continues the romance with his coworker, goes back up, finally learns his wife is alive after two years and feels that hope, then goes back down, forgets that, and continues the romance again, etc. Overall, when put together, it's the story of a guy who sometimes forgot he had a wife, so he fell in love with a coworker after she died, only to discover his wife is alive again. None of that necessarily means he will choose one woman over the other. He and Gemma have history and they clearly care about each other, but they were also separated for a long time and it’s gonna take a while to see if they can fall back in their rhythm or if that’s even possible. Mark and Helly have a more recent relationship, but her outtie also knew his wife was being tortured at Lumon and didn’t tell him. Didn’t even act sorry about an innocent woman being tortured and killed. She also slept with Mark’s innie under false pretenses. Even if she was raised that way it still might be (understandably) hard for Mark to see past that. But none of these points might even matter at all because we have no idea how Gemma and Helly being reintegrated or not reintegrated will impact Mark's decision even if he himself is successfully reintegrated.

Take Gemma for example. You might think "Well, she's Mark's wife. She believed he would come for her, she waited years for him, she never lost hope in him, and Helly is literally Helena Eagan, who knew she was down there and did nothing. Of course Gemma is not gonna understand or care about their relationship and insist that Mark is her husband and should be with her!" And maybe that's true for Gemma. But consider what a reintegrated timeline would look like for her. Ms. Casey said the best part of her existence was "watching Helly". Seeing Mark, who was kind to her and concerned for her, fall in love. It's like when you have two friends that you ship really hard and are so happy when they end up together but in this case, uh-oh! Now you suddenly remember that actually one of them is your husband, which you periodically kept forgetting ever time you went up that dang elevator, which introduces complicated feelings, but I don't think a reintegrated Gemma would look at Mark and Helly together and be like "ew. now where did this come from?" she knows where it came from, she was there,m. Her story is a back and forth between "My husband is going to save me. He loves me and would never give up on me.” and "the best part of my existence is seeing these two together".

Then we have Helly. And her story is more difficult to stich together because we don't have all of Helena's backstory. But we know that Helena, despite having feelings for Mark, did make some pretty big missteps. Look, maybe she has secretly been working against her father and family this whole time. We don't know. But what we do know is that even if that is the case, she still slept with Mark under false pretenses and made insensitive comments about his wife knowing that she was being tortured daily, and probably has done some other shady stuff. I'm sure she did it under pressure/the influence of her father and suffered too, and I don't want to discount that, but she still did it. And Helly is not going to be happy about that, and even less happy to remember "oh yeah, when I went up the elevator and temporarily forgot my life down here, but suddenly remembered my whole crazy upbringing, that was me that did those things to the man I love and got weirdly jealous of myself like a crazy person." I could see her stepping aside so Mark and Gemma can be together because she realizes/remembers her actions and is horrified by them, but I can also see her really wanting to make their relationship work since Mark is the one thing both her and Helena seem to agree on and this is the one thing they both seem to really want. Her story is a weird back and forth between "I'm going to destroy this company" to "forget all that, we're back to either running the company or destroying it from the inside depending on what the writers do here" and back to forgetting all that again and going back to destroying Lumon with Mark. So, yeah, until we know a little more about Helena, it's hard to say what a reintegration with her would look like, but I think that "she'd realize the error of her wicked ways and stand aside so Mark and Gemma could be together, what happened between Helly and Mark doesn’t matter at all" and "no, she deserves happiness, and her and Mark belong together just forget about the complications" are not guarantees.

So in summary, where does that leave our trio? The way I see it, we have two options main options here. Option 1, which I've discussed above is everybody reintegrates. Their timelines are stitched together, and Gemma/Casey, Helena/Helly, and Mark/uh...Mark, remember everything, and all the complicated feelings, pains, self-hatred, and betrayal that comes with it, and then...they work it out. They talk through their feelings like adults. They can't change what happened, but it is what it is, and now the three of them remember everything. Their whole story. Hopefully a very qualified therapist is involved, and yes, the most likely scenario is multiple people getting their feelings hurt if not all of them, but life is messy and complicated, and sometimes this is what happens. Is it fair to everyone? No. Is this a bittersweet ending? For sure. But on the bright side, now they can talk it out. Now they have their lives back, their full, complete lives. Now they're all working on the same side as their whole selves, no separated or compartmentalized memories. That at least is something, something that could be a good place of common ground.

Then there's option 2: one or both of the innies/outties can't or won’t accept or decide that they're the same people, so they can't reintegrate. As much as the severance show tells us "hey we just separated and isolated your memories, not your consciousness" and "It's hard to tell which "person" you are (or rather, which set of memories you have access to at a given time)", that's not what we see or what the characters see. And let's face it. If someone told you that you had another life where you fell in love with someone other than your current partner, or watched, heck, even rooted for them, to fall for someone else, or tortured and hurt your current partner and someone else who you consider a friend, would you want to remember that? And even if one character can reintegrate, a lot of their ability to move forward and make decisions about their future depends if the other two are also reintegrating or not because of how entangled their lives are now. Living as separate people might be what's easiest, whether that's what's "actually happening" during severance or not. It's giving up half a life, but if the characters decide the stitched together life isn't the one they want to remember, but also won’t kill each other to take over their life, then what else are they to do? Ironically, I see this ending just as bittersweet as the other one. I imagine at a certain time every year, Helena drives to that cabin in the woods. Mark and Gemma Scout arrive too, separate car. They just sort of look at each other, acknowledge each other. Helena knows outtie Mark is the person who chose Gemma over her, that her innie gets a version Mark and she doesn't, but at least she has control of the company now. At least she's free from her father. And of course, to Outtie Mark and Gemma, Helena is the person who knowingly let them be tortured and tried to make a move on Mark knowing what her father's company was doing to his supposedly dead wife. Sure, she turned it around and helped them, but that still happened. And all of them know what's going to happen when they walk into the cabin. Mark and Helly are going to be together, and Mark is disgusted by the fact that a version of him fell in love with the woman who tortured his wife even though he supposes "technically" it's not her, and Helena hates that it's Helly getting that romance, and not her, and Gemma is unhappy, because how would you feel if your partner was in this situation, and you were about to be turned into someone who thought that your husband and the lady who knew you were being tortured in her dad’s basement looked cute together?

But what can they do? Refuse to return to the cabin? Selectively delete their bundles of severed memories, removing them like a brain tumor? They could. But deep down, they know they can't. Even Gemma, whose innie was made through zero fault or consent of her own, can't bring herself to condemn an innocent and kind person to just "stop existing", even if she knows that "person" is just "memories she forgot + forgetting her current memories". So they go inside. And just like that, Helly R., Mark S., and Ms. Casey are back. They can't leave the cabin, though they might want to. Their world and existence are small. But it's there's, and they don't have to share it with their outties. They don't have to work for Lumon. They can be happy. And if they need to know about anyone else or anything else going on outside, they can gather on the balcony and have someone step out to activate their outtie to talk to the other two. But I feel like they might try to avoid that, if they can. Perhaps a conversation between Outtie Mark and Helly so he can see and understand how a version of himself could fall in love with her and verify that Ms. Casey is happy with her situation. But that might be it. And then, when the time is up, they leave. They don't know if they'll be back, but they hope so. Mark and Helly hug one last time, before exiting through separate doors as Mark leaves with Ms. Casey. Then they all go outside, get back in their cars, and drive away, as if the time just disappeared. They don't remember what happened in the cabin. They don't want to remember. Maybe that was them, maybe it was always them. But it's easier to act like they aren't the same person, for them and their innies. So that's how they act. Forever.

Anywayyyy... I'm not saying that this is necessarily where the show is going, but it's my theory about what makes for a successful reintegration, and you don't have to agree with it or like it, but I hope someone finds in narratively compelling. And if you're reading this and hate both these options because it ruins your beautiful ship, please know that I hope your ship works out, and you are happy. I have no control over that, and obviously that hope can't work for everyone since what everyone wants seems to contradict each other (an ironically perfect metaphor for our characters), but either way, at least we'll have fanfic.

[failchild]

i can write so much more about why i think severance S2 isn't as strong or enjoyable as S1, but i could truly go on forever so i've organized my thoughts into three categories: lack of inter/departmental connection, dropped storylines, and how the world feels much smaller (1.2k words under the cut)

lack of inter/departmental connection

a significant theme of the S2 finale is the solidarity between different severed departments. MDR, mammalians nurturable, and the marching band department become impromptu allies against lumon management. innie mark is hesitant to save gemma not just because he might cease to exist, but so might the entire severed department. so why wasn't this a theme throughout the whole season?

episode 3 was building up to this: mark and "helly" made contact with mammalians nurturable, and irving visited O&D to share a nice moment with felicia. but that interdepartmental connection is completely dropped until the the finale, seven episodes later.

innie mark's concern for all severed workers rings a bit hollow when he doesn't seem to care about the three innies he got terminated in episode 1, and hasn't thought about irving at all. (i know ignoring grief is mark's whole thing, but he's known irving his whole life! there's not even a single moment of him acknowledging irving after his firing.) like, okay, mark said innie rights! does he really demonstrate that throughout the season, though?

EDIT: oh my god, miss casey—innie mark willingly killed miss casey. if he was truly so concerned about every innie, shouldn't he have been conflicted about leading her to her death? the person he said "we're people, not parts of people" to? the person he said "no one gets to just turn you off" to? (mark! you just turned her off!)

what stands out more is the lack of connection within MDR itself: once irving's gone, MDR just doesn't seem to care about each other. their tight-knit friendship and "we're in this together" dynamic is supplanted by romance. sure, mark and helly love each other now—why does that have to come at the cost of their friendship with dylan? do they just not care that he's been disappearing for half the work day? in the S2 finale, it's a great character moment for dylan when he comes to the rescue, but would helly and mark do the same for him? they didn't seem to notice or care that he was gone for mark's completion of cold harbor.

dropped storylines and dramatic twists that lead nowhere

(i know how television works, i know that plotlines that begin in one season can get resolved in another. okay. now that's out of the way)

remember how bold of a decision it was to have mark reintegrate in episode 3? the building of tension, reghabi asking an increasingly confused mark basic questions ("what season is it?" "you mean, what quarter?"), mark waking up on the severed floor table, and the triumphant soundtrack that follows? none of that seems to matter now: reghabi is out of the picture and mark doesn't get reintegration sickness or hallucinations anymore. reghabi kept warning mark to not move his head—then he fell to the ground and slammed his head, and was beaten in the head by drummond. is his brain okay? did the reintegration process even happen? did i dream this plotline? where am i?

what did the undercover helena plot accomplish? okay, so it was crazy when irving revealed that helena was impersonating helly. what exactly were the consequences of this? besides irving getting fired, there were barely any ripple effects for this seemingly momentous betrayal—mark was uncomfortable for two episodes, and helly was upset for, like, ten minutes tops. it's a fun plot twist for sure, but it doesn't seem to truly affect the character it should matter most to, and helly isn't given the time to wrestle with the fact that she's an eagan (royalty! a god!) and found out mere hours ago. we get to know helena a bit, i guess, but she was already compelling when she was just a face on a TV screen, telling helly that she wasn't a person.

speaking of irving's firing, this was the perfect setup for learning more about his outie, but we learn nothing. we have the same questions as we did in S1: who's he working with? what's his motivation to infiltrate lumon? why does he know about the elevator to the testing floor? irving is just as much of a mystery as he was in S1—and now we don't know if we'll ever see him again and get answers to those crucial character questions.

milchick has undoubtedly the best character arc this season. in episode 9 he finally snaps at upper management and can barely process what it means when outie mark tells him, "work's just work". i don't think milchick would turn his back on lumon entirely, that wouldn't be realistic, but all his character moments throughout the season seemed to be culminating to him realizing that, yeah, work is just work, it's not that serious. it makes sense that he would try his hardest to escape the bathroom, then get greeted by an innie uprising—but that would have also happened to a S1 milchick. after the kier animatronic microaggressions and all the shit he has to do to prepare for cold harbor's completion, would he really try to escape the bathroom that hard? or would he be having a midlife crisis, staring himself down in a mirror? i'm genuinely not sure.

i know i'm in the minority here but i loved ricken in S1—he and his strange followers bring an earnestness and sense of humor that made the show feel unique in how it juggled wildly different tones. ricken was also crucial to the innie story, and helped innie mark realize his potential as a human being. but besides appearing in a single flashback during the gemma episode, ricken's been completely absent since episode 3. what happened to his lumon sellout arc? what does he think his wife, who he has a newborn baby with, is doing? did he die in a private yacht explosion?

we still don't know what cold harbor is, right? we know that each file MDR completes is another room for gemma, but what's cold harbor specifically, and why would it kill her? she starts to disassemble a crib without feeling negative emotions—how is that any different from any other innie? is the point to sever away specific trauma? is that really it? and again, why would that kill her?

the world feels much smaller

the world outside of lumon is absent in S2. S1 had ricken and his weird friends, mark going on dates, back alley concerts, anti-severance protests, snippets of the news—there was life outside of lumon! S2 leaves that all behind to tighten focus on lumon and the people directly involved in the company, which makes the story very insular.

characters are so vitally important now: helly is an eagan, mark is the only one who can finish cold harbor and cold harbor is The Most Important Thing In The World We Have To Complete It Now, everything MDR does is because of gemma, and cobel invented severance. everyone else feels supplemental—people like irving and ricken can be easily discarded. the science fiction aspects, which were bizarre and unknowable in S1, are now directly personal to everyone. it's like milchick lying about the tallest waterfall in the world: it just makes everything seem smaller.

this also muddies S1's central themes and satire of the corporate world. mark isn't just another cog in the machine anymore, he's the most important guy (they fired and rehired a bunch of people, just for him!). the work isn't mysterious anymore, we know exactly what they're doing. mark being an ordinary guy who goes to an office job he doesn't really understand was the point of the corporate satire. severance just isn't interested in that anymore, which i guess is understandable; the show can grow into something different. but using a sci-fi concept to comment on office culture and the different personas we inhabit for work was so clever and special, and now they're just exploring well-trodden ground like identity and what it means to be human. sci-fi has already done that one, guys! many times!

again, i can say a lot more but i think this sums up my main thoughts. and i generally liked each episode individually, but when i look at the season as a whole it just doesn't cohere nearly as well as S1 did.

[666thtoolofhell]

That Kingdon slow burn is coming 😭😭😭 all I think it’ll take for Patrick and Taylor to get on board is Langdon separating or divorcing cause wdym Taylor says she thinks Mel will probably be one of the only people not judging him 😭

I just listened to the whole interview and here are some bits that weren't transcribed to the written version:

The reaching up and tapping of the door header on their way to STEMI wasn't in the script - it was all Patrick and Taylor. Patrick would always do it and Taylor thought it was funny and "boy-ish" and copied him to tease him. She didn't even think they'd keep it in the actual episode.

Apparently all the staff will be behaving as if nothing out of the ordinary happened and one of them isn't suddenly not there anymore, just going about things as normal without even touching the subject and sidestepping the Langdon-shaped hole in the room, and Mel will be surprised at not seeing him and then very confused about the whole thing. (Until the reason why is eventually explained to her, I assume. Since she won't be judging him upon his return she'll have to be in the know regarding the basics by then, no?)

Mel will be genuinely excited when Langdon comes back next season, very much like she was when she saw him again after he'd been - unbeknownst to her - fired and away from the ED for a short while. (Imagine if the joy and enthusiasm were to be proportional? If she was that elated after he'd been gone for an hour, how would she react after ten months? Fic writers, you know what to do.)

That man needs to be at the very least separated and in talks of divorce if not already signing those papers by July 4th. We won't survive the slowly burning colleagues to friends to lovers wrapped in soulmatism these two are bringing to the table. [wishful thinking]

I have no real expectations except for the powers that be to continue to focus - as much as possible with the time allotted to them as characters and as a duo - on their wonderful bond and dynamic, still partnering them up for cases as well as for breaks and significant downtime moments, letting their wholesome relationship progress further, growing and flourishing as naturally as it did during the first season.

Since Langdon is going to return fully believing he's failed her and that he's no longer deserving of her trust I foresee Mel disabusing him of that silly notion so thoroughly and so fast he won't know what hit him. Mel treating him the same, without disappointment or betrayal or pity in her eyes, still wanting to work closely with and learn from him? Being supportive and there if and when he needs someone? Just being unapologetically herself in all the ways that immediately drew him to her in the first place? That is going to be a huge help and relief for him, I think, and ease his reintegration into their workplace and team if only a little bit.

I'm hoping their friendship solidifies as something that isn't exclusive to the hospital and that we'll get a teeny tiny blink-and-you'll-miss-it hint that it'll extend into their personal lives. Something like Mel telling Langdon more about Becca and their parents; or him telling her about Abby, the dog, the kids. Sharing and commiserating. Getting to know each other better. Finding only acceptance and understanding. That'd be nice.

Baby steps.

[jesterkoops]

There's a prevalent assumption that the point of reintegration is that i!Mark will remember Gemma and start feeling o!Mark's love for her and o!Mark will remember Helly and start feeling i!Mark's love for her, because both relationships are equally valid and wonderful and so neither will lose/win over the other.

IMO, this is line of reasoning suffers from a similar fallacy as the one I wrote about here after 2x07. What matters for the story isn't our perspective but the characters'. This isn't a story about how equally valid and wonderful two relationships are IN OUR EYES. This is a story about a guy who made the decision to sever himself for emotional convenience, created a new consciousness who was specifically designed not to remember his own wife and ended up falling for someone else, and IN HIS EYES this consciousness' life and relationship are NOT AT ALL EQUAL to his own.

o!Mark expected i!Mark to sacrifice his relationship with Helly because, in his eyes, is worth literally a thousand times less than his marriage with Gemma. o!Mark acted as if reintegration would mean nothing more than gifting i!Mark with his wonderful life and wife, making him sit in the cuck chair, while he gets on with his life, and presumed that i!Mark would be simply grateful for that. Note how it was only i!Mark that was concerned about how reintegrating might work and affect his personhood. o!Mark either didn't care, didn't think about it, or assumed that it would be just some minor inconvenience that would not really affect his life in the long run.

So my guess is that reintegration will likely serve the purpose of subverting o!Mark's expectations and forcing him to realise that i!Mark's life and relationship is as valid as his own, more than the Marks each learning to love the other's woman through each other's memories. Also because i!Mark never questioned or devalued o!Mark's relationship with Gemma, he just didn't feel those feelings. He doesn't have anything to "learn" there, and he should not be "punished" for not having feelings for a woman he was created not to remember. Plus, the fact that i!Mark feels nothing for Gemma/Ms Casey and was only trying to save her as a duty to his outie and because it was the right thing to do is a cardinal point around which the entirety of this season and especially the finale was built around. To have i!Mark now start to catch feels for Gemma and maybe question his decision to stay on the severed floor would retroactively negate all that and validate o!Mark's perspective.

So I think that if there are any such flashes, it will be o!Mark who starts to have flashes and catch feels for Helly and he will hate it and resist it with all his might. Or he will glitch onto the severed floor and have to be faced with the life he created down there, and start to really think about the innies's worth.

Maybe by the end of reintegration, o!Mark will have undergone enough character development where the two of them will indeed even out, but I think that for a good chunk of the upcoming story reintegration will serve the purpose of making o!Mark's life a tribulation. To make him realise that this other consciousness is not something he can just park away in a corner of his mind whenever he's not convenient or he no longer needs him. And that the choices he made to forget his wife ever existed for 8 hours a day, shove her ashes and belonging in a basement, and spend most of the rest of the time drunk so he doesn't think about her, will not be without repercussions.

[jessaerys]

the critiques of the severance finale wrt essentially (i)markhelly vs (o)markgemma keep hitting weird and ringing misplaced. to me. and i'm trying to articulate why and it's like. i think that the mark (pun not intended) of a valid racial critique is being missed by positing "gets chosen by mark" as the measuring stick that decides if the finale was Good or Bad.

my good faith take is that severance is ultimately working towards that final nirvana of synthesis, with dylanists having been framed as the more emotionally fulfilling, more fair, more peaceful path towards freedom vs the necessary but violent rebellion of mark and helly, both hellyists (and i don't think severance wants us to think they are in the wrong - helena and (o)mark are far more abusive to their innies than (o)dylan ever was. they have dug their heels in and refuse to relinquish their control over their subjugated selves, as opposed to (o)dylan. which is a far more common and expected reaction from those in power.) BUT. but. mark is not yet reintegrated. a complete mark reintegration is going to be an extremely momentous event upon which everything will revolve, when it happens. we are not at a point within the narrative where we can consider mark a single character (yet).

(i)mark has always been the main character. the arc of the show has always been about the innies fighting to first discover and then secure their personhood. severance is a rebellion storyline, an oppression allegory. like christ alive, we got the *stands on a table* we are many, they are few! speech.

(i)mark doesn't know that he (he! the mark synthesis! the mark final form!) loves gemma. i don't care about (i)mark and helly as a ship, i don't care to think about them in Scenarios or AUs or what have you. BUT i care about mark and helly as the vehicle through which severance explores and signifies choice and humanity. i find that deeply moving - that last moment of (innie!) mark chosing himself as an entity separate from (o)mark, chosing even a handful of minutes more of life and love and independence from the powers that be - it's a triumph. the show was always going to lead us here. lumon may or may not try to kill (o)mark, but there's (in the innies minds, at that moment) not a universe where (i)mark and helly get to live. they are in a doomed timeline. they have nothing, not even their flesh belong to them. they are so suffocatingly denied or personhood that to steal even one more moment together they must kidnap their own bodies.

THAT SAID.

that said. i have talked about how annoyed i am that gemma's motivation was "ohh woman can't have baby". i think that writing choice was lazy. believable, sure, and it makes sense within the narrative, but i hate it. it's reductive, it's objectifying. i wish they had given gemma more life beyond "marks dead wife", i wish we had gotten to know her as a person as complex and moody as mark scout.

i am also tired of allegories for oppression being filled with white faces.

the racial problem in the helly/mark/gemma dynamic exists within what i can only think to call the infrastructure of showmaking. with diversity being applied as a coat of paint to the outer edges of a cast, rather than roles being written for non-white people, or letting main characters be non-white. there's no reason why gemma couldn't be white and helly asian, or mark, or all of them, except racism in casting.

ON THE OTHER HAND.

i try not to judge shows before the story is completed. to let a non-white character end a story unhappy or in tragedy might often be an afterthought of racism in storytelling but it doesn't have to be. we have been shown that severance can handle a complex racial narrative with milchick. i am hoping that the same will happen with gemma, either because of critiques currently being made or because they have always planned to address her racial identity in relation to both mark, helly, and lumon, but we haven't gotten there yet.

or they might not.

they might have filled their talking-about-race quota, and the intersection of racism and misogyny might be a tragic, infuriating blind spot in the severance writers room. idk man, maybe we just need to give the writers the benefit of the doubt. only time will tell. and if they fuck it up we will still have our hammers next season

[markhellyna]

. ݁₊ ⊹ markhellyna’s fav markhellyna fics ⊹ ₊ ݁.

making this as a way to keep track of & share my fav fics i’ve come across! will continue to update as i read more lol so consider this a work in progress. if you also read & enjoy any of these make sure to leave kudos and a comment on them to show the authors some love!

⤏ Two Minds by PinkThing420

summary: canon divergent au. helena eagan has been undercover as helly r for a few months post-OTC, but decides to let helly live again as long as she doesn’t blow helena’s cover. helena begins to develop confusing feelings towards mark and lumon as a whole.

⤏ 5 Times Helly Asked Mark to Reintegrate (And 1 Time She Didn’t) by five_rat_lore

summary: au where lumon is shut down and all severed ex-employees are offered the reintegration process. a reintegrated helly tries to convince mark to reintegrate too. angsty, sweet, and really hot. bonus points for markhellyna age gap mention and a little bit of professor/student roleplay.

⤏ old haunt by killingcve

summary: mark is experiencing reintegration sickness and hallucinates helly showing up at his house…or does he? dubcon enjoyers rejoice!

⤏ The Summoning by five_rat_lore

summary: markhelly body swap smut

⤏ sweetheart. by pearlofthesea

summary: mark comforts helly immediately after she’s woken up at woe’s hollow.

⤏ brief hold, please by floatingonthelehigh

summary: mark notices a hickey on helly’s neck as she comes into work. she asks him for a new one.

⤏ disparate kinds by BanningL

summary: reintegrated mark & hellyna smut, hellyna is having a bad day so mark comforts her

⤏ besides delaware by audries

summary: mark & helly spend a weekend together on the severed floor directly after the events of the finale. this one made me cry lol

⤏ axis & allies by killingcve

summary: college au. professor mark & TA hellyna, im so obsessed with where this one is going

⤏ say yes to heaven by BanningL

summary: au, professor mark & grad student helena smut ft age difference + helena’s first time

⤏ sick as it sounds by brandnewtrack

summary: au, markhelena as a romcom - i cant get enough of this writing style! they have helena’s characterization down pat. the banter is too good and the smut is 😮‍💨😮‍💨

⤏ deferred compensation by catinhat

summary: post-reintegration markhelena. this one hit me like a truck. really beautiful writing, one of my favorite studies of what reintegrated hellyna would be like. lots of TWs here so check tags before reading.

⤏ Hey There, You On The Table by five_rat_lore

summary: this whole fic series is so hot but i especially love the setting of this one! mark tells helly how to get herself off from the side closet of the conference room she first woke up in.

⤏ blessed are the broken by hellynascout

summary: au where helena keeps going back to church…to see priest mark scout

⤏ a helping hand by eclipsj

summary: helly can’t come so mark helps her out

⤏ Freaky Friday by PinkThing420

summary: PinkThing420 my beloved!! after reghabi floods mark’s chip, he wakes up in the elevator on the severed floor. really hot omarkhelly smut

⤏ tame your tempers, soothe your soul by IAmTheNightman98

summary: the four tempers as the four different markhellyna pairings

⤏ Office Hours by Dogbinary

summary: this is THEEEEEEE markhelena professor/student au for me. dogbinary turn this into a miniseries and you will be reincarnated as a lotus flower this is officially multichap now 🫳🪷

⤏ the hunger that wears her face by hellynascout

summary: post s2 finale. mark got his happy ending. he’s reintegrated and has gemma back, so why can’t stop thinking about hellyna? this one is sooo tasty. mark’s guilt and obsession with hellyna…oof

⤏ Miss Eagan by outsidehelly

summary: reverse age gap au. mark scout is helena eagan’s hot new intern, just imagining young twink adam here… im sweating. dubcon and cheating enjoyers rejoice!!!

⤏ Party 4 u series by cypressdrive

summary: really hot markhelly smut that’s also incredibly sweet and in character. helly wears mark’s tie and he calls her good boy 😵‍💫

⤏ i’m a dog, i’m a mutt by jam (discojams)

summary: DID SOMEBODY SAY OMARKHELLY DUBCON

⤏ on borrowed time by Red_Cardinal_Wins

summary: mark scout finally has his wife and his life back, but every friday he has to return to the severed cabin with helena so that their innies can still see each other. mark got everything he wanted, but seeing helena every week, as well as the messages his innie leaves for him on the camcorder, are making him question whether he still fits within the life he had with gemma.

⤏ secretary by jam (discojams)

summary: intern mark scout is selected to be lumon executive helena eagan’s new assistant, mark is eager to please. there is also some markpetey in here as well ty jamsus

[oncelerfucker]

Yes autonomy is a major theme in Severance. Yes there was a bold and beautiful statement about the autonomy of the innies, Mark S. in particular, at the end of season two. Yes it makes complete sense for Mark S. to have made the choices he did.

And also — trauma and healing from it (or a lack of healing from it) is also a major theme in Severance.

It's very common to view yourself as disconnected from yourself after trauma. Who you were before and who you are after are two "different" people. As such, a huge part of healing from trauma can be working towards seeing yourself as "whole" again. That's not to say that trauma makes one "incomplete" but that for some people beginning to recognize the "ugly" parts of their emotions as part of themself wrt healing from trauma is related to self compassion, forgiveness, and acceptance.

Which I think lends itself to the fact that innies and outies are the same person in the sense that their personalities and emotional patterns shine through regardless of their memories. Because of that I think the way they are treated by each other (innie vs outie) is more reflective of how the characters view themselves than anything else.

For example: Dylan hates himself, but he wants to like himself. He wants to be better, he just doesn't know how (thinking about how it's very heavily implied he has ADHD or another kind of neurodivergence that contributes to the way he struggles). Dylan is uncomfortable with and self conscious about his disregulation. He idealizes the parts of him that he wants to be more like, that he wants to strive for. Of course wanting to believe a part of him that he'll never fully meet is cool is something that is true for himself regardless of if he's at home or at Lumon — he desperately wants to like himself and find something he is good at. That's why he is angry but understanding to himself regarding Gretchen. That's why he gives himself autonomy.

Dylan sees himself and goes "That's a man I may not know, but I recognize him" because he recognizes his emotions and knows who he is despite the ways he may hate it.

Mark hates himself, but he fundamentally doesn't want to change. Mark does not see himself as autonomous because for the last several years he's been the guy that a bad thing happened to who can't confront it. Grief can cause you to strip your autonomy from yourself in real life, the severance procedure is just an extremely literal way of going about it. Mark is comfortable in his suffering. He's stuck in bargaining and depression. He is a man who lives comfortably in his depression hole and only changes his tune when it is theoretically possible to get his old life back. Of course neither part of himself sees the other as an equal — he hates that guy and constantly belittles himself because of his grief. He already doesn't see himself as autonomous so why would he ever view himself that way in any other context?

Mark sees himself and goes "That's a man I refuse to know and refuse to recognize" because he cannot bring himself to recognize his own emotions and understand himself in his emotional complexities.

For some the only way to heal from your traumas is to find a compassionate lense to look at and understand yourself through.

Dylan is beginning to do that without even working towards reintegration.

Mark has completely rejected that despite forcing himself into reintegration. Mark — innie and outie — will continue to lose narratively for as long as he cannot view himself with empathy.

[jollyparaphernalia]

I like your kingswap AU, but some part of me can't help but feel like something's been lost in the blorbofication of our beloved monarch. I think it'd be interesting to see some of his more villainous traits get reintegrated over time as he gets further into the loops.

His ability to be casually cruel towards others if they endanger his goals/those he wants to protect, his disregarding of other people's feelings or autonomy if he thinks he knows better.

Could be fun to explore!

Oh, this is intentional! I very specifically wanted to put Clovis' 'best foot' forward (or at least the funniest one with him being an anxious dog) as I yap about this AU stuff. I think it's really important to highlight the best/more positive parts to the guy, as a reflection back to the King. Think of it...like the conversation about the Emotion keys in ISAT, and the conversation about how strong emotions are ultimately temporary - both good feelings, and the worst ones. I don't think the King is entirely his bad points, if that makes sense? Yeah he's VERY capable of being monstrous, yet he also accepts the flower and goes 'hell yeah, best victor wins, lets make this a fight worth remembering'. So, with Clovis, while he's technically not the actual King, i'm being very intentional with how I want to show him off, if that makes sense? Highlighting some aspects and downplaying some. Like, sure, Clovis isn't ACTUALLY the ISAT King but goddamnit if i'm not intentional with my AU and get the character themes and voice correct and keep what made them appealing I Will Die.

But you make a fantastic point, so I'll share some thoughts on Clovis' worsts parts.

(If you didn't catch the bad behavior soon enough, this guy would totally be an insufferable rules lawyer in your Table Top RPG campaign)

Despite his party dynamics being silly and nuanced, and everyone picking him up like a dog from behind a dumpster, Clovis is actually very outwardly unnerving to a lot of folks who don't come baked with that Vaugardian sensibility to Not Ask Questions. He can be very particular about how he wants to approach things, and can be very 'i've done this before, my way is best' - this sort of behavior is downplayed with the Party because 1) He's actively searched them out and has pledged himself to Mirabelles cause, so she (and the party) are sort of the boss, so he feels he shouldn't cause a fuss if it's not something that he knows he's an expert in, 2) His strict sense of knightly sensibilities and code keeps him generally polite (and awkward) with most folks, and 3) They were nice to him so if they think him insufferable and not useful He Will Die.

When things get intense and serious, so does Clovis. Isabeau affectionately calls it 'locking in' (but also recognizing when Clovis is getting fixated on 'i think i'm right listen to me' and goes 'oh shit thats what I used to do lets diffuse') and Mirabelle thinks Clovis is 'the good kind of scary' (since you know, Knights and justice and doing the right thing).

Needless to say, when you add the loops into this equation, a situation where Clovis gains intimate knowledge of how everything works in the House, and companions which are repeating things to the point of no longer being meaningful, paired with the frustrations of nothing working...Oh boy. Not to mention, Clovis' greatest potential ally in this scenario, the person who shares the hell that is the loops...is also the person with the most baggage regarding Clovis' familiar appearance and mannerisms. So once those frustrations bubble up...

Needless to say, Clovis has an...interesting dynamic with Loop because of all of this. Clovis isn't sure he likes the ability to scare his Star-guide.

(...there is...one other person here that shares the loops with Clovis...but it's Complicated. We'll talk about THAT later.)

[viienrose]

Honestly, as a hard Wenclair shipper, I don’t hate on Wyler fans. I’ve decided to write an analysis about Wyler as a way to better understand them. Even if I don’t share their love for the ship, it doesn’t erase some good points.

The character of Wednesday, throughout the different adaptations, has always shown some kind of affection for the kind and shy boy-next-door type. Tyler kind of fits this description — even if, in my opinion, Eugene is a literal copy-paste of that stereotype and was clearly relegated to the “little brother” figure.

So Wyler can make some kind of sense. The dark and sharp character paired with the sweet counterpart is always a great combination. Opposites attract, am I right?

Another argument for Wyler is that Tyler turning into a dangerous monster wouldn’t necessarily be a red flag for an Addams. On the contrary, it’s actually a good argument — the Addams family loves the strange and macabre.

However, a Hyde must have a master. There has to be a power dynamic. Tyler will never truly be in control of the beast. And the Addams seem to value balance and equality in their relationships. It would also be unfair to Tyler to be forced into obedience. Even if Wednesday became his new master, it would make their relationship based on a lack of free will from one party. It sounds incredibly toxic.

The part that gets really questionable is the Hyde itself.

Like, I get that Laurel tortured and controlled Tyler, but he admitted to enjoying killing people. I also understand that it’s supposed to be interpreted through the lens of psychological/emotional/sexual abuse, and that Tyler liking the thrill of the dirty work he was forced into could be a trauma response.

But how much control does a Hyde really have?

That’s a big question throughout the show:

• Did Tyler really like killing?

• Is the Hyde another being within himself that subdues his “real” self?

• Or is it just his dark impulses surfacing?

• Is Tyler a good guy under the pressure of the Hyde, or was he the Hyde all along?

That brings us to the next point:

We don’t know Tyler.

We don’t know Tyler with the Hyde.

And through season one, we come to understand that Tyler was the Hyde. But it left us wondering: Was the Hyde Tyler?

Is Tyler a psychopathic murderer, or was he forced to act under the stronger will of a savage alter ego?

Are they the same or two separate beings? How do we even divide the responsibility between the two?

I really hope the show gives us more insight into it.

Since we don’t have answers yet, I can’t imagine Wednesday being involved with Tyler.

She obviously had an affection or at least an interest in the sweet coffee boy — but that wasn’t really Tyler.

The Hyde is part of Tyler, whether he likes it or not. Wednesday liked the version Tyler showed her — not his real self.

He basically lied to her to get close. He led her to Laurel even if he had some liking for her. Was he entirely controlled? Maybe, but either way, it’s safe to say Wednesday no longer holds any real attachment to him.

Another important point — even if it’s just common sense — is that Wednesday would absolutely hate Tyler if he truly meant those murders.

The Addams family might be creepy and kooky, but they have a strong sense of justice and solid values. They’re goth, not evil.

—

Now, some projections based on what we learn about Tyler in the future:

• Best-case scenario: He was subjected by the Hyde and gets help to control it, healing from his trauma. It would take time. He could then be redeemed and reintegrated into the outcast world, with a better understanding of Hydes and protections against the abuse he suffered.

• Worst-case scenario: The dark personality of the Hyde was always part of him, even before it “woke up.” In that case, Tyler holds responsibility for his crimes, is non-redeemable, and goes full villain mode.

Honestly, I’d be happy with either.

The actor playing Tyler is amazing, and I can easily see him nailing both versions.

Still, I think Tyler would be the perfect opponent for Wednesday rather than a potential suitor.

As you might have guessed from this analysis, I really dig his character — mostly for the mystery and potential he still holds.

—

Now that I’ve written this whole text about making peace with Wyler fans, I want to point out something:

We kind of have the same argument as Wenclair fans!

The opposites attract trope. The Addams’ fascination with monstrous creatures.

We’re not so different after all.

Let’s just enjoy the show in our own ways without turning on each other’s throats.

[tripleburger]

Three of my favorite things are when a show’s opening sequence tells the audience outright what’s going to happen, when sweeping thematic parallels exist between characters, and when mythological and etymological references abound. Many spoilers up to S2E6 and crack theories below because Severance does it all best.

Like many Severance theorists, I believe Gemma is in a coma or is otherwise completely brain dead. She is the Eurydice to Mark’s Orpheus. Mark is special because Gemma is special because her body and brain were well preserved. Unlike Lumon claimed, the title sequence implies that in the accident her car sunk into frozen water, a cold harbor. Because of this, her file is called Cold Harbor and she has more time than most before her body, brain, and file expire. Lumon staged her totaled car beneath the tree, burning it to hide the evidence and the removal of her actual body. Her husband, who loved her so much he choked on her ghost, consented to or was coerced by the company into splitting his own consciousness to escape her memory. Then his Innie somehow managed to make enough progress on her file to have her semi-dead body and partially reconstructed brain actively work on the Severed Floor as an almost normal wellness counselor. The opening sequence shows a car sinking under the ice of a frozen lake, and I believe it’s Gemma’s, not Cobel’s. Mark’s new focus on taking down Lumon will distract him from finishing her file, Cold Harbor, and it will expire. She will expire. Eurydice won’t walk out of the underworld because Orpheus looked back.

Then there’s Helly, the second drowning woman, a more tangible and present Eurydice who may still be lost in the end, a parallel to Gemma. The season 2 title sequence shows Helly R and Ms. Casey beneath Mark and under the water, running away from him in opposite directions. He can only follow one at a time. Helly is depicted under water in the pineapple bobbing sequence of the Lumon propaganda video and again when Irving waterboards Helena/Helly during the ORTBO. In one title sequence basement elevator shot, Gemma literally becomes Helly, all blurred into one person from Mark’s partially reintegrated perspective, just like how he sees Gemma’s face when he has sex with Helly and Helena. Their fates are tied.

The S2 opening sequence is full of babies and Helly/Helena is certainly pregnant. The last baby in the opening sequence has a Kier head, another Eagan for the family dynasty, courtesy of Mark. In the opening, Mark’s own reintegrated head morphs into a portrait of the Malice Ram typically associated with Helly, symbolizing their union in the form of a baby, and Mark watches the painting being carried away. Then the camera pans over to Gemma’s car half-sunk in the water. He can follow the Malice goat (Helly and their child) or follow his Bride of Woe (Gemma) into the lake. He can’t do both.

In S2E5 there is a faceless character (Petey? Fields?), apparently a Lumon doctor, who travels to the sub basement while whistling Gordon Lightfoot’s “The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald,” a song about a real shipwreck with no survivors and how Lake Superior never gives up her dead. The Lumon painting “Kier Invites You to Drink of His Water” depicts Eagan looking out over what appears to be the Great Lakes as if he owns them. Superior—Kier—will never give up his dead. Gemma will sink under the cold water, too deep to retrieve.

But aspects of Gemma may live on. Ms. Huang, the only child in the show with a major role, is not depicted directly in the opening sequence. Other than Cobel, no Lumon employee is (unless you count Helly/Helena as one person, which should be illegal). I think Ms. Huang is likely not Mark and Gemma’s lost child, as some theories speculate. She may be a clone of Gemma, given the apparent goat cloning happening in Mammalians Nurturable, though that’s a stretch with the timeline and her age. This would be more likely if Gemma had been working for Lumon for years prior, much like Burt seems to have been involved with Lumon as early as 20 years ago despite the Severance procedure only being 12 years old. I don’t have a grand, unifying theory of Ms. Huang except to say that her surname translates from Chinese to mean yellow, gold, bright, shining, or phoenix, which is interesting when tied to Gemma. Lumon doctors could potentially take Gemma’s finished Cold Harbor file, which is stored on her Severance chip, and implant it in Ms. Huang’s brain, a true resurrection of both body and mind, exactly what Lumon needs to restore its founder, Kier Eagan.

Another interesting breadcrumb is Ms. Huang’s handheld water toy of Kier swimming with rings. It has green rings (Woe, the Bride), blue rings (Malice, the Ram), and red rings (Dread, the Crone), but no yellow rings (Frolic, the Jester). Milchick tells Ms. Huang, “You must eradicate from your essence childish folly” before truncating this statement to simply “Grow” while punishing himself for failure following his performance review. If the Gemma clone theory is true, Lumon may want Ms. Huang to mature faster (removing folly and frolic) to ensure Gemma’s adult consciousness can successfully integrate with Ms. Huang’s preteen brain. Gemma is the closest they’ve ever come to fulfilling Kier’s wishes. The phoenix has to rise again.

Now for Devon, absolute queen that she is. Mark outright calls her “Persephone” when she asks him to name her. She’s the Queen of the Underworld, the wife of Hades (Ricken, who I hope isn’t actually evil), splitting her time between the living surface and the dead world below. Devon’s a mother, she’s associated with life giving and pregnancy and caring for her little brother at the lowest point in his life. In the myth, Persephone is so moved by Orpheus’ music and plight that she convinces Hades to give him a chance to save Eurydice, as long as Orpheus doesn’t look back. I think she’ll convince Ricken to use their new “in” with Natalie, the Board, and Lumon to help Mark, however tragically it ends.

Last but never least, Harmony Cobel. The blank, glowing face staring down at a book of the grassy goat field, watching Mark and Helly heads roll around the pasture. Innie Mark carries Outie Mark into this field, illuminated by Cobel. She’s not done watching them and, quite literally, has Mark on the brain. The sequence then follows the Mark in her head to the basement elevator. I believe that Cobel is Apollo, god of light, prophecy, and music (she sings!), in the Orpheus and Eurydice analogy, a parent of Orpheus himself. This is not to say that Cobel is literally Mark and Devon’s mother, though I’d love to see that madness, but that she views Mark as her son, often mentioning her own mother when they chat. She wants Mark to thrive like Apollo wants Orpheus to thrive. Extending this comparison to the Greek gods of the Orpheus myth, you have Milchick as Hermes, the messenger god so fond of his big words, the god who travels the world (on his motorcycle), and leads souls to the Underworld. Hermes takes Eurydice back to hell when Orpheus turns around to see her one last time.

[maxdibert]

I know that, at the end of the day, James and Lily didn't do something as extreme as Severus (joining the death eaters), but I still find his actions more understandable. It comes down to their upbringing. It may sound unfair, but I think it's pretty reasonable that I hold James and Lily to a higher standard of "goodness", because they didn't have many problems compared to other characters (not just Severus, but also Sirius, Remus and so on).

James is from a rich family and never had to ask for anything. And Lily is pretty much middle class and the favorite child. She may be vulnerable because she's a muggleborn, but she was never bullied as far as we know, and everyone loved her. So I can't find justification for their actions, like James' violent bullying and Lily not being able to show compassion to her friend when he's being abused. All things considered, they should have been more good-natured.

And I say that as someone who was also held to a higher standard. My family is not rich, but we never lacked anything important, so I've had a pretty privileged life compared to most. That's why my parents always taught me to be kind and understanding, because other people don't have what I have.

Pretty unpopular opinion, but I also don’t think joining a terrorist group is something that should haunt you for the rest of your life. Maybe it’s because I work with criminals, maybe it’s because I’ve met people who’ve fallen into cults for one reason or another, maybe it’s because I come from a country where there were armed nationalist terrorist groups, or maybe it’s because I’ve been very politically involved, but over the years I’ve learned how easy it is to be someone with few resources, low self-esteem, and a deep need for belonging and validation, and end up getting involved in shady stuff. That doesn’t have to define your whole life. What defines your life is what you do with that, how you try to repair the damage or how you work to make the world better because you’ve genuinely come to realize you made a mistake.

Maybe it’s because I was raised in a Catholic school where I was taught that the one sheep who strays and comes back is more valued than the ninety-nine who never left. Or maybe it’s because I’m a Marxist and I’ve always believed it’s easy to make the ‘right’ decisions when you’ve got everything going for you, but not so easy when you’re short on choices.

Whatever the reason, I don’t think it’s that terrible for a teenager to be groomed by a group of fanatic adults, especially when that teenager left soon after and spent the rest of their life paying the price for their actions. Maybe it’s because I’m a lawyer and I believe in social reintegration, and I care more about the work people put into making amends than I do about people who think they’re morally superior because they’ve never messed up. People are imperfect. What matters is remorse.

James never regretted being a piece of shit. That’s the difference.

[kingarmorking]

How do you feel about suo character? Do you feel his arc will start after kiryuu?!

Suo! my little shit! my favorite instigator!

jokes aside i love Suo! he's an incredibly interesting character and not just because we know jack and shit about him

he's a good foil to both Sakura and Nirei and i would love to study him under a microscope and all three of them play off each other So Well

Suo was really the one to break the ice when Sakura first arrived at Furin, which considering how Furin is probably wasn't really something that Sakura would've needed in the long run but it made things easier especially for Nirei's nerves

he does a lot of small things in the beginning (showing off how he can get people to accept his requests like he says himself side note love how both of these examples involve Sugi)

it's kind of funny in the way that Nirei's usually the first one to reach for Sakura (i talk about it more in my ramble here), Suo acts as the kind of bridge to allow Sakura to reach others or vice versa (others reaching to Sakura i mean)

during the grade captain vote, no one was speaking up to volunteer themselves or others and only when Suo volunteered Sakura did the others speak up to agree but also spoke highly about Sakura in the same vein or again going back to him breaking the ice with Sakura meeting the rest of 1-1

i love his relationship with both Sakura and Nirei (do not fucking separate this trio /hj) and how they both affect him

Suo's true emotions, hell possibly even his "real" self under all the masks he puts up, are brought out because of Sakura (his proclamation of taking the top spot and his clear, honest passion) and Nirei (running away from where Suo was protecting him so he could properly focus on the fight)

(anther side note i think this panel is one of the few times we've seen him lose his composure)

which actually kinda brings me to another point and it's a very small one but interesting nonetheless to me but it's the panel of Suo and Kaji training together

the matchup always intrigued me and im dying to know what the thought process was here (there's a fic that explores it here please im begging yall to check it out) esp going the route of both of them having smth that they want to hide (Kaji's berserker beast v Suo's merciless brutality) because they hate that particular version of themselves (though in Suo's case i dont think it's... hate but more like a general distain of it, not how one should properly act kind of thing) granted this is all hc'd territory so take it with a grain of salt

im certain that he envies / admires how Sakura and Nirei can be so open about who they are so authentically (and even push past their perceived limits) which im sure is what drew him to them to begin with (this goes into that beautifully) because whatever he went through has made it so he feels as though he cant be his authentic self

as for whether or not i think well get his arc after kiryuu... honestly i feel like his past might involve the Next Big Arc in a way? i know ive seen people speculate hes got connections with the yakuza and i could see that tbh

through my VERY CURSORY LOOK into leaving the yakuza, it doesnt... seem to be as a big a deal as i was expecting? if youve got a good relationship with the person you work under then its pretty easy for you to leave, though reintegrating with society is the hard part from there. i read that it is possible to just... kinda vanish too, though that wouldnt stop another member from tracking you down (and no fingers are being cut off)

if not a full blown yakuza, i could see Suo being part of a different gang and for one reason or another he left it so his former gang members track him down to either a. drag him back or b. punish him for leaving. not sure if his master would be part of said yakuza / generic gang or if his master is the one who got him out of there (which. hilarious if thats the case boy just went and joined another gang instead)

i dont know if his arc will start immediately after Kiryuu (i could see Nii-sensei throwing in a mini arc that leads into Suo's (like with Ito into Gravel)

whether or not it will though i love this silly lil guy! my craptastic gentleman son

[ninthprime]

severance 2x01 thoughts (spoilers)

bit late but i’m just throwing a few things down just in case

three things about the new MDR employees that stuck out to me: 1. mark w. and gwendolyn used to work in the same office (but not dario!); 2. mark w. states his old team (presumably also gwendolyn’s) never made quota; and 3. every bizarre thing that dario says about how low-tech his old office was. i don’t know how important these characters are or which aspects of this are relevant but they all feel like pretty purposeful lore details.

i’m like 65% sure on the “helena pretending to be helly” theory- it’s the occam’s razor explanation- but i think if that’s the case, we’re going to know about it within a couple episodes. the tension will be us as viewers worrying about what helena will do with the innies and whether helly can be helped, not about whether it’s helly in the first place. the other 35% of me thinks that’s helly but something happened over the timeskip that we haven’t seen yet, most likely some sort of threat or manipulation of her by lumon (maybe something on the testing floor?). my absolute wildest theory would be that they’ve reintegrated her, but i feel like something that big wouldn’t happen offscreen…

i also think miss huang’s deal is going to be either way more simple or way more complicated than anybody is guessing. my kneejerk thought is that she went to the same school as cobel did, but there’s gotta be something to that “crossing guard” line. the other scene that stuck out to me was her and irving glaring at each other for an extended moment before they went into the break room- but i can’t tell if that’s foreshadowing a later reveal or setting up a future connection/rivalry?/etc. (it does kind of remind me of that “irving used to have milchick’s job” theory)

i think milchick’s being purposefully messed with or tested somehow. being given a child as his new subordinate/replacement, his computer not being updated, etc. he probably knows or is at least guessing at it, too. why the board is doing that, though, is beyond me. maybe they think he could’ve been collaborating with cobel?

i keep seeing people asking why the outies would go back to work after the s1 finale. i actually think the guys, at least, all have good reasons- mark needs to understand what “she’s alive” means, irving has his lumon investigation, and dylan has to support a family (which i’ve been guessing is the reason he took a severed job in the first place). helena’s the only one who may have been reluctant, but the decision may not have been hers alone depending on lumon internal politics. i suspect what actually happened is lumon didn’t want them all back due to risk of another rebellion and either fired or suspended dylan and irving- but they let mark come back because they need him for whatever they’re doing with gemma/ms. casey. that’s also why they let everyone come back when mark started causing trouble; they want mark there and working specifically.

the easiest way for the MDR team to figure out how long it’s actually been since the s1 finale would probably be to find and talk with burt’s old O&D co-workers, but i’m not sure they’re still on that floor? it looks like we might have multiple basement floors now? not sure about that but then where did mark w., gwendolyn and dario go. are they just fired/dead

at the end of this season i need to make a compilation of every absolutely batshit milchick line that tramell tillman delivers with 100% seriousness. give him an emmy. we’re underrating the bit after the “throuple” line where he just follows it up with “thankfully, she failed at this” while the camera stays on mark’s baffled face. peak comedy.

i would kill and die for irving

[falafels]

i love ur seth u love how developed of a character he is i love how he’s funny and part of the team but also a dick and everyone dunks on him. truly how he should have been in a perfect aftg

thanks man! honestly i don’t think he ever could have been like that in canon/perfect aftg because the core of it is they all suck so bad and get in their own way. like he did want so badly for it to be better and wymack’s ideas to work but he wouldn’t be the one to commit to it if there was any chance it would fail, which is why i think it kind of works in this au? like the riko murder attempt puts him in a coma, he wakes up and suddenly it’s worked and the team is succeeding and people are getting better and it’s what he wanted but what he wanted to be part of and now he’s on the outside. he has to reintegrate to a team he barely recognises and is basically as outside as the new freshmen (who i WILL get to at some point they live in my head forever. probably not in the socmed au but there will be a long old lore post), and i think this isolation is kind of what draws him to aaron. aaron, who dislikes everyone so much that it sort of reaches a level of no-judgement (in that he’s so judgemental it kind of doesn’t matter anymore), as well as the fact that aaron seems to be drawing away from the team as well now that he’s allowed to. he’s not totally gone, but with any first freedom he vanishes for a bit and then chooses to come back as he pleases. seth thinks he’s a good place to start, as he’s part of the team but interacts with it on his own terms now. aaron also has some similar lore to seth, with addiction and strained familial relationships and not-so-progressive takes. seth eventually finds his stride by leaning into being the Elder Fox after a joke from one of the freshman- he’s not actually the oldest (renee and nicky both older), but he’s been a fox the longest and decides he’s some kind of pillar of wisdom and starts imparting this wisdom on occasion unprompted, like at practice there’s a quiet moment after dan explains a play and seth just goes “you can reheat pizza with a car battery but it will taste worse. and not with a honda because it catches fire and the owner chases you.” and kevin is endlessly annoyed by it because seth will just stop exy conversations to dispense today’s sage nugget of wisdom but the others find it vaguely entertaining if deeply confusing, and slowly seth becomes kind of weird in an amusing and more safe way than just a scowling jackass. don’t get me wrong, he’s still very much a scowling jackass, but he’s also someone who they know doesn’t actually mean them any harm. he’s kind of like the team’s version of your middle school best friend’s older brother who sits on lawn chairs wearing a bucket hat and no shirt and tells you the government is trying to steal your thoughts or your piss or some incredibly niche but elaborate conspiracy that he wholeheartedly believes and you’re like wow this guy cannot be real how does he get through a day but then the sink breaks and he fixes it with like 1 tool and some tape and it works perfectly and you start to think damn maybe he’s right about the aliens. anyway sorry i totally derailed this i love to talk about seth sorry ily thank u for this ♥️ ♥️ ♥️

[jesterkoops]

ISTG if I have to spend the next two years watching people be pre-emptively miserable over Hellyna for no reason other than the general audience being dumb and therefore that must somehow mean Dan is just going to throw his whole story out of the window...

I understand plenty of shows have done that in the past but, no offense, it's usually pretty shitty shows with shitty writers. Prestige television almost never does that unless its showrunners are dudebros who have Game of Thrones as their template for what they think great television is. If you are a good writer you don't pander to people who don't understand your work, or change direction willy nilly based on what people expect or don't expect. If anything, you double down on it to really drill it into people's heads. And while I can't say I trust ANY writer 100%, Dan doesn't give me the vibe of someone who's ego-driven and who either wants to outsmart or over-pander to his audience.

Plus, nothing whatsoever seems to hint at them suddenly deciding that because people don't like/understand Helena she's going to be written off at "the villain" and that's it. Every single time any of them talks about Helena the theme is consistently about how trapped she is, how Helly is a manifestation of her repressed nature, and Britt has been avoiding any question about Helena's "redemption" like the plague, which means it's a spoiler. And sidelining her would literally go against the entire premise of the show being about people finding their true selves through their innie-outie dynamic, about outies recognising that the innies are people, and about whether kinship transcends across innies and outies. It's also why any scenarios where Helly refuses reintegration because "Helena bad" is so off putting to me. Because that is Helly literally learning NOTHING and being stuck where she was in S1. She has literally reached the point in the finale to start accepting she IS Helena, and you think that's all going to be for nothing? Or that Cobel's in-your-face line about SHE IS AN EAGAN YOU MEAN NOTHING TO HER is going to prove true?? There's nothing more delicious to a writer than subverting their own characters' expectations and preconceived notion of other characters as a conduit to subvert the audience's.

I know I myself speculated about Helena "killing herself" for Helly by permanently severing herself, but that was early on in my Severance adventure and before I really got a good grasp of the underlying message the show is aiming for. I don't completely rule it out, but I think it's a very unlikely outcome at this point and even if something along those lines were to happen, it will happen after Helena has had plenty of development and "natural reintegration" with Helly so that there will be a lot of Helena in Helly by the time all's said and done. They're not going to suddenly go "well oops! Helena is evil and must die so Helly and/or Markgemma can ride off into the sunset".

[kestrel-of-herran]

Do you think Mark and Helena can work?Reintegration isn’t guranteed to work but I am expecting it to kick in at some point.They did some teasing for it in after season press as well.What I am asking is do you seem the work out in romantic context?Like I get markhelly but outie Mark isn’t a particularly empathetic or loving person.I don’t see him sympathising with Helena even if he knew what she’s been through.Also “love transcends severance”isn’t something I am going for here.Look at burving,Irving likes Burt on the outside as well alongside the feeling that carried over.So I am having trouble picturing him ever understanding Helena let alone feeling something for her.

ohohohooo am i glad you asked me this because i do have thoughts on the matter, and most of them have to do with the nature of narrative.

in short, i think mark and helena aren't suitable for a lasting relationship in this place of the story (end of s2), because they will develop into becoming the kind of couple that are compatible and endgame in the long run.

think of mark s and helly r in the first scene of s1 e1: do they seem like they would ever work out? she's determined to get out of lumon and his biggest concern is his first day as department chief going in the worst way possible. they had to go through a lot of development -- helly learning there is a reason to want to stay in lumon through forging connections with mark and the mdr team, and mark opening up to rebelling against the system through helly's influence -- that transformed them into the kind of people who can and do have an enduring romantic relationship. but if we go back to s1 e1 and freeze them there, how could we have predicted the amount of development they'd undergo? how could the kiss at the end of the first season have prepared us for the intensity of the love scenes and their emotional development in s2? or if we look at mark s and helena eagan at the start of s2, how could we have predicted they would fall for each other? the lumon heiress and an innie?

likelihood depends only on the amount and direction of development characters will undergo, and that in turn depends on the writer's interest in making something happen, and imho markhellyna is about to happen in every iteration because the characters will grow and change together in a way that brings them closer to each other. mark scout and helena eagan falling in love can never happen solely because of love transcending, as this is a cop-out for mark scout -- he can't surrender all the work of growing to his innie and then just absorb the result, he needs to be actively participating in the story and changing through it, the same way helena was when she opened up to mark s and tried so hard to make him laugh and shared her most vulnerable truth with him.

but it's in this first meeting that we've frozen mark scout and helena eagan right now, a place in the story from which all development will start but which can only give us subtle clues about their natural compatibility without telling us anything about how moving through the story will change them. and we've already seen they share the same basic characteristics that pushed mark s and helly r closer in the first episodes -- a dark sense of humor, mark matching hellyna's boldness beat for beat. outside of this interaction, we've also seen they share a jadedness with the world, a tendency for harshness just because they can be mean. but this is only their starting line. the magic happens through the journey.