#Chapter analysis?

[alexnamuu]

I'm reading the Iliad in my country's translation (Brazilian Portuguese) and reading Canto 3, I realized that...Helen didn't like Paris or staying in Troy.

Like, I see a lot of people saying that she liked Paris and liked her new home, and didn't want to go back to Sparta with Menelaus. But that's totally wrong when you read the Iliad.

Helen cries when she learns that Menelaus and Paris will fight and tells King Priam that she would rather have died than gone to Troy with Paris. She cries, missing her firstborn, her home and Menelaus.

When Paris is rescued by Aphrodite and the Goddess tells Helen to go take care of her husband, she FIGHTS WITH APHRODITE SAYING THAT MENELAUS WON THE DUEL AND THAT HE WILL TAKE HER HOME, AND APHRODITE GETS PISSED BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE SAYS AND THREATENS TO KILL HELENA, AND THIS TERRIFIES THE POOR GIRL.

And what's the first thing Helena says when she finds Paris after the confrontation? That she would rather he had DIED.

Honestly? For me, Helena clearly demonstrates that she was impulsive when she agreed to go to Troy with Paris, in addition to Aphrodite's influence over her.But she never forgot the love she feels for her country, her first husband and her firstborn daughter, it's remarkable.

How can love cause so much pain? I think this concept written and addressed in the Iliad is very good, seriously.

[twilightofthesandwiches]

What's really evocative to me in all the new revelations and hints about Kris' true nature and intentions in Chapter 4 is the impression that... Kris is never free.

When they are free of our direct control, they are still not acting 100% of their real desires, they are following the orders of some evil Voice(s?) on the phone.

The ending seem to imply some sort of emotional conflict between them wanting to help out Susie, who is very dear to their heart, and following this plan which is probably not beneficial to her. A plan that they have to follow cause...

When Kris is not controlled by our very literal puppet-strings, they are instead controlled by the coercion and emotional manipulation of their mysterious benefactor. No matter which option they go with, Kris just cannot be free.

[the-irreverend]

AAAAAAAHHHHHHH watching Kris flee out of the room when they find out we're with them KILLS ME every damn time, and perhaps the detail that hurts the most is how their expression changes and how that adds a new understanding to how Kris sees us.

The moment they realize they and Noelle are in terrible danger, the netrual, reserved expression we're so used to seeing from them changes into one of ABSOLUTE TERROR as they flee out of the room; terror which I firmly believe is rooted in the psychological, emotional, and physical trauma we have caused them and Noelle.

The things we made them do in the Snowgrave/Weird Route made them realize just how much harm we're capable of causing them and the people they care about, and how great our capacity for evil truly is. They already resent us for depriving them of their agency, and now that they've endured us abusing said agency in the worst possible way, their hatred and fear of us has increased a thousandfold.

Deltarune isn't some cute little otherworldly adventure; it's a goddam cosmic horror story, except the twist is we're the eldritch being that brings ruin and madness wherever we go.

[peachdelta]

Was I a man dreaming I'm a butterfly; or am I now a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?

weird route bonus

[azzie-tangerine]

Okay while I'm absolutely getting my ass kicked on the Roaring Knight boss trying to actually beat it, I noticed something and I decided to talk about it.

So, in this fight, Kris does the least amount of damage to the Roaring Knight when attacking.

Despite Ralsei, supposedly, having a lower attack stat than Kris, even he's doing more than Kris. But Chapter 4 proves that in some way, they are involved with the Knight in a way. So it's obvious what's going on. They're holding back their punches. And, in a way, so is the Knight. When KO'd, Kris is more often than not set to -80 hp, while Ralsei and Susie are often set to -999. The Knight- whatever it is and how it's related to the Holidays- sees Kris as an ally and someone to not seriously hurt. And vice versa.

Well, except for once condition.

When both Susie and Ralsei are KO'd, and Kris is left standing.

Suddenly, it seems that Kris' attack significantly spikes. Now doing more damage than Susie typically does, who is the strongest one of the trio. Doing more than double the damage they were originally doing to their supposed ally.

The ONLY condition of this damage spike, at least from what I've seen, is when Kris is the only one of the group still able to fight. nothing else.

This tells me a few things. One: that Kris genuinely does care for Ralsei and Susie. Both of these are already proven both before and after this fight, but for Ralsei in particular the evidence was rather limited. It's only Chapter 3 onward (debatable) that they show care for Ralsei, when pre-Chapter 3 there was hesitance. Gesturing to the Ralsei tea. Kris caring for Susie, in comparison, is a lot more obvious thanks to their more frequent moments alone together.

What's more important to me is the second thing this says: That when put in the situation to choose, Kris will prioritize RALSEI and SUSIE'S sake rather than the Knight.

I've been a "Kris is not evil" believer since the start, and I feel like this is evidence for that. While we as the SOUL don't fully know what's going on with Kris, what we do see is Carol and/or the Knight having some type of hold on them. Something about a "promise". They know more than we do, possibly as much as Ralsei knows, and will fight to prevent us from knowing more. And yet, when put in a fight that already shows them holding back, they suddenly stop when they're the last ones protecting their friends.

They may claim otherwise in the future. But actions speak louder than hidden dialogue. If they had to choose between the Knight, someone that you could argue they have a history with, or their new friends?

It's Ralsei and Susie they'd choose.

[patchwork-crow-writes]

As much as I'm not feeling particularly charitable towards the character of Carol Holiday, I think there are some interesting insights to glean into her character from before she got twisted up into... this.

I think she must have been quite charming, in her way, at one point. Rudy certainly saw something in her, after all, and their family was very close with the Dreemurrs. I wonder that December's rebelliousness was at least tolerated, if not wholly condoned, especially since her bedroom remains untouched since her disappearance.

And, perhaps it's strange to consider, but I think Carol and Kris must have been very close too, to the point where she'd be like an aunt to them. Why do I think this? Consider her fascination with blades - the katana she hangs over the kitchen stovetop, the bronze-cast snowflakes adorning the walls of her house. I think that she might have appreciated the craftsmanship and aesthetics of such things, saw a beauty in them, perhaps. And suddenly it doesn't become so hard to see where Kris might have gotten their fascination with knives from.

And, that's interesting, isn't it. The name "Kris". Short for Krismas, potentially, but also... the name of a ceremonial dagger from Indonesia. I wonder if Carol may have had a hand in naming them when the Dreemurs adopted them. I wonder if she saw potential in them, and wanted to nurture it, bring out the best in them.

Before all this... unpleasantness. Before it all got twisted out of control. Now Carol wields the blade with an iron grip... the formerly beloved Dreemur child reduced to their namesake, a knife with which she may perform an unholy ritual.

You don't consider a knife's feelings when using it for such a purpose. The knife cuts, the knife swings, as all good knives are supposed to. The Knife does what its wielder tells it to do. The Knife cannot refuse. The Knife cannot be anything other than what it is. The Knife will be wielded, and it will be used up, and it will be discarded.

I wonder if Carol Holiday can be pulled back from the brink before that happens.

[duxarcana]

You know how people have been theorizing that the "love" that finds its way to the girl might also be "LOVE" on some routes?

The Japanese version of this prophecy interestingly is not a direct translation of the English line. Instead, it reads:

"The girl finds out the true meaning of love."

[lucanderie]

Still need to mull this over some more, but it's very intriguing how much player-defying Kris proves themselves physically capable of this chapter.

They maliciously comply with our exact wording when asked to turn a doorknob. They cover their mouth midway through a sentence. When asked to say Berdly's name, they repeat themselves loudly in shock. They do PLENTY of physical actions or gestures unprompted, such as kneeling down and touching Ralsei when only prompted to talk, pushing Susie out of harm's way for the second time, giving her their knife with a flourish, laughing or nodding to clarify a statement... as well as their unprompted hijinks at the church. They act by themselves both in the spur of the moment and premeditated, in both low-stakes interactions and highly emotional, instinctive reactions. It seems like they're capable of doing any emoting, physical gesturing, or creative prompt interpretations they so desire apart from a) speaking, b) when directly commanded to do something else and c) in many weird route sequences (will circle back to this). They know entire commands word for word before they execute them, and they are aware enough of the fact that we have goals and what those goals may be to actively conspire against us. Kris knows our "rules".

This is extremely interesting because we saw very little of this in the previous chapters- leading us to believe Kris had basically zero input on Dark-World happenings, and had less understanding of their own situation then say, Ralsei did. But here, Kris isn't just getting more clever about or more accustomed to defying us- they're proving progressively more capable of just doing things of their own volition that any possessed kid who was randomly dropped into this situation with no warning or context would not wait two days to try.

Combined with the fact that from the beginning, they defy us to limit what we see long before they defy what we actually force them to do, (even when they clearly don't like doing it!), and that there's precedent for a character's mindset determining the player's level of control with Susie, it's seeming more and more like Kris is purposefully limiting themselves in earlier chapters. They have a vested interest in "playing the part", coming across to either us or someone else like they have less agency than they do, and they get progressively more open about the amount of defiance that they are capable of.

This is just, a fascinating jump in Kris's amount of agency! At the very least, they may know a similar amount of meta-info to even Ralsei. It changes some of their earlier actions from purely-forced to compliant. And there's a lot of (non-evil, you guys) reasons they would do this- they're probably at least, (at this point), afraid of some kind of retribution from us or their co-conspirators. They want to stay ahead of us by hiding their agency, they may not be comfortable enough with themselves to show express in certain instances... And this changes their defiant actions from things that they are allowed to do into things they are willing to risk doing- saving Susie twice, not hurting Ralsei's feelings, comforting Noelle, slorking down those juice cups like they're NOTHING- all little risks they're willing to take.

This just leaves the weird route- which may either be a route where the player simply gains more control over Kris, or maybe the "proceed" commands could be more general and therefore more inclusive. Or Kris could be initially, willing to play along with freezing the Darkners in order to achieve their goal, to bide their time, and once they realize how fucked up we can get it's too late.

I don't know. I'm definitely missing things, but I just love how much more Kris we have and are eventually going to get.

[oddberryshortcake]

Going crazy over Kalim acknowledging the power he has over Jamil and that they did not grow up as equals.

Even though a Jamil who acts like his best friend is what would be more convenient for him, he would rather try to genuinely befriend the real Jamil, flaws and all, over being content with something he isn’t.

Their situation will always be a mess and complicated but I am living for this development. And Kalim openly admitting that Jamil being two-faced frustrates him and makes him angry? Them actually fighting for the first time in 17 years? Jamil declaring that one day he’ll get freedom for himself? Scarabia stans winning today.

[prism-forgone]

toriel's and asgore's parenting (ohhh boy)

okay so are we ready to talk about how toriel and asgore are not opposite sides of the good/bad parenting dichotomy and more like. strewn across the middle in an increasingly stupid way. scratch that. strewn across the 'bad' half of it, even if it's not at its tail end. yes. Both of Them

toriel cares for kris's actual basic needs - she looks after if they're fed or going to school, the basic necessities you may not think about until they're gone. but she's not exactly perfect at the kind of responsibility that isn't just part of the routine. she doesn't let them know she's not going to be at church even though the house is locked and they don't have a key, and she doesn't notice they're out way past 1am (based on the soundtrack names) because she's having too much fun

yes yes. she deserves to wind down and breathe, make a friend, don't chase me out of town, i know; but she's also a parent with a responsibility for her kid, and as much as you can argue if kris really was uncomfortable or not, a. susie was also there and clearly uncomfortable, and we know toriel cares about her, b. even if kris was fine with what was going on, which. they're clearly not but sure. they still couldn't sleep because of the noise

asgore, on the other hand, has this distinct vibe of a divorced dad that doesn't really know how to care for the kid or just. has no idea what to do with them in general when they're at his place. the vibe of the part of his shop where he's staying has a distinct 'divorced-guy-who-doesn't-yet-know-how-to-take-care-of-his-living-space' feel, i can't underline this enough. and he clearly doesn't have the ends to provide basic comfort for a kid

but asgore, crucially, and unlike toriel, notices when kris is acting off. when they spend too much time in the bathroom at the end of chapter 2, toriel waves it off as something normal, but in the chapter 4 weird route asgore checks on them and, importantly, because he noticed the way they've been acting after snowgrave happened, gives them a hot chocolate, something we know kris associates with comfort

it feels like toriel was good at basic childcare, that is food, clothing and other basics, and asgore handled the kids' more emotional needs. which would fit them! even in UT we saw toriel's propensity for mixing doting care (at times bordering on helicopter parenting) with pathologic escapism, literally into the ruins, as well as asgore's ability to comfort people (in that case as king; just remember how people talked about him) and inability to plan and be assertive

tl;dr those two may have not been the greatest parents but at least as a unit they were able to tag team taking care of their kids. when they're separate and focused on either distancing themselves (toriel....) or trying to prove themselves to be worthy of being taken back (asgore.....), without care about how it looks like to their kid mind you, kris gets sort of lost in-between the folds of that whole feud, and there isn't even asriel to pick up their slack. they're more awful at parenting separately because no one is covering for their missteps

[evesedenramblings]

Something so underrated about Eva Tsunaka is how incredibly egotistical she is. It flies under the radar most of the game, probably because she’s paired with Damon “my talent is better than your talent” Maitsu for most of it, but I would say she’s actually MORE egotistical than Damon is, it’s just easier for us to see Damon’s ego since he’s the protagonist and we can access his inner monologue.

Yes, Damon is definitely egoistic but there’s some logic behind it. Damon has a philosophy of talents needing to be useful, and it’s only when those talents don’t meet his standard that Damon gets an ego. When it’s people like Wolfgang with ‘useful’ talents, or just of use to him in general, Damon tends to demonstrate a lot of respect. He is capable of seeing others as his equal.

Eva, however? She respects nobody but herself, not even Damon. Absolutely nothing is ever her fault, it’s everyone else’s fault because she can’t accept they matched her intelligence, something her ego is rooted in as the Ultimate Mathlete. She “deserves to live”, as though she was the exception to the rules of the Killing Game and was above punishment. She bluntly calls her fellow students and their ideas stupid. When Damon notices the doorknob in the boiler room has been flipped, but only after the fact, Eva remarks that she “would have noticed in the moment”, and she rubs that in too. She needed to assert herself as more intelligent than her only friend. This particular example is crazy too considering Eva changed the doorknob herself! I sure hope she would have noticed it was switched!

So much of Eva’s self worth is rooted in needing to be better than everyone else, and unlike Damon she’s not willing to accept being equals. She has to be better, or else she’s nothing.

[barnabybugspeopleonline]

posting this so i can claim the title of being the first person to point it out

[twilightofthesandwiches]

The funny thing is that despite the many surface-level similarities between Mettaton Undertale and Tenna Deltarune; both being rectangular, charismatic TV Hosts who subject the Player Characters to many TV-Themed Minigames and a ‘score’ based Sparing Mechanic

And they even have a very similar taste is suits!

On a deeper character/thematic level, they’re actually total opposites.

Mettaton is the Underground’s only celebrity and main source of entertainment, he’s highly watched and highly popular (Well, within the standards of the Underground, it's implied they are just not that many Monsters around). Meanwhile Tenna’s whole thing is that he’s been abandoned and ignored by the whole Dreemurr family. Outcompeted and overshadowed by the many other sources of entertainment in the modern Light World.

And while Tenna is motivated by an obsessive desire to not be abandoned ever again, to keep Toriel and the Fun Gang on his shows forever… One of Mettaton’s biggest flaws is his tendency to abandon those he’s close to. He pretty much cut ties with Shyren and Napstablook when he became a star.

And he’s been growing distant from Alphys as well.

And, actually his whole darn motivation is to abandon the Underground in search of even greater fame on the surface.

His Pacifist Ending is all about him confronting that flaw in himself, understanding how important he is to the Monsters of the Underground and deciding that he should stay so he can keep bringing his brand of entertainment, joy and glamour to the people who needs it.

While Tenna’s Happy Ending is about helping him to get over his obsessive neediness to entertain specifically the Dreemurr family, and realizing he can move on to someone else, to someplace else, who will actually watch him.

On a deeper thematic level... I think you can also talk about how Mettaton is driven by his Dreams, while Tenna seeks Hope.

And also, I always saw Mettaton as representing modernity for the Underground.

Due to his human-fanboyism and fascination with the Surface, Mettaton has ended up creating and/or promoting a lot of aspects of modern human culture in the Underground. Mass media entertainment, merchandise, trademarks, fast-food, minimum-wage retail jobs, unions…

All of these things seem to exist in the Underground primarily or entirely due to Mettaton’s influence.

Every other Boss/Main Character has some kind of ‘official position’ in the Kingdom's traditional power-structure; Sentry, Royal Guard Captain, Royal Scientist, King, Queen, Prince… Mettaton is a creation of the Royal Scientist, but on his own he’s just a rich and famous celebrity. That's kind of a modern concept in it and of itself, since it kinda requires the existence of a mass media culture....

Or hell, just the fact that he’s the one Monster in the game who seems to have no real respect/loyalty for the Monarchy, and is actually working against him…

Both out of his individual sense of morality (he cares for the Humans) but also for the sake of the very modern goal of mass fame.

And of course on the most obvious level he’s a technologically-advanced robot whose ‘zone’ is the most tech-themed part in the game. (Zones? if you wanna count Hotland and the CORE as separate areas. Either way it's true of both when compared to the rest of the Underground.)

And Tenna is obviously the exact opposite of this. He and his Dark World are still kinda tech-themed in the sense that he is a Darkner based on a household electronic device, but he’s still clearly supposed to stand as a vast contrast to the much-more advanced techy-themed Darkners of Cyber City. He’s specifically meant to be themed after outdated and old-fashioned technology

And the concept of Nostalgia.

… In a way, despite Undertale being a very 2010’s game and despite the Underground being established to have 2010's technology such as Social Media… Mettaton's being primarily a TV Star with TV Show theming in most of his encounters is a very 20th century sort of concept. To use the Television as a shorthand for the concept of modernity.

Obviously that works within Undertale because that is a very familiar cultural shorthand and also it does make sense within the Very Particular Technological and Cultural Framework of the Underground… But with Deltarune being both a much newer game and taking place in a world much closer to our own, I guess it makes sense to instead use the TV to symbolize the past, outdated technology and nostalgic yearning.

[the-irreverend]

This moment here demonstrates what I think is one of Carol's most interesting and underrated qualities: that she has a very reactionary mindset in that she always tries to force things back to a certain status quo instead of accepting change or things as they are.

I don't believe she's helping out Asgore financially just for some menial housework. I think the fact that she's also encouraging him to try to get back with Toriel demonstrates that she's trying to bring back her relationship with the Dreemurrs despite all the evidence that it's just not possible anymore.

AND WE ALSO SEE THIS WITH DESS'S ROOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that she preserves it perfectly as it was before her disappearance further shows that she's not the kind of person who likes to move on, as if she believes that doing anything to Dess's room (i.e. emptying it out of her possessions as one would do after the loss of a loved one) would signify to her there's no hope she's coming back (or that she knows she isn't gone if she had a hand in making her the Knight).

In a way, she is basically a living embodiment of the Snowgrave Run, in that she always forces things to be a certain way, and in doing so, makes the lives of the people they affect that much worse (in addition to being figuratively and literally cold AF).

[kiitzuna]

so..... kriselle. right guys?

⚠ DELTARUNE CHAPTER 3+4 SPOILERS ⚠

tw// csa mention

to preface, this is just my own reading. you are free to interpret the weird route and its contents how you wish. you are not required to take my reading as the end all be all.

horror has always had somewhat of an inherent sexual (and queer) undertone to it but it doesnt mean that you cant write it without it- i love horror that blends real life psychology and human experience with the otherworldly because there is SO MUCH you can do with it and it gets scary because most of the time it feels like something that could actually happen under the right circumstances… although when youre including a supernatural element (such as the player) the circumstances change and you need to recategorize and take more care to understand certain actions while still being conscious so that you are not just writing something torture porn-esque. this is an otherworldly entity (the player) taking the place of the human (kris) and acting within human bounds (kris cannot shapeshift or anything like that, we're limited to what their human body is capable of) to perpetuate the horror.

in context of the couch scene this is the moment that kris can no longer hide the existence of the other entity inside them from noelle. the secret is entirely out in the open and noelle knows that there is something unbelievably wrong with kris. i dont think noelle understands that it's us, the player, doing this to her because she doesn't know its a game but she absolutely knows that whoever it is is not kris. we are forcing noelle to confont that it was all real, it wasn't a dream, and it finally snaps her when we put the thorn (i.e. thornring) back on her finger. we've pushed noelle to her limit, 'used up' all of who noelle originally was and forcibly turned her into another vessel for our actions.

the loss of innocence is a common trope explored in horror, but i personally feel like this is moreso focused on the loss of autonomy than the loss of innocence. ch2 is noelle murdering monsters en masse and probably being berdly's cause of death. that innocence is already gone, but innocence can take on various forms and meanings which can alter the way we perceive certain situations as more one thing than the other. the thorn is representative of our control over noelle, we force kris to pierce it back through her hand during the couch scene which cements our authority over her. i understand why people could interpret the scene as being mainly the loss of innocence, with the rose wilting it could be read like an allegory for deflowering, but i believe that the scene is moreso focused on us removing her limitations. we've overflowed the pot on the stove and now she's stronger than ever. even not on the weird route, noelle exhibits behaviours of wanting to strangle berdly and take control of her life for once, whether joking or not. she was already really fascinated by her own power in ch2, finding out that yes actually she isnt powerless and she can take things for herself, as long as she listens to kris- hence her saying 'Thank you.' towards the end of the route.

what makes weird route kriselle so interesting is that kris doesnt want this. when noelle is close to kris and she begins to trigger the downfall of events, kris is trying to cover her mouth desperately to stop her. kris wants nothing more than to keep noelle from experiencing everything all over again. it's not just kris abusing noelle torture compilation. with not only closet scene where kris is trying to hit us with the hockey stick but also the bathroom scene we see just how fucking ANGRY kris is at us- literally beating the shit out of the soul…. both in a 'why would you ever make me do this?' way but also in a 'you broke her' way.

we've taken these childhood friends with such a strong connection and forced them to rip themselves to shreds. we've broken them to their core. i don't think noelle is capable of saving kris, i don't think she wants to anymore. in the few moments she had left between the start and the end of the couch scene, she's lost that will.

noelle's now broken, she's lost herself because we took her autonomy. just like kris. a cage. a vessel. we've given her the power to take whatever she wants, we've removed her limitations, we've made her stronger.

as long as she listens to us.

------------------------------ start of edit ------------------------------

with that being said, @enuratled made some good points and connections in their reblog of my post and i want to elaborate on/include them in the main post due to wanting to ensure that im not coming off as discrediting or attempting to disprove the loss of innocence reading while explaining more of my position.

"...it's not necessarily that i disagree but I think loss of autonomy is loss of consent, loss of ability to consent and I think that's very much what the rose deflowered imagery is pointing us towards."

the loss of autonomy is the loss of consent which in turn can also mean the loss of innocence. all of these tropes and concepts are intertwined and you can't really fully separate them, although the loss of autonomy/consent/innocence doesn't always indicate a sexual connotation. my reading chooses to focus more on the psychological rather than the sexual, so i guess its just my piece of the puzzle when it comes to dissecting this. there is clearly a reading here that involves a sexual undertone because of the defloration and understandably so- this is something that happens in real life and depending on your background or perceptions may be the first thing your mind jumps to when you see this scene play out.

"it uses the same dialogue, noelle begging herself to move but being unable to, it has the rose being deflowered, it has kris forcing the ring onto her hand, it happens in her fucking bedroom! her most private space! the place where she's supposed to be the safest! she asked them to come in! in this case, the imagery of sexual assault is being used to convey the inability to consent."

a good point on the reading of csa. this makes the reading more prominent and ties it back into autonomy and consent.

"...a lot of good readings of the weird route comes hand in hand with discussions about comphet, and how dangerous it is to force these very gendered roles onto kids (or teens) who explicitly don't conform, or want to conform to these things. snowgrave, as much as it is about autonomy, power and player control, can also be read about gender and sexuality, especially with how it utilises this imagery of marriage."

ive read the hellspawnmotel analysis many times over and its one of my favourites, i think the concept is really solid and you echo the same sentiments with that here. there is clearly a strong theme of identity/gender/sexuality beneath the surface of deltarune and especially with weird route kriselle.

I understand that [c]sa is a very taboo topic, and it's not necessarily in-line with the usual host of 'dark' themes we expect to see in games like this, but that doesn't mean the narrative can't utilise the commentary that comes with it, or the imagery used for it. again, I don't think it has to be read as sexual assault, but I don't think that's an unfair or unearned reading.

i agree, it being taboo doesnt mean that the reading isn't or can't be there. i am not attempting to say 'you cant see it like this!' or 'youre wrong and im right!' because everyone is entitled to their own perceptions of a scene, especially when it is not explicitly stated or shown in the text. personally (just me, you dont need to feel the same), i feel it's just too heavy to be thrust onto us if that is the intended context with no warning. maybe thats the intention, to drop it on us with no warning like it would happen in real life, but i honestly can't see that being how it was originally intended.

i think where this scene creates so much clashing of readings is again that you cannot really separate loss of autonomy from loss of consent and loss of innocence from either. these tropes can be interpreted in different ways- sexually, psychologically, physically, etc. its up to you to decide how you want to read it. the reading of csa has a lot of evidence for it and a strong argument. i dont think its wrong, but im personally not sure that should be our main takeaway.

my main reason for why i emphasize the focus on the loss of autonomy in the way i have is that a lot of people have decided to take the reading of csa as what happens explicitly, treating this scene as if you've genuinely done this to noelle.

if this is to be taken literally like how a good chunk of the fandom is treating it unfortunately, we're the ones who are doing this to noelle and kris. these actions are our own. they're our choices. this isn't kris, its us, the player. i do not want to be responsible for the sa of noelle, i wouldnt want to play a game where im forced to commit csa. it doesn't feel right. i don't think toby would put that into deltarune directly. you can read it as csa being what happens after the screen cuts to black if you want to, but honestly thinking about the implication that i as the player forced kris to rape or deflower noelle makes me want to curl up, puke blood, and die.

i dont think anyone wants to be burdened with that. thank you to @enuratled for allowing me to use parts of their reblog in my edit, and i hope this adds a bit more context to the entire post and where i come from! everyone can read it in their own way, and i do not wish to discredit anyone by suggesting a different reading of the scene. please consider reading their additions to my post in their reblog to see everything they said, as i believe it does hold a lot of merit.

------------------------------ end of edit ------------------------------

UPDATE: rose was patched out. i feel kind of vindicated but my feelings are honestly mixed....... you can still interpret the scene how you want but i think it's pretty clear toby didn't intend for the graphic to be taken that way. sucks we had to lose the rose because of that but it's for the best considering.... theres a lot of ways that the fandom was taking the csa allegory too far and blending it with other ones which snowballed into a whole new thing and i kinda dont want to go through a year of kris misgendering and "toby fox put child rape in his game". (even though he didnt. its an allegory. one that i dont personally wish to focus on but others can at their own will.) which i think is kinda reasonable

UPDATE 2: THE VISUAL WAS CHANGED AGAIN! this time i feel like it lines up with my analysis even more and really conveys how visceral and painful it is

the way that it both shatters out from her heart to indicate we've broken noelle and extends out like blood vessels... this is us turning noelle into another vessel for our actions....

shatter effect - we've broken noelle

extending out like blood vessels - tied to the heart/SOUL and 'vessel' can be a play on vessel/cage like how we're turning noelle into a vessel

the extensions having small sharp protrusions - rose stems have thorns

idk man i think the scene is perfect

this visual is so insane i love it

[original-starwalking]

susie: what was the deal with spamton talking about freedom

ralsei: let’s not think about it too hard

the player: RALSEI IS SUS? why are you trying to hide things ralsei huh?? are you trying to deny kris their freedom???

ralsei, internally: oh god oh geez spamton couldn’t get freedom he couldn’t break free from the prophecy what if i can’t break free from the prophecy what if fate is inevitable what if everything is going to go bad and there’s nothing i can do to stop it oh gosh oh no i need to stay happy i can’t let them know i’m thinking about this