#deltarune thoughts

[everythingbrainrot]

me when I remember that a character whose normal state is being very mumbly and untalktative/strange finding more success in life when they are controlled by someone who forces them to be more confident/say things that arent exactly true to their nature/do things they're not comfortable with

and PERHAPS

potentially feels so exhausted by/opposed to/upset with being someone they're not all day, being perceived as someone they're not by those who they are close to, that they feel the need to rip this control (this facade) out of themself when they are alone just so they can do what they really want for a few minutes....

is a really good autism metaphor.

thank you kris dreemurr. no one does it like you.

[writerorlion333]

I think this all implies that humans and monsters are extremely segregated. And Susie grew up in the human side of things, to parallel how Kris grew up with monsters. Christianity likely does exist, but is exclusive to humans (only humans have "real" souls, anyone?) and the secularized version of Christmas/Halloween are culturally dominant even if Monsters aren't allowed to convert properly.

I'd guess the war between monsters v humans still happened, but the outcome wasn't sealing them away, but rather socially outcasting and demeaning them. it's possible (going into wild speculation here) human can use monsters for their increased innate magic abilities, but also prevent/discourage monsters from using their own magic for themselves. monsters may very well be an exploited second-class that have formed insular "ghettos" to avoid direct persecution. but we'll see (or we might not 🤷‍♂️).

I mean, like, sometimes I wanna try and analyze what exactly is the dynamic between Humans and Monsters in the Deltarune Timeline. Since, well, that was basically one of the most important aspects of the Undertale timeline and Deltarune so far (or maybe just Kris?) basically denies us any clarifying information in a very cheeky way.

I would really like to pour over and consider the implication of stuff like Toriel using what’s described as ‘pet shampoo’ despite the fact that furry sapient Monsters are so common in Hometown, or Noelle implying no one is mass-producing shoes for hoofed Monsters

Or the fact that Susie implies that it’s customary to dress up as a ‘monster’ for Halloween

Versus the fact that Monsters also have a concept of ‘Humans under the bed’

And there are books targeted at Monsters explaining how to take care of humans, and also the implication that Kris hasn’t really been exposed to depictions of other Humans meaning they have totally avoided them both on TV and on the internet or the fact that Susie is more surprised at the existence of Gingerbread Monsters than Gingerbread Men…

I would like to come up with some thorough analysis that reconciles all of these details into one consistent-feeling world but….

I do also have to face the fact that Christmas just… exists in the Deltarune Timeline.

Despite the dominant religion in Hometown not being Christianity, but a made-up religion based on the Delta Rune Prophecy that uses a lot of the coding and visual iconography of Christianity… But still doesn’t seem to have any clear ‘Christ’ figure?

And yet, Christmas just… exists. And it’s not a made-up Delta Rune Holiday that happens to use the same iconography and the same date, it seems to be still called ‘Christmas’. (And Halloween is still called 'Halloween' also)

So that kinda leaves me at a weird position where I’m not sure if I should start theorizing on the Delta Rune Religion having its own ‘Christ’ to have a ‘Mass’ for or if Christianity also exists in the Deltarune universe or if it’s just not that big of a deal and worrying about it too much and I'm just overthinking things... but then I don't know where to draw the line of which aspects of the Deltarune setting might be Notable and which would just be overthinking things???

[beartitled]

[stewrattius]

CHAT THIS MIGHT BE IMPORTANT FOR CHAPTER 5

When Tenna switches through a bunch of channels after the last turn in his battle, there’s a really interesting group of images that show up in the static-

Some of it’s transparent, so I took some screenshots of it in other backgrounds to compare (sorry for the red line- the only way I was able to get these frames was through my computer lol)

So here’s everything I can make out:

You’ve got expected stuff like the dreemurr house and rooms/assets from TV world, some stuff from past chapters (spiked gate from card kingdom, Sweet’s shop sprite (I think?), spamton’s shop sprites (trash heap!! you really do care), mouse bullet sprite); then some frames from the legend and chapter select, the game over screen from both Deltarune and Undertale, the Undertale battle menu, some word art that I mostly can’t make out (the ones I can make out are TEARS TEARS and BROTHER *Edit 7/15: I think the silver one is ROCK CONCERT), a block of letters or symbols that I can’t make out, two images with some green thing (maybe the recruit stand?) and some text (one also has Tenna), the delta rune and some other lines/assorted shapes, and some locations from the light world

One of which is mettaton’s house…

And there’s more interesting stuff with future events, the most notable of which is THE ROARING KNIGHT. There are 4 or 5 sprites from what I can tell (one is a slash sprite). LITERALLY LIKE LESS THAN 3 MINUTES BEFORE THEY SHOW UP.

In other words, there’s some foreshadowing potential here

There’s a purple room I don’t recognize right next to one of the knight sprites. Maybe it’s a future encounter with the knight???

Also, there’s a fiery looking city (?) next to 2 knight sprites. Not sure what to make of this but it’s pretty interesting

Anyway this may mean absolutely nothing and I could be horizontally spinning this image in HD in my brain for no reason but feel free to join the brain microwave

[danwidth]

how old do y'all think tenna is?

i hc that he has to at least be from the 90s, at most mid 80s depending on when you think asgore and toriel got married (they were nose nuzzlers champions '98 according to ut).

i don't think tenna is as antique as some make him out to be, like, from the 70s. saying this as someone who grew up with crts (and still has my childhood one). my grandparents had one that looked just like tenna, too lol

it also lines up well with spamton's spam email glory days, which was a huge problem in the 90s and 00s. i hc they met before the turn of the century, and fell out mid-late 00s. probably around when kris was in pre-k/early elementary and azzy in late elementary.

spamton seems to have contacted noelle post divorce/big shot, so probably late 00s/early 10s

that'd make the age range 30-40 for tenna, and 30-ish for spamton, since he's obvs younger being "new tech" and all (despite him also being a wash up lol)

idk i like to think about the dr timeline a lot

[kazoothing]

Anyone with a brain can accept the possibility of the Knight to be Dess, given the antlers with a similar appearance to the Holidays', the sword being briefly bat-shaped and the smugness and sassiness it has that would be strange to relate to Carol. As many others pointed out, the poses they strike bear some resemblance to Kris', such as the finger pointing and standing with their backs turned to the player; the reasoning behind this seems to be perhaps Dess would do this in the past and Kris, looking up to her, would mimic her actions.

So why would my little rat brain believe in the possibility that Kris could still be the Knight, despite them both appearing on-screen AT THE SAME TIME. Maybe the Knight is actually the living embodiment of Kris' desires, using darkness to form the body. The antlers would not only represent their desire to fit in but also perhaps their wanting to be with the Holidays instead of the Dreemurrs. The reason why the Knight would strike similar poses to Kris is because it was a reflection of them.

This has been your fellow idiot going made about a fictional video game.

[dreamycecil]

A Theory on How Dark Worlds Work

SPOILERS FOR DELTARUNE CHAPTERS 3+4!!!

Something I haven't really thought about until I played the new chapters 3 and 4 is how dark worlds actually work in relation to the light world and what it means for the "denizens" of the dark worlds.

I saw some post earlier today that was speculating on what happens to the darkners once the lightners leave (or even seal the dark fountain). Do they continue to exist and percieve everything as normal? Do they get stuck in a limbo until lightners return?

Here's my theory on how it works.

Dark Worlds From a Lightner's Perspective

Dark worlds, as mentioned by Ralsei in chapter 3, are basically places in the light world that are so dark, it essentially has "negative" amount of light covering it. And, once it is covered by this "negative" light, something strange happens to ordinary objects in that place.

Suddenly, they become "alive" and gain a sort of consciousness. But these objects don't just come to live, these objects are specifically patterned after the lightner who created the fountain (and by extension, the dark world), as mentioned by Ralsei again in chapter 4.

I don't know how this "negative" light is possible within the Deltarune universe and what the dark fountains actually consist of but for now I'm just going to assume that it's just something that exists as a fact within the universe. Something that the Undertale universe lacks, for example.

Darkners: Who Are They?

Now, I still don't really know how dark worlds can differ from person to person but my simple understanding of this is that the objects that become darkners in that specific dark world are created based on the perception of said objects by a lightner. This means that if a lightner has no personal connection to an object (or especially a negative reaction towards it), the darkner that gets created from it may end up being totally unpredictable or even harmful towards the lightners, like with the statues from Gerson's study.

Dark Worlds From a Darkner's Perspective

Anyway, regardless of which darkners end up populating the dark world, the dark worlds themselves are very interesting on their own. I think that dark worlds are some sort of "mirrors" of the light world that may or may not exist parallel to the light world to the point where darkners can experience everything that's happening to them (or rather their light world counterparts) in real time, as evident by different dialogue in chapter 3 (more specifically from Ramb and Tenna).

Dark worlds are not a kind of pocket dimension that you can create "entrances" to, neither parallel universes that exist on their own alongside the light world. All dark worlds are essentially interconnected together and exist entirely within the same light world. Whenever there isn't a dark world, all objects that may become darkners are simply puppets with no free will (which is another whole theory that I won't delve in) that still experience everything that's happening around them but without any way to react to it until a dark fountain in their vicinity is opened.

What About Ralsei And His Castle Town?

Great question! The answer is: I don't actually know. Right now, halfway through the game, we don't have all the answers, and this is one of the things that still boggles my mind that I cannot explain.

Let's start with Ralsei. Regardless of Ralsei's origins he's still a darkner. But he seems to be way more than just a regular darkner based on random light world objects perceived by random lightners. We simply don't know his whole deal yet but he seems to be very important in terms of guiding the Fun Gang through the prophecy and, personally, he sorta acts as the main "guide" to everything related to dark worlds (otherwise who knows what Kris and Susie would do in them without explanation of the prophecy).

His castle town is very similar in that sense. It feels like the main "hub" for all the darkners to settle in, so they can continue "existing" in the real world even without the lightners' presence. I have no idea how it came into existence, why its dark fountain is fine to keep at all times compared to any other dark world (something to do with the prophecy I think; I'm an Undertale fan, I can't read) and why it is all inside a freaking school closet. But it seems like one of those places that makes darkners feel more alive and autonomous compared to being ordinary soulless objects.

Dark Worlds During The Roaring

(some time after making this post I realized another thing about the dark worlds and added it here)

I suddenly remembered about the roaring as well and was wondering how it also affects the dark world(s) as it's happening. When Ralsei revealed them in chapter 2, he said that if multiple fountains are opened in a dark world, it would bring the roaring. And with that, all the darkners will turn into statues, just like some of them already do in other dark worlds.

This made me think about two extra things explained below.

Darkners Turning Into Statues

Why do darkners turn into stone in other dark worlds?

I think this has something to do with the aforementioned lightner's perception of the objects. Perhaps when darkners are "created" by a specific lightner and they go into a dark world created by another lightner, this is when they turn into statues because they simply don't belong in that specific dark world anymore, as explained by Ralsei.

Why the darkners don't change in their shape depending on the new dark world when going there is unknown to me. Maybe they retain their shape depending on the lightner that brought them into another dark world? Somehow I have the feeling that this specific bit will never be officially explained in future chapters but that remains to be seen.

Why do darkners turn into stone during the roaring?

My theory is that darkners turn into statues during the roaring for the exact same reason as explained above. But with a little twist! You see, when more than one dark fountain is created in one place, wouldn't that mean that there would technically be multiple dark worlds in one place? Maybe, maybe not. But multiple fountains definitely affect each other in some kind of way, perhaps engulfing the dark world in even more darkness than before (dark, darker, yet darker). This makes me think that during these moments, the darkners try to stick to a specific dark fountain/world but are split between all of them at once, essentially rendering them "unfit" for the entire dark world, which ends up turning them into stone until they "return" to their original dark world.

Time Dialation Theory

Another thing that I was wondering about as soon as I began playing the new chapters is the fact that each dark world seems to already be established in some way, even after being created seconds ago.

My theory is that whenever lightners are absent from the dark worlds, the events that occur in them happen at their own pace, i.e. much faster than in the light world. Or maybe even occur according to the lightner's perception of these objects, essentially setting up a story with these darkners right there and then. This could explain how Queen or Tenna immediately "took over" their respective dark worlds and established their presence there with the Queen being the ruler of the "Cyber World" and Tenna being the host of the show that is being produced and filmed all over the place.

The same thing could be happening in Ralsei's castle town too, otherwise I really can't explain how he's so fast at transforming it, making rooms and housing everyone.

Or maybe the events in dark worlds are set up/progressed as soon as more darkners show up? That would explain the beginning of chapter 2 where the castle town immediately transforms as soon as Kris brings everyone from the first dark world, even imprisoning the King in the process. It's like while the lightners are out of the dark worlds, the story of each individual darkner is "cached" until next time they become darkners again. And maybe the story is also adjusted on the fly according to the lightner's perception to fit the previously paused narrative.

I don't really have a meaningful explanation to that last one but I tried my best.

Just felt like sharing my thoughts on this.

[thecoolerhuntermaximoff]

The Nature of W.D Gaster, the Royal Scientist

Today we'll be serving dark roast with some Olympic chocolate muffins, and a dive into the Darker, yet Darker.

A R E Y O U T H E R E ?

A R E Y O U L I S T E N I N G ?

OK, at this point it's undeniable that Gaster is involved in Undertale and Deltarune. But I have so much fun putting little pieces of evidence together to string conclusions of Gaster's appearance and who he really is.

So, this post isn't gonna go over the obvious Gaster stuff (the Gaster Followers, Gaster's Theme, room_gaster and Entry 17, Deltarune), but rather take even more damning pieces of evidence and putting them together to create new theories about who Gaster really is.

Gaster is the Mystery Man

Mystery Man carries that Gaster vibe. Yes, that's an actual point. But the shape of the eyes, and the strange coat-like body invoke a scholarly character, perfectly fitting the bill of a Royal Scientist like Wing Gaster.

Moreover, the piece of Gaster in the second Gaster Follower's hand bears a resemblance to the Mystery Man's face, fancy the noise in room_gaster being known as mus_smile, implying Gaster's relation to smiles and such. Mystery Man looks pretty smiley to me.

And the most damning piece of evidence is that Gaster's unused stats in the game files repeat the numeric 666, which is not only Gaster's value numeric for his typeface in room_gaster, but 66 is the FUN value that'll summon the Mystery Man room.

And at this point Mystery Man is way more recognizable than [REDACTED] as Gaster's iconography.

Gaster is somehow related to Sans and Papyrus

OK, BUT LIKE HEAR ME OUT---IT WOULD BE REALLY SHOCKIN' COOL.

Gaster talks in a distinctive typeface being Wingdings, as does Sans and Papyrus, with their typefaces being. . .comic sans and Papyrus respectively. So it wouldn't be too far off if they were related.

Not to mention if Gaster built the CORE it would explain Papyrus' flare for complex puzzles and elaborate mechanisms like the Gauntlet of Deadly Terrors, and Sans' knowledge of science.

Gaster is an aberration to the Undertale universe

Gaster's association with the number of the beast paints him as sort of a devilish entity, but Ralsei also has a lot of demonic allusions (the goat often representing the Devil + the red horns) and he's a perfectly good boy. With how 666 is often highlighted as a societal sacrilege that must remain unspoken, it's possible Gaster isn't a demon, but rather an aberration in the timeline.

That's why if Gaster's name is entered in Undertale or Deltarune in the naming sequence, the game resets. Gaster's been so detached from the timespace continuum of Undertale, he's become a sort of blasphemy, his own existence has become an aberration that the timeline must fix by a hard RESET.

What is Gaster's role in Deltarune?

At this point it's undeniable that Wing Gaster the Royal Scientist is prevalent in Deltarune. The voice in the prologue of Chapter 1 bears the same speech patterns as Gaster does in room_gaster, and the allusions to the content of Entry 17 in the game are rampant.

Not to mention that during the prologue, the track ANOTHER_HIM plays, which is literally a remix of Gaster's Theme which is known as mus_st_him in the game files, carrying the same leitmotif and everything! And furthermore, before Deltarune came fully into form, the website bore this heavily darkened image;

WHICH IS A LITERAL EXCERPT FROM ROOM_GASTER'S ENTRY NUMBER SEVENTEEN. GASTER IS ABSOLUTELY IN DELTARUNE, AND THIS IS JUST INSANE, AND PEOPLE STILL DARE DENY HIS PREVALENCE?

But what truly is Gaster's role in Deltarune? Is he a friendly face who guides the heroes on? Or. . .is he something far sinister? A 666-coded, creepily smiling amoral scientist orchestrating lives and deaths for his own knowledge, who drove formerly thriving citizens to insanity?

Well, I don't think Gaster's a malicious entity, at least not entirely. Yeah, the relation to the 666 numeric is rather concerning, but take into account what I mentioned that it doesn't mean Gaster is necessarily demonic, but rather an aberration that the world of Undertale cannot fathom.

From what we've gathered so far, Gaster plays the SOUL's guide, allowing them to design their own Vessel, until it's cut abruptly by [TOTALLY CHARA], who represents the antagonistic principles in Deltarune of "your choices don't matter, and no one can choose in this world".

This second voice doesn't seem to be Gaster as the Prophecy in Chapter 1 leaves the first hero very ambiguous and undefined, suggesting that the Vessel was intended to be the first hero before [Absolutely Chara] slam dunked that [SOUL] into Kris.

And considering the SOUL is needed to dispel Dark Fountains, and thus, the Roaring, fulfilling the Prophecy and spelling the Knight's undoing, it's clear Gaster's on the heroes' side, and clearly wants the Prophecy fulfilled which would save the world.

But how virtuous really is he? He drove Jevil and Spamton insane, and that's not a very good look for him.

Well. . .to be fair, Jevil seems to be fine for the most part, and his ramblings made him an enemy of Card Castle, which is a place influenced by the Knight---being imprisoned did technically free him from the Knight's thrall.

And Spamton? Well, it's possible that his former prosperity had come from an ungodly deal with the Knight, and later on. . .HE was used up. Gaster is the one who caused him to suddenly invest in the NEO form, which would grant him freedom from his destiny and the thrall of the Knight. It seems Gaster is helping, but doing a measurable amount of harm in the process.

I wouldn't want Gaster to be the devil himself, a completely rapacious and deplorable villain with no morals---but more like a Miguel O'Hara or Cecil Stedman, a character who's mostly friendly and heroic but has to make the hard choices with his foot down and that gets in the heroes' way. Wait. . .sort of like Ralsei, keeping crucial information from the Fun Gang---like a sacrifice of some sorts in the Prophecy---because he doesn't want them to get hurt, choosing only himself to get hurt instead.

Gaster must've taken it upon himself to fulfill the prophecy by directly engineering the third hero Ralsei as a disposable guide, calling upon the SOUL to fill the bill of the first hero (and engineer a Vessel before that was sabotaged by [Chara trust]), and the second hero had to have been Dess Holiday before she was captured and replaced with Susie.-

It's entirely possible that because the Dark Worlds are moreso a reconstruction of reality through the power of shadow, Ralsei is a manifestation of Kris' subconscious desire to fit into their family. But that doesn't really seem to be a huge part of Kris' character and it makes even less sense when you take into account that Kris was probably never even supposed to be here.

(. . .What if Ralsei was modeled after Asriel because Gaster wanted to model the third hero off the second hero's presumed boyfriend? That'd be a funny sight, innit?)

OK, but we're getting off track.

Gaster is one of my favorite Undertale characters and he hasn't appeared for squat. But his mysteriousness and his personality has consumed the Undertale fandom and made people like myself obsess over him, his mystery, his true nature, who he really is. But I think we know a good bit already and hopefully my predictions come true when Deltarune is fully realized.

[the-irreverend]

AAAAAAAHHHHHHH watching Kris flee out of the room when they find out we're with them KILLS ME every damn time, and perhaps the detail that hurts the most is how their expression changes and how that adds a new understanding to how Kris sees us.

The moment they realize they and Noelle are in terrible danger, the netrual, reserved expression we're so used to seeing from them changes into one of ABSOLUTE TERROR as they flee out of the room; terror which I firmly believe is rooted in the psychological, emotional, and physical trauma we have caused them and Noelle.

The things we made them do in the Snowgrave/Weird Route made them realize just how much harm we're capable of causing them and the people they care about, and how great our capacity for evil truly is. They already resent us for depriving them of their agency, and now that they've endured us abusing said agency in the worst possible way, their hatred and fear of us has increased a thousandfold.

Deltarune isn't some cute little otherworldly adventure; it's a goddam cosmic horror story, except the twist is we're the eldritch being that brings ruin and madness wherever we go.

[patchwork-crow-writes]

I'm thinking about the Fun Gang's "special talents", and how they're not really all that special anymore.

Kris was the only party member who could ACT, or direct their teammates to act - through that, they were the ones who set the tempo of battle, they alone were the ones who could placate enemies and allow them to be spared.

Ralsei was the only party member who could heal, and had an alternate way to spare enemies using Pacify. Though he is the weakest of the group, his powers are instrumental in keeping the team healthy, and he alone is the only one who can peacefully put an end to Jevil's rampage in chapter 1.

Susie is the best party member at FIGHTing - she hits like a truck, and her Rude Buster is as versatile as it is powerful. She alone carries the team where FIGHTing is the most optimal course of action, putting foes like King in their place in record time, and she alone is the best at shattering Queen's Acid Barrier in her fight.

Now, each individual member of the party can ACT, though not to the extent that Kris can. Susie is learning to heal, though not to the extent that Ralsei can. And soon, I feel that Ralsei will be able to turn his prodigious magical talent towards inflicting big damage on foes, though perhaps not to the extent that Susie can.

Deltarune is about the roles we are forced into and that define us, and learning that we can break out of them and become our own people. But those roles are just as much security blankets as they are prisons - there is comfort in knowing that you can be relied upon for a special talent you possess - something that no-one else can do, something that you alone are valued for. And moving away from that can be scary. It can feel like you don't matter. After all, if everyone else can do what you do, even if they can't quite do it as well as you... then what can you meaningfully do for your friends, for the people who are counting on you?

...do they even need you anymore...?

[ceceilum]

Toriel slander trending again? Color me shocked

I’m not even a little surprised to see Toriel (a maternal figure) suddenly getting backlash across multiple platforms.

The Dreemurr family dynamic in UT is already emotionally dense the more you sit with it, but Toriel, while often beloved is still often flattened in fandom into a one-dimensional “overprotective mom” trope. At first glance? Sure. But there’s so much more going on there.

One thing I think fandom consistently overlooks is that Toriel Dreemurr is severely depressed. And that’s something she actually shares with Sans (beyond their shared love of puns)

We know from UT that Toriel didn’t abandon her people right after the death of her children. She stayed. She left only when Asgore declared war. That’s what broke her. Even Flowey tells us that Toriel retrieved Chara’s body and gave them a proper burial before isolating herself in the Ruins. There, she ends up caring for not one, but six more human children. And ends up carrying six more deaths.

And yet when we, as Frisk, fall into the Ruins, Toriel is still kind. Still warm. Still trying. She tries to keep her distance, but ultimately she cares too much. She begs us to stay. She fights us, but if we spare her, she lets us go. Like?? That’s already a deeply complex character.

We also know from Gerson that she was once a serious ruler. And then you have the nose nuzzling championship trophy at Asgore’s house. She’s loving. She’s strict. She’s grieving. She’s lost almost everything, but she never stops trying to love.

But it’s in DR where we finally get to see Toriel outside the grief.

She has college memories. A social history. She’s described by Rudy as “fuzzy n’ sweet on the outside, a TOTAL NUT on the inside.” She can be judgmental (whose mom isn’t, honestly?) but we also see how much she cares about Kris. She reads parenting books. She becomes the primary caregiver after her separation from Asgore. She’s doing her best while juggling divorce, a full-time job, and a household.

And yeah, she misses stuff. Like the bullying. But if you’ve ever known a single working mom IRL, this is very real.

Parents can love you deeply and still not know everything happening in your world. Especially teens like Kris, who are actively withdrawing.

And then Chapter 4 hits.

People are divided on the ending, but I think it was brilliant. We go from high stakes cosmic weirdness back to Kris’s reality.

Their mom is having fun… without them. And it HURTS.

But that’s not the full picture. That’s Kris’s perspective.

If you’re a teen of divorce, or any kid with a single parent who finally starts to move on, yeah, It sucks. It feels like a betrayal. Because you can’t yet see the complexity. You can’t understand that your mom is her own person, trying to find joy again.

Because to you, she’s just your mom. And you feel left behind.

tl;dr: Toriel is one of the most layered characters in the Undertale/Deltarune universe. She’s grieving, trying, sometimes failing, always loving. She doesn’t deserve the hate, if anything she deserves empathy.

[cat-mermaid]

Deltarune brain dump:

earlier this week

SMASHCUT TO THIS FUCKING MORNING:

*me in bed*

haha i hate math :)

*lyrics to Raise Up Your Bat on loop in brain*

ark

ark

....arc?

hwah?

no stop brain i don't wanna do th-

I SAID STOP BRAIN

OK BRAIN YOU CAN STOP NOW

ENOUGH BRAIN!!! STOP!!!!

MAKE IT STOP

*UPDATE*

OH SHIT OH FUCK

[twilightofthesandwiches]

Honestly, Toby Fox's friend was so real........ I literally finished Deltarune Chapters 3 + 4 a few hours ago and I'm constantly finding myself thinking "I miss Tenna....."

[babybluey]

Parents, Freedom and how Carol Holiday has been present since the beginning

Carol is already climbing up there as my favorite character in chapter 4, if not of the whole game, and we literally just met her lol

But because of this I’ve been thinking about her a lot… and I realized that she’s been foreshadowed since literally the beginning of the game and it’s driving me actually insane.

Like, since the very first chapter, the bosses have all had this thing where they’re just incredibly shitty parents. And when they’re not parents they’re just incredibly shitty irresponsible adults.

In chapter 1 we meet king, a tyrannical ruler who doesn’t think twice about using his young son to further his own ends, and is a slimey coward to fakes remorse to take advantage of ralsei’s good nature.

This trend continues in chapter 2: Queen is an overbearing mother that, while genuinely wanting to do good for the lightners, assumes herself as smarter than them and forces all her decisions on them with no thoughg on whether they even agree.

Tenna is a bit more shaky, but since the TV dark world was created by Kris, I think Tenna is either:

        ⁃       representing kris’ repressed trauma and loneliness over now being alone in a once warm and lively house, wanting to get those days back (Tenna child of divorce memes are so real)

        ⁃       More generally Tenna acts like a very troubled parents who uses their kids (the lightners) as emotional support and validation instead of actually dealing with his own insecurities and problems, alienating them in the process

I personally think both of these observations are true.

The titan’s in chapter 4 also produce children versions of themselves, though I think that’s pushing it as the titan is more if a force of distruction than a character.

But who do we get introduced in chapter 4 who fits this theme? Carol Holiday that beautiful soul

The MOMENT, I swear, THE MOMENT SHE WALKS IN, THE WHOLE ATMOSPHERE CHANGES IN A DIME. It’s crazy, we’ve met tyrannical rulers and wire-mind controlling dictators, and we were forced to live the TV apocalypse by a man child, but this random, average, boring everyday woman is the single most hatable character in the whole game.

Because the tyrant, the dictator, the manchild, THEY ARE ALL HER!

Since chapter 1, we’ve been establishing this oppressive parental force in the form of the bosses, they’ve all been terrible but ultimately, before ch 4, it’s all been a game, you could defeat them. You can’t defeat Carol, she isn’t a game. Her mere presence is a blizzard. The adults don’t take her seriously, but Noelle, her own daughter, is terrified of her. Her whole character arc in ch 2 was standing up to Queen, but she can’t even look her own mother in the eye.

When it was revealed her and Kris are working together my jaw actually dropped. Because it means she’s been involved in the plot since the very beginning, even though we could never see her. If she’s the knight (which I don’t think she is, but this can’t be dismissed) it wouldn’t be out of pocket that the chapter bosses have been manifesting as they are because of her disposition, since chapter 4 establishes that the lighter that creates a fountain DOES influence the behavior and appearance of the darkners in some way.

Hey, this can work even if the knight is dess (which I believe), because she could be projecting her feelings of her mother on them as she’s making the fountains, intentionally or not.

And like… what better way to represent the game’s theme of denied choices, of having only one path you can follow through regardless of whether it’s actually good for you, of whether it’s beneficial at all, of whether you want it, than through an oppressive parent?

Like, being born is literally the shittiest gamble of all. You need to beg on your hands and knees that you’re gonna end up with decent enough people as your caretakers, because Jesus Christ, if they’re not, you’re FUCKED.

You can obviously still have a great life, but your parents will affect your life FOREVER, you have a part with them with you wherever you go, every single little action from them can cause a shift in you inexperienced soaking child brain that affects your ENTIRE LIFE. And that’s just the people, the economic status they come with can be even more deterministic of the kind of life you can have, most people will stay in the exact social class as their parent. Throughout history you’d have the same exact job as your parent, regardless of your talents or passions.

And goddamn, Carol SUCKS, and she’s obvious she’s got kris right where she wants them. I struggle and won’t put a definition on them yet, since the nature of their relationship is so vague, but I really don’t blame people for interpreting it as grooming, it does NOT look good. Even if kris was super on board on whatever the plan is, it’s obvious that they’re relationship with Susie and Ralsei is deeply affecting them and they not be so keen on going on with everything anymore, but they can’t do anything about it, with or without soul, they’re never free, there’s only 1 path.

I don’t think Carol is going to be complitely unredeemable, she could have very sympathetic motives, but her actions have an horrible effect of every single character in story. Like bro literally all the major characters have parents issues in some way!!!! And all the parents, while good people, fail to properly relate and understand them.

All of them except one: the Old Man.

Since his earliest scenes, this old turtle has proven to be the next best thing to warm bread. He’s so amazing he makes me cry.

He’s a happy, wise, truly free person that doesn’t need anything else from life, and wants the kids to be as fulfilled as he is, but, and this is important: THROUGH THEIR OWN MERITS.

He knows the kids need help, and he gives it to them, but not by imposing his views on them, or acting like he knows better just because he’s older, he knows the kids are smart and he lets them come to their own conclusion naturally.

He encourages them all throughout the chapter to not follow a prophecy just because it has been written, that they can write their own story, that’s the beauty of stories! He’s the FIRST character to suggest that the prophecy doesn’t have to be followed, and he himself as a character is a complete coincidence! He wasn’t meant to appear, since as the representation of a loved one he can only present himself in extremely specific circumstances, but now that he’s there he’s not gonna make any moment go to waste, he’s gonna guide these kids and make amends with his son regardless of the fact he’s literally dead and it wasn’t meant to be!

His appearance could legit be the catalyst for the prophecy being destroyed and it was all an accident. I’m obsessed with it.

There’s also the whole thing with Susie and her freedom, and how that so easily also corresponds to teenage rebellion to authority, she’s writing her own life dammit!!! Fuck you mom!!!! Fuck you society!!!!

This could have been the same for Dess as well at first, before it turned into a more negative, destructive, and selfish kind of freedom, but this is more speculative.

I’m so fucking excited for how this whole thing gets explored, there are so many possibilities and they’re all peak. The lighters could team with knight Dess to defeat Carol, or maybe Carol and the Knight are working together with Kris, or maybe Kris and Carol are working AGAINST the knight but for different reasons that the heroes, it’s all so hype.

These are my two cents but I love stories that take the small, private and personal and turn it into a metaphor for larger, more philosophical themes and I’m so glad deltarune is looking to be one of those stories. 

Susie kill that hag.

[sunny-boooo]

So, a lot of people are already pointing out that the Susie from the prophecy is different from the Susie we know. I want to put out a "theory" (more like general thoughts) on what I think it means.

Through Chapter 4, Ralsei mentions on how every word on the prophecy will become true; and every other citizen of the town also seem to believe so, they think everything written down will go as it says, everything was predetermined from the beggining.

And while most of it did indeed become reality in the other chapters, one person still defies it's words. Susie. In the prophecy she holds a sword, yet she wields an axe; Ralsei mentions how she was supposed to wear ribbons, yet she refuses to in reality.

What that means, in my opinion, is that in fact, the prophecy CAN be changed, Susie already did it, even in subtle ways, she has changed her destiny, that is reinforced by how she says she feels like she finally has a choice on how she can express herself around people.

Deltarune's whole theme is that you have no choice over your actions, that you have no control, but Susie goes agains that theme, she chooses how she will deal with situations, if she acts or not, that's all up to her, constantly even going against the players choices.

Whatever is at the end of the prophecy (most likely something among the lines of one of them, probably Susie, losing their life), it can be changed. While everyone thinks they have to follow everything by design, Susie still stands, she fights for her autonomy.

I think that when the moment comes, either Susie, against all odds, will be able to change the end and write her own future or will inspire Kris and Ralsei to stand up for themselfs, and together they'll find a way NO ONE has to go.

[kazoothing]

I think Deltarune has made me way too suspicious of everything. Like what do you mean 'the cage, with human soul and parts'. I can see this as reinforcing how Kris (the cage) and the player (soul) are different beings but what do you mean 'human parts'. Why is 'parts' put with 'soul'. Is this to hint at how not only Kris' soul isn't theirs, neither is their body?? Is it to imply that Kris received their body or 'parts' through unnatural means?? Or am I insane and looking too much into stuff and Toby only chose that wording being it sounded cool and rhymed.