#The problem isn't ships or AUs or exploring interesting dynamics the problem is it being SO PREVALENT --

[elevatourism]

God okay I don't normally complain about petty fandom problems or whatever but I just got a poll from a tag on my dash on if two characters are dating that literally one of them canonically HATES and is outright extremely rude to the other who did nothing and it overwhelmingly voted they were. This is not a cutesy baby and a tsundere one of them is just fucking awful to them for no reason YOU GUYS HAVE TO STOP CARING ABOUT CHARACTERS JUST BECAUSE YOU DECIDED THEY SHOULD BE SHIPPED TOGETHER

CARE ABOUT CHARACTERS OUTSIDE OF BEING A SHIP THEY ALREADY HAVE THEIR OWN STORY AND EVERYTHING STOP CONTRIBUTING TO THE EXTREMELY REDUCTIVE PRACTICE OF TAKING AWAY ALL CHARACTER DEPTH AND STORY BECAUSE TWO CHARACTERS STAND NEXT TO EACH OTHER

[thecoolerliauditore]

There was like, a very brief period where there was a few 'jimmy cheated on scott' fics. I guess I know why now. Personally it makes me uncomfy for two mains reason: 1) Its a wholly made up scenario just to make Jimmy the toxic one. 2) I can really only personally see it as a Scott narrative. You know, That Type of Ex who says 'no' when someone says they want to break up. (And 3) they tend to tag the cheating ship as the ship and personally it's a bit upsetting to be looking up a ship and get a fic where they're cheaters and its all about this other character overcoming them, but that's a personal ick thing and they are using the tagging system correctly technically, its more a problem with there being no way to differentiate those types of ship tags from each other. It's just a bit personally upsetting to see a fic tagged with your ship and also 'happy ending' but the happy ending is them falling apart and unhappy which makes the cheated on party happy with no warning that's what it meant. Rambling, sorry...)

I think if you wanna interpret Jimmy as toxic y'ought to focus on the post-relationship period (honestly I feel this way about fh in general, nothing in their brief time together is nearly as interesting as their time after reacting to their ex to me) cause you could make a case for Jimmy being unnecessarily hostile and not wishing Scott well at all. (This I think works best if the relationship was toxic cause then you have a guy going to the opposite extreme in reply to a bad relationship, but works just as well Jimmy being That Ex that always says their ex was crazy that Scott also play in DL)

Personally I don't think there's a good faith way to dig into the thing Jimmy might have done wrong while ignoring the more obvious things Scott did wrong, but exploration is the point of fanfics and AUs. And I've read fics where people make Scott out to be Jimmy's only supporter in DL while everyone else bullied him and completely rewrote entire scenes to make Scott the hero, so you know, clearly a market for rewriting Scott's character specifically.

But my go to for toxic Jimmy in the context of fh is him being neglectful. Jimmy's always been half-hearted about the dynamic, including reframing it in his e1 pov, I think it isn't much of a stretch to elaborate that into full on getting into a relationship he wasn't enthusiastic about to begin with and the few things he does to contribute being token gestures. Maybe Jimmy tends to think the worst of the things Scott does and assume he's being condescended to (I think this works especially well if you want to make one or both autistic, cause it's very easy to read Scott's tone as such if you aren't on his wave length and Jimmy is very easily offended especially later on). I think maybe some wouldn't like that just because it requires having Jimmy not be enthusiastic about being with Scott, though.

If you interpret Scott as Aro and Jimmy as Ace, also, you can make an argument for them just doing all the wrong things and that building up resentment between them where neither want to do anything the other wants to do and that barrier of miscommunication only growing until it collapses in on them both.

But yeah, I personally have trouble not making both of them toxic if Jimmy is going to be toxic, but again most exploration fics focus in on one thing, so...

^^^for the other anon

I actually don't read much fic but yeah this makes sense to me. FYI i think the "cheating" read comes from people interpreting him and Scott as not fully broken up during the events of post-3L because there's never really a formal "we're not together anymore" announcement. But yeah looking for something for your ship and having it turn out to be a cheating fic is WILD LMAO

I don't vibe with a lot of this because I'm not fun BUT the aro scott/ace jimmy part is awesome I'm glad that seems to be catching on.

[mobblespsycho100]

I feel like I gotta elaborate a bit on my aglanaxa thoughts (not in a coherent way though cuz im writing this quickly at 1 am. sorry).

thankfully tumblr is pretty chill w/ the ship unlike twt but im going to put it under a readmore even if it ends up being short just cuz sometimes sharing thoughts that are very real to me but probably unpopular is scary. anyway-

i must admit i have only an inkling of hi3 knowledge, like . very very small knowledge and Therefore I don't know Anaxa's Su inspirations or Aglaea's Eden / Aponia (?)'s inspirations all that well so im solely gonna be talking abt them in the context of hsr

So first of all our first hint at them having some silly dynamic going on was in the hoyolab post featuring Aglaea that kind of went over her day to day, her duties, her aspirations, and just interactions with the other Chrysos heirs (very good post btw its so funny she runs the world wide web...)

and then theres Anaxa's sarcastic comment about "I must bow to Aglaea when it comes to acting" which is just intriguing to me like ok what beef do they have? and then Aglaea going "hes being too modest"

the fact that their relationship can be interpreted in a lot of ways just from this Smidgen of interaction is so funny to me. You can call them frenemies, siblings, rivals, whatever. but these two have beef enough to joke / banter / sarcastically poke at one another on a public forum.

we also know Anaxa's whole thing is that he disrespects the gods. Aglaea who is the leader of the Chrysos heirs who rallys them with Tribbie to Believe in the prophecy , and the faith in the Titans and Chrysos heirs being what makes the whole journey viable in the first place and then here comes Anaxa going "yeah this is bs" and actively opposing that the prophecy is truth is soooo. oh my gosh. sick and twisted things going on.

and then theres of course the fact that Cerces and Mnestia have that divine yuri going on, they're the lovers, creator and creation who's love is famous throughout Amphoreus and the bearer / heirs of their coreflames absolutely hating each other is so fun.

So when I say I ship them I really don't mean it in a theyre sooo lovey dovey or romantic sense though that can be fun to explore in an au but rather these two are so divorced and aromantic and so weird abt each other . like . they definitely were in some kinda situationship or qpr situation before breaking it off and making it the problem of everyone that no one wants them to meet up.

Anaxa mentioning Aglaea a bunch as like an insufferable woman who hates him so so much and then when they meet he was like man i wasnt even thinking abt u. fake idgafer???

And then Aglaea saying that Hyacine really is Anaxa's student its soo... waaa... man. child of divorceeee

I don't think these two actually /hate/ each other but theyre not yearning for each other either this isn't a situation where both of them are like pursuing each other in terms of romantic interest but because they recognize that they both have their own merits and way of doing things, they listen to each other because they understand things that they can't tell anyone else like . Aglaea going "tsk tsk silly child who knows nothing" at Anaxa or whatever but she knows them so well and Anaxa calling Aglaea cold-hearted but at the end still hears her out at least a little bit. mutual respect and also distance . its so goodd maan...

also they both got something going on with their sense of perception like Aglaeas golden thread and eyes . and Anaxa being one eyed and possibly being a walking corpse vs Aglaea losing humanity like. parallels. GOODNESS im not making sense anyway we need more divorce dynamics i think theyre fun . these two are . so mwahmwah i need to see their gradual falling out itd be so fun. I'm also still hitting both of them with the aromantic beam I think the contrast of Cerces and Mnestia being lovers and these two feeling little to no romantic attraction is toooo tasty . love when characters have complex baggage with each other like lets unpack all that in therapy babes !!!

[sunriseverse]

soooo how DO u write fem aus that don't feel stilted and ooc? :O

hello anon i owe you my LIFE thank you for asking <3 this is a topic i have a lot of feelings on. i'm not like, the One True Fem AU Rules Maker, obviously, but i think that having a multitude of fem au fics and getting praised on my ability to write canon male characters in character in fem aus gives me the right to have some thoughts on the topic.

okay, to start with: my complaints on things that i've spent over a decade running into. historically, i've found that fem aus tend to have a couple persistent problems across fandoms (and i do mean across fandoms—i've seen these in everything from massive fandoms like marvel, middling ones like pacrim, and tiny cnovels). in my experience, usually they boil down into two flavours: "that's not [xyz character], that's a female oc with his name slapped on" and "oh, you just have no idea how most real sapphics live, do you?". oftentimes these two are entwined; it makes for an off-putting, often cringe-inducing experience as a lesbian trying to read something that's supposedly meant to speak to my experiences—and this is a shame, because often the concept of whatever the fic's plot is is pretty interesting!

(i should specify that i have no experience with het shipping for fem aus—when i say “fem au” i mean all parties romantically and/or sexually involved are women* and that the dynamic is a sapphic and/or lesbian one. also i haven’t seen (much) het shipping with r63 since i started to aggressively curate my online experience—though i remember when i was younger it was often a way for fanfic authors to get around the squeamishness of shipping two men.)

the "that's an oc with a canon name" problem: this is the one i see the most often. for reasons i cannot fathom (i can. it's misogyny), a lot of people writing fem aus come off as, rather than writing "what if these men were women", instead writing the idea of male characters as Women, since, as we all know, Those Soft Pink Women are an entirely different class than Big Strong Men. it's gender essentialism, to be blunt—sure, not an insidious manifestation of it, but one which reinforces misogynistic, sexist stereotypes nonetheless. instead of considering ways a character's traits would remain as a woman, they're reduced to Idea Of Woman. i should specify—i'm not saying that men and women don't often have different lived experiences, especially when it comes to gendered social expectations and what's permitted/not permitted by society. but what often gets missed is that a lot of things can remain the same. you've met a gnc woman, haven't you? i'm not going to get into specific things like "should you change a character's name in a fem au?" because i think that in a lot of cases you can make arguments either way; my point is that, if a character is stubborn and argumentative as a man, why can't they be as a woman? if they're toxic as a man, or passive-aggressive, or intensely emotional, what stops a female version of them being like that?

(and to go on a tangent, of course, if you keep these "unfeminine" traits, you instantly have the opportunity to do some really fun exploration—if this character is one who actively tries to conform to their gender as a man, how do they handle this? how do the people around them treat them differently (or not!) for being "unfeminine" in personality? assuming, of course, that those traits are even considered unfeminine; it's very cultural.)

a note i'd like to add here is that, if you want to keep a character from being ooc as a woman, it's a good idea to keep their dynamic(s) with key characters in canon as canon-typical as possible. of course, this isn't always going to be possible; sometimes, dynamics are a certain way because of gendered presuppositions/assumptions, but that, too, can be something that makes it feel more real! however, i should say that, generally, if you're making a slash ship femslash, unless there's a very compelling reason (and i've almost never run into one), keeping their canon dynamic as best as possible will make not only their relationship, but the characters themselves feel more in character.

the "have you ever met an actual sapphic" problem: this one, i'll emphasise, isn't restricted to any type of person—i hate to break this stunning news, but even if someone isn't straight, this doesn't exclude them from writing something worthy of showing up on what i've personally dubbed "r/straightpeoplewritingsapphics" (and, i should be upfront, some of my early femslash aus suffer from this as well, because i hadn't really ever met any other sapphics, so all i had to go off of was stereotypes around sapphics and sapphic relationships). but i think this stems largely from the fact that fem aus almost never get much traction—so they aren't discussed in wider fanon, so there aren't examinations of dynamics happening the way they do for slash, so writers aren't prompted to critically analyse their depictions, so the depictions tend to be one dimensional or skewed or just badly ooc and feeling unrealistic, et cetera, and into infinity.

however, i think another problem is that, similar to the problem i raised earlier with writing what feels like ocs, is that instead of writing about sapphics, people are writing about the Idea Of Sapphics. i see people go into long internet research rabbitholes to make slash ships make sense for the time period, or culture, read and watch and investigate personal accounts by lgbt men about their lives and relationships, etc—and yet, i don't see people doing the same for female characters as often, let alone sapphics and sapphic relationships for fem aus. and i don't mean that you have to read critical feminist theory and writings about lesbian eroticism if you want to write a 3k oneshot fem au; i just mean that the experiences of sapphics, especially lesbians, are not given importance, even when it comes to portraying us. if you were writing about firefighters, wouldn't you consider how their lives might be different from, say, a doctor? and yet, often, fem aus feel like two (or more) straight women who kiss each other and maybe have sex—hyperfeminine, highly gender conforming, without any connection to other sapphics, sapphic culture, sapphic history, sapphic experiences. you've seen the complaints about two actresses giving the most pursed-lip kiss when they're supposed to be romantically and sexually involved—this is, in my opinion, the fanfic version of that. if you want to portray sapphics and sapphic relationships better—don't make assumptions! read posts or watch videos or read novels or watch films or read manhwa etc etc by and about sapphics and sapphic experiences. if you're not sapphic, it'll help give you a better idea of portraying sapphics; if you are sapphic, you'll probably learn new things and find a greater sense of community! (this is what happened to me—being a lesbian who loves and is friends with and spends time in lesbian spaces is so much better than being an isolated lesbian as a young teen!)

however, i'll leave on a bright note! i've found that, historically, for danmei novels, fem aus tend to be more in character and realistic feeling—hualesbians, for one, and shl fem au fics, for another. i think this has a bit to do with the fact that danmei novel fans tend to be more likely to be sapphic, or at least spend time around sapphics, and fem aus are just more common to start with.

anyway, thank you for the ask!

[fan-caiii]

Okay I can understand a bit of what you mean about toxic ships, but the opposition of murderer x victim is crazy to me. The death games are very excruciating circumstances, so morals aren't going to apply like they do in real life. Like, I don't understand how what happens in a death game scenario makes a ship toxic? Idk. Someone who ships Sayaka x Leon probably isn't shipping them in the context of them trying to murder each other. It's probably because their personalities have an interesting dynamic and because they share hobbies.

What happened in the game was terrible, but that's not the reason most people ship them? Sure Leon murdered Sayaka canon but guess what? Sayaka is dead in canon. Leon is dead in canon. Like, who cares. Everyone in DR2 has murdered people in canon! That doesn't mean people can't be fans of the DR2 cast. You say you didn't tell people to stop having fun with the characters in a non-despair AU, but at the same time you say you don't care that someone is shipping two characters in a non-despair setting and say it's wrong?? It's contradictory. You can't say to keep having silly content about the characters while applying canon-universe morality to an AU.

(Also, the fact that Kaede didn't actually hit Rantaro with the ball doesn't mean she doesn't have to grapple with the belief that she killed him. She thinks she killed Rantaro, and isn't that enough reason to have the ship be toxic? Just because someone accidentally kills (or harms) someone else without ill will doesn't mean the other person isn't hurt by it. If shipping a murderer and their victim is toxic, I'd say that shipping an accidental manslaughterer with their victim is pretty toxic as well)

And yes, shipping real life people and fiction are incredibly different. Would you be a fan of a real life murderer? Would you enjoy a story of a real life death game? No? Then why is it different in fiction? Murder is still a real life problem that is wrong. Death games may not be a real life problem, but the death games in DR end with the killing of innocent students, which is a real life problem. If you're going to look at things with such a morally puritan aspect, nobody should be enjoying Danganronpa at all. Why should we enjoy a story about forcing people to kill each other? I mean, people kill each other in real life.

Besides, fiction gives the opportunity to explore complicated dynamics like having murdered your friend (with agreement) under the threat of starvation, without hurting people in real life. As long as people aren't glorifying abuse or anything, I don't see the problem. If someone ships Toko and Togami in the context where Toko isn't super creepy and a stalker, how is that toxic? It's all fanon, we don't need to adhere strictly to the canon. Fanon is all about interpretations or scenarios of canon. Especially with a series like Danganronpa where so many characters are morally ambiguous. We're all just having fun, and I don't see how being a fan of a ship instead of just a friendship suddenly turns things into being wrong. Just because Komaeda has done so many morally terrible things in canon and has caused a lot of emotional hurt to many characters doesn't mean I think all his fans are glorifying those actions, in the same sense that I don't think Sayaka x Leon shippers are trying to glorify dating your almost-victim-turned-murderer. Nor do I think that being fans of Sayaka and Leon being friends is glorifying being friends with your almost-murderer-turned-victim

CW/TW: Mentions of murder, incest, abuse, assault (physically and sexually) and stalking.

I genuinely hate how badly the DR fandom normalizes obviously toxic/harmful ships. "Oh stop trying to make a ship war-" It's not a ship war. You guys are out here literally shipping family members together and see no problem with it? Kanon and Kuwata, really? Korekiyo and his obviously abusive sister? I've seen some of y'all ship fucking Makoto and Komaru and post it like nothing is wrong with what you just created - it is so mind numbing how stupid some of you DR fans are.

Not to mention Murder x Victim. It's so stupid how much Ibuki/Mikan, Leon/Sayaka, are shipped or Chihiro/Mondo are. "Oh but my ship is in a non-despair setting-" I literally do no care. Your AU isn't canon, none of your guys AU's are - but you know what is canon? The actual universe where that person did kill the other. You AU's don't change anything about what's canon. I will say, with some ships like Nagito/Chiaki and Kaede/Rantaro are acceptable - 1, Chiaki didn't even know what she did kill Nagito and had no intent to ever kill Nagito and same with Kaede; she didn't even kill Rantaro, she was framed.

An honorable mention for this part is Ishimaru/Celestia. Holy fuck that ship pisses me off so much. Celestia didn't kill Ishimaru, I'll give you that, but that's the only good thing - she still planned out how to kill him but just got Hifumi to do so but you wanna know how she got Hifumi on board to do so? Lying about Ishimaru blackmailing her and assaulting her both physically and sexually. Not even that, she basically framed Ishimaru too for stealing Alter Ego.

You can see any of these Murder x Victim as close friends but for the love of god, do not ship them - it's toxic.

Lastly, a toxic ship that pisses me off so much; Toko/Byakuya. How the hell is this ship so popular and normalized? It's not only Stalker x Stalked but also Abuser x Abused. Byakuya literally gets physically sick from Toko just fantasizing about him and he can be miles away. Plus not to mention all the comments she makes about Byakuya to his face which he has shown great discomfort in and has told her to stop multiple times, but does she? No. "Oh but Toko has a mental disorder-" boo fucking hoo. You can't use a mental disorder as an excuse epically since it's literally only Toko doing this - Syo just wants to kill Byakuya and Syo doesn't make comments towards Byakuya like Toko does. And Toko has been told multiple times by Byakuya that he doesn't like it. Also may be wonder "oh, how is it Abuser x Abused? Toko doesn't hurt Togami physically." Yeah, PHYSICALLY. But she does abuse him emotionally - Byakuya would literally lock himself in a bathroom just to get away from her.

I'm just glad that I don't see Junko or Tsumugi ships normalized. They both literally made games to have people kill each other and Junko literally took over the fucking world.

Sorry, I just needed to rant because I've been seeing too many fanarts of toxic ships and it's pissing me off. Also hate me for this, I really don't care - it's the truth.