#at least from vaggie's and lute's perspectives

[vampiric-fangirl]

^ me when i have religious trauma and self-worth issues that revolve around believing i am nothing more than a weapon to be used so i attach myself codependent style to the first person who shows me kindness/gives me attention/makes me feel like i'm worth something and devote myself to becoming perfect for them and supporting them and serving them and making them happy in every way i can for the rest of my existence (if they die, i will feel like i have not only lost everything but also myself, entirely). because that's the only purpose i can ever imagine myself having. because i have religious trauma and self-worth issues.

for better or for worse.

[lucifers-left-tit]

YES like fuck. it's even kind of spelled out in the song. charlie might be the very own princess of hell - a tier second only to Lucifer, mind you - and yet in heaven's eyes, in Sera's eyes, she's as dismissable as the young, naive Emily. Worse, actually, because she's a hellborn, not a seraphim.

(even though charlie and lilith, as the tier below Lucifer, would in fact equate to the seraphim)

It's so important to me that we all understand that hell and heaven in the Hellaverse aren't like two separate territories with equal power in a war that heaven happens to be winning.

Hell is a territory that Heaven rules.

Lucifer may be the king, but that is a position he was given by Heaven, because they have the power and authority to place people in charge of Hell,

And it's all well and good he WANTS to do better as a ruler. That he takes it seriously, or did at one point and/or is coming around to it again in the show, but its a possition with only as much power as Heaven wants to give it, and they want it to have less power than the General of Heaven's army, because Sera listens to Adam before she listens to Lucifer.

Lucifer, an Archangel, doesn't get to make demands of heaven. He doesn't even try. He gets to ask Sera to please stop the genocide of the people he was told to watch over. He gets to concede when they say no. Because heaven just gets to say no, because they get to decide what happens in hell without taking into account the opinions of Lucifer, or the seven sins, or the goetia or anyone in hell.

We all get that right?

That Charlie and the other's defending the hotel wasn't just the citizens of hell going up against an invading army. It only counts an an invading army ans not the occupying force because they don't actually stay there year round

Hell didn't just win their first battle in a war that's been raging for millennia. That was the first time hell organized to fight back against their theocratic dictatatorship- if not ever, than in millenia.

That was act of rebellion.

That was Hell declairing independence.

[crooked-wasteland]

Best and worst character in Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss respectively?

That's extremely difficult to narrow down to the "worst" as I feel every aspect of the main cast in Hazbin and Helluva are the "worst" in different ways. They each do their own unique part in ruining their respective story and its convoluted messages. They are all deeply unlikeable on a human level and those that have points of intrigue or sympathy are ruined by the narrative bending over backwards to justify their worst aspects or they exist solely as style over substance rather than allowing them to truly come to life.

That being said, the best characters are Nifty and Barbie Wire, simply because they both have been ignored by the writers and the plot, as such they have not been given sufficient time to be ruined as of yet.

The worst character in Hazbin is much harder to narrow down.

Is it Charlie for being the least interesting protagonist and being unimportant in her own story?

Is it Vaggie for being functionally cancerous to the plot in how she fails to be the one person who should have realized that Angelic Weapons hurt angels. Hell, her wings get torn off by Lute's bare hands and that building did wonders in causing so much damage to Lute that she's now an amputee. It seems plenty can kill or at the very least grievously injure angels to have the entire plot point Vaggie served to be moot.

Is it Angel Dust for being a purity culture caricature whose entire storyline came down to "It's okay to be gay as long as you do it Christian-ly"?

But no, we can go on and on how the entire cast of Hazbin is a cesspool, but the worst, for both shows, amount to essentially the same person/character. That being Alastor and Stolas.

They may not appear the same on the surface with a veneer of originality between them, but pulling back the curtains reveals that they are fundamentally the same character. Both are self-absorbed, egotistical, self-important abusers who take overt delight in tormenting those around them. They both treat relationships as transactional and both come from a position of power and superiority over the rest of the cast.

Both Stolas and Alastor go so far as to even have their own hype teams within the show. Mimzy in the series and Vaggie in the pilot have essentially the same monologue between them where swaths of time are dedicated to building up this character who, for all intents and purposes, is extremely underwhelming and uninteresting. Whereas Stolas has something similar in AT with Verosika dignifying his delusions and treating him like he ever had a valid relationship with Blitz. The respective narratives are so self indulgent of these two characters and their perspectives that it actively devalues the characters' depth as a whole and the narratives suffer for it.

Not so ironically, both were conceived as antagonists to their respective shows and have somehow monopolized the story with not an ounce of grace.

[theyapper0]

Charlie and Vaggie have a very FUN relationship to me! :)

I think they care for each other SO MUCH, like MORE THAN THEY CARE ABOUT ANYONE ELSE IN THEIR LIVES. I think they are each other's most important person they know and who they love the most like.... EVER!!!

But (in this rewrite specifically) they both have a LOT of flaws... Flaws in their own character that bleeds into their very special, very UNIQUE relationship.

I think their dynamic, despite having SO SO SO much love for each other, comes down to not only how they see others, but more importantly, how they see THEMSELVES.

Let's start with Charlie :)

Charlie is EXTREMELY PRIDEFUL. She's literally the creation of the Sin of Pride/King of Hell, she is literally FULL OF PRIDE and I like to think that it shows in subtle ways! (Or, at least in ways less subtle compared to how she was when she was younger LOL)

I think a good example of this pride is in her tried belief of the Hotel working, despite (before the end of season 1) not having ANY EVIDENCE of it being successful. Ofc part of her believing in the Hotel is because of her persistent optimism but I'm talking more about believing that SHE SPECIFICALLY can do it, that SHE can achieve this, that SHE can change Sinners.

I'm not taking away from the fact that Charlie's intentions are GOOD, they ARE!!! She's trying to be a good person and she does genuinely WANT to help people. But there is this constant air of pride that comes with believing that SHE will be the one to change people.

And then of course, one of the biggest differences between my rewrite Charlie and canon Charlie- she sees everyone in Hell below her. And just like with her pridefulness, it's subtle and isn't noticeable right away and is DEFINITELY not something she would ever outright say (or even be aware of). And like with the pride as well, I believe that she THINKS she DOESN'T think this way anymore. Charlie thinks she's changed from how she used to be, she thinks she's no longer as prideful as she used to be, she thinks she sees everyone and herself as equals. Because that's what good people think!

(granted she has changed, but not enough. She's basically been doing this whole good person thing for only like 10 years at this point (which is NOTHING for an immortal being like herself who's already been living for OVER 9,000 YEARS- she's still got some growing to do LOL)

But Charlie has a very surface level understanding of what makes a good person. Of course, she knows the 10 Commandments, she knows that good people are nice and giving, she knows that good people don't hurt or kill others, she knows that in order to be a good person she couldn't be how she used to be!

Charlie plays the part of a good person, she does everything that is deemed what a 'good person' would do, and she DEFINITELY has well intentions!!! But.... she's still a product of Hell, she's still the Heir to Eternal Damnation and she's still the embodiment of nearly every bad thing about her parents and this awful afterlife.

Vaggie was an Exorcist Angel and from the moment she was born from Heaven, she knew her purpose; to serve and protect. She had to protect Heaven, she had to SERVE Heaven. Vaggie was taught that she was a weapon first, and a person second. (And it didn't help that Lute, her mentor, her parental figure, the person she was CLOSEST TO, encouraged this because she believed this as truth as well)

Vaggie didn't see herself as a person and falling from Heaven's light DID give her the opportunity to change that perspective but.... It didn't.

Vaggie jumped from one salvation, one reason for existing, to another. Charlie became her new Heaven. Vaggie treats Charlie with a complete and utter devotion. She would give her LIFE for Charlie, she would follow her to the ends of Heaven, Earth, Hell and any other realm there is. Charlie is Vaggie's purpose and Vaggie doesn't and doesn't WANT TO exist outside of her.

The only difference between this new devotion is that Charlie returns the obsession wholeheartedly so it makes their relationship look sorta normal LOL

But it ISN'T normal. I said in a previous post that Charlie sees Vaggie as close to an equal as she physically could (this ask is also the biggest reason I'm making this bc THEY MAKE ME GO CRAZY). These two are COMPLETELY, 100% sworn to each other and I cannot stress this enough.

And Charlie likes having someone fight for her I think.

She likes that Vaggie would kill whoever Charlie wished if she told her to. Obviously she likes the companionship but the idea of having someone so devoted to her, who would do ANYTHING she wished... it's also a big plus. (It feeds her pride)

(This applies to Alastor as well. It all comes down to the whole Heir to Hell thing- Charlie subconsciously LIKES having people willing to do her bidding. Both Vaggie and Alastor are MORE than happy to end the lives of basically anyone with their roles of Hotel Manager and Facility Manager respectively (and as in control as Alastor likes to think he is, he is definitely unknowingly playing right into Charlie and feeding her own flames haha) BUT WHATEVER, THIS ISN'T ABOUT HIM!!))

Basically I think that their relationship is sorta unhealthy but I would NOT EVER call it TOXIC, they DO CARE FOR EACH OTHER!! A LOT!! But like I said in the beginning of this post, their own flaws seep into their relationship and muddle things all up.

Vaggie has SUPER low self-worth and can't even see herself as a person if she's not useful to someone and has latched onto Charlie for that support, reassurance, and a sense of familiarity by basically going back to exactly what she did when she was an Exorcist.

And Charlie is extremely prideful and is so convinced that what she's doing is going to help people that she can't see how all the changing she did to be different from how she used to be is all surface level.

They're both the same as they used to be, just with the new addition of now having each other.

Charlie and Vaggie's internal struggles are near complete opposites which is what makes their relationship look so normal.

And they both sorta see the other and this relationship as like a redemption, a way to do good and do good by others and prove that they're good. THEY DO LOVE EACH OTHER, I KNOW I KEEP REPEATING THIS BUT I CAN'T STRESS IT ENOUGH!!

But they DO have some issues that NEED to be worked out (in this rewrite at least :)

[seramilla]

We need Lute’s perspective from when she was running from Emily, losing her eye, plucking her feathers, then the moment she realizes Emily recognizes her.

Lute realizes her defecting to Hell was probably the stupidest thing she's ever done. But with her body going through so many changes, it's impossible to hide the transformation anymore, and she's not thinking straight. Her mind is wracked with so much guilt, and her body consumed with so much pain. She just knows Adam would have probably tossed her down himself, when he found out. She'd spared herself the pain of the Fall. That doesn't help her current predicament, however, or ease the agony she feels as each excruciating day passes in this Heaven-forsaken place.

Like a distressed bird, she'd begun plucking her feathers out of her demon arm almost immediately. They always grow back, fully formed and healthy, almost an hour after they are plucked; she literally cannot tear them out fast enough, before they come back whole once again. That doesn't stop her from trying. That also doesn't stop her from ripping her black wings right out of her back, using her long, serrated tail as leverage, removing them in one fluid, excruciating movement, like she'd done with Vaggie's.

She does the same with her eye, stabbing it out with her spear, until the pain doesn't even register anymore, because she's in so much agony. She's almost numb with pain. The twisted irony of this, though, is that her eye doesn't grow back like her wings and feathers. That part, at least, appears to be permanent. At least some part of her self flagellation is, otherwise what is the point? Now she can experience Hell directly as Vaggie had, with limited vision and absolutely zero depth perception. She almost prefers it this way. She wants to see as little of this place, as possible.

Unfortunately, however, having only one eye doesn't stop her from seeing Emily almost everywhere she goes. At first, she thinks it's an illusion, and almost entertains the idea of ripping out her other eye, if it will spare her the agony of seeing visions of her lost lo--fellow angel. The vision of Emily seems to taunt the former Exorcist every single time she stumbles around a corner.

After a few days, however, Lute realizes these sightings are not an illusion. Her mind isn't creative enough to conjure up images of a happy Emily here in Hell, no matter how much she wants to deny it. She's also not creative enough to conjure all these people Lute sees her with, primarily two other demon women who talk with her like they are old friends. And occasionally Charlie Morningstar herself, if Lute wanders too close to the hotel.

Lute makes an effort not to get too close to the newly rebuilt hotel again, but even so, she still seems Emily once in a while. She never lets Emily see her, though; she stays to the dark corners of streets and alleyways as best she can, watching from afar, and longing just to make her presence known. But she knows she can't do that...not when her body is wracked with so much pain and misery. Not when she looks like this -- a terrible, horrible monster, all twisted and deformed by her own hand. She worries if Emily ever sees her again, she will turn away in disgust, or not recognize her at all. Lute's not sure which is worse.

She wants to be recognizable. She wants to go back to the way things used to be. A friendly rivalry is better than this. So she keeps plucking, fruitlessly, ceaselessly, until the loss of blood leaves her feeling faint and heavy in an alleyway. Eventually, she collapses. She welcomes the feeling of overwhelming darkness that takes over her body. Maybe if she sleeps, she'll never wake up. Emily will never see her this way, and she can just succumb to whatever happens in the after-afterlife.

That thought is comforting. She welcomes it, mentally screams for it, as her tired and battered body finally succumbs to the darkness, and she seemingly passes out of reality entirely, as she thinks she hears someone scream her name.

[mistystarshine]

What do you think of the way Hazbin hotel writes women? To be honest, I'd rather prefer a much more thoughtful analysis from you, not just a generic "at least, it writes women much better than Helluva Boss" that I often times hear.

They're about as well-written as the men, if not moreso by virtue of having more screentime. I'm not going to argue this by talking about what I like about Hazbin's women, since we all know how that will go. Rather...

One of the biggest arguments in favor of Adam returning is how incredibly flat Pentious is. He's comic relief in an awkward cringe way. He has a crush on Cherri. He learned the value of friendship and forgiveness. That's it. He's meant to be part of the main cast, but that's literally all there is to his character. The argument there is that Adam's proved to have more depth, more potential for development going forward, and to be more entertaining to the audience. Narrative reasons to bring Adam back aside, having an actor like Brightman come back for Pentious but nixing Adam would be a mistake from a marketing perspective with how weakly that character is written. I just... Where do people get off saying that Hazbin's women are badly written when Pentious is supposed to be part of the main cast?

Alastor is one dimensional as fuck. I said it. He's strong and mysterious. He's most likely evil, but helping Charlie for unknown reasons. He has an aesthetic. He has some sort of beef with Vox. That is all there is to him. It makes him a goodplot device and narrative tool, but it does not make him a well-developed character. The second someone says that Vaggie is badly written but props Alastor up as great, I accept that they know jack shit about writing, care about sexymen more than actual storytelling, and proceed to disregard everything else they have to say. (Also, "Alastor will get more development in later seasons!" But the women won't because...?)

Angel Dust is genuinely well-developed. But the next-most developmented male characters next to him are... Probably Lucifer and Husk? But. Husk's development was largely relegated to a single scene. Lucifer got one episode. They got a decent amount of depth in, but not enough to make them better than Charlie, Vaggie, or even Lute or Sera. (Emily is one-note as fuck though, I'll give them that. Relegated to the Pentious corner.)

IN SHORT the limited number of episodes and resulting rushed pacing impacted all of the characters, and if you are going to severely criticize the writing of Hazbin's female characters but say that the men are fine, I do not respect you.

[celestialfcllen]

SOMEONE ENABLED ME!

my insane theory: This is God

that orb

is god.

so something i think we dont really take into account is God doesn't seem to be an actual acting force in the universe. he seems to be very much a clockmaker in this universe. he made the clock, but it ticks on its own sorta deal

to me, this orb mind you is only summoned When Passing Judgment

Adam calls on it when he wants to judge a mortal soul.

Adam only vaguely know about Angel Dust the porn star, but through just a single name, the orb can *instantly* determine where he is, and scry on his life from a 3rd person perspective that is impartial and unjudgemental in it's display

The orb itself, is influenced by the emotions around it and also seems to display it's own influence as well

During the song is where it really i think cements this idea

It gets red, it turns to Hell's colors only when Adam is singing about the extermination *BEFORE THE FIRE IS SHOWN* it casts a dark red light onto Adam as if it is DISSAPROVING of his word/action

but as a clockmaker, he doesnt step in. only subtly giving guidance by bathing the light in red

So lets go through the song. When Charlie is talking about Angel and singing about him doing better, the light is white, it's holy, its showing almost like yes this is good

teh light even remains neutral on this shot of angel

showing again its not. really great but the edges are far more unbalanced/suradic as if this scene it's showing is *harmful*

and rght after this, presumably with Angel still being on the screen

ONLY ADAM AND LUTE ARE BATHED IN A RED LIGHT

THE WHOLE SURROUNDING AREA. HAS 0 RED TINT BUT THE TWO OF HTEM AS IF THEY ARE BEING DISSAPROVED OF. THERE'S NO HOLY LIGHT AROUND THEM. N O T H I N G

and again also

its not until they stand on top of it does the entire orb then coat the room in red, it's like. idk to me showing dissaproval for whats going on

its influenced by those who are judging the scene, no one but Adam is happy with it, and he's already shown at least to me the red tint, disappointingly.

and even though the whole song Emily's eyes NEVER are influenced by the red

she is an impartial judge

Adam, lute, they're already tinted fully red, they wear masks, their judgement and view is distorted.......

but we see spesifically then Sera

her eyes reflect the fire. They are tinted red. She is not being approved of.

but Emily's eyes are never tinted, never stray, never falter from their holy light

and instead, when she influences and shows the vision of Sera helping demons

the entire fucking room changes. There's 0 red, there's nothing from Hell or "evil" there when she speaks of compassion and shes bathed in a golden light while Adam still looks to be almost like dulled and in shadow even just compared to Charlie

and then again

when its showing judgement and the execution of demons, which Sera thought was just, it doesn't express anything holy about it....... it paints the room red, again, like it's becoming hell.

to me, i thnk the orb is god, who is an impartial judge who simply displays for the court what they want to pass judgement, but can still express his guidance but cannot actually like. speak. they cant "write it in ink" because well. itsa fucking orb. it can only display and reflect emotions in ways to show it's approval or not.

and also to add onto it

vaggie's reveal literally means fucking jack shit to god. so it's a very neutral view. ther's no intense reds or golds. cuz this to god is meaningless/doesnt matter to him lol

[artofhazbinhotel]

Sorry guys I really don't like the vee family headcannon, it stems from before we knew anything about Velvette, but she is confirmed to be a woman in her 30s and seen as an equal by both of them, her being referred to as the youngest overlord is literal, she's from the 2000s, she's been an overlord for the least amount of time. Also Viziepop said that sinners from an outside perspective might think the gay dad thing but really they're just a queer friendship

Reasons for not liking charlastor is there seems to be a big maturity gap, she's in a loving relationship, and she seemed flattered by the fatherly idea even if Alastor didn't mean it, the amount of NSFW art I've seen grosses me out

I don't see Adam and Lute as a family dynamic, he calls her danger tits, I think she had a crush on him and they both respected each other very much

The reason for not liking Vaggie x Lute is that Carmilla referred to the exercists as Vaggie's sisters, if they're all made the same way they kind of are?

I don't ship anyone with anyone who owns their soul

Cherri Bomb only acknowledged Sir Pentious at the very end

I don't think Radiodust would realistically work

Also I forgot to add but I don't like Adamsapple much or Velvette and Carmilla much either

Ship what you want unless it's a proship though I respect all of you these are just my opinions

[keets-writing-corner]

What are your thoughts on Adam coming back as a sinner?

I'll be honest, I'm really not entirely sure!

there's a lot of unclear lore going on with angelic steel and angelic powers and whether or not death is permanent

outside the show, we were told by creators that only angelic steel/weapons can permanently kill or damage sinners otherwise they just respawn. WITHIN the show we're told that these same weapons can permanently kill/damage angels (they don't tell us that souls are basically immortal unless killed by the weapons), and yeah that semi checks out with vaggie who got her wings RIPPED out instead of cut out like her eye. her wings came back, her eye did not

but, we also don't know if the exorcists are heaven-born angels, or other winners like Adam, although personally I think they were created specifically FOR Adam, since he mentions naming Vaggie himself, so that means whatever is true for Vaggie may not be true for Adam since they are different types of angels

And then there's Lucifer, I heard somewhere that he cannot be killed by angelic steel, but rather only by someone who's more powerful than him, aka, probably the elders (assuming they ARE more powerful than him and not just other seraphim who are like "we're older so we're higher ranking than you") or idk whoever is above the elders. Can Sera or Emily kill him? idk, but Adam can't kill Lucifer in any way. Lucifer won't die to the steel, and he won't die to Adam's anime beam. An anime beam that presumably not only Lucifer can do as well, but allegedly, he could if he wanted to, use it to just nuke all of hell and kill its inhabitants and there's not anyone anyone can do about it (they're so lucky he's not violent by nature)

so I know this is kind of confusing but bare with me, here's what I'm compiling

It's said that Sinners/souls can ONLY die to Angelic Steel

OR, such as Lucifer's case, at the hands of someone more powerful than them (but top of the top angels could be considered outliers)

angels, on 1 for 1, are more powerful than demons

Adam is, in theory, more powerful than Sir Pentious and fired an angel beam at him which vaporized him instantly, but did not kill him with angelic steel, and Sir Pentious lived and got into heaven

There was no doubt in Charlie's mind that her dad could (and almost did) incinerate and permanently kill Adam with a beam and she stopped him (Note: Lucifer uses no weapons)

Adam was stabbed by angelic steel and "died" as far as we know

but here's the confusion for me: if an angelic beam from someone more powerful than you can permanently kill a soul, why didn't Adam's permanently kill Sir Pentious?

Is there something more going on here? Is there a possibility that maybe what is thought of as able to or unable to create permanent soul death actually more complicated than we thought?

Lute clearly believes Adam is dead, she wouldn't have reacted the way she had and she wouldn't have confronted Lilith otherwise. It's unclear whether or not Lute (and to an extent Adam) knew that angelic steel would permanently kill one of them until the start of Hazbin Hotel where an angel was killed. Vaggie didn't know it was possible, but she also wasn't as high ranking as Lute. At the very least LUTE believes Adam is dead based off of the knowledge she currently has, but we have no idea if that knowledge is correct

This could just be a simple case of, as human souls, Adam and Pentious were technically equal rank, ergo his beam couldn't permanently kill Pentious and he should have used angelic steel, for that permakill, which means Adam is 100% and not showing up as a sinner in the future cuz he WAS killed by an angelic weapon

OR

This could be that the circumstances around one's death at the hands of a perma-death weapon influences what happens to them upon dying, which means that there might be more going on to this than we thought, and Adam could very well return as a Sinner

From a writing perspective:

I really don't know what I want to see more of. On the one hand, permanently killing Adam puts more weight on his potential death and the conflict between Heaven and Hell, and definitely puts more animosity between the two sides

on the other hand, Adam coming back as a sinner is some sweet sweet ironic juice and quite frankly, it'd be downright hilarious

BUT all of this being said: I think my tendency will be to believe that Adam is dead. If the writers want us to take perma-death seriously going forward, they are not going to bring back the only two major cast members that died. they will keep one (Pentious) as the special case that nobody understands what happened/as the outlier, and they will keep Adam dead, for weight and to promise to the audience that while Sir Pentious did get to survive, we do have to worry about taking permanent death seriously. Merely showing that Pentious survived is already destroying our faith that characters can be killed permanently in this show given everyone theorizing that Adam will come back as a sinner, and this takes away some of the stakes of the danger

Personally, I will enjoy whatever comes! Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and Adam does come back. Either way, I will have fun, both scenarios are equally interesting to me