#average fujoshi behavior

[louddxd]

°•☆spy vs spy doodles★•°

helloo i recently got into spy vs spy its officially my new interest and GUHH this shit is beautiful.... if u also like spy vs spy LETS TALK!!!! i wanna make new mutuals because i seriously can't contain my silliness about these two freaks.... i love them so much...

[olderthannetfic]

I have really mixed feelings about the small proportion of F/F fiction (original or fanfic), because yeah sure, people have their desires, they should write what they want, I get it. It all works out when I hear it from person to person. But somehow the logic only ever applies in one direction? "There are more male protagonists because men only care about male characters! Women also mostly care about male characters, because that's the majority of characters they get!" And then somehow we also yet kvetch when men write female characters (because it's incorrectly or something, nevermind if women are writing male characters correctly). Why don't we expect gay men to feel compelled only by femslash for the same reasons (but gender swapped) as the lesbian slashers/fujoshi? All of those very rational justifications are applied selectively, "for me for not for thee," and it all only leads to "idk I just don't wanna write femslash", for Reasons. Do we get to call them microaggressions yet?

--

No, you don't get to call other people's fantasy life a microaggression.

That is indeed "for me but not for thee" in the sense that you get to want what you want but other people aren't supposed to follow their id.

Do you also police gay men who spend too much time on drag and obsessing over female divas? That's an actual real world behavior that's somewhat equivalent. It frequently goes unchallenged, at least by progressives, because men are allowed to do whatever they want with chick stuff, while women are "stealing" if they dare to stray into dude stuff.

(God, I've seen so much more policing of drag kings being ~problematic~ for acting out stereotypical gender than policing of drag queens for the same. It's nuts!)

Fujoshi are often queer, but it's absurd to think we're mostly lesbians. We tend to be bi or asexual women with gender stuff going on, though there is a mix of everybody, including lesbians. There are also a lot of AFAB non-women who get lumped in with us. On the rare occasions I find a man willing to admit to being a similar demographic, he usually does like gender play in his hobbies and entertainment. It's just that men face even more pressure than women do to fit into tidy categories. Bi women get told we're whores. Bi men are told they don't exist.

Yes, I know plenty of lesbians who write more m/m than f/f, but in the big picture of all of AO3 or all of fanfic or all of media, they aren't the demographic driving these numbers. They're vastly outnumbered by the bi women, the asexual women, and the straight and gnc women.

The men we should be looking at as an equivalent aren't cis gay men but bicurious soy boys and the like.

Do most of us fujoshi object to equivalent men doing an equivalent thing? I've seen it sometimes, and I agree it's hypocritical. I'd like us to afford men the same ability to play and take on identities in their art. I remember enjoying Ranma fandom back in the day and reading quite a lot of f/f that was probably by men. It had some of that same sense of distance and fantasy that I so enjoy in m/m aimed at fujoshi. (I do consume some by-cis-gay, for-cis-gay content, both m/m and f/f, but it's often too literal and too bound up in specific named identities for my taste.)

On average, the people I see complaining most about men producing f/f material are the same people who think that because I have a clit, I should center my life around women exclusively. In other words, people spouting radfem ideology, perhaps on purpose or perhaps without realizing.

I do agree that some of the ways of expressing a lack of desire to write femslash can get pretty douchey. I want us to move away from some of the less accurate ones like "There are no compelling female characters" because of this.

But the reason for all these jerkass explanations is that women and people perceived as women who like m/m are constantly asked to explain ourselves. These aren't usually microaggressions: they're openly hostile. People get defensive and try to answer with important-sounding reasons about identity and pain because society at large won't accept "I like this" as the true explanation.

Pleasure is never enough of a reason for a woman to do something.

[anewdaywilldawn]

Average fujoshi behavior:

Update from ep 13 on Maomao’s bi Jinshi agenda:

[todayisafridaynight]

Average Dudebro: Nooooooo bring Sayama back so she and Kiryu can get married and settle down and have a nuclear family what no this isn't delusional shipper behavior only the fujoshis at the wiki do that this is totally different hey wait where are you going

Me, An Intellectual: Nooooooo bring Sayama back so she can arrest Ichiban for public indecency

I'm not actually pressed either way 'cause I didn't have any expectations but I do love this statement from Yokoyama in the same article which is what I wanted to talk about lol, it's ice-cold and so overtly against fanservice for its own sake

it ain't even that harsh of a statement bro's being Super Reasonably TBH about it and like. Respect

[nekropsii]

The big failing with the Dancestors is they were made to mock the fanbase's Headcanons and misinterpretations of the trolls, but not all of them, and it's kinda obvious where Hussie started to run out of ideas for them after coming up with Meenah/Kurloz/Aranea

Mmm… That’s a little bit inaccurate, I wouldn’t really word it as “making fun of peoples Headcanons and Misinterpretation,” I’d personally word it more like “Parodying Popular Fanon and Certain Aspects of Online Culture and Fandom.”

I know that seems like a very pedantic thing to point out, and it kind of is, but I think saying “Headcanons and Misinterpretations” is ignoring the fact that some- not all- of it was kind of an accurate parody, lol, and makes it sound like he was ribbing on random, harmless ideas, rather than the actual cesspit of the Homestuck Fandom and Online Culture at the time.

With Kankri, a lot of online Social Justice at the time was, unfortunately, really clueless, really online teens with Conservatism and Good Christian Values far more deeply ingrained in their mentality than they thought it was. Meulin felt like an average Fandom/Fangirl blog, but was also ribbing on just how hard people infantilized Nepeta and boiled her entire personality down into Shipping, and the fact that people basically made Nepeta into a Fujoshi. Cronus’s whole character is a response to the fact that people really, really, really unfairly demonized Eridan, a 13 year old, over the stupidest shit imaginable, and often called him “The Worst Character in Homestuck” by making an Ampora who is actually the worst fucking character in Homestuck. Mituna is the Homestuck fandom that was prevalent on 4Chan’s /co/ board, and they really did just fucking type like that. To be fair, 4Channers really did deserve to get a little bit bullied back then.

I don’t think that the Alpha Trolls’s “biggest failing” was the fact that they were making fun of the Fandom, personally. I’m not really bothered by that, all things considered? Judging by my own experiences at the time in the Homestuck Fandom, and the Internet in general, it was pretty accurate and pretty fair, though I know that this perspective isn’t exactly the popular one.

It’s… A priorities thing, for me. I think the biggest failing with them is that Hussie and his buddies took every opportunity they could to mock any and all Minorities, especially ones that they did not understand. They even went after Systems, man. I’m, like, significantly less concerned with the “Mocking the Fandom” thing than I am the whole “Mocking Systems” thing, and the “Being Severely, Uncomfortably Racist” thing.

Also, Meenah and Aranea are built different because Hussie really likes Vriska- and I mean really, really likes Vriska- and the “Vriska” status applies both to Meenah and Aranea. Meenah in behavior, and Aranea by blood.

[darklightsworld]

Hello, I remember you saying some time ago you didn't like how female characters are portrayed in (current) anime because of how annoying and, maybe, misogynistic their archetypes are. Could you maybe elaborate on this point? I feel similar but can't articulate well and always end up feeling like I'm the one being misogynistic whenever this type of subject comes up in conversation x.x Sorry if this comes up as too personal.

Sorry about the late reply, I have been busy with a conference. Also sorry, because my answer is a bit long and all over the place ^^;

This is a difficult question, especially because nowadays people like to think in black and white, and everything is so extreme, like if they don’t like something, then it must be wrong and eliminated, not to mention the policing of every content based to this – which kills diversity and dismisses personal (and gendered) preferences. What I think is really a personal preference and not exactly a general critique of female characters in anime, especially because there are many factors to consider (genre, age and gender or the target audience, cultural background, etc.), and there’s also the audience with its multiple readings.

Personally I dislike most female character types manga and anime has to give, because I’m not really a person for overly feminine and girly things. The Japanese ideal is very cutesy and it’s the standard in both media for men, women and also real life. Not just looks, there is also the behavior side of things, the cutesy, childish, girly ideal, the passivity, helplessness, pretending to be stupid, etc, and I outright hate it when female characters are treated as stupid, clumsy messes. The question is, though, is this ideal really conservative and an embodiment of the toxic patriarchal system? Actually not necessarily. They definitely originate from the oppressive system, but over the decades girls made these ideals their own, and turned them into a weapon to get what they want. Even in real life, fashion is very feminine for me, always with frills, ribbons, flitters, tons of dresses and skirts, and it’s difficult to find plain clothes without any decoration, not to mention all the cuteness in goods and stuff, but as for the behavior of girls and women, the cutesy ideal seems more like a role to be played at a certain age or for certain purposes, like getting things they want and eventually the man. A woman, who didn’t like this ideal herself defined it as “they had to play the wounded deer”. Actually women, who use this role too much and even among women, are usually hated – this is the infamous burikko.

But no matter how they were in their younger years, married women don’t use this role anymore, and they seamlessly slip into a different identity, one that rules the family and the finances with iron fist (I’m stereotyping) – nothing cutesy, helpless or stupid about that. The Japanese themselves are aware of this cutesy role, both men and women, it’s their version of cunning flirtatiousness, it’s just a very different type of flirtatiousness than in the West. For example, there is currently even a tv show enacting certain situations where this cutesy behavior is used to get the man, and the hosts rate how effective the cutesy behavior was. But while I understand intellectually that these are not necessarily misogynistic stereotypes, I have some kind of a visceral hatred for them. The above tv show makes me outright nauseous. It’s a personal preference, and I don’t think I have to like these character types. But I also don’t think they should be erased from Japanese media, and it would be a mistake trying to push my very independent Western values onto such a different culture, so I rather avoid these characters – which is not easy.

So, what does this mean for anime and manga? Both are largely determined by genres (manga more than anime), genres work with clean-cut character types, tropes, traditions and reader expectation, so there is a reason why female (and male) characters are the way they are in different genres. Male-oriented works will obviously have female characters that appeal to men even if the work doesn’t have in your face fanservice shots (though let’s face it, if it’s anime, most of them do). I don’t like these female character types, I don’t think I have to like them, they are clearly not geared toward me, but I also don’t think they shouldn’t be there in a clearly male-oriented media. Sure, there can be discussions about removing overly exploitive situations, harassment and rape or things like that, but I’m not really against letting men have their fun – because I expect to have that same freedom in media geared toward women. There are occasionally unisex anime, but usually they still serve one or the other demographic in a way, and I don’t think it’s possible to create truly unisex anime that everybody will be satisfied with – fanservice for women will always bother men, and fanservice for men will always bother women.

Shōjo manga is a more difficult question, because somewhere in the 70s romance started to focus on imperfect heroines who still got the best guy, because he loved them regardless of their imperfections (“I love you the way you are”), and since then the genre is full of the stupid, clumsy, indecisive, housewife material archetype without any dreams beyond getting the boy (or very old-school women job dreams), which does not appeal to me either, so I usually avoid most romance shōjo manga, especially the high school variant, and even most josei manga, because I don’t care for the adult version of the same with marriage as the end goal *shrug* Actually it’s not even about these things only, like, I disliked Arte too (though not shōjo manga), despite it trying (and failing) to pose as a feminist social commentary, just because the mc way annoying. Fortunately there are a lot of other types of shōjo manga as well, even with more appealing female characters or the best, without female characters (plus the whole BL scene), so it’s not all that bad, at least in manga, not so much in anime. Interestingly, I’m much more compatible with shōjo manga by fujoshi artists. If I like a shōjo manga, usually the artist ends up coming out as a fujoshi after a while by posting BL fanart on her twitter or drawing outright BL manga – it’s been a pattern XD

Anime is more difficult, but I also admit, that my tastes might be extreme. In Japan there are many female fans who love the cute female characters of male-oriented media. Many women like Love Live, for example, because the girls are, I quote, “so cuuuuuute” – while I am fighting nausea… Yeah, Japan is imbued with cute. It’s especially difficult, because I’m usually not willing to watch a series even if there are such female characters in supporting roles or as a second protagonist with male characters I would love to see (Cop Craft was a recent-ish example). And while I avoid female only casts on principle, sometimes there are surprises. For example, the Yashahime anime has terrible writing, but I don’t hate the three main female characters (even if occasionally the anime has some iffy things to say about femininity).

I also mentioned multiple readings. It is important to note that the audience does not necessarily interpret everything the same, especially if there are cultural differences. One of the most famous examples for this is Sailor Moon, which was the incarnation of girl power and emancipation in the West in the 90s, but it has the same “dumb heroine gets the dream guy” trope, and the same conservative message of getting married and giving birth to children as any average shōjo manga, and the same “so cuuuuute” packaging. It really depends on the audience what they get away with.

All in all there are preferences, genre conventions, cultural differences, so the whole thing is quite difficult. But I don’t think you need to be worried about not liking or being uncomfortable with certain character types. And it would be a stretch to consider tastes like mine, for example, misogynistic. Sure, even in real life I make a wide berth around overly girly or feminine women (among others), but it can’t be helped, you can’t like and be friends with everyone, and I guess they wouldn’t like me or wanting to be my friend either. And that’s fine, and I don’t think it’s misogynistic for me to reject certain types of femininity for myself and to interact with, as long as I don’t want to erase or invalidate them, or deem them as inferior – and I don't. Of course, this is the attitude I expect towards myself as well. Live and let live 🖖

[caspersscareschool]

leo:

dresses like that

acts like that

wants to be rainbow dash

got really enthusiastic with that old lady cosplay like with a full face of makeup and wig and everything & couldn't stop grinning when sunita called her cute

I'm like 90% sure she has a wig collection actually

the glam rock outfit

DIGG poster signed by prairie dog hung up in her room - gender envy

the sleeping eye mask with the little eyelashes

prettiest face on the team (self proclaimed) (minotaur maze)

the part in "late fee" when donnie called her and mikey maidens

"bad hair day" makes way too much sense when you read hair as an allegory for femininity. > sees advertisement of beautiful woman with luscious flowing hair & imagines myself in her place > is excluded from literal gatekept community for lacking arbitrary superficial features > seeks artificial enhancenents > attains euphoria and acceptance > develops impostor syndrome > is ostracized & eventually persecuted for nonconformity despite making every effort above and beyond the average person to remold self to the status quo. i know it's definitely not meant to be that deep but it is to Me. ok

Why with this face

awkward disconnect between her shameless unbridled gluttonous ego and utter lack of self esteem that leads to a constant need for attention

all the behavior that makes her a loser ass of a boy translates into girl currency and actually makes her a swaggy and quite successful young lady

boy crazy in a distinctly teenage girl way - gayboy to fujoshi pipeline

egg swag

donnie:

dresses like that

acts like that

unconventional expression of masculinity that involves being obsessed with chivalry as well as his own visage

has drawn on eyebrows for 9 years

experimental techno enjoyer

uncanny ability to scream exactly like a slasher movie damsel (smart lair)

ability to whimper at a frequency only perceptible to dolphins (lair games)

the part in "down with the sickness" when splinter shredded his, mikey's, and raph's hazmat suits and donnie was the only one to instinctively cover his chest

the dysphoria hoodie if that's your kind of thing

is the only one of them without that little indent underneath the bump on their plastron which might not mean anything But what if it did

obviously has a crush on atomic lass, but also says she was his childhood idol, suggesting that he mistook that infatuation for envy at some point, including modeling the hammer on his tech bō after hers (mascot melee)

sounds extremely like a little girl in the turtle tots short

voice in general is unbelievably womanly and I'm allowed to say this because he sounds exactly like me to the point where it's unnerving. also the semi-reoccurring bit where his voice is pitched up so he sounds like a little mouse

since they're turtles and splinter isn't a biologist i think it's fair to say that he wouldn't have noticed that they weren't all amab when he named them

speaks and behaves exactly like every 14 year old autistic straight tboy thesbian I've had the pleasure of knowing which is an admittedly small sample size but it's still at least 5 people

sorry.

donatello is canonically transmasc and leonardo is canonically transfem if youre an awesome person who's really good at reading into things like me

[olderthannetfic]

"Why I don't write F/F" thread proceeded just as unproductively as I expected. It wasn't about moralizing about the women not writing F/F, it was a question about why personal reasons for avoiding a configuration aren't reflected in opposite directions by other groups. Unlike race, gender has an almost 50/50 split, there's a scale to the proportions not there for other types of identity category. "The femslash police suck" is a factor I can understand. But why wouldn't "personal reasons I just don't feel it towards this configuration" end up an even distribution across the population? The expectation for women to write about women isn't a moral rule, it's that if you allow the logic "men in control of stories write about men (and that's why more mainstream stories center men)", then the flip side is, well, why people clamor for more women behind the camera and in the writers' room. Either accept the logic for both sides or challenge it for both sides. Instead we have the worst of both worlds, we accept it for one side and challenge it for the other. Where's the parallel universe where this imbalance somehow resulted in a different quadrant being the smallest proportion of ships?

--

Why wouldn't "personal reasons" be even? Because the kinds of issues people face based on their demographic aren't.

But I think the larger factor is how socialization affects choice of hobbies and volunteer efforts. Cis men and cis women, on average, go in for different flavors. The dudes tend to be more bothered by the idea of "not getting anything back" for what feels like work. When they do do unpaid labor, it's often the kind that accrues glory and career prospects rather than less showy social ties. Open source coding projects where they can be important, yes. Writing fanfic, no.

Looking up any analysis of volunteering and unpaid work that makes such-and-such a part of society function will get you a lot of discussion of this gendered difference. It's pervasive.

Of course, this is just a broad trend. Plenty of guys do write fanfic, and when they dominate a fanfic space, we see tons of fic focused on the female characters they find attractive, including f/f fic.

And if you're asking about cis gay men specifically... well... again, gendered socialization means that the issues faced by cis lesbians and cis gay men are not equivalent. The reasons and ways that people employ allegory to talk about things "too close to home" will likewise not be exactly the same. Traditional US gay male culture goes in for drag and for an obsession with Hollywood divas and The Golden Girls. Plenty is being mediated through female personas; it's just not translating into fanfic specifically. But most people making "Leave the fujoshi alone" arguments are not thinking about cis gays: they're thinking about people in messier identity categories.

The biggest difference is not behavior but simply that cis men are a small minority on FFN, AO3, and Wattpad, the three big fanfic archives. (Some ancient FFN research found that it was 78% female, and that's the archive known for having more men!) The places with more cis guys are much smaller and don't get talked about as much by most fandom history and fandom meta types from the AO3 side of things.

The reason cis men's taste in favorite characters isn't being "pushed back against" isn't a double standard: it's because:

Cis men simply aren't that relevant to site-wide trends on AO3

and

2. The reverse pattern does happen all the time with vanishingly little m/m and lots of f/f

You sound like you think we'd make this fanfic-specific argument about pro media. In fact, plenty of queer women are open that they produce original f/f but not f/f fanfic or they produce f/f fanworks but not fic. A lot of the "too close to home" arguments are specifically about the kind of id fuel, naked-in-public vibes of AO3-style fanfic. Writing that is less id-driven may not feel that same way. A given woman might have a much easier time writing a mystery novel about a lesbian detective who never gets laid on page than a steamy f/f bodice ripper.

The parallel universe you ask about exists. It's horny imageboards full of fan art of anime girls.

The reason you sound judgmental and are getting "unproductive" responses is that you're phrasing things as though we're refusing to solve a problem. In reality, we're attempting to analyze the situation that exists. It's a descriptive approach.